denon 3808

[f0rge]

i just got back from auditionning some receivers, and all i have to say is wow.

the setup was pretty sophisticated, he was able to use the same source dvd player, and the same speakers, using a fancy panel on the wall to swich receivers.

i was originally going in there to look at the yamaha rx-v1800, seemed like a good bang for the buck receiver. he didnt have any on display, but he did have the rx-v3800 set up in a room with a denon 2808, a denon 3808 and an arcam (forget the model, was way too much $$$).

as soon as i said i wanted yamaha, the salesman (someone i regularly deal with) said i had to listen to the new denons because i'd be blown away. like most good salesmen, he left the room to let me listen. first things first, make sure all the processing is off, apples to apples stereo is what i wanted. did some more listening with my buddy switching the receivers.

well he was right, the rxv-3800 and 2808 sounded nice, real nice. then we threw on the 3808, all i can wow. the step up was very noticable. the 3808's soundstage was so much larger, more airy, more effortless, it was just that much better.

i'm pretty amazed, i went in there with a budget, looking for the rx-v1800, i left wanting that 3808, but the extra $350 is going to be tough to swallow.

[RoadRunner6]

Just a couple comments.

Did you know when your friend was playing the 3808? It sounds like it from your post...." then we threw on the 3808." Most people subconsciously expect the more expensive receiver to sound better especially when he already said it would blow you away (smart salesman).

Are you sure the receivers were all driving the speakers at the exact same volume? This is extremely important and very difficult to exactly match the volume with the switching equipment in most dealer's showrooms. Tests have shown that people can detect as small a difference as 0.1 db in sound level. The louder receiver will almost always sound better.

A suggestion for the future is when switching receivers, have your friend turn the volume way down just before switching and then turning the volume back up just after switching. Do this every switch and then reverse the order in which he plays the receivers without you knowing which one is playing. Do you still hear a difference? Can you now tell which one is the 3808?

You state, "the step up was very noticable. the 3808's soundstage was so much larger, more airy, more effortless, it was just that much better."

If I was doing the switching I would have tried to "blind" test you. I would have played the 2808 and 3808 but telling you they were the 2808 and RX-V3800 and then put on the real RX-V3800 saying that it was the 3808. I would be sure to adjust the volume as I mentioned above. Sorry, but I'll put $1.00 (gentlemen's bet) that I can fool you and you could not correctly identify the actual 3808.

Not trying to dis your ears, just some food for thought. Have your friend try this if you can do a second visit. It might save you $350 for what might be a better overall receiver. I would really be interested in any feedback on this.

RR6


Some interesting reading below:

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx

[f0rge]

Just a couple comments.

Did you know when your friend was playing the 3808? It sounds like it from your post...." then we threw on the 3808." Most people subconsciously expect the more expensive receiver to sound better especially when he already said it would blow you away (smart salesman).

yeah i knew, but we also played the Arcam, which also sounded better than the others




Are you sure the receivers were all driving the speakers at the exact same volume? This is extremely important and very difficult to exactly match the volume with the switching equipment in most dealer's showrooms. Tests have shown that people can detect as small a difference as 0.1 db in sound level. The louder receiver will almost always sound better.

we tried our best, it wasnt exactly easy, but we tried.



A suggestion for the future is when switching receivers, have your friend turn the volume way down just before switching and then turning the volume back up just after switching. Do this every switch and then reverse the order in which he plays the receivers without you knowing which one is playing. Do you still hear a difference? Can you now tell which one is the 3808?

You state, "the step up was very noticable. the 3808's soundstage was so much larger, more airy, more effortless, it was just that much better."

If I was doing the switching I would have tried to "blind" test you. I would have played the 2808 and 3808 but telling you they were the 2808 and RX-V3800 and then put on the real RX-V3800 saying that it was the 3808. I would be sure to adjust the volume as I mentioned above. Sorry, but I'll put $1.00 (gentlemen's bet) that I can fool you and you could not correctly identify the actual 3808.

good suggestion, i'll be sure to try that



Not trying to dis your ears, just some food for thought. Have your friend try this if you can do a second visit. It might save you $350 for what might be a better overall receiver. I would really be interested in any feedback on this.


no worries, it'll be easy to back, and now that you've said that i want to test it

[blackraven]

The 3000 series Denon's have much better power amps then the 2000 series. Just and FYI.

