The Scaler on HDDVD Players

[O'Shag]

Hi guys,

I happened to be in my local electronics store this evening and ran into some fellow enthusiasts. After talking with them, I am now very interested in picking up an HDDVD player, especially for its upscaling capabilities. These chaps told me that the scaler on the HDDVD player is even superior to the BluRay. I haven't yet got either HDDVD or BluRay. Your feedback on the quality of the HDDVD scaler (for regular DVDs) would be appreciated. If I get good responses, I may treat myself to the Toshiba player (what was their top of the line player?) for St. Patrick's Day.

Cheers and Slainte

[Breezer88888]

Hi O'Shag,

I was a long time fan of upscaling and in its day my Sony DVP-975 was very good and would have held me over until the format war would show a clear winner. It recently died so I picked up a Toshiba A3 (not A30 as my 60 inch RPTV only goes to 1080i), even though I knew that Blu-Ray was the winner. For value, I was tempted by the $100 price tag with 7 free discs - but I'm sure you know that there is much debate over whether the Toshiba is a good enough stop-gap until Blu-Rays get cheaper. But since your question is on the upscaling part, I can tell you that I was not that impressed. It does a good job, but no more than that. I was expecting upscaling technology to be better than what my old Sony from over 5 years ago offered. I don't know how the guys in the electronics store can claim that the upscaling on HDDVD players can be better than that of Blu-Ray unless they can show you a true comparison or an independent article of someone reputable who did the experiment. If you were considering the Toshiba XA-2, then maybe they were right since I've read favorable comments from HT magazine where it excelled against other HDDVD players in the upscaling arena. Hope this helps - good luck with it all.

[musicman1999]

I have a Sony s-300 Bluray and had a Toshiba d3.I found that the Toshiba was a fair bit better as an upscaler than the Sony is, but found neither to be a substitute for a very good SD player so the Toshiba is gone since Blu has won the war.


bill

[Mr Peabody]

If I find the link I will try to be back to post it but the Samsung BD-P1200 won a shoot out between some Blu-ray players and standard DVD on playing upscaled SD. The BD-P1200 uses the Silicon Optix HQV video processing which if I'm not mistaken is the same as the XA-2 uses. The BD-P1200 has some controversial problems with playing the newer BR discs and being firmware upgraded. I'm not sure if Tosh used Silicon Optix in all their players but if so, it should be the best upscaling of SD available other than BR players using the same processing...... theoretically. I don't really have anything to compare my 1200's upscaling ability to but it is impressive. Well except for the crappy job my LG does of supposedly upscaling.

This is a link to a CNET review of the BD-P1200, where it talks about their experience with the upscaling of the SO HQV. http://reviews.cnet.com/video-players-and-recorders/samsung-bd-p1200/4505-6463_7-32391011.html

[Breezer88888]

Hello Mr. Peabody,
The review you might be thinking of is the comparison in Home Theater magazine's Oct 2007 issue. I'm not sure which current model Samsung has that comparable equipment, but I don't think that it's the entry level model 1400 currently going for $399. People will need to do their homework on that to be certain. As for Toshiba's use of Silicon Optix circuitry, they did not use it for their entry level models and reserved that for the XA-2 (which may be the reason that it's so much more $$$). If anyone has better info, please post - thx.

[Mr Peabody]

I think you are probably correct. I found out from reading some reviews of BR players that many of the current generation players standard DVD playback sucks, including Samsung's 1400, Panasonic's dmp30 and even the Pioneer Elite 95f. The reason is they all use the same Sigma Design video decoder chip that does BOTH HD and SD video. The SD video performance is on par with sub $100.00 DVD players. Samsung's 1200 had separate decoders for HD and SD, as did the Panasonic dmp10. Only Samsung used Silicon Optix Reon of the two though.

I was thinking about picking up another BR player but I'm not unless the next wave have addressed this problem. Newcomers to BR will have to keep their DVD player in the rack or endure sub standard SD playback. I'd like to hear the reason behind using the Sigma. Didn't anyone test these things before using them across the board? Do they think it's going to make us want to dump our DVD's to replace them on BR? I'd just asoon go back to DVD and let them have the HD. How long can they keep taking the consumer for granted. Look at the HDMI confusion. And, they are the ones behind HDMI LLC. It's like all the CEO's of electronics companies have been replaced by Larry, Curley & Moe.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I think you are probably correct. I found out from reading some reviews of BR players that many of the current generation players standard DVD playback sucks, including Samsung's 1400, Panasonic's dmp30 and even the Pioneer Elite 95f. The reason is they all use the same Sigma Design video decoder chip that does BOTH HD and SD video. The SD video performance is on par with sub $100.00 DVD players. Samsung's 1200 had separate decoders for HD and SD, as did the Panasonic dmp10. Only Samsung used Silicon Optix Reon of the two though.

