$1.4K to $1.6K Budget for New Integrated or New Amp/Preamp Combo

[Ajani]

Ok, please bear with me... I'm in the very very very slow process of rebuilding my 2 channel setup... so I'm looking for components to audition over the next few weeks/months..... though I was originally considering a Krell KAV400xi or NAD Masters M3, I decided it was best to lower my budget (I'm too impatient to save up for the Krell + the import duties will be a pain in the....).... So now, I'm considering a budget of Between $1.4K to $1.6K for either a new Integrated or a new Amp/Preamp Combo... So far I've come up with these candidates:

NAD C162 Pre + C272 Amp = $1.4K (Ugly)
Anthem TLP1 Pre + PV2 Amp = $1.45K (Has a built in tuner)
Rotel RC-1070 Pre + RB-1080 Amp = $1.5K (Has the most power + I used to own this setup before I migrated)
Cambridge Audio 840A Integrated = $1.5K
Musical Fidelity XT100 = $1.5K (Sounds amazing but has lowest power rating)
PS Audio Trio C100 = $1.6K (Really Small)
Creek Classic = $1.6K
Parasound Halo P3 Pre + A23 Amp = $1.65K (Best looking of the lot + I can get it for $1.5K)

If there are any other strong contenders that you can think of, please let me know and feel free to comment on any of the brands I've listed above. Oh I'll be using it in a medium to large room with either Monitor Audio or Revel Speakers (yeah I know those brands sound totally different)....

[blackraven]

Buy what sounds the best and will meet your power requirements for your speakers and any future upgrades in speakers. Thats a good list. The new Cambridge unit is supposed to be very good, but you might want to go with separates for more flexibility.

[Mr Peabody]

Good list, if possible I'd say some auditioning is in order.

On the top of my list would be the Parasound, separates would lend to easier future upgrades and Parasound is my pick of separates on your list. Next would be the PS Audio, I wouldn't worry about the size, they were purposely designed like that and the Creek, good sound in my opinion.

[Ajani]

Buy what sounds the best and will meet your power requirements for your speakers and any future upgrades in speakers. Thats a good list. The new Cambridge unit is supposed to be very good, but you might want to go with separates for more flexibility.

Thanks.... I've actually auditioned a number of them already, only problem is that they were on diferent speakers in different shops (as I can't find one dealer with all/even most of those brands + the speakers I like).... :(

So I'm still stuck with either a bit of guessing what will sound amazing together or buying from the limited options of pairings I've heard together...

I imagine the Rotels combined with Revels should be a really good pairing based on my experience with both products seperately.... on the other hand I've heard a Musical Fidelity/Monitor Audio pairing that sounded amazing (so that maybe my default choice If I don't feel adventurous, when it's time to buy)....

Oh and I agree that seperates do add quit a bit of flexibility later on.....

[Ajani]

Good list, if possible I'd say some auditioning is in order.

On the top of my list would be the Parasound, separates would lend to easier future upgrades and Parasound is my pick of separates on your list. Next would be the PS Audio, I wouldn't worry about the size, they were purposely designed like that and the Creek, good sound in my opinion.

Parasound huh? They have been intriguing me for some time, I've heard so much about them and finally found a nearby island that has them (for a good price too)... I'm anxious to audition them... The store also has Revel speakers which is a plus, but unfortunately no Monitor Audio speakers....

I've never heard PS Audio or Creek but have read many good reviews about them.... The tough part about either of those two is that I'd have to order them over the internet, as I haven't found any nearby dealers...

Thanks for the reply.

[basite]

the parasound would get my choice.

exellent products for their price, and more flexibility. if you're going for Monitor Audio, and you don't feel like trying things out, the no-risk option would be musical fidelity (Monitor Audio uses them to evaluate/ test their speakers), I found them them sounding good too with Denon though, especially their higher 'classed' products (new integrated amps, only available in Europe and Asia though...)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

the parasound would get my choice.

exellent products for their price, and more flexibility. if you're going for Monitor Audio, and you don't feel like trying things out, the no-risk option would be musical fidelity (Monitor Audio uses them to evaluate/ test their speakers), I found them them sounding good too with Denon though, especially their higher 'classed' products (new integrated amps, only available in Europe and Asia though...)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Cool! That's an interesting bit of information..... Makes sense given how good the Monitor Audio/Musical Fidelity pairing I heard sounded....

EDIT: I found the link to where they mention using MF for testing on the Monitor Audio website...

Thanks or the input....

Based on what I've auditioned and the responses I've received... I'm leaning towards either a Monitor Audio/Musical Fidelity pairing or a Revel/Parasound pairing... But I'll still check out some of the other amps and also the new B&W 600 Series speakers with Rotels.... after I do my auditioning I'll update this thread with my findings (in case anyone else is considering similar setups)....

[basite]

Cool! That's an interesting bit of information..... Makes sense given how good the Monitor Audio/Musical Fidelity pairing I heard sounded....

EDIT: I found the link to where they mention using MF for testing on the Monitor Audio website...

Thanks or the input....

Based on what I've auditioned and the responses I've received... I'm leaning towards either a Monitor Audio/Musical Fidelity pairing or a Revel/Parasound pairing... But I'll still check out some of the other amps and also the new B&W 600 Series speakers with Rotels.... after I do my auditioning I'll update this thread with my findings (in case anyone else is considering similar setups)....


what monitor audio's are you looking at btw?

[Mr Peabody]

Ajani you have had Rotel before so you know their character, I was wondering when you audition other gear if you notice it having a bit faster pace than the Rotel? You should be taking the same discs with you on your auditions. My reference sound was from Krell or Arcam, so when I put the discs I was familiar with into an all Rotel system driving B&W the music sounded laid back to the point of seemingly having a slower pace or feel. I haven't heard MF to know if it differed from Rotel that much. If you can audition the Parasound you should give it a try, I'm sure the distinction would be noticed there if you were to pick up on the same thing I did.

