Bright sounding speakers

[Bigmoney]

I have finally locked in my speaker positioning, however everytime I listen to music I get a headache. My system sounds very bright and is actually hard to listen to for more than five minutes. What causes a system to sound so bright. I am using acoustic panels and a rotel amp which is supposed to be laid back. I know my b and w speakers have been called bright. What can I try to reduce this. As of now I am just trying to tolerate the system rather than enjoy it. Need help with this. Thanks.

[Ajani]

Quick Question: Did your system sound bright before you got the Rotel amp (when you were just using the B&W with the Denon)?

[Bigmoney]

Not as bright do you think it's the amp

[Jimmy C]

I have finally locked in my speaker positioning, however everytime I listen to music I get a headache. My system sounds very bright and is actually hard to listen to for more than five minutes. What causes a system to sound so bright. I am using acoustic panels and a rotel amp which is supposed to be laid back. I know my b and w speakers have been called bright. What can I try to reduce this. As of now I am just trying to tolerate the system rather than enjoy it. Need help with this. Thanks.

... sounding too hot is probably the worst offense a stereo can do. And you can only listen for five minutes?!?!? Something is amiss...

Are you listening too loudly? My Studio 60s used to get a bit hard at higher levels, O.K. lower. Seems to have been the nature of the beast, especially if your room accentuates the highs - lotsa wood, glass, etc.

What are you listeng to? There are a LOT of poorly mastered discs that no rig can help.

I don't THINK the Rotel is the culprit. If anything, methinks mine is on the "laid-back" side as well. I might consider it a bit "dry" in retrospect, and maybe that is not helping your cause.

Another idea - at the end of the day you don't really like the B&Ws. I'm not advocating the audiophile "merry-go-round" and dump the speakers, but it is a possibility.

Now that you mentioned it, I have noticed one thing... out of the eight speakers I have used in the last 12 (or so) years, four remain - all fabric-dome tweeters!

Hhmmm...

[Bigmoney]

Jimmy I think your onto something........the b and w tweeters are accurate but can definately come of harsh. You mentioned the affect of a lot of wood in a room causing harshm sound. I have two wood dressers one on each side of my listenin position and a wooden hitch on either side behind me. Could the excess wood furnishings be the culprit?

[Ajani]

Not as bright do you think it's the amp

I've auditioned B&W 800, 700 and CM series extensively on Rotel gear and despite how nice the sound was, I always experienced the same listening fatigue you refer to... My friend bought a pair of CM1s and used with a Yamaha Receiver and I found that in 5 minutes I wanted him to turn down the volume (much as you described)...

I think the amp might be adding to the problem... BUT if you were already experiencing bright sound with the Denon, then the issue is really with the speakers....

The good news though, is that some people (including B&W - I saw it in one of their user manuals) say that people tend to eventually get used to the brightness... so maybe with time (if you can't afford to change the speakers now) you'll get used to the sound.

[Jimmy C]

Jimmy I think your onto something........the b and w tweeters are accurate but can definately come of harsh. You mentioned the affect of a lot of wood in a room causing harshm sound. I have two wood dressers one on each side of my listenin position and a wooden hitch on either side behind me. Could the excess wood furnishings be the culprit?

...the two most important things for good sound are the speaker/room interface, as well as recording quality. That doesn't mean lousy recordings should sound the same as a great one, but it shouldn't be painful.

Also, I'm not saying a room with hardwood floors can't sound great, but an area carpet is usually employed. But, sure... too many reflective surfaces ain't good. Nor is a room too dead.

You said it wasn't as harsh before the amp? Maybe that IS your problem. Or, are you just "cranking up" your new toy :*? In other words, the problem was always there, now you're noticing it more.

B&Ws never struck me as too bright, then again I never owned a pair.

I'm not sure, just a few ideas.

[Bigmoney]

It has become a problem for me to the point I would consider selling the pair if you think I could find better speakers for aroung 600 dollars

[JohnMichael]

When my system sounds too bright it is usually due to several things. The first is the speaker is toed in so the tweeter is firing towards my ears. If that is not possible to change the toe-in invert the speakers so the tweeter is lower than the woofer and this may tame some of the hot sound.

I owned a Rotel RA970BX int. amp and it was a nice smooth sounding amp. When it needed servicing they loaned me a Rotel RA971BX and that was so much brighter and I was worried my 970 would come back sounding like the 971. I ended up not listening to the loaner at all.

I also had some silver coated copper cables that skewed the balance to the highs. Exciting at first but fatiguing after a week. Cables can make a difference.

When I moved into this apartment I became annoyed by all the high frequency hash my system was producing. The trick for me was to remove everything from ground. You can do this by using a cheater plug on grounded plugs or with the PS Audio power cords you can unscrew the ground plug.

[Jimmy C]

It has become a problem for me to the point I would consider selling the pair if you think I could find better speakers for aroung 600 dollars

..."merry-go-round" ;^)

Just ask us anytime you wanna burn up some money :*P

Simply for kicks, try a few sheets of toilet paper draped in front of the tweeter...lol. If that mellows the presentation a bit...

[JohnMichael]

Bigmoney I looked at your equipment list and I do not think it would be your cables. My next question for you is are you running digital out to a dac in the receiver? When I recommend the Marantz CD5001 it was always with the idea of using the internal dac which I thought was quite smooth and pleasant. You might want to try runing analog out to analog in on the Denon to see if the sound is any better. If the Denon does not have an internal dac, never mind.

[SlumpBuster]

I would do three cheaper evaluations first.

Number 1: Visit rivesaudio.com order their Test CD 2 for approx. $20. Then order a Sound Pressure Level Meter from radioshack.com http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103667&cp=&sr=1&origkw=decibel+meter&kw=decibel+meter&parentPage=search
Apparently they are up to $50 now. But they are very useful. If you look around, you might be able to find one for cheaper. The disk and meter will help you establish an in-room response curve, which IMNSHO is the foundation of evaluation.

