SVS Vs REL Subwoofer

[T-Bone]

OK all of you in audioland... I am looking for some help.

I am a 2-channel stereo man... but I have a problem: my bookshelf speakers only dip down to 50hz. I am looking for a musical way to solve this problem, and two big names have repeatedly come up: SVS and REL. I really have not heard a bad word about either of them, and here is the way I am stacking it up. REL seems to be a musical amp. I know that they are a bit expensive (start at $750 US), but the reputation seems to be founded on good musicality. I feel comfortable with this product, and am considering it heavily.

Now for the SVS. They appear to be miraculous based on some of the reviews that I have read, I almost expect this thing to start my car on a cold morning. The problem that I see is that all of the reviews are written to the home theater crowd... music seems to be an afterthought. They are a bit cheaper (start at $550 US for powered). Is this lower price going to bite me in the rear-end in terms of integration with my bookshelf speakers and detailed bass?

If anyone can shed some light on either of these models, or suggest a dark horse, please let me know.

PS: I am a big classical music fan... a pipe organ should sound like a pipe organ, and a tympani should have tune.

[agtpunx40]

For music alone, I'd check out the adire rava,
www.adireaudio.com
I think that this is generally considered the best lower budget sub for music. I'd say that svs is known as better for ht, and hsu vtf is kinda in between. I own a vtf 2 and it does good for both, I think it's a great deal for the money. I have to say I haven't heard the other two but this is the general message I seem to be getting about them on the boards. I'm sure all of them are good, but this just seems to be their respective strengths. The problem is you probably won't get to hear any of them since they're mail order only.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

OK all of you in audioland... I am looking for some help.

I am a 2-channel stereo man... but I have a problem: my bookshelf speakers only dip down to 50hz. I am looking for a musical way to solve this problem, and two big names have repeatedly come up: SVS and REL. I really have not heard a bad word about either of them, and here is the way I am stacking it up. REL seems to be a musical amp. I know that they are a bit expensive (start at $750 US), but the reputation seems to be founded on good musicality. I feel comfortable with this product, and am considering it heavily.

Now for the SVS. They appear to be miraculous based on some of the reviews that I have read, I almost expect this thing to start my car on a cold morning. The problem that I see is that all of the reviews are written to the home theater crowd... music seems to be an afterthought. They are a bit cheaper (start at $550 US for powered). Is this lower price going to bite me in the rear-end in terms of integration with my bookshelf speakers and detailed bass?

If anyone can shed some light on either of these models, or suggest a dark horse, please let me know.

PS: I am a big classical music fan... a pipe organ should sound like a pipe organ, and a tympani should have tune.

SVS subs are just as good for music as they are for hometheater. If you do like organ music, then the SVS is the sub. Depending on which one you purchase, it can play the fundamental note on the lowest pedal on the organ with no trouble whatsoever. It will also give you a VERY good idea of where the loose, vibrating objects are in your room.

[T-Bone]

Thanks for the replies... it really helps me out.

I suppose the thing that worries me about the SVS sub is that it might dominate the sound... this is, after all, going to be paired with bookshelf speakers. How adjustable is the SVS?

Also... thanks for the suggesting for the ADIRE subs... I am certainly going to look into it.


Does anyone know what to look for when considering the integration between sub and bookshelf? What makes the biggest difference? The central amp? The powered sub amp? Any info on the interaction would also be great.

This place rocks... Tyler

[toby]

I have just recently purchased a Rel Stentor subwoofer second hand and a pair of Harbeth Compact 7 main speakers. This is the first subwoofer I have purchased but have over the years bought several pairs of speakers eg Kefs,mission,naim but to name a few.My listening room measures only 12ft long x 9ft wide and the ceiling is 8ft high. When I placed the Rel in my system and room I was shocked to say the least. The Harbeths are superb in their own right but with the addition of the Rel, the system just went to a different level.The Rel integrates with my main speakers and all the sound seems to come from the Harbeths.The bass is detailed, tight and controlled and the soundstage extends acoss the room. In my small room the Rel integrates perfectly but it has the capability of rattling the windows also. I have placed it along the side wall and only stand three feet away from it when listening to my music and most of the time you wouldn't know it was switched on. I haven't heard the SVS Subwoofer but if it can integrate into your system and room like the Rel has mine you've got a tough choice.