[Ajani]

what monitor audio's are you looking at btw?

My ideal would be a pair of Gold Series 20s.... I heard a pair of them driven by a Musical Fidelity XT100 (in a small room) and it sounded like the heavens cracked open and music rained down upon me (Ok... maybe that's a 'bit' of an exaggeration, but it still remains the best setup I've heard).... But depending on how good the Silver RS6 sound in direct comparison with the GS0, I might save the extra $2k and just get the RS6...

[Monkey Mouse]

I picked up the Rotel integrated for my dad this past christmas - seperates are more of the same sound, but more power. Sounds excellent driving a pair of Vandersteen 1Cs.

I would suggest you look at the Rogue Cronus integrated amp - $1,800 but gives you that tube sound that the others can't touch. Comes with a phono pre (most others do not) - 55wpc though.

[Ajani]

I picked up the Rotel integrated for my dad this past christmas - seperates are more of the same sound, but more power. Sounds excellent driving a pair of Vandersteen 1Cs.

I agree with that statement, based on my comparisons of the Rotel Integrated and their seperates... But an extra 6 decibels are pretty useful in a larger room....


I would suggest you look at the Rogue Cronus integrated amp - $1,800 but gives you that tube sound that the others can't touch. Comes with a phono pre (most others do not) - 55wpc though.

I've never tried the Rogue (I'll try to see if they have a nearby dealer)... Have you compared it with the Musical Fidelity XT100? Since MF uses tubes as well...

[Ajani]

Ajani you have had Rotel before so you know their character, I was wondering when you audition other gear if you notice it having a bit faster pace than the Rotel? You should be taking the same discs with you on your auditions. My reference sound was from Krell or Arcam, so when I put the discs I was familiar with into an all Rotel system driving B&W the music sounded laid back to the point of seemingly having a slower pace or feel. I haven't heard MF to know if it differed from Rotel that much. If you can audition the Parasound you should give it a try, I'm sure the distinction would be noticed there if you were to pick up on the same thing I did.

I can't say I've really noticed anything slow about Rotel's pace, but I haven't heard any Krell's yet and though I've heard a Rotel Integrated/Arcam CD setup I've never heard the two brands directly compared against each other.... In terms of pacing, I've found the MF/MA combo to be fast, better than my Rotel/Mission combo or the Rotel/B&W combos I heard....

I'll definitely audition the Parasound before deciding on a combo.... I've read way too many good reviews for Parasound not to at least try one out....

[basite]

My ideal would be a pair of Gold Series 20s.... I heard a pair of them driven by a Musical Fidelity XT100 (in a small room) and it sounded like the heavens cracked open and music rained down upon me (Ok... maybe that's a 'bit' of an exaggeration, but it still remains the best setup I've heard).... But depending on how good the Silver RS6 sound in direct comparison with the GS0, I might save the extra $2k and just get the RS6...


the MA GS20's (and especially the 60's) are much better than the B&W 600 series IMO....

Monitor Audio have earned their 'nickname' 'a poor man's avalon' for something...

they are fast, very detailed, exellent depth and soundstage and with a really good defenition.

I think you should be looking at B&W 804S's to do better.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

the MA GS20's (and especially the 60's) are much better than the B&W 600 series IMO....

Monitor Audio have earned their 'nickname' 'a poor man's avalon' for something...

they are fast, very detailed, exellent depth and soundstage and with a really good defenition.

I think you should be looking at B&W 804S's to do better.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

I've heard B&W's latest CM, 700 and 800 lines.... all were too Bright for my liking (well I liked the sound for the most part, but experienced listening fatigue within half an hour or less with each)... but I am interested to hear the new 600 Series to see if they will have the same effect on me....

I would only consider the 600 series If I decide on the Monitor Audio RS6 or Revel Concerta F12.... if I stay with the MA GS20/60 & Revel Perfoma F32 price range then I'll totally ignore the B&W line....

[Feanor]

Ok, please bear with me... I'm in the very very very slow process of rebuilding my 2 channel setup... so I'm looking for components to audition over the next few weeks/months..... though ....

I'd like to hear one of these XINDAK XA-6950 (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1206041199). Supposedly 100wpc pure Class A. :eek6:

[abel]

I'd like to hear one of these XINDAK XA-6950 (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1206041199). Supposedly 100wpc pure Class A. :eek6:

wow Xindak is from china but sound not bad :)

[abel]

I'd like to hear one of these XINDAK XA-6950 (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1206041199). Supposedly 100wpc pure Class A. :eek6:

Xindak is from china sound not bad :)

[Ajani]

I'd like to hear one of these XINDAK XA-6950 (http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1206041199). Supposedly 100wpc pure Class A. :eek6:

Looks cool but should be really inefficient....

My only major hangup with buying products I haven't heard about, is the question of reliability.... I might try it out in the store and it sounds great, but will it last? At least with the major brands, I can check out customer reviews on this site/other sites to get an idea of the product's reliability....

[Monkey Mouse]

I agree with that statement, based on my comparisons of the Rotel Integrated and their seperates... But an extra 6 decibels are pretty useful in a larger room....

I've never tried the Rogue (I'll try to see if they have a nearby dealer)... Have you compared it with the Musical Fidelity XT100? Since MF uses tubes as well...
An extra 6db would mean you either need to get about 4x the power you have now, 3db of increased speaker efficiency with 2x the power or 6db more efficient speakers (unlikely).

