Is my system good enough?

[emaidel]

Now that I've got my wife almost ready to let me shell out the cash for a new CD player, I'm trying to decide which of three to buy: the Marantz 8001, the Cambridge Audio 740 or 840. As I'm not especially interested in SACD playback, I suspect the Marantz will lose out on that accord.

According to lenghty (and quite informative) posts by Blackraven here, there seems to be a genuine sonic difference between the Cambridge Audio units. Still, I wonder if my system is good enough to be able to hear that difference. Everything I own is good, or "very" good, but all of it's rather old.

The Dahlquist DQ-10's may be "lengendary," and I love them to death, but I know that there are much better speakers out there, but for a helluva lot more money. The Definitive Technology sub is wonderful, but it too is outclassed by many other, newer units. The Adcom GFA-5800, designed by Nelson Pass, is, according to Nelson himself, "the best sounding amp Adcom ever made." A steal at its original list price of $1,500, and a sterling performer, but again, easily eclipsed by many newer, better, and far more expensive amps. The same is true of the Parasound PLL-1100 preamp, designed by John Curl, A very fine preamp, approaching the performance of costlier units, but still not their equal.

So, overall my system's certainly "good," but far from top of the line stuff available today. I still think it sounds far better than it has any right to (as have many who've heard it, and own costlier equipment themselves), but will it enable me to hear a $400 difference between the 740 ad 840 units from Cambridge?

Please feel free to chime in with your comments, as they'll be very helpful in making this buying decision. Thanks!

[Ajani]

Looking for a new CD player in $1K to $1.5K range is tough as there are so many great options to choose from...

I'd probably go with one of the Cambridge models (since you don't care for SACD playback).... If you have balanced inputs on your preamp, then you might want to opt for the 840C... Also if you are considering upgrading any of your other components later on, then the difference between the 840 and 740 may become even more noticeable then, so the investment now would pay off later (even if you can't hear a major difference now)....

[E-Stat]

Now that I've got my wife almost ready to let me shell out the cash for a new CD player, I'm trying to decide which of three to buy: the Marantz 8001, the Cambridge Audio 740 or 840. As I'm not especially interested in SACD playback, I suspect the Marantz will lose out on that accord.
My approach is a bit different. I would choose a merely *good* transport along with a very good DAC. That gives you more flexibility in the long run. I bought a used Manley DAC with a tube analog output for the vintage system. No preamp needed. There are a number of excellent DACs in the $1k range, although that may be a bit higher than your budget.


The Dahlquist DQ-10's may be "lengendary," and I love them to death, but I know that there are much better speakers out there, but for a helluva lot more money.
I'd keep 'em but consider upgrading the electrolytics in the crossover and bypassing the piezo if you haven't already done so.


The Adcom GFA-5800, designed by Nelson Pass, is, according to Nelson himself, "the best sounding amp Adcom ever made." A steal at its original list price of $1,500, and a sterling performer, but again, easily eclipsed by many newer, better, and far more expensive amps.
And that of Nelson's own designs in the Threshold and Pass Labs products where he was in complete control of circuit design and parts quality. I have a 27 year old Stasis 3 driving updated (rewired/crossover caps replaced) double New Advents. Even Advents can resolve differences in the front end and amplification chain if given the chance.


The same is true of the Parasound PLL-1100 preamp, designed by John Curl, A very fine preamp, approaching the performance of costlier units, but still not their equal.

If you have but one source, I would seriously consider using DIY attenuators direct to power amp or buying a DAC having analog gain controls. I'm also going to suggest you run a power conditioner (cheaper than aftermarket PCs) on the CDP to address the unavoidable RFI injected back into the AC. Such will not be a dramatic improvement, but will render better low level resolution if that is important to you.

Best of luck to you!

rw

[blackraven]

I'm using an Adcom HT amp with my 840c and it sounds great. The difference in sound between the 740c and 840c is not dramatic but its there. There is just a bit more detail and more clarity in the treble. Is it worth the extra money, for me it was, but if I was on a budget then I would go for the 740c and not think twice about it.

I do however plan to buy a 2ch amp and preamp with XLR capability to take advantage of the XLR outputs on the 840c. I've read reviews that the XLR's make a noticable difference in sound and others where they could not tell the difference. I even emailed Cambridge Audio and they stated that if you do not have XLR connections then go with the 740c.

