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dolt
03-30-2008, 03:37 AM
hi guys, this is my first post here so dont laugh if you think its stupid.

Ive been using a stereo amplifier all my life and i feel its time to upgrade to a AV amplifier system. So ill need to replace all my speakers as well with a speaker package. (main speakers + surround + active subwoofer). According to what ive been told (by shop assistants and neighbors) with regards to the subwoofer output of the AVamplifier, I'll need to use a DVD player with AC3 ouputs in order to activate my subwofer output on the AV amplifier.
Is this true?

the trouble is, i have a many devices that i still wish to use (tape decks and the like) that only have stereo outputs. and I'd still like to have the full effect of my speaker package.

if this is true, is there a decoder module in existance that will split my stereo signal into the respevtive AC3 equivalents, as i dont think it would be wise to feed the stereo signal as is into all the AC3 inputs of the AV amplifier

Mr Peabody
03-30-2008, 01:07 PM
You will most likely hook your DVD player up to your receiver using either HDMI which carries both audio and video, or a digital coaxial or optical audio and some other video connection like component. The signal will go from the DVD digitally and gets decoded inside the receiver. This configuration could vary when getting into Blu-ray but I won't go there as to keep confusion down for the moment.

Your cassette, turntable or even analog CD player hook up will connect as usual with the RCA connector cables no matter the receiver. Whether your subwoofer works with music will depend on the type of bass management your future receiver can provide. Most will have some option for the sub to work with music. Worse case scenario you may have to set the speaker setting inside the receiver to "small" in order to get a signal to the sub. There are also ways to hook a sub up by not using the typical "sub out"/ "LFE". So don't stress over that.

AC3 is just another name for 5.1 surround sound. Unless listening to multichannel SACD or a music DVD this shouldn't even really be a concern and won't effect your other stereo components.

dolt
03-31-2008, 01:30 AM
You will most likely hook your DVD player up to your receiver using either HDMI which carries both audio and video, or a digital coaxial or optical audio and some other video connection like component. The signal will go from the DVD digitally and gets decoded inside the receiver. This configuration could vary when getting into Blu-ray but I won't go there as to keep confusion down for the moment.

Your cassette, turntable or even analog CD player hook up will connect as usual with the RCA connector cables no matter the receiver. Whether your subwoofer works with music will depend on the type of bass management your future receiver can provide. Most will have some option for the sub to work with music. Worse case scenario you may have to set the speaker setting inside the receiver to "small" in order to get a signal to the sub. There are also ways to hook a sub up by not using the typical "sub out"/ "LFE". So don't stress over that.

AC3 is just another name for 5.1 surround sound. Unless listening to multichannel SACD or a music DVD this shouldn't even really be a concern and won't effect your other stereo components.


thanks for the responce.

my current DVD player doesnt have HDMI facilities. i bought it before the technology was released, but it does have a coaxial output. ive got my eye on the marantz sr3001 (currently the greatest value for what im wiling to spend in my country) currently and that dosent seem to have HDMI either.

http://www.musicdirect.com/products/images.php?i=0&p=58253&h=80641

i cant seem to find any descriptions on the features of bass management for the product. but whats bugging me is the fact that the SW preamplifier output is colour coded with the 7.1 channel SW input and all the other speaker channels for that matter. should i be concerned?

heres another silly question.

what i understand by 7.1 channels is that the ratio of the power distribution is equal amoung all channels. so when they say 60W/CH, all of the speaker channels should deliver such.

if i use a stereo input and all 7 channels are powered (ignoring the SW for now) the signal should hopefully be the same on the 7 different channels. (i.e. it doenst go through the DAC's of the reciever, and theres no digital filtering) so instead of using the surround package that have very small speakers connecteced to the "claimed" 60 W surround and centre channels, couldnt i use 7 main speakers? I know it seems a bit over kill, but I currently have 4 sets of main speakers that I use with my stereo amplifier. theres nothing wrong with them and they all have good crossover networks so i get a full range of frequencies from them, and ill be very sad to see them go when i replace my amplifier and have to replace my speakers with a package that looks like it consists of one subwoofer, 2mids and 7tweeters.

