LINN SONDEK Lp-12 preliminary review (Long)

[Sealed]

I purchased the Lp-12 after 5 years of wanting to get into vinyl. I almost made the grim error of buying a pro-ject table. I saw how these things are cheaply made. Crappy crude bearings, noisy motors and poor reliability. The RPM-9 (top line) might be a match for Regas P2. Maybe.

I initially found the Lp-12 with a Valhalla power supply, Ittok arm and K-18 cart. This unit was made between 1988-1992. It is in the 40,000 serial numbers. It is in excellent physical and working condition. I paid $1200.00. Considering that the Ittok is a $2700 arm, the K-18 moving magnet cart was a $300 cart and the table was $2k I think this was a good deal. I looked for similar offers, but found nothing close to this deal.

http://www.audiotoyshop.co.uk/eBay/whitt2.jpg

The LINN Sondek Lp-12 became a de-facto standard in 1972 when Ivor Tefenbaum introduced it. He showed that suspension was vital, as was the arm. The most basic version blew the then highly regarded turntables out of the water. Since then, it has been modified and improved dozens of times. In the 80’s it fixed what was it’s vague imaging and mid bass bloat problem.

http://www.linn.co.uk/images/product_shot_sondek_lp12.jpg

This table ranges from a couple grand to run, up to $30k+ with mods and upgraded parts. This table really isn’t for vinyl newbies like me. It has a daunting set of adjustments and settings. Messing up any one of them, or choosing the wrong arm/cart combo will net less than amazing results. Once a competent individual sets it up, it’s good to go. It can be set up manually, or via use of an oscilloscope on the leads. Set up out of phase, you look for minimum amplitude on the scope. That will indicate best azimuth alignment. And the arm should be set roughly parallel to the record using a blank Lp for anti-skate adjustments.

I am not a hardcore “LINNIE” I have a tremendous admiration and fondness for the Lp-12. I also like Rega (even the modest P-3) VPI, SME, Michell, and so on. I don’t like pro-ject, Yamaha, Technics or any cheapo tables. IMO, they give vinyl a bad name because they are incapable of mods, and really don’t convey that much detail or music.

Through accidental means, I ended up parting with my K-18. The K-18 equipped deck reminded me a bit of a Rega P-25 with a grado cart. Beautifully musical, but just a touch polite on top, and not quite as revealing or lively as I wanted.

The accident:
I hand cleaned my 50 new Lp’s with a solution of distilled water, alcohol and one pin drop of dishwashing detergent. This got rid of 80% of the dirt and noise. But I must stress to anyone planning on vinyl, get a decent record cleaning machine for $250 and up. These will vacuum dirt out of grooves that hand cleaning doesn’t get. You have NOT listened to your LP properly until you really clean them. The result is the elimination of noise from the music, and increase in fine detail.

I put the Telarc Lp “Tchaikovsky 1812 overture” on. I knew that Telarc had no processing, and unholy powerful transients and bass. I did not suspect that the grooves would be massive 90 degree turns! As was pointed out to me, few carts in the world can even track this monster. Add to that, the massive whomp of my 15” DIY sub, and you get a needle that does Olympic hurdles into the center of the Lp.

Recreation of the event:
“Na nana na nana na na nah nah… BOOOM! POW! FUUUUUUU*********!!!!”I was upset to say the least. :mad: It accelerated my decision to upgrade.
I went back to the dealer, and he gave me a trade in on the K-18. I picked up a high gain, moving coil Ortofon Kontrapunkt A cart.

http://www.ortofon.com/pics/mc_kontrapunkt_a.jpg

Holy cow! This cart is amazing! It has far more detail and speed than the K-18. No bloat. Better attack. Much better treble extension and detail. The imaging is holographic…just jaw-droppingly musical. The K-18 was probably like a partly cloudy day, and 80 degrees. (Polite and warm) where the Ortofon is more like 74 degrees and a clear day. Just a *touch* of warmth, not bloat or excess color.

I know there are more expensive/better/different combos out there. But I feel as though I have attained that magic that is what music is all about. I locks you into your listening chair. It helps erase that tendency to listen to part of a recording and skip through tracks. You are involved.

