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Smokey
02-20-2008, 05:06 PM
Have both Bestbuy and Circuitcity within mile of where I work and anytime I pass by both stores, BB parking lot is full of activity while CC parking lot seem like a ghost town. And it seem to be national trend as their profits have fallen.

So was wondering since business is so bad for Circuitcity, do they have a plan to stay afloat?

Since they got bad publicity last year for firing their best employees for cheaper labor, it seems they been going down the hill ever since.

http://www.thegoldsteingroup.com/properties/images/tgg_bricknj_circuitcity_1.gif

blackraven
02-20-2008, 05:31 PM
Same here in my town. Internet business is killing them.

Smokey
02-20-2008, 06:42 PM
Internet business is killing them.

Not to mention Walmart is sitting one block away :)

Maybe CC should use the same strategy as Target chain stores use when they had fierce competition with Walmart, and move to higher end market. It seem to be working for Target stores.

bobsticks
02-20-2008, 06:53 PM
I am on a personal boycott of CC for customer service reasons...and I'm not "that guy".

filecat13
02-20-2008, 07:35 PM
There's no compelling reason to go into Circuit City. The last few times I went--over a year ago--I walked around a bit and couldn't find a single thing that interested me. It used to be I could at least find something on sale that I might be half interested in, but not any more. Overpriced, limited-selection, boring merchandise sold by ignorant, unprofessional salespeople is not attractive to me. Plus, I got really tired of the three or four person knots of unkempt employees too busy talking about "OH MY GAWD...!! pointless juvenile experiences to bother to help me when I actually wanted help.

While I'm no more in love with Best Buy than CC, usually I can actually kill some time there looking at some CDs or DVDs, or maybe checking out a refrigerator or something. I have a Best Buy gift card that an employee gave me two Xmases ago that I still haven't used, so it's not like Best Buy is filling me with desire, but at least I don't get the feeling that I HAVE TO GET OUT, which is how I feel after five or six minutes in Circuit City.

JSE
02-20-2008, 08:25 PM
Circuit City sucks. The layout sucks, the service sucks, their service sucks, and oh did I mentioned their service sucks, etc.

It's such a hassle to buy anything there. You have to track someone down and make them take money from you and then you have to go harrass another person to actually go get your purchase from the back. At least with best buy, you find an item, you pick it up and take it to one of many checkout counters. And get this, there is actually someone at the counter waiting to take your money! I know, revolutionary. :shocked:

Besy Buys are cleaner, better stocked generallly easier to pruchase from. I always feel dirty going into a CC. They just seem like an 80's throwback and the grey and burgundy walls just scream excitement!

The bottom line is I can almost always find what I need at Best Buy. It's about a 50/50 chance at CC.

RIP CC.

jamison
02-21-2008, 12:15 AM
Circuit City does suck... Best Buy is better but not by much.
after researching HDTV's I decided to go to Best Buy to purchase a Sony bravia XBR4 Tv and an 80 GB PS3 with motorstorm. First off the salesperson didnt even seem interested that I was forking out nearly 4 grand of my hard earned dough for this stuff. then they couldnt find the tv in stock... 20 min goes by and no one has an answer... I go to leave the security guy at the door asks me if i found what i was looking for... I said im looking for decent service and your company sucks at it.
so i go to circuit city across the street. in contrast to best buys parking lot circuit citys parking lot is empty.
I find the same TV and the 80GB ps3 for pretty much the same price give or take. same thing as other posters 3 or 4 people sitting around in a huddle talking about the football game and not waiting on me. 20 min later I asked for the manager... I ask him why his employees were more concerned about a football game than my spending 4 grand. he says ill take care of it... 15 min later im still sitting there with no one helping me.. I go home all peed off. ended up i bought them both on amazon.com and saved nearly $200.00 I had both items in less than a week and free shipping to boot. that was the first time ive been in a circuit city in a year... ive been in best buy probably ten times in the last year and never bought anything due to bad service.. never again.

JSE
02-21-2008, 06:39 AM
Circuit City does suck... Best Buy is better but not by much.
after researching HDTV's I decided to go to Best Buy to purchase a Sony bravia XBR4 Tv and an 80 GB PS3 with motorstorm. First off the salesperson didnt even seem interested that I was forking out nearly 4 grand of my hard earned dough for this stuff. then they couldnt find the tv in stock... 20 min goes by and no one has an answer... I go to leave the security guy at the door asks me if i found what i was looking for... I said im looking for decent service and your company sucks at it.
so i go to circuit city across the street. in contrast to best buys parking lot circuit citys parking lot is empty.
I find the same TV and the 80GB ps3 for pretty much the same price give or take. same thing as other posters 3 or 4 people sitting around in a huddle talking about the football game and not waiting on me. 20 min later I asked for the manager... I ask him why his employees were more concerned about a football game than my spending 4 grand. he says ill take care of it... 15 min later im still sitting there with no one helping me.. I go home all peed off. ended up i bought them both on amazon.com and saved nearly $200.00 I had both items in less than a week and free shipping to boot. that was the first time ive been in a circuit city in a year... ive been in best buy probably ten times in the last year and never bought anything due to bad service.. never again.

I tried buying my Samsung 52" LCD at Circuit City and ended up buying through Amazon. Same story as yours, saved several hundred dollars and had it in my house in less than a week.

Feanor
02-21-2008, 06:47 AM
Have both Bestbuy and Circuitcity within mile of where I work and anytime I pass by both stores, BB parking lot is full of activity while CC parking lot seem like a ghost town. And it seem to be national trend as their profits have fallen.

So was wondering since business is so bad for Circuitcity, do they have a plan to stay afloat?

Since they got bad publicity last year for firing their best employees for cheaper labor, it seems they been going down the hill ever since.



Actually CC isn't in Canada in it's state-side format. CC owns "Source One" here; Source One shops used to run here under the Radio Shack name but haven't be owned by the parent Radio Shack for decades. Radio Shack wanted put it's license fee away up for use of it's name and CC told them to bugger off. Nowadays Source One still carries some Radio Shack stuff but much less than previously. Their prices are too high; Source Ones are mainly located in malls and their main strategy is to attract passers by with gimicky items.

BestBuy and it formerly Canadian-own subsidiary Future Shop are active in Canada in approx. the U.S. format. Accordingly, both are a principal source of rudeness and misinformation for Canadian consumers

Mr Peabody
02-21-2008, 07:30 AM
I can't believe you guys buy electronics from Amazon :) I went into CC last summer on a Saturday because they had the Samsung BD-P1200 in stock and I wanted it then so I could play with it. I know Amazon had it on special at about $457.00. I went in stood around looking at the unit for a long time and looked at other BR players, the price of the BD-P1200 at CC was $599.00, I even switched everything around so I could see a picture, even though I was over there looking at the machines, messing with their stuff, no one ever came to help. Finally I practically tackle some guy crossing the sales floor and tell him Amazon's price and what would they do on their price, he says, "management don't allow us to match web prices". I would have been willing to even pay a bit more to get the unit that day but they wouldn't even try. So guess what, I had to be patient and bought the unit from Amazon.

BB in my area has improved over the last couple years, at least now when I go into the store some one always asks if they can help me find something. I don't buy much from them, usually it's a computer part or something. Neither are even a consideration if I can find the item some where else. There's a Radio Shack near by who has a guy that works there who is always really nice and trys to help, so I try to give him business when I can. I try to find accessories there and last year I bought a portable DVD player for my daughter there.

Actually, I have a bit of a grudge against BB over a stupid extended warranty. I paid like $3.00 for an extended warranty on a CD walkman. It was for a child, so I say what the heck. The thing breaks, when I take it in they ask me, "do you have the headphones?". I'm like no one said when I bought this to keep the headphones, do you know how much money I spent on headphones so far for this kid, just give me the player an keep the headphones. "Well we can't do that, we no longer have the EXACT model". Actually this was around the time I was looking for a BR player and they were the only ones who had the Sony S300 in stock, so over a $25.00 walkman they lost a possible $499.00 sale and any potential other sales from me. I told the manager if they can't even bend to honor a warranty on a $25.00 item how and the world would they expect anyone to trust them on a larger ticket item. I think this is an example of bad management for the text books.

You'd think if a large corporation was paying to keep the doors open at these places some one would want to make it worth while.

Woochifer
02-21-2008, 10:13 AM
I sometimes wonder the same thing, but compared to BB, CC does not need nearly as much customer volume to support their stores. On average, CC stores are about 1/4 the size of a typical BB, though on a per square foot basis, CC generates about half of what BB sells per square foot. BB is definitely cleaning CC's clock, but CC's advantage with smaller store sizes is that they can situate themselves into smaller markets. BB has to be more selective about where they locate their stores due to their large footprint.

I think CC has a somewhat tenuous niche between the ubiquitous Radio Shack and the more formidable Best Buy. But, they do somewhat differentiate themselves by carrying some lines that Best Buy does not. I don't shop that often at CC, but I have gone there to find specific items that BB and other stores do not stock.

I'm just more in the habit of going to BB. They have more DVD exclusives (the steelbook cases on some new releases that get sent only to BB stores are really cool), and like JSE mentioned, the stores are typically cleaner and better organized. CC's newer locations have done away with that drab 80s-vintage plum and chrome look, and definitely make more of an effort to be inviting. But, it seems that BB employees are generally better trained to at least be courteous if not necessarily knowledgeable.

Mr Peabody
02-21-2008, 10:43 AM
Good point CC does carry a few better lines in my opinion, like Onkyo and HK. They have Polk which I would prefer over BB's Klipsch and Bose. However, BB has turned the table in markets where they have the Magnolia hook up.

I didn't realize BB had exclusives but compared to Amazon, BB's prices are embarrassingly high on movies, especially Blu-ray.

oaqm
02-21-2008, 10:56 AM
edited for my own amazing display of stupidity. have a nice day.

L.J.
02-21-2008, 11:38 AM
Good point CC does carry a few better lines in my opinion, like Onkyo and HK. They have Polk which I would prefer over BB's Klipsch and Bose. However, BB has turned the table in markets where they have the Magnolia hook up.

I didn't realize BB had exclusives but compared to Amazon, BB's prices are embarrassingly high on movies, especially Blu-ray.

BB has had alot of B1G1 sales on BR. I bargain hunt and I've actually picked up quite a few titles from there. I picked up Pirates 3 BR for $14.99 about a month ago.

Woochifer
02-21-2008, 12:06 PM
Good point CC does carry a few better lines in my opinion, like Onkyo and HK. They have Polk which I would prefer over BB's Klipsch and Bose. However, BB has turned the table in markets where they have the Magnolia hook up.

Actually, CC dropped all of their Harmon Intl. product lines last year -- JBL, Infinity, Harmon, etc. In their place, they picked up brands from D&M Holdings, including Denon and Boston Acoustics. I really don't understand that move, since BB's Magnolia subsidiary already fills out a huge amount of its product lineup with the D&M brands. You'd think that CC would compete better by differentiating themselves from BB.

Onkyo, Polk, and Hitachi are some of the brands off the top of my head that CC carries that are not carried by BB.


I didn't realize BB had exclusives but compared to Amazon, BB's prices are embarrassingly high on movies, especially Blu-ray.

BB, CC, Target, Borders, and Wal-Mart all have exclusive bonus features with some of their new DVD releases. It's basically their way of trying to pull DVD shoppers into their stores. Typically, these extras include an exclusive bonus disc -- e.g., CC had this for the Apocalypse Now dossier edition, BB included one on Master and Commander and many others, and Target included one with 24. BB frequently throws in steelbook or rectilinear packaging (which I particularly like). Other items might include the screenplay (Target exclusive with Devil Wears Prada), an exclusive comic book (BB exclusives for Superman Returns and Batman Begins), a beanie cap (BB throw-in for Coach Carter), or the original book (like when BB's early copies of Friday Night Lights came bundled with the book). These things might not mean much to most consumers, but to hardcore collectors (which all these stores are trying to attract in the first place with their week-of-release sale pricing) it might be just enough to pull them into Target instead of Best Buy or vice versa.

Also, I would not call BB's prices "embarassingly high" because that's not the case across the board. (Check Borders' regular prices if you want to see "embarassingly high.") For new releases, BB often undercuts Amazon during the week of release, and their rotating sale prices can also go significantly lower than Amazon. This week they put a bunch of their gangster pics on sale for $5, and last week, the theme was romantic comedies.

I will admit though that BB's Blu-ray's prices are definitely on the high side. I suspect that this will change as the market matures.

I rarely buy DVDs at full price from BB. I'll either buy them on the week of release when the prices are lowest and some of them come with those aforementioned bonus features, wait for a sale price later on, or wait for a Reward Zone coupon. Same thing goes for Borders -- I wait for a coupon or sale price before ever buying anything there.

Mr Peabody
02-21-2008, 01:34 PM
I agree, picking up D&M products is a puzzling move. There must be some kind of discounting that D&M does for the retailers similar to what Rockford does because with CC carrying D&M means almost every stereo store in my town has Denon. If it wasn't for everyone having Denon I would probably pick it up over HK. It definitely has brand recognition and a good rep. Denon used to be associated with semi-specialty stores but I guess they are opting for the dollar signs. It's also a puzzling move for Denon as the "CI" series receivers has a host of installer features, including some of them being able to be adjusted from an installers office desk. Who's going to do this from CC or BB.

I must have seen the Wal-Mart exclusives and not even realized it. Whenever we bought animated releases for the kids at WM I usually bought the package with the soundtrack. I don't remember seeing those dual packages any where else.

pixelthis
02-21-2008, 01:50 PM
Why is the pickup of D&M such a puzzle?
The quality of harmon products has stank lately, what would YOU rather have, a Denon or a Harmon? I thought so.
Places like sams club undercut places like CC a great. deal, which isnt difficult
since they charge full retail.
CC has been run poorly lately, but it probably doesnt matter much, the future of a lot of retail is online.
THIS CUTS OUT THE MIDDLEMAN, and saves a great deal.
THINGS LIKE CLOTHES, groceries, etc have an advantage, but items like electronics
are a natural for sale on the net.
Of course if you buy stuff on the net dont complain in the future when the only thing
you have to go by when making a decision is a pic and a review, because there wont be any stores to look at stuff before you buy it:1:

Woochifer
02-21-2008, 03:00 PM
I agree, picking up D&M products is a puzzling move. There must be some kind of discounting that D&M does for the retailers similar to what Rockford does because with CC carrying D&M means almost every stereo store in my town has Denon. If it wasn't for everyone having Denon I would probably pick it up over HK. It definitely has brand recognition and a good rep. Denon used to be associated with semi-specialty stores but I guess they are opting for the dollar signs. It's also a puzzling move for Denon as the "CI" series receivers has a host of installer features, including some of them being able to be adjusted from an installers office desk. Who's going to do this from CC or BB.

