Dispersion?

[TwinDad]

Greetings All,

This is what I am trying to say I want in a loudspeaker: DISPERSION!!!

The following excerpt is from Home Electronic Ideas Winter 2008 magazine article:

"SOUNDSTAGE and IMAGING are important concepts in Hi-Fi. DISPERSION refers to how well a loudspeaker can maintain a consistent sound throughout the room. Since we don't always sit in the "sweet spot" of a room, speakers with wide dispersion and a quality soundstage are ideal. Soundstage refers to how clearly and convincingly it reproduces a sense of space encoded on the recording.

SOUNDSTAGE and IMAGING are often used interchangeably, IMAGING actually relates how precisely sounds occur or emanate within a sounstage.

Picture a concert hall: This is your soundstage. Now imagine players standing on stage playing their instruments. These are your images."

I did not write the explanations above myself. They were paraphrased from the magazine mentioned earlier.

I, Eddie, am looking for loudspeakers known for their DISPERSION ability as a top priority.

Thanks,

Eddie

[GMichael]

I agree that dispersion is very important for HT. Not everyone will be sitting in the one perfect spot. Same goes for music for parties, or just plain doing other things in your house. But if you plan to do a lot of serious listening in a favorite chair, then some of the more "beaming" speakers such as Magnepans can be more desirable. You have to think about what you will be doing the most of.

[TwinDad]

GMichael,

Thanks for being the first to respond!

I love Maggies and only wish my wife felt the same way. They are just "too monolithic" in her own words. It is the family room and I yield to her taste since she is supportive of new purchase.

Thanks,

Eddie

[Feanor]

Greetings All,

This is what I am trying to say I want in a loudspeaker: DISPERSION!!!
...

Eddie

Dispersion is most often a good thing. The famous speaker researcher and pundit, Floyd Toole, has strongly advocated for disperison as a key factor in good loudspkear design.

Nevertheless a down-side of wide dispersion is that you will often have to treat our room for "early" reflections from the side walls, ceiling, and floor.

I'm glad my wife doesn't have a problem with my Magneplanars. My setup, in the living room, looks like this (http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=3370&size=big&cat=500&ppuser=199052).

[GMichael]

What kind of budget are you looking at? There are many good speakers at each level. Here are the ones I picked out. At $2k they have some of the great planner sound with less of the drawback. And they are so beautiful I can't think of any wife who would protest.

http://av123.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=18&Itemid=37

[topspeed]

Dispersion is most often a good thing. The famous speaker researcher and pundit, Floyd Toole, has strongly advocated for disperison as a key factor in good loudspkear design.

Nevertheless a down-side of wide dispersion is that you will often have to treat our room for "early" reflections from the side walls, ceiling, and floor.
This is exactly what I was thinking.

Be careful with what you ask for, twindad. Omnipolar designs from B&O and Mirage have fantastic dispersion, but at the expense if imaging. None of the Mirage speakers I've heard imaged well and the only B&O model with an Acoustic Lens that did was the Beo5, but it has a built in room eq and a price tag of $20k. Bose is all about dispersion and direct/reflecting designs...and we all know how well that turned out...

Proper dispersion with good imaging is more art than science. Wave guides, radial tweeters, horn loaded enclosure, cabinet design, etc. all contribute to dispersion characteristics. The xover can have a dramatic effect, although I can't tell you why. There are no hard and fast rules for what makes a speaker work well. For example, my B&W's image exceptionally well but don't have the off-axis response (i.e. huge sweet spot) of my Von Schweikerts, which image just as well. Why? My guess is the crossover, but who knows?

Take some time and audition a ton of speakers. If it's for a HT, move your listening seat around and spend time listening from various positions. That's about the only way you'll be able to determine what's best for you.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

[JohnMichael]

The Shahinian Obelisk and Bose 901's are wide dispersion speakers. Opera's New Callas and some of their other speakers have multiple tweeters to aid in dispersion. MBL makes some wonderful speakers that radiate 360 degrees. You may want to look for an Ohm speaker with the Walsh driver. As I think of more I will add them.

[TwinDad]

Feanor,

Awesome pic!!! What model is that speaker? That - believe it or not - looks like the color of our walls. It would blend perfectly. Could I do a surround sound setup with smaller rear speakers? What center channel speaker? The Maggies we saw that day were black in color and I think the "contrast" added to the visual negativity from my wife. The speakers were too tall against a cream background at the dealership.

Other posters recommended Maggies - have to re-read old thread - now I'm totally interested again. I will show my wife pic when she gets home later tonight.

Pretty cool. Thanks!

Eddie

[TwinDad]

GMichael,

Beautiful, simply beautiful. I am going to print out every review of the Mini Strata and read them tonight after I log off PC. Excellent link and suggestion.

