Integrated vs. separates

[Bigmoney]

Just wondering.....I know separates are considered to be better than an integrated amp.... how much better are they tho.......How much would one have to spend on an integrated amp to overachieve a rotel1080/1070 amp and preamp combo which retails for 1500. Can equal or better sound be achieved for an integrated of equal or lesser cost?

[Feanor]

Just wondering.....I know separates are considered to be better than an integrated amp.... how much better are they tho.......How much would one have to spend on an integrated amp to overachieve a rotel1080/1070 amp and preamp combo which retails for 1500. Can equal or better sound be achieved for an integrated of equal or lesser cost?

That is, yes, equal or better sound can be achieved with and integrated and this typically the case at a given price level, i.e. integrated$ = preamp$+poweramp$.

A couple of reasons for separates are:

Flexibility. That is, the ability to change one component rather than both.
Size. Of course an integrated is smaller than separates of the same power output. But as power goes up it sized does too, to the point where an integrated become just large too big be manageable.Monoblocks, (single channel power amps), are just more separation. Monoblocks are, separately, lighter than a comparable stereo amp; also they tend to stay cooler and can be placed closer to the speakers which many consider a good thing.

[Brett A]

Two other advantages to integrated:

One cabinet means more of the final cost can go into the electronics (proportional to the cost savings of only building one chassis). In theory, this can result in more performance for the same cost as separates, or equal performance for less money.
The pre-amp and amp are internally hard-wired, eliminating a set of ICs. Some integrated, like mine however, still have a little pair of external ICs between the sections.

As for size, my 200wpc dual mono Shanling integrated is massive indeed. A foot and a half wide, nearly two feet deep, eight inches tall and almost 70 pounds. Not for everyone.

[Bigmoney]

Good info...........I guess my reason for asking is that I would consider an integrated to save space. I currently only have two shelves on my stand. One occupied by my source, and the other my pre amp. My amp just lies on some mdf on the floor between my speakers. If I was to get an integrated It would save me a shelf and power outlet. Are there any integrateds less than 800 new or used than would outperform or perform nearly as well as my 1080/70 combo, for my b and w 602's. Also I wonder if I am going overkill on my components given the price of my speakers (600). Do you think spending over twice as much as my speakers cost, 1500 dollars, is going overkill and that I should really invest in better speakers. I have heard the 602's sound better than the average 600 dollar speaker, therefore what do you think I would have to spend to see a big improvement. I hear good things about maggiess............Hopefully you didn't get lost with all my questions.......I tend to ramble questions as they come to mind.

[topspeed]

Spending more on your amp than your speakers is indeed overkill IMO, then again source vs. Speakers is a debate as old as the first Victrola. What can not be debated, however, is that speakers will make a more profound difference in sound than switching from one amp to another.

Considering the quality of your front end, it would be difficult to surpass it for $800. At $1,500, you'd have your selection of NAD, Creek, Roxan, Sudgen, and quite a few other integrateds at your disposal. Would they be better than the Rotel? More importantly, do your current speakers have the resolving power to hear the difference?

Maggies have excellent resolving power, but you have to be ready to deal with the idiosyncracies of planars:
* They need room to breath (min 3' from the back wall)
* They can be a difficult load, so make sure your amp is up to it
* Small sweet spot and prone to beaming
* Smaller panels (like the 1.6qr) will likely require a sub if you listen to any Pop/Rock/Rap

The payoff is unmatched speed, a liquid midband, and seamless presentation. Many owners, once they've had a taste of this type of sound, will accept nothing less than planars/'stats. Depending on what you listen to, these assets could easily overshadow any shortcomings.

Based on what I've read, I'd concentrate a lot more on replacing my speakers before addressing the front end. Rotel makes very good equipment and to surpass it is going to take a far bigger investment than $800.

Hope this helps.

