An Open Letter to All Members [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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emaidel
02-27-2008, 11:28 AM
I dont' know why this is so, but I seem to have an innate ability to bring out the worst in some people. It's not something I consciously do, but it still somehow manages to happen.

When I joined AR, I had just been banned from "another" site, and wrongfully used AR as a sounding board to state my dissatisfaction with that site. Rightfully, I was informed that such was "bad form," and my posts were deleted. I rarely ever mention that "other" site, unless someone else mentions it first. If anyone's really interested in why I'm not there anymore, just send me a PM, and I'll give you all the gory details.

When I post a thread here, or a comment to another's thread, I generally do so with the purpose of providing useful information. Either I'm relying on my experience in the industry, or my personal listening experiences over the years to make the comments and judgements that I do.

If, for example, I send the woofers of my Dahlquist DQ-10's to a facility in Florida for a refoam, and that facility takes over 8 weeks to complete the repair, and sends the woofers back with a significant defect, that then becomes information readers of this site need to know about. If I then take those "repaired" woofers, and send them off to Regnar in N.Y. for a complete rebuild (for three times the money), and get them back in outstanding condition in less than two weeks, resulting in my DQ-10's sounding better than ever, then that too is noteworthy. So too, is the first outfit's statement that "we stand by our work," and then refusing to refund the $80 I paid them for a sloppy job.

If I spend $80 on a digital coax cable to connect my CD player to my DAC, and it sounds noticeably better in all respects than another one costing more than twice as much, that's worth posting too. So too is posting my stunned observations as to the significant sonic improvements the "Achromat" turnable mat makes.

If I purchase a used turntable on ebay, and receive it in near mint condition, with not one, but two perfectly functioning Shure cartridges, and then discover that the turntable winds up being the best sounding one I've ever owned, that becomes news worthy of shouting from the rooftops. And, it also provides a modicum of credibility for making purchases on ebay.

While I'm 63, and spent close to 40 years in the industry, the old adage still holds: I may grow older, but I don't necesssarily grow up. Little ticks me off more than someone disputing what I've stated, not just because they disagree (which anyone has a right to), but because they accuse me of being a liar, making up stories as I go along, and, for reasons that have totally eluded me, calling me a coward as well, then I, unfortunately, allow my ego to take over, and I respond with an equally nasty post of my own.

AR is not the place for such stuff, no matter how justified I, or others may think. My experience should give a modicum of credibility to much of what I have to say, but, since I've been retired now for almost 8 years, I know that many things have changed. I know nothing whatsoever about the interface between one's computer, and one's home audio system, and so I never dare post a comment on any such related thread.

I know cartridges very well, but not any of the newer, very expensive moving coil models, all of which I suspect would dazzle me if I were to buy one and install it in my tonearm. I've frequently heaped praise on the Stanton Collector's Series CS-100 I own because, after extended listening tests between it and many other cartridges, I prefer its sound. Some of those "others" are: Shure V/15 Type V Mxr, Ortofon MC-20 MKII, and Denon DL-103D - all fairly stiff competition for sure. To off-handedly dismiss the CS-100, without ever having heard it, is just wrong.

So, to any who may have found my posts offensive in any way, I sincerely apologize, with one very noticeable exception (see, I told you I don't have to grow up!). To those of you who feel what I have to offer is worthwhile, and interesting reading, then I hope to continue in that vein in the future.

In the meantime, happy reading, either from me, or others here at AR.

SlumpBuster
02-27-2008, 12:16 PM
Emaidel, I have no idea what you're talking about... and I mean that as a compliment.

If there has been some nastyness between you and other members, then I have missed it. I enjoy your posts and always viewed you as a voice from the reasonable middle, so to say. Even if I didn't come to know your CV through your posts, your advice carries the mark of experience.

Stay around, stay vocal, stay polite, and there are no worries. Right?

GMichael
02-27-2008, 12:21 PM
Huh? I don't remember seeing you argue with anyone. Was I out that day?

Feanor
02-27-2008, 12:22 PM
I dont' know why this is so, but I seem to have an innate ability to bring out the worst in some people. It's not something I consciously do, but it still somehow manages to happen.
..

In the meantime, happy reading, either from me, or others here at AR.

Well I haven't notice that you bring out the worst in people. (There are a few here who are quite good at that: no names mentioned :D) Personally I've enjoyed everything you've written. Keep up the good work.

markw
02-27-2008, 12:24 PM
You're doing fine and contribute greatly here with your experience.

You're only human and, as such, we sometimes respond to outside stimuli as it responds to us.

Whatever you're doing, keep it up. It's working.

emaidel
02-27-2008, 01:25 PM
Emaidel, I have no idea what you're talking about... and I mean that as a compliment.

If there has been some nastyness between you and other members, then I have missed it. I enjoy your posts and always viewed you as a voice from the reasonable middle, so to say. Even if I didn't come to know your CV through your posts, your advice carries the mark of experience.

Stay around, stay vocal, stay polite, and there are no worries. Right?

Check out the analog room thread, "Cartridge Help?" and you'll see what I'm talking about. I suspect you'll find it quite interesting!

Actually, a better thread to read to understand my point is , "WHY is belt drive better, or is it? in the analog room also. That thread wound up being locked as a result of the same poster's mannerisms.

emaidel
02-27-2008, 01:26 PM
Huh? I don't remember seeing you argue with anyone. Was I out that day?

See my response above to slumpbuster.

emaidel
02-27-2008, 01:27 PM
Well I haven't notice that you bring out the worst in people. (There are a few here who are quite good at that: no names mentioned :D) Personally I've enjoyed everything you've written. Keep up the good work.


Check out the last two posts here from me, and in particular, the one about the "WHY is belt drive better, or is it?" thread. Have fun reading!

JohnMichael
02-27-2008, 03:07 PM
I am so glad to have another turntable tweaker on the forums. The post that had to be locked down I never thought was due to anything you might have posted. I still shake my head over that one.:frown2:

Luvin Da Blues
02-27-2008, 03:37 PM
I always enjoy your posts emaidel, keep 'em coming.

Always good to hear from another vinyl guy.

emaidel
02-27-2008, 03:54 PM
Actually, I'm not a vinyl guy. Despite my enthusiasm for my Dual CS-5000, the Stanton Collector's Series CS-100 installed in it, the Parasound PPH-100 phono preamp it's connected to and the new Achromat mat I purchased for it, I still prefer the sound of CD's. I'm continually impressed as to how good records still sound, especially considering the age of most of mine, but the ever present snap, crackle and pop drives me nuts. I'm an avid classical music fan, and it was the CD that opened up my appreciation for that kind of music, starting with the first player I purchased back in '83, since, for the first time in my life, I could listen to a classical recording, and not have to listen through the noise to hear the music.

Still, like most tinkerers, there's not too much you can do to a CD player or transport, other than try different interconnects, as I have. With a turntable, you can try different cartridges, different tonearm wiring, different mats, record clamps, etc., etc. It's still fun to do something different (such as purchasing the Achromat) and listening to the improvement it makes. There's nothing like that I can do for my CD changer, as any of the "stablizers" simply won't work in it. And, I"m not a believer in "magic pebbles" either.

O'Shag
02-27-2008, 05:55 PM
Emaidel,

Your first observation about having a way of sometimes getting under people's skin is understandable. You seem like a well spoken and intelligent individual. Some of your information is very interesting and informative, but based on older technology. I must confess that you got under my skin twice. In the best of spirits I responded to one of your threads, where you started by saying you were turning 63. I posted a picture of my TT and you responded with a question. In response I wished you well and with good will suggested a few things for health given your middle age. Even if you disagreed with me or thought what I said was nonsense, you should have recognized what was offered was out of kindness of spirit. It took me 10 minutes to respond to you, you responded to my with one word; Blechhh. I thought what anyone would think in the face of suce a response - what a jerk... The second instance you were taking of the merits of the Stanton CS-100 cartridge, expecting people to read your long post. I asked you a question, to which you yet again responded with one word; Nope.
If people take the time to read your posts, and take their time to respond with politness and in good spirit; then have the decency to respond in kind , and not some blowoff that is by nature rather rude. I am a busy man. I am going to be 45 years old this year. I own a successful business and have 20 employees of my own. My time is just as limited and valuable as yours. I happen to have a great deal of experience in designing and building audio systems ( I will be posting pictures of my own system soon) because it has been a passion for years, and when I offer my insight or respond to someone, I expect the same courtesy in kind. I think thats only fair, don't you?

emaidel
02-27-2008, 06:45 PM
Emaidel,

Your first observation about having a way of sometimes getting under people's skin is understandable. You seem like a well spoken and intelligent individual. Some of your information is very interesting and informative, but based on older technology. I must confess that you got under my skin twice. In the best of spirits I responded to one of your threads, where you started by saying you were turning 63. I posted a picture of my TT and you responded with a question. In response I wished you well and with good will suggested a few things for health given your middle age. Even if you disagreed with me or thought what I said was nonsense, you should have recognized what was offered was out of kindness of spirit. It took me 10 minutes to respond to you, you responded to my with one word; Blechhh. I thought what anyone would think in the face of suce a response - what a jerk... The second instance you were taking of the merits of the Stanton CS-100 cartridge, expecting people to read your long post. I asked you a question, to which you yet again responded with one word; Nope.
If people take the time to read your posts, and take their time to respond with politness and in good spirit; then have the decency to respond in kind , and not some blowoff that is by nature rather rude. I am a busy man. I am going to be 45 years old this year. I own a successful business and have 20 employees of my own. My time is just as limited and valuable as yours. I happen to have a great deal of experience in designing and building audio systems ( I will be posting pictures of my own system soon) because it has been a passion for years, and when I offer my insight or respond to someone, I expect the same courtesy in kind. I think thats only fair, don't you?

I think you're being a bit too thin-skinned, my friend. My one-word responses that you're referring to were not meant to be the insults you took them to be, so if that's how you interpreted them, I'd have to say I'm sorry for that.

Mr Peabody
02-27-2008, 09:01 PM
I for one am not afraid to say you brought out the worst in me, thanks for the scape goat. "Emaidel, made me do it!"

Florian
02-27-2008, 11:52 PM
As long as you dont post something like i have in the "steel cage" your fine ;-)

audio amateur
02-28-2008, 04:21 AM
As long as you dont post something like i have in the "steel cage" your fine ;-)
I was looking for that one:D brings back memories

Florian
02-28-2008, 04:34 AM
Holy crap! Here it is.... OUCH

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=15490

I just reread it.... quite emberassing.. but some points are still valid :-)

emaidel
02-28-2008, 05:11 AM
I for one am not afraid to say you brought out the worst in me, thanks for the scape goat. "Emaidel, made me do it!"

That's the spirit! Glad to be of service!

johnny p
02-28-2008, 06:56 AM
"why Ike, are we no longer friends???? Ya' Know Ike, if I thought we weren't friends, I don't think I could bear it"

SlumpBuster
02-28-2008, 07:16 AM
Actually, I'm not a vinyl guy.

Oh, really? In that case I withdraw my support. You should be banned.:cornut:

SlumpBuster
02-28-2008, 07:26 AM
I just reread it.... quite emberassing.. but some points are still valid :-)

Yeah, especially that part about Goldmund vs. Toshiba transports. No difference at all. They both have Phillips guts. :cornut:

GMichael
02-28-2008, 08:13 AM
Holy crap! Here it is.... OUCH

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=15490

I just reread it.... quite emberassing.. but some points are still valid :-)

Muwahahahahaahahaha.... Still one of the funniest posts even IMO. Thanks for the walk down memory lane Flo. You sure have changed.

