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Rich-n-Texas
02-25-2008, 09:48 AM
I hope I'm not being obnoxious by starting another thread about this purchase, but the other one was too long and full of a bad experience so I didn't want it to cloud what will be an ongoing review. And I mean a long ongoing review (learning curve and all).

Just to reiterate a couple of things, the packing of the unit was outstanding. You'd never know there was another box inside. It included a manual that was not a Xeroxed copy, the registration card was there and I immediately registered it on Yamaha's website under an account I created.

Details: I know I'm old and out of shape but this 38 lb unit felt like 50, which doesn't help much when trying to maneuver it in & out of the cabinet. That said, I'm pleased that all surfaces are metal (not sure about the volume knob, but at least it didn't wobble when I turned it up & down), and the front access door has a nice smooth, dampened action when you manually open and close it. As the pictures show, it has a clean uncluttered front panel which is fine with me, and it lends that aspect to some measure of child-proofing (not that that's a concern). As mentioned before the back panel is some serious business! If RCA still gets royalties from that plug design, they're in good shape. It's a bit overwhelming at first but the manual grays out every connection that's not needed when it's explaining what gets connected where, most of which is obvious even to me. The speaker terminals are stacked one on top of the other which is different than what I used before, but it does make it easier to bundle all of the wires together when I'm routing them down the back of the cabinet. Like I said I'm going to replace the banana plugs with ones that the wire can be fed through from the back and also grip the insulation as well as the set screw that tightens down over the bare wire. I had a couple of instances where the Dayton audio plugs fell out because I have to connect them to the bare wire from the side of the plug, which means they rout down, hit the shelf and then make a sharp turn exiting the cabinet. I don't like that.

<O:p</O:pI made all the speaker connections, connected my DVD changer via digital coax and fired it up. The first CD (for you rush fans) was Snakes & Arrows. The receiverís default setting was DTS: Neo Movie mode and the first thing I heard was more base response from the sub. This was good because if youíll recall, with my previous receiver, good clean, clear base was sorely lacking in my room. I have moved the sub though, and I now have two out of six acoustic panels in place (more or less), so Iím sure those two changes had an effect. I also have the mains bi-amped, but the default setting for that is Off which I didnít realize until later. When I switched to DTS Music, it didnít sound good, which scared me. 2 Channel stereo sounded bad, and Pure Direct sounded bad too.

<O:p</O:pThe next thing I did was prepare for the auto EQ program. I mounted the microphone on my cameraís tripod as recommended, put it in the center of the room and arranged the existing furniture to simulate approximately what the room will resemble when all is said and done. I plugged in the mic and the unitís display showed GUI: RX-V3800, which I took to mean that the program will output info to the receiverís display, but not so. Despite this, I pressed enter as shown in the manual; I heard some sounds from the speakers, but then nothing else. I assumed it was done, but when I tried following further instructions ( > to display resultsÖ < to run the program again), nothing showed on itís display. So I just unplugged the mic and started playing another CD. I didnít notice any changes in SQ and 2 channel mode still sounded bad, so I said okay, maybe I need to have a monitor connected so I can see what the unitís trying to do, and tell me, so I wheeled out my heavy a$$ed CRT TV from the bedroom and connected itís Component video inputs to the Component Monitor out at the receiver. I wasnít sure if I was even going see anything on the TV, but sure enough when I turned things on again the TV was showing a background from the receiver. Nice picture too. A musical instrument of some kind. So I pressed Setup Menu on the remote and up popped the receiverís setup options. I said ALRIGHT! The GUI itself resembles FIOS's main menu where the top level of options is on the left and when you press the down or up arrow it imitates a rolling wheel with the selected one sliding inside a box in the center. You then press the right arrow to go to that options subset... and so on. This is the first piece of A/V gear that I've ever owned that has OSD, so I can't compare it to any other maker's OSD. Nevertheless, I like it but it's another case where I have to turn on the TV to do anything with the receiver, just like I have to do with a couple of DVD-A's that I own. I guess I still can't put my 25 year old 19" TV out to pasture quite yet.

-Continued on next post-

Rich-n-Texas
02-25-2008, 10:18 AM
Okay, round two of Auto EQ. I plugged the mic in again and this time the OSD popped up and went right to the auto calibration option. I pressed enter on the romote and off it went. I watched it to see what tests it was running (it updated the screen with each tests completion), and when it finished it went back up one menu level that showed items like retry, view results.. so I entered to see how things went. It showed that I had the right front and both surround speakers connected out-of-phase. It even showed a graph of the right, left and sub frequency response curves, and with each one that it indicated as out, the corresponding graph showed a large dip at the higher end of the scale (I think. Not remembering if the X-Y axies were labelled). Well, I didn't believe that I crossed up on three speakers, and there was no indication on the results display to tell me which one of the bi-amped speakers was out, but I reversed connections on the on the ones in question, reran the setup and this time it completed successfully. I exited out of the setup menu, unplugged the mic and plugged in Pink Floyd Division Bell for a serious listen (well, not real serious since I STILL CAN'T HEAR out of my left ear).

Apply all the normal cliches. I heard instruments, voices and effects I never heard before, much more presence in the room, a palpable sound field and good bass response. Yes, bass is better but as other have said, there's much room for improvement. The bad thing is, hearing so much detail for the first time was pretty much ruined by the fact that my left ear is like 6 - 8 dB down, which again is very annoying. I listened to the CD in Neo: 6 music, 2 channel stereo and pure direct. I have to be honest, the room filling effects of DTS pretty much made the stereo modes... well, boring (sorry purists, I guess I'm just spoiled). I later plugged in a Jazz CD but didn't sit down to give it a good listen, although when I was walking through the room, some of the instruments caught my attention (read... gave me goose bumps!)

So, that's pretty much where I am right now. I didn't do much with the video end of things because when I connected my DVD player to the DVD Component In at the receiver, all I saw was picture tearing as soon as I turned the player on. I think I may be conflicting with the receiver's GUI interface because when I press the setup option on the remote, I can see that the OSD is up, but the picture is still tearing. I'll play around more with that tonite.

Thanks for reading this.