I don't think Denon has a choice but to aggressively move some of their product into the big box chains, because those specialty stores that you mention are disappearing rapidly. For years, Denon did fine thru a network of indies and regional specialty chains like Good Guys and Tweeter. Problem is that Good Guys (and other similar chains) shuttered all of its stores, and Tweeter has withdrawn from most regional markets, including those that it entered after buying up local electronics chains. This leaves Denon with far fewer outlets to choose from, so pushing into CC is one way of maintaining market share.

I've also seen that D&M Holdings is making a play to become a large CE conglomerate like Harmon International. For Best Buy's Magnolia subsidiary, it made total sense to turn much of their floor space over to D&M's brands because they one suppier can fill out a significant portion of their product lineup. Magnolia's other major supplier is Sumiko, which distributes Pro-Ject, Sumiko, Sonus Faber, Vienna Acoustics, Primare, and REL, all of which are available at Magnolia stores (not necessarily all at the Best Buy locations).

The move makes no sense for CC unless as you say dollar signs were involved. IMO, JBL and Infinity are much stronger speaker brands than Boston Acoustics, but then again, specialty speakers are not as huge a market as other components that Denon produces.

Mr Peabody
02-21-2008, 04:36 PM
Sonus Faber is owned by the Italian company that recently bought ARC. I didn't realize Magnolia had Primare.

Pix the reason it was puzzling is because if you are in business you want to offer something different to the public than what everyone else has and if you picked up in my post I said everyone in town practically carries Denon. Why have several different stores selling the same thing? What if all the car dealers in town sold Chevy?

Rich-n-Texas
02-21-2008, 05:33 PM
I can atest to the fact that CC carries Onkyo. Only problem is, they didn't have anyone available who understood their auditioning room enough to switch to the 805 so I could listen to it. :rolleyes:

Rich-n-Texas
02-21-2008, 05:36 PM
Why is the pickup of D&M such a puzzle?
The quality of harmon products has stank lately, what would YOU rather have, a Denon or a Harmon? I thought so.
Places like sams club undercut places like CC a great. deal, which isnt difficult
since they charge full retail.
CC has been run poorly lately, but it probably doesnt matter much, the future of a lot of retail is online.
THIS CUTS OUT THE MIDDLEMAN, and saves a great deal.
THINGS LIKE CLOTHES, groceries, etc have an advantage, but items like electronics
are a natural for sale on the net.
Of course if you buy stuff on the net dont complain in the future when the only thing
you have to go by when making a decision is a pic and a review, because there wont be any stores to look at stuff before you buy it:1:
So I guess now we're going to have to live with the fact that we're going to be yelled at during all times of the day, huh? How sad.

Mr Peabody
02-21-2008, 06:34 PM
I can atest to the fact that CC carries Onkyo. Only problem is, they didn't have anyone available who understood their auditioning room enough to switch to the 805 so I could listen to it. :rolleyes:

Sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? Another example of a company with some one asleep at the wheel.

Rich-n-Texas
02-21-2008, 08:14 PM
Yup. They might as well not even be selling them. Makes one wonder what the manufacturers are thinking when they choose retailers like CC to get their products into the household.

(Did Wooch already answer that?) :o

mbbuchanan
02-21-2008, 10:51 PM
bb and cc both suck.here in California we have a place called frys and they suck too. the problem is these jobs used to pay well. when i worked at cc when i was fresh out of high school, it was a good job to have and you could make really good money if you were good at sales. well after a while the corporations started to cut back commissions and spiffs (spiffs being a little extra incentive to sell a certain product) to save money. next thing you know they cut out commission altogether. now even if a retail chain even has any body on commission they are not making nearly what they would have. when the only people you can hire are teens and college kids and others who are not really giving a **** about a job because they could replace the income somewhere else easily,then you get the service that you get these days. look around and you will notice that this applies pretty much any where the average shops, and sadly even car dealerships are rapidly following suit.

mbbuchanan
02-21-2008, 10:54 PM
average "joe" is what i meant to say. oh well it looks like this thread might be dead any way i probably came to late to the party. my hatred of these retail chains though, has compelled me to ***** to the air:)

mbbuchanan
02-21-2008, 10:58 PM
circuit city and bb and all other stores, on-line or on the street, are the middle man

jamison
02-22-2008, 12:15 AM
maybe i should go into CC or BB tell them I want the $100 closeout special HD-DVD player and see if they tell me i need the $100 12 foot Monster brand HDMI cable for it. it ought to be good for a few laughs.

emaidel
02-22-2008, 05:19 AM
This is an interesting thread on many levels. Onkyo, for example, has been selling Circuit City for decades. CC was, and likely still is, Onkyo's biggest customer, but has always been a trouble-spot for them: no retailer, or combination of retailers, was ever able to make up the volume of business CC provided Onkyo, but doing business with them was a "whole 'nuthu' story."

CC customarily used Onkyo as its "profit" line back in the 70's and 80's. All that meant, was Onkyo product wasn't discounted as heavily as the other brands CC carried. Of course, that was part of Onkyo's plan in the first place: sell tons of stuff to a huge retailer who maintains pricing on the product, and then you can sell to others without their worry that CC will undercut them. Unfortunately, that was too much of "having your cake and eating it too."

Insofar as online retailing vs. "brick and mortar" stores goes, this is a topic of endless debate. Online retailers have virtually no overhead whatsoever, whereas a store has tons: rent, heat, air conditioning, employee salaries, etc., etc. The only manner in which a store can compete is in terms of service, and if service is non-existent, as it often is in both CC and BB stores, well then, what's the point of going there in the first place?

Unfortunately, it's also the American consumer who is his own worst enemy. Many seem to feel the "right" to get everything at the lowest price, and to abuse the service offered by retailers. Spending hours of a salesperson's time asking questions about a product, only to leave and go purchase that product online for less is a reprehensible characteristic of many an American consumer that hasn't changed since the heyday of mail order businesses. A retailer is justified in charging a higher price for the products he sells if he offers knowledgeable salespeople and quality service. It is NOT the right of a consumer to abuse that.

Not too long ago, I went into an athletic shoe store, recommended by my podiatrist. I waited patiently as a customer tried on numerous pairs of shoes, and asked the salesperson seemingly hundreds of questions about all of them, only to leave the store without buying anything. When the salesman came to help me (and he did help in many ways a DIY shoestore couldn't possibly help) I said, "After all that time, he didn't buy anything?" The salesman shrugged his head, and said, "he's going to buy it online for less."

This is nothing less than outrageous. The more people who continue to abuse the service offered by the few retailers left who provide that service, the less likely any of those retailers will be able to remain in business. I don't know about the rest of you, but I really don't want to spend the rest of my life selecting whatever I wish to purchase from a computer screen.

audio amateur
02-22-2008, 06:03 AM
Those are good points Emaidel. It's definitely unfair on those who provide quality service. However, we are human beings in the end, and things like these will always be (unless you like to give your money away). Especially when you are tight on cash. I had this dilemma when purchasing the recent speakers i have a couple weeks ago. I was looking for good prices on the internet/ebay, and auditioning stuff at a local dealer, for a long time. I had been several times to the shop to listen to the stuff. I wasn't sure what I was going to do, but in the end I finally bought them in person. I figured they were relatively nice to me, price was down a bit from normal and I would get 5 year warranty.

emaidel
02-22-2008, 06:08 AM
This has been a sore point for me for a very long time. Few things bothered me more than spending countless hours explaining how a product works to a potential customer, only to learn later that that customer bought the product elsewhere for less. In some instances, the customer actually had the temerity to return to my store and ask me how to use it! Needless to say, I wasn't particularly cooperative at that point.

Items such as laundry detergent, or a jar of peanut butter can be purchased solely based on price. No one has to explain how to use the detergent, or how to eat peanut butter (or, so one would hope!). When a live person is needed to help and advise a customer, that person needs to be properly compensated - not abused.

Rich-n-Texas
02-22-2008, 06:43 AM
This is an interesting thread on many levels. Onkyo, for example, has been selling Circuit City for decades. CC was, and likely still is, Onkyo's biggest customer, but has always been a trouble-spot for them: no retailer, or combination of retailers, was ever able to make up the volume of business CC provided Onkyo, but doing business with them was a "whole 'nuthu' story."
I don't know about the old days of CC, but maybe people who bought Onkyo (and other) receivers were wowed by all the visible buttons and features and just assumed that since it's also quite pricey, what more needs to be said about it. I'd also tend to believe that auditioning rooms are a relatively new concept in the big box stores.


CC customarily used Onkyo as its "profit" line back in the 70's and 80's. All that meant, was Onkyo product wasn't discounted as heavily as the other brands CC carried. Of course, that was part of Onkyo's plan in the first place: sell tons of stuff to a huge retailer who maintains pricing on the product, and then you can sell to others without their worry that CC will undercut them. Unfortunately, that was too much of "having your cake and eating it too."

Insofar as online retailing vs. "brick and mortar" stores goes, this is a topic of endless debate. Online retailers have virtually no overhead whatsoever, whereas a store has tons: rent, heat, air conditioning, employee salaries, etc., etc. The only manner in which a store can compete is in terms of service, and if service is non-existent, as it often is in both CC and BB stores, well then, what's the point of going there in the first place?
The truth for me is, I do less and less shopping in the stores and more online. With few excepts, prices are better, NO SALES TAX in most situations, free delivery more often than not, and with the exception of a few of the bottom feeders (one in particular comes to mind), hassle free delivery. Most of the time that I go into a store is just to get my hands on the merchandise for a good looking over. But no, I don't think I'd buy my shoes online. :smilewinkgrin:


Unfortunately, it's also the American consumer who is his own worst enemy. Many seem to feel the "right" to get everything at the lowest price, and to abuse the service offered by retailers. Spending hours of a salesperson's time asking questions about a product, only to leave and go purchase that product online for less is a reprehensible characteristic of many an American consumer that hasn't changed since the heyday of mail order businesses. A retailer is justified in charging a higher price for the products he sells if he offers knowledgeable salespeople and quality service. It is NOT the right of a consumer to abuse that.
Maybe these are the same people who just walked off the car dealer's lot frustrated by the fact that some slimey used car salesman tried to rip them off on the purchase of a lemon. Internal defense mechanism and all that. People talk about how well Crutchfield supports the products they sell so that would be a good example in justifying your argument.


Not too long ago, I went into an athletic shoe store, recommended by my podiatrist. I waited patiently as a customer tried on numerous pairs of shoes, and asked the salesperson seemingly hundreds of questions about all of them, only to leave the store without buying anything. When the salesman came to help me (and he did help in many ways a DIY shoestore couldn't possibly help) I said, "After all that time, he didn't buy anything?" The salesman shrugged his head, and said, "he's going to buy it online for less."
Well, the salespeople DO get a paycheck right? Eight hours is 8 hours?


This is nothing less than outrageous. The more people who continue to abuse the service offered by the few retailers left who provide that service, the less likely any of those retailers will be able to remain in business. I don't know about the rest of you, but I really don't want to spend the rest of my life selecting whatever I wish to purchase from a computer screen.
How do you think I got so fat? :biggrin5:

Groundbeef
02-22-2008, 07:06 AM
This has been a sore point for me for a very long time. Few things bothered me more than spending countless hours explaining how a product works to a potential customer, only to learn later that that customer bought the product elsewhere for less. In some instances, the customer actually had the temerity to return to my store and ask me how to use it! Needless to say, I wasn't particularly cooperative at that point.

Items such as laundry detergent, or a jar of peanut butter can be purchased solely based on price. No one has to explain how to use the detergent, or how to eat peanut butter (or, so one would hope!). When a live person is needed to help and advise a customer, that person needs to be properly compensated - not abused.

While I can appreciate your frustration, I do not completely share your viewpoint. Many times I think that retailers "over price" their advice. I've posted this example before, and I think that it still drives home a point.

When constructing my new home, I solicited bids from a local "A/V Pro" in the area. Carries top shelf equipment, most above my budget, but I can always aspire right? Anyway I wanted him to wire my home before sheetrock was hung. I also asked for a bid for equipment separate from the wiring work. This work would have entailed about 4-6 hours of labor, and approximatly 500' of wire. I talked and worked with the owner for about 3 hours on his site, and 30 minutes on site laying out locations, and the wire pulls.

Keep in mind that there was NO drywall up, only studs. I then got his "wiring" bid and it was approximatly $3000. For wiring. And to top it off, he was going to use standard 16g cable. Nothing fancy or shielded. The equipment was going to run an additional $2500 for a receiver, and cd player, and 6 speakers mounted flush in the wall.

I walked away, and did the wiring myself with THX certified wire (for what it was worth) that I purchased online for about $400.

The moral of the story? Advice is great. But don't confuse it with good service. If your prices are out of line for the service being provided, don't be suprised to find people leaving your store to purchse elsewhere.

emaidel
02-22-2008, 08:37 AM
I think the last two posts trivialize what I've been trying to say. A salesperson doesn't just get "8 hours pay for 8 hours work," but is compensated for that which he sells. Most of the time a salesperson gets a base salary, and then an additional compensation, or commission, on his sales. It's just wrong for anyone to use much of that person's time and knowledge (assuming, of course, he's knowledgeable in the first place) and then go somewhere else and buy the product for less. Many retailers spend countless hours training their sales personnel on how products work, and what makes one better than another. Those retailers also spend a considerable amount of their own money to purchase all the items seen on display (does anyone think the demo models are free?), and once the model is discontinued, the dealer has to sell off the demo units at a loss of profit.

Unfortunately, many online retailers use the investments of these retail stores to their own advantage: "shop around, ask questions, and then come to us." "Us" is usually a small room with a bunch of people sitting at computers, often with little or no knowledge of the products they have for sale. There is rarely a warehouse (another major expense for a "brick and mortar" retailer) as most of the time, the order is just sent off to the manufacturer, who then ships the product to the consumer directly. Of course, the ethics of the manufacturers who do this comes into question too, if they're trying to support both kinds of retailers.

Naturally, not all online retailers are this unsavory. Personally, I can't vouch highly enough for amazon,com, based on my experiences shopping with them. But amazon would never suggest spending hours of a salesperson's time asking questions and then suggesting buying from them (amazon) for less.


Insofar as Onkyo and CC, I worked for Onkyo from 1980 -1983, and know that most other electronics manufacturers would have given their left arms to do the business we did with CC at the time. The CC customers who purchased Onkyo product weren't necesessarily "wowed" by bells and whistles, but by the product's performance. Believe me, when it came to "bells and whistles," Onkyo fell rather short compared to most others.

Onkyo was positioned as CC's "premiere" line, and rightfully so: it was better in almost all respects than the Pioneer, JVC and other competing products CC carried at the time.