Gratefully,

Eddie

[TwinDad]

topspeed,

It's always something it seems. There is no one PERFECT speaker that will meet all my expectations within budget.

Budget for entire system had reached $20K - then, my wife told me to tone it down. Now I'm back to the drawing board and want to start with speakers which - to me - is the most important part of the system. Budget for new A/V HT system is now only $12K to $15K including taxes, delivery, cables, accessories. Knock off $4K for HDTV. $1300 for Furniture BDI Meriden Model 8127. So, for arguments sake, that leaves $6K to $9K for balance of system. What percent should be allocated for speakers?

Thanks,

Eddie

[TwinDad]

JohnMichael,

That's a great amount of recommendations you supplied. Thanks!!! However, I think they may be out of the ballpark financially.

Still have to factor in A/V Receiver, SACD Multichannel/CD/CDR Player, BluRay player (in summer when newer models are released), Harmony One Remote Control and SVS PB Ultra 13 Subwoofer.

Old thread got too high end. Wife said no to pre/pro setup. I really have to stick to a budget.

How do you like your Marantz SACD player?

Thanks,

Eddie

[Feanor]

Feanor,

Awesome pic!!! What model is that speaker? That - believe it or not - looks like the color of our walls. It would blend perfectly. Could I do a surround sound setup with smaller rear speakers? What center channel speaker? ....

Pretty cool. Thanks!

Eddie

Those are Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's. They are placed about 3' from the walls though that might not be obvious in the picture. Although I don't have room, you might be able to use Magneplanar MMG's for rears -- as I recall, the MMG's also come in beige.

This is my stereo setup and there is no center channel. (The black thing on the floor is my PSB Subsonic 5 subwoofer.)

[JohnMichael]

JohnMichael,

That's a great amount of recommendations you supplied. Thanks!!! However, I think they may be out of the ballpark financially.

Still have to factor in A/V Receiver, SACD Multichannel/CD/CDR Player, BluRay player (in summer when newer models are released), Harmony One Remote Control and SVS PB Ultra 13 Subwoofer.

Old thread got too high end. Wife said no to pre/pro setup. I really have to stick to a budget.

How do you like your Marantz SACD player?

Thanks,

Eddie


Lovin' the Marantz. Very natural non fatiguing. Cd playback is very good and surprisingly close to sacd playback. I now listen to silver discs more than vinyl. Vinyl is still great but cd/sacd is more convenient and now sounds very good.

[TwinDad]

Thanks Guys!

I'm going to purchase the Marantz if I can find some great reviews from magazine articles to show my wife.

Eddie

[JohnMichael]

Thanks Guys!

I'm going to purchase the Marantz if I can find some great reviews from magazine articles to show my wife.

Eddie



Stereophile rated the Marantz Class A and is the least expensive Class A player. The Stereophile recommended components is in this recent issue.

[bfalls]

I agree that dispersion is very important for HT. Not everyone will be sitting in the one perfect spot. Same goes for music for parties, or just plain doing other things in your house. But if you plan to do a lot of serious listening in a favorite chair, then some of the more "beaming" speakers such as Magnepans can be more desirable. You have to think about what you will be doing the most of.

Wide dispesion is not good for home theater. HT requires controlled dispersion so sound from one speaker doesn't overlap the dispersion of another "blurring" the intended image. A wide dispersion speaker such as a Bose 901 which bounces sound off side and rear walls would make a terrible HT speaker.

Many speakers intended for side speakers in a modern HT are intended to be wide dispersion, as were rear speakers in an older Dolby Pro Logic system. They provide diffuse (non-focused) ambient sound which envelopes you bringing you into the movie.

DPL rear speakers were mono, so no side to side rear directivity was possible. You could sense front to back movement and limited side to side movement depending on how much the three front speakers projected into the room, but never FL to RR or FR to RL. This came with Dolby Digital's five discrete channels. A 5.1 system need five discrete controlled dispersion channels to provide a three dimensional well imaged soundstage.

[GMichael]

topspeed,

It's always something it seems. There is no one PERFECT speaker that will meet all my expectations within budget.

Budget for entire system had reached $20K - then, my wife told me to tone it down. Now I'm back to the drawing board and want to start with speakers which - to me - is the most important part of the system. Budget for new A/V HT system is now only $12K to $15K including taxes, delivery, cables, accessories. Knock off $4K for HDTV. $1300 for Furniture BDI Meriden Model 8127. So, for arguments sake, that leaves $6K to $9K for balance of system. What percent should be allocated for speakers?