GMichael
02-25-2008, 10:47 AM
Looks like you are having some fun there Rich. I remember going through all this. It took me several years before I almost stopped tweaking things.
Be sure to check the phase on those speaker wires carefully. These auto set-up features are notorious for saying that speakers are out of phase when they really are not. They did the same to me. Check and double check for yourself. Don't take the receiver's "word" for it. Some speaker manufacturers switch the phase on the tweeters to give you smoother highs. This throws those auto features into a tizzy.

ldgibson76
02-25-2008, 10:59 AM
Looks like you are having some fun there Rich. I remember going through all this. It took me several years before I almost stopped tweaking things.
Be sure to check the phase on those speaker wires carefully. These auto set-up features are notorious for saying that speakers are out of phase when they really are not. They did the same to me. Check and double check for yourself. Don't take the receiver's "word" for it. Some speaker manufacturers switch the phase on the tweeters to give you smoother highs. This throws those auto features into a tizzy.

You see GM, Audio is more important! "Tweaking for several years!"

And to you Rich, great review so far. Real world experience, unlike the pro reviewers. They usually test with peripheral gear that ridiculously high end and rarely mimics most readers actual experience at home. The Jazz CD scenario was a perfect example. You're doing great. You'll be tweaking for eons! I know I did with my Yamaha RX-V3000!

Rich-n-Texas
02-25-2008, 11:52 AM
Be sure to check the phase on those speaker wires carefully. These auto set-up features are notorious for saying that speakers are out of phase when they really are not. They did the same to me. Check and double check for yourself. Don't take the receiver's "word" for it. Some speaker manufacturers switch the phase on the tweeters to give you smoother highs. This throws those auto features into a tizzy.
Sounds like it would be a good idea to switch them back the way they were then huh?

Through all the years that I've connected, unconnected, moved, adjusted...etc., I've always been very anal about connecting speakers with correct polarity. Truth is, I didn't know until reading a post here recently that no harm can occur if they are reversed. I've never associated + & -/red & black with anything other than DC.

GMichael
02-25-2008, 11:59 AM
Sounds like it would be a good idea to switch them back the way they were then huh?

Through all the years that I've connected, unconnected, moved, adjusted...etc., I've always been very anal about connecting speakers with correct polarity. Truth is, I didn't know until reading a post here recently that no harm can occur if they are reversed. I've never associated + & -/red & black with anything other than DC.

No harm? Not to the equipment, but it will kill your base.

Rich-n-Texas
02-25-2008, 12:53 PM
I don't get it. What base?

GMichael
02-25-2008, 01:09 PM
I don't get it. What base?

If you have the polarity reversed on your speakers, the bass waves can cancel each other out. While one speaker is pushing the other is pulling. When these two waves meet, you get zip for bass.

Rich-n-Texas
02-25-2008, 01:14 PM
Ah, but you said "base". A mortal sin in this community GM.:hand:

GMichael
02-25-2008, 01:17 PM
Ah, but you said "base". A mortal sin in this community GM.:hand:

No one was injured in my usage of the word base.
This has been an AR public announcement
:prrr:

audio amateur
02-25-2008, 01:18 PM
Sacrilege!!! I'm glad you picked up Rich, I was about to have a heart attack. Shame on you GM!

Rich-n-Texas
02-25-2008, 01:22 PM
:ihih:

GMichael
02-25-2008, 01:26 PM
BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE BASE

Rich-n-Texas
02-25-2008, 01:31 PM
No wonder it took so long for the friggin' page to load. :rolleyes:

audio amateur
02-25-2008, 03:03 PM
ROFL I think we got'm pissed:D

pixelthis
02-26-2008, 01:09 AM
No wonder it took so long for the friggin' page to load. :rolleyes:

Daddy sang BASS (mama sang tenor)

I too liked pro logic music and neo six modes, but eventually went back to two channel.
Give up on the YPAO (or whatever) pull out the sound meter:1:

GMichael
02-26-2008, 06:13 AM
I like using the auto set-up and a test meter. The YPAO does a fine job on some things, but it's good to check for yourself.
As much as this pains me to type, I agree with Pix. (I think I just threw up a little in my mouth) The Neo6's and like are fun but in the end I also went back to 2 channel for music. STRAIGHT mode has become my favorite. Whatever comes in, goes out (plus the sub). Minimal processing.

Rich-n-Texas
02-26-2008, 06:36 AM
Can I use the mic to manually do things like run the polarity test, check the results, make corrections at the speaker terminal then rerun the test? I suspect I can because, even without the mic connected I can go into those menus, select the "wiring check" test and then enter, but when I check the results there's no change in the results dialog. This happens even when I go to a speaker, swap + & - and rerun the test.

I say that if I had the mic connected, the result would reflect the wire swap.

Edit: I looked this up in the manual but it looks like I can't make manual settings changes when in Auto (individaul tests then check result), but instead I have to start the test from the beginning, or go into full manual mode. No biggie. Also, I saw a note in the troubleshooting guide for YPAO which verifies what GM said earlier about polarity. I'll change them back to what they were.

ldgibson76
02-26-2008, 06:02 PM
Hello Rich!

Any new developments in your RX-V3800 integration thus far?! Have you discovered anything new or exciting?! And did you receiver the banana plugs yet?!

pixelthis
02-27-2008, 12:08 AM
I like using the auto set-up and a test meter. The YPAO does a fine job on some things, but it's good to check for yourself.
As much as this pains me to type, I agree with Pix. (I think I just threw up a little in my mouth) The Neo6's and like are fun but in the end I also went back to 2 channel for music. STRAIGHT mode has become my favorite. Whatever comes in, goes out (plus the sub). Minimal processing.