Number 2: While you are waiting for your test disk and SPL meter to arrive, read the "resources" on the rives website. There is alot of good stuff there.

Number 3: Listen to your system at night, with the lights turned off by candle light. It sounds corny, but every now and then another thread pops up asking "Why does my system sound better at night/with the lights off/candles/humid night/warm night vs. cold night,ect.?" 9 times out of 10, your system is going to sound its best on a Friday or Saturday night with good lighting, comfy slippers and favorite beverage. This will help evaluate whether the system has an objective of subjective problem. i.e. Is the system really bright or is it just you.

A final thought. Alot of people will tell you that you need to listen to jazz or classical recordings to really test a system. That may not help that much if you are not a fan of jazz, but well recorded acoustic jazz can reveal alot about your system. When I want to really show of my system's chops, I don't go for AC/DC, I go for Ramsey Lewis or Ahmad Jamal. But, for such tests you have to be a fan in the first place, IMO.

[PDN]

First, I believe your DM602 S3's are excellent loudspeakers. I have a pair of the lesser DM601 S3's in a 2nd two channel system in my LR which is heavily carpeted with much upholstered furniture. They produce some damn good bass ext depending on the CD being played. I'm using a 20 year old NAD 7240PE 40 watt/ch RMS receiver. So it can't be your DM602's. No way. Question: what is your room size? Is it carpeted, have drapes and uph furniture? Are you using a powered subwoofer? Didn't see that in your equipment list. Maybe you simply don't have enough bass being produced to balance the system out. I agree with Slumpbuster to listen to your system mainly at night. The later the better if you can. Sound is so much better due to cleaner power, no sunlight to distract us, more melatonin in our brains, etc. Rotel equipment is somewhat more polite but it can't be that either.

[Bigmoney]

My room is 11.8 feet wide and fifteen feet long with 8 foot ceilings. A according to cardas audio I have my speakers positioned at .275 the width of the room in from the side walls and .275 the lenth of the room in from the front wall which is 39 inches from the side and 49 from the front wall. I have a carpeted floor anda lot of wood furniture in the room. I have acoustic panels at the first reflection point. I lay on my bed facing the speakers .33 the length of the rom in from the rear wall which is 1.25 the distance bettween my speakers from each speaker. All according to cardas. Directly behind my speakers I have a fairly large window.

[Bigmoney]

By the way. My equipment list was just updated.

[gjpham]

By the way. My equipment list was just updated.
Where is the list, budd? I don't see it.

[Ajani]

From the owner's manual for the B&W 683 & 684 Speakers:


Running-in Period
The performance of the speaker will change subtly during the initial listening period. If the speaker has been stored in a cold environment, the damping compounds and suspension materials of the drive units will take some time to recover their correct mechanical properties. The drive unit suspensions will also loosen up during the first hours of use. The time taken for the speaker to achieve its intended performance will vary depending on previous storage conditions and how it is used. As a guide, allow up to a week for the temperature effects to stabilise and 15 hours of average use for the mechanical parts to attain their intended design characteristics. However, longer run-in periods (as long as a month) have been reported and there is evidence to suggest that this has little to do with the speaker changing and more to do with the listener getting used to the new sound. This is especially so with highly revealing speakers such as these where there may be a
significant increase in the amount of detail compared with what the listener has previously been used to; the sound may at first appear too “up front” and perhaps a little hard. After an extended period of time the sound will seem to mellow, but without losing clarity and detail.

You can download the manual from B&W's website:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=2281&sc=hf

[Jim Clark]

From the owner's manual for the B&W 683 & 684 Speakers:



You can download the manual from B&W's website:

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=2281&sc=hf

That's hilarious! Our speakers aren't bright, just too detailed for ya. Nice spin.

My experience is that every pair of B&W speakers I've ever heard is bright, usually painfully so. My experience won't be the same as anyone else's so if somebody else digs them that's fine by me!

jc

[Ajani]

That's hilarious! Our speakers aren't bright, just too detailed for ya. Nice spin. LOL, I know I found it really funny too... Though their claim of "you'll get used to the sound", may be valid... I remember when I first moved from a mini-system to seperates (All Technics gear with 12 inch woofers), I used to get listening fatigue and have to turn off the system after about half an hour of use... but eventually I got used to the sound and had no issues...


My experience is that every pair of B&W speakers I've ever heard is bright, usually painfully so. My experience won't be the same as anyone else's so if somebody else digs them that's fine by me!

jc

Yep I've had the same experience with B&W speakers, but I also know many people who love the sound and have no idea why I call the speakers bright... so I guess it just comes down to the individual's ears....

[gjpham]

While I was searching for other topics, I found 1 review once stated that the diff of the room's temp also changes the sound. And this is, some what, the reason people sometimes notice their system sound diff from any other time. I would say the individual's mood holds a more important part.
So, my old dad just walked by and saw me reading this thread, he was like "what are you up to now?" after I briefly explained what's happening here, he was like " why not buy a cheap EQ with 10 or 20 bands for about 100 bucks from www.PartsExpress.com and be done with it"....... I'm speechless.
ANyways, have you done anything else diff to your system like swapping cables, reposition your speakers, etc.?

[markw]

Fortunately, I was in a position where I could audition B & W before buying them. As such, I chose to not own them.

While I respect the B & W brand, I have always found them a bit "lean" for my tastes. It's funny, but they seem to use Rotel when they show them at the shows.

Now, had I made my purchasing decision based on what I read about them, I most likely would have bought them and, who knows, I might have been in the same boat as Bigmoney here. Either that, or I would have acclimated to them.

Not liking a well-respected speaker is not a slight on one's personna. It's more of admitting that your tastes differ from other people. Some people like their steaks well done, others like 'em rare and there's the betweens as well.

[PDN]

The B&W Group owns Rotel, Bowers & Wilkins Loudspeakers, and CLASSE Audio. In fact, the new 600 series B&W loudspeakers are manufactured partly in China at a Rotel plant. That's why you'll usually see them sold together or at shows together.

