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dogorman
02-06-2008, 08:46 AM
Looking for a pair of speakers for under two-k, new or used, that have an unusually good soundstage, are a relatively easy load to drive using my little Naim Nait5i, and (obviously) sound great across the full spectrum -- but most important is the soundstage. I'm running Linn Ninkas right now and they sound great: agile, full, well-controlled, no complaints except for the image, so anything that succeeds them will have to do this one thing better than they do.

Other forums have led to a narrowing of the field to the following candidates, in no particular order:

The Joseph Audio RM-7si Mk-II or RM-22si
The Salk Song Tower
The Meadowlark Kestrel-2
Something by Totem
The Alon One Mk-I
The Audio Physic Virgo-II

Primary listening taste is Jazz, but rock and roll does have a place in my collection, and besides that the winning speaker would also be part of an eventual 5.1 home theater rig.

The room is eight feet across by fifteen-feet-six-inches deep, made of poured concrete and cindar blocks, and treated with d-i-y bass traps. Source is an Arcam FMJ-CD23, preamp is a Naim AV2, power is a gain-matched Naim Nait5i, interconnects are Belden 95259 coax with Cardas plugs, made by Blue Jeans, and speaker wire is cross-connected coaxial made by Element.

The Nait was hooked to my friend's Linn Katans (85db, 4ohm) in that room, and didn't move them worth a crud -- which I know is a power shortage because I ususally like the Katans very much.

Any thoughts that would help me narrow that list would be greatly appreciated. Plan now is to buy three pair (give or take) and audition them H-2-H.

flippo
02-06-2008, 08:52 AM
Take a look at the Mirage omd 15's. Beautiful speakers and a huge soundstage.

http://miragespeakers.com/v2/product_page.php?open=lines&subid=666&id=876

Feanor
02-06-2008, 08:57 AM
Looking for a pair of speakers for under two-k, new or used, that have an unusually good soundstage, are a relatively easy load to drive using my little Naim Nait5i, and (obviously) sound great across the full spectrum -- but most important is the soundstage.....

The Nait5i has the reputation of being a very fine sounding amplifier however it isn't powerful. If it can't drive the 85dB sensitivity Linns Katans, even in your small room, then clearly need to look for a speaker with at least 88dB sensitivity. That pretty much excludes the Totems, for instance.

basite
02-06-2008, 02:53 PM
I don't have experience with all the speakers on your list, but
The Audio physics (I've heard the MK2, as well as the new Mk V); and I must say that they sure did impress me. They are darn fast speakers, with incredible detail and extremely real sound. Sure worth a listen. By the way, they make an exellent couple with Naim.

Totems would be nice too, but as Feanor said, they like power. If you go for totem (and they are worth checking out), definately check out their 'model 1 signature' (a bookshelf speaker), or their Hawk or the Staff speaker. I think it will work with your Naim, but more power is welcome to drive them to their full potential. However, I've heard that little naim do crazy things with the speakers I've heard it driving, as well as I've heard those totems do crazy things, ment in a positive way (also positive with the naim), they had suprisingly deep bass, and could go reasonably loud, they might seem 'small', but their sound is definately larger than the speaker itselves.

I've heard their Mani-2 signature too, you'll need plenty more power for them, but dang, really, what a speaker...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

dogorman
02-06-2008, 02:56 PM
Bastie, I was really curious that you didn't include Thiel in your list -- especially since someone else has in another forum (he suggested the 1.6s with a subwoofer). Not as good a match for the Nait, perhaps?

basite
02-06-2008, 03:22 PM
thanks for asking...

Never heard them with nait...
I thought about including them in my post, but since I haven't heard them with Naim gear, I can't really comment on how'd they match...

I have a pair of 2.3's myself, and I can only say I'm impressed :)
as you can see in my signature I'm running them with a Mcintosh integrated, 100 Mcwatts @ 4 ohm, and it works perfectly. I rarely wish for more power, it already goes crazy darn loud with this amp, during most of the listening, the Mcintosh doesn't even hit 1 watt, it just hovers around 0.1 watt, coherently producing music.

The 1.6 is indeed a good speaker (I've heard them with many gears, but my dealer only recently got Naim in, so I might check them out soon too with naim...) as a matter of fact, I might just go to my dealer tomorrow, maybe he has them hooked up...