You agree with me?
Now I will have to reevaluate EVERYTHING

You like the ypao because you're lazy.
And I hate to agree with you (just threw up on my crack-ho) but in this case Ypao
might be better, if for no other reason than the receiver is probably smarter than rich:1:

Rich-n-Texas
02-27-2008, 05:18 AM
You agree with me?
Now I will have to reevaluate EVERYTHING

You like the ypao because you're lazy.
And I hate to agree with you (just threw up on my crack-ho) but in this case Ypao
might be better, if for no other reason than the receiver is probably smarter than rich:1:
Correct. I can use it as a good starting point because for one thing it's organized; runs the proper tests in the right order as opposed to me guessing which calculation I should pick, and when I should run it. Plus, there are no variables like an ear that's stopped up, an anebriated(sp?) brain, especially on Fridays and Saturdays ( :ihih: ), and it runs in about two minutes. I know full well that further tweaking will be necessary, but that's fine, I'll learn something. In the meantime I've gained a major improvement in sound quality across the entire spectrum.

I sat in the room last night and listened to one of my Genesis DVD-A's; I used DTS 96/24 and I'm now starting to feel the mid & low freq's in my chest. That's something that, no matter how high I cranked the volume on my 5740, I could never feel. This is good. The sub's got more punch and tightness, and I know that when the rest of the acoustic panels are in place there should be a drastic improvement from that perspective.

Rich-n-Texas
02-27-2008, 05:32 AM
Hello Rich!

Any new developments in your RX-V3800 integration thus far?! Have you discovered anything new or exciting?! And did you receiver the banana plugs yet?!
Id, the banana plugs (28 pairs) shipped yesterday afternoon. Shipping charge was a bit steep, but they're coming via UPS. Say what ya want about UPS, then I'll say something about DHL. :lol:

I discovered last night that the Music Enhancer mode brings harshness to all the frequencies, and then I remembered... oh yeah, that's for MP3's. Sounded nasty when the Jeff Beck CD was spinning. :o


Oh yeah, once everything is set up, will you evaluate the DSP modes to see if there has been an improvement in execution over your last Yammie?! Remember that at one time, that was Yamaha's primary weapon, if you will, in their AVR's. Now with the new Hi-Rez formats, the question is whether or not the DSP's have lessened in importance
I scrolled through these a couple of days ago but I haven't applied them yet to any content. I'll get to it ASAP.

audio amateur
02-27-2008, 05:33 AM
As much as this pains me to type, I agree with Pix. (I think I just threw up a little in my mouth)
How the hell does he come up with these things?? Another of the funniest things I've read. You're in a league of your own GM

GMichael
02-27-2008, 06:17 AM
You agree with me?
Now I will have to reevaluate EVERYTHING

You like the ypao because you're lazy.
And I hate to agree with you (just threw up on my crack-ho) but in this case Ypao
might be better, if for no other reason than the receiver is probably smarter than rich:1:

And then, he returned.

GMichael
02-27-2008, 06:28 AM
How the hell does he come up with these things?? Another of the funniest things I've read. You're in a league of your own GM

Thank you. Thank you.

Rich-n-Texas
02-27-2008, 06:33 AM
And then, he returned.
I think we should let the sleeping dog lie.

GMichael
02-27-2008, 06:49 AM
I think we should let the sleeping dog lie.

Oh man! You called him a sleepy a$$ lying dog, all in one shot. Sneaky!:lol:

Rich-n-Texas
02-27-2008, 06:57 AM
A$$? Where did I say a$$?

Seriously though

L.J.
02-27-2008, 07:25 AM
Well it sounds like everything is going good. Rich do you own a analog RS meter? If not put it on your list. The auto setup is good, but not perfect. I'm not even using the YPAO right now and set everything manually.The tweaker in me has to go back and double check everything. Also, I don't trust the sub measurements so I go back and adjust that to flat since I take care of the sub myself. I go back and forth with the auto setup thing I guess.

I LOVE the adjustablity of these units. You can go in and tweak almost everything :3:

As GM said, I use the "straight" mode more than anything else. I still mess around though. I actually still got some more tweaking to do myself.

Rich-n-Texas
02-27-2008, 07:45 AM
Well it sounds like everything is going good. Rich do you own a analog RS meter? If not put it on your list. The auto setup is good, but not perfect. I'm not even using the YPAO right now and set everything manually.The tweaker in me has to go back and double check everything. Also, I don't trust the sub measurements so I go back and adjust that to flat since I take care of the sub myself. I go back and forth with the auto setup thing I guess.

I LOVE the adjustablity of these units. You can go in and tweak almost everything :3:

As GM said, I use the "straight" mode more than anything else. I still mess around though. I actually still got some more tweaking to do myself.
I have an SPL meter that I borrowed from work. I used it before so I'm comfortable that it'll do what I need it to do. I agree that YPAO isn't perfect, but just watching what it's doing is a learning experience. It showed one of my surrounds as 80' away but again, the beauty of this is that I can run it as often as I like. As far as the sub, the manual indicates that the crossover should be set to max which I found interesting. People here have indicated otherwise in the past.

Refresh me: When in straight mode, what channels are active?

L.J.
02-27-2008, 09:12 AM
I have an SPL meter that I borrowed from work. I used it before so I'm comfortable that it'll do what I need it to do. I agree that YPAO isn't perfect, but just watching what it's doing is a learning experience. It showed one of my surrounds as 80' away but again, the beauty of this is that I can run it as often as I like. As far as the sub, the manual indicates that the crossover should be set to max which I found interesting. People here have indicated otherwise in the past.

Refresh me: When in straight mode, what channels are active?

Straight....what goes in comes out. No DSP.

GMichael
02-27-2008, 09:27 AM
Refresh me: When in straight mode, what channels are active?

2 channels in = 2.1 out
5.1 in = 5.1 out
7.1 in = 7.1 out

ldgibson76
02-27-2008, 10:05 AM
2 channels in = 2.1 out
5.1 in = 5.1 out
7.1 in = 7.1 out

Hello "GM"!

2 channels in = 2.1 out?!!!!!!:confused5:
Is that a new Yamaha thing?! Or are you associating "Stereo" mode with "Direct" mode? Because I know with my Marantz, Direct/Source Direct, or whatever it's referred to, only sends L & R, no sub signal. Now in Stereo mode, I do get 2.1 out. I'm going to check my Yammie 3000 and see if in Direct mode, does it output a subwofer signal. Then again, that receiver is 7 years old and still flawless, and they may have changed some things. I have to give it Yamaha, They can build a quality product!