[gjpham]

The B&W Group owns Rotel, Bowers & Wilkins Loudspeakers, and CLASSE Audio. In fact, the new 600 series B&W loudspeakers are manufactured partly in China at a Rotel plant. That's why you'll usually see them sold together or at shows together.

Same thing to Paradigm and Anthem? I see Paradigm brand sold at www.AnthemAV.com

[Bigmoney]

I wasn't as fortunate. I read the reviews on the 602's which said these were the best budget speakers. I assumed with so many people agreeing how great the 602's are I figured they must be, especially with the rotel combo. I hate bright sound because my ears are very sensitive. Does anyone know of warmer sounding speakers. I went to my dealer today and brought home the marantz 5001 which is a much warmer sounding cd player than my marantz 3002 dvd player. What a difference it made. I really didn't believe the different a better source can make until I heard the 5001. My interconnects are one belkin interconnect and an acoustic research cable. Thinking about getting bluejeans. I am currently doing near field listening whoich I am sure can't help. I dont think getting close to thos b and w tweeters is a good idea............unless you have tylenol. What are warmer sounding speakers.............or some suggestions to making my set up warmer.

[gjpham]

How much acoustic panels/foams do you have in the room?

[captjamo]

Havn't had my system very long. The 703's were recommended over the 704's widely recommended for HT setups (good tember that is less bright for higher volume listening). But I wanted good detail at medium levels, and a higher sound stage to match wall mounted TV. (don't really know for sure if this line of reason is evidenced in my setup, however). The place I bought my gear did push hard for me to buy the Pioneer Elite AV receiver over their other brands-Sony,Yamaha, and Denon for the singular reason of a warmer sound. I did so knowing that B & W's are bright due to metal tweeters (love those ringing highs) and Kevlar drivers (crisp and detailed, love'm, OK somewhat bright, especially if you have the new style mid driver technology termed FST with the hard tight surround material). I did experience some fatigue (headache) early on but after 3 hours of listening.
I agree with the comment that your ears will need to get used to your setup--don't under estimate this fact. Lastly, I would also say you need a good sub and enough power to drive your speakers easily.

[Bigmoney]

I have four ( 4 foot tall, 4 inch deep DIY made with mineral wool) acoustic panels. Two at the early reflection poiints and two in the front corner. :out:

[musicman1999]

Are the speakers new? If so you will find that they may need extensive run in time.Also i think that JohnMichael may be on to something, using that Monster digital cable is doing nothing good for your sound, try a good cable in there and you may find a big difference.If you keep the 5001 hook it up using analog cables.

bill

[Ajani]

I wasn't as fortunate. I read the reviews on the 602's which said these were the best budget speakers. I assumed with so many people agreeing how great the 602's are I figured they must be, especially with the rotel combo. I hate bright sound because my ears are very sensitive. Does anyone know of warmer sounding speakers. I went to my dealer today and brought home the marantz 5001 which is a much warmer sounding cd player than my marantz 3002 dvd player. What a difference it made. I really didn't believe the different a better source can make until I heard the 5001. My interconnects are one belkin interconnect and an acoustic research cable. Thinking about getting bluejeans. I am currently doing near field listening whoich I am sure can't help. I dont think getting close to thos b and w tweeters is a good idea............unless you have tylenol. What are warmer sounding speakers.............or some suggestions to making my set up warmer.

If you're looking for warmer speakers, I'd suggest avoiding speakers with either metal tweeters or horns.... You're best off looking for soft dome tweeters... But be careful to audition them first, since you might end up going from a bright sounding setup to one that is very well.... dull...

I found that Mission speakers worked really well with Rotel....

[Bigmoney]

speakers were a demo pair. So not completely new. The 5001 seems to help a lot. Would blue jeans cables help my sound at all over the belkin and ar?

[JohnMichael]

speakers were a demo pair. So not completely new. The 5001 seems to help a lot. Would blue jeans cables help my sound at all over the belkin and ar?



I do not think you have told us but are you using the analog outs of the CD5001 or the digital outs? If you are still using the digital outs please try the audio outs. The audio outs into any audio inputs that does not include the dac.

[Bigmoney]

I am using the audio outs. I have a belkin going from 5001 to denon on bypass with acoustic research to rotel 1080

[blackraven]

Check out the NHT classic 3's. They are warmer than the B&W's.

One thing you can try is a pair of Monster CAble m950i's or m1000i' IC's. They tend to have a slightly warmer sound with a slight roll off on the treble. I found a pair of each on ebay for $30. They retail for over $100. Another option is buying a tube DAC and using your digital out from your CDP. You also might consider upgrading your CDP to the Marantz SA8001 SACDP. It has a very warm sound and will warm up a bright system.

Another thing you could try is a graphic equalizer if you can still find one. I have an old 16 band BSR laying around somewhere.

[Bigmoney]

woold the marant 8001 be a big step up from the 5001 or how about the rotel 1072 cdp.
I have trouble believing the monster interconnects would be warm. Monster tends to be bright. Do you think if the monsters can be found around 30 bucks they would be the better value over blue jeans which would cost about the same for each pair.

[blackraven]

The 8001 is a huge step up from the 5001. I purchased both the 8001 and Cambridge Audio 740c together and compared them. I ended up selling the 8001 because I liked the 740c better. But the 8001 has a very nice warm rich sound with very good bass. Read the review at www.stereophile.com on the 8001. Its a real bargain and you you get the benefit of an excellent SACD player as well. It would be my choice for a sub $900 CDP.

As far as monster cables go. The m1000i and 950i have a slightly warmer sound compared to my Audioquest Corals. High end is not as good.

I think that bluejean cables are as good if not better than the monster cables.

If you have to make a change, I would not count on cables making much of a difference. They can make a difference in sound, but I think most differences are subtle and you may be wasting your money trying to make dramatic changes in sound. How ever it is the cheapest think you can try.

I think the best advice though, would be to sell your speakers and get something that is not too bright. This way, you will know exactly what you will be getting.