[blackraven]

I would have put the money into your speakers and CDP. But since you have the Rotels, stick with them. Your not going to find an integrated amp with the same power and quality for less than $800, unless you can find something used which is always a crap shoot. If your not happy with your speakers and have the room look into the magnepan MMG's or better yet the MG12's for $1100. You can usually find a pair used on ebay or audiogon. Just beware, that you may find that you need a sub if your a bass freak. The MG 12's have decent bass, crisp, tight and "fast", but the MMG's need a sub unless you place them near the corners of a room. They are also picky about the quality of the recording. Poor quality recordings sound like crap. Thats why alot of rock music does not sound very good due to low resolution recordings. But Jazz, acoustic, classical and vocal music sounds awesome.

I disagree with some of the above comments about the Magnepans. I find that my 1.6's sound best 2'to 2.5' from the wall and that they definitely don't need a sub. All my audiophile friends always comment on how great and deep the bass sounds. It all depends upon you room acoustics and speaker placement. The bass in my room with the 1.6's is deep, full, rich and warm with no muddiness or boom. They go down lower then their rated frequency response and magnepan states once they break in that the speakers the low end of the frequency response will improve by about 5Hz. I have found that to be true with mine.

[Bigmoney]

Okay, I am very intrigued to find what magnepans have to offer. Although I do not know of any dealers in my area. If I did not like the sound is there any place online that accepts the return. Comparing box speakers such as my b and w speakers to planar speakers what are the major differences other than placement. Does anyone prefer box over planar. I think my 1080 is up to the task and I do have the freedom of placing my speakers generally wherever they need to be. Sounds like planars are a good option for me. Black raven you mentioned that you would have saved your money for a source, is that really a bigger difference that that of an amp. After all, I have always heard amps are the biggest deference third to speakers and acoustics.....

[blackraven]

BM, all I know is that the Marantz SA8001 SACDP, Cambridge 740c, 840c and Rega Apollo seem to be a big step up in sound quality compared to sub $700 CDP's that I have heard. I don't think there is as much a difference in amps between $750 and $1500 in the ones that I have heard. Now that doesnt mean its necessarily true for all amps in this price range. I just think that a good CDP can make a big difference in sound. The only thing about spending more money on an amp up front is that if you ever want to upgrade to more demanding speakers.

To answer your question about magnepans, you buy the MMG's direct from magnepan and I believe they have a money back guarentee. The MMG's are $550 and are their entry level panels. They will even buy back the speakers if you decide to step up to a larger model, but I think it has to be in the first 6 months. I believe you can use a discount code from audioreview and save some money.

The thing about magnepans is either you like them or you don't. The sound is totally different then box speakers. The sound is fast paced, detailed and large. Because of their large surface area you get a really big sound but there is a sweet spot, especially with the MMG's. The first time you hear a guitar it will sound like its a 20 foot tall guitar. And there is a big step up in sound as you move up to larger models. Even the MG 12's (which are a bargain at $1,100) have a much better sound then the MMG's which are a bargain at $550. Magnepans and other panel speakers have a totally different sound then box speakers. To me, music has a very live performance feel.

If you don't have a very large room, the MMG's will do fine, and if you dont like them you can always return them. Just be aware that the MMG's look kind of cheap, but you wont believe the sound. You will probably want to use a sub with the MMG's if you like deep heart pounding bass. And the best Subs to use with maggies are non ported smaller subs like 8-10" in my experience so the subs can keep up with the maggies. I ran my MMG's with out a sub for a few years just because of my room acoustics and speaker placement. Then I purchased a velodyne ported 8" sub (CHT-8) which sounded pretty good with the maggies as long as I kept the volume of the sub turned down and set the cross over point low at 55Hz. The sub works great with HT however.

[basite]

Are there any integrateds less than 800 new or used than would outperform or perform nearly as well as my 1080/70 combo, for my b and w 602's.


no. not for $800.

keep the amp and preamp, if you wanna upgrade, first upgrade the speakers.