And remember Rich, you can go straight 2 channel in "Stereo" mode, by deactivating the Sub and switch your fronts to Large. I do that sometimes because in Direct mode when using the Klipschs which are somewhat anemic on the bass side, I don't get the adequate low end so depending on what I'm listening to, I switch the fronts to large and up the bass output to compensate. Yes there's some processing, but not much. And it sounds good. Food for thought.
That's one of the main reasons why I'm replacing the Klipschs with Paradigms.

Regards.

GMichael
02-27-2008, 10:15 AM
Hello "GM"!

2 channels in = 2.1 out?!!!!!!:confused5:
Is that a new Yamaha thing?! Or are you associating "Stereo" mode with "Direct" mode? Because I know with my Marantz, Direct/Source Direct, or whatever it's referred to, only sends L & R, no sub signal. Now in Stereo mode, I do get 2.1 out. I'm going to check my Yammie 3000 and see if in Direct mode, does it output a subwofer signal. Then again, that receiver is 7 years old and still flawless, and they may have changed some things. I have to give it Yamaha, They can build a quality product!

Regards.

With my RX-V2500, Straight mode gives me sub output while Pure direct does not. I'm sure that it can be altered in the settings though. Maybe set "bass" output to mains (or fronts) only. I have mine set on "both". Not sure how it works with the 3000.
Straight mode also keeps the internal EQ in play where as Pure Direct bypasses everything. I have a challenging room so I still need the EQ for now.


So far I like this Yammie very much. Not as much fun as my 360 Enduro was, but still a great unit.

L.J.
02-27-2008, 10:27 AM
Is the processing really that much of a concern to you guys?

How often do you guys listen in "pure" mode? No sub?

ldgibson76
02-27-2008, 10:28 AM
With my RX-V2500, Straight mode gives me sub output while Pure direct does not. I'm sure that it can be altered in the settings though. Maybe set "bass" output to mains (or fronts) only. I have mine set on "both". Not sure how it works with the 3000.
Straight mode also keeps the internal EQ in play where as Pure Direct bypasses everything. I have a challenging room so I still need the EQ for now.


So far I like this Yammie very much. Not as much fun as my 360 Enduro was, but still a great unit.

"GM"!

Good lookin' out! I appreciate the education.

Hey Rich, isn't a lovely feeling when you finally get a system altering piece like your RX-V3800, and then start discovering and experience the improvements?! Although the thrill is temporary, but during that time, there's nothing like it, wouldn't you agree?!:3:

GMichael
02-27-2008, 10:40 AM
Is the processing really that much of a concern to you guys?

How often do you guys listen in "pure" mode? No sub?

If all I ever listened to were the DSP modes then I would say that they sound fantastic. It wasn't until I switched back and forth a few times that I noticed how much better the Straight mode sounded to me. I never use Pure mode though because of how harsh it becomes in my room. I need the EQ to chop off a couple of spikes around 4300 and 6500 htz.

How about you? What modes do you use the most and why?

ldgibson76
02-27-2008, 10:41 AM
Is the processing really that much of a concern to you guys?

How often do you guys listen in "pure" mode? No sub?

Hello "L.J."!
I don't know about the others, but I listen to 2 channel stereo often. That's because I love to listen to music in it's purest form. Of course I use my sub when I'm listening to SACD's or DVD-A's. That's because in most cases, there is a track/signal dedicated to the sub woofer.
There are some exceptions when it comes to SACD. Some SACD's are strickly 2 channel.
When video is involved, the sub is always active!

ldgibson76
02-27-2008, 10:54 AM
If all I ever listened to were the DSP modes then I would say that they sound fantastic. It wasn't until I switched back and forth a few times that I noticed how much better the Straight mode sounded to me. I never use Pure mode though because of how harsh it becomes in my room. I need the EQ to chop off a couple of spikes around 4300 and 6500 htz.

How about you? What modes do you use the most and why?

Good Question "GM".

When the Yammie the had the main system duties, before being replaced by the Marantz, I would utilize the multiple "Jazz Club"
modes, when of course, listening to Jazz. I would sometimes try the "Stadium" modes when watching football games, but the reverberations would become annoying after 5 - 10 minutes.
I'd end up going back to 8 channel stereo. All of the DSP's are cool and all, but I just didn't have a use for them. The Marantz is more simplistic in that regard. 8 or 9 modes. The 3000 for instance has 61 soundfields and 48 modes!:eek6: :rolleyes5: :sosp: What the hell is that all about!?! Even true audio purist woould never use the "Heidleberg Concert Hall" mode when listening to classical. 2 channel (Pure) is usually the choice according to most claims on other audio forums.

Rich-n-Texas
02-27-2008, 11:01 AM
"GM"!

Good lookin' out! I appreciate the education.

Hey Rich, isn't a lovely feeling when you finally get a system altering piece like your RX-V3800, and then start discovering and experience the improvements?! Although the thrill is temporary, but during that time, there's nothing like it, wouldn't you agree?!:3:
Without a doubt Id, without a doubt. :thumbsup: And I just luuuuuuuv hearing everybody talking about their Yamaha's. I bought my first one with one fact in mind that an engineer I work with, who was involved in the development of the TI Speak-n-Spell project also purchased a Yamaha receiver.

2 channels in = 2.1 out
5.1 in = 5.1 out
7.1 in = 7.1 out
Excellent! Thank you. I though straight meant the same as 2 channels active regardless of the source format.

gjpham
02-27-2008, 11:22 AM
[FONT=Arial].... The first CD (for you rush fans) was Snakes & Arrows. ......

Is this the same one? http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Sealed-CD-RUSH-SNAKES-AND-ARROWS_W0QQitemZ230227100205QQihZ013QQcategoryZ307 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Rich-n-Texas
02-27-2008, 11:37 AM
Probably gjpham. Never bought CD's from eBay though.

L.J.
02-27-2008, 02:56 PM
If all I ever listened to were the DSP modes then I would say that they sound fantastic. It wasn't until I switched back and forth a few times that I noticed how much better the Straight mode sounded to me. I never use Pure mode though because of how harsh it becomes in my room. I need the EQ to chop off a couple of spikes around 4300 and 6500 htz.