One last comment, if your system is a bright sounding system, you may want to go with the Marantz or Regal Apollo . The Cambridge units sound a little bright on my system as the Adcom receiver is a little on the bright side. The Marantz SA8001 has a rich warm sound with more bass but not as much detail and clarity. And any one who doesnt think that different CDP sound that differenty needs to here the Marantz and 740c side by side in their home like I did for 3 weeks. These are totally different animals as far as sound goes. You might also want to consider the Arcam CDP's as well.

[bobsticks]

I like what E-Stat has to say about alternatives to the traditional CDP, but if you're still using the turn table or reel-to-reel the pre-amp issue will remain.




.One last comment, if your system is a bright sounding system, you may want to go with the Marantz or Regal Apollo . The Cambridge units sound a little bright on my system as the Adcom receiver is a little on the bright side. .


My dealer, who has likes and dislikes similar to mine, said the same thing last year. At some point he had Cambridge in a system with Martin Logans and Classe gear. The end result was caustic, and in fact I think "brittle" may have been the exact phrase he used. In fairness to Cambridge I think it was a unit lower on the food chain but in any case the call to avoid Cambridge in bright or highly resolving systems is not singular.

[emaidel]

Thanks, everyone, for your input. My system isn't bright sounding - just clear and articulate. I need a preamp as I'm using a turntable, and two tape decks along with a tuner, though I use the tuner at most about twice a year.

The caps in my DQ-10's are unusual, as the speakers were "Show models" I bought direct from Dahlquist one year when I used them for demonstration purposes at the PIckering booth at a Hi-Fi show in Philadelphia. The caps are large, green blocks that never made it to production models, and offer some pretty amazing results. And I've never been bothered by the piezo tweeters: they don't even begin to do anything until around 12,000HZ, and what little comes out of them adds a pleasant amount of sparkle to the speaker, and not the "spit" such tweeters do when used as the lone tweeter in a cheapo two-way system.

I guess my choice will be between the Cambridge Audio 740 or 840. $400 is a lot of money for a "subtle" difference, but if I should upgrade any other part of my system in the future, I guess I'd appreciate it. Still, I suspect the 740 will do very nicely, and should sound a lot better than my Adcom GCD-600 changer/GDA-600 DAC combination. If it doesn't, it'll go right back for a refund!

[Mr Peabody]

If you are using a DAC now you may be able to get more for your money by just getting a DAC upgrade.

When I first set up my Adcom system, gtp-450/gfa-5400, I bought a used Denon CD player, it was an upper end unit but a couple years old. The system could get a bit bright especially at high volumes and in a live room. I eventually put a solid state Conrad-Johnson DAC in the loop and it made a tremendous difference in sound quality. So I do think your system is good enough that you will appreciate an upgrade in digital playback whether DAC or single box. That ole Denon is still chugging along and made a great transport. The system really came into it's own when I recently put the 5500 in. I too really find myself liking those old Adcom amps. The 5400 is alright for the money but I can take it, or leave it, but I don't plan on parting with this 5500.

[blackraven]

Thats great that you have show model speakers. Many show models have upgrades that never make it into production because of costs or to make the speakers sound better than the should so that they will sell. It's not too uncommon a practice.

Emaidel, make sure you buy the 740c from a dealer with a good return policy. I bought mine from www.wildwestelectronics.com and they have a 30 day return policy but you will have to pay the return shipping. They did not hassle me when I exchanged the 740c for the 840c.

[JohnMichael]

First I must say I love my Marantz SA8001. Cd sounds so much better through it and SACD sounds even better. Sounds more like music and less like electronics. Much more of my collection is enjoyable with the 8001 than through other players. Pace and timing is good. Instruments in the lower frequencies carry appropriate weight. Just very nice with no listener fatigue. Since the SA8001 arrived my turntable does not spin as much as before.

[blackraven]

I really liked the SA8001 when I compaired it to the 740c. I should have kept it and used it as an SACD player and for certain other types of music. I'll probably end up buying another one someday.

[Feanor]

Now that I've got my wife almost ready to let me shell out the cash for a new CD player, I'm trying to decide which of three to buy: the Marantz 8001, the Cambridge Audio 740 or 840. As I'm not especially interested in SACD playback, I suspect the Marantz will lose out on that accord.
..

Although I'm an advocate for SACD as a multichannel medium, think in a stereo system there is potential to get more satisfaction from a really good CDP or DAC.

The Cambridge models cited have a great rep and have the advantage of being both CDPs and DACs.

