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L.J.
03-18-2008, 10:51 AM
Seems to be alot of confusion going on with BR. I've noticed that questions are popping up almost daily since the war ended, so I thought I'd get some basic info together in one place to help out. Links will be provided for those that want to dig a little deeper. PLEASE correct me if ANY info is incorrect. So here goes......

Bluray Profiles Explained:

The basic Profile 1.0 (also known as the Grace Period Profile) available on all Blu-ray models released before November 1st, 2007 includes neither a secondary video decoder nor an internet connection.

Profile 1.1 (also called the Final Standard Profile or "Bonus View") adds decoders for secondary PiP video and audio, plus 256 MB of local storage capability.

Finally, Profile 2.0 (or "BD-Live") includes those secondary video and audio decoders, a larger 1 GB of local storage capability, and an internet connection.

Bluray Profiles Link (http://dostudio.netblender.com/wikipapers/wiki_BDprofiles.asp)

Bluray HD Audio Explained:

PCM
What it is: A PCM track is an exact replication of the studio master, encoded on disc without compression. The benefit to this is that it maintains the purity of the source without any loss of fidelity that may come from compression. The downside is that an uncompressed audio track takes up a tremendous amount of disc space, which may (especially on single-layer BD25 discs) negatively affect the video quality of the movie. While the Blu-ray format is capable of utilizing PCM audio up to 24-bit resolution, studios may choose to encode at 16-bit resolution instead, depending on the bit depth of the original source or concerns about conserving bandwidth (downsampling a 24-bit master to 16 bits is technically not the same thing as compression).
Level of support: All Blu-ray disc players are required to support PCM audio.
Examples of discs that use it: Almost all discs from Sony and Disney, as well as selected titles from Lionsgate and other studios.

Dolby TrueHD
What it is: Dolby TrueHD is a "lossless" compression codec. Although it is compressed to take up less disc space than a PCM track, once decoded it is bit-for-bit identical to the studio master (at either 16-bit or 24-bit resolution, at the discretion of the studio). It may help to think of it like a ZIP file that holds a PCM track. Once you unZIP the file, you get a 100% identical copy of the original PCM, without compromising any sound quality.
Level of support: TrueHD is an optional format on Blu-ray. And since TrueHD is not built in a core+extension configuration, Blu-ray discs that contain a TrueHD track are also required to contain a standard Dolby Digital AC-3 track for compatibility with players that don't support TrueHD.
Examples of discs that use it: 'Ghost Rider', 'The Fifth Element' (Remastered).

DTS-HD Master Audio
What it is: Another lossless audio codec similar to Dolby TrueHD. The difference between the two is that DTS-HD MA is built in a core+extension configuration (just like DTS-HD HR). Although a DTS-HD MA track takes up more disc space than a TrueHD track, it does not require a secondary standard track for backwards compatibility. Since both DTS-HD MA and TrueHD are lossless, they are both 100% identical in quality to the studio master, and hence identical in quality to each other.
Level of support: Like DTS-HD HR, Master Audio is optional on the Blu-ray format. If the player does not support DTS-HD MA, it can extract the standard DTS core.
Examples of discs that use it: Almost all titles from Fox Home Entertainment.

HD Audio Explained Link (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1064)

HD Audio...How To Get It:

Toslink or Coaxial SPDIF: Don't even think about it. Your gonna get standard DD or DTS, and only 2 channels of PCM. You will get a higher bitrate though. 640 kbps for DD & 1.5 mbps for DTS. Some improvement but not HD Audio.

Multi-channel analog: If your A/V receiver is equipped with 5.1 or 7.1 external audio inputs, the selection of an optical player equipped with 5.1- or 7.1-channel line-level outputs will provide full-bandwidth reproduction of the audio signal originating from your HD player. Connection Example: Denon 3800 BR player to Denon 3805 AVR.

http://www.dolby.com/images/consumer/technology/trueHD/fig3.jpg

HDMI v1.1 or up: A/V processors and receivers are being equipped with HDMI connections, capable of transporting up to eight channels of 24-bit/96 kHz PCM audio content. If your A/V receiver is equipped with this type of next-generation connection, you should look for a similarly furnished next-generation optical media player. By this method of connection, the mixed PCM signal is transported from the HD player to your A/V receiver, where digital signal processing and bass management can be easily effected. Connection Example: Sony PS3 to Yamaha 2700 AVR. ;) Note: Some AVR's do not accept audio via HDMI or may have other limitations. Do RESEARCH before purchasing. Also I believe HDMI v1.0 is capable of passing 8 channels of MC PCM, but I stick with saying v1.1 to be on the safe side.