A retailer has a right to charge a reasonable amount more than someone else if he provides some sort of service that justifies it. The key word of course, is "reasonable."

Groundbeef
02-22-2008, 09:29 AM
I think the last two posts trivialize what I've been trying to say. A salesperson doesn't just get "8 hours pay for 8 hours work," but is compensated for that which he sells. Most of the time a salesperson gets a base salary, and then an additional compensation, or commission, on his sales. It's just wrong for anyone to use much of that person's time and knowledge (assuming, of course, he's knowledgeable in the first place) and then go somewhere else and buy the product for less. Many retailers spend countless hours training their sales personnel on how products work, and what makes one better than another. Those retailers also spend a considerable amount of their own money to purchase all the items seen on display (does anyone think the demo models are free?), and once the model is discontinued, the dealer has to sell off the demo units at a loss of profit.

And I think you are over sensitive to the role a retail salesperson plays in modern retailing. While I agree that salesperson is important in helping a consumer choose a product, it doesn't give the retailer the "right" to charge more for a commodity product. Lets get real here. If the consumer in your example at the shoe store was buying a pair of athletic shoes, its a commodity item. If he were buying a pair of Itailan Leather Loafers handmade by the salesman, thatsa different story. If the customer can save $15 on the internet, then the BM store should work to be more efficient in its operations, or offer different services unavailable online. If you are selling the SAME commodity product, don't expect to sell for OVER the market price simply because you have a "salesman" waiting on customers.

And as far as the "demo" unit example goes, I'm calling BS on your theory. Demo units, if used correctly are just that. A unit to showcase the capabilities of the actual working product. If a retailer squirls them away in a dark corner, gathering dust, then maybe they won't work out. But if its part of an attractive display, and showcased well, it should drive traffic to BUY the unit. In this way, the retailer would sell more units than otherwise w/out the demo. And in the end, if he (the retailer) sells the "demo" unit at less than retail, the gained margin should more than offset the "demo" cost. Furthermore, the retailer should be working out an allowance from the mfg, or work out other methods of consideration to balance out the "cost" of the unit. If they are doing neither, then shame on them.



Unfortunately, many online retailers use the investments of these retail stores to their own advantage: "shop around, ask questions, and then come to us." "Us" is usually a small room with a bunch of people sitting at computers, often with little or no knowledge of the products they have for sale. There is rarely a warehouse (another major expense for a "brick and mortar" retailer) as most of the time, the order is just sent off to the manufacturer, who then ships the product to the consumer directly. Of course, the ethics of the manufacturers who do this comes into question too, if they're trying to support both kinds of retailers.

There is a myth that online retailing is "costless". On the surface, there may be less fixed cost in terms of real estate (buildings), but there are costs. Warehouses need to be maintained, logistics need to be worked out (shipping/recieving/returns/warrenty). Not all of these "e-tailers" are drop shippers, and many are simply extensions of real-world retailers.

Manufacturers owe nothing to retailers. They are looking to sell their goods. If an online outlet can sell 10X the volume of a poorly run BM operation, who are you to judge them? I would argue, it is the retailers responsiblity to ensure they are sellling the most in the most efficient method, with the lowest cost to consumers. Its not the job of the MFG to make sure the retailer is profitable.

This is why some retailers have gotten smarter (and Mfg's) and are using different models for different stores. Chances are, the same TV (model) at CC is different from the model at BB. It might not be much, or even a cosmetic difference, but it is different. Then you can charge a differential cost. But if you are selling the same widgets as X, I don't care if your salesman have 100 hrs of training. I'll go for the lower cost.



Naturally, not all online retailers are this unsavory. Personally, I can't vouch highly enough for amazon,com, based on my experiences shopping with them. But amazon would never suggest spending hours of a salesperson's time asking questions and then suggesting buying from them (amazon) for less.

Please. Amazon doesnt' care where you normally buy from. Do you think that Amazon gave a rats' ass that you used to buy books from Barnes & Noble? No. They started their business by selling a commodity (a book) for less than the BM store. And now they are doing it for everything else. If its the same model/book/whatever, they sell it for less.




A retailer has a right to charge a reasonable amount more than someone else if he provides some sort of service that justifies it. The key word of course, is "reasonable."

No. The good retailers either don't charge for "service", they make it available everyday, 365, and charge the same price for the same good. Thats what makes them "better".

If you want to charge more, don't sell the same stuff as every other swingin' d!ck on the market. Sell something unique, or different.

Rich-n-Texas
02-22-2008, 10:55 AM
I haven't read all of GB's response yet, but just off the top of my head, I agree with his assesment of your position here: you are waaay overstating the salesperson's role in this context emaidel.The retailer doesn't care about anything else but the bottom line. Period. If the sales flunkies are all huddled in a corner picking their noses, and the retailer's staying in the black, why does he care about *salesperson* abuse?

I don't think I've trivalized anything. I go on the belief that in this greed driven society, its me against the corporate giant, and above all, I'll spend my hard-earned dollars the way I see fit. I couldn't care less if the interface unit's feelings get hurt. It's MY money!

emaidel
02-22-2008, 11:41 AM
If the consumer in your example at the shoe store was buying a pair of athletic shoes, its a commodity item.

In the inestimable words of my favorite TV judge, Judge Judy, "Baloney."

In the example I used, I had been sent to this particular store because the salespeople themselves were runners, and were highly educated as to the effects of pronation and other aspects of shoe design. They very carefully had me stand so they could observe the stance of my legs/feet, and then walk to and fro. Then, they recommended several different pairs of shoes for me to try on, and observed the manner in which they fit my feet. They also did this knowing I needed to wear a supplied arch support due to having contracted plantar fasciitis. This entire procedure took about a half an hour, and I left the store, quite satisfied with a pair of shoes that fit me perfectly. The man I mentioned received precisely the same treatment from these kind folks, spent about 45 minutes with them, and then walked out. If you don't see something wrong with that picture, then I'm just not getting through.


And as far as the "demo" unit example goes, I'm calling BS on your theory.

Almost all manufacturers in the audio industry provided lower prices for demo units, as those would always have to be sold down at, or below cost once the product's lifespan ended. There's certainly nothing wrong with that, and it provides a service to the consumer. Online retailers don't incur any such expenses.



There is a myth that online retailing is "costless".

Not "costless," but far "less costly."




.


At this juncture, let us agree to disagree. We are on polar opposites on this one, and my feelings and beliefs are based on the 14 years I spent in retail, as well as the following 25 working for different manufacturers.

Groundbeef
02-22-2008, 12:14 PM
At this juncture, let us agree to disagree. We are on polar opposites on this one, and my feelings and beliefs are based on the 14 years I spent in retail, as well as the following 25 working for different manufacturers.

Well, with all due respect, I think we can do that.

While I don't want to come off as "anti-salesman" I think that times have changed quite drastically since your stint on the front lines.

Assuming you've just retired, that would put you in retail back in 1968-1982. At that time Sears was doing better, Wal-Mart was just a "rural" retailer with KMart laughing at its smaller, less effective competition.

I agree that the service you got at the shoestore was excellent. And, I'm glad that you bought your shoes there. But as for the other customer? Is it the fault of the customer that he wants a lower price? No. Lots of specialty retailers have these difficulties. That is why they need to offer something that isn't easily duplicated/purchased elsewhere. Belive it or not, shoes are a commodity item. If your shoestore had specialty running shoes that only they carried (and others like them) it would be much harder for customers to "vote with their feet".

For example, where I live, we have a specialty bike retailer called BikeTek. My wife and I bought both of our bikes there for a hefty premium over the box stores. We could have paid much less, but wouldn't have gotten the better parts and individual attention.

However, for my kids we shopped them, but ended up buying at ToysRUs. Why? Well for starters the bikes were very expensive. The lowest priced girls bike at the shop was just over $115. Helmets (Bell Safety Approved!) started @ $40.

ToysRUs had ASSEMBLED bikes starting at $35.00. Helmets (Bell Safety Approved) @ $15.00. And there was NO service.

Guess what. We bougt the kids bikes at ToysRUs. For a short term use (1 or 2 summers at the most) why pay the premium? Was BikeTeks service so great it demanded a $100 premium? No. They informed me that they could go cheaper, but they didn't want to lower their image. BTW, I do go there to get the kids bikes repaired. Frankly, the service department told me thats where the money is anyways. New tires, pedals, and whatever else a kid may break.

Anyway, to the point. I don't mind paying for great service. However, service alone is NOT enough to justify charging more for an item that can be bought at any outlet. Online or otherwise.

JSE
02-22-2008, 12:31 PM
Anyway, to the point. I don't mind paying for great service. However, service alone is NOT enough to justify charging more for an item that can be bought at any outlet. Online or otherwise.

I think it goes both ways depending on the service and product.

For example.........

There is a Lowes, Home Depot and a neighborhood hardware store Ace all within about 5 minutes of my house. Ace is a much smaller store that has higher prices than Lowes and HD. However, I can walk into a Lowes and a HD with a question and 9 times out of 10, I leaving these stores with the same question still unanswered. The sales people there have no freaking clue. In contrast, I can walk into Ace and within the first 10 seconds a nice salesperson asks me if I need any help. I tell them what I need or ask them my question and I get answers. Correct answers at that! Every floor salesperson is there knows their stuff. If I don't know how to do something, they will take the time to explain if fully and supply me with whatever is needed. Now granted they charge a higher price for the same products that Lowes and HD carry but they also supply knowledge and far superior service. The Ace is my neighborhood is packed all day everyday with people. They do a huge business and know most of the regulars. If I can buy it at Ace I do even at the higher price. The only time Lowes and HD get my business anymore is if they carry something I can't get at Ace.

JSE

Groundbeef
02-22-2008, 12:49 PM
I think it goes both ways depending on the service and product.

For example.........

There is a Lowes, Home Depot and a neighborhood hardware store Ace all within about 5 minutes of my house. Ace is a much smaller store that has higher prices than Lowes and HD. However, I can walk into a Lowes and a HD with a question and 9 times out of 10, I leaving these stores with the same question still unanswered. The sales people there have no freaking clue. In contrast, I can walk into Ace and within the first 10 seconds a nice salesperson asks me if I need any help. I tell them what I need or ask them my question and I get answers. Correct answers at that! Every floor salesperson is there knows their stuff. If I don't know how to do something, they will take the time to explain if fully and supply me with whatever is needed. Now granted they charge a higher price for the same products that Lowes and HD carry but they also supply knowledge and far superior service. The Ace is my neighborhood is packed all day everyday with people. They do a huge business and know most of the regulars. If I can buy it at Ace I do even at the higher price. The only time Lowes and HD get my business anymore is if they carry something I can't get at Ace.

JSE

Thats great. My neighbor is a District Manager for Ace. I'll let him know you like Ace.

And I think your example is great. I think that the level of service that you are expecting, matches what you are willing to pay. In this case, quite frankly you are paying minimal for the service you are getting. Got a plumbing question? PVC pipe might be $.02/ft cheaper at Lowes.

Need a wrench? The Cobalt brand at Lowes might be $1.25 less.

But I would be willing to bet that if the prices jumped up to 20% higher you would reevaluate your purchase habits.

And, I haven't been into Ace in the last couple of months, but I'm pretty sure they haven't changed their slogan to "Come Into Ace. We have GREAT Service, so we Charge More for It".

I think the expectation of Ace customers is that they get great service, and its price differential is minimal at best.

emaidel
02-22-2008, 01:18 PM
I can walk into a Lowes and a HD with a question and 9 times out of 10, I leaving these stores with the same question still unanswered. The sales people there have no freaking clue. In contrast, I can walk into Ace and within the first 10 seconds a nice salesperson asks me if I need any help. I tell them what I need or ask them my question and I get answers. Correct answers at that!
JSE


I too lament the preponderance of Home Depot and Lowe's stores over the scarcity of Ace Hardware stores. When I lived in Littleton, Colorado, there was an Ace I went to just about all the time, in prefence to either Home Depot or Lowe's, and for the precisely the same reasons as you.

Where I live now there are no Ace stores nearby, but if there were, I'd go there anyday over Home Depot and Lowe's, if for no other reason than not having to walk five miles from one end of the store to another to find the correct light bulb for the ceiling fan I just purchased..

pixelthis
02-22-2008, 01:49 PM
I haven't read all of GB's response yet, but just off the top of my head, I agree with his assesment of your position here: you are waaay overstating the salesperson's role in this context emaidel.The retailer doesn't care about anything else but the bottom line. Period. If the sales flunkies are all huddled in a corner picking their noses, and the retailer's staying in the black, why does he care about *salesperson* abuse?

I don't think I've trivalized anything. I go on the belief that in this greed driven society, its me against the corporate giant, and above all, I'll spend my hard-earned dollars the way I see fit. I couldn't care less if the interface unit's feelings get hurt. It's MY money!

And this is why you'll miss out on a lot of what this hobby IS.
That "interface unit" is a human being dillweed.
If there is such a thing as reincarnation you must be what they call a young soul.
Half the fun of buying gear is BUYING GEAR.
I sat for several hours and talked to the salesman who sold me my B&W speakers.
I have bought a great great deal of gear from a local private dealer, yamaha, klipsch,.
a 65" mitshubishi, I PAY A LITTLE MORE BUT I KNOW THESE PEOPLE.
They are not "interface units" but friends.
there is a new store in Birmingham, audio volo, havent been able to get up there yet,
but I am sure I will love the experience.
And I am sure, that if you went, you would miss the point of a store like this ENTIRELY.
People who think the price is everything will get what they want eventually.
A world of big box stores manned by bored teenagers, online sales for most everything.
But hopefully there will always be a place for a high end audio shop, or for that matter a
tailor for those who aspire to more than J.C Penny, or a place where you can get a good bottle of wine.
At least I hope so:1:

Groundbeef
02-22-2008, 02:04 PM
And this is why you'll miss out on a lot of what this hobby IS.
That "interface unit" is a human being dillweed.
If there is such a thing as reincarnation you must be what they call a young soul.
Half the fun of buying gear is BUYING GEAR.
I sat for several hours and talked to the salesman who sold me my B&W speakers.
I have bought a great great deal of gear from a local private dealer, yamaha, klipsch,.
a 65" mitshubishi, I PAY A LITTLE MORE BUT I KNOW THESE PEOPLE.
They are not "interface units" but friends.
there is a new store in Birmingham, audio volo, havent been able to get up there yet,
but I am sure I will love the experience.
And I am sure, that if you went, you would miss the point of a store like this ENTIRELY.
People who think the price is everything will get what they want eventually.
A world of big box stores manned by bored teenagers, online sales for most everything.
But hopefully there will always be a place for a high end audio shop, or for that matter a
tailor for those who aspire to more than J.C Penny, or a place where you can get a good bottle of wine.
At least I hope so:1:

That was 8 hours of hell he will never get back.