what im really asking is that is there any analogue filtering after the ouput section of the amplifier circuit that would prevent driving larger speakers. since you say that the digital to analogue conversion is done in the reciever, i assume that there is digital filtering in the reciever before the DAC stages (particularly with regards to the surround and centre channels), and that this digital filtering would reduce the bass frequency components so that they wont pop the mids and tweeters on the surround channels. i cant seem to find a free schematic online and my shop assistants and neighbors are not qualified enough to answer this.
i know it seems "overkill" but if it really is 60 W/CH then the center and surround speakers that come in the speaker packages seem to be a good waste of watts.

i would also like to learn about these alternative methods of hooking up my subwoofer without using the desingated output. Also, do you have any tricks for passive subs and no external sub amp? (i have a lot of them lying around, but maybe thats asking too much of the AV reciever)

Mr Peabody
03-31-2008, 07:41 PM
thanks for the responce.

my current DVD player doesnt have HDMI facilities. i bought it before the technology was released, but it does have a coaxial output. ive got my eye on the marantz sr3001 (currently the greatest value for what im wiling to spend in my country) currently and that dosent seem to have HDMI either.

http://www.musicdirect.com/products/images.php?i=0&p=58253&h=80641

i cant seem to find any descriptions on the features of bass management for the product. but whats bugging me is the fact that the SW preamplifier output is colour coded with the 7.1 channel SW input and all the other speaker channels for that matter. should i be concerned?

* No, I think what you may be seeing is the 7.1 analog input where there is an input for each channel. This will be handy with SACD or Blu-ray. With just DVD you most likely will not use these and just use 2 cables, one a digital audio cable and the other a video connection, well component video is actually 3 RCA's on each end, but who's counting.

heres another silly question.

what i understand by 7.1 channels is that the ratio of the power distribution is equal amoung all channels. so when they say 60W/CH, all of the speaker channels should deliver such.

If a receiver is 7 channels, 7x60 wpc, there will be 60 watts of amplification for each channel. When watching movies all won't be on at the same time. It depends on what the soundtrack calls for. When listening to stereo, unless using some sound field setting, only the two left/right main channels will be on.

if i use a stereo input and all 7 channels are powered (ignoring the SW for now) the signal should hopefully be the same on the 7 different channels. (i.e. it doenst go through the DAC's of the reciever, and theres no digital filtering) so instead of using the surround package that have very small speakers connecteced to the "claimed" 60 W surround and centre channels, couldnt i use 7 main speakers? I know it seems a bit over kill, but I currently have 4 sets of main speakers that I use with my stereo amplifier. theres nothing wrong with them and they all have good crossover networks so i get a full range of frequencies from them, and ill be very sad to see them go when i replace my amplifier and have to replace my speakers with a package that looks like it consists of one subwoofer, 2mids and 7tweeters.

what im really asking is that is there any analogue filtering after the ouput section of the amplifier circuit that would prevent driving larger speakers. since you say that the digital to analogue conversion is done in the reciever, i assume that there is digital filtering in the reciever before the DAC stages (particularly with regards to the surround and centre channels), and that this digital filtering would reduce the bass frequency components so that they wont pop the mids and tweeters on the surround channels. i cant seem to find a free schematic online and my shop assistants and neighbors are not qualified enough to answer this.
i know it seems "overkill" but if it really is 60 W/CH then the center and surround speakers that come in the speaker packages seem to be a good waste of watts.

* The signal from your DVD will come into the receiver in digital, the DAC decodes it to analog, depending on what it is, will then direct it to the proper channel. If listening to a movie for example the dialog goes to the center channel speaker unless the person speaking is off to one side, a car may start in your right speaker, pass to center, then to left and fade away. Music from CD could be 2 or more channels, depending on how you have your receiver set. Most receivers include some "DSP" or sound field settings, such as "Jazz", "concert hall", etc. There are some that will take a 2 channel signal and matrix it to 5 or more.