Oh, and I still like my Yamaha receiver. :incazzato:

SlumpBuster
02-28-2008, 08:30 AM
Emaidel, I finally read the threads in question. If it was AK that you were banned from, then that's cool. I got banned from AK too. I still don't know why. The best I can tell is that maybe someone took offense to my name, which is a salty old sports reference.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-28-2008, 10:11 AM
Holy crap! Here it is.... OUCH

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=15490

I just reread it.... quite emberassing.. but some points are still valid :-)

I remember this thread, wasn't that the day we were picking cactus needles out of yer bum? The censors were sure busy on that post.

I really miss Resident Loser. I had some good debates with him, some contentious, but always fun.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-28-2008, 10:15 AM
I dont' know why this is so, but I seem to have an innate ability to bring out the worst in some people. It's not something I consciously do, but it still somehow manages to happen.

When I joined AR, I had just been banned from "another" site, and wrongfully used AR as a sounding board to state my dissatisfaction with that site. Rightfully, I was informed that such was "bad form," and my posts were deleted. I rarely ever mention that "other" site, unless someone else mentions it first. If anyone's really interested in why I'm not there anymore, just send me a PM, and I'll give you all the gory details.

When I post a thread here, or a comment to another's thread, I generally do so with the purpose of providing useful information. Either I'm relying on my experience in the industry, or my personal listening experiences over the years to make the comments and judgements that I do.

If, for example, I send the woofers of my Dahlquist DQ-10's to a facility in Florida for a refoam, and that facility takes over 8 weeks to complete the repair, and sends the woofers back with a significant defect, that then becomes information readers of this site need to know about. If I then take those "repaired" woofers, and send them off to Regnar in N.Y. for a complete rebuild (for three times the money), and get them back in outstanding condition in less than two weeks, resulting in my DQ-10's sounding better than ever, then that too is noteworthy. So too, is the first outfit's statement that "we stand by our work," and then refusing to refund the $80 I paid them for a sloppy job.

If I spend $80 on a digital coax cable to connect my CD player to my DAC, and it sounds noticeably better in all respects than another one costing more than twice as much, that's worth posting too. So too is posting my stunned observations as to the significant sonic improvements the "Achromat" turnable mat makes.

If I purchase a used turntable on ebay, and receive it in near mint condition, with not one, but two perfectly functioning Shure cartridges, and then discover that the turntable winds up being the best sounding one I've ever owned, that becomes news worthy of shouting from the rooftops. And, it also provides a modicum of credibility for making purchases on ebay.

While I'm 63, and spent close to 40 years in the industry, the old adage still holds: I may grow older, but I don't necesssarily grow up. Little ticks me off more than someone disputing what I've stated, not just because they disagree (which anyone has a right to), but because they accuse me of being a liar, making up stories as I go along, and, for reasons that have totally eluded me, calling me a coward as well, then I, unfortunately, allow my ego to take over, and I respond with an equally nasty post of my own.

AR is not the place for such stuff, no matter how justified I, or others may think. My experience should give a modicum of credibility to much of what I have to say, but, since I've been retired now for almost 8 years, I know that many things have changed. I know nothing whatsoever about the interface between one's computer, and one's home audio system, and so I never dare post a comment on any such related thread.

I know cartridges very well, but not any of the newer, very expensive moving coil models, all of which I suspect would dazzle me if I were to buy one and install it in my tonearm. I've frequently heaped praise on the Stanton Collector's Series CS-100 I own because, after extended listening tests between it and many other cartridges, I prefer its sound. Some of those "others" are: Shure V/15 Type V Mxr, Ortofon MC-20 MKII, and Denon DL-103D - all fairly stiff competition for sure. To off-handedly dismiss the CS-100, without ever having heard it, is just wrong.

So, to any who may have found my posts offensive in any way, I sincerely apologize, with one very noticeable exception (see, I told you I don't have to grow up!). To those of you who feel what I have to offer is worthwhile, and interesting reading, then I hope to continue in that vein in the future.

In the meantime, happy reading, either from me, or others here at AR.

Meh, you are tame compared to me. My delivery is as smooth as steel wool, everyone is just pleased after I post something.

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 10:17 AM
I remember this thread, wasn't that the day we were picking cactus needles out of yer bum? The censors were sure busy on that post.

I really miss Resident Loser. I had some good debates with him, some contentious, but always fun.
I've said the same thing many many times Sir T. There were some great contributions from him in that thread. May sound corny, but he was in many ways a mentor for me here on the forums.

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 10:19 AM
Meh, you are tame compared to me. My delivery is as smooth as steel wool, everyone is just pleased after I post something.
I wish you would start being nice to pix...

Groundbeef
02-28-2008, 10:40 AM
Meh, you are tame compared to me. My delivery is as smooth as steel wool, everyone is just pleased after I post something.

Actually, I was thinking your delivery is received as well as 80 grit sandpaper on a fresh case of road rash. Of course it depends upon the recipient. More times than not, a hammer would have done nicely.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-28-2008, 10:48 AM
I wish you would start being nice to pix...

Hell no!!! I want to sandpaper him to dust. I probably should be nicer to nightliar though.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-28-2008, 10:51 AM
Actually, I was thinking your delivery is received as well as 80 grit sandpaper on a fresh case of road rash. Of course it depends upon the recipient. More times than not, a hammer would have done nicely.

Hammer too easy, sandpaper......road rash......can't be good....must continue....maybe find virgin skin untouched by road rash....hammer=mess......no mess just pain.......need reprogramming.....

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 10:57 AM
Hell no!!! I want to sandpaper him to dust. I probably should be nicer to nightliar though.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'll tell ya, I didn't think this site's s/w was be able to handle so much text in one post! You must either have special posting priveleges or you've found a way to hack around the character limitation threshold. In some of those posts, my up-down scroll bar was so thin I could hardly grab it. Great reading nonetheless. :cornut:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-28-2008, 11:05 AM
I've said the same thing many many times Sir T. There were some great contributions from him in that thread. May sound corny, but he was in many ways a mentor for me here on the forums.

He may not have been always up to date with his knowledge about HT, but he was practical, logical, and very reasonable, and that is what I liked about him most.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-28-2008, 11:17 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'll tell ya, I didn't think this site's s/w was be able to handle so much text in one post! You must either have special posting priveleges or you've found a way to hack around the character limitation threshold. In some of those posts, my up-down scroll bar was so thin I could hardly grab it. Great reading nonetheless. :cornut:

And to think, as long as the post were, they only took me about 5 minutes to think it up, and type it. He called me names I have never even heard of.

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 11:23 AM
T, I have a mind sometime to assemble a list of all your references to pix and post them in the Off Topic forum. Some of those are hands down the funniest names I've ever come across. And you know how I feel about "pixeless".

Funny stuff. :lol:

JSE
02-28-2008, 11:44 AM
I dont' know why this is so, but I seem to have an innate ability to bring out the worst in some people. It's not something I consciously do, but it still somehow manages to happen.


Like others have mentioned, don't worry about it. Your stuff has been tame compared to past threads around here. I've been called just about every name there is at one point or another by various past and even some present members. Some of the name calling was probably justified. :ihih: I have actually been really laid back the last couple of years.

As long as you don't lie, you will be fine. True Liars tend to get run pretty quickly around here. Having strong opinions just adds to the spice of these forums. Nothing wrong with that.

audio amateur
02-28-2008, 12:00 PM
Meh, you are tame compared to me. My delivery is as smooth as steel wool, everyone is just pleased after I post something.
Throwin' flowers at ourselves are we?:ciappa:

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 12:02 PM
I have actually been really laid back the last couple of years.
Yeah, just look at his post count.

He he he, ha ha ha, ho ho ho!

Funny eh?

JSE
02-28-2008, 12:21 PM
Yeah, just look at his post count.

He he he, ha ha ha, ho ho ho!

Funny eh?


I'm pretty sure my post count from the old system/format was set back to zero after a change over many years ago. If I could add that count to my current count, I would be ahead of you! :idea:

Besides, it's a quality over quantity thing or me. I don't just blab my mouth every chance I get like soooome people of this, cough, cough, gm, cough, cough board. :ciappa:

GMichael
02-28-2008, 12:24 PM
I'm pretty sure my post count from the old system/format was set back to zero after a change over many years ago. If I could add that count to my current count, I would be ahead of you! :idea:

Besides, it's a quality over quantity thing or me. I don't just blab my mouth every chance I get like soooome people of this, cough, cough, gm, cough, cough board. :ciappa:

Hey! Knock that off. It's not my fault that you've been slacking lately. Maybe if we brought Lex back you'd have someone else to pick on.

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 12:34 PM
Hey! Knock that off. It's not my fault that you've been stacking lately. Maybe if we brought Lex back you'd have someone else to pick on.
What does "stacking" mean (in this context)? Is he stacking pies or something?

I'm pretty sure my post count from the old system/format was set back to zero after a change over many years ago. If I could add that count to my current count, I would be ahead of you! :idea:

Besides, it's a quality over quantity thing or me.
OKAY JSE! No need to get your panties in a wad! (I love that expression :biggrin5: )


:ihih:

GMichael
02-28-2008, 12:45 PM
What does "stacking" mean (in this context)? Is he stacking pies or something?

OKAY JSE! No need to get your panties in a wad! (I love that expression :biggrin5: )


:ihih:

OK OK, so you found another typo by me. What's that, 2 in the last 2 days?

Are you wadding up J's panties? That's just.... just... a little squishy.

JSE
02-28-2008, 12:50 PM
What does "stacking" mean (in this context)? Is he stacking pies or something?

OKAY JSE! No need to get your panties in a wad! (I love that expression :biggrin5: )


:ihih:


Mmmmmmmm....... Pie!

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 01:08 PM
Isn't if fun that we have the uncanny ability to drive even the most serious threads...

Right into the ground!!!

pixelthis
02-28-2008, 04:27 PM
Emaidel, I have no idea what you're talking about... and I mean that as a compliment.

If there has been some nastyness between you and other members, then I have missed it. I enjoy your posts and always viewed you as a voice from the reasonable middle, so to say. Even if I didn't come to know your CV through your posts, your advice carries the mark of experience.

Stay around, stay vocal, stay polite, and there are no worries. Right?

I have a good idea of what hes talking about.
He referred to a banned member with Nazi tendencies, and compared ME to him, implying that I was a Nazi also.
This is one of the most offensive things that has ever happened to me and I am still waiting for my apology.
Nazis, past, present, (hopefully not the future) are the scum of the earth,
and I dont appreciate being compared to one

GMichael
02-28-2008, 04:46 PM
I have a good idea of what hes talking about.
He referred to a banned member with Nazi tendencies, and compared ME to him, implying that I was a Nazi also.
This is one of the most offensive things that has ever happened to me and I am still waiting for my apology.
Nazis, past, present, (hopefully not the future) are the scum of the earth,
and I dont appreciate being compared to one

Dude,

You do realize that he was just comparing one troll to another, not their methods.

Oh, and sorry about calling you a troll. You've been very good lately and don't want to get you started. All in good fun you know.

SlumpBuster
02-28-2008, 05:00 PM
This is one of the most offensive things that has ever happened to me and I am still waiting for my apology.

Really? You do realize this is an internet forum, right?!? I don't think I could be offended by anything anyone ever said about me on an internet forum, let alone have it be one of the most offensive things ever. Go buy Call of Duty 2 and get it out of your system. FYI, this is how reasonable people, even forum participants, ultimately view forums:

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/picture/sk84ever515/Forum.jpg

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-28-2008, 05:01 PM
Someone called pixelout a nazi.....Waaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha.........LOLOL. ..gulp.....waaaahahahahahahah..... whoever did it, rock on LOL

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-28-2008, 05:04 PM
Isn't if fun that we have the uncanny ability to drive even the most serious threads...

Right into the ground!!!

And you do this without a drivers license(drum hit) Got a million of em.....

emaidel
02-28-2008, 07:55 PM
I have a good idea of what hes talking about.
He referred to a banned member with Nazi tendencies, and compared ME to him, implying that I was a Nazi also.