[O'Shag]

That is, yes, equal or better sound can be achieved with and integrated and this typically the case at a given price level, i.e. integrated$ = preamp$+poweramp$.

A couple of reasons for separates are:

Flexibility. That is, the ability to change one component rather than both.
Size. Of course an integrated is smaller than separates of the same power output. But as power goes up it sized does too, to the point where an integrated become just large too big be manageable.Monoblocks, (single channel power amps), are just more separation. Monoblocks are, separately, lighter than a comparable stereo amp; also they tend to stay cooler and can be placed closer to the speakers which many consider a good thing.

True, monoblocks offer the advantages listed above, but I feel the most important advantage of a monobloc solution is the Seperate monoaural power supplies, and more energy storage potential. Granted soome single chassis amps such as my Levinson No. 27 has monaural power supplies, thus allowing vertical biamping. I have two No 27s and use them in this manner as well as in bridged mode. But the monobloc will generally have much more massive power supplies and energy storage potential. This doesn't really apply to Class D amps, but even so some Class D amp mfrs- NuForce for instance - see the benefit in seperate chassis. :3:

If your going to get an integrated, get the Naim Nait 5i or LFD integrated. The Brits have the integrated thing down pat. Either of those two are not massive on power but will sound as good as an integrated can, and better than many seperates for that matter, unless your looking at spending what regular folks consider stoopid-crazy money.

I wonder if someone has ever tried to buy an amp with food stamps? - Amp Stamps. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

[OzzieAudiophile]

Hello.

I believe the advantage of Integrated is the obvious space-saver, less overall cabling, so
you save money on at least 1 cable.

What IS the problem is you must answer the question, are you here for 2-channel, or
5.1 channel ? If it is the latter, receivers have the 5.1 (or more) capability, plus the newer
ones have HDMI ins, BUT absolutely ZERO of them have balanced inputs. However
if you get a pre-amp, some of them have Balanced, and you do have the possibility of
running your system fully balanced. There's nothing stopping you using more than one
component as a pre-amp, the other one may have HDMI ins (most likely to be a receiver),
then you can have the best in both 2 channel and 5.1 channel.

The poweramp however "should" be chosen wisely, it will need to "drive" your speakers
efficiently, and sufficiently. Once you have that down-pat, you have the flexibility of
just upgrading your pre, which is going to be cheaper than getting a replacement
integrated amp, or receiver.

No one has mentioned the possibility of using a receiver as a pre (as I plan to do until
I get a pre), with a power amp. There's nothing stopping you using a pre amp AND
a receiver to hook up to the power amp, to get the best of both 5.1 (with HDMI), AND
the balanced in's for your hi end CD player. I would guess you would need a very
good power amp for that.

I wouldn't advise to neglect or underbudget for a power amp if you choose to get one.
It is a real vital component. What I mean is don't spend 3x times the price of a pre
in comparison to a power amp.

You may want to consider getting the pre and power the same brand so you can
use the remote on the power to turn on BOTH units at the same time. Quite a useful
feature.

There are many brands which offer pre-5.1 so if you intend to move into the 5.1, there's
your meal ticket.

My yamaha receiver for example has an insane amount of inputs, and input types.
It was released before the guy who invented HDMI was born :P

I have an insane amount of optical ins also, and sufficient component ins. The back
of the unit has more holes (inputs) than a factory full of cheese !!!.

It also really depends on your budget, the highest of hi end equipment that the best
companies in the world offer, do make more powerful power amps than integrated ones.
Don't forget you have some companies that do 'media centres' which are at least worth
taking a look at.

The most important thing you must look at, is the component's upgradability, how
future proof is it ? Well look at it this way, does this component already lack what I
need now ? (many of the older but best components are more than 3 years old), so
with HDMI 1.3 becoming the in thing for home theater, and Fully-balanced for
2-channel audio/music, they may end up being the key features you will need.