* There is no reason you can't use your existing full range speakers. In fact, it's preferred for best sound. Optimum home theater sound should have all the speakers be voice, or timbre, matched. This is usually done by buying from a manufacturer's same series. For instance, if Acme speakers has a series called XYZ and XYZ includes a center and a range of speaker from bookshelf size to full range large floorstanding speakers. A person could buy XYZ center, XYZ floorstanding for front left/right and either the same for rear or opt for a smaller XYZ bookshelf for rear. Mixing up brands and series will cause frequency peaks and valleys, as well the sound will be noticeably different as it passes or plays through them.

i would also like to learn about these alternative methods of hooking up my subwoofer without using the desingated output. Also, do you have any tricks for passive subs and no external sub amp? (i have a lot of them lying around, but maybe thats asking too much of the AV reciever)

* If you use the sub out you would have to have an amp with a passive sub. If you had a crossover you could run passives to do the low bass for your main front channels. I think using passives should probably be put on the back burner for your first set up. Maybe down the road as you learn more about your receiver, and it's ability, then if you'd like you could revisit the idea. Same with alternative sub hook ups. Let's see if you need to do anything different first.

dolt
04-01-2008, 12:15 AM
* If you use the sub out you would have to have an amp with a passive sub. If you had a crossover you could run passives to do the low bass for your main front channels. I think using passives should probably be put on the back burner for your first set up. Maybe down the road as you learn more about your receiver, and it's ability, then if you'd like you could revisit the idea. Same with alternative sub hook ups. Let's see if you need to do anything different first.

well thats what im doing now, and i would have still used crossover networks with my AV reciever... the thing is, im using a system that caters for dual mono. i feature ive grown to like very much over the years. if i do hook up a sub that way, to the main speaker out in the AV reciever, ill need two to get the full range (left and right), since i dont think the AV recievers have a dual/multi mono mode. i do have two sub woofers, and my enclosure design has them obliquly facing echother and both of them pushing air out of a port. i think it works effectivly on my current system because both the speaker diaphrams are moving in and out in phase with each other... with the AV reciever, theyll have a stereo feed hence different signals. i dont know if that will make a difference. but i suspect it will.

i find it strange that im not really seeing any effects of destructive interference with my subs, ive tried them i separate boxes and in pther positions, but this configuration currently yields the best. maybe its constructive interference, but it dosent make sence since they are longitudinal waves propagting towards eachother. well... if its working, dont fix it.

my first set up will however use passives, in my country, the only speaker packages that are affordable and available are warfedale, lg, sony, and jammo. (i havent seen yamaha or kenwood in a while. there are a few others, but theyre all mass produced and not very good) Of this lot, LG, sony and jammo, all have very small speakers and one subwoofer. (small abeit) the only good packages seem to be comming from warfedale. im not very farmiliar with the sound and have not yet gone to audition it. there are some good JBL's around but theyre rare and are only imported once every few years.

a relative of mine recently got a sony 7.1 system with 2 active 12" subs... i thought my stereo system was still better. and the headphone system was not at all impressive, so im scratching sony off my list.

ill be using my system primarily for audio... stereo amplifiers are now extinct in my country, and good quality ones are impossible to find... the thing i dont like about AV recivers is the lack of equalizer setting adjustments(probably not the case with te really high end ones). there are a lot of presets, and you can adjust bass and trebble, but they take very long to get to, and you often have to muck about with the remote to adjust them, i dont see why the manufacturers saw the need to memove these mandatory manual controls. i have a lot of recordings that i would find very difficult to listen to if i wasnt able to adjust the treble and midrange frequencies quickly. and there are too many settings that i use to have them saved on a memory system. so ill be using my graphic equalizer as well.

do you know anything about brands like jebson, dixon and sakyno? AV recievers from these brands are readily available, but the retailers dont allow auditions. they dont seem to have any good websites either. i know sakyno is pretty bad. i have a power amp and its only good for heavy rock music, where the music masks the distortion.

pixelthis
04-01-2008, 12:40 AM
well thats what im doing now, and i would have still used crossover networks with my AV reciever... the thing is, im using a system that caters for dual mono. i feature ive grown to like very much over the years. if i do hook up a sub that way, to the main speaker out in the AV reciever, ill need two to get the full range (left and right), since i dont think the AV recievers have a dual/multi mono mode. i do have two sub woofers, and my enclosure design has them obliquly facing echother and both of them pushing air out of a port. i think it works effectivly on my current system because both the speaker diaphrams are moving in and out in phase with each other... with the AV reciever, theyll have a stereo feed hence different signals. i dont know if that will make a difference. but i suspect it will.