Never did any such thing, and even said so, but you still persist in believing this. Oh well, not much I can do there.

I was talking to another member about a different troll on these pages, and that member came up with a name for that troll that had me falling down laughing: he called him a leaky sphincter. Somehow, seems pretty fitting for you too, don't you think?

Then, what also comes to mind is all the fuss when Olestra was being test marketed, and certain folks believed it caused a rather disgustingly described gastric upset called, "anal leakage." Even TIME magazine gave the term "anal leakage" accolades for being one of the worst new terms to be created for that same year. Personally, I can't think of a better description of your posts.

What else comes out of a leaky sphincter anyway?

bobsticks
02-28-2008, 08:17 PM
Never did any such thing, and even said so, but you still persist in believing this. Oh well, not much I can do there.

I was talking to another member about a different troll on these pages, and that member came up with a name for that troll that had me falling down laughing: he called him a leaky sphincter. Somehow, seems pretty fitting for you too, don't you think?

Then, what also comes to mind is all the fuss when Olestra was being test marketed, and certain folks believed it caused a rather disgustingly described gastric upset called, "anal leakage." Even TIME magazine gave the term "anal leakage" accolades for being one of the worst new terms to be created for that same year. Personally, I can't think of a better description of your posts.

What else comes out of a leaky sphincter anyway?

Now that's some funny stuff.

Emaidel, I thought about your post at lunch today and came to a conclusion---you and I have very little in common. But, in a good way, if you will.

Being a bit younger than most 'round these parts I missed the "Golden Age" of audio. I'll never get to experience so many of the pieces considered "classic". Further, most of my contemporaries don't really listen to music...that rhythm and timbre and beat and pace may be occuring around them is a happy circumstance of having some equipment turned on, and quality is not an overiding concern.

I love your posts and if I don't always contribute to your threads it's because I don't have alot to offer...but I hope you stick around. And, a certain amount of disagreement is to be expected when dealing with something so opinion-based. I feel the rest of us would be none-the-better if your viewpoints were absent from these here pages.

Peace

Mr Peabody
02-28-2008, 08:33 PM
Emaidel could be a shrink, it didn't take him long to diagnose Pix. Now if he had the cure.

Slumpster sometimes you can be down right profound.

emaidel
02-29-2008, 03:56 AM
Now that's some funny stuff.

Emaidel, I thought about your post at lunch today and came to a conclusion---you and I have very little in common. But, in a good way, if you will.

Being a bit younger than most 'round these parts I missed the "Golden Age" of audio. I'll never get to experience so many of the pieces considered "classic". Further, most of my contemporaries don't really listen to music...that rhythm and timbre and beat and pace may be occuring around them is a happy circumstance of having some equipment turned on, and quality is not an overiding concern.

I love your posts and if I don't always contribute to your threads it's because I don't have alot to offer...but I hope you stick around. And, a certain amount of disagreement is to be expected when dealing with something so opinion-based. I feel the rest of us would be none-the-better if your viewpoints were absent from these here pages.

Peace

That's very kind of you. Thank you. I really had no plans to leave - I only "left" that "other" site because someone else made me do so, but then, as has been evident from some posts here, I'm in good company.

emaidel
02-29-2008, 03:58 AM
Emaidel could be a shrink, it didn't take him long to diagnose Pix. Now if he had the cure..

I have to be fair: I have to give full credit for leaky sphincter to someone else. Priceless, don't you think?

audio amateur
02-29-2008, 04:41 AM
So if I understand correctly, we've come to the conclusion that pix' posts equate to 'anal leakage'?
Hmm that's not very flattering

Rich-n-Texas
02-29-2008, 05:53 AM
Anal leakage?

I rely heavily on my Depends these days.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-29-2008, 09:46 AM
Emaidel could be a shrink, it didn't take him long to diagnose Pix. Now if he had the cure.

Slumpster sometimes you can be down right profound.

Mr. P, you cannot cure something that is a result of many generations of in breeding. We are stuck with pixelneck, and the best thing we can do is ignore the little wart, or get some wart remover.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-29-2008, 09:50 AM
So if I understand correctly, we've come to the conclusion that pix' posts equate to 'anal leakage'?
Hmm that's not very flattering

Yeah, we have to get a bucket or a butt plug to deal with him. eeeewww did I just say that? :yesnod:

GMichael
02-29-2008, 10:37 AM
Yeah, we have to get a bucket or a butt plug to deal with him. eeeewww did I just say that? :yesnod:

Crazy glue.

audio amateur
02-29-2008, 10:40 AM
But then he'll just start barfing them up:D

GMichael
02-29-2008, 11:06 AM
Poor Pix. We pick on him all day while he's not around to defend himself.

Mr Peabody
02-29-2008, 06:53 PM
Look AR has a reputation to maintain, we can't keep allowing these outlaw posters on here that think they can come here when they get kicked off of other boards. Next thing you know it we'll become the Dodge City of the internet.

dean_martin
02-29-2008, 07:20 PM
I dont' know why this is so, but I seem to have an innate ability to bring out the worst in some people. It's not something I consciously do, but it still somehow manages to happen.

When I joined AR, I had just been banned from "another" site, and wrongfully used AR as a sounding board to state my dissatisfaction with that site. Rightfully, I was informed that such was "bad form," and my posts were deleted. I rarely ever mention that "other" site, unless someone else mentions it first. If anyone's really interested in why I'm not there anymore, just send me a PM, and I'll give you all the gory details.

When I post a thread here, or a comment to another's thread, I generally do so with the purpose of providing useful information. Either I'm relying on my experience in the industry, or my personal listening experiences over the years to make the comments and judgements that I do.

If, for example, I send the woofers of my Dahlquist DQ-10's to a facility in Florida for a refoam, and that facility takes over 8 weeks to complete the repair, and sends the woofers back with a significant defect, that then becomes information readers of this site need to know about. If I then take those "repaired" woofers, and send them off to Regnar in N.Y. for a complete rebuild (for three times the money), and get them back in outstanding condition in less than two weeks, resulting in my DQ-10's sounding better than ever, then that too is noteworthy. So too, is the first outfit's statement that "we stand by our work," and then refusing to refund the $80 I paid them for a sloppy job.

If I spend $80 on a digital coax cable to connect my CD player to my DAC, and it sounds noticeably better in all respects than another one costing more than twice as much, that's worth posting too. So too is posting my stunned observations as to the significant sonic improvements the "Achromat" turnable mat makes.

If I purchase a used turntable on ebay, and receive it in near mint condition, with not one, but two perfectly functioning Shure cartridges, and then discover that the turntable winds up being the best sounding one I've ever owned, that becomes news worthy of shouting from the rooftops. And, it also provides a modicum of credibility for making purchases on ebay.

While I'm 63, and spent close to 40 years in the industry, the old adage still holds: I may grow older, but I don't necesssarily grow up. Little ticks me off more than someone disputing what I've stated, not just because they disagree (which anyone has a right to), but because they accuse me of being a liar, making up stories as I go along, and, for reasons that have totally eluded me, calling me a coward as well, then I, unfortunately, allow my ego to take over, and I respond with an equally nasty post of my own.

AR is not the place for such stuff, no matter how justified I, or others may think. My experience should give a modicum of credibility to much of what I have to say, but, since I've been retired now for almost 8 years, I know that many things have changed. I know nothing whatsoever about the interface between one's computer, and one's home audio system, and so I never dare post a comment on any such related thread.

I know cartridges very well, but not any of the newer, very expensive moving coil models, all of which I suspect would dazzle me if I were to buy one and install it in my tonearm. I've frequently heaped praise on the Stanton Collector's Series CS-100 I own because, after extended listening tests between it and many other cartridges, I prefer its sound. Some of those "others" are: Shure V/15 Type V Mxr, Ortofon MC-20 MKII, and Denon DL-103D - all fairly stiff competition for sure. To off-handedly dismiss the CS-100, without ever having heard it, is just wrong.

So, to any who may have found my posts offensive in any way, I sincerely apologize, with one very noticeable exception (see, I told you I don't have to grow up!). To those of you who feel what I have to offer is worthwhile, and interesting reading, then I hope to continue in that vein in the future.

In the meantime, happy reading, either from me, or others here at AR.

Just don't leave. I'm probably the slowest person to respond to threads that interest me. By the time I had the time to add something to the belt-drive thread, it was locked down.

I'm still planning to share my experiences with a particular platter mat. I plan to post in your thread on the Achromat.

I also read your thread on your experiences in the industry with interest.

Stick around, be yourself, etc.

JohnMichael
02-29-2008, 07:24 PM
What else comes out of a leaky sphincter anyway?





Please do not make me tell you.

bobsticks
02-29-2008, 07:33 PM
Please do not make me tell you.


Will....not....take......cheap.....shot....









....aaaaaaagggghhhhhh....must leave....now

Rich-n-Texas
02-29-2008, 08:06 PM
This thread has gone through the ground and is now on its way to he!!

Sad, very very sad.

Mr Peabody
02-29-2008, 08:31 PM
ALRIGHT LET'S KEEP IT CLEAN IN HERE!!!!!

That means no one with leaky sphincters sits on the furniture.

bobsticks
02-29-2008, 09:00 PM
Far too much loose language on this board.

Mr Peabody
02-29-2008, 09:11 PM
Far too much loose language on this board.

It didn't look like it was language that was loose.

O'Shag
03-01-2008, 12:06 AM
Florian did go way over the top with that thread he referenced above, and I don't agree with the message and tone of it overall. But he does have a point in one respect, which is this. To give a qualified, valuable opinion, its helpful to know what a current state-fo-the-art high-end system can do for sound reproduction. This doesn't necessarily mean that one should own the best and most expensive components. As long as we have a baseline knowledge of whats possible with the best systems.. Its completely ok to own a modest entry level system - we all started there and built gradually. Its possible to be the best and most avid audiophile with a modest system. The important thing is to keep sight of the fact that the best components and systems can bring you a lot closer to the music than a moderate/ entry level system.

Ajani
03-01-2008, 02:08 AM
But then he'll just start barfing them up:D

If certain members of our forum are suffering from copremesis, we should be alot more sympathetic....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copremesis

Ajani
03-01-2008, 02:23 AM
I dont' know why this is so, but I seem to have an innate ability to bring out the worst in some people. It's not something I consciously do, but it still somehow manages to happen.

When I joined AR, I had just been banned from "another" site, and wrongfully used AR as a sounding board to state my dissatisfaction with that site. Rightfully, I was informed that such was "bad form," and my posts were deleted. I rarely ever mention that "other" site, unless someone else mentions it first. If anyone's really interested in why I'm not there anymore, just send me a PM, and I'll give you all the gory details.

When I post a thread here, or a comment to another's thread, I generally do so with the purpose of providing useful information. Either I'm relying on my experience in the industry, or my personal listening experiences over the years to make the comments and judgements that I do.

If, for example, I send the woofers of my Dahlquist DQ-10's to a facility in Florida for a refoam, and that facility takes over 8 weeks to complete the repair, and sends the woofers back with a significant defect, that then becomes information readers of this site need to know about. If I then take those "repaired" woofers, and send them off to Regnar in N.Y. for a complete rebuild (for three times the money), and get them back in outstanding condition in less than two weeks, resulting in my DQ-10's sounding better than ever, then that too is noteworthy. So too, is the first outfit's statement that "we stand by our work," and then refusing to refund the $80 I paid them for a sloppy job.

If I spend $80 on a digital coax cable to connect my CD player to my DAC, and it sounds noticeably better in all respects than another one costing more than twice as much, that's worth posting too. So too is posting my stunned observations as to the significant sonic improvements the "Achromat" turnable mat makes.

If I purchase a used turntable on ebay, and receive it in near mint condition, with not one, but two perfectly functioning Shure cartridges, and then discover that the turntable winds up being the best sounding one I've ever owned, that becomes news worthy of shouting from the rooftops. And, it also provides a modicum of credibility for making purchases on ebay.