Never compared Rogue to the MF gear as no dealer close by has both brands. Check out the Rogue Audio website for your local dealers.

[Ajani]

An extra 6db would mean you either need to get about 4x the power you have now, 3db of increased speaker efficiency with 2x the power or 6db more efficient speakers (unlikely).

Re: the 6 db, I was refering to the Difference between the RB1080 (200 watts) and the RA1062 Integrated (60 watts).... Though I realize that my math was off... since 4 x 60 = 240 watts... :(


Never compared Rogue to the MF gear as no dealer close by has both brands. Check out the Rogue Audio website for your local dealers.

Thanks, I'll check out their site....

[audio amateur]

You could get a Roksan Kandy Mark 3 for that price. It boasts around 120 into 8 ohms and almost double that into 4.
The cambridge looks nice.. Has a good power rating too

[Ajani]

Ok, thanks to everyone for their suggestions so far...

Based on the availability of nearby suppliers (specifically ones that carry the speakers I intend to purchase) and internet suppliers (in case I feel like taking a chance) I've narrowed my options down to the following:

1) Musical Fidelity XT-100 (Only 50 Watts and no biamp option, but has the matching XDAC V8 with USB input for my computer)
2) PS Audio Trio C100 (100 Watts + keeps it simple (only 3 inputs) + can be biamped with matching A100 amp to give 200 Watts + has mathing DLIII USB DAC!!!)
3) Parasound Halo P3/A23 Combo (125 Watts + Can be biamped with another A23 to give 250 Watts + Looks Sweet, however has no matching DAC, so I'd probably have to use a Benchmark DAC1 USB...)
4) Creek Classic (90 Watts + can be biamped with matching Classic amp to give 180 Watts + has passive preamp (which I love, in theory anyway) + I would probably buy this just so I could hear what that guy in Stereophile was raving about (he combined the Monitor Audio RS6 with the Creek Classic), however has no matching DAC, so I'd probably have to use a Benchmark DAC1 USB...)
.
I dropped Revel and B&W from my speaker options and am going to get either the Monitor Audio GS20 or RS6.... From what I've experienced and/or read on the net, all of the 4 options above should be good matches for the Monitor Audio Speakers....

[audio amateur]

Have you given a go at the BW 683's?
How 'bout the the RS8's?

[Ajani]

Have you given a go at the BW 683's?
How 'bout the the RS8's?

I haven't heard the 683's, but I expect them to sound similar to the 800/CM Series which I have auditioned extensively.... so based on that I don't expect to prefer them to the Monitor Audio's... though if I get the chance I'll audition them anyway....

I've done and A/B comparison between the RS8 and the RS6 and the only difference I heard was more aggressive bass response on the RS8....

[basite]

Ajani, ever thought of getting a secondhand bigger Musical Fidelity unit? or a new one, just a bigger one?

[Ajani]

Ajani, ever thought of getting a secondhand bigger Musical Fidelity unit? or a new one, just a bigger one?

Those are good options...

The new model would be the A5.5, which would cost me double the XT100 but would give me 250 watts and a USB input!!! So essentially it would cost me what I eventually might spend on the XT100/XDAC V8 combo.... only problem is that I'd have to spend all of that at one time, instead of spacing it out over time.... and in case I buy the Monitor Audio RS6 now instead of the GS20's, I'd feel like a tool to spend nearly $3K on an amp and just $1k on speakers... it'd probably be better to reverse that and buy say a Cambridge Audio 740A and the GS20's....

A used A3.5 or A5 would be great, but I'm not in a major city (or even country for that matter) at this point... so I wouldn't be able to inspect the products before buying and I'd have to trust them to handle international shipping... So used isn't appealing to me...

I wish MF still produced the A3.5.... Who's idea was it to drop that product and produce these whimpy little amps (XT100 and A1) instead? :(

[Mr Peabody]

I think I'd rather take my chances with a 50 wpc MF than go with the Cambridge.

Which country are you in, Ajani?

[Ajani]

I think I'd rather take my chances with a 50 wpc MF than go with the Cambridge.

LOL.... me too.... I've heard Monitor Audio with both entry level Cambridge Audio and NAD products and wasn't impressed... so even though the 740 and 840 cost a lot more, I just don't have very much faith that they will be that much better than their entry level models....


Which country are you in, Ajani?

St. Kitts....

[Mr Peabody]

First, question, how do you feel about uninvited house guests? :)

You seem to have pretty good access to equipment there, where are the shops located? I wouldn't think all there or else the island would have a unusually large hi fi community. I won't side track the thread any more but it is interesting the diversity we get here and that's great. It also helps us to get different perspectives on things. What I find fascinating is if we didn't show where we are all from, I think we'd assume from our own area or country because even though we may have some cultural differences the hobby is where our focus is on the board.

[Ajani]

First, question, how do you feel about uninvited house guests? :)

You seem to have pretty good access to equipment there, where are the shops located? I wouldn't think all there or else the island would have a unusually large hi fi community. I won't side track the thread any more but it is interesting the diversity we get here and that's great. It also helps us to get different perspectives on things. What I find fascinating is if we didn't show where we are all from, I think we'd assume from our own area or country because even though we may have some cultural differences the hobby is where our focus is on the board.

First off, guests are always welcome... especially after I get my stereo setup....

Secondly, there are no good shops here (not even up to best buy standard :( ), but nearby in St. Maarten there's at least one good shop and several shops in Puerto Rico....

[audio amateur]

You can tell by spelling etc if they are not from an english speaking country. They could be kids as well (Sgtbass anyone?)
Yes it's nice to have diversity. Most of the forum posters are american however.