I can’t tell you what the best is. I can tell you that this deck has opened doors for me, and brought me closer to music than my SCD-1 or and cd’s ever did. I have six recordings on cd and vinyl, and a couple on SACD and vinyl. The vinyl versions are easily the best sounding. Even SACD does not deliver the timbre, tonal shifts and subtle fluidity of the midrange like vinyl does.

I will tell you that vinyl is far from dead. The vinyl market is far bigger and better than the SACD market is. I just paid $10 for Willie Nelson’s Stardust Lp new in it’s wrapper. That LP will raise the hair on the back of your neck, goose bumps included.

Even if the Lp-12 is daunting to you, or too much money, I urge folks to listen to a decent affordable deck like Rega makes. I will have a more direct review later on, but in the meantime I have 40 more Lp’s to listen to.

[Audio Girl]

Thanks for the review. I returned to vinyl approximately 3 years ago with the purchase of a new Rega P3 + Super Bias + RB300. I loved it. Plug & play, excellent construction, great sound for the money. I got the upgrade bug after a few months with the P3 and moved up to a new P25/RB600/Super Elys, and was impressed with the upgrade in sound and quality for the money. Due to unfortunate financial circumstances, I had to sell the P25 (I can't recall how long I owned it, seems like less than a year). Upon resolution of the financial issues, I reentered vinyl with the purchase of a new Linn Sondek LP12 turntable, new Adikt cartridge, (Cirkus came standard as did Trampolin), used Basik tonearm, used Valhalla. Served me well for 18 months; I just recently purchased a refurbished Ittok LVII tonearm which improved the sonics immensely. I can't make any comments about SACD but I am impressed with the quality of sound when compared to my redbook player (Ayre CX-7). I agree with you...vinyl is far from dead...just look at the amount of new releases that continue to enter the market. Enjoy your new toy! Please followup with a review.

Ag

[Sealed]

Thanks for the review. I returned to vinyl approximately 3 years ago with the purchase of a new Rega P3 + Super Bias + RB300. I loved it. Plug & play, excellent construction, great sound for the money. I got the upgrade bug after a few months with the P3 and moved up to a new P25/RB600/Super Elys, and was impressed with the upgrade in sound and quality for the money. Due to unfortunate financial circumstances, I had to sell the P25 (I can't recall how long I owned it, seems like less than a year).

True tales of a male dominated hobby pain:
I think it's very cool we have female audiophiles here. I mean seriously, this is a male dominated hobby. Most guys I know that do this thing, have to temper purchases based upon the wife's approval. They get "almost" what they want or some nearly unacceptable substitute based on visual, not audible quality. They can't get the wife to sit down for a second to listen. My ex-roomies wife saw me listening to my system, and she didn't get it. "What are you listening for..noise?" I wanted to say (no...I spent 15 grand so I could listen from the kitchen!" arrgh!

A friend of mine bought some nice infinity reference speakers in the 80's. He carefully built a system around them. He met a woman, dated/lived to geather for 5 years and got married. Not two weeks after they were married, she decided she didn't like the looks of the big speakers and they had to go. He weepingly sold them for a song. I felt his pain...the spinless...;)

That babble aside, I listened to the RB300 at the Bristol UK show a lot. I thought...wow...this thing rocks! It costs less than a decent cd player, but sounds better than many expensive ones. The P-25 was on close-out, and they were selling them for $950, which includes the RB600 arm and Elys cart. I came this close ---[ ]--- to buying one.

Upon resolution of the financial issues, I reentered vinyl with the purchase of a new Linn Sondek LP12 turntable, new Adikt cartridge, (Cirkus came standard as did Trampolin), used Basik tonearm, used Valhalla. Served me well for 18 months; I just recently purchased a refurbished Ittok LVII tonearm which improved the sonics immensely.

--I really like the Ortofon Kontrapunkt cart. I was just listening to "Danse Macabre" a nice compilation of orchestral works. It was out of this world compared to the K-18. There is no bloat, image drift or excess color at all. I feel the real difference between a decent rega or any other turntable and a well prepped LINN, is flavor, not quality. The LINN communicates music properly. This is a far cry from my 1st cd player in 1986 when everything sounded tinny and harsh. Instead of a few minutes listenability, I can play LP's end to end.