http://www.dolby.com/images/consumer/technology/trueHD/fig2.jpg

HDMI v1.3: I'm only gonna discuss the audio side of things. Plenty of info can be found on Lip Sync, Deep Color & the other "benefits" 1.3 is supposed to provide.

Basically, IMO, I see no reason to run out and purchase a new AVR & player to enjoy BR's HD audio. Those who own a AVR with MC analog inputs or HDMI v1.1 or up simply need to purchase a player that is capable of decoding these new formats. Players that can decode ALL HD audio formats are becoming available so now we can focus on quality of players vs. which players can do what. An example would be the Panasonic BD50 (http://www.blu-ray.com/players/players.php?id=17&show=specs). According to the specs, this player will decode all HD audio formats and output over MC analog. 7.1 may be a concern to some though, if your current AVR has only 5.1 mc inputs and is unable to apply post processing to audio via mc analog.

Now if one is in the market for a new AVR and plans on getting a BR player as well, HDMI 1.3 is probably gonna be all that's available soon anyway. In this case, one may decide to go with v1.3 in both player & AVR. If this is the case, simply connect the player and receiver with an HDMI cable. The HD bit stream will pass through the player and HDMI cable to be decoded by the AV receiver. Both player and AV receiver will need to be equipped with new HDMI Version 1.3 outputs and inputs. Connection Example: Panasonic BD50 to Onkyo 805 AVR.

http://www.dtsonline.com/media/2007/DTS_5.jpg

Note on Advanced Authoring: It was believed that HDMI 1.3 would only allow the new codecs to be transmitted in their native bitstream, but only if they were authored in 'Basic' mode (no interactivity). If the soundtrack was authored in Advanced mode, then it cannot be transmitted in undecoded form; decoding in the player is mandatory because of live mixing. This is noted by Dolby:" it will be necessary to select HD discs in which the content maker has permitted the core 5.1 or 7.1 audio bitstreams to bypass the player’s mixing process and be sent directly to the digital outputs of the player."

Well this is not the case, some players have received a firmware upgrade that adds a feature called "Direct Digital Audio Mode." This function serves as a workaround for the Advanced mode bitstream limitation. When activated, the player will transmit the raw audio bitstreams for any of the new high-resolution sound formats to a receiver for decoding, even on Advanced discs. However, it will only transmit the movie soundtrack itself, not any additional content such as menu beeps or Picture-in-Picture audio.

Doldy TrueHD Link (http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_1.html)
Is HDMI 1.3 Really Necessary Link (http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ/High-Def_FAQ:_Is_HDMI_1.3_Really_Necessary/853)
DTS MA Link (http://www.dtsonline.com/dts-hd/dtshd-master-audio-with-new-receiver.php)

More Useful Links
AVRs that support HDMI Audio Multichannel PCM (MPCM) and/or HBR Bitstream Decoders (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12293638&postcount=1)
SSP & Pre/Pros that support HDMI Audio MPCM or HBR Decoders (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12233966&postcount=1)
5.1/7.1 PCM, HDMI, and DSP - An Explaination of the Future-Proof receiver (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=8690911&postcount=1)
LFE, subwoofers and interconnects explained (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=8855640&postcount=1)
List of current/upcoming players & Features (http://www.blu-ray.com/players/)

Rich-n-Texas
03-18-2008, 11:38 AM
Nice job L.J. Some of your "connection examples" leave a bit to be desired :rolleyes: but I like the inclusion of links to the various tech sites, manufacturer sites...etc.

Nevermind the greenies, some chocolate chip cookies (2) are on their way!

f0rge
03-18-2008, 11:51 AM
nice write-up!

now i just wish trueHD or dtsMA weren't optional, sure 1080p is nice, but i'd like to have these as well on every disk.

it's also worth nothing that 1.0 (and possibly 1.1) players CANNOT be updated to 2.0 with the exception of the PS3. however the PS3 does not currently support dtsMA.

even though we know who won the war, you're best holding off until the fall when the 2.0 players are released before jumping on the bandwagon.