Again, it's one thing to get great service. I'm all about the great service. But please don't try to tell me that it's worth a 20% premium on THE SAME PRODUCT.

People that think everything should cost more, pay more. Again, somehow you have gotten caught up in the commodity conundrum. If everyone is selling the same crap, why pay more if some guy helps you for 10-15 minutes. If he is selling me something that I can ONLY get from him, or something that he personally made, ok, then maybe.

Rich-n-Texas
02-22-2008, 06:03 PM
And this is why you'll miss out on a lot of what this hobby IS.
That "interface unit" is a human being dillweed.
:sleep: Let's see... What did Smokey say in his first post:

Since they got bad publicity last year for firing their best employees for cheaper labor, it seems they been going down the hill ever since.
Big difference between talking to a knowledgeable sales rep and "cheaper labor" wouldn't you say?


If there is such a thing as reincarnation you must be what they call a young soul.
Dillweed, yuppie, marketing type... yada yada yada. I wonder what I'm going to be tomorrow.

Half the fun of buying gear is BUYING GEAR.
Point being? I buy gear, clothes, food, music...etc. But I do try to spend wisely. Don't you? ( :lol: ) <== Fun!

I sat for several hours and talked to the salesman who sold me my B&W speakers.
I think beef gave the appropriate response to this one.

I have bought a great great deal of gear from a local private dealer, yamaha, klipsch,.
a 65" mitshubishi, I PAY A LITTLE MORE BUT I KNOW THESE PEOPLE.
Your soooo wonderful, and really full of yourself ya know?

They are not "interface units" but friends.
Pix, you know dam well that friends can be bought. Please. I don't consider CC sales reps anything more than an interface between the corporation and my wallet.

there is a new store in Birmingham, audio volo, havent been able to get up there yet,
but I am sure I will love the experience.
And I am sure, that if you went, you would miss the point of a store like this ENTIRELY.
Maybe you should go re-read the thread I started about auditioning receivers. My trips to the higher end stores pretty much quashes this laimbrained entry. I was in this HT store as well, and I talked to the reps for a good half-hour about, among other things, Yamaha receivers and their integrity in the marketplace: http://www.star-power.com/index2.html


People who think the price is everything will get what they want eventually.
A world of big box stores manned by bored teenagers, online sales for most everything.
But hopefully there will always be a place for a high end audio shop, or for that matter a
tailor for those who aspire to more than J.C Penny, or a place where you can get a good bottle of wine.
At least I hope so:1:
Which brings us back to the original topic. SO, was all this blabbering even necessary?

Mr Peabody
02-22-2008, 06:49 PM
GB, I don't see your logic here, you think a B&M store should sell for the same price as an internet retailer? That's impossible. On one hand the whole thread is overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the service at BB and CC but you fail to see why. It takes money to pay a decent salary and to keep knowledgeable staff. Depending on where you buy, a website may not have anyone to help, you just go onto the site, read the blurp and pick your product and click. How can you expect a B&M store to pay a staff and over head of a store and sell for the same price as an internet site? There's no way an internet site has near the expense of a B&M store.

To show service costs money, let's take a look at just internet, I've seen people complain and post gripes about the higher prices at Crutchfield. I've never had a problem buying from them, each purchase has been great. They offer life time tech support, phone lines for product help and a host of other services. These things cost. Look at Rich, he bought from the internet, thought he was saving some bucks, I believe it was a fairly good amount too. I haven't kept up but I don't know if he has ever even received his item yet. I'm certain this would not have happened at Crutchfield, and if by some chance it did they would have straightened it out pronto.

The point is if you want good service, it costs. A retailer internet or otherwise needs to make a reasonable profit from an item in order to deliver service. This is why Mom&Pop had to charge more than BB and CC. Mom&Pop would exchange a problem item on the spot. BB and CC don't want you back if you have a problem. AND, in order for them to afford helping with a problem they HAVE to sell you an extended warranty. The extended warranty gives them the profit that Mom&Pop was asking for. I'd personally rather pay Mom&Pop the extra money up front and honest rather than having BB and CC sales persons try to extort it out of me. In addition, that would have kept Mom&Pop in business who cared about my business.

I don't want to say I'm not guilty either, I bought my HDTV from Crutchfield after shopping B&M stores. One of the stores had commission sales staff whom I took their time as well. Here's why, same Toshiba DLP, Crutchfield, free shipping, free stand; B&M, no stand and would charge me to deliver it 20 to 30 miles when Crutchfield had to deliver cross country. I forget the actual price, it was either the exact same or Crutchfield might have even been slightly cheaper. With the shipping and free stuff I figure the two retailers had as much eating into profit. I give the B&M store a chance to match or work a deal, they didn't want to do anything, so they lost a sale. Crutchfield even shipped the stand ahead so I could have it together and in place when the TV arrived.

You want to receive a fair days wages for your work don't you? I don't know what you do but your company makes money doing something or you wouldn't have a job. If people took your time and left to get what you provide from some one else, you wouldn't have a job long. Most internet sales outlets can sell for less profit and lower prices because they have less overhead, just a fact. Crutchfield is an exception because they provide services most other internet store, or most B&M, don't provide.

Mr Peabody
02-22-2008, 08:10 PM
Who's responsible for "interface unit"? I like that.

Woochifer
02-22-2008, 08:46 PM
That was 8 hours of hell he will never get back.

Again, it's one thing to get great service. I'm all about the great service. But please don't try to tell me that it's worth a 20% premium on THE SAME PRODUCT.

One thing to keep in mind though is that most products sold at retail stores are authorized vendors. Can't say the same thing about the online vendors. With many of them, they can't even guarantee that the product you get is factory sealed or even spec'd for North America (if that's where you live). Plenty of stories over the years on this and other boards of consumers who got stuck with a b-stock unit or a gray market unit with a power supply spec'd for a different country or other problems with repairs or returns, etc.

An authorized product with a full manufacturer's warranty is not the same thing as a product coming from an unauthorized vendor with a warranty that the manufacturer will not honor. I recall that Denon basically allowed customers who bought from unauthorized websites one repair call, and after that the customer was on their own. Yamaha would enforce their warranties by not allowing their service centers to work on unauthorized units, even if the customer offers to pay for the repairs.

It comes down to risk and reward. The upside by going with an unauthorized vendor is obviously the lower price, but the downside manifests itself if things go awry (i.e., you decide you don't want the product, if the product breaks down, etc.). Personally, I think that the customer should be more willing to negotiate with a retail store. At the very least, people should give the store the right to first refusal. If the price is still too high, then they're free to go somewhere else. As others have said, where do you go to try things out when the local audio stores go out of business?


People that think everything should cost more, pay more. Again, somehow you have gotten caught up in the commodity conundrum. If everyone is selling the same crap, why pay more if some guy helps you for 10-15 minutes. If he is selling me something that I can ONLY get from him, or something that he personally made, ok, then maybe.

This is a topic that's gone around many times on this board, and it always comes down to those who feel that it's the birthright for the customer to obtain product practically at cost at one extreme, and those who feel that retail pricing should reflect the total overhead cost involved in supporting a product both at the time of sale AND after the sale.

I think you're trivializing the role of the retailer -- it's not just the sales person, but the physical place where a customer can try a product out, the warranty support, the place to return a product if you don't like it, the place to borrow a demo unit for home trial, etc. You're looking at a product strictly as a commodity, but there's always more to something than just the commodity itself. That's basic economics, every transaction has a value added component to it, and that will vary depending on which vendor you go with. If you're willing to dispense with the value added, then you'll obviously place all value strictly in the price -- e.g., most shoppers won't just go with a commodity without some guarantee that the product will work, and that there's recourse if it doesn't. Others expect a higher level of service, a longer duration for the return policy, etc. None of that comes for free.

Groundbeef
02-23-2008, 10:18 AM
One thing to keep in mind though is that most products sold at retail stores are authorized vendors. Can't say the same thing about the online vendors. With many of them, they can't even guarantee that the product you get is factory sealed or even spec'd for North America (if that's where you live). Plenty of stories over the years on this and other boards of consumers who got stuck with a b-stock unit or a gray market unit with a power supply spec'd for a different country or other problems with repairs or returns, etc.

An authorized product with a full manufacturer's warranty is not the same thing as a product coming from an unauthorized vendor with a warranty that the manufacturer will not honor. I recall that Denon basically allowed customers who bought from unauthorized websites one repair call, and after that the customer was on their own. Yamaha would enforce their warranties by not allowing their service centers to work on unauthorized units, even if the customer offers to pay for the repairs.

It comes down to risk and reward. The upside by going with an unauthorized vendor is obviously the lower price, but the downside manifests itself if things go awry (i.e., you decide you don't want the product, if the product breaks down, etc.). Personally, I think that the customer should be more willing to negotiate with a retail store. At the very least, people should give the store the right to first refusal. If the price is still too high, then they're free to go somewhere else. As others have said, where do you go to try things out when the local audio stores go out of business?



This is a topic that's gone around many times on this board, and it always comes down to those who feel that it's the birthright for the customer to obtain product practically at cost at one extreme, and those who feel that retail pricing should reflect the total overhead cost involved in supporting a product both at the time of sale AND after the sale.

I think you're trivializing the role of the retailer -- it's not just the sales person, but the physical place where a customer can try a product out, the warranty support, the place to return a product if you don't like it, the place to borrow a demo unit for home trial, etc. You're looking at a product strictly as a commodity, but there's always more to something than just the commodity itself. That's basic economics, every transaction has a value added component to it, and that will vary depending on which vendor you go with. If you're willing to dispense with the value added, then you'll obviously place all value strictly in the price -- e.g., most shoppers won't just go with a commodity without some guarantee that the product will work, and that there's recourse if it doesn't. Others expect a higher level of service, a longer duration for the return policy, etc. None of that comes for free.

Contrary to what many of you might belive, I do very little shopping online. About the only thing I buy online are parts to build a computer, and thats about every 3 years. I buy from Newegg.com, the prices are right, shipping is cheap, and I get the info I need on parts to buy from my gaming rags (thats what I center my computer buying parts needs around).

Other than that, I buy from B&M stores. BB, the petstore, Target, Meijer, and the grocery store.

I just don't buy the argument that people "need" to pay for service. Thats exactly WHY people buy online. Why "pay" for service. To me, the service provided in the store is the carrot being used to buy a product. It should not be a precourser for the retailer to charge me more for a product that can be bought eleswhere for less. (all other things being equal).

To me, this argument makes as much sense as needing to pay for a product, BEFORE discussing your options with a salesman.

I did also enjoy your comments on gray market merchandise. In electronics this is a real concern, and should make consumers wary when purchasing online.

Mr Peabody
02-23-2008, 10:45 AM
GB, discussing your options is a service provided by that retailer. If a product does not have enough profit margin then how do you propose the sales person gets paid? You can't have it both ways, either you buy from a serviceless warehouse, let's say, for example 10% over cost, or you buy from a full service retailer who may have to charge 20% over cost in order to be able to afford offering service. The reason BB and CC got popular was the lower prices offered but in order to do that something had to give and it was service thus we have BB and CC as it is described here.

Unfortunately in today's society people seem to think that experience and knowledge has no dollar value. You can see it as corporations let go their more experienced workers for cheaper labor right out of school. For some reason they can't see the damage that causes because all they look at is the bottomline.

Take the shoe scenario Emaidel was talking about, the point is, the guy could not have gotten his shoes from the internet by himself. He could have gotten a pair of shoes but he wouldn't have known which ones were best for him. That knowledge and time the sales person spent helping him has a monitary value and the fact that people no longer recognize that is alarming and the real reason BB, CC, and many other retailers, are what they are.

bobsticks
02-23-2008, 11:34 AM
I agree with emaidel and I agree with Groundbeef...and that drives me crazy. It also tells me that there is a point which has perhaps not been well articulated in this thread. That is that there are levels of service and each level has it's own intrinsic value or utility or lack thereof.

A while back I auditioned a Krell SACD Standrad from Audio Solutions, my local boutique. The boys knew the specs by memory, and indeed whether the unit passed straight DSD or not, and recommended to me a home audition. I was prepared to lay down a credit card or pay a security deposit or whatever, but before I knew it they'd boxed up that tank, it was in my hot little paws and I was on my way home. You can't honestly believe that I would buy online if I saw the same unit a few hundred dollars less...a thousand maybe, but even then I'd feel guilty.

OTOH, if I go into Best Buy the odds are even that I'll have to explain the difference between HDMI 1.1 and 1.3 to the salesperson. If I go into Circuit City odds are almost certain that I'll have to explain to the salesdufus where the frontdoor is. You don't get to charge me extra for apathy and idiocy. If the corps. wanna fire all the good people I'm in favor of making them pay for it.

Clearly a determination must be made in each instance. Good service and knowledgeable employees should be rewarded, just as I'll vote with my wallet against cell phones on the salesfloor and other rude behavior.

Just my .02.

Rich-n-Texas
02-23-2008, 11:43 AM
Who's responsible for "interface unit"? I like that.
That would be me. Pix didn't like it too much though. :rolleyes:

emaidel
02-23-2008, 12:56 PM
A while back I auditioned a Krell SACD Standrad from Audio Solutions, my local boutique. The boys knew the specs by memory, and indeed whether the unit passed straight DSD or not, and recommended to me a home audition. I was prepared to lay down a credit card or pay a security deposit or whatever, but before I knew it they'd boxed up that tank, it was in my hot little paws and I was on my way home. You can't honestly believe that I would buy online if I saw the same unit a few hundred dollars less...a thousand maybe, but even then I'd feel guilty.



This is precisely what I meant as service by knowledeable salespeople for which a premium is charged, and due. Just as in the example I used about the atheltic shoe store: those salespeople knew their stuff, and knew it enough that they were recommended to me by my podiatrist, not my nextdoor neighbor. For anyone to take advantage of their knowledge and valuable time for 45 minutes, and then leave to go buy shoes elsewhere is inexcuseable. Their service has a monetary value and this person simply took advantage of their good nature for his own selfish needs. Is this a service one should be expected to pay for? Absolutely.

I'm a certifiable wine snob, and often purchase cases of wine, but am reluctant to do so from an online wine retailer. Often, even the best wines are contaminated with a substance called "TCA," and such wines are referred to as having been "corked." The typical indication a wine has become corked is a strong, musty odor, as well as an equally unpleasant, musty taste. This happens today to as much as 15% of wines sold.

If I purchased a case from a winery (which I do often), or from a local wine shop with a full time sommelier on staff, I could readily have that bottle replaced. Naturally, the replacement would come a good deal more easily from a lcoal wine shop, and such shop owners are well aware of the preponderance of TCA. I seriously doubt I'd ever get such satisfaction from an online wine merchant, though I probably would have paid less for the wine.