I can't make any comments about SACD but I am impressed with the quality of sound when compared to my redbook player (Ayre CX-7). I agree with you...vinyl is far from dead...just look at the amount of new releases that continue to enter the market. Enjoy your new toy! Please followup with a review.

--I like SACD don't get me wrong. But there are things put on SACD that no one took the time to make sound good in the first place. DSD works if the source isn't crappy. I found that some XRCD's give many SACD's fits, and again, vinyl has the edge in the whole midrange, and overall naturalness.

Ag

This thing gave me an error saying "my message was too short..please lengthen to 5 characters. It hates replies inside quotes I guess.

[maxg]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course but you are so wrong about the Pro-ject tables it just isnt funny - either that or there was something seriously wrong with the Project 9 table you saw.

It is makes like Project and Rega that have saved vinyl from extinction. For less than the cost of a semi reasonable CD player you get vinyl playback and better sonics. They are also about as plug and play a device as exists in vinyl playback today.

My own system (based on a Pro-ject RPM 4 although now very upgraded) has embarrassed a number of very high end tables in its time and has proved impossible to move away from, for me.

I am sure your LP12 is a wonder - but I'd be very happy to put my table up alongside it and I have no doubt you would be more than a little surprized.

[Sealed]

Everyone is entitled to their opinions of course but you are so wrong about the Pro-ject tables it just isnt funny - either that or there was something seriously wrong with the Project 9 table you saw.
--no it worked fine. Project uses cheap bearings...fact. I was at the dealer while he showed me one disassembled. The rpm-6 I heard was noisy, working as normal. Pro-ject looks come first, quality second.

It is makes like Project and Rega that have saved vinyl from extinction. For less than the cost of a semi reasonable CD player you get vinyl playback and better sonics. They are also about as plug and play a device as exists in vinyl playback today.
--Project's best sounds about like a midrange Rega. Rega has superior parts, better reliability, sound and musicality. The rpm-9 is no match for a P-3 in most areas.

My own system (based on a Pro-ject RPM 4 although now very upgraded) has embarrassed a number of very high end tables in its time and has proved impossible to move away from, for me.
--Which high end tables? with what arm, cart and p/s? where was this?

I am sure your LP12 is a wonder - but I'd be very happy to put my table up alongside it and I have no doubt you would be more than a little surprized.
--I have heard the rpm side by side with amany tables since I started looking into vinyl in 1999. Nothing project makes... let me rephrase that in case there is a mis understanding. NOTHING project makes is anywhere within the same solar system as an lp-12. Anyone who thinks so should pound his or her own skull with a claw hammer until that asinine and false assertion goes away. The pro-ject tables are entry-level tables, with a definate limit on upgradeability, detail refinement and quality. Rega, LINN, VPI, Michell, SME, Clearaudio, Basis, Nottingham are all way, way out of Pro-jects league. Comparing a project rpm-4 to an lp-12 is as stupid as drag racing a stock Yugo against a Ferrari Enzo.

[maxg]

Like I said - everyone is entitled to their opinion, however wrong it may be.

The attached picture (hopefully) shows my somewhat modified RPM 4. The arm is the Project 9 (not the standard one shipped with the table - the better version with the improved bearings), fully rewired (through-wired) with Clearaudio sixstream cabling and gold connectors etc. the motor has been removed into a separate enclosure and the cartridge is the Shelter 901 running into an Accoustic Signature Tango Pre-amp.

Not a bad list of upgrades for a non-upgradable table. The match of the modded arm and Shelter is staggeringly good and the removal of the admittedly cheap motor to a safe distance has cut detectable noise from that source down to zero (pre-amp volume on full).

But hell - you are obviously very proud of your Linn and so you should be - just dont waste your time telling me Pro-ject is crap because, in simple terms, I and thousands of other users know better.

Should I now regale you with the stories of the audiophiles who have come and gone with their tales between their legs, of the oh-so confident Accoustic Solid TT salesman who now owns a modded RPM 4 of his own, of the friends who laughed at my table compared to their mighty Clearaudio's who went suddenly quite pensive.....maybe not - what is the point?