Ajani, I would personally spend more on speakers than anything else. I would definitely get GS20's over RS6's and cut down on the amp etc.. I bet a 740a would do a pretty good job;)
It doesn't have the balanced inputs though, unlike the 840. But then the 840 is more expensive. If i'm not wrong the GS20's are fairly efficient, so you don't really need 200+ watts. Let me tell you, my speakers are 84dB/2.83v efficiency (not good at all in my opinion), powered by 10 watts. At normal to good listening levels, they fill my (small room-14 by 10 feet) pretty well.
I would imagine you'll be fine with 50watts+ in a normal/large room with those speakers, unless you want to blast them.

[audio amateur]

First, question, how do you feel about uninvited house guests? :)
haha:yikes:

[Ajani]

...............

Ajani, I would personally spend more on speakers than anything else. I would definitely get GS20's over RS6's and cut down on the amp etc.. I bet a 740a would do a pretty good job;)
It doesn't have the balanced inputs though, unlike the 840. But then the 840 is more expensive. If i'm not wrong the GS20's are fairly efficient, so you don't really need 200+ watts. Let me tell you, my speakers are 84dB/2.83v efficiency (not good at all in my opinion), powered by 10 watts. At normal to good listening levels, they fill my (small room-14 by 10 feet-pretty well).
I would imagine you'll be fine with 50watts+ in a normal/large room with those speakers, unless you want to blast them.

Right now I'm considering basically a 50/50 budget of around $3K for amp and speakers.... so essentially a Monitor Audio RS8 ($1.5K) + Musical Fidelity XT100 ($1.5K).... Since I don't need the extra bass response of the RS8, I can shave $500 off the cost by getting the RS6 instead... So that has me spending just $2.5K....

If I buy the GS20s that's a straight $3K.... so anything I pair them with will go over the budget....

Either way I'm going to have to eventually do some upgrading though. So, I thought I might just go for a nice setup of 50/50 and eventually move the 2 channel rig to a smaller dedicated room... buy some GS20s to combine with either the Musical Fidelity XT-100, Creek Classic, PS Audio Trio or Parasound Halo and keep the RS6 for Home-Theatre duty in the Living Room (and buy a cheapo AV Receiver)..... Or Keep the GS20 in the Living Room and Combine the RS6 with an entry level NAD/Cambridge Audio as a bedroom setup.....

Anyway, I guess I've got lots of time to figure out what I'm doing.....

[Feanor]

Ok, please bear with me... I'm in the very very very slow process of rebuilding my 2 channel setup... so I'm looking for components to audition over the next few weeks/months..... though I was originally considering a Krell KAV400xi or NAD Masters M3, I decided it was best to lower my budget (I'm too impatient to save up for the Krell + the import duties will be a pain in the....).... So now, I'm considering a budget of Between $1.4K to $1.6K for either a new Integrated or a new Amp/Preamp Combo ....

I tend agree with Mr. P that my short list would be the Parasound and the PS Audio C-100. It is interesting how different these two are for about the same money. Certainly the Parasound has a strong edge for flexibility, but I wouldn't be surprised if the PS Audio is a bit more detailed and transparent.

If you are willing to buy used the Krell and NAD Master M3 would just about fall into your price range. There again I'd bet significantly different sound: the Krell perhaps more dynamic and neutral; the NAD relatively warm.

By the way, I would be looking at 100+wpc to ensure flexibility of speaker choice going forward.

[Ajani]

I tend agree with Mr. P that my short list would be the Parasound and the PS Audio C-100. It is interesting how different these two are for about the same money. Certainly the Parasound has a strong edge for flexibility, but I wouldn't be surprised if the PS Audio is a bit more detailed and transparent.

If you are willing to buy used the Krell and NAD Master M3 would just about fall into your price range. There again I'd bet significantly different sound: the Krell perhaps more dynamic and neutral; the NAD relatively warm.

By the way, I would be looking at 100+wpc to ensure flexibility of speaker choice going forward.

Between Parasound and PS Audio I'd probably go for PS Audio.... based on small size, simplicity and a matching USB DAC...

Between Krell and NAD, I'd have to try Krell.... even if just to verify whether their reputation is justified... (it really is a shame I don't have a good option to buy used)...

And 100+WPC is really what is making the Musical Fidelity unappealing.... Sure, I love Monitor Audio speakers now... but what if I find a brand I prefer later that isn't as sensitive? Then I have to upgrade both amp and Speakers at the same time....

[Ajani]

Just when I thought things could not get anymore complicated... I found The Absolute Sound's Review of the PS Audio Trio, Pre-amp, Amp and DAC... (I was worried that the DAC might not be up to cut.. but I was wrong).... They loved all 3 (especially the DAC)... which is encouraging, except that the reviewer mentioned he would have been absolutely taken with the amp if he didn't have on hand the new Rotel Class D amp, which he felt was better overall than the PS Audio...

According to the reviewer these new Class D amps are supposed to be really fast and lively... So now I'm left wondering if I should add the New Rotel's to my list instead of the RC1070 & RB1080 Combo I was considering earlier...

Building a setup from scratch is fun, but the options are endless (worse yet, since I can't try out all the options with the correct speakers)....

[audio amateur]

The more you can spend, the more the options.. that's the problem. Even more if you can buy used. It's a real headache.
If you're looking for a relatively inexpensive usb DAC, have a look at the Firestone Fubar II.

[Ajani]

The more you can spend, the more the options.. that's the problem. Even more if you can buy used. It's a real headache.
If you're looking for a relatively inexpensive usb DAC, have a look at the Firestone Fubar II.

Yep... way too many options... I think what I'll probably do is just jump in and buy the PS Audio Trio with Some Monitor Audios when I'm ready and ignore the other options... Since anyway I go about it, I'll be taking a risk of some kind...