One last option, you can mod your marantz 5001 at www.referenceaudiomods.com Talk to Doug Jesse at the East Coast site and tell him your problem and he can recommend mods for that unit to give you a warmer sound.

[O'Shag]

B&W speakers are not bright. If this were the case they would certainly not be the choice of so many studios as reference monitors world wide. I have heard a good many B&W speaker systems and I can say with confidence that the speakers themselves were never the cause of excessive brightness. That stuff you hear people saying about the B&W diamond tweeter for example is total bullshyte, because that diamond tweeter is about the purest and least fatiguing high frequency transucer you'll hear outside of the acapella ion tweeter. I digress though. You must look for the problem further up the chain.

First you might consider if what you perceive as brightness and headache-inducing is indeed a fault in your source or amplification - for example; is your preamp/amp in phase or set at correct polarity? If you have cabling inadvertently crossed over, this will be very confusing to the ear brain and definitely headache-inducing. If your Rotel amp is new, or any of your other components, you may find it worthwhile to try switching left to right etc, as well as experimenting with polarity. The reason I suggest this is that sometimes a particular component is wired in reverse ( a mistake at the factory or by a technician resoldering something). I've run across this scenario twice before and it does happen. You can also run a check using a sound test CD (every audiophile should have one).

If it is not a fault (something clearly wrong operationally), then it may be beneficial to look at each component seperately in terms of its particular sound signature. I've had some cables in my system that can cause excessive brightness when paired with components heavily balanced to the yang side of neutral. If you are using silver cables, you must be careful of this, as silver cables can sound too bright with the wrong gear, and yet can sound marvellous with synergistic components...

[Brett A]

FWIW, I recently spent a fair amount of time and money getting away from the earbleed of my Rotel/B&W combo. I bought a Shanling A3000.
No Rotel=no earbleed.

I spend a lot of time listening on the weekend. Last Saturday, it was 5 1/2 hours. After that much time, I start to think it's a good idea to give my ears a break, but there is no pain or serious fatigue involved. With the Rotel, I'd be cooked after a half hour!

The Shanling has a built-in tube buffer (it's not a hybrid as it is often reported to be), so maybe that's a significant difference.

[O'Shag]

Brett A just provided the answer. Bigmoney, it seems you can probably point at the Rotel, which may work well with other speakers/components, but not in this case.

[Bigmoney]

I am in no position to do anything to my rotel. I saved up for over a year to get it and have had it a not even a month!!! IT WAS A DEMO, therefore it is burnt in.

[Ajani]

Bigmoney, my suggestion is to go the dealer where you bought the rotel or any other rotel dealer and listen to the Rotels with speakers other than B&W... If you find a set that you like, then consider buying those speakers...

I would NOT suggest replacing the Rotel... especially considering the great deal you got on it...

[Jack in Wilmington]

I also don't believe that the Rotel is the culprit. I find dealers that sell B&W often have them running on Rotel equipment. I have what most people would consider bright speakers (Paradigm Monitor 9's) and I added a two channel amp, a new Rotel CDP 1072 source and Tara Labs speaker cables. These changes have made the speakers liveable. I still have to watch what I listen to and at what volumn.

[Brett A]

I am in no position to do anything to my rotel. I saved up for over a year to get it and have had it a not even a month!!! IT WAS A DEMO, therefore it is burnt in.

The Rotel I replaced was an integrated. My problem could have been with the pre section.

[blackraven]

I also find B&W's on the brighter side and had a pair of 602's as my rear speakers till I returned them because I didnt feel that I needed the benefit of rear speakers. I liked them but they did seem a little on the bright side but I did not find them unsetteling or harsh. I think that if you have the right CDP you would like them better.

If your considering replacing your speakers, really give the NHT classic 3's a look. Read the review at www.stereophile.com

[gjpham]

I am in no position to do anything to my rotel. I saved up for over a year to get it and have had it a not even a month!!! IT WAS A DEMO, therefore it is burnt in.
1/ BigMoney, what do your local sale men say/suggest about this brightness matter?
2/ Ask 1 of your audiophile buddy come over for a tea. Perhaps, ask him to bring his pair of speakers over for comparasion.

[Bigmoney]

I have an spl meter and am going to buy the rives audio calibrating cd. Should it be my goal to have the flattest frequency response across the spectrum? I have heard some claim otherwise?

[Bigmoney]

Also can someone reccommend a guide or something to instruct me or teach me how to calibrate my system with the rivest teest cd and an spl meter.

[basite]

FWIW, I recently spent a fair amount of time and money getting away from the earbleed of my Rotel/B&W combo. I bought a Shanling A3000.
No Rotel=no earbleed.

I spend a lot of time listening on the weekend. Last Saturday, it was 5 1/2 hours. After that much time, I start to think it's a good idea to give my ears a break, but there is no pain or serious fatigue involved. With the Rotel, I'd be cooked after a half hour!

The Shanling has a built-in tube buffer (it's not a hybrid as it is often reported to be), so maybe that's a significant difference.


dad has a rotel integrated on his B&W 604 S3's...


the sound is slightly fatiguing to me to, no wait, 'boring' is a more correct word...

not bad, just not really my taste...

with my Mcintosh/Thiel setup I can easily listen for very long periods, I often find myself saying 'just one more track/album', even when it's half past 2 at night...
so no fatigue in my current system, and dad's setup still sounds boring to me :D


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[topspeed]

Bigmoney, my suggestion is to go the dealer where you bought the rotel or any other rotel dealer and listen to the Rotels with speakers other than B&W... If you find a set that you like, then consider buying those speakers...

I would NOT suggest replacing the Rotel... especially considering the great deal you got on it...
I'm unclear how the amount someone pays for a piece of equipment has anything to do with value received. If I paid $2500 for a $10K Tata, should I keep it because I got a smokin' deal? It's still a freakin' Tata!

Certainly, Rotel is no Tata, however if the speakers didn't cause fatigue before the Rotel and they do with the Rotel, the answer seems rather obvious to me. While I agree Rotel's are more neutral than cold, there is such a thing as a bad sample. Perhaps the amp isn't performing to spec? It was a demo after all and Lord only knows what kind of abuse it's endured.