I have to admit that I've been able to find certain wines and/or liquors on line that I just couldn't find anywhere else. So, obviously, there's good and bad all around. Still, whether it be audio equipment, athletic shoes or wine, I'll readily pay more for good service no matter what it is I'm buying.

I guess it's no surprise then that I positively refuse to patronize Wal Mart.

Mr Peabody
02-23-2008, 04:25 PM
So Bobsticks, what happened with the Krell unit?

Thanks for the wine lesson but is there any way to tell it's corked without uncorking? Somebody gave my daughter a bottle of wine as a gift and it was supposed to be expensive. It was not very good to me, very bitter, and I just don't mean dry. I thought if that's what expensive wine tastes like I'll stick with Gallo. Alright, Emaidel, get up off the floor. I'm obviously not a wine conosouer, nor do I drink anymore.

emaidel
02-23-2008, 04:45 PM
Unfortunately, there's no way to tell a wine is corked until it's opened. The damage to the wine is caused by the TCA (sorry, but I don't remember the very long chemical name TCA stands for) that's in the cork itself, and happens as a chemical reaction between it and the wine in the sealed bottle. As all bottles sealed with corks also have a metal seal on top of that, there's no way to detect the musty smell, nor does the smell actually come out of the top of the cork either. This is why many quality wines now actually have screw-tops, even though "Chateau Screw-Top" was a euphamism for really crummy wine in the past.

And, boy, has this thread gone off course! And so, if my podiatrist recommended a certain wine...

bobsticks
02-23-2008, 05:03 PM
I guess it's no surprise then that I positively refuse to patronize Wal Mart.


See, that's the flipside of my argument...and I suspect Beefy's as well. I would if it were for something less specialized--lightbulbs, dogfood, bleach. That's akin to going to PetSmart to buy Alpo every week. Why pay a premium when no salesmanship is necessary?

As for the Krell, while it was very good it wasn't done justice by my system or room at the time. The SACD Standard is a great player that sounded a hell of a lot better in the showroom than in my very unspactular real room. With the Rotel traded out for the McIntosh I regret the decision even less as I can't imagine the two units having any kind of synergy.

Woochifer
02-23-2008, 07:25 PM
I just don't buy the argument that people "need" to pay for service. Thats exactly WHY people buy online. Why "pay" for service. To me, the service provided in the store is the carrot being used to buy a product. It should not be a precourser for the retailer to charge me more for a product that can be bought eleswhere for less. (all other things being equal).

The scenario you're outlining though is precisely why manufacturers enforce their warranty policies. In many cases, an online retailer selling a home audio item for significantly less than what retailers sell the same product for are not authorized. That alone makes things unequal. It's not just the service that people are paying for -- it's the whole chain of aftersales support that the manufacturer is basically guaranteeing, and a guarantee that the product a consumer receives comes directly from the factory distributor rather than a succession of back channels -- both legal and illegal.

The aftersales support is a part of a manufacturer's reputation, and part of that value added equation that I outlined previously. That's why some manufacturers like Klipsch and NHT have aggressively gone after unauthorized online vendors and canceled the reseller agreements with the vendors that supply them out the back door.


To me, this argument makes as much sense as needing to pay for a product, BEFORE discussing your options with a salesman.

But, isn't that exactly what online vendors already do? The only way to try something out thru a web vendor is to purchase it outright.

Groundbeef
02-24-2008, 07:06 AM
The scenario you're outlining though is precisely why manufacturers enforce their warranty policies. In many cases, an online retailer selling a home audio item for significantly less than what retailers sell the same product for are not authorized. That alone makes things unequal. It's not just the service that people are paying for -- it's the whole chain of aftersales support that the manufacturer is basically guaranteeing, and a guarantee that the product a consumer receives comes directly from the factory distributor rather than a succession of back channels -- both legal and illegal.

The aftersales support is a part of a manufacturer's reputation, and part of that value added equation that I outlined previously. That's why some manufacturers like Klipsch and NHT have aggressively gone after unauthorized online vendors and canceled the reseller agreements with the vendors that supply them out the back door.

But, isn't that exactly what online vendors already do? The only way to try something out thru a web vendor is to purchase it outright.

I think that you bring up some good points.

Therefore, I think that some there are certainly different levels of service needed for certain items. In EM's case, and certainly many A/V buff's mind, it is a requirement to "audition" A/V equipment before purchase.

For other items, (in my case computer equipement) the service level of parts is less required. If I order RAM, it doesn't matter if it's from Newegg.com, or the local Computer Deli. It is going to either work, or not. Either way, the MFG (Kingston) will honor the warrenty. They supply to both online/BM stores.

Groundbeef
02-24-2008, 09:38 AM
GB, discussing your options is a service provided by that retailer. If a product does not have enough profit margin then how do you propose the sales person gets paid? You can't have it both ways, either you buy from a serviceless warehouse, let's say, for example 10% over cost, or you buy from a full service retailer who may have to charge 20% over cost in order to be able to afford offering service. The reason BB and CC got popular was the lower prices offered but in order to do that something had to give and it was service thus we have BB and CC as it is described here.

Unfortunately in today's society people seem to think that experience and knowledge has no dollar value. You can see it as corporations let go their more experienced workers for cheaper labor right out of school. For some reason they can't see the damage that causes because all they look at is the bottomline.

Take the shoe scenario Emaidel was talking about, the point is, the guy could not have gotten his shoes from the internet by himself. He could have gotten a pair of shoes but he wouldn't have known which ones were best for him. That knowledge and time the sales person spent helping him has a monitary value and the fact that people no longer recognize that is alarming and the real reason BB, CC, and many other retailers, are what they are.

Ok, I have a couple points I would like make in reference to your posting.

1. There seems to be a prevailing mood that the ONLY way to get good information on a product is to step into a highly expensive, fully stocked showroom with only the best trained sales staff in the entire world. Clearly this isn't how things get done, nor would I ever want to pay for that type of experience.

For example, lets say that I come over to your home. I really like your equipment, how you set it up, and the kind of music you enjoy. So, as a friend, I discuss your setup, (maybe even cost if we are ok with discussing it), where you bought it etc.

Assuming I glean the info from you (an unpaid, unbiased source) WHY should I have to PAY for service that I don't need? What is the problem with me shopping an online retailer for the product? I'm not talking "gray market" either. For that matter, would you suggest that local retailers maybe have 2 cashier desks? One for customers that were helped, and the others that were "self service"? When they ask, has anyone helped you today, and you answer "NO" should you then be entitled to a 20% discount? If not, then your theory that they have to raise prices to pay commisions is out the window. Clearly, if they are NOT paying a commision, then it shouldn't be a problem to lower the price.

This is sort of the root of my issue with "paying" for service. If I NEED help from a salesperson, I may seek it out. But if I go into a transaction with the info I need, why should I have to "pay" for it?

2. The shoe issue has been covered. It doesn't matter that the service was excellent. If EM felt obligated to buy because of the excellent service, great. More power to him. However, if the shoe store somehow feels the "right" to raise prices above the market value of the product to "cover" their expenses, they will lose sales.

This is why it is important for these smaller stores to differentiate their product line from the Big Box, or online retailers. There are plenty of stores that stock products not available to online retailers. Those are the opportunites they need to exploit. But don't suggest that somehow I "NEED" to pay extra for a pair of Air Jordans because Mr. Shoeman measured my foot.

ldgibson76
02-24-2008, 11:12 AM
Hello "GroundBeef"!

Dude, usually, I'm with you on most of your observations on this forum, but this time I have to counter some of your statements regarding the importance of the sales pro or the so-called sales pro. I recently was comparing 5.1 speaker pkgs. After visiting different retailers and auditioning many pkgs, it came down to The Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grands vs. the Paradigm Studio v100's. The Vienna's are showcased in Magnolia and the Paradigms in HiFi House. Both are excellent products. Both have different profiles and sound qualities, but both are worthy speaker systems and it was hard to pick one. Price points were about the same, a little over $5K. Now here's were the Sales person and customer service comes into play. Now regardless of how good the service is, I shouldn't have to pay over MSRP. But discounting the product doesn't make my decision any easier unless it's the same product but different retailers. In Magnolia, the rep was pretty knowledgeable. He had just completed his certification for VA's products, so he was able to throw up all kinds of info about the products build quality and VA's mission. But when in came down to the demo, although a decent one, I wanted a demo that would give me the closest resemblance to my set up at home. That's a tall order I know, But it's 5K! The best he could do was the Pioneer Elite 94 with a Denon DVD1740 universal. The room size was 22 x 14 with wood wall surfaces and commercial grade carpeting with mulitple sets of speakers and AV Receivers. We put it thru it's paces and it was ok. The Vienna's are extremely accurate. All told, I spent probably 45 minutes with the guy. He, I'm sure, thought he gave a great presentation. Now, I go to Hifi House and after listening to the different speaker pkgs, settled on the Studio 100's. He asked me what type of receiver I would be using and what type of disc players I currently own. I told him. Being that I have a Marantz SR9300 and a Denon DVD2910, he then set up the 100's with a left over SR9600 with a Pioneer Elite DV-79AVi, and let me listen intently for as long as I wanted. As with the Magnolia demo, I had my own material to listen too.
The Hifi rep then asked what type of cd player?, I told him the CA 640C v.2. This guy then told me to bring it in he would connect it to the SR9600. By the way, the room size was 17 x 12 and drywall with commercial grade carpeting. My room is 18 x 11.6., drywall and thicker carpeting. So I went home, disconnected the 640C, took it back to HiFi House. He connected to the SR9600 and I listened to those Paradigms sing. And without question, the Paradigms sounded great. Did they sound better than the Vienna's. I don't know! Because I didn't have the same auditioning experience. And I don't think I could have had the same experience either. Not at Best Buy! I ordered the Paradigms a week later.
I should have them in a few days. Anyway, I could not have gained that knowledge over the internet, reading reviews and owner's opinions. So the importance of the sales rep becomes crucial. You get what you pay for. I know that if something goes wrong with the Paradigms, Hifi house will be very involved in getting the issue resolved without my having to purchase an extended service plan! Had the Hifi house carried the Vienna's, who knows, I may have gone with the Mozarts. In order for me to have a like home experience with the Vienna's, I would have had to puchase the speakers, take them home, set them up, listen and then make my decision. I realize that would have been the definition of like home experience, but very inconvenient. "Time" is also a factor in making this choice. It's all subjective. I absolutely applaud the effort the Hifi rep gave, and he deserved every penny of his commission. He even offered to come out to my home to help calibrate my system at no charge. I will take him up on that and have a substantial tip waiting for him. By the way, when I wanted to listen to one of my SACD's in multi channel at Magnolia, that was completely out of the question. The room/system was not set up to accommodate that function, but they have "universal" players on display and sell multichannel formatted music. You better believe, Hifi, made sure every connection was done in order for me an at home experience.
So the moral of this novel, until you are have experience the other side of the sale, don't put all sales reps into one category. Both were professional in their given environment/system. Some would say that Hifi House went beyond the call of duty. That's probably true in today's big box market place. To me, that was old school. He takes his profession seriously and has gained not just a customer, but a client.

Regards.

Mr Peabody
02-24-2008, 11:46 AM
GB, if you and I were in the same neighborhood we would both pay some kind of local tax or property tax. You may have kids in school and I don't, I may drive, you may take the bus, we both still have to pay the tax regardless. It's similar with retail, take lb's story, he got good service and took the sales person's time. If I wondered in and bought a pair of Studio 100's already know ing what I wanted, I'd have to pay the same price yet took less of the staff's time. Also, that is not the only kind of service, there is service after the sale. Being able to call and ask a question on your product or some one to assist if there's a repair issue. If enough people turned their back on sales persons as the one described by lb, the stores would go out of business and there wouldn't be a store to go have a "near home experience".

I hear you though, this type of service and mark up isn't necessary on what I'd call a commodity item. There's also things you are forced to get online. No one in my entire city carries replacement bulbs for DLP's, for instance. You know what you need for your computer so why not get the lowest price. I think we are all closer to middle than opposites on the issues we are just thinking about different sectors of the market maybe.

I just think it would be sleezy and lend to the destruction of the market though for lbgibson to go and have such a demo and then go order the speaker package online to save even a $100.00. I mean the guy was willing to come out and help set the system up for no extra charge. Even if you didn't need that service, I think it's important to patronize these types of service orientated stores. You may not need the service today, but you might some day, and I'd like that store to be there for me when I do.

Groundbeef
02-24-2008, 01:06 PM
Hello "GroundBeef"!

Dude, usually, I'm with you on most of your observations on this forum, but this time I have to counter some of your statements regarding the importance of the sales pro or the so-called sales pro.

Now here's were the Sales person and customer service comes into play. Now regardless of how good the service is, I shouldn't have to pay over MSRP. But discounting the product doesn't make my decision any easier unless it's the same product but different retailers. In Magnolia, the rep was pretty knowledgeable. He had just completed his certification for VA's products, so he was able to throw up all kinds of info about the products build quality and VA's mission.

All told, I spent probably 45 minutes with the guy. He, I'm sure, thought he gave a great presentation.

So I went home, disconnected the 640C, took it back to HiFi House. He connected to the SR9600 and I listened to those Paradigms sing. And without question, the Paradigms sounded great. Did they sound better than the Vienna's. I don't know! Because I didn't have the same auditioning experience. And I don't think I could have had the same experience either. Not at Best Buy! I ordered the Paradigms a week later.
I should have them in a few days. Anyway, I could not have gained that knowledge over the internet, reading reviews and owner's opinions. So the importance of the sales rep becomes crucial. You get what you pay for. I know that if something goes wrong with the Paradigms, Hifi house will be very involved in getting the issue resolved without my having to purchase an extended service plan!

It's all subjective. I absolutely applaud the effort the Hifi rep gave, and he deserved every penny of his commission. He even offered to come out to my home to help calibrate my system at no charge. I will take him up on that and have a substantial tip waiting for him.

So the moral of this novel, until you are have experience the other side of the sale, don't put all sales reps into one category. Both were professional in their given environment/system. Some would say that Hifi House went beyond the call of duty. That's probably be true in today's big box market place. To me, that was old school. He takes his profession seriously and has gained not just a customer, but a client.

Regards.

Thanks for the kind words.

And I appreciate your story, as it points out some important information with regards to sales help both during/after the sale.

In your case, a significant outlay of cash was being considered. For 5K, you have every right to demand the attention, and skill of a well trained sales person. This is of course assuming your purchase of 5K was "worth it".

For the earlier example of the running shoe, would you demand the same level of attention? No. Unless the shoes cost 5K.

Consider this, a buyer of a Kia Sophia requires a certain level of sales assistance. At the most, you would expect a full tank of gas, some detailing (clean out car, clean off "SALE" paint on windshield), and thats about it.