How about you? What modes do you use the most and why?

95% straight and 5% pure for music lately. I just don't sit and listen like I used to :(


For movies it's mostly straight but sometimes I use the movie DSP modes. I have presence speakers hooked up so I like to use those sometimes. Sounds great either way to me.

GMichael
02-27-2008, 02:59 PM
95% straight and 5% pure for music lately. I just don't sit and listen like I used to :(


For movies it's mostly straight but sometimes I use the movie DSP modes. I have presence speakers hooked up so I like to use those sometimes. Sounds great either way to me.

95% straight for me too.
5% Neo6 for the Sci-fi channel. (it only comes in, in 2 channel here)

Rich-n-Texas
02-27-2008, 03:01 PM
95% straight? Man, you guys are boring.

Wait a minute, maybe I shouldn't have put it quite that way...

diggity
02-28-2008, 05:09 AM
95% straight? Man, you guys are boring.

Wait a minute, maybe I shouldn't have put it quite that way...

oh hi darlingsss..lol :prrr: i tend to listen to music in pure direct cause i think it sounds crisper. but i listen to club music so it probably doesn't matter, but with everything else i use straight.

how did you find the 7.1 channel playback from 5.1 movies? i have currently got a 3800 test unit at my place and am finding it not too good. but i have been busy awith stocktake adjusting at work and probably just need time to play around with it. but i cant wait to play with the new rxv-z11. should be good.

cheers: dazza

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 05:49 AM
oh hi darlingsss..lol :prrr: i tend to listen to music in pure direct cause i think it sounds crisper. but i listen to club music so it probably doesn't matter, but with everything else i use straight.
Well, with so many different modes for audio playback to choose from, I just feel like I'm cheating myself by not spending any time with them. I'm a big fan of DTS so that's generally where I gravitate to. I just read through the manual where it explains all the different audio/video sound field programs ("Hall in Vienna", The Roxy Theater, and various movie modes), so I should at least try them out.


how did you find the 7.1 channel playback from 5.1 movies? i have currently got a 3800 test unit at my place and am finding it not too good. but i have been busy awith stocktake adjusting at work and probably just need time to play around with it. but i cant wait to play with the new rxv-z11. should be good.

cheers: dazza
Truthfully, with my current hearing loss issue, I've only watched one movie, and I listened in 5.1. I don't have anything connected to the Surround Back speaker connections so I really can't answer that question at this time.

GMichael
02-28-2008, 05:53 AM
Well, with so many different modes for audio playback to choose from, I just feel like I'm cheating myself by not spending any time with them. I just read through the manual where it explains all the different audio/video sound field programs ("Hall in Vienna", The Roxy Theater, and various movie modes), so I should at least try them out.

.

My wife likes using these when she does karaoke. It's fun and makes her sound like she's in a concert.

L.J.
02-28-2008, 06:55 AM
i have currently got a 3800 test unit at my place and am finding it not too good. but i have been busy awith stocktake adjusting at work and probably just need time to play around with it. but i cant wait to play with the new rxv-z11. should be good.

cheers: dazza

Really, why are looking at a 3800 or z11?

mustang
02-28-2008, 10:54 AM
<O:p</O:pThe next thing I did was prepare for the auto EQ program. I mounted the microphone on my cameraís tripod as recommended, put it in the center of the room and arranged the existing furniture to simulate approximately what the room will resemble...-

You need to run that YPAO again. Your mic should be set at the listening position. I'm running an RX-V1400 with YPAO with excellent results. I think that might explain your speaker phase and distance issues. You should become more familiar with the owner's manual. There is alot of information in there. You should still use that tripod, just keep the legs short and park it right where you'd park yourself. That 3800 is a sweet unit.

kexodusc
02-28-2008, 11:32 AM
If all I ever listened to were the DSP modes then I would say that they sound fantastic. It wasn't until I switched back and forth a few times that I noticed how much better the Straight mode sounded to me. I never use Pure mode though because of how harsh it becomes in my room. I need the EQ to chop off a couple of spikes around 4300 and 6500 htz.

How about you? What modes do you use the most and why?

Music = Straight/Direct/Pure depending on my mood - straight is my favorite cause it sounds so good with the subs.

I really enjoy the theater DSP's on the Yammies. They are so much better than the crap that my other receivers had. I use these at least half the time, but I try and listen to a good special effect laden movie with just standard 5.1 processing. There's something very different about home theater and I think it just comes down to size - your room is much, much smaller. A good DSP doesn't fully recreate the large scale experience, but it's a step closer IMO.

I use PL IIx for all non 5.1 TV sources though. DTS Neo 6 does something similar, but IMO isn't as good. Dunno why. DTS blows the snot out of Dolby in straight 5.1 processing.

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 11:52 AM
You need to run that YPAO again. Your mic should be set at the listening position. I'm running an RX-V1400 with YPAO with excellent results. I think that might explain your speaker phase and distance issues. You should become more familiar with the owner's manual. There is alot of information in there. You should still use that tripod, just keep the legs short and park it right where you'd park yourself. That 3800 is a sweet unit.
You can count on it mustang! (Can't believe I just typed mustang. Speedy, come over here and shoot me!) Nothing personal dude. :thumbsup:

I'm spending a LOT more time with the users manual because yes, it's packed with useful info (Much more useful than what I get from L.J. :rolleyes: ). I D/L'ed it and I use Adobe Reader to get me where I need to go when I have a problem or question about something I'm trying to do.

I should have corrected myself earlier. I mounted the mic on the tripod then placed it at the top of the equalateral triangle, ear height, which is coincedentally just about at my normal listening position. I'm curious to see if the results still indicate an 80' distance for my left surround speaker though. There was nothing blocking it from the mic.

Oh, forgot to mention... That is one gargantious CC speaker!

mustang
02-28-2008, 12:25 PM
You can count on it mustang! (Can't believe I just typed mustang. Speedy, come over here and shoot me!) Nothing personal dude. :thumbsup:

Oh, forgot to mention... That is one gargantious CC speaker!