To the OP: Calibration discs come with instructions. Don't worry, it's not very difficult and most of us find the process enjoyable (at least I did :) ). If your rig is completely out of whack, the difference can be pleasantly startling. Good luck and have fun with it!

[johnny p]

odd.... I was told B&W and Rotel are essentially the same company...... or same share-holders, or something to that matter, and Rotels were supposed to be ideal for B&Ws.

[Brett A]

odd.... I was told B&W and Rotel are essentially the same company...... or same share-holders, or something to that matter, and Rotels were supposed to be ideal for B&Ws.
They are owned by the same company.
I've heard they have good symmetry too. I have to assume it's a matter of taste.
Subjectively speaking, I found my Rotel integrated to be forward and analytical. A bit "in your face" Some folks may dig that kind of thing. But it didn't suit me. It made very accurate sound but I wanted something that produced music.

My experience was only with one piece of Rotel gear, and it was one of their more modest rigs, an RA 1060.

[Ajani]

I'm unclear how the amount someone pays for a piece of equipment has anything to do with value received. If I paid $2500 for a $10K Tata, should I keep it because I got a smokin' deal? It's still a freakin' Tata!

Certainly, Rotel is no Tata, however if the speakers didn't cause fatigue before the Rotel and they do with the Rotel, the answer seems rather obvious to me. While I agree Rotel's are more neutral than cold, there is such a thing as a bad sample. Perhaps the amp isn't performing to spec? It was a demo after all and Lord only knows what kind of abuse it's endured.

To the OP: Calibration discs come with instructions. Don't worry, it's not very difficult and most of us find the process enjoyable (at least I did :) ). If your rig is completely out of whack, the difference can be pleasantly startling. Good luck and have fun with it!

The statement you made (that I bolded) answers your question... if you re-read this thread, you'll see that the 1st question I asked was whether he had that problem before the Rotel... he said yes but it wasn't quite as bad... so since his setup was bright with both the Denon and the Rotel, I suggested he keep the Rotel (as it is a good brand and not a 'Tata' - whatever a tata is.. and he got a great deal )....

[SlumpBuster]

Here's my speculation. Its not the Rotel, its not the Speakers and its not the source. That is assuming that they are not defective. It is most likely the room. The Rives disc and SPL will reveal the startling room peaks and nulls that most systems have. I know my system has some crazy peaks and nulls. But that is the in room response. In my experience, "bright" means that their may be some upper frequency response peaks. It could also be described as some "sizzle." Fatigue is something different. Fatigue is going to come from a peak in the 1000 hz to 5000 hz range. That would be the range of the sound of a baby crying. Hence it hurts to listen to. The equipment all should have left the factory with relatively flat frequency response, so I don't think there is any inherent problem. The Rives disc will help reveal that.

[GMichael]

Are your floors carpetted, hard wood or something else?

[topspeed]

the 1st question I asked was whether he had that problem before the Rotel... he said yes but it wasn't quite as bad... Thus, it became worse after inserting the Rotel. This means one of two things:
1) The Rotel is creating the sizzle
2) The transparency of the Rotel is exacerbating a problem with the source thereby creating a synergy problem


I suggested he keep the Rotel (as it is a good brand and not a 'Tata' - whatever a tata is.. and he got a great deal ).... In other words, B&W is the bad brand here, correct? Is this due to the myth that any tweeter that is not a soft dome has a tendency to sound hard? Material choice has absolutely nothing to do with sound quality. The design parameters and preferences of the engineer do. There are laid back metal tweeters just as there are hard sounding soft domes. Take your Mission example; I'm listening to a pair of 780A's as I type this and they are the most aggressive speaker I own despite their soft dome tweeters. There is a lot more to sound quality than preconceived notions.

This is all moot anyway...Slumpy has the right answer.

BTW, Tata is a POS Indian automobile manufacturer who, unfortunately, just bought Jaguar/Land Rover

[Ajani]

Thus, it became worse after inserting the Rotel. This means one of two things:
1) The Rotel is creating the sizzle
2) The transparency of the Rotel is exacerbating a problem with the source thereby creating a synergy problem

OR 3) The B&W's are bright....


In other words, B&W is the bad brand here, correct? Is this due to the myth that any tweeter that is not a soft dome has a tendency to sound hard? Material choice has absolutely nothing to do with sound quality. The design parameters and preferences of the engineer do. There are laid back metal tweeters just as there are hard sounding soft domes. Take your Mission example; I'm listening to a pair of 780A's as I type this and they are the most aggressive speaker I own despite their soft dome tweeters. There is a lot more to sound quality than preconceived notions.

I don't think a multi-award winning brand such as B&W can be a 'bad brand'.... It's a great brand but it is not the right brand for everyone..... My favourite brand (Monitor Audio) uses Metal Dome Tweeters and is often accused of being bright.... Unlike some B&W fans, I don't take offense if my brand is called bright/aggressive.... It is what it is.... and with the right equipment it sounds magical to me.... The strange part to me, is to see so many people jump to defend B&W, when even professional reviews that praise the speakers refer to them as being bright or leaning towards bright... and suggest careful equipment partnering to get the best from them... same for Monitor Audio....

The reason I suggested Mission is because they are also aggressive like B&W, but they managed to do so without listening fatigue (for me anyway) with the samp amp and CD player that the OP has...


This is all moot anyway...Slumpy has the right answer.

Quite possibly....


BTW, Tata is a POS Indian automobile manufacturer who, unfortunately, just bought Jaguar/Land Rover

That sucks....

[blackraven]

Big Money, you should see if you can take a Marantz SA8001 SACDP home and audition it to see if it makes a difference. I'm betting it will make a huge difference. My good friend has Triangle Floor Stander speakers which are light on bass and heavy on mid range and treble, very fatiguing as far as I was concerned. He was using a modded Marantz 5001 CDP and upgraded to the SA8001. It really warmed up the sound and took away the fatigue. It took away some of the glare and gave it a richer bass and warmer sound. His speakers sound awesome now.