Thanks,

Eddie

With that budget, you should be able to put together a system much nicer than mine. I've always felt that at least half of your cash should be put towards your speakers. And you should pick those out before you pick out your electronics. You may find that you fall in love with a set of speakers that need more power than the amp you just paid for can give.:mad2: Best advice I can think of is to take your time. Check out as many options as you can. Listen twice, purchase once.
And there sure are a lot of options to explore. Besides, this is the best part. Court your speakers slowly. Fall in love before you make that commitment. Make sure it's not just lust. :ihih:

[GMichael]

Wide dispesion is not good for home theater. HT requires controlled dispersion so sound from one speaker doesn't overlap the dispersion of another "blurring" the intended image. A wide dispersion speaker such as a Bose 901 which bounces sound off side and rear walls would make a terrible HT speaker.

Many speakers intended for side speakers in a modern HT are intended to be wide dispersion, as were rear speakers in an older Dolby Pro Logic system. They provide diffuse (non-focused) ambient sound which envelopes you bringing you into the movie.

DPL rear speakers were mono, so no side to side rear directivity was possible. You could sense front to back movement and limited side to side movement depending on how much the three front speakers projected into the room, but never FL to RR or FR to RL. This came with Dolby Digital's five discrete channels. A 5.1 system need five discrete controlled dispersion channels to provide a three dimensional well imaged soundstage.

I can not argue with your points. But a large sweet spot is good for HT. I toe my speakers in to help with that, but at a loss of some 2 channel imaging. It's a trade off.

[TwinDad]

Thanks everyone!

Funny emoticons in post GMichael.

Besides the Mini Strata's and Maggies. Any other recommendations? I want a list of what to audition so I can find the dealerships and arrange listening/audition time. I don't want to be at the mercy of a dealership and walk in blindly like I did 3 weeks ago.

Thanks,

Eddie

[filecat13]

Thanks everyone!

Funny emoticons in post GMichael.

Besides the Mini Strata's and Maggies. Any other recommendations? I want a list of what to audition so I can find the dealerships and arrange listening/audition time. I don't want to be at the mercy of a dealership and walk in blindly like I did 3 weeks ago.

Thanks,

Eddie


If we knew your general location, it might be easier to offer suggestions. Some speakers are easier to audition than others depending on where you live and how far you are willing to travel.

[RoadRunner6]

It might be a matter of symantics but it seems to me there is a some confusion here between "wide dispersion" of drivers and speaker designs such as omnipolar, bipolar, dipolar, direct-reflecting, etc. Some of these speaker designs give unnaturally wide soundstages. I don't like it when Ella sounds like she is 6 feet wide (alright, no wise cracks).

Wide dispersion (or good off axis response) to me means mid and high drivers that project their sound in a reasonably wide pattern rather than beaming their sound in a narrow directional pattern. There of course is a great deal of variance here between different brands and models. Radiation of sound to the sides or rear due to the design of the speaker such as bipolar or angled enclosures is another subject. My personal choice for this type of speaker is only for the surround speakers.

I feel the ideal forward radiating dynamic speaker has a fairly wide off axis dispersion pattern. This allows for a reasonable width of cohesive soundstage for different seating positions while still having the advantage of fairly precise imaging. Obviously there is some trade off here. As mentioned above it might be advantageous to have a fairly narrow dispersion pattern if you always sit in one sweet spot.

When I audition a speaker I play a single front speaker (turn off all others and the sub). I listen to different types of music with varying degrees of mid and high content. I start listening at a normal distance from the exact center of the speaker and slowly move off axis to see how quickly the sound quality changes. I think it is very important to have a fairly wide off axis frequency response without significant falloff.

I personally own Axiom Audio speakers and find that their dispersion pattern is quite wide and ideal for my listening habits. If wide dispersion is important to you I would audition carefully for this characteristic.

RR6

[TwinDad]

filecat13 - Southern Westchester Count, NY - about 25 minutes from NYC with no traffic. Ha-Ha.

RR6 - Okay - you nailed it. That is what I am hoping to put into words. I want MAIN speakers that have great off-axis dispersion w/o making Ella 6' wide. You sound like an audio engineer.
I wish I could express myself as well as you in terms of what I want in speakers.

99% of the time when I am alone I ;isten to 2 channel stereo. Now I'll have the option of adding the sub. The HT speaker setup will be for SACD musicand mostly for my family to enjoy DVD's, TV, etc. I am not into TV at all. I'd rather listen to music - or actually play my instruments.

Put the bulk of the budget into speakers - right? Electronics second. TV last. Is that the route to take?

Eddie

[TwinDad]

Greetings,

I have 48 hours left to make a decision to purchase a slightly used pair of Acoustic Zen Adagios Floorstanders for $2700 before the deal falls through and they get listed on Audiogon for $3800 I believe.

Should I buy them and then slowly build up a surround sound speaker system by buying the center channel and rear surrounds from dealers as additional cash becomes available. I have to buy the Adagio Jr.'s and they are very expensive speakers for the center and rears.