[basite]

You can tell by spelling etc if they are not from an english speaking country. They could be kids as well (Sgtbass anyone?)
Yes it's nice to have diversity. Most of the forum posters are american however.

Ajani, I would personally spend more on speakers than anything else. I would definitely get GS20's over RS6's and cut down on the amp etc.. I bet a 740a would do a pretty good job;)
It doesn't have the balanced inputs though, unlike the 840. But then the 840 is more expensive. If i'm not wrong the GS20's are fairly efficient, so you don't really need 200+ watts. Let me tell you, my speakers are 84dB/2.83v efficiency (not good at all in my opinion), powered by 10 watts. At normal to good listening levels, they fill my (small room-14 by 10 feet-pretty well).
I would imagine you'll be fine with 50watts+ in a normal/large room with those speakers, unless you want to blast them.


I think speakers are as important as the amp. So I'd wait till I can enlarge my budget and then buy what I want...

50 watts (being from MF, count those as real watts...), is enough to drive 'normal' sized and efficiency speakers in a small to medium sized room. Considering the Monitor Audio's are not a pain in the ass to drive (fairly constant impedence, and 'normal' efficiency) would make the MF an exellent choice. However, more power gives more headroom, and thus more power available on peaks. But you can always upgrade later.

just to let you know, I filled an entire cafetaria (at school, it's about 40m by 20m) with sound (to pretty darn high SPL's) using my double advents, driven by a 50 watt denon integrated.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[audio amateur]

I think speakers are as important as the amp. So I'd wait till I can enlarge my budget and then buy what I want...

just to let you know, I filled an entire cafetaria (at school, it's about 40m by 20m) with sound (to pretty darn high SPL's) using my double advents, driven by a 50 watt denon integrated.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.
I personally believe speakers can sound much different with respect to other speakers than amps can. But to each his own. It's his decision in the end.
I'm guessing those advents are quite efficient. Good stuff

[Ajani]

My take on the Speakers Vs Amp importance issue, is that Speakers in the Same price range (and category... e.g. Floorstanders) can sound completely different... while Amps in the same price range (and Power specifications) tend to be more subtle in their differences...

However, the difference between the same type of speaker at difference prices tends to be far less significant... e.g. based on my listening experiences... the differences between the B&W CM1 and the B&W 805S, The Revel Concerta F12 and The Revel Perfoma F32 & The Monitor Audio RS6 and The Monitor Audio GS20 were far less obvious than the differences between the sound of each brand of speakers... In each case IMVHO, the cheaper model sounded maybe 85 - 90% as good as the higher end one, while the difference in price was always about 3:1....

So while I definitely think it's worth it to upgrade to a higher model of speakers (if you can afford it), I think it's more essential to find the correct brand and then build a good setup around it....

Also, one of the reasons why I'm more likely to start with say a Monitor Audio RS6 and a PS Audio/Musical Fidelity Amp (and upgrade to the GS20 later on) than to start with the Monitor Audio GS20 and a Entry level NAD or a HT Receiver... is because I did an audition of the Monitor Audio GS20, RS6 and RS8 on a cheap NAD Receiver in a dedicated listening room in a store in Toronto last year... and the sad part is that the only speaker I could correctly identify as playing when I guessed (blind listening test) was the RS8... simply because it had excessive bass... I honestly couldn't tell the difference reliably between the GS20 and the RS6 on cheap electronics....

[basite]

I personally believe speakers can sound much different with respect to other speakers than amps can. But to each his own. It's his decision in the end.
I'm guessing those advents are quite efficient. Good stuff



I agree that a speaker can make the biggest difference, but I also believe that amps can sound different too.

For example, I heard audio physics, being driven by a Mcintosh amp, at first it sounded good, but then you hear the mids sound to over emphasized, and highs were wrong. Bass was good, but still not perfect.
then I heard the same speakers, in the same room, driven by an Accuphase. and I honestly couldn't find one weak point.
both products cost equally much though, and it's definately not a quality issue.
Then you'd say that the Mcintosh is just not as good as the Accuphase. But you're wrong. I then heard the Mcintosh drive Monitor Audio Platinum series speakers (the floorstanders), and the same speakers being driven by the accuphase. Here I preferred the Mcintosh over the accuphase.

amps can make big sound differences IMO, less than speakers? maybe. But finding the right amp for your speakers is as important as choosing your speakers.

don't just buy something, and put it together. Take care about matching.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

I agree that a speaker can make the biggest difference, but I also believe that amps can sound different too.

For example, I heard audio physics, being driven by a Mcintosh amp, at first it sounded good, but then you hear the mids sound to over emphasized, and highs were wrong. Bass was good, but still not perfect.
then I heard the same speakers, in the same room, driven by an Accuphase. and I honestly couldn't find one weak point.
both products cost equally much though, and it's definately not a quality issue.
Then you'd say that the Mcintosh is just not as good as the Accuphase. But you're wrong. I then heard the Mcintosh drive Monitor Audio Platinum series speakers (the floorstanders), and the same speakers being driven by the accuphase. Here I preferred the Mcintosh over the accuphase.

amps can make big sound differences IMO, less than speakers? maybe. But finding the right amp for your speakers is as important as choosing your speakers.

don't just buy something, and put it together. Take care about matching.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Good Points...

I Had a similar experience two years ago with my own setup... I initially Had an a NAD C352 Integrated with a C521bee CD Player and a Pair of Mission V63 Speakers... Just Changing from the NAD Amp to a Rotel made a noticeable difference in the sound of my speakers.... the sound went from just being polite to exciting... System matching makes a difference... I'm glad I have a few months to make up my mind on what to buy... and how much to spend.....