[Sealed]

Like I said - everyone is entitled to their opinion, however wrong it may be.

Just like yours!

The attached picture (hopefully) shows my somewhat modified RPM 4. The arm is the Project 9 (not the standard one shipped with the table - the better version with the improved bearings), fully rewired (through-wired) with Clearaudio sixstream cabling and gold connectors etc. the motor has been removed into a separate enclosure and the cartridge is the Shelter 901 running into an Accoustic Signature Tango Pre-amp.

Looks like it was built very crudely by a highschool kid in wood shop. You can put brembo brakes on a yugo, and even KKS turbo. Lets make a silk purse out of a sows ear! to each his own I suppose.

Not a bad list of upgrades for a non-upgradable table. The match of the modded arm and Shelter is staggeringly good and the removal of the admittedly cheap motor to a safe distance has cut detectable noise from that source down to zero (pre-amp volume on full).

You would not have to do that if the table was quality to begin with.

But hell - you are obviously very proud of your Linn and so you should be - just dont waste your time telling me Pro-ject is crap because, in simple terms, I and thousands of other users know better.

They know they got ripped off and decided to upgrade.

Should I now regale you with the stories of the audiophiles who have come and gone with their tales between their legs, of the oh-so confident Accoustic Solid TT salesman who now owns a modded RPM 4 of his own, of the friends who laughed at my table compared to their mighty Clearaudio's who went suddenly quite pensive.....maybe not - what is the point?

Because I'd like to talk to them personally and get thier version of the story. Not yours. i have heard this before. "My homebrew table that I built from crudely assembled parts based upon one of the poorest quality, least engineered turntables blows away mega-buck, scientifically engineered, highly lauded high quality tables. I am not sure wheather to applaud, or laugh.

Again, enjoy your table, but based on the tables I have auditioned in the past 5 years, I'd say you are far more optimistic that realistic. I'd bet a lot of those "dealers" would have a much different story.

[maxg]

One of them should be able to I suppose - he is an internet junkie from what I know.

Give me a few days - but will only one do? Are you going to have me running around after half a dozen thereafter? there is only so far I am prepared to go with this one as it doesnt matter one jot to me what you think you know - I am the one that gets to listen to my system each night and benefit from the experience (fortunately).

[Sealed]

One of them should be able to I suppose - he is an internet junkie from what I know.

Give me a few days - but will only one do? Are you going to have me running around after half a dozen thereafter?

You have the strong opinion. For such encounters I have witnessed, I can tell you right off the top of my head exactly what dealers they were, where, and who it was. That goes for every dealer I have known since 1986.


there is only so far I am prepared to go with this one as it doesnt matter one jot to me what you think you know - I am the one that gets to listen to my system each night and benefit from the experience (fortunately).

Like I said, enjoy it. But I remain totally dubious that it is in the big leagues, much less beats anything beyond a Rega p2. Especially considering your convenient memory lapse as to who and where your table "blew away" the clearaudio.

I am not going to tell your your table does not sound good. But to say it is equal or better to finely engineered gear... I doubt that.

Enjoy your unimpressive looking home DIY. I hope it does sound good. It doesn't look that way. Maybe it's a "sleeper"...or maybe not.

[maxg]

None here - I have fired off an email to one of the guys that was blown away (who owned the Accoustic Solid Machine / RB250 fully modified and the same Shelter 901 mated to the phono stage plug in board on the Accuphase E406 amp) - not the Clearaudio owner but I will try to raise him too if I get to see him over the weekend (he is not as big an internet fan as the first guy).

IF you dont like the look of my DIY TT you would hate the look of my DIY speakers too - but lets not go there - its just what I do to get the sound I want.

Fortunately my wife is less fussy.

[maxg]

Almost forgot:

Some reviews???

http://202.186.86.35/audio/printerfriendly.asp?file=/2002/2/7/audiofile/07project&sec=audiofile
(RPM 4)
http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2003/project_rpm9.shtml
(RPM 9)
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_print.asp?ID=2544
(RPM 6)

Let me know if you want more - needless to say none of them agree with your assessment.