[Bigmoney]

Everyone's advice is plausible. Tell me if I am wrong, but I think the first thing I should do is try the rives cd. This way if it's a room problem I just saved hundreds of dollars and a ton of time auditioning equipment. If the latter does not solve my issue, I will try keeping the rotel and experimenting with cdps such as the 8001. Agaun, correct me if this should not be the order in evaluating my system, I will then look at the b and w's. While reading everyone's opinion on my speakers (b and w dm 602) I take it you all believe they are great speakers for the money aside from there forwardness, correct? And that most likely I can tame the fatigue without replacing the speakers.

[blackraven]

Its worth a try, but ultimately I think your will have to do one of 3 things, replace your speakers, CDP or amp. Room treatments and positioning may help some, but glare from CDP, speakers or amp is usually fixed be replacing the offending piece of equipment or some other part of the system to compensate for the high frequency's that are so irritating.

[Ajani]

Everyone's advice is plausible. Tell me if I am wrong, but I think the first thing I should do is try the rives cd. This way if it's a room problem I just saved hundreds of dollars and a ton of time auditioning equipment. If the latter does not solve my issue, I will try keeping the rotel and experimenting with cdps such as the 8001. Agaun, correct me if this should not be the order in evaluating my system, I will then look at the b and w's. While reading everyone's opinion on my speakers (b and w dm 602) I take it you all believe they are great speakers for the money aside from there forwardness, correct? And that most likely I can tame the fatigue without replacing the speakers.

That sounds like a good plan...

worse case scenario: you get the cd and still have to buy new Speakers/CD Player/Amp..... at least you can still use the CD to optimize your new setup... so you won't lose out...

best case: The CD saves you hundreds on upgrades...

And yes, B&W are great speakers apart from the forwardness....

[markw]

Sometimes, what "everyone" says is a great speaker simply doesn't fit in with what you want from a speaker. That's why they have so many different ones. Personal preference rules more in this choice than anywhere else in this hobby.


While reading everyone's opinion on my speakers (b and w dm 602) I take it you all believe they are great speakers for the money aside from there forwardness, correct?Great speakers, yes, but not for everyone. You either like 'em and can live with what they do, both right or wrong, or you can't and move on.

Sounds like my old '64 Jaguar 3.8. It was a great car and the ladies loved it but it spent more time in the shop than on hte road. After a while I redefined my definition of a great car.

No harm in having tastes that differ from others but trying to force their likes on yourself because others like them may be expensive, unsuccessful and, ultimately, lead to lingering dissatisfaction.


And that most likely I can tame the fatigue without replacing the speakers.Maybe, maybe not. Remember, their sound is the result of intentional design goals. You may harm other parts of their sound you actually like.

Speaking of which, I don't see you praising anything about their performance in any other areas. You might want to think about what it is that makes you want to change everything else in order to fit these particular speakers into your life.

But remember, it's not just you that finds them a bit forward. Maybe there's something to that, eh?

[Bigmoney]

Problem is, I bought my speakers and rotel not very long ago, under two months. This is my first set up I can begin to consider mid-fi. I am 18 years old and still in highschool so I haven't really defined my tastes, all I know is that I must have sensitive ears because the highs really heart em'. I don't have much money, I am a waiter and saved up very long to create a good stereo system because I truly have a love for music. I am in no way financially able to spend money at will, or waste money at all. Therefore, I cannot afford to let the long term investment I made on these speakers and amp to go to waste. I figure if I was to sell the speakers and amp and replace them I would probabably lose 250 dollars or so in the process as I bought the speakers with the stands and amp for a total of 1100 before tax. Hopefully, later on in life I'll have the green to toss around a little more, but right now it's not the case. It's unfortunate that you all don't seem to believe the rives cd will solve my issue. However, I am sure, that you all have been in my position before in your life, that is money being tight. I figured those of you that have may be able to lend some advice from first hand experience. I haven't heard any other high end speakers other than b and w because that is all my dealer sells as far a speakers are concerned. He says " they are the best speakers that can be had at all price points" and that is the reason they only carry b and w.

[markw]

Old proverb: "When you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail."

You bought them from him less than two months ago and he won't let you exchange or return them?

A word of advice, guy. That dealer is no friend of yours. Flee, flee as quickly as you can.

[Bigmoney]

I haven't tried to return them. I figured the answer would be "no". Do you think that if I returned the speakers and got 550 bucks back I could find speakers used or new under 750 that would suit me better?

[markw]

I haven't tried to return them. I figured the answer would be "no". Do you think that if I returned the speakers and got 550 bucks back I could find speakers used or new under 750 that would suit me better?IMNSHO, easily.

but first you need to know what you want. So far,you know what you don't want.

What else have you listened to, and don't get too hung up on that "hi-end" label. It can get you into trouble.

hint... Listen to everything you can.

If you don't mind mail order, check out http://www.audioadvisor.com. Good service and they have a liberal exchange policy. Plus, on orders over $200 there's no shipping charge.

[Brett A]

I haven't tried to return them. I figured the answer would be "no". Do you think that if I returned the speakers and got 550 bucks back I could find speakers used or new under 750 that would suit me better?
No harm in asking. My regular shop has a 30-day money back and a 90 full exchange policy.
The fact that he sells only B&W's seems a bit weird to me.

[Bigmoney]

Yeah they have three large listening rooms and not a small store filled with nothing but b and w. If it is thirty day return which I am just outside of would you return the speakers still? Do you think there are better b and w speakers for me?

[markw]

Yeah they have three large listening rooms and not a small store filled with nothing but b and w. If it is thirty day return which I am just outside of would you return the speakers still?I'd give it a shot. Give him the same spiel you gave us :high schookl student, working, new to this whole hi-fi thing. sometimes salespeople do have a little compassion.

If they don't, I'd never set foot in there again. I think they took advantage of you.