i find it strange that im not really seeing any effects of destructive interference with my subs, ive tried them i separate boxes and in pther positions, but this configuration currently yields the best. maybe its constructive interference, but it dosent make sence since they are longitudinal waves propagting towards eachother. well... if its working, dont fix it.

my first set up will however use passives, in my country, the only speaker packages that are affordable and available are warfedale, lg, sony, and jammo. (i havent seen yamaha or kenwood in a while. there are a few others, but theyre all mass produced and not very good) Of this lot, LG, sony and jammo, all have very small speakers and one subwoofer. (small abeit) the only good packages seem to be comming from warfedale. im not very farmiliar with the sound and have not yet gone to audition it. there are some good JBL's around but theyre rare and are only imported once every few years.

a relative of mine recently got a sony 7.1 system with 2 active 12" subs... i thought my stereo system was still better. and the headphone system was not at all impressive, so im scratching sony off my list.

ill be using my system primarily for audio... stereo amplifiers are now extinct in my country, and good quality ones are impossible to find... the thing i dont like about AV recivers is the lack of equalizer setting adjustments(probably not the case with te really high end ones). there are a lot of presets, and you can adjust bass and trebble, but they take very long to get to, and you often have to muck about with the remote to adjust them, i dont see why the manufacturers saw the need to memove these mandatory manual controls. i have a lot of recordings that i would find very difficult to listen to if i wasnt able to adjust the treble and midrange frequencies quickly. and there are too many settings that i use to have them saved on a memory system. so ill be using my graphic equalizer as well.

do you know anything about brands like jebson, dixon and sakyno? AV recievers from these brands are readily available, but the retailers dont allow auditions. they dont seem to have any good websites either. i know sakyno is pretty bad. i have a power amp and its only good for heavy rock music, where the music masks the distortion.


Never heard of any of those.
NAD , Marantz and quite a few others sell very nice integrated amps, as does cambridge
electronics, all stereo, might want to look into that.
As for AV receivers, you have nothing to worry about.
Most have pro-logic (both movie and music modes) that takes 2 channel and makes it sound like a 5.1 channel dvd.
There are also mono movie modes that puts a mono signal into all five channels.
And five channel stereo that spreads two channel stereo over five channels.
Dont want a sub? Just get full sized speakers and set them all to "large".
But after using all of these I find that just using the front two channels for stereo material is the most pleasing, at least to me.
But theres something out there for EVERYBODY:1:

dolt
04-01-2008, 01:45 AM
Never heard of any of those.
NAD , Marantz and quite a few others sell very nice integrated amps, as does cambridge
electronics, all stereo, might want to look into that.
As for AV receivers, you have nothing to worry about.
Most have pro-logic (both movie and music modes) that takes 2 channel and makes it sound like a 5.1 channel dvd.
There are also mono movie modes that puts a mono signal into all five channels.
And five channel stereo that spreads two channel stereo over five channels.
Dont want a sub? Just get full sized speakers and set them all to "large".
But after using all of these I find that just using the front two channels for stereo material is the most pleasing, at least to me.
But theres something out there for EVERYBODY:1:

i figured.

NAD, cambridge, NAIM, McIntosh, technics are not available in my country. infact, good stereo amplifiers are nolonger available in my country. i have a marantz integrated from the 70's which im very fond of... its not that powerfull, but its still in mint condition and i dont want to use it anymore so that it will stay in that condition. so im considering a marantz AV amplifier. even though ill be using it primaily for audio, i do occasionally watch movies, so id like a fuller experience that stereo dosent really deliver.

i would very much like an active sub, several if it can be arranged, its just that they cost a lot. im too chicken to buy anything online, apart from the appauling exchange rate between my country and USA and UK, its not the shipping im worried about, its my local post office and harbour that will probably cock things up after everythings paid for and taken care of internationally.

but thanks for your suggestions.

Mr Peabody
04-01-2008, 05:47 PM
What country do you live?

If having to use an A/V receiver Marantz is a pretty good choice. I've heard some Jamo that sounded pretty good but they were a bit expensive, I'm not sure how their less expensive packages sound. I haven't heard Wharfdale either.