[Sealed]

Almost forgot:

Some reviews???

http://202.186.86.35/audio/printerfriendly.asp?file=/2002/2/7/audiofile/07project&sec=audiofile
(RPM 4)
http://www.audioenz.co.nz/2003/project_rpm9.shtml
(RPM 9)
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/review_print.asp?ID=2544
(RPM 6)

Let me know if you want more - needless to say none of them agree with your assessment.

I missed the TAS , stereophile or other reliable review, I just see two reviews from the pacific rim by vinyl newbies, and this:

"The RPM 6 It might not be quite as detailed and as tonally neutral as the turntable used as reference point...Perhaps it lacks the brilliant finish and the last level of information retrieval of the SME, perhaps it isn't quite as musical as a Linn LP12 or have as much deep bass as a Nottingham Analogue or a VPI."

That doesn't say it's great, or big league, it just says it's good, and no match for high end at all. I paid $1150 for my lp-12, ittok arm and k-18 cart. That's about the same as an RPM 9, and yet is galactically better. So the price references are worthless due to the amount of used LP-12's since 1972. If I was gonna spend a grand, I'd not waste it on a project. The review above could as well be of a Rega P-3/rb300/super elys cart. Not bad, not big league. IOW the RPM 6 is not in the class of high end. It's a good middle of the road player. You can do home mods all day long, but that makes it no more of a pro-ject product than a Nascar racer is a production consumer Chevrolet.

The Hi-fi choice guys were oogling the SME, Michell and Rega products at the Bristol show, not the project line. They say different things in person than in print. You really think the author of the review would want an RPM-6 over a VPI jr? dream on.

[spacedeckman]

Sealed, your sounding like a unauthorized mouthpiece for Linn. Have you seen the Wendy's ads with the guy who's pretending to be their spokesman. Good grief, your posts are nothing more than pomp and propaganda. Much more of this and Ivor is going to want to take you out behind the factory. I've met Ivor, and he doesn't get as wound up about the LP12 as you do, and he can get pretty dang wound up.

Look, the LP12 is a great table, no denying it. They did some really stupid things when they designed it, but, there have been really cool fixes for most of them from other companies. But still, it is a great table. It gets compared a lot because it has been around so long, and is an audiophile staple. Most people into vinyl have experienced one...or more. It isn't because it is the absolute reference, just the familiarity of a good table, and a well known reference point. I'd like another to do some of extremephono's carbon fiber mods...now that looks cool, and makes more sense. Many people are very attached to the LP12, and have been for decades, not weeks. This is where I have my problem with your posts...you haven't even broken your cartridge in yet and you are proclaiming in absolutes. You are beating up on a guy with a Project table because it isn't a Linn, and isn't up to your standards, instead of trying to make the vinyl world a better place for all of us. No, you aren't a Linnie, they are more civilized...I know a few. You are like a Bose guy in a crowd of audiophiles, justifying your position because of the writings (notice I didn't say opinions, they are often different than what they write) they spew out on a monthly basis that supports your buying decision. Personally, I'm amused when they agree with me, and more so when they don't. Keep in mind, they write to pay the rent, and the advertisers in the magazines they write for provide his paycheck.

MaxG, quit egging him on. Your Project is fine, you are happy with it and that's what counts. I feel your annoyance, but you are getting just as shrill. I admire the fact that you have modded your table, and not settled for what came out of the box. It's a good sign that your search continues. You don't need to justify your choice, Sealed hasn't figured that one out either, since nobody here cares why, just what makes you happy with it and what do you have to share with the rest of the class. Not much interested in what other people who I know nothing about think about your table. Other peoples justification for your purchase doesn't carry much weight with me, or many others.

Now be nice to each other, before I have to open up a can of whoop-a$$ on the both of you.

[Sealed]

Sealed, your sounding like a unauthorized mouthpiece for Linn. Have you seen the Wendy's ads with the guy who's pretending to be their spokesman. Good grief, your posts are nothing more than pomp and propaganda. Much more of this and Ivor is going to want to take you out behind the factory. I've met Ivor, and he doesn't get as wound up about the LP12 as you do, and he can get pretty dang wound up.

Now be nice to each other, before I have to open up a can of whoop-a$$ on the both of you.

Grasshopper,
Confucious say...read posts closer. My posts include SME, Michelle, VPI, LINN etc.