While I'm 63, and spent close to 40 years in the industry, the old adage still holds: I may grow older, but I don't necesssarily grow up. Little ticks me off more than someone disputing what I've stated, not just because they disagree (which anyone has a right to), but because they accuse me of being a liar, making up stories as I go along, and, for reasons that have totally eluded me, calling me a coward as well, then I, unfortunately, allow my ego to take over, and I respond with an equally nasty post of my own.

AR is not the place for such stuff, no matter how justified I, or others may think. My experience should give a modicum of credibility to much of what I have to say, but, since I've been retired now for almost 8 years, I know that many things have changed. I know nothing whatsoever about the interface between one's computer, and one's home audio system, and so I never dare post a comment on any such related thread.

I know cartridges very well, but not any of the newer, very expensive moving coil models, all of which I suspect would dazzle me if I were to buy one and install it in my tonearm. I've frequently heaped praise on the Stanton Collector's Series CS-100 I own because, after extended listening tests between it and many other cartridges, I prefer its sound. Some of those "others" are: Shure V/15 Type V Mxr, Ortofon MC-20 MKII, and Denon DL-103D - all fairly stiff competition for sure. To off-handedly dismiss the CS-100, without ever having heard it, is just wrong.

So, to any who may have found my posts offensive in any way, I sincerely apologize, with one very noticeable exception (see, I told you I don't have to grow up!). To those of you who feel what I have to offer is worthwhile, and interesting reading, then I hope to continue in that vein in the future.

In the meantime, happy reading, either from me, or others here at AR.

Don't worry about it.... I suspect we've all pissed off a few forum members during our time on this site.... I'm sure I have

Keep in mind that Audio is probably one of the most subjective hobbies, so heated debates are inevitable...

Start a conversation about entry level amps from NAD, Cambridge Audio, Rotel and Marantz and you'll find members quarelling about which ones are total crap... actually you'll probably even hear a few 'they are all crap, buy a 40 year old brand x amp on audiogon for $50 instead'...

Start a thread about high end amps from Mark Levinson, McIntosh, Musical Fidelity and Krell and you'll see some serious equipment bashing occur.... Hell, I've even seen Krell refered to as 'mid-fi' not too long ago.....

And if you're feeling particularly arguementative, try discussing the sonic differences (or lack thereof) of cables and interconnects....

Mr Peabody
03-01-2008, 06:40 AM
Flo, O'Shag, Ajani and anyone else I might have missed who posted along their thought line on this board, a very valid point of having at least a point of reference or some experience hearing high end gear before trying to tell people what's imagination and where diminishing returns start. You've got anywhere from Pix who thinks anything above his Integra is diminishing, to those who believe it starts after their "B&W/Rotel" system. I don't even believe it starts with a system like mine. I'm sure I am the minority but I don't believe in diminishing returns or if there are it's way toward the top of ultra high end. My main speakers originally retailed at $4.5k, later took a serious price drop, but back to the point, I've also heard the Evidence flagship set up corrrectly which costs now an excess of $100k. Not many can afford them granted but to say there isn't $95k worth of difference, realizing the subjectivity, is still stupid, especially being said from those who have never heard them and can't even imagine their ability, so how can they talk about diminishing anything. Same with any gear. My modest 1.1x DAC costs $1.5k new which is a sizeable price tag for most but again it's stupid to say it wouldn't be worth $25k to buy a Krell kps25s. Again, especially without ever hearing it. If I had the money the purchase would be a no brainer. I know gear is system dependent but the 25s is still the best digital reproduction I've heard. A higher up the line Audio Note may blow it away but I haven't heard one to know but before spending $25k you better bet I'd know. I don't have a problem with anyone saying "I doubt it" or "I think" or "in my opinion" but this board has too many receiver, or mid-fi, owners that argue and take a hard line on whether cables do anything or if it would be a diminishing return for them to buy components with a total lack of understanding, knowledge or experience. Not only is that foolish but it's annoying and a big turn off to anyone who has knowledge, experience and understanding.

An example of diminishing returns to me would be when I wanted to upgrade from my Creek OBH-8 phono stage. I tried a few that were more expensive, including a Primare that was over $700.00 which none gave me a large enough improvement to make it worth the expense. I ended up spending over $1k to get what I thought was a significant enough improvement. If I had bought a cheaper phono stage that didn't do what I wanted that would be a "diminished" return, or what I'd call a waste of money. But to spend what it takes to get the noticeable improvement is NOT a diminishing return. If you have Rotel, not to pick on them but it seems to be the brand tossed around here, it may or may not be diminished to buy a Parasound, there may or may not be an improvement depending on your taste but to spend the money on a Mac, Krell, Conrad Johnson or some other agreed on high end brand would not be diminishing because the difference in sound quality would be as significant as the price difference. Anyone who has the nerve to argue that point has no business talking high end audio. That's not rude it's a fact, how can you talk high end audio if you can't hear the difference between mid-fi and true high end gear? If one can't hear it, fine, then go back to your receiver and stick to talking ONLY to what you know. I don't have enough vision to get a drivers license, but you don't see me on the road behind the wheel despite my lack of ability. So please do me the same courtesy here talking audio. I know of at least a couple members who admitted.in posts to hearing loss yet will still argue against any benefit to better cables or tweaks. They should at least keep an open mind that they may be missing something do to their decreased acuity. Check me if I'm wrong but unless I've lost my mind you've never seen me take a hard line on any TV or video technology, that wouldn't be responsible knowing I don't have 20/20 vision. I will take a hard line on me noticing a difference in any video, I figure if I see it then most anyone should :)

* I admit I'm not perfect, I use myself as example on certain things because it's what I know best and I don't want to call out anyone in particular, you know who you are. Well, I did Pix but he don't count. There are some here who I've had differences with and still respect and others, well.........

audio amateur
03-01-2008, 08:08 AM
If certain members of our forum are suffering from copremesis, we should be alot more sympathetic....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copremesis
I didn't start it:nonod: :cryin:

audio amateur
03-01-2008, 08:15 AM
Actually if anyone I should be careful as I am diagnosed to have Crohn's disease. Complications may occur in the future..

Ajani
03-01-2008, 08:56 AM
Flo, O'Shag, Ajani and anyone else I might have missed who posted along their thought line on this board, a very valid point of having at least a point of reference or some experience hearing high end gear before trying to tell people what's imagination and where diminishing returns start. You've got anywhere from Pix who thinks anything above his Integra is diminishing, to those who believe it starts after their "B&W/Rotel" system. I don't even believe it starts with a system like mine. I'm sure I am the minority but I don't believe in diminishing returns or if there are it's way toward the top of ultra high end. My main speakers originally retailed at $4.5k, later took a serious price drop, but back to the point, I've also heard the Evidence flagship set up corrrectly which costs now an excess of $100k. Not many can afford them granted but to say there isn't $95k worth of difference, realizing the subjectivity, is still stupid, especially being said from those who have never heard them and can't even imagine their ability, so how can they talk about diminishing anything. Same with any gear. My modest 1.1x DAC costs $1.5k new which is a sizeable price tag for most but again it's stupid to say it wouldn't be worth $25k to buy a Krell kps25s. Again, especially without ever hearing it. If I had the money the purchase would be a no brainer. I know gear is system dependent but the 25s is still the best digital reproduction I've heard. A higher up the line Audio Note may blow it away but I haven't heard one to know but before spending $25k you better bet I'd know. I don't have a problem with anyone saying "I doubt it" or "I think" or "in my opinion" but this board has too many receiver, or mid-fi, owners that argue and take a hard line on whether cables do anything or if it would be a diminishing return for them to buy components with a total lack of understanding, knowledge or experience. Not only is that foolish but it's annoying and a big turn off to anyone who has knowledge, experience and understanding.

An example of diminishing returns to me would be when I wanted to upgrade from my Creek OBH-8 phono stage. I tried a few that were more expensive, including a Primare that was over $700.00 which none gave me a large enough improvement to make it worth the expense. I ended up spending over $1k to get what I thought was a significant enough improvement. If I had bought a cheaper phono stage that didn't do what I wanted that would be a "diminished" return, or what I'd call a waste of money. But to spend what it takes to get the noticeable improvement is NOT a diminishing return. If you have Rotel, not to pick on them but it seems to be the brand tossed around here, it may or may not be diminished to buy a Parasound, there may or may not be an improvement depending on your taste but to spend the money on a Mac, Krell, Conrad Johnson or some other agreed on high end brand would not be diminishing because the difference in sound quality would be as significant as the price difference. Anyone who has the nerve to argue that point has no business talking high end audio. That's not rude it's a fact, how can you talk high end audio if you can't hear the difference between mid-fi and true high end gear? If one can't hear it, fine, then go back to your receiver and stick to talking ONLY to what you know. I don't have enough vision to get a drivers license, but you don't see me on the road behind the wheel despite my lack of ability. So please do me the same courtesy here talking audio. I know of at least a couple members who admitted.in posts to hearing loss yet will still argue against any benefit to better cables or tweaks. They should at least keep an open mind that they may be missing something do to their decreased acuity. Check me if I'm wrong but unless I've lost my mind you've never seen me take a hard line on any TV or video technology, that wouldn't be responsible knowing I don't have 20/20 vision. I will take a hard line on me noticing a difference in any video, I figure if I see it then most anyone should :)

* I admit I'm not perfect, I use myself as example on certain things because it's what I know best and I don't want to call out anyone in particular, you know who you are. Well, I did Pix but he don't count. There are some here who I've had differences with and still respect and others, well.........

Good Post.... I used to be a believer in diminishing returns (hell, I started the thread on that topic you're probably remembering - under my old username).... but through listening to different equipment, reading reviews and having discussions with people on this site (yourself included), I realized that audio is not that simple....

I've heard products costing three times as much, that I felt weren't worth the upgrade... I've also heard products costing 6 times as much that were worth it to me... More importantly I realized that to even say 'worth the upgrade' is so subjective and depends more on your disposable income sometimes than the actual sonic differences... Is is a Mercedes better than a Honda? In absolute terms - possibly... but is the upgrade worth it? To someone who can afford it - quite possibly... to someone who will be in severe debt for years to buy it - probably not..... Same thing with audio equipment.... Many reviewers even acknowledge this in their articles... just check out how many glowing reviews are given for specific pieces of budget gear e.g Benchmark DAC1, Revel Concerta F12, Marantz SA8001, Monitor Audio RS6... you'll even hear that the reviewer could be content living with the cheapo product (relatively cheap anyway) in their $100k reference system if they had to... Not that they would of course, since they can afford better... So now my view on audio is simply - There are good setups available at every budget......

Now, I listen to as many oppinions as I can to find products to audition.... then I trust my own ears and look in my wallet (lol)....

Ajani
03-01-2008, 09:00 AM
I didn't start it:nonod: :cryin:

LOL... I'm just joking, I doubt Pix is suffering from copremesis..... Frankly, I really hope none of the members on this forum are... it sounds like a really bad condition to have...

JohnMichael
03-01-2008, 09:01 AM
Actually if anyone I should be careful as I am diagnosed to have Crohn's disease. Complications may occur in the future..





I hope you are following the recommended diet and your doctor's advice. Many complications can be minimized.

audio amateur
03-01-2008, 09:15 AM
I hope you are following the recommended diet and your doctor's advice. Many complications can be minimized.
Well, I find it very hard to keep taking my medication when there's nothing wrong going on. I know I should..
Diet wise, I've been told I can eat normally, avoiding skins and foods that are hard to digest. It's all good:)

JohnMichael
03-01-2008, 09:22 AM
Well, I find it very hard to keep taking my medication when there's nothing wrong going on. I know I should..
Diet wise, I've been told I can eat normally, avoiding skins and foods that are hard to digest. It's all good:)





Keep taking your medications or I will tell you about a noncompliant friend who in his early 30's had to have a colostomy. He found it difficult to date young women with a bag on his side.