Thiel is known for it's coherence, their imaging, wide soundstage, being very very in phase and being extremely fast. My 2.3's will litteraly go from dead silent to the 'attack' of an entire orchestra in less than a blink. Something I can't say for much other speakers.
they're definately worth checking out too. I will warn you for 1 thing though. As a result of being fast, detailed and having all the other good things, is that they're very unforgiving. A bad recording will sound noticably bad. The Audio Physics also are pretty unforgiving, this is not a bad thing though, since good recordings will sound exellent.


I'd add a subwoofer though with the 1.6's if you're going to listen to heavy classical music. they worked well for most music I've heard (Thiels are exellent with jazz)...

But as I said, I'll check them out with Naim if I can get the chance, and I'll let you know. If I don't go tomorrow, I will go this sunday, so whatever happens, you'll know this week :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

dogorman
02-07-2008, 05:51 AM
The Thiels probably won't fit the available footprint on either side of my rack, which is a shame because I think they'd otherwise be a finalist. I'm curious to know if anyone uses Naim electronics and has a strong reaction among the final candidates -- which seem to be the Reference 3A De Capo, the Joseph Audio RM7si Mk II or RM22si, the Salk Song Towers, or the Audio Physics Virgo IIs. I have a pair of A-P Spark IIIIs and I'm not happy with the high frequencies, so the Virgos are the longshot of the bunch right now.

The winning pair will have to do soundstage better than my Ninkas, excellent microphonics, a wide range of musical tastes and volumes (mostly Jazz but including a fair sprinkling of moderately noisy rock and roll) and will be part of an eventual 5.1 theater system, *and* they have to play nice with my scrappy little Naim Nait5i.

Any concluding thoughts are, as always, warmly appreciated.

basite
02-07-2008, 06:04 AM
if the thiels won't fit in your room (at the side of your rack) I would stay away from the AP's too. Their side firing woofers need their room...


I'd be suprised if the thiels wouldn't fit though, a CS1.6 isn't that big...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

blackraven
02-07-2008, 07:49 AM
I love the sound of Thiels. If I ever decide to get rid of my magnepans they will be my next speaker. If I cant afford the 5k for the Magnepan 3.6's then I think I will pull the trigger on the Thiels.

basite
02-07-2008, 09:07 AM
I love the sound of Thiels..


you're not alone man, you're definately not alone :cornut:

I assume you'll be looking at CS2.4's then eh? Wonderful speakers...

I own a pair of CS2.3's and they straight blew everything else away in their pricerange I've compared them to, coupled with my Mcintosh...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Feanor
02-07-2008, 09:59 AM
The Nait5i has the reputation of being a very fine sounding amplifier however it isn't powerful. If it can't drive the 85dB sensitivity Linns Katans, even in your small room, then clearly need to look for a speaker with at least 88dB sensitivity. That pretty much excludes the Totems, for instance.

Living in Canada, maybe I'm a bit biased to Canadian companies. But given a small room and modest amp power, I'd personally consider Paradigms very strongly, either the Signature 2 or for a lot less money, the Studio 20. They are relatively high efficiency and have a very good rep.

http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference/speaker_only-specification-32-1-2-17.paradigm
http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference/speaker_only-specification-26-1-2-13.paradigm

blackraven
02-07-2008, 10:53 PM
The thing is, that if and when he gets a bigger room, the Thiels would be right at home.
Paradigms are very good speakers though. I prefer the sound of B&W's however.

drseid
02-08-2008, 03:40 AM
Looking for a pair of speakers for under two-k, new or used, that have an unusually good soundstage, are a relatively easy load to drive using my little Naim Nait5i, and (obviously) sound great across the full spectrum -- but most important is the soundstage. I'm running Linn Ninkas right now and they sound great: agile, full, well-controlled, no complaints except for the image, so anything that succeeds them will have to do this one thing better than they do.

Other forums have led to a narrowing of the field to the following candidates, in no particular order:

The Joseph Audio RM-7si Mk-II or RM-22si
The Salk Song Tower
The Meadowlark Kestrel-2
Something by Totem
The Alon One Mk-I
The Audio Physic Virgo-II

Primary listening taste is Jazz, but rock and roll does have a place in my collection, and besides that the winning speaker would also be part of an eventual 5.1 home theater rig.

The room is eight feet across by fifteen-feet-six-inches deep, made of poured concrete and cindar blocks, and treated with d-i-y bass traps. Source is an Arcam FMJ-CD23, preamp is a Naim AV2, power is a gain-matched Naim Nait5i, interconnects are Belden 95259 coax with Cardas plugs, made by Blue Jeans, and speaker wire is cross-connected coaxial made by Element.

The Nait was hooked to my friend's Linn Katans (85db, 4ohm) in that room, and didn't move them worth a crud -- which I know is a power shortage because I ususally like the Katans very much.