To each his own. Either way, there's nothing like an American V8. Center speaker is DIY with dual Dayton 8" DVC subwoofers, dual Dayton 5 1/4" mids, and a Dayton tweeter from Parts-Express.

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 12:42 PM
Any time I go to Parts Express homepage I'm tantalized by their DIY speaker kits. I want to try to repair my old Pioneer "Sonic" speakers circa late 70's for my two channel room, but i I can't I'd certainly consider the DIY route.

BTW, my first speaker DIY was with a speaker out of an old TV mounted in a shoebox. I was very proud of that accomplishment. (That's a hint GM... take heed!)

GMichael
02-28-2008, 12:48 PM
Any time I go to Parts Express homepage I'm tantalized by their DIY speaker kits. I want to try to repair my old Pioneer "Sonic" speakers circa late 70's for my two channel room, but i I can't I'd certainly consider the DIY route.

BTW, my first speaker DIY was with a speaker out of an old TV mounted in a shoebox. I was very proud of that accomplishment. (That's a hint GM... take heed!)

I don't get it. I must be slipping.

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 01:10 PM
Sorry. I had you mistaken for pix. Don't know what I was thinking.

GMichael
02-28-2008, 01:34 PM
That hurt.:sad:

pixelthis
02-28-2008, 03:49 PM
Sorry. I had you mistaken for pix. Don't know what I was thinking.

We all have our little lapses.
We're easy to tell apart. My I.Q is a lot higher than your average shrub.
And acrobat is a usefull tool, but its sad that you have to have a computer to understand the owners manuel (how do you get it into the bathroom, is it a laptop)?

Rich-n-Texas
02-28-2008, 04:16 PM
When oh LORD are you going to start spelling m-a-n-u-A-l right.

I get into the bathroom on my wheelchair, how else?

GMichael
02-28-2008, 04:42 PM
We all have our little lapses.
We're easy to tell apart. My I.Q is a lot higher than your average shrub.
And acrobat is a usefull tool, but its sad that you have to have a computer to understand the owners manuel (how do you get it into the bathroom, is it a laptop)?

Please don't call me a shrub. Not unless you want to trim me.

Oh, and my IQ is a lot higher than I would have ever guessed.

diggity
02-28-2008, 11:10 PM
Really, why are looking at a 3800 or z11?

niether..lol we just got the yamaha account at work so i am getting test units to fiddle around with so i can sell/install easier.

cheers: dazza

diggity
02-28-2008, 11:13 PM
i would say shrub is a pretty good description of mine. in fact i couldn't even spell I.Q so i copied it off previous points so i hope it is right.

cheers: dazza

L.J.
02-29-2008, 07:22 AM
niether..lol we just got the yamaha account at work so i am getting test units to fiddle around with so i can sell/install easier.

cheers: dazza

I was just curious. I didn't find too many difference between the 2700/3800 besides the price. HD audio decoding was the biggest difference. Rich came out good though since he paid almost what I did for my 2700 :incazzato:

Rich-n-Texas
02-29-2008, 08:12 AM
Dream Theater's "Systematic Chaos" got the nod last night, and I listened in it's Dolby Digital 5.1 native format. First, two slightly OT observations:
1.) Mike Portnoy is like a percussionist on Steroids. The guy is just unbelievable. He can do more with his two feet than three drummers can do with their hands!
2.) While sitting there enjoying the tunes, my room became dimmer. I looked over at the light (it's a pole lamp with five bulbs that I have pointed up and reflecting against the wall) and saw that three bulbs were out. Now, I'm not going to say it was because of the drums and the volume, it could just be that they were on their way out anyway. Begs the question though, at least in my mind... is this amount of power capable of breaking filaments in incandesant light bulbs?

Anyway, I played around a bit with the different DSP modes while listening: "Live/Club" and then the individual clubs: "The Roxy", "Village Vanguard", "The Bottom Line", and although I could tell that I was hearing what a live rendition of the album would sound like, I couldn't really distinguish between each of them. BUT, if my hearing was back to normal and all of my room treatments were in place I'm willing to bet there would be a discernible difference.

I went back to DD and was quite happy with how well the receiver reproduced all of the instruments across all 6 channels as intended by the "Enhanced" recording. I could easily make out a piano passage coming from the rear left, voices during the song "Repentance" coming from 4 channels all at once and then individual channels all around the room, and the punch from the drums throughout the entire CD.

Something I noticed is that with this DD CD, I wasn't able to change the surround decode to DTS. That tells me the decoders don't/won't convert one surround format to another, correct? Also, I wasn't able to use 3D DSP, but I think I read that it's only available when the Presence speakers are connected.

Bottom line: A very enjoyable audition last night. :thumbsup:

Rich-n-Texas
02-29-2008, 08:22 AM
I was just curious. I didn't find too many difference between the 2700/3800 besides the price. HD audio decoding was the biggest difference. Rich came out good though since he paid almost what I did for my 2700 :incazzato:
If I could afford to fly you down here to Dallas L.J. I'd treat you to the biggest steak these hillbillies have to offer. Trust me on that one! There are some great steakhouses here. :yesnod:

OTOH, I'd probably start hearing a bunch of whining from the likes of GM, sticks, Mr. P.... and the list goes on and on. :rolleyes:

GMichael
02-29-2008, 08:56 AM
If I could afford to fly you down here to Dallas L.J. I'd treat you to the biggest steak these hillbillies have to offer. Trust me on that one! There are some great steakhouses here. :yesnod:

OTOH, I'd probably start hearing a bunch of whining from the likes of GM, sticks, Mr. P.... and the list goes on and on. :rolleyes:

You guys are making me hungry.
hmmmmm There's a place not far from here that makes a prim rib so big that one serving could feed 4 very hungry, very big men. I may have to swing by on the way home (if the snow isn't too bad by then).

ldgibson76
02-29-2008, 09:48 AM
If I could afford to fly you down here to Dallas L.J. I'd treat you to the biggest steak these hillbillies have to offer. Trust me on that one! There are some great steakhouses here. :yesnod:

OTOH, I'd probably start hearing a bunch of whining from the likes of GM, sticks, Mr. P.... and the list goes on and on. :rolleyes:

Hey Rich!