What brands of speakers do you own? If you could get the front and center to match you'd be alright. And, you may even be better off using your full range speakers opposed to the smaller ones offered even though they match. The larger speakers may sound much better, in regard to frequency response.

dolt
04-02-2008, 11:31 PM
What country do you live?

If having to use an A/V receiver Marantz is a pretty good choice. I've heard some Jamo that sounded pretty good but they were a bit expensive, I'm not sure how their less expensive packages sound. I haven't heard Wharfdale either.

What brands of speakers do you own? If you could get the front and center to match you'd be alright. And, you may even be better off using your full range speakers opposed to the smaller ones offered even though they match. The larger speakers may sound much better, in regard to frequency response.

currently, i own four seas 8" bass drivers (two per box), with a seas dome tweeter and a seas crossover network. there is no serial number on the speaker, and its a good few year older that me.. easliy 20 years older. my dad built them up...

another set my father built up before i was born was a three way set, each box consisting of a tendukan (?) 12" sub woofer with apparently a yamaha 6" mid and a yamaha tweeter, all connected with a yamaha crossover network.

the above are my inherited (more like nationalised) sets

on my own:
i sourced out a pair of aiwa 10" three way speaker sets (no crossover networkn just capaistors on the tweeter and midrage... i know aiwa is not a very reliable brand, but i got surprisingly high fidelity out of it)

i also have the two subwoofers i mentioned in my pervisou post. (kenwood 10"s) i cant remember the serial number, and i the box is sealed with silicon on the outside and i wouldnt be keen on opening it up again anyway.

i also have two JBL 12" subwoofers in a individual boxes (internal sub design). dont know the serial number because i cant open the box without breaking it.
i neighbor owns a small informal business that makes custom speaker boxes. i heard it there, on his sakyno amplifier(?) and naturally assumed it would work on my marantz... to my surprize, my amp didnt have enough power. he builds his speaker boxes so that they cant be opened on purpose so that his clients have to come back to him for a modification, which he charges for, no doubt.... ikept them any way, in the hope that ill one day get a new amplifier.

a similar situation occurred with another set of 12" subs (voxium ??) they were very similar to the pioneer teardrop series (i dont know itf thats what they wer ereally called, but they were really popular in my area in the 90's). i hear them accross the street from my house, and bought them for my car... i was silly and and a lot younger, and i hardly ever used them. theyre now collecting dust.

i get the best sound from the kenwoods(as remote woofers) and the seas and/or aiwas as main speakers... i know... ill probably get better frequency responce with a 5.1 package, but still, the ones that ive listend to dont have the same "warmth", and are almost, if not completely, fatiguing to listen to. (particularly sony)

sorry i couldnt give you anything more usefull, like the sensitivity, or even the power ratings. this is all i can remember offhand from my office.

i may soon be getting my grubby mits on a pair of 12" sansui three ways... its from the same friend that sold me the kenwoods. he bought the sansuis as a replacement, and didnt know what to do with the kenwoods. so he sold them to me. he died a few years ago, and his family is emmigrating, so i may soon be getting those speakers.

the acoustics section in my department closed down 2 years ago and they have a pair of KEF coda III's collecting dust. i heard them and they sound superb running on a B model equivalent of my marantz. im hoping to buy it off the university.

its comforting to hear your praise of marantz... ive always been a fan of their stereo equipment, but have recently heard some bad publicity. do you know anything about the marantz sr3001? im considering buying it, im using it primarily for audio, and music dvd,s not really for movies.

Mr Peabody
04-03-2008, 03:53 PM
I have to be honest, you are really better off buying some new speakers if you find some you like. The KEF would be nice if you could get them.

I'm not familiar with the 3001 but several posters seem to like the 5001 really well for the money.

dolt
04-03-2008, 11:09 PM
I have to be honest, you are really better off buying some new speakers if you find some you like. The KEF would be nice if you could get them.

I'm not familiar with the 3001 but several posters seem to like the 5001 really well for the money.

haha... i know... i get that a lot... maybe one day....

thanks your your advice though. will check out the 5001, i hope is available here. ill soon audition some wharfdale's since they seem to offer the best prices.

i forgot to answer part of your question.

im from south africa.

thanks once again for putting up with my silly questions.