BTW, how did the Platinums sound on the Mcintosh? I'd love to get the chance to audition a pair (not that they are anywhere near my current budget... lol)

[basite]

BTW, how did the Platinums sound on the Mcintosh? I'd love to get the chance to audition a pair (not that they are anywhere near my current budget... lol)


let's just say Mcintosh and Monitor Audio make a good match :p

seriously. The MA platinums are really neutral (sometimes bright, actually), and darn fast, bass is extremely tight too. Sometimes a bit to analytical for me though, that's where the Mac makes it up. the combo became more musical, but still really fast, with exellent bass, and really transparent. The Mcintosh gave more weight to the sound, it gave it more body. Overall a very balanced sound...


They are definately worth a listen. Sound is pretty undescribable, but I'm sure you'll like them :D


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Mr Peabody]

Basite, the harmony between pieces of equipment in a system is called synergy :)

Did you get your Siltech in?

[basite]

Did you get your Siltech in?


yup,

working on the cable review as we speak (or type)...

the new siltech is still breaking in though, but I already clearly remember why I chose this one :D

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

Ok guys, thanks again for all the suggestions...

I had narrowed down my options to the PS Audio Trio C100 (and eventually the matching DAC)... The Creek Classic (eventually with Benchmark DAC1 USB) or Musical Fidelity XT100 (eventually with XDAC V8 - I just read the Stereophile review - nice)....

I ruled out the seperates for space considerations and power has become pretty much a non-issue, since I decided (after consultation with she who must be obeyed) to put my setup in my bedroom (currently about 13 by 10 feet)....

In the end since I will have no chance to try out any of the three choices with the Monitor Audio speakers (except for the Musical Fidelity, which I know sounds amazing)... I decided to use a not-so-scientific approach to deciding between the three... basically I umm... well... asked my wife which one she thought looks pretty... so anyway, seems like it's gonna be a Musical Fidelity/Monitor Audio Combo afterall.... which is perfect for a small to medium room as I've heard that combo several times in a slightly smaller room than my bedroom....

Anyway, thanks again... In a few months, when I finally get around to taking the trip to Puerto Rico and buying the combo... I'll post my initial impressions and eventually a complete review...

[Ajani]

let's just say Mcintosh and Monitor Audio make a good match :p

seriously. The MA platinums are really neutral (sometimes bright, actually), and darn fast, bass is extremely tight too. Sometimes a bit to analytical for me though, that's where the Mac makes it up. the combo became more musical, but still really fast, with exellent bass, and really transparent. The Mcintosh gave more weight to the sound, it gave it more body. Overall a very balanced sound...


They are definately worth a listen. Sound is pretty undescribable, but I'm sure you'll like them :D


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Nice... maybe in 5 or so years I'll be able to upgrade to the Platinums (probably version 2 by that time though... :) )....

[Mr Peabody]

I can't blame you for going with a proven combo. I don't know if I'd have your patience though to wait.

Usually bedrooms are crowded and not the best for sound stage and stereo set up, any compromises on a different room? Assuming you have a normal bed in there, it makes it difficult to do the listener in the perfect triangle configuration to your stereo speakers. You'll either be too close or have the bed or furnture between you. Hate to wreck anything after you've made a decision but have you ever thought about a good headphone amp and headphones? I am a big Sennheiser fan. I drive mine with the Musical Fidelity X-can but would love to try some others. I believe PS Audio has a head amp out that runs around $999.00. It would be interesting to see if there was that much difference in SQ. I'm not sure how much the X-can is these days but it's about half that price. There are several cheaper than that from reputable companies as well. This comes to mind as it seems space may be an issue for you. Headphones is a way to get excellent sound quality and eliminate any drawbacks of room interactions. Or, maybe put the wife and the TV in the bedroom :)

[Ajani]

I can't blame you for going with a proven combo. I don't know if I'd have your patience though to wait.

Usually bedrooms are crowded and not the best for sound stage and stereo set up, any compromises on a different room? Assuming you have a normal bed in there, it makes it difficult to do the listener in the perfect triangle configuration to your stereo speakers. You'll either be too close or have the bed or furnture between you. Hate to wreck anything after you've made a decision but have you ever thought about a good headphone amp and headphones? I am a big Sennheiser fan. I drive mine with the Musical Fidelity X-can but would love to try some others. I believe PS Audio has a head amp out that runs around $999.00. It would be interesting to see if there was that much difference in SQ. I'm not sure how much the X-can is these days but it's about half that price. There are several cheaper than that from reputable companies as well. This comes to mind as it seems space may be an issue for you. Headphones is a way to get excellent sound quality and eliminate any drawbacks of room interactions. Or, maybe put the wife and the TV in the bedroom :)

You have no idea how right that last option may be... I have the option to have the stereo either in the bedroom or the living room... only problem is that the tv is in the livingroom, so it would mean that either my wife can watch tv or I can listen to my stereo... so I chose to seperate them... But I can still switch them... so depending on whether the stereo sounds good in the bedroom or not, I may just put the tv in there and have the stereo in the livingroom... I actually have the bedroom setup so I can get a proper triangle for the stereo though (same thing with the living room)....

I've considered the posibility of a benchmark USB DAC and a pair of Sennheisers... but I'm a little worried that I'll get carried away with the volume.... I may eventually add headphones as a 2nd system.... but I doub't I'll start with the phones.... I really miss having speakers at this stage.... oh and waiting really sucks....

[audio amateur]

Waiting is the worst thing, i've experienced it long enough:)

[basite]

Waiting is the worst thing, i've experienced it long enough:)


I think I understand you :D

I waited 9 weeks for my cd player to arrive. waiting just plain sucks!