Mr Peabody
03-01-2008, 09:32 AM
To nit pick, not at you, but to make a point, using the Honda vs Mercedes example, the upgrade is worth it whether you can afford it or not. There is a difference in attitude between, yes, it's worth it but I must settle for something else because the upgrade is not in my budget and, well I can't afford it, so it's not worth it. See what I mean, because one can't afford it don't take the value away from it. Too many here have the latter attitude, they can't afford it so they want to whiz on everyone else's parade or convince those searching to settle like they did, and that's not right. If you don't have the experience or knowledge, then don't go there. Or, if you do but couldn't reach your goal, let others go as far as they can or as far as they feel it's worth it, to them.

Ajani
03-01-2008, 09:47 AM
To nit pick, not at you, but to make a point, using the Honda vs Mercedes example, the upgrade is worth it whether you can afford it or not. There is a difference in attitude between, yes, it's worth it but I must settle for something else because the upgrade is not in my budget and, well I can't afford it, so it's not worth it. See what I mean, because one can't afford it don't take the value away from it. Too many here have the latter attitude, they can't afford it so they want to whiz on everyone else's parade or convince those searching to settle like they did, and that's not right. If you don't have the experience or knowledge, then don't go there. Or, if you do but couldn't reach your goal, let others go as far as they can or as far as they feel it's worth it, to them.

I see what you're saying... but the thing I need to add... is that the respect has to go both ways... in audio things tend to get divided between the "anyone who spends more than x dollars on speakers/cables/amps is a lunatic" and the "everything costing less then x thousand dollars is garbage".... so part of why you have so many of the former is due to the arrogance of the latter....

As I've said in a different thread, we need more encouragement in this hobby and less looking down.... So back to the Honda/Mercedes example.... yeah the Mercedes may be better, but that doesn't mean the Honda isn't good.... and if the Mercedes owner wants not to be hated by the Honda owners, then he needs to actually respect Hondas as good value for their price...

Mr Peabody
03-01-2008, 10:09 AM
Agreed. I started at the bottom and worked my way up, so I can relate to both sides. There are also a few here that like to collect and build from vintage gear. That can be a lot of fun and I wish I had the room to play with that more.

Of course, no matter which level you are on you are going to have your fundamental favs and prejudices, Ford/Chevy, Honda/Harley, Yamaha/Onkyo etc. What would life be without a littel Bose bashing :)

Ajani
03-01-2008, 10:26 AM
Agreed. I started at the bottom and worked my way up, so I can relate to both sides. There are also a few here that like to collect and build from vintage gear. That can be a lot of fun and I wish I had the room to play with that more.

Of course, no matter which level you are on you are going to have your fundamental favs and prejudices, Ford/Chevy, Honda/Harley, Yamaha/Onkyo etc. What would life be without a littel Bose bashing :)

LOL... life just wouldn't be as sweet without some Bose bashing... though I have to give Bose credit for two things: 1) Advertising - I see Bose adverts on TV, in magazines... just about everywhere.... I'd love to see some other audio brands doing some advertising & 2) Making cutesy little, High WAF 'audio' systems....

Though I'd never use a bose product as a serious audio component, I'd considering using one as a HT-In-A-Box.... Also, it would be fun to be able to have a bose setup in one room and a similar priced audio rig in another, just so I can show friends and family the difference between the two...

audio amateur
03-01-2008, 10:43 AM
Keep taking your medications or I will tell you about a noncompliant friend who in his early 30's had to have a colostomy. He found it difficult to date young women with a bag on his side.
Will do.
I'm sure that's very hard on him, sorry to hear it

Groundbeef
03-01-2008, 11:17 AM
Good Post.... I used to be a believer in diminishing returns (hell, I started the thread on that topic you're probably remembering - under my old username).... but through listening to different equipment, reading reviews and having discussions with people on this site (yourself included), I realized that audio is not that simple....

I've heard products costing three times as much, that I felt weren't worth the upgrade... I've also heard products costing 6 times as much that were worth it to me... More importantly I realized that to even say 'worth the upgrade' is so subjective and depends more on your disposable income sometimes than the actual sonic differences... Is is a Mercedes better than a Honda? In absolute terms - possibly... but is the upgrade worth it? To someone who can afford it - quite possibly... to someone who will be in severe debt for years to buy it - probably not..... Same thing with audio equipment.... Many reviewers even acknowledge this in their articles... just check out how many glowing reviews are given for specific pieces of budget gear e.g Benchmark DAC1, Revel Concerta F12, Marantz SA8001, Monitor Audio RS6... you'll even hear that the reviewer could be content living with the cheapo product (relatively cheap anyway) in their $100k reference system if they had to... Not that they would of course, since they can afford better... So now my view on audio is simply - There are good setups available at every budget......

Now, I listen to as many oppinions as I can to find products to audition.... then I trust my own ears and look in my wallet (lol)....

I feel like this might have been covered before somewhere, but I can't put my thumb on it. GM sound familiar? Anyone?

Groundbeef
03-01-2008, 11:19 AM
Keep taking your medications or I will tell you about a noncompliant friend who in his early 30's had to have a colostomy. He found it difficult to date young women with a bag on his side.

Huh, I didn't realize you knew Melvin outside the forum. Learn something new everyday.

emaidel
03-01-2008, 12:06 PM
I think that one of the aspects of ultra high-end gear is the ultra, stratospheric price tags on some of the stuff. The best speakers I've ever heard were the B&W "Nautilus" that I heard many years back when their price tag was "only " $39,000. They were being driven by the required Mark Levinson tri-amplification, then costing $98,000. That doesn't even begin to take into consideration the price tag of the source material, or the cost of the interconnects and speaker cables.

So, did this system sound good? Absolutely. Did it sound $130,000 better than mine? Absolutely not. Was it/is it worth the price? I'd have to say, "no."

If designers spent a bit more time making affordable equipment better, then we'd really have something to crow about. How about a speaker system for $500 that blows just about everything else away? What about a power amp for less than $2,000 that does the same? And so on, and so on.

Designing equipment that a miniscule amount of people can possibly afford seems somewhat wasteful. Yes, it may be the best out there, but is so far beyond the affordability of us mere mortals as to be forever untouchable. How many people actually own the ClearAudio turntable which, without a tonearm, sells for $150,000?

A Mercedes S-class sedan costs anywhere from $72,000 to over $100,000. Most people can't possibly afford such a car. A Honda Accord, fully equipped comes in at just under $30,000. There's no question the Accord is a fine automobile, and, at least according to Consumer Reports, will be a far more reliable car for its owner than the far costlier Mercedes. The difference here is that, similarly equipped, the Accord costs a little more than 1/3 the cost of the Mercedes.

Ultra high-end components run far in excess of the $100,000 price tag for the Mercedes. Most of the rest of us haven't spent anywhere near $30,000 for our audio systems. So, there is a far greater disparity in the price of the "best" and the "merely excellent" when it comes to audio equipment, than it is for automobiles. To me, that's a bit silly. And this, from a Mercedes owner, no less!

JohnMichael
03-01-2008, 12:14 PM
Huh, I didn't realize you knew Melvin outside the forum. Learn something new everyday.




Melvin is helping me raise my stature from low class to Melvin class.

Ajani
03-01-2008, 12:28 PM
I think that one of the aspects of ultra high-end gear is the ultra, stratospheric price tags on some of the stuff. The best speakers I've ever heard were the B&W "Nautilus" that I heard many years back when their price tag was "only " $39,000. They were being driven by the required Mark Levinson tri-amplification, then costing $98,000. That doesn't even begin to take into consideration the price tag of the source material, or the cost of the interconnects and speaker cables.

So, did this system sound good? Absolutely. Did it sound $130,000 better than mine? Absolutely not. Was it/is it worth the price? I'd have to say, "no."

If designers spent a bit more time making affordable equipment better, then we'd really have something to crow about. How about a speaker system for $500 that blows just about everything else away? What about a power amp for less than $2,000 that does the same? And so on, and so on.

Designing equipment that a miniscule amount of people can possibly afford seems somewhat wasteful. Yes, it may be the best out there, but is so far beyond the affordability of us mere mortals as to be forever untouchable. How many people actually own the ClearAudio turntable which, without a tonearm, sells for $150,000?

A Mercedes S-class sedan costs anywhere from $72,000 to over $100,000. Most people can't possibly afford such a car. A Honda Accord, fully equipped comes in at just under $30,000. There's no question the Accord is a fine automobile, and, at least according to Consumer Reports, will be a far more reliable car for its owner than the far costlier Mercedes. The difference here is that, similarly equipped, the Accord costs a little more than 1/3 the cost of the Mercedes.

Ultra high-end components run far in excess of the $100,000 price tag for the Mercedes. Most of the rest of us haven't spent anywhere near $30,000 for our audio systems. So, there is a far greater disparity in the price of the "best" and the "merely excellent" when it comes to audio equipment, than it is for automobiles. To me, that's a bit silly. And this, from a Mercedes owner, no less!

Some do... take one of the brands you just mentioned: B&W - though I find their speakers fatiguing, I am very impressed with just how close their entry level models sound to their more expensive lines... I am a big fan of companies that trickle down/recycle technology from their ultra-expensive gear into their cheaper models... e.g. B&W, Revel, Marantz (so many of us praise their entry level CD5001 and SA8001 without appreciating that the technology was developed in their expensive reference CD players first), Musical fidelity etc...

On the other hand, brands such as Mark Levinson (which you also mentioned) focus only on the rich consumer, which is a waste to me... since I would love to see what a brand of their pedigree could do in the 'budget' arena....

Mr Peabody
03-01-2008, 01:27 PM
Emaidel, comparing your system to the mega Levinson system is a judgement call and if you don't think the difference is that great, so be it. But I own Adcom as well and it wouldn't take that large of a system to warrant a 10 times out lay of money. The system I have now is a gfa-5500, gfp-450 with a Conrad Johnson ss DAC behind Dynaudio Audience 60's. One of the better systems I heard was the kps-25s, Krell 250 monoblocks driving Dynaudio Confidence 4's, I can't remember what this system cost, maybe $60k at most, but the difference in performance was as broad as the price range of it to my Adcom. This isn't always going to be true but to not acknowledge the accomplishments of higher end gear is remiss. Your example is a bit extreme but I'll still take your word for it. I think in a poll of those who have heard Levinson and Adcom the large majority would disagree with you. There's a pretty large difference between Adcom and just a basic Levinson system. The weak link there and what threw the curve were the B&W's. Strap those amps to a good speaker and see what happens. The Dynaudio Sapphires at $16k has to be the best value going, to me they kill the Flagship Diamond series. I believe you said you sell Mercedes so I'm sure you got a good deal, if you even own the car. But for some one to own a car with the price tag of a Mercedes and then have an Adcom system shows a variance in priority. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Adcom, in fact, I'm quite impressed with my current system but it isn't exactly reference either in the way Mercedes is to automobile ownership. In contrast, I have Conrad Johnson as a main system and drive, well own, never drove, a Chrysler Town & Country. To me other than maybe status and paying way too much for maintenance I probably wouldn't see the point in having a Mercedes. My T&C has leather and a host of features too long to list or I want to sit and type. It may also be a difference in function of how we use each thing. I listen to much more music on my system than I watch TV, my audio system is very important to me. I cringe at the thought of my kids eating Teddy Grahams in a Mercedes, I'm not too happy about it in my T&C either but shtuff happens.