Now, that minimum level of service would probably suffice. Perhaps you are wishing for more, but at $9,000 you get what you pay for.

Now imagine if you going to purchase a Ferrari Enzo. At about $650,000, its highly unlikely that a full tank of gas, and a basic wash is gonna cut it. More than likely this transaction will require several test visits, maybe a meal out with the salesman. This is of course after being fully vetted by the Ferrari Dealership! In that case, you might not even be allowed near the car!

And the after service would be no less spectaular. If you need service, I would imagine they come to get the car, and return it when done. At Kia, you drop it off, and hope they have a minivan to schlep everyone to work before 8:30.

Point being, many times the level of service demanded, and provided is contingent upon the "value" of the sale.

Back to the shoe example. In that case, perhaps the level of service exceeded expectations, but wasn't relevant. While telling that the initial customer left without a purchase, maybe he didn't want that level of service. What EM felt was "great" service, the first customer felt was pushy, or needy. Nothing worse than feeling pressured to buy and feeling that way because the staff is "paid" to sell.

Groundbeef
02-24-2008, 01:17 PM
GB, if you and I were in the same neighborhood we would both pay some kind of local tax or property tax. You may have kids in school and I don't, I may drive, you may take the bus, we both still have to pay the tax regardless. It's similar with retail, take lb's story, he got good service and took the sales person's time. If I wondered in and bought a pair of Studio 100's already know ing what I wanted, I'd have to pay the same price yet took less of the staff's time. Also, that is not the only kind of service, there is service after the sale. Being able to call and ask a question on your product or some one to assist if there's a repair issue. If enough people turned their back on sales persons as the one described by lb, the stores would go out of business and there wouldn't be a store to go have a "near home experience".

I hear you though, this type of service and mark up isn't necessary on what I'd call a commodity item. There's also things you are forced to get online. No one in my entire city carries replacement bulbs for DLP's, for instance. You know what you need for your computer so why not get the lowest price. I think we are all closer to middle than opposites on the issues we are just thinking about different sectors of the market maybe.

I just think it would be sleezy and lend to the destruction of the market though for lbgibson to go and have such a demo and then go order the speaker package online to save even a $100.00. I mean the guy was willing to come out and help set the system up for no extra charge. Even if you didn't need that service, I think it's important to patronize these types of service orientated stores. You may not need the service today, but you might some day, and I'd like that store to be there for me when I do.

Yes, I can't disagree with you. Commodity items are different than "special" items.

One last thing. Service after the sale, is sometimes MORE important than the actual sale of a product. Generally in those cases, its either a MFG warrenty repair, or an outright "repair". Any shop that gives a customer a hard time on after care is in a word "Stupid" (if the customer bought intially somewhere else-ie online or another establishment).

When I was working retail we sold equipment to contractors. There were some managers in the district who would refuse to work on equipment purchased at other stores. We sold same/similar equipment, but usually it would have our corporate brand on it, and likewise for the others.

The money made on repairs was generally higher than the actual margin on the equipment. Margins for repairs usually was around 40% with labor, margin on equipment was much less sometimes 15% for a large contractor. It would have been shortsighted for me to turn these potential future customers away. How better to showcase your service than to go the extra mile to PROVE your worth? What kind of taste do you leave in a customers mouth when you turn them away? Now if your establishment doesn't, or can't work on the equipment thats understandable. But if you do it to "spite" or punish a customer for buying eleswhere you are being penny wise and pound foolish.

I would imagine the bench charge(profit margin...not actuall $$) for repairs more than exceeds the margin on a typical sale. Once you get a foot in the door with a customer, they may feel inclined to return the favor later. Or not, but at least you got some money with them!

Mr Peabody
02-24-2008, 02:22 PM
You're right, that's why car dealers give incentives to come back to their location for service. It seems like no matter what item needs serviced the hourly rate is astronomical, so I have no doubt service surpasses sales in profitability.

As an example if I get all my service done through my dealership I am supposed to get free tires. I haven't put a pencil to it but I'm sure I probably will more than pay for those tires over the course of maintenance. Their oil changes are sometimes $10.00 higher than the discount joints. One part of me hopes as well that the dealership is more trust worthy. Foolish me.

Woochifer
02-24-2008, 02:37 PM
So the moral of this novel, until you are have experience the other side of the sale, don't put all sales reps into one category. Both were professional in their given environment/system. Some would say that Hifi House went beyond the call of duty. That's probably be true in today's big box market place. To me, that was old school. He takes his profession seriously and has gained not just a customer, but a client.

Regards.

The story you're illustrating here is exactly why Paradigm chose not to distribute through chain stores in the U.S. (in Canada, Paradigm is considered more of a mass market brand and does make their product available through regional chain stores) The quality of the product is not significantly different than the brands that national and regional specialty chains like Magnolia and Tweeter carry. But, Paradigm can project a more upscale image than some other brands because they deal only with independent stores that are known for their level of service. This might cost them some volume sales, but by staying with a network composed more of independent specialty stores, they benefit from the one-on-one service that a good retailer can provide to a brand.

Magnolia's actually pretty good with its customer service, but that applies more to the standalone locations, which are all located on the West Coast and operate somewhat differently than the Magnolia Home Theater ministores located inside of Best Buy. Those standalone locations carry more high end brands than the Best Buy locations, and the employees at those standalone stores work on commission rather than hourly. The demo rooms at the Best Buy locations are all networked through a remote switcher, whereas the demo rooms at the standalone Magnolia locations have more components that can be moved around and reconnected.

But, compared to an independent audio store, Magnolia won't grant nearly as much flexibility with the demos. That's just simply because their stores are designed to have a relatively uniform look and selection from location to location. Chain stores have certain advantages because of their buying power and ability to offer up more generous return policies, but their uniformity also limits the degree to which they can bend over backwards to suit each customer's unique needs. You can pretty much say that about any retail category.

Another change with audio retailing is simply the declining significance of component sales, and the increasing dependence on services to keep the stores in business. Magnolia's standalone stores have been getting remodeled to place more emphasis on home automation and custom installation services. My understanding is that the stores will deemphasize the demo rooms as places to hear the audio equipment, and put fewer items on display. This concept hasn't yet taken hold in their Best Buy locations, but if it proves successful with their standalone stores, no doubt the Best Buy Magnolia locations will go through a similar transition.

This is not all that different from independent specialty stores. During the home theater transition over the past decade, numerous audio stores have had to begin offering other services to stay in business. One audio store in my area now makes more of its profits from repair services, even though the majority of its floor space is still devoted to component demos. Another store began offering up full media room construction and installation services, and carry a whole assortment of higher margin accessory items such as high end room-to-room cabling and acoustic treatments. The managers I've talked to indicate that they would not stay in business if all they did was demo and sell audio equipment.

Up to this point, chain stores have maintained their profit margins largely through selling accessories and extended warranties. Now, they too are beginning to expand their range of services. Best Buy has always offered up home installation services, but now they have expanded into areas that only independent stores used to offer. Just last week, I saw a sign up in a Best Buy store that offered up ISF video calibration for $300 ($200 on a HDTV that you buy from them).

emaidel
02-24-2008, 03:54 PM
Back to the shoe example. In that case, perhaps the level of service exceeded expectations, but wasn't relevant. While telling that the initial customer left without a purchase, maybe he didn't want that level of service. What EM felt was "great" service, the first customer felt was pushy, or needy. Nothing worse than feeling pressured to buy and feeling that way because the staff is "paid" to sell.

Sorry GB, but you're way off base here. You weren't there, and I was. This customer wanted all the service he could possibly get; he tried on what seemed to be dozens of different shoes that he asked to try on and not that he was forced to do; he asked zillions of questions regarding the construction, etc. of each and every shoe he tried on; he wrote down numerous notes in a small notebook; and then, without even saying, "Thank you," left. He was in no way, shape, or anything, pressured to buy. He simply wasted the salesperson's valuable time.

What's also important about this example, is that I'm not talking about the run of the mill $40 shoe anyone can try on himself at Target, or Kohl's or DSW, but far more expensive shoes that may, or may not, be available anywhere else.

Groundbeef
02-24-2008, 04:20 PM
Sorry GB, but you're way off base here. You weren't there, and I was. This customer wanted all the service he could possibly get; he tried on what seemed to be dozens of different shoes that he asked to try on and not that he was forced to do; he asked zillions of questions regarding the construction, etc. of each and every shoe he tried on; he wrote down numerous notes in a small notebook; and then, without even saying, "Thank you," left. He was in no way, shape, or anything, pressured to buy. He simply wasted the salesperson's valuable time.

What's also important about this example, is that I'm not talking about the run of the mill $40 shoe anyone can try on himself at Target, or Kohl's or DSW, but far more expensive shoes that may, or may not, be available anywhere else.

Your right, I wasn't there. And unless you either are the said shopper, or live with said shopper, you are simply relying on what the salesman "said" was the reason the customer left. Unless you held an exit poll, it was simply speculation. Maybe he forgot his wallet. Maybe he didn't realize the expense of the shoe. Maybe he was shopping the retailer. Short of making the customer pay upfront before service, what are they going to do?

And your last statement kinda sums it up. If the shoes were NOT available elsewhere, what is the shopper gonna do? Thats the importance of selling merchandice that isn't available at a discount store. Thats how many a small retailer survive. Carve out a niche, and prosper there. You can't beat the big guys with the same old same old.

But I don't want to risk offending you, or dragging this out further. People do funny stuff. Especially when it involves money. The service you got was invaluable. I'm glad you were able to get the shoes you needed. And with your happiness, hopefully you "spread the word" and draw more customers into the shop.

ldgibson76
02-24-2008, 04:41 PM
Look guys, the bottom line is that each experience stands alone. It's all subjective. I'll sum it up with these 2 proverbs.....
"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of cheap price is forgotten."
"Men are disturbed not by things that happen, but by their opinion of the things that happen!"

Regards!

filecat13
02-24-2008, 10:38 PM
. He simply wasted the salesperson's valuable time.

In any commission-based environment, this is more significant than those of us who get paid an hourly rate or who like me have a salary can imagine. Every time one of these time and talent leeches latches onto you, you know you're doomed. One of these a$$holes can eat up the equivalent of two to four sales, yet there you are, stuck with this smug bastige who thinks he's clever and smart. He thinks he's stringing you along, playing you like a cagey trout on the end of a line, then swims under the boat and snaps off your leader, with never a good-bye or thanks. Just gone.

What he's really doing is trying to steal from you. He wants to steal your knowledge, your insight, your recommendations, and, yes, your commission. He thinks you're puke and he's caviar, and that it's tough crap that you have to smile, answer every question, trot out every bit of merchandise he has a fancy to see, and be polite and patient while he screws you out of time and commissions with customers who might actually be there to buy.

He'll screw you over just for the sake of saving sales tax, never mind the actual merchandise price. He thinks he's being smart and responsible by working you over and walking out to buy online with free shipping and no sales tax. But he's really just being a self-centered dick.

You want to know why there are fewer and fewer good audio shops around? You want to know why certain low-fi, well-advertised brands and mediocre ID brands are growing by leaps and bounds while quality marquees suffer? You want to know why people come on sites like this asking basic questions that many of us have known the answer to for 30 or 40 years (except Melvin, I guess), or why they make outrageous statements about things that we know to be untrue?

Well, many of the answers are right here in this thread.

blackraven
02-24-2008, 11:11 PM
I have to say this about BB and CC. About 7-10 years ago I would walk into BB or CC and I would be swamped by salesmen asking if they could help me. Back then there were much more sales people on the floor. But over the last few years these stores have cut back their staff and now you have to go on a search and destroy mission to find a sales person to help you. Here in minnesota where BB's home office is located, I find that BB staff is more helpful and available.

As far as prices go, if you keep checking the weekend papers for sales, you can usaully find a good sale on a HD TV if you are patient enough. I found my Sony 52" LCD XBR4 TV for $2999 with a free Sony BR player and 36 month interest free financing at CC. Unfortunately for CC, Ultimate electronics beat same offer by $100. I checked the web at that time and could not find a better deal.

pixelthis
02-25-2008, 02:00 AM
That would be me. Pix didn't like it too much though. :rolleyes:


My apologies for trying to educate a savage.

The point of all of that "blabbering" as you call it is to point out a fact, nobody gets into this at the retail level to get rich.
Most I have met love the gear, the hobby, associating with others of a like mind.
True, you cant "buy friends", if that were the case you might actually have some,
but the local audio shop is where you're most likely to find one of a like mind.
I come from the school that states this is a hobby, and the clubhouse is an audio store.
You come from it with the point of view of "where can I get the best price so I can hear helicopters explode in surround"?
In other words you will never "get" what I am talkiing about, which is sad for you.

AS FOR the nonsense ground beef is "blabbering about, of course you should pay for service.
When you have no more service you will appreciate its worth:1:

pixelthis
02-25-2008, 02:16 AM
Basically it boils down to an old saying I have always heard.
"Some know the price of everything and the value of nothing".
If you talk to a friend about a system and he fills you in, why should you pay a salesman
for what you already "know"?
WELL, WHAT IF YOU'RE "FRIEND" is a real dunderass that paid two prices for what he got?
WHAT IF THERES SOMETHING BETTER IN THE STORE?
If I listened to "friends" I'd have a Bose surround system, and probably a 30$ DVD player.
True most of the "associates" in chains are idiots, but thats why I dont go to those stores
unless I know exactly what I want, like my TV for instance.
SOME ELECTRONICS ARE COMMODITY ITEMS, but for receivers, speakers, etc you
could do with a listen and a word from somebody trained to know what hes talking about:1:

emaidel
02-25-2008, 05:09 AM
In any commission-based environment, this is more significant than those of us who get paid an hourly rate or who like me have a salary can imagine. Every time one of these time and talent leeches latches onto you, you know you're doomed. One of these a$$holes can eat up the equivalent of two to four sales, yet there you are, stuck with this smug bastige who thinks he's clever and smart. He thinks he's stringing you along, playing you like a cagey trout on the end of a line, then swims under the boat and snaps off your leader, with never a good-bye or thanks. Just gone.

What he's really doing is trying to steal from you. He wants to steal your knowledge, your insight, your recommendations, and, yes, your commission. He thinks you're puke and he's caviar, and that it's tough crap that you have to smile, answer every question, trot out every bit of merchandise he has a fancy to see, and be polite and patient while he screws you out of time and commissions with customers who might actually be there to buy.

He'll screw you over just for the sake of saving sales tax, never mind the actual merchandise price. He thinks he's being smart and responsible by working you over and walking out to buy online with free shipping and no sales tax. But he's really just being a self-centered dick.