BadAssJazz
03-18-2008, 12:18 PM
Thanks a million for this. Just what I needed. Now I know that I can get by with either a Denon 2808 or the Onkyo 805 as a pre/pro for now until the separates market (esp. the prices) are within range.

f0rge
03-18-2008, 12:21 PM
oh i forgot to mention, if you don't care about bonus content/features (i don't) then any of the players will be fine for straight playback, but i would still wait.

GMichael
03-18-2008, 01:01 PM
Great job LJ.
Who's the man?
LJ's the man!

L.J.
03-18-2008, 01:27 PM
Nice job L.J. Some of your "connection examples" leave a bit to be desired :rolleyes: but I like the inclusion of links to the various tech sites, manufacturer sites...etc.

Nevermind the greenies, some chocolate chip cookies (2) are on their way!

Oh, forgot to mention that 3800.....I thought the mention of my 2700 was enough :p

L.J.
03-18-2008, 01:33 PM
nice write-up!

now i just wish trueHD or dtsMA weren't optional, sure 1080p is nice, but i'd like to have these as well on every disk.

it's also worth nothing that 1.0 (and possibly 1.1) players CANNOT be updated to 2.0 with the exception of the PS3. however the PS3 does not currently support dtsMA.

even though we know who won the war, you're best holding off until the fall when the 2.0 players are released before jumping on the bandwagon.

I agree. DTSMA & TrueHD should be a givien for every player. Would make things alot easier.

I didn't mention the profile limitations in depth because it's explained in the link. I have about 45 BR and haven't watched any additional content on any of 'em.

Oh, not really a write up, just a very good copy/paste job with my thoughts tied in.

Thanks for your thoughts though.

kexodusc
03-18-2008, 04:29 PM
Thanks for the info LJ.

LJ, I haven't bought a BluRay title yet...what audio formats are most common? DTS-HD MA, Dolby TrueHD, etc? Why would they ever put the PCM track on these things? And why would they ever support two lossless formats of equal quality?

L.J.
03-18-2008, 05:25 PM
Thanks for the info LJ.

LJ, I haven't bought a BluRay title yet...what audio formats are most common? DTS-HD MA, Dolby TrueHD, etc? Why would they ever put the PCM track on these things? And why would they ever support two lossless formats of equal quality?

It's actually been all over the place. Well, I guess certain studios have their favorites. Disney has been strictly PCM but just dropped their first TrueHD title Enchanted. Fox has been going with DTSMA. I haven't seen PCM lately though. Mostly TrueHD & DTSMA. Sony has been doing PCM and Warner has some TrueHD.

I haven't seen any DD+ tracks in awhile so I'm happy about that.

Not sure why they go with PCM. Plenty of space available I guess. The more I've read on it the more I realize TrueHD or DTSMA would do just as good leaving more space. I'm thinking that we'll see less PCM once more space is needed for special content and all that other garbage.

kexodusc
04-17-2008, 07:53 AM
Supplementary question to this good thread:

How many BR's have 7.1 soundtracks on them? Is it still mostly 5.1 or is there movement to push 7.1?

A lot of friends/family/co-workers have been asking me about BluRay lately - I don't own a BluRay player yet and I haven't been paying much attention. I often tell people to consider the PS3 for a first player, but those of us with older a/v receivers that don't have HDMI connections will be limited to older audio formats (no hi-rez) by using a PS3. Alternatively, you could buy a player with all the latest decoders and analog outputs...

I had intended to do just that this year to get an extra year or two out of my receiver but using multi-channel analog outputs from the player usually results in limited processing/setting functions in the a/v receiver or processor. So looks like I'm gonna have to upgrade the receiver anyway and jump onboard the HDMI train, I'm just delaying the inevitable. Might as well do it now.

L.J.
04-17-2008, 09:04 AM
Supplementary question to this good thread:

How many BR's have 7.1 soundtracks on them? Is it still mostly 5.1 or is there movement to push 7.1?