Some units have a spare space (like one of the Parasound components I have seen),
for "future connections". Look for an ethernet port in the back of the unit, it provides
potential for "upgradability". One good reason Playstation 3 is considered as one of the
most sold of all BluRay players is because it has an ethernet port, so you can download
firmware update and install on the fly.

More than 50% of all bluray players are non-upgradble (unless you chuck it out and
buy a new player).

The blu ray media will soon be released in HDMI 1.2 format so the need for 1.3 is
becoming stronger.

Don't forget that there are many Universal players which have HDMI and upscaling
of DVDs. This is from 576p to 768p (or 1080i). Extremely handy. At least 40% of
these players have a HDMI 1.1 (or above) output. The parasound one also has a
Balanced OUT !!! (YES !!!). It also has the 5.1 outs too.

Now to take advantage of the Balanced outs, you can remove a receiver out of your
options. Back to integrated vs seperates.

You may also need to consider pre's or integrated with 2 sets of Balanced ins.
One for the Universal player, one for the dedicated cd/sacd player, or other component.
You may not need 2, but something to think about anyway. I can guarrantee you
the pre amps which have 2 balanced ins, are all quite expensive.

[Bigmoney]

Thanks for the welath of information ozzie. If you had been around for my other threads you would know that I own a rotel 1070 preamp and rotel 1080 amp, which throws 200 rated watts but more like 225-250 tested. I was just wondering if money would be better spent on an iexpensive integrated rather than the 1500 dollars worth of pre/pro I have.

You mention balanced inputs quite a lot during your post. My preamp does not have balance inputs. In my position are you saying to get the best results of your separates you need balanced ins and outs. My power amp has the balanced ins.

I am only concerned with two channel at the moment. The speakers I have are b and w dm 602 s'3s which retail at 600 and my source is a 200 dollar marantz dvd player. My source is the lowest end of the marantz sources. My question is, whether to upgrade my speakers or my source. I have about 400 dollars to work with. Although my speakers are good they cost less than half of my separates. It only makes sense to spend more on your speakers then separates. That is the reason I question upgrading my monitors to a speaker that will let my separates shine, but many are strong proponents of the source upgrade. I can only afford to make one of the above changes right now:sad: so hopefully you can help me prioritize.:confused:

[blackraven]

BM, your amp and preamp are excellent. Why would you want to down grade your amp and preamp? Dont concern yourself with balanced inputs as they give a mild benefit in sound as compared to upgrading your speakers or CDP.
If you had to pick between speakers and CDP go with speakers if you are unhappy with the sound as this will give you the most improvement in sound.

If your happy with your speaks and can live with them till you have the money to step up to speakers in the over $1500 range then upgrade your CDP if you must feel you need to make a change. Just pick a CDP that will give you the sound that you are looking for-warmer- Marantz SA8001, brighter to more neutral with good detail and transparency- Music Hall 25.2 (the MH has a more laid back sound) or Cambridge audio 640c, more musical and just an all around great player-the Apollo Rega. Or very detailed and transparent and a little on the brigher to neutral side-Cambridge 740c which can also be used as a DAC.

By the way, what is it that you dont like about your system? On paper you have very good equipment and good core amp/preamp for future upgrades.

[kexodusc]

I own a Rotel RA 1070 integrated. I bought it because I felt it offered equal performance to a more expensive pre-amp/amp combo from the same company. At the very least, I couldn't hear a difference that justified the added expense.
For a while I wished i went with separates with a smaller amp, mostly for future upgrade purposes. It would be easier to replace just one piece. And I still don't feel I'm benefiting from the 100+ watts/channel I do have. But after a few years I've surrendered to the fact I have way more than enough power for my needs, which means upgrading shouldn't be necessary for a long time. I guess I'm glad I did what I did.

I don't see one being a better approach than another, but varying degrees of convenience.

I'm sure this isn't always the case, but I would think Rotel and other decent manufacturers use a lot of the same components found in their separates. They just stick'em in one box. I don't think that necessarily means there's any compromise in sonic performance or quality. Maybe just horsepower.