[Woochifer]

If you can delay your purchase for a couple of months, you could also wait for Adire to release the updated version of its Daeva subwoofer. It's a sealed sub similar to the 12" Rava, except that it uses Adire's 15" Tempest driver with a 400 watt Class D amp, and costs $600. It retains the advantages of a sealed sub, while dropping the frequency depth down a notch. On paper at least, it's similar to the Paradigm Servo-15.

They made the Daeva for a short time last year, but the 300 watt amp that they paired with that model got discontinued, so they're currently waiting for the 400 watt replacement model to become available.

[This Guy]

Yeh look at the Daeva, I'd also look at the Dayton Titanic, although does cost more.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=13710832&St=3986&St2=36049461&St3=-28592875&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=167009&DID=7

Just gotta put it together.

-Joey

[WallySeagal]

Perhaps a better choice for you would be Hsu Research VTF-3 Mark II. Dual heavily flared ports and 350 watts of power, with ability to adjust tune to below 20Hz, for just short of 700 US dollars. Hsu is known for being one of the best music/HT combo subs for the buck. Hsu subs even mate well with such demanding speakers as Quads (Dr. Hsu owns a pair of these) and Magneplanars. You will have a smile plastered all over your face when you consider what you are getting for the buck. :cool:

www.hsuresearch.com

[T-Bone]

You guys have no idea how much this helps me out. Thanks.

I guess I am kind of curious about the emphasis placed on wattage and volume... is it possible to purchase an active sub that does not add enough bass?

Specifically, I am curious to know whether or not there is a trade off: Is it possible to attain the lower frequencies (i.e., 20Hz) without having to use a 300-400 watt amp? If a sub is built for power, does it lose the ability to reproduce fine differences between instruments? I suppose I am afraid that if I use an enormous subwoofer with my stereo system, it might overpower everything else and I would lose the subtelty of the bookshelf speakers.

Any tips on the crossover frequency to use?

Always grateful for any advice... Tyler

[WallySeagal]

It IS possible to create a sub that can play loud at 20Hz when using less than 300-400 watts of power! This is related to the efficiency of the design. Hsu Research has been producing very high output subs that have used 150 watt and 250 watt amps. The VTF-3 Mark 1 had 250 watts of power, and the 1220TN had 250 watt amps in it's reviews. The larger the enclosure that one uses, the more easy it is to get away with using less amplifier power. There are some very large and efficient subwoofers that require extremely little power in order to play very loud.

A subwoofer can be quite adept at both music and Home Theater. Hsu is a prime example. He has some majorly impressive design and engineering background and credentials. Most people could not pack the Performance-per-Size that he can. The general idea is to use the subwoofer to complement your speakers. Let the subwoofer take some of the low bass load away from your main speakers. This actually helps the speakers to sound better, and allows you to place the sub to optimize low frequency output and response.

The 1220TN hooked up to Hsu Research 500 watt amplifier is the audiophile and music listeners delight from this company, if the budget allows. The standard crossover point is 51Hz (should work well with your speakers, although other crossover modules are available), and the amp is designed all the way for audiophile 2 channel buffs, with active high pass and low pass filters and class A crossover. As a bonus, this thing can shake almost every loose item in your room when played with pipe organ music, and if you want even more, the amp allows hookup of a second sub.

You should not, however, buy $500/pair speakers and use a $1000 subwoofer with them. That is a little bit dumb. Try to keep your system balanced. A subwoofer is important, but not as important as your two front speakers and your amp in a audiophile music system.

[Woochifer]

You guys have no idea how much this helps me out. Thanks.

I guess I am kind of curious about the emphasis placed on wattage and volume... is it possible to purchase an active sub that does not add enough bass?