I was thinking about picking up another BR player but I'm not unless the next wave have addressed this problem. Newcomers to BR will have to keep their DVD player in the rack or endure sub standard SD playback. I'd like to hear the reason behind using the Sigma. Didn't anyone test these things before using them across the board? Do they think it's going to make us want to dump our DVD's to replace them on BR? I'd just asoon go back to DVD and let them have the HD. How long can they keep taking the consumer for granted. Look at the HDMI confusion. And, they are the ones behind HDMI LLC. It's like all the CEO's of electronics companies have been replaced by Larry, Curley & Moe.

Mr P,
I do not think this is a fair critisizm. Is the primary job of a bluray player to play bluray movies and do a good job, or playback DVD's and do a good job? I would take the former because DVD's look only as good as the compression quality used on the disc. Sometimes when you upconvert it to 1080i/p, things look worse.

I do not think it is the chipset at all, I think it is how it is programmed by the manufacturer, and how it is used with other processing in the player. Sigma Designs designs excellent chipsets, they are used in several video processing devices we have at Disney with excellent results. However, there are filters and other things in the chain as well as the chip, so it is not fair without doing some signal chain analysis to blame the chip itself. Alot of the lower end products had to cut corner where the higher priced players did not. To include a Reon processing chip in every bluray player would up the price about $100. You cannot complain about the price of the players, and then demand one of the best upscaling chips to be included as well. Something has to give, and with Toshiba including it in the X-a2, they didn't sell well because of the price. That is the reason it was not included in the A-35, it would have sent the price from $599 to closer to the price of the X-a2. The highest quality upconverting chipsets are very expensive. So one has to choose whether it is worth the expense(those complaining about player price), or a cheaper and almost as good alternative is called for. DVD players are alot cheaper to make than a bluray player. So you can put a reon chip in those as still meet a certain price point.

[pixelthis]

"Upconverting " is nothing but fairydust.
there is NO way to get extra res out of a format without an expensive scaler,
and then the difference is slight.
Picture might be a tad smoother but thats pretty much it.
And when I was checking out a blu player the 1080p pic was quite good, but the dvd pic was rather pedestrian.
My Sony dvd recorder beat the pants off of it:1:

[Mr Peabody]

Sir T, I can almost see your point. The poor SD playback seems to be across the board with the Sigma chip though. Including the $999.00 Elite player. In addition the Sigma chip can't upscale from 1080i to 1080p properly.

I personally would rather pay the extra $100.00 for the BR player and have it do both formats well. Why have 2 boxes? I thought it was crazy to have DVD players play CD when they first came out but I don't think it's asking too much for a video disc player to play both SD and HD well. Why not just for go DVD playback at all and give us an even lower price if they are going to half *ss do it? Samsung did it and retail was $599.00 for the 1200, these half players aren't all that much cheaper and some even cost more. I was seriously considering a s2000es until I uncovered this snafu.

If I may hijack just for a moment, Sir T why did you get the Sony receiver opposed to the Integra RTC 9.8 or Onkyo Pro 885?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, I can almost see your point. The poor SD playback seems to be across the board with the Sigma chip though. Including the $999.00 Elite player. In addition the Sigma chip can't upscale from 1080i to 1080p properly.

I personally would rather pay the extra $100.00 for the BR player and have it do both formats well. Why have 2 boxes? I thought it was crazy to have DVD players play CD when they first came out but I don't think it's asking too much for a video disc player to play both SD and HD well. Why not just for go DVD playback at all and give us an even lower price if they are going to half *ss do it? Samsung did it and retail was $599.00 for the 1200, these half players aren't all that much cheaper and some even cost more. I was seriously considering a s2000es until I uncovered this snafu.

If I may hijack just for a moment, Sir T why did you get the Sony receiver opposed to the Integra RTC 9.8 or Onkyo Pro 885?

Are we on a airplane or a boat. If I am going to be hyjacked, I gotta know these tings.

I chose the Sony because at the time Pro-885 was not available. This receiver is only a interim piece. When I can find time to look into another pre-pro, I am going to buckle down and get one. The 885 is high on my list though.

[blackraven]

You guys are missing the boat. The manufacturers are making BR machines for mass market, where the majority of people probably own sub $100 DVD players and think that the picture is great. The BR companies only care about selling BR machines not DVD. They do not cater to videophiles and audiophiles. They want to sell a lot of BRP's and as cheap as possible right now to make BR the standard. Just about any one who buys a BRP now already owns a DVDP! May be when BR becomes the STD then we will see players that play BR and SD DVD well.

[GMichael]

It is in Sony's interest that when average Joe plops in a DVD that it doesn't look nearly as good as a BR disk.