Have you ever eaten at "Cool River"?! The last time I was in Dallas, I discovered that "Sullivan's" is top shelf down there. Up here in the Northeast, it falls in between Outback and Ruth Chris. And let's not even talk about the Gentlemen clubs down there. Even the steaks prepared in some of those establishments are considered 4 and 5 star! :3:
Dude, we have to talk!:ihih:

Rich-n-Texas
02-29-2008, 10:58 AM
Hey Rich!

Have you ever eaten at "Cool River"?! The last time I was in Dallas, I discovered that "Sullivan's" is top shelf down there. Up here in the Northeast, it falls in between Outback and Ruth Chris. And let's not even talk about the Gentlemen clubs down there. Even the steaks prepared in some of those establishments are considered 4 and 5 star! :3:
Dude, we have to talk!:ihih:
Get me tickets to the NASCAR race in Dover and we'll talk. :ihih:

Rich-n-Texas
02-29-2008, 11:08 AM
Seriously though, I'm certain I drove past Cool River just the other day. I think it's in Addison... or Carrollton. Fogo De Chao is the hot spot for steaks these days, which is in Addison. I've already dispersed my profit sharing deposit so I'll have to wait until next year before I can visit restaurants with those kinds of price tags though. On a side note... Angus Ribeyes and Sirloin steaks are priced at $11 - 12/lb in the grocery stores. That's right, 12 bucks a pound... in Texas. WTF???:incazzato:

diggity
02-29-2008, 11:04 PM
I was just curious. I didn't find too many difference between the 2700/3800 besides the price. HD audio decoding was the biggest difference. Rich came out good though since he paid almost what I did for my 2700 :incazzato:

yeah i agree i was pi$$ed when that came out at the same price as i paid for mine, but i wouldnt trade my 2700. it is trully an awesome amp or the price. interestingly yamaha have responded to onkyo's 605 by making their entire range hdmi ready. the new range from the little baby entry level amp right through to the top amps... and all at the same price as old series.
but rich is safe, they havent upgraded the 1800 or 3800 amps

cheers: dazza

diggity
02-29-2008, 11:12 PM
what kind of music is "systematic chaos"?
are steak houses over there like the ones in the movies? when i hear about steakhouses all i canthink of is the one in the john candy movie : 'great outdoors" when he ordered "the ol' 49er" , a massive steak the size of a dinner plate.

cheers:dazza

pixelthis
03-02-2008, 10:17 PM
Dream Theater's "Systematic Chaos" got the nod last night, and I listened in it's Dolby Digital 5.1 native format. First, two slightly OT observations:
1.) Mike Portnoy is like a percussionist on Steroids. The guy is just unbelievable. He can do more with his two feet than three drummers can do with their hands!
2.) While sitting there enjoying the tunes, my room became dimmer. I looked over at the light (it's a pole lamp with five bulbs that I have pointed up and reflecting against the wall) and saw that three bulbs were out. Now, I'm not going to say it was because of the drums and the volume, it could just be that they were on their way out anyway. Begs the question though, at least in my mind... is this amount of power capable of breaking filaments in incandesant light bulbs?

Anyway, I played around a bit with the different DSP modes while listening: "Live/Club" and then the individual clubs: "The Roxy", "Village Vanguard", "The Bottom Line", and although I could tell that I was hearing what a live rendition of the album would sound like, I couldn't really distinguish between each of them. BUT, if my hearing was back to normal and all of my room treatments were in place I'm willing to bet there would be a discernible difference.

I went back to DD and was quite happy with how well the receiver reproduced all of the instruments across all 6 channels as intended by the "Enhanced" recording. I could easily make out a piano passage coming from the rear left, voices during the song "Repentance" coming from 4 channels all at once and then individual channels all around the room, and the punch from the drums throughout the entire CD.

Something I noticed is that with this DD CD, I wasn't able to change the surround decode to DTS. That tells me the decoders don't/won't convert one surround format to another, correct? Also, I wasn't able to use 3D DSP, but I think I read that it's only available when the Presence speakers are connected.

Bottom line: A very enjoyable audition last night. :thumbsup:

Correct.
If you have a 2 channel track on this disc you can use DTS neo on it.
But you can't convert DD to DTS.
And I read an article from this archaic thing called a Magazine about how Yamaha worked so hard on those modes. I couldnt tell the diff in them either.
Oh, and us hicks are the ones that invented steak, BTW.

AND I dont think you will have anything to worry about on the heat issue, a lot of these newer receivers run a tad "hot", like that Walker chic in Body Heat:1:

Rich-n-Texas
03-03-2008, 05:48 AM
what kind of music is "systematic chaos"?
I call it heavy metal, but Dream Theater purists would probably clobber me for saying that. You can sample it on Amazon (I assume you can do that in Australia as well), and I purchased the "Special Edition" in Dolby Digital.

are steak houses over there like the ones in the movies? when i hear about steakhouses all i canthink of is the one in the john candy movie : 'great outdoors" when he ordered "the ol' 49er" , a massive steak the size of a dinner plate.

cheers:dazza
Yes, you can get steaks here that'll hang off the plate. I can't remember the name of it, but when you come into this particular restaurant, and you're wearing a tie the hostess attempts to cut it off (I think the idea there is that you'll ruin your tie anyway from dipping it in your steak). You sit at picnic tables, there are attractions for the kiddies, and you can spend hours there eating. I think I mentioned earlier that steak prices are up around $12.00/lb, so Im betting places like that are suffering right now.

Edit: The name of the restuarant is Trail Dust, and they have cut off ties hanging on the walls.

Rich-n-Texas
03-03-2008, 06:15 AM
And I read an article from this archaic thing called a Magazine
In the latest (I think) issue of S&V magazine, there's a feature article that lists some info about the "Editors Choice Awards" for different categories of home A/V, and it seems like, at least in the receiver awards section they picked 2 - 3 receivers as the best. I thought the idea here was to have only one winner? Thruthfully I'm becoming a bit disillusioned with this particular rag because it seems like they're just a storefront for the manufacturers...etc. that advertise in them. I know the big full page ad for the Def Tech towers by heart. Can't miss it. It's on page 3. Every issue...

about how Yamaha worked so hard on those modes. I couldnt tell the diff in them either.
I mentioned my current conditions (room treatments, hearing problems), and I'm sure that if Yamaha went to the work to incorporate these theater experiences into a DSP, the difference will be noticable to me... eventually.