A lot of friends/family/co-workers have been asking me about BluRay lately - I don't own a BluRay player yet and I haven't been paying much attention. I often tell people to consider the PS3 for a first player, but those of us with older a/v receivers that don't have HDMI connections will be limited to older audio formats (no hi-rez) by using a PS3. Alternatively, you could buy a player with all the latest decoders and analog outputs...

I had intended to do just that this year to get an extra year or two out of my receiver but using multi-channel analog outputs from the player usually results in limited processing/setting functions in the a/v receiver or processor. So looks like I'm gonna have to upgrade the receiver anyway and jump onboard the HDMI train, I'm just delaying the inevitable. Might as well do it now.

Mostly 5.1. Doing a search of 7.1 at BR.com (http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/search.php?keyword=&studioid=&videocodec=&disc=&yearfrom=&yearto=&audio=7.1&subtitles=&submit=Search&action=search) pulls up about 30 7.1 titles.

There's also a thread which provides useful info on titles. It's hard to navigate through but a quick scan pretty much confirms only a handful of titles with 7.1 track.

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=3338

I've purchased a few new releases recently and all are 5.1. New Line & Lionsgate seems to be favoring 7.1.

SirT may have more info on future studio plans. I think Sleeping Beauty will have a 7.1 track. Not sure if Disney will continue going that route.

PS3 is just hard to beat for the price if you plan on getting into HDMI anytime soon. Depends how long you can go without the new audio formats I guess. I used the PS3 with my 2805 for a good while before I eventually went with HDMI. I didn't get the full benefits of BR immediately but some advantages were still there. Nice pic plus standard DD/DTS at a higher bitrate. We just got BD 2.0 & DTSMA making it a fully loaded player for a very decent price. Throw in the continued support, music streaming and gaming and it's just hard to beat.

Personally, I'd only get a stand alone with analog outs if I paid alot for my AVR. The Panny BD50 looks good on paper. Not sure how well the BD30 stacked up. You'd still be limited to 5.1 though since it only has 5.1 analog output. The new Samsung doesn't decode DTSMA. The Sony 550 that's due this fall has 7.1 analog out if you can wait that long. And we still haven't had any reviews on any of these new players, so I think this would push the wait back a little further. Only other option would be the Denon 3800 for a pretty $$$$$.

kexodusc
04-17-2008, 10:20 AM
That's just it...I don't plan on owning my receiver much longer - the introduction of a projector and the new BR player to my existing video sources makes HDMI pretty attractive, if not necessary. Too many audio and video cables back there as is.
And the multi-media capabilities of the PS3 are more desirable to me than any perceived video advantages a stand alone player might have.

But I've already made up my mind. I was more curious as to what the current environment was like concerning 7.1. There's a lot of misinformation out there. One guy I know told me a store insisted that 7.1 was mandatory for BluRay's new hi-rez formats...as in they wouldn't work with a 5.1 receiver. Go figure.

L.J.
04-17-2008, 11:02 AM
That's just it...I don't plan on owning my receiver much longer - the introduction of a projector and the new BR player to my existing video sources makes HDMI pretty attractive, if not necessary. Too many audio and video cables back there as is.
And the multi-media capabilities of the PS3 are more desirable to me than any perceived video advantages a stand alone player might have.

But I've already made up my mind. I was more curious as to what the current environment was like concerning 7.1. There's a lot of misinformation out there. One guy I know told me a store insisted that 7.1 was mandatory for BluRay's new hi-rez formats...as in they wouldn't work with a 5.1 receiver. Go figure.

Oh, I was kinda just throwing that out there for anyone to read.

I have a 5.1 setup so I barely pay attention to the 7.1 thing. Maybe it will end up being like DTS ES on DVD.

kexodusc
04-17-2008, 11:04 AM
Oh, I was kinda just throwing that out there for anyone to read.

I have a 5.1 setup so I barely pay attention to the 7.1 thing. Maybe it will end up being like DTS ES on DVD.
What, there's a BluRay version of Gladiator coming? Cool, that'll double the distribution of DTS ES.

captjamo
04-18-2008, 10:48 AM
Thank you L.J. Cleared up a lot of stuff for me. I'll take a years subscription to your excellent new HT tech magazine. Then if I see you still deliver fabulous unbiased info and you havn't sold out to the likes of Sony and Samsung, etc. after a year I'll take a 3 yr--hehe