The Dynaudio Evidence I heard is worth it's price. If I had a large enough room and the money I wouldn't hesitate. I've heard nothing come as close to the wall of sound as a live concert than these speakers. You have to take "ultra high end" gear case by case, I can't make a blanket statement for all of it but sometimes it is worth it. I'd like to know how you all base your opinion or work your ratio. In the Evidence case compared to my speakers they cost maybe 20 times the cost, my speakers sound good but they can't even come close, as you'd expect for that price, to doing what the Evidence is capable of. Maybe it's like weather once it gets below freezing who cares how far the mercury drops, but I bet those where it gets sub zero would beg to differ. If you believe your system is right in there with Levinson, well..... keep telling your self that, what ever it takes to get some comfort.

Ajani
03-01-2008, 01:47 PM
Emaidel, comparing your system to the mega Levinson system is a judgement call and if you don't think the difference is that great, so be it. But I own Adcom as well and it wouldn't take that large of a system to warrant a 10 times out lay of money. The system I have now is a gfa-5500, gfp-450 with a Conrad Johnson ss DAC behind Dynaudio Audience 60's. One of the better systems I heard was the kps-25s, Krell 250 monoblocks driving Dynaudio Confidence 4's, I can't remember what this system cost, maybe $60k at most, but the difference in performance was as broad as the price range of it to my Adcom. This isn't always going to be true but to not acknowledge the accomplishments of higher end gear is remiss. Your example is a bit extreme but I'll still take your word for it. I think in a poll of those who have heard Levinson and Adcom the large majority would disagree with you. There's a pretty large difference between Adcom and just a basic Levinson system. The weak link there and what threw the curve were the B&W's. Strap those amps to a good speaker and see what happens. The Dynaudio Sapphires at $16k has to be the best value going, to me they kill the Flagship Diamond series. I believe you said you sell Mercedes so I'm sure you got a good deal, if you even own the car. But for some one to own a car with the price tag of a Mercedes and then have an Adcom system shows a variance in priority. Don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing Adcom, in fact, I'm quite impressed with my current system but it isn't exactly reference either in the way Mercedes is to automobile ownership. In contrast, I have Conrad Johnson as a main system and drive, well own, never drove, a Chrysler Town & Country. To me other than maybe status and paying way too much for maintenance I probably wouldn't see the point in having a Mercedes. My T&C has leather and a host of features too long to list or I want to sit and type. It may also be a difference in function of how we use each thing. I listen to much more music on my system than I watch TV, my audio system is very important to me. I cringe at the thought of my kids eating Teddy Grahams in a Mercedes, I'm not too happy about it in my T&C either but shtuff happens.

The Dynaudio Evidence I heard is worth it's price. If I had a large enough room and the money I wouldn't hesitate. I've heard nothing come as close to the wall of sound as a live concert than these speakers. You have to take "ultra high end" gear case by case, I can't make a blanket statement for all of it but sometimes it is worth it. I'd like to know how you all base your opinion or work your ratio. In the Evidence case compared to my speakers they cost maybe 20 times the cost, my speakers sound good but they can't even come close, as you'd expect for that price, to doing what the Evidence is capable of. Maybe it's like weather once it gets below freezing who cares how far the mercury drops, but I bet those where it gets sub zero would beg to differ. If you believe your system is right in there with Levinson, well..... keep telling your self that, what ever it takes to get some comfort.

I guess this is where the subjective part of this hobby really comes into play.... I've auditioned Dynaudio Focus 220 and 140 extensively, in direct comparison with B&W CM1, 703 and 805S speakers... with an Arcam CD Player and Rotel amp/preamp... and for me, the Dynaudio were some of the most boring and uninvolving speakers I've ever heard... This perception probably has a lot to do with them being directly contrasted with the B&Ws which have a totally different (more aggressive) presentation.... In the end I found both brands unsatisfactory... the B&Ws were too bright and the Dynaudio were too dull (I wonder if that's an approved audio word)....

Mr Peabody
03-01-2008, 02:13 PM
Have you heard other speakers with Rotel, or Dynaudio with another amp, like Arcam? I haven't as much experience with the Focus but generally Dynaudio have always been neutral no matter the series. I find Rotel polite but dull and sluggish, I suspect that's what the Dyn's let you hear. You are absolutely correct though, subjective. I still don't think you'd find too many people who would describe Dyn's as dull.

Ajani
03-01-2008, 02:27 PM
Have you heard other speakers with Rotel, or Dynaudio with another amp, like Arcam? I haven't as much experience with the Focus but generally Dynaudio have always been neutral no matter the series. I find Rotel polite but dull and sluggish, I suspect that's what the Dyn's let you hear. You are absolutely correct though, subjective. I still don't think you'd find too many people who would describe Dyn's as dull.

I owned a Rotel & Mission combo that I really liked. Mission has a reputation for being aggressive, so they may have matched well with the Rotel because of that... Unfortunately, my only experience with Dynaudio has been with Rotel... Hopefully one day I'll get to hear the Dynaudio on a different amp to see if I still have the same oppinion....

emaidel
03-01-2008, 04:02 PM
Emaidel, comparing your system to the mega Levinson system is a judgement call and if you don't think the difference is that great, so be it. . If you believe your system is right in there with Levinson, well..... keep telling your self that, what ever it takes to get some comfort.

You have thorougly misconstrued my post. I made no such comparison, nor would I ever dream of doing so. I said that the combination of the Nautilus speakers and the Mark Levinson amplification was the best I'd ever heard. What I didn't think was that it was worth the price tag of almost 8 years ago of $130,000. I certainly didn't equate Adcom with Levinson.

Adcom has always represented a high level of quality for its price, and has justifiably been believed to be a great value. There's lots better out there, and Levinson certainly is one of those brands. It just isn't $130,000 better or, more precisely, $96,500 better. The GFA-5800 (which Nelson Pass believes is the best sounding amp Adcom ever made) sold for $1,500 when new vs. the $98,000 price tag for the Levinson equipment at least 8 years ago, so who knows how much it costs today.

And owning a Mercedes is no reason to have to purchase Levinson gear either. The amplifier I mentioned to drive the Natuilus speakers costs more than most loaded S-class sedans. That, is just ridiculous, considering the extensive amount of engineering, manufacturing time and raw materials that go into an S-class vs. whatever goes into a Levinson amp.

And, no, I never sold Mercedes automobiles. My son sells Porches, so does that count?

Mr Peabody
03-01-2008, 04:58 PM
You have thorougly misconstrued my post. I made no such comparison, nor would I ever dream of doing so. I said that the combination of the Nautilus speakers and the Mark Levinson amplification was the best I'd ever heard. What I didn't think was that it was worth the price tag of almost 8 years ago of $130,000. I certainly didn't equate Adcom with Levinson.

Adcom has always represented a high level of quality for its price, and has justifiably been believed to be a great value. There's lots better out there, and Levinson certainly is one of those brands. It just isn't $130,000 better or, more precisely, $96,500 better. The GFA-5800 (which Nelson Pass believes is the best sounding amp Adcom ever made) sold for $1,500 when new vs. the $98,000 price tag for the Levinson equipment at least 8 years ago, so who knows how much it costs today.

And owning a Mercedes is no reason to have to purchase Levinson gear either. The amplifier I mentioned to drive the Natuilus speakers costs more than most loaded S-class sedans. That, is just ridiculous, considering the extensive amount of engineering, manufacturing time and raw materials that go into an S-class vs. whatever goes into a Levinson amp.

> I, did, understand what you were saying. Maybe not in your case, but I do feel that sometimes the price is worth it. I think the reason your example system was $96k is due to multiple amps instead of one good one. As much as that Levinson/B&W wouldn't be my dream system, I'm sure it was still able to perform way beyond your Adcom system. 20 times, maybe, maybe not, it depends on who's doing the fuzzy math.

> A person who can afford a Mercedes should be able to purchase gear above Adcom if that was their desire. You are easier satisfied than myself when it comes to music reproduction. I couldn't afford a Mercedes, unless it was large enough to live in. Your point of satisfaction is what keeps you from thinking the price was worth it. I'm sure the margin of profit is great on that calibur of gear as well, the same as your son makes more money selling a Porsche than a VW Rabbit. Some people would spend $130k on a strand of diamonds. I'd rather spend it on hi fi if I had it. Because you don't think the Levinson/B&W isn't worth the $136k and you are willing to settle don't make those that would rather have the Levinson any more wrong.

And, no, I never sold Mercedes automobiles. My son sells Porches, so does that count?

Sure, we'll allow some points for that. Some one here just recently mentioned they either do, or did, sell Mercedes. I thought it was you. Maybe I'll run across that thread again.

emaidel
03-02-2008, 04:55 AM
We disagree, and that's pretty much that. To me, $98,000 for tri-amplification (NO pre-amp, however) is simply ridiculous. Nothing will ever justify such a price tag to me, unless it's the amplification system to power up a football stadium, or something like that.

Insofar as being a Mercedes owner, I am by no means the supermely wealthy individual you seem to think I am. When we purchased our Mercedes, we bought it used (it was a "Starmark" vehicle). The price tag for a new Chrysler 300 is about the same as that for a 3 or 4 year-old E-class Mercedes (depending on the size of the engine), so why then is someone who bought the Chrysler over the used Mercedes not also believed to be one who shouldn't "settle" for everything else he purchases, as you imply I do, and shouldn't, because I own a Mercedes?

I used the Mercedes analogy only to illustrate the differences in price between "ordinary" vehicles, and high-end S-class Mercedes cars, and that such a difference is a good deal less than that between an "ordinary" stereo system and an ultra high-end system. I also wanted to illustrate a concrete example of how ludicrously priced some gear is, considering one can actually purchase a fully-loaded, brand new S-class for less than some audio gear. I simply cannot accept that, though I realize that you can. And so, we disagree.

hifitommy
03-02-2008, 12:36 PM
you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.

if anybody so much as hinted that he could hear i difference in wire of ANY kind, they would be all over them like white on rice. maybe not eyespy but mtry yes.

i labelled the barkers to be 'chihuahuas' because they would nip and bite these posters in the ankles and discourage them from posting.

THINGS HAVE CHANGED. thankfully.

it was sort of fun but i could see that many posters gave up quickly because they were bombarded with DBT attacks which i labelled 'BTs4Ds'. that is blind tests for dummies. dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results.

anyway, glad to have you.

Ajani
03-02-2008, 02:08 PM
you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.

if anybody so much as hinted that he could hear i difference in wire of ANY kind, they would be all over them like white on rice. maybe not eyespy but mtry yes.

i labelled the barkers to be 'chihuahuas' because they would nip and bite these posters in the ankles and discourage them from posting.

THINGS HAVE CHANGED. thankfully.

it was sort of fun but i could see that many posters gave up quickly because they were bombarded with DBT attacks which i labelled 'BTs4Ds'. that is blind tests for dummies. dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results.

anyway, glad to have you.

What's wrong with dbt? If two audio components have the same measured response, but different price tags, how else can you impartially tell whether there is a real sonic difference between the two? Even well respected brands (such as Revel) use dbt to help determine whether there are real differences when they are testing new speakers... I'll agree that it's not easy to setup a proper dbt.... but once one it is setup, I think it as a very useful test...

However, regardless of how I feel about cables and differences between amps etc... I think we should respect someone else's right to believe what they want...

Sir Terrence the Terrible
03-02-2008, 03:45 PM
you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.

if anybody so much as hinted that he could hear i difference in wire of ANY kind, they would be all over them like white on rice. maybe not eyespy but mtry yes.

i labelled the barkers to be 'chihuahuas' because they would nip and bite these posters in the ankles and discourage them from posting.

THINGS HAVE CHANGED. thankfully.

it was sort of fun but i could see that many posters gave up quickly because they were bombarded with DBT attacks which i labelled 'BTs4Ds'. that is blind tests for dummies. dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results.

Woh, a blast from the past. Someone git the electronic heart starting kit, the T man has fallen down and can't git up! Did you say Mtrycraft and eyespy? I haven't heard those names since moses 58th birthday party.