I'd have to echo the sentiments of others here, speakers provide the greatest opportunity for sound improvement.

[Bigmoney]

Good question, Black Raven I think I am upset with the imaging and bass reproduction of my system. I feel the quanitity of bass is not lacking but a bit bloated for my tastes. Also my speakers do not image as well as I would have hoped, but I have heard that is one of the weaknesses my 602's have. Although I am satisfied with my sound I may be a bit obsessive in that I know it can always be better.

[OzzieAudiophile]

As long as you choose to upgrade your speakers that your amps can provide enough
juice for them. For example, if you were in the same situation as me, then you would
definately not change the speakers. I.e. My amp cannot drive my speakers well.

Yeah sorry, there are a lot of threads out there, just don't have the time to read everyone's
threads and responses lol. Not having a go, but I am aware I'd be a much more valuable
member of this wonderful site if I knew how everyone was set up and was full bottle
with every component. I'm not being sarchastic, I actually wouldn't mind being in that
situation. If I was, I wouldn't need to write a thread on my own whether to upgrade my
amps to McIntosh or use other. I am quite limited to choice because I'm in Western
Australia.

We're probably like 6 to 12 months behind the UK and US in terms of technology, and
all prices for hi fi is 40% dearer :(

I just sounds that you will need to find a hifi shop which will allow you to bring in your amps,
and speaker to compare it the shops speakers. It's more unlikely that the shop will allow you to
take their speakers home. So.. if you find out that you're 85% happy with your choice of
new speakers that you can assume that they should sound 15% better after they break in.

The key, the speakers cannot be too powerful that your amp cannot provide enough juice
to break the speakers in.

It appears that your dialemma is solved.

EXCEPT for one other thing, the cables you are using, interconnects, and speaker
cables. If you have a few dollars extra spare, or if you can borrow other brands of cables,
at least a worthwhile test to see how much improvement you can get.

They say an investment of 10 to 15% of your total cost of your system should be allocated
to your cables/interconnects/speaker cables etc.

Placement of the speakers, are also very important. Get a sound metre in, or someone who
has one, to confirm if your speakers are placed in the optimal location (assuming you have not
done that already).

Speaker cable lengths left and right must be the same length (i.e. you don't want 1m left speaker
cable, and 2m right speaker cable). There is the triangle rule, that the distance between left
and right front "should" be the same as the distance you and the speakers.

One other thing regarding placement of speakers, the better imaging they are, the further
apart from each other they need to be. If you have the option of placing them further away
from each other, sit down for at least 15 minutes, listen to the same songs are before
you changed the distance, and compare.

Another thing about placement, any objects which are even slightly in the way, or nearby if they
can be removed, they should be. Speakers do NOT like objects, anything with corners near them.
Look at it, like dropping a glass of water on a kitchen floor, it must be a perfect even
distribution. There must be a clear path from the speaker to your ears at least a 45% angle.

Also are either of your speakers close to a corner ? Some speakers don't like being too near
a corner. However a good way to deal with a lack of bass for example is to move your
speakers closer to the corner. You risk sound quality etc. But it's definately worthwhile to
spend at least a few hours just experimenting in terms of placement with your speakers
so you can maximise your listening experience with what you have today.

If you really wanted to go over the top, you can get a Cedia expert/member in. I don't know what
they charge, and absolutely no disrespect to any members on this site, who many I'm sure are
probably just as qualified if not more than Cedia members.

ALSO your ears must be the exact height of your tweeters. If it is not, then either you can place
a book to heighten the speakers, or raise your chair, or lower your chair etc. Well, at least
find out for yourself how different they sound when your ears are at the same height as your
speaker tweeters. I don't know if your particular model has the tweeters on the upper half of
your speakers, or on the middle, or bottom half. Well I'm giving you options to try which
cost you $0 if they will help fix your situation.

I am more sure that getting replacement speakers will be the missing piece in your equation,
but hey, doesn't hurt to try out the other options.