You want to know why there are fewer and fewer good audio shops around? You want to know why certain low-fi, well-advertised brands and mediocre ID brands are growing by leaps and bounds while quality marquees suffer? You want to know why people come on sites like this asking basic questions that many of us have known the answer to for 30 or 40 years (except Melvin, I guess), or why they make outrageous statements about things that we know to be untrue?

Well, many of the answers are right here in this thread.


Well said! Well said, indeed! My hat is off to you, sir.

Groundbeef
02-25-2008, 05:29 AM
In any commission-based environment, this is more significant than those of us who get paid an hourly rate or who like me have a salary can imagine. Every time one of these time and talent leeches latches onto you, you know you're doomed. One of these a$$holes can eat up the equivalent of two to four sales, yet there you are, stuck with this smug bastige who thinks he's clever and smart. He thinks he's stringing you along, playing you like a cagey trout on the end of a line, then swims under the boat and snaps off your leader, with never a good-bye or thanks. Just gone.

What he's really doing is trying to steal from you. He wants to steal your knowledge, your insight, your recommendations, and, yes, your commission. He thinks you're puke and he's caviar, and that it's tough crap that you have to smile, answer every question, trot out every bit of merchandise he has a fancy to see, and be polite and patient while he screws you out of time and commissions with customers who might actually be there to buy.

He'll screw you over just for the sake of saving sales tax, never mind the actual merchandise price. He thinks he's being smart and responsible by working you over and walking out to buy online with free shipping and no sales tax. But he's really just being a self-centered dick.

You want to know why there are fewer and fewer good audio shops around? You want to know why certain low-fi, well-advertised brands and mediocre ID brands are growing by leaps and bounds while quality marquees suffer? You want to know why people come on sites like this asking basic questions that many of us have known the answer to for 30 or 40 years (except Melvin, I guess), or why they make outrageous statements about things that we know to be untrue?

Well, many of the answers are right here in this thread.

I would agree with many of you points.

And, I would add a caveat to them. For every commisson sale, the knife cuts both ways. Certainly you cannot argue that there are not salesman who attempt to add every bell and whistle, every "extended" warrenty, and "just the right" widget to whatever purchase you make.

Lets be realistic here. In every business there is good help, and there is bad help. Any salesman that allows himself to be strung along for an extended time period needs to learn when to cut his losses. If you are consistantly finding your time being wasted by people that "waste" your time, perhaps you ought to practice the art of an "exit".

markw
02-25-2008, 07:07 AM
Lets be realistic here. In every business there is good help, and there is bad help. Any salesman that allows himself to be strung along for an extended time period needs to learn when to cut his losses. If you are consistantly finding your time being wasted by people that "waste" your time, perhaps you ought to practice the art of an "exit".And then that customer would claim said salesperson didn't give them proper service, thereby justifying purchasing somewhere else.

So, there's no way a salesperson could win in your world, is there?

ldgibson76
02-25-2008, 09:07 AM
So, with all of this pontification can we all agree that the true Sales Professional in this genre has become an endangered species, therefore making the his or her more appreciated in today's market?! Look, I've been in high ticket sales for a very long time, from selling Mercedes-Benz to securing business to business multi-million dollar contracts. Regardless of the level of the stakes, it's all the same....perception which then leads to expectation.
If it's a commodity item, our expectations and tends to fall off for the most part. The higher the risk, the higher the expectation. It's like when "Dad" who happens to own an S-Class goes into a Ford dealer with his daughter to shop for a Focus, his expectations are relative to the price of the transaction. He knows what type of service he possibly could be subjected to. His zero tolerance sensibility for unprofessional service could soften a little. If it's at a ridiculous level, then his wrath will most likely be felt all the way up to the ownership. But when he's at the Mercedes' dealer, oh boy, that's a whole different flow! As it should be. Venturing into that area of poor service at that type of establishment would never enter into the equation. Why? Higher expectation. He expects the best and will more times than not get it! I wasn't surprised with the type of demo I received from the BB/Magnolia rep. As a matter of fact, it could be deemed as better than expected. I knew he couldn't do what the Hifi House rep could do. But, when you are spending that type of dough, unfortunately, expectations are higher.
We live in a culture that believes in the bottom line. Your pocket vs. Corporate America's bottom line! Remember this, when you go to work and you do decent job, as a matter of fact, go beyond the call of duty, although it may not happen all the time, but you do welcome some acknowledgment, either thru verbal praise, documentation or pay(bonus/raise/promotion). If you don't receive what you feel is you just due, you feel unappreciated. Different folks, same strokes. Professional salespeople/not clerks, mind you, expect the same. Yes, Corporate America has without a doubt lost sight of that and so has the American consumer. Who's to blame?! Thanks for reading my 2 cents!

Groundbeef
02-25-2008, 09:15 AM
And then that customer would claim said salesperson didn't give them proper service, thereby justifying purchasing somewhere else.

So, there's no way a salesperson could win in your world, is there?

Thats not what I said at all. Shame on you Markw.

I've been in sales, and I respect the hard work that salespeople engage in everyday. However, I draw the line when the string instruments get pulled out, and people lament about what a rough time the poor sales person has when a customer "takes up their time". BooFreakin' Whooo

There are good salespeople, and there are some that are not so good. The above example from ldgibson showcased excellent service, and what every good salesperson should do to transform a "customer" to a "client". But then again, it was a sale for 5K for some A/V equipment.

If the same salesperson exerted that kind of effort for a $129 digital camera, I'd call him a fool. Same with filecat's example, and tear jerker story about the salesguy that gets taken advantage of.

Sales persons are just that. People. And if they don't have the sense to NOT be taken advantage of, thats not my problem. A good salesperson knows when to terminate a conversation with a "loser" customer. Either excuse yourself, or ask more pointed questions. If the customer is "wasting" your time, move on. What is the difference? You don't get the sale either way, so move on. I guess in a perfect world, every interaction between a salesman, and a customer would result in a sale with the maximum commission for the salesperson.

And what about the insurance agent that sells the 80 year old infirm an "20 year annuity". Great commission for them, not so much for the 80 year old. And yet it happens every day. So what if they offer "great service", and they land a huge commisson. Should we be proud of those folks, and hold them on some lofty pedastal for all to see? I think not.

Groundbeef
02-25-2008, 09:25 AM
So, with all of this pontification can we all agree that the true Sales Professional in this genre has become an endangered species, therefore making the his or her more appreciated in today's market?! Look, I've been in high ticket sales for a very long time, from selling Mercedes-Benz to securing business to business multi-million dollar contracts. Regardless of the level of the stakes, it's all the same....perception which then leads to expectation.
If it's a commodity item, our expectations and tends to fall off for the most part. The higher the risk, the higher the expectation. It's like when "Dad" who happens to own an S-Class goes into a Ford dealer with his daughter to shop for a Focus, his expectations are relative to the price of the transaction. He knows what type of service he possibly could be subjected to. His zero tolerance sensibility for unprofessional service could soften a little. If it's at a ridiculous level, then his wrath will most likely be felt all the way up to the ownership. But when he's at the Mercedes' dealer, oh boy, that's a whole different flow! As it should be. Venturing into that area of poor service at that type of establishment would never enter into the equation. Why? Higher expectation. He expects the best and will more times than not get it! I wasn't surprised with the type of demo I received from the BB/Magnolia rep. As a matter of fact, it could be deemed as better than expected. I knew he couldn't do what the Hifi House rep could do. But, when you are spending that type of dough, unfortunately, expectations are higher.
We live in a culture that believes in the bottom line. Your pocket vs. Corporate America's bottom line! Remember this, when you go to work and you do decent job, as a matter of fact, go beyond the call of duty, although it may not happen all the time, but you do welcome some acknowledgment, either thru verbal praise, documentation or pay(bonus/raise/promotion). If you don't receive what you feel is you just due, you feel unappreciated. Different folks, same strokes. Professional salespeople/not clerks, mind you, expect the same. Yes, Corporate America has without a doubt lost sight of that and so has the American consumer. Who's to blame?! Thanks for reading my 2 cents!

I like your posts, just put in a paragraph break or 2.

I think the difference is that some people expect a higher level of service than is really required for the value of the product.

In your case, as a salesman for high end products, good salesmanship is probably NOT in the minority simply because of the expectation of the client. For others, they have gotten confused that a $100 or even a $200 product is somehow in the same class as a $5000 purchase. Its not.

If I shop a local camera shop for a $200 digital camera, I might expect more knowledgeable salesstaff simply because of the location. However, would I expect to pay more for that camera than BB simply because its in a camera shop? No, I wouldn't, nor would I pay more.

But if I were looking for the latest in Digital SLR technology, I might be willing to pay a bit more for the expert help. Then again, the price is over $1000.

Good salespeople are around. If they are REALLY good, (as in your speaker example), you don't really even think of them as a salesperson, more as partner in the purchase.

ldgibson76
02-25-2008, 09:42 AM
GB!

I knew there was a reason why I read your posts! Balance, comes to mind. Always thought provoking. And I'll try to keep my post under 50 words next time! (smile)

By the way, how's the equipment area in your HT setup coming?! And have you moved the front speakers in some?!

Regards.

ldgibson76
02-25-2008, 10:22 AM
Being that this thread was based off the poor showing and bad form of the big box chain retailers, are there any members of this forum out there that are employed by BB or CC or any other like entity that wish to counter the claims of poor service or concur with the complaints from members that were nice enough to share their unfortunate experience?! I'm very interested to hear your side of the story and what you experience from the average consumer. I think that if we have the gumption to complain, then we should at least allow the platform for rebuttal. I'm sure we all have at one time or another taken liberties with salespeople, i.e,...soaked them for info and purchase somewhere else for justified or unjustified reasons.
And if you can, try to articulate with a little professionalism! Sarcasm and insults will only lessen the credibility of your rebuttal!

Regards.

Mr Peabody
02-25-2008, 05:50 PM
I may not expect the extent of service on a lower ticket item as a more expensive one but I do expect a certain level from whatever I buy. I don't know jack about digital cameras and I'd pay $149.00 from a camera shop in order to get good advice on a purchase opposed to going to Wal-mart or BB and paying $129.00 for the same camera and making my best guess off the bullets posted on the price ticket.

This theory sometimes don't work out very well though. I wanted a lawn mower and got tired of buying a $99.00 WM special, so I went to one of those lawn and garden stores and bought me a $400.00 name brand, either Snapper or Lawn Boy, I had the guy explain all the features of the various mowers. But I've had that thing in for something minor almost every Spring. I guess that's more of a name brand vs. off brand thing though.

filecat13
02-25-2008, 08:16 PM
I would agree with many of you points.

And, I would add a caveat to them. For every commisson sale, the knife cuts both ways. Certainly you cannot argue that there are not salesman who attempt to add every bell and whistle, every "extended" warrenty, and "just the right" widget to whatever purchase you make.

Lets be realistic here. In every business there is good help, and there is bad help. Any salesman that allows himself to be strung along for an extended time period needs to learn when to cut his losses. If you are consistantly finding your time being wasted by people that "waste" your time, perhaps you ought to practice the art of an "exit".

Nice, reasonable post. I don't agree with all your points in the last paragraph, but I do recognize there is a school of selling that would support it.




I've been in sales, and I respect the hard work that salespeople engage in everyday. However, I draw the line when the string instruments get pulled out, and people lament about what a rough time the poor sales person has when a customer "takes up their time". BooFreakin' Whooo

There are good salespeople, and there are some that are not so good. The above example from ldgibson showcased excellent service, and what every good salesperson should do to transform a "customer" to a "client". But then again, it was a sale for 5K for some A/V equipment.

If the same salesperson exerted that kind of effort for a $129 digital camera, I'd call him a fool. Same with filecat's example, and tear jerker story about the salesguy that gets taken advantage of.

Sales persons are just that. People. And if they don't have the sense to NOT be taken advantage of, thats not my problem. A good salesperson knows when to terminate a conversation with a "loser" customer. Either excuse yourself, or ask more pointed questions. If the customer is "wasting" your time, move on. What is the difference? You don't get the sale either way, so move on. I guess in a perfect world, every interaction between a salesman, and a customer would result in a sale with the maximum commission for the salesperson.

And what about the insurance agent that sells the 80 year old infirm an "20 year annuity". Great commission for them, not so much for the 80 year old. And yet it happens every day. So what if they offer "great service", and they land a huge commisson. Should we be proud of those folks, and hold them on some lofty pedastal for all to see? I think not.

Not nice, unreasonable post, taking extreme positions and irrelevant tacks.

Which one of these guys are you?

blackraven
02-25-2008, 08:40 PM
The bottom line is that before the internet sales sky rocketed, BB and CC where the place to go for disounted run of the mill electronics and business was good and they had better sales people for the most part. If you wanted great service and high end audio you would go to your local Mom and Pop high end audio store. The internet age has hurt BB, CC and the Mom and Pop shops just like BB and CC took the low end audio market away from the Mom and Pop audio and video shops.

Now businesses are going out of business or cutting corners with sales people.

When I shop BB and CC now, I do my home work and know what I want to buy and dont need the opinion of a sales person. I just shake my head when I hear a sales person giving wrong or inaccurate information and advice to a customer who doesnt know any better.

ldgibson76
02-25-2008, 09:09 PM
The bottom line is that before the internet sales sky rocketed, BB and CC where the place to go for disounted run of the mill electronics and business was good and they had better sales people for the most part. If you wanted great service and high end audio you would go to your local Mom and Pop high end audio store. The internet age has hurt BB, CC and the Mom and Pop shops just like BB and CC took the low end audio market away from the Mom and Pop audio and video shops.

Now businesses are going out of business or cutting corners with sales people.

When I shop BB and CC now, I do my home work and know what I want to buy and dont need the opinion of a sales person. I just shake my head when I hear a sales person giving wrong or inaccurate information and advice to a customer who doesnt know any better.

I concur!

emaidel
02-26-2008, 05:23 AM
What most of us are talking about here is a matter of degree: how much service is worth paying a higher price, and how much higher a price are we willing to pay? Like another poster, I would readily pay $149 for a camera someone took the time to explain to me (assuming I knew nothing about the camera in the first place) than pay $129 for the same camera somewhere else without any assistance whatsoever. And, I would never take the salesperson's time at the first establishment to find out all I could about that camera, then leave and purchase it for less elsewhere.

Of course, no one is blameless in these scenarios. Retailers who don't police their return policies are simply asking to be abused. Just as an example, my wife has a very dear friend who seems to make it her life's goal to do little other than "buy, and return" just about everything. Recently, this woman had owned a Mr. Coffee coffeemaker, and had used it for a period of over 4 years. Then, the pot started to leak. My feelings, and I suspect, those of most of you reading this, would be that the pot served its lifetime (it only cost $35 to begin with), and it's now time to throw it out and buy a new one.