What a bash, still hung over from that one......



anyway, glad to have you.[/QUOTE]

hifitommy
03-02-2008, 07:29 PM
"dbt is largely a waste of time in audio. assembling the proper equipment and participants is a daunting task that rarely yields meaningful results. "

it works IF properly done. rarely is it. also, it puts performance anxiety into the equation. therefore, its nearly useless.

markw
03-03-2008, 03:47 AM
Isn't that a fancy way of saying that one is afraid that their firmly held beliefs might be proven wrong when depending on one sense alone?

If performance anxiety were that major an issue. most audiophiles wouldn't have any kids.

Brett A
03-03-2008, 04:32 AM
you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts ...used to frequent this board.

Funny this name should pop up here. This guy has been making attempts to beat me up over on another forum essentially for reporting things that he has read cannot be measured.

I don't wish to pick on him specifically, suffice to say when I recently wandered into this other forum, I was quite taken aback by how sensitive and prone to attack some devout objectivists are.
I understand it as insecurity. People tend to attack when they feel threatened.
(Oh yeh, people also like to be right too.)

Florian
03-03-2008, 04:46 AM
Well, it all down to how much you care to spend. This hobby really doesnt need much brain power at all, if you want to go "All out Assault" then you simply need money. You dont even need skill in this hobby and there are no wrong answeres.... exept cheap NAD receivers... lol

Ajani
03-03-2008, 05:09 AM
Well, it all down to how much you care to spend. This hobby really doesnt need much brain power at all, if you want to go "All out Assault" then you simply need money. You dont even need skill in this hobby and there are no wrong answeres.... exept cheap NAD receivers... lol

LOL.... Good point actually..... I think the biggest challenge in this hobby is trying to put together a great setup on a more modest budget.... with a total buget of say $3k, try putting together a great 2 channel setup... do you buy new or take a chance on used? Do you go for reproducing the full range of sound (floorstanders) or just concentrate on the mid - hi frequencies (bookshelves)? Do you buy a good source or just 'borrow' or buy your friends $30 Ratshack DVD player and spend the entire budget on amp and speakers? How do you split your budget between components? Do you buy fancy cables or just use the freebie RCAs that come with the amp or cd player?

With lots of money to spend, all you need to do is walk into your nearest shop, listen to the most expensive setup and if you like it... buy it.... Then people see your expensive setup and think you are a real audio expert (or lunatic... lol)....

Anyway, I think sometimes we loose track of the point of having a hobby... to have fun...

Florian
03-03-2008, 05:15 AM
Exactly, who the hell cares if my sound is colored, or too large.

I love having a big fat speaker where i have to rent a crane just to move it to my new apartment. Mmmh..... all i care about is blasting my ears out with a huge soundstage and slam attacks that make me shiffer.... :cornut:

Feanor
03-03-2008, 05:45 AM
LOL.... Good point actually..... I think the biggest challenge in this hobby is trying to put together a great setup on a more modest budget.... with a total buget of say $3k, try putting together a great 2 channel setup... do you buy new or take a chance on used? Do you go for reproducing the full range of sound (floorstanders) or just concentrate on the mid - hi frequencies (bookshelves)? Do you buy a good source or just 'borrow' or buy your friends $30 Ratshack DVD player and spend the entire budget on amp and speakers? How do you split your budget between components? Do you buy fancy cables or just use the freebie RCAs that come with the amp or cd player?
...

Anyway, I think sometimes we loose track of the point of having a hobby... to have fun...

The fun is so many variables, not the least one's taste in music and personal preference.

I know my present system is extremely well balance and tuned to my tastes, but where's the fun in that? I know that my current components deliver great performance and are amazingly good value for the money; still, I spend plenty of time thinking about possible improvements.

In that regard, it's useful to have multiple systems to play with: the HT set up, the family room TV system, the bedroom system. I'm going to work on getting my daughter interested in a system for her bedroom -- right now she listens only to earbuds her computer or Creative MP2 player. Sad, really :nonod:

hifitommy
03-03-2008, 06:05 AM
...of saying that one is afraid that their firmly held beliefs might be proven wrong when depending on one sense alone?" (mark w)

nope. its a tension thats added that subtracts from concentration. other opponents of routine dbt cite the same. and as i stated before, proper dbt is quite difficult to set up and carry out. it turns into a waste of time and effort for picking between products.

long term listening is more revealing and productive.

Florian
03-03-2008, 06:05 AM
Try to get her an iPOD and then the new WADIA docking station :-)

E-Stat
03-03-2008, 06:17 AM
you should have been here a couple of years ago when mtrycrafts and eyespy used to frequent this board.
That's funny, I just mentioned him on another thread. What I found to be decidedly non-scientific about their pontifications was the continual extrapolation of tests. Since DBTs resulted in a null result with two dollar Radio Shack interconnects, therefore, the same will be true with Nordost Valhalla. Right.

Mtry soldiers on as an Audioholic Warlord. :)

rw

markw
03-03-2008, 06:25 AM
...of saying that one is afraid that their firmly held beliefs might be proven wrong when depending on one sense alone?" (mark w)

nope. its a tension thats added that subtracts from concentration. other opponents of routine dbt cite the same. and as i stated before, proper dbt is quite difficult to set up and carry out. it turns into a waste of time and effort for picking between products.IOW, they can't hear any differences in a DBT. QED


long term listening is more revealing and productive.Perhaps, but who says long term listening has to be sighted? These can just as easily be done without the listener being aware of what item they are listening to, can't they?

Ajani
03-03-2008, 06:27 AM
...of saying that one is afraid that their firmly held beliefs might be proven wrong when depending on one sense alone?" (mark w)

nope. its a tension thats added that subtracts from concentration. other opponents of routine dbt cite the same. and as i stated before, proper dbt is quite difficult to set up and carry out. it turns into a waste of time and effort for picking between products.

long term listening is more revealing and productive.

The problem I find with the concept of long term listening, is that if you're already prejudiced by 'price tag' then I don't see how continuing to listen 'with your eyes' will make any difference.... If I've already convinced myself that a more expensive component/cable sounds better/different, then no amount of listening is likely to convince me otherwise...

Though I see some merit to the point about performance anxiety... keep in mind that ALL people face some kind of performance anxiety, whether at work, in social situations, in romantic encounters.... the way to get past performance anxiety is to practice... it's what athletes do to ensure that they can run their best race with millions of people watching them and actors do to ensure that they can still do that amazing performance on Broadway, with critics and fans alike watching their every move....

Though, performance anxiety is a factor in dbt... it certainly does not make it useless...

Ajani
03-03-2008, 06:47 AM
That's funny, I just mentioned him on another thread. What I found to be decidedly non-scientific about their pontifications was the continual extrapolation of tests. Since DBTs resulted in a null result with two dollar Radio Shack interconnects, therefore, the same will be true with Nordost Valhalla. Right.

Mtry soldiers on as an Audioholic Warlord. :)

rw

That point is the major problem with dbt (and just about any scientific testing)... poor extrapolation of test results.... I fell into the same trap myself, earlier in my audio hobby... I thought that because I could not hear 'major' differences between two cheap CD Players, a dvd player and my mac-mini... that it meant that digital source sounded mostly the same... To do a real test I would also need to have compared more expensive sources to cheaper ones and different expensive ones against each other....

Ajani
03-03-2008, 06:55 AM
Try to get her an iPOD and then the new WADIA docking station :-)

Or get her an iPOD, a Krell KID and Krell Papa Dock... lol

E-Stat
03-03-2008, 07:10 AM
That point is the major problem with dbt (and just about any scientific testing)... poor extrapolation of test results....
Actually, the worst fallacy is the assumption that switch boxes used commonly in ABX tests on amplifiers and interconnects don't affect the outcome. Roger Russell and his acolytes affirm that the marginal 0.1 ohm impedance couldn't possibly make a difference. What they completely forget is the common ground connections effectively sum the outputs of the two devices under test anyway. In the case of amplifiers, the distortions are reflected back to the jacks because of the feedback loop. Of course, there is no difference when you are simultaneously comparing both to both.


To do a real test I would also need to have compared more expensive sources to cheaper ones and different expensive ones against each other....
I suggest clearing your head of "expense" when comparing two audio components. Cost is not a good determining factor for performance.

rw

Feanor
03-03-2008, 07:17 AM
Try to get her an iPOD and then the new WADIA docking station :-)

Flo, Aj, for starters she's anti-iPod and chose against the Apple product. (Despite that I have an iPod myself.) What might work would be a nice USB DAC+headphone amp combo plus decent 'phones.

The real point is that she, like so many youth and not-so youth, just doesn't care about the sound quality.

Ajani
03-03-2008, 07:20 AM
Actually, the worst fallacy is the assumption that switch boxes used commonly in ABX tests on amplifiers and interconnects don't affect the outcome. Roger Russell and his acolytes affirm that the marginal 0.1 ohm impedance couldn't possibly make a difference. What they completely forget is the common ground connections effectively sum the outputs of the two devices under test anyway. In the case of amplifiers, the distortions are reflected back to the jacks because of the feedback loop. Of course, there is no difference when you are simultaneously comparing both to both.

Why do they use switch boxes? That just seems lazy and creates controversy...


I suggest clearing your head of "expense" when comparing two audio components. Cost is not a good determining factor for performance.

rw

Agreed.... I don't assume more expensive to be better, what I should say is more highly regarded components (which unfortunately are usually more expensive)....

Feanor
03-03-2008, 07:31 AM
What's wrong with dbt? If two audio components have the same measured response, but different price tags, how else can you impartially tell whether there is a real sonic difference between the two? Even well respected brands (such as Revel) use dbt to help determine whether there are real differences when they are testing new speakers... I'll agree that it's not easy to setup a proper dbt.... but once one it is setup, I think it as a very useful test...

However, regardless of how I feel about cables and differences between amps etc... I think we should respect someone else's right to believe what they want...

There is a bit of myth that DBTs never prove differences between components. That isn't true. Even the classic study by Ian Masters in Audio magazine proved that some listeners could in fact distiguish between certain pairs of amp with statistical significance.

However HFT is right: the effort to set up a scientifically sound and also compelling DBT is rarely worth it. Remeber: at best any DBT can only prove that under the very specific conditions of the test and for the given group of participants, difference where perceived. And no DBT can ever prove that no diffences exist.

StevenSurprenant
03-03-2008, 07:41 AM
emaidel...

I'm sure that was hard to swallow, but very admirable!

I think we are all opinionated and that's okay as long as realize that we all have different tastes and different points of reference.

Sometimes it bothers us when people disagree, but in the big scope it really doesn't matter.

Recently, I was at a local audio store and I mentioned that I replaced my Levinson gear with a Panasonic receiver and thought that the Panasonic sounded much better. The gentleman told me that he had Levinson and made it very clear that he disagreed. He said and I quote, "I'd sure hate to hear your system", and he meant it. I just smiled and told him that he should not short change Panasonic till he actually heard it.

I realize that it sounds absurd to compare Panasonic with Levinson, but it is just my opinion. A few years ago, I would not believe that I would believe it either. Oh well!

I seen people compare the little T-Amp with highend gear and it reviewed favorably. Not as good as the good stuff, but impressive for what it was.

Anyhow, it really doesn't matter that people disagree with what you know or feel is fact. You just have to speak your mind and if they reject it, then that is too bad for them or perhaps their tastes go in a different direction.

I know it was hard to write what you did, but you have my respect for it.

basite
03-03-2008, 08:35 AM
The real point is that she, like so many youth and not-so youth, just doesn't care about the sound quality.


if I may ask, how old is she? Younger kids (under 12 years old, for example) are more influencable, so here easier strategies could help. if she's older (about my age), it takes more work...