[pixelthis]

The most important aspect of you system will be speakers.
In spite of what "audiophiles" tell you there just isnt that much difference in amps.
So why pay more for "nice" amps?
TWO WORDS, POWER SUPPLY.
A robust power supply will keep your amp going through difficult passages.
This is why I PREFER "HIGH CURRENT" amps like on Onkyo, nad, and a few other
receivers.
YAMAHAS are nice but have had a few (very few) QC problems the past few years.
I have had denon also and you wont go wrong with either one, but its always seemed like Denon rolls off the highs somewhat (i've had two):1:

[f0rge]

The most important aspect of you system will be speakers.
In spite of what "audiophiles" tell you there just isnt that much difference in amps.
So why pay more for "nice" amps?
TWO WORDS, POWER SUPPLY.
A robust power supply will keep your amp going through difficult passages.
This is why I PREFER "HIGH CURRENT" amps like on Onkyo, nad, and a few other
receivers.
YAMAHAS are nice but have had a few (very few) QC problems the past few years.
I have had denon also and you wont go wrong with either one, but its always seemed like Denon rolls off the highs somewhat (i've had two):1:

i looked at onkyo, but the only dealers around these parts are big box stores (the brick, 2001audio video) and they either don't carry what i was looking for (the 805 or 875) or their prices are absurd ($800 for a 605??? $2400 for a 905????). similar problem with NAD, except instead it's "high fashion" boutique shops in rich neighborhoods, where they are used to having people pay MSRP.

[RoadRunner6]

A little interesting reading here:

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx

There are a number of reasons to buy a good quality receiver but sound difference is not one of them for conventional speakers in normal circumstances.

RR6

[f0rge]

A little interesting reading here:

http://www.hometheaterfocus.com/receivers/amplifier-sound-quality.aspx

There are a number of reasons to buy a good quality receiver but sound difference is not one of them for conventional speakers in normal circumstances.

RR6

i don't doubt that you would have trouble picking the "better" amp in a double blind test, but between the 2 most closely related amps, the 2808 and the 3808 you could definitely hear a difference. which was better is subjective, but they definitely sounded different. saying the receiver/amp has no effect on the sound of a system is somewhat misleading.

that article is either poorly written or intentionally deceptive for the purpose of proving a point. it suggests that all amps sound the same, which was not what they were actually testing. they were trying to get people to identify certain amps, which i will admit is nearly impossible. that doesn't mean that different amps don't sound different and that some of the listeners didn't prefer the sound of one amp to another.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Good point f0rge. I find it hard to believe that you can't hear a difference between one manufacturers components and another's.

[BadAssJazz]

Did you know when your friend was playing the 3808?

Some good comments Road, but having tested both the 2808 and the 3808 in my home under the same conditions, you can trust that the OP was right. The 3808 does sound distinctively better (at least to these ears) than the 2808.

Having said that, I agree that blind tests are a must, especially when you're trying to compare similar tier components, albeit from different manufacturers.

[RoadRunner6]

....."Good point f0rge. I find it hard to believe that you can't hear a difference between one manufacturers components and another's.".....

"hard to believe" ..... This is exactly what the 25 experts thought before they took this test. It is still what they thought when they had a listening session when they KNEW what amp was used. However, in the actual test, when the amps were A/B blind, they found out how fallible their audiophile ears were. The original test included much more info. The results here are the high points.

Later when they took the blind section of the test they could tell the difference with only slightly better than chance/guessing/50% (only 3 out of 25 scored 60-63%, all the others scored lower). Only 54% of the time the experts could tell the Pioneer from the $12,000 amps, this is almost exactly even with chance. Read the article carefully. They were able to switch back and forth many times and still were not able to tell the difference. This is different than what f0rge thought the article said. It is not that they liked the sound of one better than the other or visa versa or even heard slight differences or were trying to identify certain amps; it is that they could not hear any detectable sound difference and know which was amp A and which was amp B most of the time during the test.

The point of all of this is to expose the pre-conceived psychological influence of the mind when the identity of the amp is known in a listening situation. The tests did not include exotic speakers types or severe loads. This type of objective testing has confirmed the same conclusions with regards to amps, speaker wire and audio cables.

These people were only able to distinguish the sound of different amps in very few cases. This was a carefully set up test with all other factors being equal. People make many comments about the sound of amps. They listen to amps in different dealers showrooms, in their own homes, in friend's homes, many times with different speakers and various components, wires, cables and room accoustics. They end up making definitive statements about how one receiver/amp sounds versus another. I don't find these statements valid in most cases. F0rge's comparisons were much more controlled than most people's. However, I am still curious to hear his opinion and feedback if he is able to re-do the listening in a blind situation.

RR6