Not my wife's friend, though. She actually took it to Linens 'n Things, who'll take back just about anything, even if it's not in a box, or accompanied by a receipt. Not only did Linens 'n Things take back this 4 year-old coffee pot, but gave a refund of the highest price for which the pot ever sold, which was $69.95!

So, who was wrong? My wife's friend, or the retailer? In my estimation, both. Linens 'n Things was just plain stupid in refunding the money they did, and my wife's friend simply mercilessly abused their generous return policy (she didn't even purchase the pot there in the first place!).

Service is also often grossly overpriced in and of itself. I own a Mercedes, and do my very best to avoid the Mercedes dealer for servicing, since they charge outrageous amounts for just about anything. A "120,000-mile checkup," in which the only major work done was a transmission fluid, and oil change (everything else was just "check" this, and "Check" that) cost me a whopping $750!

I've been fortunate enough to find a local shop that specializes in Mercedes and BMW's, and does excellent work. They're still a good deal more expensive than any chain, though a lot cheaper than the Mercedes dealership. But they know their products. No, they don't offer me a loaner car, nor can I help myself to bagels, cream cheese and coffee in the morning, nor do they wash my car when they're done. Those are all nice touches, but oh my, are they ever expensive!

Feanor
02-26-2008, 06:42 AM
What most of us are talking about here is a matter of degree: how much service is worth paying a higher price, and how much higher a price are we willing to pay? Like another poster, I would readily pay $149 for a camera someone took the time to explain to me (assuming I knew nothing about the camera in the first place) than pay $129 for the same camera somewhere else without any assistance whatsoever....

Increasingly today we rely on Internet and pulications to obtain product information. Today I rarely need product info from sales people. What's more, I never have trusted info from sales staff, (with a very few exceptions). They and their bosses are very self-serving.

The sort of service I do look for is selection, price, ease of ordering, shipping terms, and return policy. In that regard, though I hate, loath, and dispise the typical ignorance and rudness of BestBuy and Future Shop staff, they do have relatively good selection and return policies.

I don't frequent my local hi-fi dealer despite the fact that he has a great selection of products for our small-city market. Though knowledgable, he is an opinionated bass-turd whose opinions I neither agree with nor trust.

ldgibson76
02-26-2008, 08:29 AM
Hello to all!

This thread has really hits home because I'm in Sales, and I work hard to maintain the level of professionalism my clients demand. Yes, as I said before, each situation is subjective, but, the ideal of customer service is at the mercy of one's interpretation of what customer service is or should be. Ask 100 people what proper customer service is and you'll get 100 different descriptions! It really comes down to what's at stake.

Because of my profession, I understand that I deal with a completely different market so it's unfair for me to use my sales experience as an example when it comes to commenting on the selling of commodity-type consumer electronics. So yesterday, I was compelled to visit the Best Buy where I auditioned the Vienna's. The Magnolia Rep who gave the demo, was present and he seemed pleased to see me again. I guess he thought I was coming to purchase the Mozart Pkg.
I say this because when I started our conversation with "Thank you for taking the time to demonstrate the speakers", his smile left because he then realized I was there to inform him that I chose the Paradigms. After I explained to him why, he seemed somewhat deflated, but that told me that to him, it wasn't about the commission, even though Mag. Reps are salaried, he honestly thought he had the better product and thought he convinced me of that very opinion. Guys, that's passion for what you do and believe in. Yes, it would have looked good selling a 5K speaker package, but I know how this guy felt.

Being that he had some time on his hands, I struck up a conversation about this very forum and the opinions and views that had been expressed about the box store Customer Service mentality. He acknowledged that the level of Cust Svc. has fallen, but he finds that most customers today are more educated and informed, because of the information that is now available. And please do not confused the Mag reps with the "blue shirts!" That's what you get when the $ becomes more important than how the $ is earned! There's a difference.(That's subjective) He told me that he used to work at the soon to be defunct Tweeter and he is amazed by how much the consumer today thinks he or she knows. Some are so misinformed, that they can't get out of their own way so they can have a pleasant buying experience.(I've experienced that before!) He claimed that at Tweeter, training was a little more intensive than at Best Buy/Magnolia. So his perspective on this topic may be little skewed. Why? The dude appears to be in his 30's. Maturity....So he seems to have an appreciation for the old school way of doing things. In other words, unlike a lot of his colleagues he understands the psychology behind customer and vendor interaction which makes for a more tolerable experience for the customer and the rep for that matter.

Overall, he agreed with most of what was said in this thread. (I had my laptop with me so the Geek Squad could increase my ram to 4 gigs, and I opened up AudioReview.com so he could read the threads). It was interesting to say the least.

I know this is only one Magnolia Rep, and he may be the anomaly. But, contrary to popular belief, there are still some good reps out there in the Big Box stores. You just have to be fortunate enough to run into one, better yet, once you do, be able to recognize that you have and not abuse or squander the opportunity to have a good experience where you thought none could be had!

Regards.

filecat13
02-26-2008, 08:35 AM
bass-turd .


TURNERS FALLS, Massachusetts (AP) - Rescuers cut through a filtration tank filled with dense fish feces to reach four workers who fell into the sludgy dung Friday while cleaning the 18-foot tank at a western Massachusetts farm.

The workers became trapped for 45 minutes after a bracket holding a plastic filtration pad collapsed as they stood on it to clean the fiberglass tank at the Australis Aquaculture fish farm

One of the farmhands was submerged beneath what Dion described as a sand-and-feces mix, while the other three had their heads above the sludge, he said.

Goldman said the workers and the pad, which collects bacteria created by fish urine and feces, like some household aquarium filters, fell to the bottom of the tank.

"Everybody's present and accounted for," Goldman said. "A couple of the guys even came back to say hi."

Dion said rescue workers cut a hole in the side of the tank and then slashed through the feces mix until they were able to pull out the workers, Dion said.

"It was very slimy and it was heavy," he said. "Never seen anything like it in my life."

The worker who became submerged in the feces was airlifted to Bay State Medical Center in Springfield, but was talking with paramedics and did not appear to have life-threatening injuries, Dion said. The other three were taken by ambulance to a local hospital with minor injuries.

I hate it when that happens, either at a fish farm or in a hi-fi store. :crazy:

Groundbeef
02-26-2008, 08:45 AM
I hate it when that happens, either at a fish farm or in a hi-fi store. :crazy:

Now thats just nasty. I have a small fish pond (900 gallon) and I have to clean the filter once a week (twice in the summer!) and it's just gross.

emaidel
02-26-2008, 09:12 AM
I never have trusted info from sales staff, (with a very few exceptions). They and their bosses are very self-serving.

.


As one whose career was exclusively in sales, either on the retail floor, or from the manufacturer's position, I find such a statement highly offensive and insulting. True, there are plenty of dishonest salespeople out there, and the used-car salesman usually takes the prize for the least honest and most sleazy. As for the rest of us who made a conscious effort to know all we could about the products were were selling, and how they compared to that of the competition so we could provide our customers an informed buying decision, to so callously lump us in the same group as the used car slimebag isn't only demeaning, it's also just plain wrong.

Your comment was really uncalled for.

Feanor
02-26-2008, 09:30 AM
As one whose career was exclusively in sales, either on the retail floor, or from the manufacturer's position, I find such a statement highly offensive and insulting. True, there are plenty of dishonest salespeople out there, and the used-car salesman usually takes the prize for the least honest and most sleazy. As for the rest of us who made a conscious effort to know all we could about the products were were selling, and how they compared to that of the competition so we could provide our customers an informed buying decision, to so callously lump us in the same group as the used car slimebag isn't only demeaning, it's also just plain wrong.

Your comment was really uncalled for.

As I said, emaidel, there have been a few exceptions, and I certainly wasn't directing my comments at you personally. But this is the nature of trust: one might say "a few bad apples ruin the barrel". Or the bad salesmen ruin it for the good salesmen.

I'm sorry that you took my remarks personally; as person of maturity, I hope you will accept that I didn't mean them that way. However I don't withdraw them as a general statement. Ultimately it's just part of the old principle, cui bono. In general people behave in accordance with the way they perceive their own self-interest -- sometimes all too short-sightedly.

Feanor
02-26-2008, 09:42 AM
Hello to all!

This thread has really hits home because I'm in Sales, and I work hard to maintain the level of professionalism my clients demand.
...
But, contrary to popular belief, there are still some good reps out there in the Big Box stores. You just have to be fortunate enough to run into one, better yet, once you do, be able to recognize that you have and not abuse or squander the opportunity to have a good experience where you thought none could be had!

Regards.

Certainly not sales staff are bad, not even at BestBuy. There I find that at least one in four who is at least pleasant and/or somewhat knowledgable. Yes, I know that some customers are idiots all the time, and all customers are idiots some of the time, (me included), but that's the nature of the salesperson's challenge.

But as I said to emaidel, a few bad apples spoil the barrel. The my level of expectations of sales staff in big-box store especially has sunk very, very low.

GMichael
02-26-2008, 09:47 AM
I went into a CC a few years ago to give an HK receiver a listen to. The Sales guy told me that I was too old to need any hi-fi equipment and that I should just get a Bose system. They haven't seen me since. BB is not a whole lot better though.

filecat13
02-26-2008, 11:03 AM
I went into a CC a few years ago to give an HK receiver a listen to. The Sales guy told me that I was too old to need any hi-fi equipment and that I should just get a Bose system. They haven't seen me since. BB is not a whole lot better though.

My reaction in an instance like that: :mad5: :incazzato: :dita:


You must be really old.

GMichael
02-26-2008, 11:16 AM
My reaction in an instance like that: :mad5: :incazzato: :dita:


You must be really old.

44 at the time. I was shocked at first. When he tried to show me the Bose system I laughed and walked away.

Oh yeah.. Bite me!

emaidel
02-26-2008, 11:39 AM
I'm sorry that you took my remarks personally; as person of maturity, I hope you will accept that I didn't mean them that way.

I guess I'm a little too thin-skinned at times.

I probably should be less defensive, given the fact that throughout this industry's heydays (late 70's - mid 80's) a national poll was taken with American consumers asking them to rate salespeople from worst to best. The worst, to no one's surprise, was a used car salesman. I don't remember who was the best, but the second worst was an audio salesman in a stereo shop! And, as I watched in horror as I saw the manner in which so many of these folks sold the stuff I did, I couldn't help but agree.

Groundbeef
02-26-2008, 02:19 PM
I went into a CC a few years ago to give an HK receiver a listen to. The Sales guy told me that I was too old to need any hi-fi equipment and that I should just get a Bose system. They haven't seen me since. BB is not a whole lot better though.

Hey, I guess you don't know quality even if it slaps you across the face. Whats wrong with his advice? Other than CC reps are commission, and Bose carries a hefty margin, hence bigger paycheck?

When did you become anti-worker? He has a family too feed, and a boat to pay for.:mad2:

Groundbeef
02-26-2008, 02:21 PM
My reaction in an instance like that: :mad5: :incazzato: :dita:


You must be really old.

Hey, GM isn't all that old! I mean, at the Christmas Party, he only had to wear his oxygen tank for the last 2/3rds of the party. And he only used his "Little Rascal" scooter moving from the kitchen to his "home theater". I must confess the Bose 2.1 system was impressive..

GMichael
02-26-2008, 02:23 PM
Hey, I guess you don't know quality even if it slaps you across the face. Whats wrong with his advice? Other than CC reps are commission, and Bose carries a hefty margin, hence bigger paycheck?

When did you become anti-worker? He has a family too feed, and a boat to pay for.:mad2:

Are you trying to blame me for putting all those mustard workers out of business? Next thing you know, you'll blame me for global warming too.

GMichael
02-26-2008, 02:28 PM
Hey, GM isn't all that old! I mean, at the Christmas Party, he only had to wear his oxygen tank for the last 2/3rds of the party. And he only used his "Little Rascal" scooter moving from the kitchen to his "home theater". I must confess the Bose 2.1 system was impressive..

That's it. I'm taking back my remote!

Groundbeef
02-26-2008, 02:59 PM
Are you trying to blame me for putting all those mustard workers out of business? Next thing you know, you'll blame me for global warming too.

Judging from the amount of farts you blew out at the party, I'd say your doing your part.

Smokey
02-26-2008, 03:20 PM
Whats wrong with his advice? Other than CC reps are commission, and Bose carries a hefty margin, hence bigger paycheck?

When did you become anti-worker? He has a family too feed, and a boat to pay for.:mad2:

Sometimes salespersons are really not to blame as it might be store policy to push hi profit margin items. Bose, Monster cables and [especially] extended warranty fall into that category. Push those lines, or don’t get paid!

Groundbeef
02-26-2008, 04:12 PM
Sometimes salespersons are really not to blame as it might be store policy to push hi profit margin items. Bose, Monster cables and [especially] extended warranty fall into that category. Push those lines, or don’t get paid!

The response had less to do with salespeople, and more to do with Bose, and GM.

But to your point, unless your working the cashier at the ole' Dollar General, isn't the goal (in general) of any retailer to sell the most product that brings in the higher margin? No one gets paid if consumers only buy APEX or other low end products at BB do they?

Smokey
02-26-2008, 06:01 PM
But to your point, unless your working the cashier at the ole' Dollar General, isn't the goal (in general) of any retailer to sell the most product that brings in the higher margin? No one gets paid if consumers only buy APEX or other low end products at BB do they?

That is true. But selling only products that have higher profit margin doesn't necessary bring in customers either. So sell low end products to bring in customers, and then hit them with accessories that offer higher profit margin. It is the oldest retail trick in the world (at least before the internet :D).

ldgibson76
02-26-2008, 06:07 PM
That is true. But selling only products that have higher profit margin doesn't necessary bring in customers either. So sell low end products to bring in customers, and then hit them with accessories that offer higher profit margin. It is the oldest retail trick in the world (at least before the internet :D).

"Just when you think we've created a little credibility for the salesperson, someone drags the profession back into the pits of sleazium!" :mad2:

tony_abreu
03-08-2008, 08:15 AM
I stopped at Circuit City on my way to pick my parents from the airport (I was at work). Instead of waiting at the airport, I decided to stop at CC on my way, and check out some CDs and DVDs. I decided to ask one of the associates for the section for SACD and DVD-Audio. She looked at me as if I was asking her about some rockets components or parts. I then went to the audio section to see the name brans that they carry, its been like six year since my last visit to a CC store. I saw some turntable, and I asked another of the store associate, if they carry stylus cleaner. the poor kid didn't have a clue, and sent me to the other side of the store where I didn't find nothing.
I asked one more time to a third associate about both item (cleaner and SACD) and again he didn't have no clue, sending me to another section of the store.
Horrible experience saved only by the finding, in the DVD section, of a Mahavishnu Orchestra DVD (double disc "Live at Montreux 1974 & 1984") and Frank Zappa's Apostrophe & Overnight sensation (Classic Albums DVD series).

Regards,