Here's a 'strategy' I also suggested to Slippers On for his son (and which eventually worked...): find a genre of music that you both like (or that she likes and you can live with), then find something decent recorded there, buy/download it , and play it on your system to grab her attention. (or whatever it takes so she'll listen to you system, without directly asking her to come listen to your system. Buying the cd, leaving it somewhere for her to see, and later on asking if she would have seen it somewhere. Causing her to know it's your cd usually works well.), so show interest of somekind. With a little luck, she'll appreciate both the music and how it sounds through a decent system, and might just be interested in having better sound quality for her music too. (she won't be an audio enthousiast at once, but there's a chance that she'll start to appreciate good sound quality)

(it's a rather simple explanation, but I hope you'll get the point...)
what kind of music does she listen to btw?

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Ajani
03-03-2008, 08:48 AM
if I may ask, how old is she? Younger kids (under 12 years old, for example) are more influencable, so here easier strategies could help. if she's older (about my age), it takes more work...

Here's a 'strategy' I also suggested to Slippers On for his son (and which eventually worked...): find a genre of music that you both like (or that she likes and you can live with), then find something decent recorded there, buy/download it , and play it on your system to grab her attention. (or whatever it takes so she'll listen to you system, without directly asking her to come listen to your system. Buying the cd, leaving it somewhere for her to see, and later on asking if she would have seen it somewhere. Causing her to know it's your cd usually works well.), so show interest of somekind. With a little luck, she'll appreciate both the music and how it sounds through a decent system, and might just be interested in having better sound quality for her music too. (she won't be an audio enthousiast at once, but there's a chance that she'll start to appreciate good sound quality)

(it's a rather simple explanation, but I hope you'll get the point...)
what kind of music does she listen to btw?

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Good strategy...

@ Feanor - Be careful what you wish for.... next thing you'll find that she feels the need to 'tweak' your main system to make it sound better!!!! lol

Feanor
03-03-2008, 09:23 AM
if I may ask, how old is she? Younger kids (under 12 years old, for example) are more influencable, so here easier strategies could help. if she's older (about my age), it takes more work...
...

(it's a rather simple explanation, but I hope you'll get the point...)
what kind of music does she listen to btw?

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Bert, thanks for the suggestion. Thing is, my daughter is no 12 year-old, in fact she's 21, (older than you, eh?). She's not interested in my music, (or hardly so), and I don't really know what she listens to because I never hear it -- she only listens on headphones. (I could snoop her harddisk, but at her age I don't have the right to snoop for such a trivial reason.)

Note this: I'm not that keen to have her set up speakers in her room because her mother and I don't want the noise at 2-3 AM when she is quite likely to want to listen.

basite
03-03-2008, 11:59 AM
Bert, thanks for the suggestion. Thing is, my daughter is no 12 year-old, in fact she's 21, (older than you, eh?). She's not interested in my music, (or hardly so), and I don't really know what she listens to because I never hear it -- she only listens on headphones. (I could snoop her harddisk, but at her age I don't have the right to snoop for such a trivial reason.)

Note this: I'm not that keen to have her set up speakers in her room because her mother and I don't want the noise at 2-3 AM when she is quite likely to want to listen.


she's indeed older as me...

If I recall correctly from the lessons at school (I study human science: relations, behaviour, psychology and stuff like that...), adults are more stubborn than teenagers, which means they'll want to do things on their own, they don't want 'help' from someone else unless they specifically ask for it. Which basically means that in case of your daughter, she'll have to realize herself that the sound coming from her earbuds is bad. This ain't gonna happen from itselves though, I'd still recommend the theory I explained in the previous post, but remember not to push her.
21 isn't that old though, my cousin got in touch with hifi thanks to me, and he's the same age as your daughter. he did show interest though...

have you tried telling her that constantly using those earbuds will damage her hearing permanently? find the right occasion to mention it, and mention something about new headphones too, maybe throw in birthday present or so too...
with a little luck, she'll start thinking about her hearing and at least show interest for hifi just to preserve her hearing...

and didn't you recently aquire a vintage marantz integrated :cornut:
would make a decent heaphone pre too you know :p

these are all just things that came up in me, don't try them all at once, and think before you do. be subtle.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Mr Peabody
03-03-2008, 04:12 PM
Is Wadia still in business?

In regard to DBT or evaluating gear in our system I will not believe that we are convinced of any improvement just because of cost. That would mean everything I evaluated that cost more than I had I would have bought and that simply is not true. My C-J preamp cost $1k less than the ARC I auditioned and rejected. I preferred the C-J by a long shot. I have other examples as well but I don't think a list will convince anyone if that's their way of thinking. It's more than a little insulting when that camp makes these type of claims as if audiophiles/enthusiasts are mindless music zombies who only chase price tags to build a system.

Ajani
03-03-2008, 05:01 PM
Is Wadia still in business?

Yes and it has a fairly expensive iPOD dock out now....


In regard to DBT or evaluating gear in our system I will not believe that we are convinced of any improvement just because of cost. That would mean everything I evaluated that cost more than I had I would have bought and that simply is not true. My C-J preamp cost $1k less than the ARC I auditioned and rejected. I preferred the C-J by a long shot. I have other examples as well but I don't think a list will convince anyone if that's their way of thinking. It's more than a little insulting when that camp makes these type of claims as if audiophiles/enthusiasts are mindless music zombies who only chase price tags to build a system.

I think that camp fully intends to be insulting....

However, just as there is some amount of 'performance anxiety' in DBT, there is also some amount of 'price bias' in sighted testing.... IMO, only a total fool is going to buy based solely on price.... but when the differences in sound quality are subtle, many people buy the more expensive option (if they can afford it)....

Also IMO, much of the problems in audio arise because some 'golden ear' audiophiles claim ultra-dramatic, night and day differences between just about any product.... Differences that are subtle or can't even be heard by 'regular ears'.... Most people can accept that subtle differences exist even if they can't hear them (as the person claiming to hear the difference may have better hearing)... but they are unlikely to accept the notion of dramatic differences, when they can't hear any difference...

Mr Peabody
03-03-2008, 05:56 PM
To me if a difference or improvement is dramatic, anyone should be able to pick up on it.

E-Stat
03-03-2008, 07:57 PM
Also IMO, much of the problems in audio arise because some 'golden ear' audiophiles claim ultra-dramatic, night and day differences between just about any product.... Differences that are subtle or can't even be heard by 'regular ears'...
Not only that, but in terms of systems and recordings demonstrating superior dynamics, 'regular ears' may well prefer the louder, more compressed signal rendered by the lesser system.


.. but they are unlikely to accept the notion of dramatic differences, when they can't hear any difference...
At the uppermost end of the resolution scale, you really need some initial training as to the kind of detail for which to listen. At least that was the case with me trying to fully understand the observations of my audio reviewer friends.

rw

Mr Peabody
03-03-2008, 08:42 PM
Good point and in addition, at least in my case and I'd think others, lesser expensive gear are more prone to colorations and that tends to be what we are used to. It takes some listening and exposure to higher end gear to become familiar with the benefits and accuracies.

Mr Peabody
03-08-2008, 09:04 AM
Emaidel, I hope our debate didn't discourage you. I really didn't mean anything by it except a debate.

I recently saw a very good price for a new C-J CT-6 and was really considering the possibility of the upgrade. Then I sat down and listened to some music on my system. I realized that my current system is doing everything I want it to do for now. So I put the brakes on. On one hand I still wrestle with the idea that I am missing a good deal but also that's a lot of money with other family needs it could go for. If I wasn't content with my system I would have probably made the upgrade happen. So I do realize that we can be content for less money and level of gear. If money was never an issue though I'm sure I'd probably have an ART preamp and LP70 monoblocks.

audio amateur
03-08-2008, 09:22 AM
www.hifitalk.forumotion.com

you know it makes sence
someone report this guy

E-Stat
03-08-2008, 09:30 AM
someone report this guy
This will be the fourth deletion today. Banning is next.

rw

basite
03-08-2008, 09:33 AM
This will be the fourth deletion today. Banning is next.

rw


He sent me a PM, asking me to join another forum,
does that count as spam too?

just ban the pr!ck

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

audio amateur
03-08-2008, 09:56 AM
This will be the fourth deletion today. Banning is next.

rw
:yesnod:

audio amateur
03-08-2008, 09:57 AM
He sent me a PM, asking me to join another forum,
does that count as spam too?

just ban the pr!ck

Keep them spinning,
Bert.
LOL damn right!

bobsticks
03-08-2008, 10:06 AM
Has there ever been a DBT in which the hearing and cognitive abilities of the subjects was tested prior to any music being played? Clearly, my hearing is going to be different than Florian's or Basite's or E-Stat's or Feanor's. Circumstances of lifestyle and age must effect one's hearing and to discount that must surely negate the certis paribus aspect of the scientific method.

Hardcore objectivists rarely like to talk about the specifics of their systems...hhhmmm.

I wouldn't go into someone's art gallery and tell them they could have the equivalent if they went from room to room in a Motel 6 copping prints.

Ajani
03-08-2008, 10:12 AM
....I recently saw a very good price for a new C-J CT-6 and was really considering the possibility of the upgrade. Then I sat down and listened to some music on my system. I realized that my current system is doing everything I want it to do for now. So I put the brakes on. On one hand I still wrestle with the idea that I am missing a good deal but also that's a lot of money with other family needs it could go for. If I wasn't content with my system I would have probably made the upgrade happen. So I do realize that we can be content for less money and level of gear. If money was never an issue though I'm sure I'd probably have an ART preamp and LP70 monoblocks.

I think that's what happens to a lot of people, they reach a stage where they know that there is better sound available, but their system is good enough for them just to enjoy the music... For some that stage comes pretty early in the audio game (ht receiver and entry level speakers)....for others, not untill they have Apogee Grands (lol)...

Seriously though, congratulations... that's a really good stage to be it.... it means you can take it easy, enjoy the music and when funds permit - consider an upgrade (not that you have to)....

robin banks
03-08-2008, 10:18 AM
www.hifitalk.forumotion.com

nutters paradise peeps

Ajani
03-08-2008, 10:26 AM
Has there ever been a DBT in which the hearing and cognitive abilities of the subjects was tested prior to any music being played? Clearly, my hearing is going to be different than Florian's or Basite's or E-Stat's or Feanor's. Circumstances of lifestyle and age must effect one's hearing and to discount that must surely negate the certis paribus aspect of the scientific method.

Hardcore objectivists rarely like to talk about the specifics of their systems...hhhmmm.

I wouldn't go into someone's art gallery and tell them they could have the equivalent if they went from room to room in a Motel 6 copping prints.

All good points...

Keep in mind though, that Art Connoisseurs probably don't get much more respect than Audiophiles (Why aren't we called Audio Connoisseurs? That sounds so much classier and less like some kind of Sexual Deviant)... Many people regard Art and Wine Connoisseurs as being full of $"*..... and regard a print from Motel 6 as being just as good as a Picasso original....

audio amateur
03-08-2008, 12:12 PM
All good points...

Keep in mind though, that Art Connoisseurs probably don't get much more respect than Audiophiles (Why aren't we called Audio Connoisseurs? That sounds so much classier and less like some kind of Sexual Deviant)... Many people regard Art and Wine Connoisseurs as being full of $"*..... and regard a print from Motel 6 as being just as good as a Picasso original....
No, not for wine, at least not here. Wine is much less of a subjective matter. I don't think you can compare it to audio, or even art as you state.
I do love your signature:)

Ajani
03-08-2008, 01:34 PM
No, not for wine, at least not here. Wine is much less of a subjective matter. I don't think you can compare it to audio, or even art as you state.

I hadn't thought about Europe when I was thinking of the wine tasting example.... But considering the popularity of wine as an everyday drink there, wine tasting is less likely to be mocked (if at all)... here on the other hand, wine is often seen more as a 'luxury' drink..... So I've actually heard people mock wine tasting here.... Different culture I guess...

EDIT: Good point btw... not sure I agree on whether wine tasting is less subjective though...


I do love your signature:)

LOL.... yeah I think we need a name change in this hobby...