A DAC I'd give serious consideration to, based on recommendations, is the Monarchy M24 (http://www.monarchyaudio.com/). This is a DAC that is also a tube line stage. Tubes can do good things as I learned after a long period of skepticism.

You may recall that I have often recommended Monarchy amps, specifically the SM-70 Pros. You might get more improvement with a new amp than a new CDP or DAC. Yes, yes, the GPA5800 might be quite good but I suspect that a pair of SM-70s would kick its butt around the block (at least at moderate listening levels).

[emaidel]

First I must say I love my Marantz SA8001. Cd sounds so much better through it and SACD sounds even better. Sounds more like music and less like electronics. Much more of my collection is enjoyable with the 8001 than through other players. Pace and timing is good. Instruments in the lower frequencies carry appropriate weight. Just very nice with no listener fatigue. Since the SA8001 arrived my turntable does not spin as much as before.

I was waiting to hear from you, as you've mentioned how much you enjoy your 8001 player. SACD would interest me more if more titles were availble, and if the format had better support from producers of CD's. It seems to me that it's going to go the way of HD-DVD pretty soon, as fewer and fewer releases seem to be available in that format, save new Telarc releases. I will admit, however, that in some of my conversations with Jack Renner (former president, and chief recording engineer for Telarc) that he suggested going with SACD for the sonic improvements the format offers over standard CD playback.

I'm primarily interested in how much better my present library of well over 1,500 CD's will sound, as I'm not about to start purchasing SACD replacements for most of them. From what I've been able to ascertain from other posts, the Cambridge Audio units do a better job of this than does the Marantz, though I can't be certain of this. I wish I could, as that would certainly make my decision a lot easier.

Still, you have a fine turntable, and an even better cartridge, and to prefer the sound of your Marantz 8001 says a lot.

[blackraven]

Emaidel, what convinced me to go with the cambridge unit over the Marantz was the fact that my collection of music is all on std CD and not SACD except for all my old LP's. I have to admit it was a tough decision because the Marantz matched my system better because of the slight brightness to my amp. The Marantz is an excellent std CDP as well as SACDP. But the cambridge units were by far more crisp, clear and detailed as well as more musical. And at the time I already had planned to eventually upgrade to a 2ch amp for music and use my adcom only for HT use. I also figured that I would purchase the Oppo 980HD player and use it as an SACDP, or possibly go with the Marantz 6001 universal player for a DVD and SACDP.

As far as the Marantz goes, I would have no second thoughts recommnding it as a stand alone std CDP.

[basite]

add a rega apollo to your list.

together with a Primare CD21 and a Naim CD5i...

all exellent players, none of them do SACD.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[emaidel]

add a rega apollo to your list.

together with a Primare CD21 and a Naim CD5i...

all exellent players, none of them do SACD.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

From what I can tell, the US retail of the Primare CD21 is about $1,600, and that of the Naim is over $2,000 - both more than I wanted to spend. The Rega may be a fine player, but the location in which I will be putting a CD player rules out its top loading, and the 8-second dealy before being able to listen to a disc after loading it would drive me nuts.

Still, thanks for the suggestions.

[Ajani]

If you are using a DAC now you may be able to get more for your money by just getting a DAC upgrade......

Sounds like a good idea to me.... in addition to the Cambridge, Marantz & Rega CD players mentioned you may also want to consider the following:

CD Players:

Quad 99 CDP $1,350


DACS:

Benchmark DAC1 $975 (been raved about nonstop for the last 4 years or so)
PS Audio Digital Link III $995
Musical Fidelity X-DAC V8 $1,500 (has both solid state and tube output options)

[dingus]

Ed,
i'm confident that your system has more than enough refinement and resolution to easily discern a difference in cdp's. that said, i'll second the DAC / transport combo, or at the very least, try a tube buffer with the cdp. as stated by others, the DAC gives you more options, you can use any player that has digital outs, so using your current player with a DAC gives you a very nice upgrade (as long as your cdp has a digital out) and gives you a wider range of players / transports to choose from when you upgrade.

[Mr Peabody]

Some one mentioned Arcam earlier, I will 2nd that. They make excellent cdp's. If your budget is stretching up toward $1500.00, I might as well pitch my favorite the Audio Note 1.1x DAC. The 1.1x is a tube DAC and it replaced my Krell 280cd which retailed at $3250.00. The 280cd still had an edge in bass authority and size of sound stage but the 1.1x had a natural reproduction of music like I haven't heard before. The 280cd is a great sounding piece, I just bought the 1.1x to experiment with tubes, I never expected it to take the place of the 280. Each time I took the 1.1x out I had to put it right back, I just preferred it's sound more. Of course, from that experience sparked further curiosity of tubes but that's a story for another time.