Do you think there are better b and w speakers for me?Speaker manufactures generally design their lineup to have a characteristic "house" sound. You've just had a taste of theirs.

I'd take the money and run.

[Brett A]

It could be helpful before you really decide on what action to take, or if you even need to take any action, to get away from these posts, maybe even spend some time away from the equipment.

I find it necessary to occasionally step away from all the stimulation and obsession to get a fresh, rested perspective on things.

Listening fatigue can be cumulative. I think it has a sister too: thinking fatigue. I bet a few people here other than myself have gone from long listening sessions with their comfy non-fatiguing systems out to a restaurant or busy city street and found themselves sensitive and irritable. Sometime the organism (that'd be us) need a break from all the input.


:7::8: :7::8: :7::8: :7::8: :7: :cryin:

[Feanor]

Not as bright do you think it's the amp

Yes, it certainly could be the amp. Let me ask: do all your recordings sound bright, or do some sound OK?

I have found that a certain portion of my recordings were quite bright and harsh which I attibuted to bad recording practice. However when I improved my amp many of these bright recordings went from being unlistenably bright & harsh to just a little bright but clean and airy. Many recordings "improved" as I progress from Phase Linear 400 => NAD C270 => Bel Canto eVo => Monarchy SM-70 Pro. Going to a tube preamp further improved things.

Of course there are other culprits for bright/harsh sound apart from speakers:

Wall behind refections in case of dipole speakers
Relections from the side wall or ceiling
CD player or DAC
Preamp
RFI, (radio frequency interference, mostly affecting digital components)
Cables and interconnects

[Feanor]

.... I haven't heard any other high end speakers other than b and w because that is all my dealer sells as far a speakers are concerned. He says " they are the best speakers that can be had at all price points" and that is the reason they only carry b and w.

Your dealer is either (1) just an idiot, or (2) self-serving, more likely, or (3) both, most likely. See my comments under the Circuit City thread. :mad:

[basite]

Your dealer is either (1) just an idiot, or (2) self-serving, more likely, or (3) both, most likely. See my comments under the Circuit City thread. :mad:


I completely agree.

B&W is a brand like any other decent brand, only B&W happens to be slightly more famous...

and that B&W is the best speaker you can get at that price point is your dealer's opinion. Personally, I find Monitor audio giving much more for their money as B&W, certainly here in Europe.

and your dealer should start listening to other brands too, something really exotic, like avalon, or Wilson, or verity audio, or something like those...
heck, he should even listen to Thiel!

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

BM, it seems you still have several options....

1) You could try changing speakers, amp or cd player... (of those three, I'd suggest the speakers - you have many good alternatives to B&W in the $600 or less price range)..

2) You could try selling the Denon and buying a preamp (maybe a tubed one) to tame the current setup....

3) You could get the test cd and try to optimize the room with additional treatments to tame the brightness...

4) Finally, you could listen to your music for short periods at lower volumes untill you adjust to the brightness....

[Bigmoney]

I would be willing to spend up to 800 for the speakers, anyone have goo success with audiogon. By the way, feanor, some recordings are much less bright than others.

[Ajani]

Many people swear by audiogon... I've never tried it though....

Also, are you looking for bookshelves or floorstanders?

[Brett A]

I would be willing to spend up to 800 for the speakers, anyone have goo success with audiogon. By the way, feanor, some recordings are much less bright than others.
With $800, you have more options than you can process! Alot of hi end shops let you take pieces home and try them for a few days. Do you have any other options near you besides the B&W only guy?

[markw]

I would be willing to spend up to 800 for the speakers, anyone have goo success with audiogon.At this stage, you might be better off dealing with business' that allow you to return the product if it's not what you hoped it would be.


IBy the way, feanor, some recordings are much less bright than others.That's to be expected. Not all recordings are created equal.

[Bigmoney]

No that's the problem he is the only hifi shop around. I would prefer floorstanders honestly. Can I get a good warmer ounding pair for under my price point while keeping in mind my amp which is the rotel 1080.

[markw]

No that's the problem he is the only hifi shop around. I would prefer floorstanders honestly. Can I get a good warmer ounding pair for under my price point while keeping in mind my amp which is the rotel 1080.Re-read post 64, particularly the last line. My post above was in response to your query about audiogon.

[Ajani]

Re-read post 64, particularly the last line. My post above was in response to your query about audiogon.

I'll 2nd that... using online stores with good return policies are probably the way to go, since you have only one local dealer...

try www.audioadviser.com or www.musicdirect.com

[Brett A]

One thing that might make a subtle difference in the mean time is to run your B&W's with the grilles on (if you are not already). I find they actually make a small but important difference to the highs in my 683's.

[Bigmoney]

does anyone know of any warmer sounding floorstanding speakers new for under 700 that you really like. If not, can anyone reccommend a used floorstander I should be able to get inth that range.

[blackraven]

Big Money, audition the Marantz SA8001 CDP before you switch speakers. I think you will be pleased with the sound. It will give you better sound compared to the 5001 and I'm betting that it will solve your problem. Purchase it from a mail order company with a good return policy.

Check out these speakers www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/407ape/

[topspeed]

Your dealer is a self-serving ass. Anyone that makes the statement that Brand X is the best in every price range is most certainly not looking out for the consumer's best interest. What a tool.

I agree that you should step away from the computer for awhile and get back to listening. Your inquiries about audiogon and floorstanders under $800 (when your original budget was $600) are tell-tale signs of upgradeitis, a disease more insipid than herpes simplex 10. Audiogon won't help because you'll be purchasing a speaker you've never heard, therefore falling into the same trap of relying on other people's opinions instead of your own. Online dealers such as audioadvisor are an option, and indeed I can vouch for their service as I've bought a few things from them, but you're still chasing the Holy Grail without a map. You need to figure out what is wrong before you can discover what is right.