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

The hardest part about waiting for me, is that it gives me more time to second guess my decision... Now my brain is wondering what a setup of Revel F12, Creek Classic and Benchmark DAC1 USB would be like in comparison to the Monitor Audio RS8, Musical Fidelity X-T100 and X-DAC V8....

I imagine the former would be butter smooth neutral with good detail, while the latter would be really musical, fast and involving....

I hate waiting!!!!!!

[audio amateur]

The hardest part about waiting for me, is that it gives me more time to second guess my decision... Now my brain is wondering what a setup of Revel F12, Creek Classic and Benchmark DAC1 USB would be like in comparison to the Monitor Audio RS8, Musical Fidelity X-T100 and X-DAC V8....

I imagine the former would be butter smooth neutral with good detail, while the latter would be really musical, fast and involving....

I hate waiting!!!!!!
D'you have anything to play with in the meantime?
Until 2 weeks ago, all I had were earphones and my laptop's speakers.. That lasted several months. I almost went nuts

[Ajani]

D'you have anything to play with in the meantime?
Until 2 weeks ago, all I had were earphones and my laptop's speakers.. That lasted several months. I almost went nuts

I'm slowly going nuts, all I've got is my laptop and some earphones... :(

[audio amateur]

oh sh*t...

[Ajani]

oh sh*t...

Yep... I'm up a creek about now.... trying to get by on iTunes on some earphones is pretty much torture... so I have loads of time to research just about every brand in my price range and dream up new combos and second, third and fourth guess my decisions...

[audio amateur]

Yep... I'm up a creek about now.... trying to get by on iTunes on some earphones is pretty much torture... so I have loads of time to research just about every brand in my price range and dream up new combos and second, third and fourth guess my decisions...
Well... you do have something nice to look forward to in the end. So it's not ALL bad. But listening to earphones/headphones or whatever simply didn't cut it for me. That's why I used my laptop in-builts quite alot toward the end. That's probably what made my speakers sound so good when I finally got them:p
I think you'll be happy with RS8's

[Ajani]

Hey, has anyone tried the Arcam Solo???

I just realized that beauty is in my price range as well..... I "assume" that since it also has a built in CD player and Tuner, that it's likely not the best integrated amp in my price range, but I imagine it has a good CD player and hopefully a good preamp section so I could upgrade later.....

[basite]

Hey, has anyone tried the Arcam Solo???

I just realized that beauty is in my price range as well..... I "assume" that since it also has a built in CD player and Tuner, that it's likely not the best integrated amp in my price range, but I imagine it has a good CD player and hopefully a good preamp section so I could upgrade later.....


arcam has good products, their solo can't touch their other products though...

[Ajani]

arcam has good products, their solo can't touch their other products though...

Oh, that's really lame.... the Diva A70 Integrated Amp + the CD73 costs $1750, while the Solo is $1600... since the CD section is essentially the same and both the Solo and the A70 are 50 watts per channel, I would have thought the solo would be pretty much a one box combo of the A70 and the CD73...

EDIT: Have you tried the Diva Range?

[Mr Peabody]

Arcam does sound pretty good and their amps can drive some amazing speaker loads for their size, however, their power ratings used to be into 4 ohms and 50 watts sounded like barely 50 watts. So don't think it's rated at 50 and will sound like 100. The exception was my FMJ 3 channel rated at 100x3, this drove my Dyn's in a HT set up and It was a fairly strong 100 watts. A big improvement over the Alpha 10 integrated I tried rated at 100 watts. Arcam will be a bit leaner and more agressive than the MF though, it depends on what sound you are trying to achieve.

I heard a Solo once but they were coming out of the pre outs into the Martin Logan amplified speakers. The sound was really good which speaks good for the CD and preamp but I didn't get to hear how strong the internal Solo amp was.

[Ajani]

Arcam does sound pretty good and their amps can drive some amazing speaker loads for their size, however, their power ratings used to be into 4 ohms and 50 watts sounded like barely 50 watts. So don't think it's rated at 50 and will sound like 100. The exception was my FMJ 3 channel rated at 100x3, this drove my Dyn's in a HT set up and It was a fairly strong 100 watts. A big improvement over the Alpha 10 integrated I tried rated at 100 watts. Arcam will be a bit leaner and more agressive than the MF though, it depends on what sound you are trying to achieve.

I heard a Solo once but they were coming out of the pre outs into the Martin Logan amplified speakers. The sound was really good which speaks good for the CD and preamp but I didn't get to hear how strong the internal Solo amp was.

Hmmmm, the CD and Preamp are the most intersting parts to me... since I can always upgrade the amp later if it's too wimpy (It is measured at 50 watts at 8 ohms, 75 at 4 ohms)....

Looks like I've got one more option to consider.....

[Mr Peabody]

Arcam has always had excellent digital playback. Will the Solo give you any USB connection?

[Ajani]

Arcam has always had excellent digital playback. Will the Solo give you any USB connection?

Unfortunately not... but at least, I'd be able to compare the CD playback from the Solo with my computer and DVD player... so I can know whether buying a USB DAC would be worthwhile.....

The only Integrated amp I can think of around my price range with a USB input is the Musical Fidelity A1 (should cost under $2K when it comes out).... but it only has 20 watts (which would probably still be more than enough power, but it's hard to convince myself to spend that much for so few watts)....

[cmarchiano]

Would like to know where to get the Parasound 5125 amp and the P3 pre amp for 1.5k? The best that I have seen was 2.8k.