The last line in my last post:
"You really think the author of the review would want an RPM-6 over a VPI jr? dream on."

Has nothing to do with LINN. The crux is this:

Last night, when I went back to the shop to pick up my rosewood KEF 104/2 (2nd owner mmmm rosewood) the dealer had a project RPM-6 pulled apart alongside a Townsend rock TT. The RPM- 6 had crude bearings, poor engineering, it was sad. :(

Now , my point for the folks who are thinking I am becoming the "CE" of the LINN Lp-12:

You cannot hotrod a POS like a re-ject...err Pro-ject to equal the sound or quality of a high end deck that has precision parts, bearings, engineering, platters, etc. Hence my YUGO reference. You turbocharge a Yugo with brembo brakes, and koni gas-a-just shocks it's still a Yugo.

That means LINN, Nottinghams SPACEDECK (man) VPI, SME, Michelle, Townsend, or anything else built properly to begin with.

The Re-jects...oops pro-jects sound good...but they are not equal to the big boys. If you replace the arm with a rega RB600, a cart with a grado reference, the platter with a rockport, the power supply with a lingo, the suspension with a Cirkus...then it is no longer a Pro-ject.

And to recap the headlines from this thread: I like many high end decks, not just LINN. And I have 5 years of auditioning high end and comparing. I could be just as happy with a spacedeck, a scout, an orbe or whatever for different reasons because unlike project, they are high end.

There is good, there is great, and there is silk purse from a sows ears pretending it's great.

[maxg]

You re right of course and I will defer further comment. I was, as you say, irritated by a pompous ass that thinks he knows it all and declares this rubbish on a public forum.

But I was enjoying him contradicting himself time and again in the posts...

[Sealed]

You re right of course and I will defer further comment. I was, as you say, irritated by a pompous ass that thinks he knows it all and declares this rubbish on a public forum.

But I was enjoying him contradicting himself time and again in the posts...

That's a lot of shi7 to flow out of your mouth. Someone with a 12 year old-s woodworking ability. I know, you are an 18 year old kid who's dad told him that he could make a world-class turntable out of a cheap POS with junk he piles togeather in his basement.

The only rubbish on this public forum is your pathetically bad looking frankenstein attempt at DIY. If it had looked like an adult put effort into it I would not be laughing at you.

You build crap, from crap, looks like crap, you declare it sounds better than high end decks, and can't remember where you did the a/b to blow away a clearaudio. That sounds like a walking and talking A$$hole to me.

Show you are not a pompous ass by not ever reading, or polluting a thread with my name on it again. There was no reason for you to do it in the first place. Any further of your inane interjections I will simply take as hostile and treat them as such. Go away.

[E-Stat]

Guys, guys, let's all remember that we who listen to vinyl today are very much in the minority. A Band of Brothers. So long as we're not using a Technics SL-1200 with a Stanton nail, we're cool, right?

Lucky lad that I am, I'll be able to sample this gem again next month when I venture to Seacliff to visit with a friend.

rw

[trouble]

You are right; an RPM cannot come close to any turntable coming from the high end class. The RPM 9 is 3.6 out of 5 on the scale. (Scale reported by the highest and most renowned reviewers in Europe) and that is not high end indeed. It is though hi-fi. Dare I say upper end hi-fi. Now, under normal circumstances I would agree with you on what you say about the project tables. I owned one myself, and with a pair of Quad 989's paired with an Accuphase with interconnects that cost more than your car and speaker cables that equate to more than your annual salary, trust me I know what hi-end means. I actually bought the RPM 4 as an entry level tt to be exchanged whenever I could afford to. And trust me, it was changed fast. It was noisy, and the precision of the Accuphase, the Quad's and the wires brought out the worst of any table. I had static and in general it was way too low class compared to what the rest of my system was up to par with.

During the annual ACA (audio club Athens) I held one of the largest if not the largest in Europe meeting at my home, I changed my RPM for an acoustic solid, placed a 901 Shelter, considered to be an incredible cartridge at any price, and with a very modified 250 Rega to carry it.