Isn't shopping fun? Will any stores allow for an in home audition? If not, once you narrow your list, you could bring a couple in off the web and send the loser back.

[blackraven]

Dingus, do you have any info about tube buffers and where I could find them? A while back I heard something about them and there was a question on whether they make a difference or not. Thanks!
Larry

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not Dingus but www.amusicdirect.com carries the Musical Fidelity tube buffer. For the price though you could probably just pick up a used tube DAC from Audiogon. The buffer would be more versatile as you could put it between a variety of different components though.

Just my opinion, from a purist stand point the buffer would not be a good addition. It will only mask, or color, something you don't like about your system. I guess if it works that may not necessarily be a bad thing. Have you experimented with cables? I forget the names of the various series but Cardas makes one that is designed to lean toward the warm side.

[dingus]

Dingus, do you have any info about tube buffers and where I could find them? A while back I heard something about them and there was a question on whether they make a difference or not. Thanks!
Larry
i have a Grant Fidelity B-283 which, when coupled with a cdp\dvd, makes a very nice improvement over a player by itself.

http://grantfidelity.com/site/node/75

[dingus]

I'm not Dingus but www.amusicdirect.com carries the Musical Fidelity tube buffer. For the price though you could probably just pick up a used tube DAC from Audiogon. The buffer would be more versatile as you could put it between a variety of different components though.

Just my opinion, from a purist stand point the buffer would not be a good addition. It will only mask, or color, something you don't like about your system. I guess if it works that may not necessarily be a bad thing. Have you experimented with cables? I forget the names of the various series but Cardas makes one that is designed to lean toward the warm side.
a tube buffer is a good option when you are looking for an inexpensive way to improve the sound of an existing cdp. if you are looking to significantly upgrade your digital path then it cant compete with a good DAC / transport combo.

[Feanor]

I'm not Dingus but www.amusicdirect.com (http://www.amusicdirect.com) carries the Musical Fidelity tube buffer. For the price though you could probably just pick up a used tube DAC from Audiogon. The buffer would be more versatile as you could put it between a variety of different components though.

Just my opinion, from a purist stand point the buffer would not be a good addition. It will only mask, or color, something you don't like about your system. I guess if it works that may not necessarily be a bad thing. Have you experimented with cables? I forget the names of the various series but Cardas makes one that is designed to lean toward the warm side.

My theory for tubes, (and I am a tube user), is that they work mainly by injecting a bit of pleasant-sounding low-order harmonic distortion that has the effect of masking nasty high-order harmonic distorion that is particularly associated with high-feedback sold state designs. Buy that? OK, so a benefitial effect can be obtained by putting a tube component, for example a tube buffer, any where in the reporduction chain.

[emaidel]

Again, thanks to all for your suggestions and comments. Unfortunately, as of now, a purchase of a new CD player is on hold due to our whopping six figure income tax bill. My wife cashed in all of her stock options last year, and foolishly, we didn't have any taxes taken out, so we owe big time.

That, along with the current tanking of the stock market, and the fact that we are both retired and living off our investments puts any purchase of significance on the back burner, at least for a while. We've been dealing with Bear Stearns for quite some time, and to hear that it all but collapsed yesterday is certainly worrisome.

Still, it looks as if I'm focusing on the Cambridge Audio 740 as my player of choice. While I appreciate all the posts recommending a high quality DAC, that would mean connecting it to my current player which is the source of intermittent trouble now. I certainly wouldn't want to upgrade something that'll eventually fail, and from what I've been able to tell, the DAC within the 740 unit is a pretty decent converter in its own right.

While I suspect I'd be more than satisfied with the Marantz 8001, even without much interest in SACD's, I'm going with Blackraven's comments in which he clearly prefers the 740 to it. And the 840 is, at least for the moment, too expensive.

So, that's it for a while. So, once again, thanks everyone. It's been fun!

[Mr Peabody]

I heard this morning something about JP Morgan and the government working to help Bear Sterns keep going. It seems rumors circulating about a possible bankruptcy was causing people to cash out and drain their cash supply. I can help you in regards to what to expect and what options are available from the IRS if you can't pay your bill in full. Email me if interested.