Start off with all the electronics for a HT - just use mains for a while - and then come Christmas fill out the rest of the system for true HT.

Sound like a plan?

Please visit the Acoustic Zen site and read the reviews on the Adagios. At one point several years ago they were Stereophile Class A listed but have not been re-tested in a long time.

Thanks.

Eddie

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I can not argue with your points. But a large sweet spot is good for HT. I toe my speakers in to help with that, but at a loss of some 2 channel imaging. It's a trade off.

Do you realize that toeing in your speakers help to minimize side wall reflections? You are aiming the output away from the walls with this practice. See G, your a G-enius even when you don't know it.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Wide dispesion is not good for home theater. HT requires controlled dispersion so sound from one speaker doesn't overlap the dispersion of another "blurring" the intended image. A wide dispersion speaker such as a Bose 901 which bounces sound off side and rear walls would make a terrible HT speaker.

Many speakers intended for side speakers in a modern HT are intended to be wide dispersion, as were rear speakers in an older Dolby Pro Logic system. They provide diffuse (non-focused) ambient sound which envelopes you bringing you into the movie.

DPL rear speakers were mono, so no side to side rear directivity was possible. You could sense front to back movement and limited side to side movement depending on how much the three front speakers projected into the room, but never FL to RR or FR to RL. This came with Dolby Digital's five discrete channels. A 5.1 system need five discrete controlled dispersion channels to provide a three dimensional well imaged soundstage.

Bfalls,
I good re-recording engineer can give perceived direction to even DPL mono channels. Using delay, a little output to the front channels, and a little pscho-acoustical ear tricks, you can make it seem like there is left to right movement within a mono rear channel environment.

[TwinDad]

Greetings,

I have 48 hours left to make a decision to purchase a slightly used pair of Acoustic Zen Adagios Floorstanders for $2700 before the deal falls through and they get listed on Audiogon for $3800 I believe.

Should I buy them and then slowly build up a surround sound speaker system by buying the center channel and rear surrounds from dealers as additional cash becomes available. I have to buy the Adagio Jr.'s and they are very expensive speakers for the center and rears.

Start off with all the electronics for a HT - just use mains for a while - and then come Christmas fill out the rest of the system for true HT.

Sound like a plan?

Please visit the Acoustic Zen site and read the reviews on the Adagios. At one point several years ago they were Stereophile Class A listed but have not been re-tested in a long time.

Thanks.

Eddie

[TwinDad]

Sorry, Double post. My fault.

[GMichael]

Do you realize that toeing in your speakers help to minimize side wall reflections? You are aiming the output away from the walls with this practice. See G, your a G-enius even when you don't know it.

I did, but thanks for pointing it out for everyone to see. How will I ever get my head threw the door way now?:blush2:

[bobsticks]

Greetings,

Acoustic Zen Adagios Floorstanders ...stuff...

Sound like a plan?

Sounds like a great plan. The Zens are an extremely well regarded speaker...to the point where you'll need to give careful consideration as to the amps you use. NAD may not get the most out of 'em.

[flippo]

let me say I have Mirage and I love the sound and they do image well in my opinion and are great for home theater. Look at the OMD 15 (crutchfield sells them for 1200$ apiece)
They have a large soundstage and have a very good presence to them.

[TwinDad]

Greetings All!

It gives me great pleasure to announce the purchase of the Speaker portion of my Home Theater setup and in the process obliterating any semblance of a budget. My wife just told me to "Go for it!" and I did.

I purchased the following:

(2) Acoustic Zen Adagio Floor Standing Loudspeakers
(1) Acoustic Zen Adagio Jr. Center Channel Speaker
(2) Acoustic Zen Adagio Jr. Surround Speakers
(2) 8' Lengths of Acoustic Zen Hologram Speaker Wire for Mains
(1) 4' Length of Acoustic Zen Satori Speaker Wire for Center Channel
(2) Custom made stands for Rear Surrounds
(2) 45' Lengths of Acoustic Zen Shiloh III Speaker Wire for Rear Surrounds

The Adagios & Adagio Jrs. are rated at 89 dB / 6 Ohms.

How much power / amplification do I need to run these optimally?

Thanks,

Eddie

[TwinDad]

Hello,

I canceled the Adagio order. Cables too expensive. Lots of other reasons.

One crucial factor - I have twin 7 year old boys that are extremely active. Always rough-housing, play fighting, real fighting. Stand mounted speakers are out of the question at this point. They would crash into them - repeatedly. Trust me on this.

I need 4 floorstanders and a CC all from the same company that excel at music first and HT second. Further, SVS PB ULTRA 13 SUBWOOFER is too big. My wife said it is the size of an end table in Living Room. Need a smaller musical sub that does well with HT too.

Thanks,

Eddie

P.S. Auditioned B&W - did not care for them.