Play with your rig some more. Calibrate it, tweak it, pet it, squeez it, sing lullaby's to it...whatever tickles your fancy. If you still find the sound unsatisfactory, take a few road trips and start auditioning gear. A lot of it. Stop reading and start forming your own opinions through experience. Every person hears differently. Every person has different tastes. The quest for good sound is not a sprint, it's a marathon.

Enjoy the journey.

[pixelthis]

Where were your speakers made? China or England?
I have had a pair of 602s2's forever and love em, a friend had them awhile and loved them too (took a lot to get them back).
I am a B&W guy, and not offened that you find them "bright", just puzzled.
Mine were a bit harsh at first, but now are warm and very smooth and accurate.
One lost its bass once but that was the jumpers in the back, one came loose.
B&W are very accurate, and unforgiving of bad recordings, and not the best for rock
and rap.
They are best for jazz, classical, etc

[Bigmoney]

Has anyone heard the vandersteend 2ce speaker or listened to vandersteen speakers at all. I posted my b and w's on audiogon and someone is looking to trrade them to me for the 602's because they movede into a smaller house. I think they want a little extra money. I usually listen to music with a little more punch like rock and roll. Any comments on these speakers?

[topspeed]

I've said this many times and it's still true: Few brands foster more polarized opinions than Vandersteen. Vandy's are a true "love 'em" or "hate 'em" brand. There is no in-between. I fall into the latter, even though I live 20 miles from the factory and have talked to Richard personally. Nice guy, somewhat eccentric, can be impossibly moody. That said, his speakers have legions of fans so clearly he's doing something right.

To me, Vandy's represent the pinnacle of "laid back." They have a completely different sound from the B&W's, which based on your experience might be good thing. You will never, ever find them fatiguing. My problem with them is I never, ever found them engaging either. I listen to a lot of jazz, swing, and rock and their laid back nature just couldn't capture the energy of rock or the pace of swing and jazz. Of course, YMMV so make sure you listen to them with music you know and like before you buy.

A couple of speakers you might consider, particularly since you've resigned to selling your B&W's, are the Von Schweikert VR1 and Usher X708. These are two highly dynamic monitors that play faster and deeper than any monitor has a right to. They pop up on audiogon now and again, but they go fast so keep your eyes open. I did see an Usher V 604 floorstander for $900obo, and that could be a good speaker for you. I've never heard that model, but it will likely carry the Usher house sound which is less "hi fi" and more musical. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, listen to a lot of speakers and you'll understand.

Hope this helps.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

. Directly behind my speakers I have a fairly large window.

Bam! There is your problem. Windows create louder reflections that walls do. A curtain over that window will bring some of the reflections under control, add some asorption, which will tampered the brightness down a shade. You should not have alot of bare walls or windows with no curtains near your speakers. The environment around the speakers should have acoustical control to deal with early reflections.

[captjamo]

Seriously, your speakers are the best around for the money. Ease up the volume slowly to that concert level we all like because it renders detail which is exciting. You need enough power to provide a sound pressure level that you are seeking without distorting. I auditioned Rotel and B & W together extensively and I noticed speaker overload (sound grainy and shrill, even gritty especially vocals) sooner than I expected when driving the Rotel a bit hard. I know the Rotel's have good dynamic power demonstrated on bench testing but I really feel they are dry and bright especially on vocals. I have a pioneer receiver and I am doing OK regarding fatigue and B & W listening. I have 130watts per speaker rated power and I think it helps to have enough power to drive speakers cleanly. That Kevlar is going to reveal distortion very easily. It is very sensitive material that needs to limber up over time. Back to break in again. I divert. Back to warm clean power: have you considered any of Outlaw Audio's products. High quality products that review very well.
Warm power for a very good price and maybe the best sub and bookshelf speakers around today.

[Bigmoney]

What is your opinion about lexicon pre amps. I brought a cp 3 preamp from the nineties which was used home today from my dealers. It was over three thousand new. I can get it for 200. It really, surprisingly brought my speakers alive. I feel the sound is warmer and more bearable with this pre amp. What kind of sound is lexicon known for?

[blackraven]

Sounds like you may have solved your problem with that preamp.

If you still want to replace your speakers, consider the Magnepan MMG's for $550. You may even be able to get them cheaper through a discount code from this web site.
The MMG's IMO sound better than the B&W's. I think magnepan has a no risk guarentee and they have a good trade in policy if you decide to upgrade to one of their larger models.
www.magnepan.com They would sound excellent with that amp/preamp combo.

[basite]

Where were your speakers made? China or England?

what's your point? I've heard both the 600 S3 line as well as the new 600 line (s4), the new line is made in china, I liked the new line much more than the S3 line.


B&W are very accurate, and unforgiving of bad recordings

that's weird, because I find them really forgiving compared to other speakers, especially compared to my thiels, or to other high end speakers.
B&W makes commercial speakers, and especially their 600 line is built for a wide public. A lot of people make their first venture in to high end with B&W, so they voice their speakers so they sound decent with almost every genre, wether it is well recorded or not.

I agree that classical stands out here, but they do all genres 'well'.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Bigmoney]

What does everyone think of the lexicon cp3 preamp?

[markw]

What does everyone think of the lexicon cp3 preamp?It's a fine brand that turns out a fine product but how it sounds to you is the more imporatnt issue.

[aevans]

what type of music, anything with a lot of high hat/cymbal is going to fatige and what format.. if you are listening to mp3's I can hear lots of sizzle in the highs (I still have young ears) you may want to buy the cd instead.

Also where are you located.. there may be a member of the forums that can let you stop by and listen to a few tracks to get some ideas of what you like.

if you want to test quickly if it's the room, you can cover your wood funiture with blankets to see if that helps.. also an old diy improvement for sizzle is to put a ring of foam around the dome tweeter.

[aevans]

after rereading a few of these posts, your dad may be right about the eq...
I've heard some good things about this unit, and I'll be picking one up later this month to try out.. Behringer DEQ2496 uses a mic to determine the actual in room response/phase and allows you to make changes to it in the digital relm (digital in/out)

sounds like the holy grail to me.. we will see if it is everything that they say.