Does Classe have a reliability problem?

[dogorman]

I have a buddy who has just been bitten by the HT bug. He's thinking about a second-hand Classe SSP-25 and CAV 75, and he wants me (the supposed expert -- yeah, right) to vet the choice for him. Since I'm not familiar with Classe gear, first-hand, I've spent the first half of the weekend surveying the review literature, and the sound of the stuff would seem to be first-rate, but there do seem to be some unnerving themes regarding performance and reliability issues.

Does anyone have a SSP-25 (or an SSP-75, since that's undoubtedly what my friend will talk himself into sooner or later), and/or a CAV 75 or CAV 150, and care to comment on the performance / reliability rating for these products?

[Mr Peabody]

I haven't owned Classe, we do have a local dealer and I've heard a fair sampling of the stuff. I'm not aware of any reliability problems. The SSP-25 may be lacking in much of the newer features though. This lack of modern HT could go for most of the "high end" processors at this point as well.

[dogorman]

Mr. Peabody, how do you like your AV-5125? I'm still casting around for just the right amplification for my Linn speakers (Ninkas up front) -- with a series of requirements that are probably all but incompatible: Inner detail resolution, quick rhythm and pacing, black-as-night noise floor, slight forward lean without being harsh or grainy, great soundstage, and no bugs or quirks or reliability problems, with an eye toward not having to throw anything out when making the switch to H/T. (I can't have an all-music system in a separate room, not enough space.)

I thought I had it with a Naim Nait5i (which can be set to function as the front amp channels in an HT system) but the Nait is just a tad too hissy and more than a tad too quirky and buggy -- plus it's a little small. About six months ago I had a Linn AV-5105 that didn't impress, particularly at the bottom-end, where I heard a distinct lack of control.

But after trying Naim and Arcam and Rotel, I find myself gravitating back to Linn for another chance, specifically with designs on trying either an LK-140 (which I could replicate ad infinitum as my system expanded, including with Aktiv boards), or an AV-5125, which carries the distinct advantage of being all five channels in one gulp. At least one member of a different forum said the AV-5125 sounded tizzy in the high registers, especially with percussion sibilants such as symbols and snare drums.

Other possibilities (stereo *or* multichannel) include EAD, McCormack, Odyssey, NuForce, or, at the very limit of even the pre-owned budget, Pass Labs.

Any thoughts you have would be greatly appreciated; you've always been generous with me in the department of rendering thoughtful and well-tailored advice.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't really listen to a lot of music through that system. To me the top end can be pronounced at times but It remains clean and I've not been fatigued by it. I've listened to music videos on satelite, some music DVD's and all my movies sound good. The midrange is very good and the amp is detailed. If I personally had to take points away it would be the very lower octaves lack of control or detail. It's odd, the amp can walk a bass guitar line and sound good but way down low it just seems to lose it. The very low octaves remind me some of the bass I get from my Velodyne sub, so I thought it could be a character of the design. The amp and sub blend well that way though. I have heard other digital amps with incredible bass control. It fulfills it's power rating without a problem. That was an eye opener that a 11 pound amp can really deliver that kind of power. For the purpose I use the 5125 for I like it a lot. I haven't heard the 5105 but from what you describe I'm afraid they may be similar in character. I blamed the slight brightness on the Primare but I haven't had the 5125 hooked to any other preamp.

I'm surprised you didn't like the Arcam. I forgot what you said about it. If it's in your budget I'd suggest a Krell. I have heard good things about Odyssey. I haven't heard McCormack but the dealer I was talking with and comparing brands described them as forward and I believe they are supposed to also have a good grip in the low end. Back to the digital amps, Feanor really raves about the Monarchy monoblocks. You could try a pair and if they worked out add amps as you do speakers. I hope this helps some.

[bobsticks]

Much to my dealer's chagrin we watched a Classe cd-102 regurgitate every disc fed to it. Granted, this is a sample of one but it didn't leave a very good impression...shame too, the accompanying system consisted of a Classe 700 preamp and a Mac 2102 Anniversary Edition fed into ML Summits. Coulda been a contender...

[Mr Peabody]

I hope they aren't experimenting with having stuff built off shore. I did hear from a sales rep that several high end companies received a bad batch of transports that left egg on many o face. But I thought that was either last year or the year before. This wasn't widely known but it effected big names such as even Krell. This was given as also part of the reason high end companies are staying out of the format war, this snafu costed them big and backing a loser could put them on the ropes. Of course, many higher end companies only do the fraction of the volume of a mass market manufacturer so backing a loser by itself could put a smaller high end company on the ropes any way.

[pixelthis]

I hope they aren't experimenting with having stuff built off shore. I did hear from a sales rep that several high end companies received a bad batch of transports that left egg on many o face. But I thought that was either last year or the year before. This wasn't widely known but it effected big names such as even Krell. This was given as also part of the reason high end companies are staying out of the format war, this snafu costed them big and backing a loser could put them on the ropes. Of course, many higher end companies only do the fraction of the volume of a mass market manufacturer so backing a loser by itself could put a smaller high end company on the ropes any way.