LMK how you go with it.

[kexodusc]

As long as you choose to upgrade your speakers that your amps can provide enough juice for them. For example, if you were in the same situation as me, then you would definately not change the speakers. I.e. My amp cannot drive my speakers well.

Actually, this is a pretty good point that we tend to overlook in our simple internet answers. I think a lot of people just assume you'll limit your speaker selection to models that jive with your existing amp arrangement. That's probably not always the case, hard to resist a good upgrade sometimes

[blackraven]

Thats interesting that you find the bass bloated on the 602's. I've never found B&W's to have bloated bass. I've always found them to have a very smooth and punchy bass but it could be the acoustics of your room or maybe you have them too close to the wall and/or corners of the room.

If you decide to upgrade your speaks, make sure you can auditon them in your home so you dont run into the same problem. You might want to look into some paradigm speakers. I find them to have a very tight bass but not as warm or prominent bass as B&W's.

[thekid]

B$

I think others have given you good advice on the technical side and I think from purely a power stand point you have a good power/pre amp combo. IMO there are just certain amp/speaker combos that work better than others. I certainly do not own high end gear but I have come to own a variety of low end speaker, recievers and amps over the last year. As I have the opportunity to mix and match them I have noticed that different combo's just sound better than others. The quality of the components is a constant and the room conditions have also basically been constant, so how else to explain the difference in SQ? B&W's may be a good speaker but just not with the pre/amp combo you have. It also just may be a matter of personal preference.

Perhaps others who have your gear can offer their opinion and you can judge it based on your experience. Ultimately it comes down to what you like and I don't think the answer is as easy as just going out looking at some price tags and specs and saying that you have made an upgrade in SQ. The hobby itself and even good sites like this tend to start the upgrade urge but you just need to let your ears be your guide.

Sorry for the wall of text but I wish you well on your search.

[Ajani]

I own a Rotel RA 1070 integrated. I bought it because I felt it offered equal performance to a more expensive pre-amp/amp combo from the same company. At the very least, I couldn't hear a difference that justified the added expense.

..................

I'm sure this isn't always the case, but I would think Rotel and other decent manufacturers use a lot of the same components found in their separates. They just stick'em in one box. I don't think that necessarily means there's any compromise in sonic performance or quality. Maybe just horsepower.

I've found the same thing to be true. In fact, some manufacturers go as far as to admit that their integrateds sound the same, just with less power..... Obviously this isn't always the case....

For less than the price of any amp/pre-amp combo I'm sure that same manufacturer could produce an integrated that performs just as well....

Pre/Power combos are good for flexibility though, especially if you want to mix and match brands or tube and solid state....

[OzzieAudiophile]

Hello, even if you choose a specific brand (i.e. B&W, extra bass etc), you could either
turn OFF the bass extension (sorry, don't have the time to find the manual online to
confirm that you have that option), OR by placing the speakers elsewhere, there will be
less bass.

I'm not saying that is a preferred practice than getting the right speakers which don't sound
too booming, but in case you are willing to go with a specific brand, that does have just
a little bit too much boom.

Ok, you decided to go 2-channel, what kind of music are you going to listen to ?
If it's to be much rock, Hip/hop, then expect a lot of bass to be introduced from the
source. Then you may wish to consider speakers that are a little lighter on the
bass/boom.

I have Dynaudio Contour Mark II 1.8's, and they are absolutely devine for classical,
ambient, anything but rock/hip hop. If the singing of the artists is of high calibre,
i.e. Andrea Bocelli, Sarah Brightman, Hayley Westenra etc, my babies will sing
like angels in heaven.

So just consider that there are some speakers which are more suited to some
music types/genres, and other speaker brands/models are more suited to different
types. Any shop salesman should be able to be honest enough with you if you ask
them straight away as soon as you walk in, that ok, I like "x" types/genres of music,
which speakers do you have are best for these types ?