[emaidel]

I can help you in regards to what to expect and what options are available from the IRS if you can't pay your bill in full. Email me if interested.

Thanks for the offer, but we're able to pay the bill. We'll just have that much less in our retirement "nest egg." We knew we'd get clobbered, and went about investing (and spending) as if all this money were ours, and after we had our taxes done, we just about fainted! Still, we're fine.

As it turns out, my mortgage company (Countrywide - another company in deep trouble) foolishly paid a property tax bill which was in error, and which I informed them was in error, and was not to be paid. It seems as if our local county tax office (Spartanburg, SC) will be sending us a refund that just might cover the cost of a new CD player!

In the meantime, I may be able to come up with a bit less than $200 to improve the sound of my CD's. I'm currently using the Adcom GDA-600 DAC, which is OK, but was eclipsed by their newer, and far superior, GDA-700. Both units are long discontinued, but there's a 700 on ebay currently with a bid of only $149, so I'm going to keep my eye on that. It won't make my CD's sound as good as they might on a new Cambridge Audio 740, but it'll be a noticeable improvement, and for a very small investment. I'll keep everyone posted as to what I do.

[Mr Peabody]

And don't forget about the upcoming Economic Stimulus Rebate president Bush has generously handed out to kick the economy in the rear. You're almost obligated to spend it, on a CD player :)

[emaidel]

And don't forget about the upcoming Economic Stimulus Rebate president Bush has generously handed out to kick the economy in the rear. You're almost obligated to spend it, on a CD player :)

Now, if you could only convince my wife of that, then I'd be a happy camper!

[thekid]

The sound of my economic stimulus check is playing in the background.....unfortunately what the sound is coming from is the new washing machine filling up....... :(

I'd almost love to deal with the problems of stock options and 6-figure tax bills but it is all relative so good luck E with the IRS. At least now when I am talking about a $150 upgrade and some of you are talking about $1500 upgrades I know where we all stand on the economic ladder. Just keep "trickle down economics" (and me) in mind when you are ready to get rid of your old gear...... :)

[emaidel]

First of all, I should never have stated the relative size of our income tax bill: that's really no one's business other than ours, and by doing so I've given some the wrong impression that my wife and I are filthy rich, which we most decidedly are not. We just cashed out years and years of investments all at once to use for a retirement fund for the rest of our lives, and foolishly didn't have taxes taken out at the time, and so we got clobbered. Life will continue, and so will we.

More relevant to this thread, I lost out on the Adcom GDA-700. I had bid $200, and placed $250 as my "maximum bid" and then my bid was automatically raised to $202.50. It sat there for a long time, and whenver I checked, I was still listed as the high bidder. I watched it even when there were only 6, and then 4 minutes left, and was still the high bidder. I left the room briefly, and when I returned, there was a notice that I'd been outbid, and that the unit had sold to someone else for $255. I was crushed!

There are those who watch an item on ebay and, just seconds before the time runs out, place a higher bid and "win" that item before anyone else has a chance to respond. Somehow, I find this a bit sleazy, but then, if it were the other way around, and it was myself who jumped in at the last minute and "won" the item, I might feel differently. Still, let this be a warning to all: you may be the "high bidder" and remain there for days, but watch out those last few seconds!

So, unless another GDA-700 becomes available, it's back to hoping to find a way to convince my wife that we "need" to spend $1,000 or so on a new player. I'm still not convinced which one, as I've seen more and more positive stuff on the Marantz 8001 recently. Since I'm an avid fan of Telarc, and they release all of their classical CD's in both SACD and normal CD formats, SACD might be an interesting choice. In my conversations with Jack Renner (former founder/president/chief recording engineer for Telarc) he suggested going with SACD for its improvements, and I take his opinion very seriously.

[thekid]

E

I was just having a little fun regarding the $ situation, as I said it is all relative.

The behavior you describe on E-Bay is one I am familiar with and I think is what leads to some of the higher than normal sale prices. I think in a lot of cases people are almost forced to put what I call a "poison pill" high bid which is so high that no one will go above it and is reached when the last minute bidders try to swoop in at the last minute and keep making incremental bids until they run out of time. Unfortunately the "winner" is really the loser when he finds out he overpaid for the item. I now just place a bid on an item based on what I am willing to pay and I walk away. If I win I win if not I don't loose any sleep.