Oh, and us hicks are the ones that invented steak, BTW.
Oh. I thought it was God who did that. :idea:


AND I dont think you will have anything to worry about on the heat issue, a lot of these newer receivers run a tad "hot", like that Walker chic in Body Heat:1:
No harm in trying to extend it's life though right?

Rich-n-Texas
03-04-2008, 07:04 AM
I completed all necessary in-wall and speaker cable wiring last night, so all but the furniture and some more acuostic panels are in place. I've laid out the speakers as advised here and I think the sub is where it needs to be. I have all of my components connected, with my FIOS DVR connected via HDMI through the receiver, and while watching Terminator: SCC last night I heard a major audio improvement over my old setup.

I'll be starting another thread soon that'll include a room diagram which is a revision of the previously posted one, and I'll also include some of the finer details of the room construction like the completed wall plates w/connections and some pics of the speaker cable assembly with those pretty, black chrome banana plugs.

Time for some REAL tweaking! :thumbsup:

f0rge
03-04-2008, 07:20 AM
glad you're enjoying the unit, i'm about to pull the trigger on an RX-V1800 myself.

have you tested the Dolby TrueHD or DTS MA yet? i didnt notice a bluray player in your sig but i thought i'd ask anyway ;)

Rich-n-Texas
03-04-2008, 07:25 AM
No Blu-Ray player yet, but I'll for sure be an owner of one by the end of the summer.
:smilewinkgrin: <=== No kissy face included.

GMichael
03-04-2008, 07:27 AM
I completed all necessary in-wall and speaker cable wiring last night, so all but the furniture and some more acuostic panels are in place. I've laid out the speakers as advised here and I think the sub is where it needs to be. I have all of my components connected, with my FIOS DVR connected via HDMI through the receiver, and while watching Terminator: SCC last night I heard a major audio improvement over my old setup.

I'll be starting another thread soon that'll include a room diagram which is a revision of the previously posted one, and I'll also include some of the finer details of the room construction like the completed wall plates w/connections and some pics of the speaker cable assembly with those pretty, black chrome banana plugs.

Time for some REAL tweaking! :thumbsup:

SCC? Have you been joining in over at AVS?

Glad you're enjoying your new unit. What's next?

f0rge
03-04-2008, 07:30 AM
SCC? Have you been joining in over at AVS?

hey that show is pretty good...

Rich-n-Texas
03-04-2008, 07:41 AM
SCC? Have you been joining in over at AVS?
Didn't know there was one. It isn't 20,000 posts long I hope. :rolleyes:


Glad you're enjoying your new unit. What's next?
Thanks. I'd have to say the next component will be a Blu-ray player in the fall, and after that I may end up replacing the surround speakers with bookshelf units. The P6's will always be an issue because there's really no safe way to raise them above the furniture line-of-site no matter where I place them (the base speaker sits well below ear level). In the meantime, lots of receiver education.

GMichael
03-04-2008, 07:52 AM
Didn't know there was one. It isn't 20,000 posts long I hope. :rolleyes:

.

Only 1200 or so. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=885308&page=41

Rich-n-Texas
03-04-2008, 08:15 AM
Last night's episode was the season finale right? Luckily I had my DVR setup on time so it got recorded. I wasn't paying very close attention to what was going on, but I'm SURE Cameron will come out of the Jeep explosion unscathed. If she doesn't there'll no longer be any need to watch the show. :ihih:

GMichael
03-04-2008, 08:22 AM
Last night's episode was the season finale right? Luckily I had my DVR setup on time so it got recorded. I wasn't paying very close attention to what was going on, but I'm SURE Cameron will come out of the Jeep explosion unscathed. If she doesn't there'll no longer be any need to watch the show. :ihih:
There have been a couple of views on that. Some think that she slipped out before it blew. Others think she'll come out fine, but with no skin left. Once she grows it back, she may, or may not, be played by Summer next season.

f0rge
03-04-2008, 08:29 AM
after all the hype for the cromartie-fbi shootout i was a little dissapointed with what they actually showed.

but still loving the show

GMichael
03-04-2008, 08:35 AM
after all the hype for the cromartie-fbi shootout i was a little dissapointed with what they actually showed.

but still loving the show

TV budget wouldn't allow for all the special effects that would have been needed to do that right. But I love the way they did it with Ol' Johnny singing as they flew into the pool. I've been loving the show. We'll have to start a new thread on it next season.

Rich-n-Texas
03-04-2008, 08:49 AM
There have been a couple of views on that. Some think that she slipped out before it blew. Others think she'll come out fine, but with no skin left. Once she grows it back, she may, or may not, be played by Summer next season.
I slipped out before it blew too!

GMichael
03-04-2008, 09:24 AM
I slipped out before it blew too!

That's not as much fun as.... uh, what was this thead about again?

Rich-n-Texas
03-04-2008, 10:56 AM
That's not as much fun as.... uh, what was this thead about again?
HA! Did I stump the master? No come-back? :biggrin5:

GMichael
03-04-2008, 10:58 AM
HA! Did I stump the master? No come-back? :biggrin5:

I was going to say, "...keeping it in." but thought better of it.

Rich-n-Texas
03-04-2008, 11:03 AM
Keeping what in? I don't get it. :out:

GMichael
03-04-2008, 11:39 AM
I slipped out before it blew too!


That's not as much fun as....


No come-back?


..keeping it in.


Keeping what in? I don't get it. :out:

:rolleyes5: :rolleyes5: :rolleyes5:

Rich-n-Texas
03-04-2008, 12:04 PM
Oooooooooohhhhh. Much clearer now thank you. :thumbsup:

GMichael
03-04-2008, 01:59 PM
SCC just got picked up for a second season!