To see the table go to http://www.acoustic-solid.de/html/edition.html
If you do not know what a quad 989 is then go to www.quad.co.uk

if your interested in finding out what an Accuphase is then ask someone who really knows and if Synergic research doesn't ring a bell, search for it on any search engine and just pick the most expensive and you will find the ones I was using.

Mind you, I hate RPM people, in the sense that I hate anything that is cheap and I hate stingy people. I am always broke, and will always be, because of this uncanny persona I seem to carry with me, but we all have our drawbacks, God knows we all know yours!

I have hated the system that my friend has owned since the day he had bought his first AIWA 6 or so years back. The mother****er is stingy and he has enough cash to buy the darn distributor if he wanted to. We have had more than just a few fights on whether cables made a difference on a system, or whether an arm makes a difference or if an amp is worth the money and so on and so forth. His stinginess was amazing, I still can't get over it sometimes.

As I said, I hate stingy people, and people that claim that a F**king RPM 4 can outplay an acoustic solid worth 50 times the price of the plastic piece of manure he has.

During x-mas of 2003, my buddy went on a trip to somewhere. I stayed at his pad to enjoy the freedom of being with my ***** alone in a crib where I had enough room to be laid in 200 places and positions (sorry you had to find out this way dude!!), and while I was there I dared to turn on that **** looking wood, glued together amateurish cruel to nature turntable, and placed some of the junk that your friend enjoys so much, called classical.

Lets just say that not even my incredibly horny and great looking ***** could turn me on once the orchestra came into action and the drums hit my scala tympani so fine that my hypthothalamus churned at the idea of doing anything but listen to the ugly piece of **** which you so rightly called was playing.

I will not say more.

If you got the balls to put your money where your mouth is, then bring your table to Greece and if you find yours plays better, unless it is modified to the brink of war, then I will pay you the tickets and your expenses. To be sure, we will have to have 5 other critics, pros of course for the contest. If you lose, you lose some cash and 4 days out of your life, not to mention I will feed your tt to the dogs. If you win, you get a free holiday and you get to throw out my table to the same dogs. Fuc* it, you can even throw out the RPM 4, I am a poor bastar* but I can afford an RPM any day. I will even throw in my ***** on top of it all just in case the rest don't make you happy.

Now you have two choices, the first is to actually be a man and not a pu*sy and come over and lets deal with this argument, or secondly you use half a percent more of your damaged cerebral matter and don't judge other peoples mods unless you have the experience yourself to understand what and how things work.

You see, I totally agree with what your saying, its how your playing it that sucks. ( I wonder how long that will take you to fully comprehend?)

This offer, expires in 24 hours, you have that time to set the date, if you do not believe in my offer then I will pay for half the trip myself, from lets say London to Greece and you pay from whatever hick town you come from to London. In other words just in case you didnt't get that, I will pay your trip from London to Athens, Athens-London.

I will not be in town when we have the Olympiad, so you have to pick a date from March to end of May, or June tops.

In hope of seeing you cry when Naomi and Bogart eat your table up, I await your reply. Actually since I do not want to waste any more time on your stupid a*s, just tell our mutual friend to tell me, I will set up the tickets and send them to you first, so you have no excuse on how my end holds up.

Farting in your general direction

Dr.Tony Pothitos

[Sealed]

You are a total a$$hole also. You are less intelligent than a Turk.

I used to know how to say "eat shi7 and die" in Greek. Since I forgot, I'll say it in english.

Eat shi7 and die.

Now piss off and make me a gyro with cucumber sauce.

The Turks are smarter than you. And cleaner.

YOU have two choices: lick my A$$hole ( called "GREEKING") or eat shi7 and die.

My advice to you is lay off the ouzo, you are completly retarded when you are sober, so you shouldn't exacerbate that by drinking.

You should look this up, as you are obviously too stupid to understand any of it.

BTW: I will be at the olympics to laugh my ass off when the Greeks lose at every event as usual.... LMFAO!!!

[Chris]

This thread started off innocent enough - but we won't accept the attacks and vulgarities that were posted above. If you disagree with someone that's fine. If someone says something you don't like, move on. Calling them names like that and telling them to "lick your @#$@#$" will get you banned in a heartbeat. Let's get back to some meaningful debate and discussion please...