Classe has started building their stuff in China.
When NAD started this nonsense (in a deal with rotel and harmon) I read a review
of a product of this effort, a NAD dvd player.
THE REVIEWER had to get three copies before he could get one that lasted the entire review.
I went back to my 602s2 speakers because they are made in ENGLAND,
I had an entire set fo KLIPSCH , if I had known that they had been built in China I wouldnt
have bothered, the cheap vinyl was shreding off the back in a year.
I can understand that production has to go offshore to some extent in order for
a wider dispersion of wealth, but high end audio products require meticulous quality,
and in general China isnt ready for prime time.
Now Cambridge has decent stuff from China, but they have a hong kong office
and the long relationship between the English and the Chinese to help.
You can't just go in, build a factory, and turn out high end gear overnight.
THE REASON CLASSE , Mcintosh, and others got so famous for producing such classics is because of the craftsmern they had working with them, kinda hard to clone that.
A RCA dvd player on a tin wraparound chassis is one thing, a high end piece of audio gear is a different kettle of fish entirely:1:

[Mr Peabody]

If that is so, I would agree companies like Classe have an expected standard, their product is much more expensive than mass market and they don't do the volume of mass market, so I don't see the need for them to go off shore except for pure greed. We didn't see any price drop. Cheaper labor, more profit, more in their pocket. If they do have reliability problems they got what they deserve.

[pixelthis]

If that is so, I would agree companies like Classe have an expected standard, their product is much more expensive than mass market and they don't do the volume of mass market, so I don't see the need for them to go off shore except for pure greed. We didn't see any price drop. Cheaper labor, more profit, more in their pocket. If they do have reliability problems they got what they deserve.

Touche.
THEY THINK WITH PROPER MARKETING (designed in America but made in China)
that they can sell the cheaper stuff, but I think that the high fidelity consumer is going to be a bit more discerning than joe sixpack buying a DVD player at Walmart:1:

[dogorman]

Well I came to the right place with my question about Classe, no doubt. (I'd also heard from other forums that I might not like the sound either -- a little too fat.)

After much hemming and hawing I bit a little bit more of the bullet than I'd been biting up to now, and went for a demo-unit McCormack DNA-HT5 (five channels) for its reputed grip and soundstage and Naim-like pacing. (I'd still be with Naim if they hadn't turned out to be so durned buggy.)

The problem now becomes the pre/pro and 2-channel preamp, which I'd been planning to get as separate pieces since H/T sound is so cruddy anyway, and pre-pros that can handle two-channel music are so ess-penn-seeve. On the two channel side, a member of another forum suggested that I go passive for the best match with the McCormack, and in my research I've tripped over the Channel Islands Audio PLC-1, which appealed because it has a remote and a H/T bypass. The wrinkle is that there are more than a few posts suggesting passives can sound constricted, reedy, and/or uninvolving -- and apparently there are different design architectures that are either more or less likely to suffer each of those complaints in turn. (Matching is also a bigger deal with passives, obviously, but this much I think I can ask the company.)

On the H/T side I was thinking of the Outlaw 970 (also new) because it's relatively inexpensive and the company is known for its customer service. Again, I no longer feel as though the best way for me to go is with a high-end pre/pro whose expense is justified by its ability to handle 2-channel audio. I think my H/T rig is pretty mid-fi, and I'd like to get off this merry-go-round as quickly as possible.

Any further thoughts you may have are welcomed and greatly appreciated....

[Mr Peabody]

Do you already have the McCormack? If so, or when you get it, be sure to give us some feedback. You might try posting a passive pre thread, Estat and Hermanv are very knowledgeable in that area.

Last I checked the Outlaw was not up to date with HDMi. This may only be important if you want to eventually go Blu-ray. BR only allows upsampling and 1080p via HDMI and HDMI can also pass PCM multichannel or HD audio bitstream depending on the machine. A solution could be using the multichannel analog inputs and let the player do the decoding. With all of this you have to read the features carefully, some will pass the bitstream for instance but can't decode it. Except for a couple processors they are mostly lagging behind receivers as far as the latest HD updates, or rips, depending on how you view it. The Integra RTC 9.8 and Onkyo Pro 885 are ready to go at about $1,800.00 give or take. I forget the Emotiva feature list but they are another direct online retailer like Outlaw and people seem to say good things about them.

My processor is a bit outdated, if the Marantz AV8002 is worth it's salt I may be switching sometime this summer.

[dogorman]

I've been content to leave video switching to my television, since I only have one theater-grade source anyway and the rest is midfi stuff from ten or fifteen years ago.

The McCormack hasn't arrived yet but I've since acquired a NuForce AVP17 for processing duties, so I plan to at least try that before shelling out any extra dough to handle my two-channel inputs through a separate passive.

There's one thing I can't quite figure out: Everyone agrees the McCormack piece was conceived to be mated with a passive (it's got an input sensitivity of 1v and an input impedance of 150k ohms), but as far as I can tell, there ain't no such thing as a "passive surround processor." Even McCormack's own MAP-1 is active (and it isn't a processor per se, anyway), and indeed adds what seems rather a lot of gain (56db) to be connected to such a racy amp.

As things stand I'm planning to try the NuForce, presumably with the trim levels set about as low as they'll go, and if there's still a lot of hiss then I'll come back to the question of how to tame it.