Specifically, I am curious to know whether or not there is a trade off: Is it possible to attain the lower frequencies (i.e., 20Hz) without having to use a 300-400 watt amp? If a sub is built for power, does it lose the ability to reproduce fine differences between instruments? I suppose I am afraid that if I use an enormous subwoofer with my stereo system, it might overpower everything else and I would lose the subtelty of the bookshelf speakers.

Any tips on the crossover frequency to use?

Always grateful for any advice... Tyler

Not enough bass depends on how much bass you're expecting. With a ported sub, the main variable is the tuned port frequency as it relates to the internal volume. If it's tuned for 35 Hz, then it will play loud down to that point, and then drop off fairly rapidly no matter how much power you give it. If you're not gunning for reference level bass, then you can do plenty with a lot less than 400 watts. Adire Audio's DIY project instructions for their 12" Shiva driver (the one that's used in the Rava) state that as little as 40 watts will work fine for most everyday listening, and that 100 watts is plenty even though the driver can handle a maximum input of 600 watts.

You can have the most insanely powerful subwoofer amp, and the sub won't overpower your main speakers one bit if you got the levels set properly and the subwoofer situated in a good spot. If anything, the main determinant of how much a subwoofer overpowers the main speaker might have nothing to do with the subwoofer itself, but with the room acoustics. In a small to medium sized room, you're likely to encounter standing waves, which create peaks and nulls at various points in the room. If your seating position is right where a peak occurs, then the bass can sound unbearably boomy. A combination of room treatments like corner traps, and parametric equalization can remedy these problems.

What you really want is for the bass to sound full and seamlessly integrated with the mains. Peaks at specific frequencies creates "one-note" bass where it's way head jarring in a few spots (like when a string bass just rings your head when it hits a particular note), but thin sounding and weak overall. By eliminating the peaks with a parametric equalizer, you can raise the bass level and it will sound full. Even with the bass turned up to a fairly high level, it won't sound overpowering because it's balanced.

If you're using the high pass speaker output, then the crossover point is more art than science. Set the crossover right at the point where the speaker's low end response starts to tail off. Might want to do some measurements first, and start tinkering with the settings.

[T-Bone]

Not enough bass depends on how much bass you're expecting. With a ported sub, the main variable is the tuned port frequency as it relates to the internal volume. If it's tuned for 35 Hz, then it will play loud down to that point, and then drop off fairly rapidly no matter how much power you give it. If you're not gunning for reference level bass, then you can do plenty with a lot less than 400 watts. Adire Audio's DIY project instructions for their 12" Shiva driver (the one that's used in the Rava) state that as little as 40 watts will work fine for most everyday listening, and that 100 watts is plenty even though the driver can handle a maximum input of 600 watts.

You can have the most insanely powerful subwoofer amp, and the sub won't overpower your main speakers one bit if you got the levels set properly and the subwoofer situated in a good spot. If anything, the main determinant of how much a subwoofer overpowers the main speaker might have nothing to do with the subwoofer itself, but with the room acoustics. In a small to medium sized room, you're likely to encounter standing waves, which create peaks and nulls at various points in the room. If your seating position is right where a peak occurs, then the bass can sound unbearably boomy. A combination of room treatments like corner traps, and parametric equalization can remedy these problems.

What you really want is for the bass to sound full and seamlessly integrated with the mains. Peaks at specific frequencies creates "one-note" bass where it's way head jarring in a few spots (like when a string bass just rings your head when it hits a particular note), but thin sounding and weak overall. By eliminating the peaks with a parametric equalizer, you can raise the bass level and it will sound full. Even with the bass turned up to a fairly high level, it won't sound overpowering because it's balanced.

If you're using the high pass speaker output, then the crossover point is more art than science. Set the crossover right at the point where the speaker's low end response starts to tail off. Might want to do some measurements first, and start tinkering with the settings.

I am probably asking a question that has an enormous answer, but here is is: What is a parametric equalizer, and how is one used?

Thanks for the help Woochifer...great reply.