[O'Shag]

Ajani,

If I was in your spot, there are two serious contenders I would look at given the price range:

1. The Naim Nait 5i Integrated @1,495.00 US
2. The Cayin A-50T @ $1,295.00 US

The Naim Nait 5i will excel with exceptional punch. What makes the Nait 5i so interesting, is that the Naim engineers have managed to capture some of the magic of their very expensive amp/preamp in this 'humble' integrated. Namely, it excels in the area of pace, rhythm, and timing - PRaT. I've not owned one but one of my audio buddies has one, and I was very impressed. It is solid state, but does not sound overly bright or etched - hence a very good match for the Monitor Audio Gold Reference 20s. The Nait 5i sounds more powerful than its 50watts, which leads me to believe it has very generous current available to drive a reasonably efficient speaker load such as the .GR20s.

The second option, the Cayin A-50T, is a helluva lot of amp for the money, especially if you like the tube sound - as I do (its much easier for a signal to pass through a vacuum than slog its way through silicon). The A-50T is built to a very high standard given its price. Its 35 watts in ultralinear mode is adequate given that the GR20s at 6ohms nominal / 89db are not too difficult a load to drive. There is also the option to use triode, but the power drops to 15watts a bit on the wimpy side. A pity really because a powerful triode amp sounds awesome. The A-50T won't have the magic of the Nait in terms of that exceptional sense of pace and control, but it will offer the midrange magic of tubes ie lots of body, harmonic completeness etc etc. that the Nait will not deliver in the same way I think. But I can;t be sure as I've not yet heard the A-50T myself. But it Defintiely is a great buy.

These are the two amps I would strongly consider buying new at your price range.

If you could spend more (which you probably won't want to), and were willing to buy slightly used, then the Marsh Sound Design amps/preamps are awesome for the money. I'm dying to see what Luvin Da Blues thinks of his new Marsh gear. He just bought the 2000B preamp and A200 amp I think.

Cheers big ears

[Mr Peabody]

Nothing like more choices :) but O'Shag brought a couple very good ones to the table. Naim is very good, like Britain's answer to Krell. I haven't actually heard Cayin. I've been very curious to hear a couple of their integrated amps, one they claim has a sonic signature of a Mac tube and the other they say mocks the Marantz 7 or 9, it's been some time since I read about them so forgive the non-specifics.

[Luvin Da Blues]

If you could spend more (which you probably won't want to), and were willing to buy slightly used, then the Marsh Sound Design amps/preamps are awesome for the money. I'm dying to see what Luvin Da Blues thinks of his new Marsh gear. He just bought the 2000B preamp and A200 amp I think.


What can I say....:biggrin5: . Actually I bought the A400s amp (200wpc A/B, balanced inputs). This amp is one solid performer. The most noticeable thing about this amp is the ease and detail in which the background vocals and instruments are presented. It is huge tho, it won't fit inside to many std. cabinets. I though that it would show the limitations of my psb G-Designs but it makes them "sing" like I've never heard them. I originally had them wired with #12 awg but decided to bi-wire with #10awg which really opened up the imaging and soundstage not to mention more low end "slam". Goes to show what decent electronics can do.

The matching P200b (balanced outputs) is perfect for synergy (of course) as they were designed to work as a matching system. The P200b has limited connectivity but this is fine for me as I'm going back to the basics with my current system. I do feel ripped off not getting any tone controls...LOL, trust me, with my current setup they are not needed but then I didn't use the EQ or any tone adjustments with my Denon either.

I will post some pics when I get my camera fixed.

[Ajani]

Would like to know where to get the Parasound 5125 amp and the P3 pre amp for 1.5k? The best that I have seen was 2.8k.

Ummm... I actually said I can get the P3 Pre amp + A23 Amp for $1.5K (retail is $1.65K)....

[Ajani]

Ajani,

If I was in your spot, there are two serious contenders I would look at given the price range:

1. The Naim Nait 5i Integrated @1,495.00 US
2. The Cayin A-50T @ $1,295.00 US

The Naim Nait 5i will excel with exceptional punch. What makes the Nait 5i so interesting, is that the Naim engineers have managed to capture some of the magic of their very expensive amp/preamp in this 'humble' integrated. Namely, it excels in the area of pace, rhythm, and timing - PRaT. I've not owned one but one of my audio buddies has one, and I was very impressed. It is solid state, but does not sound overly bright or etched - hence a very good match for the Monitor Audio Gold Reference 20s. The Nait 5i sounds more powerful than its 50watts, which leads me to believe it has very generous current available to drive a reasonably efficient speaker load such as the .GR20s.

The second option, the Cayin A-50T, is a helluva lot of amp for the money, especially if you like the tube sound - as I do (its much easier for a signal to pass through a vacuum than slog its way through silicon). The A-50T is built to a very high standard given its price. Its 35 watts in ultralinear mode is adequate given that the GR20s at 6ohms nominal / 89db are not too difficult a load to drive. There is also the option to use triode, but the power drops to 15watts a bit on the wimpy side. A pity really because a powerful triode amp sounds awesome. The A-50T won't have the magic of the Nait in terms of that exceptional sense of pace and control, but it will offer the midrange magic of tubes ie lots of body, harmonic completeness etc etc. that the Nait will not deliver in the same way I think. But I can;t be sure as I've not yet heard the A-50T myself. But it Defintiely is a great buy.

These are the two amps I would strongly consider buying new at your price range.

If you could spend more (which you probably won't want to), and were willing to buy slightly used, then the Marsh Sound Design amps/preamps are awesome for the money. I'm dying to see what Luvin Da Blues thinks of his new Marsh gear. He just bought the 2000B preamp and A200 amp I think.

Cheers big ears

Thanks.... I've wondered about Naim for awhile, but I've never had the chance to audition any of their products... well that's 2 more products on my list.... This is gonna be a lot of work.... lol