Any thoughts that would help me narrow that list would be greatly appreciated. Plan now is to buy three pair (give or take) and audition them H-2-H.

I haven't heard the new Song's from Salk (plan to at AKFest in a couple months), but I have heard many other speakers from Jim Salk and have been nothing but impressed.

Josephs have always been favs of mine, so it should come as no surprise that I can add my recommendation to others you have received on the other boards. The 7s and 22s will sound similar with the 7s having a hair better imaging (as most mini-monitors do) compared to the increased low-end of the 22s as you would expect. The thing about all Joseph speakers that has always impressed me is their clean crossovers. I should mention that I have never heard the Josephs powered by Naim (nor many other speakers)... so that is a question mark that unfortunately I can't answer. They are not the most sensitive of speakers so that may pose a problem for you with that particular combination... but I am just speculating.

Good luck,

---Dave

dogorman
02-08-2008, 09:26 AM
drseid, a follow-up question for you: If I get the 7's I can get them in mk-II right now, but the 22s are only currently for sale on the 'gon as a mk-I. Presumably the 22s would endure as mains in a HT system -- will the 7's work as mains until I can get some more dough, or will they be too small? I think the 7's will be better for music, both because they'll probably image better, as you say, and also because the specific pair I'd get would be mk-ii, but if they can't handle HT reproduction, as mains, at least for awhile, then the 22s are the smarter choice.

Corto Maltese
02-08-2008, 09:39 AM
In regards to sensitivity issue, would you consider Tannoy?
They are all together different than any speakers on your list, and you love Tannoy or not. Some in “not” group would say “too British” – I don’t really know what that means… But, it could be very good combination with Naim. I have listened Supernait with Micromega CDP, playing through a pair of Dimensions (12” coaxial, I can’t remember model). Full sound (on softer side) with large, deep soundstage. I liked that combination a lot – but… lots of money. However, used Tannoys are possible to find, and almost all of the models do show up on Audiogon, e-bay, etc. – some with very reasonable prices.
Good luck.

dogorman
02-08-2008, 10:06 AM
"Too British" sounds right up my alley. I love microphonic details, quick pacing, lean bottom-end -- the sorts of things I've come to associate with Linn and Naim. The big question you didn't address was the soundstage: remember, the winning candidate has to kick my Ninkas' *sses in that department, or they go straight back onto the 'gon. Can you recommend a pair of Tannoys that would fit the bill in my terrible room with my scrappy little Nait5i for juice?

dogorman
02-08-2008, 10:07 AM
Wait, you did mention soundstage, sorry. I read your post too quickly. Okay, I'll look into the Tannoy Dimension... whatevers, and report back. Thanks!

Corto Maltese
02-08-2008, 11:11 AM
Just to consider:
For HT 5.1 set-up:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1206561203
For 2 ch / 3.1:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1207012471
For project, awesome speakers, but cabinets would be probably too big for your room:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1205528257
- if you can make this guy ship them to you…

I am presently considering buying used pair of Saturn S8 (floorstanders) locally. I heard (read) all bunch of good things about them, and only one bad, with comments on buzz coming from one of the coaxial speakers. I don’t know was that the case of loose HF driver, but that can happen. Knowing this, I would say that audition is a must.
Regarding the shape / orientation of your room; where are your speakers – along the 8 feet wall or, along the 15 feet wall?

dogorman
02-08-2008, 11:27 AM
Unfortunately they're along the 8' wall (which is actually 10' -- I re-measured), and it's even worse than that because they're stuck in a recess of the room, which then opens out to essentially infinity-feet-wide, about eighteen inches in front of the left-side speaker. For a guy who likes soundstage, it might be the single worst room on the freaking planet.

Someone in another forum thinks I should add the Vienna Acoustics Beethoven Baby Grand to my list -- looks a tad on the large side, especially given that my Ninkas are already almost too big for the space, plus they're another 4-ohm, 90db load, which my Nait5i doesn't exactly prefer to the 8-ohm 88's and 90's of some of the other candidates.

Thoughts?

dogorman
02-08-2008, 12:18 PM
Here it is, without further ado, the worst listening room in the *freaking* world:

http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/dogorman/stereo.jpg

Corto Maltese
02-08-2008, 12:30 PM
I would consider moving...
Kidding. Vienna's are nice speakers, but...
Get away from 4 ohm speakers. Your Naim is 8 ohm. Even 100 dB sensitivity would not help you there.
You could try with some kind of studio monitors, known for good near-field, full range presentation, with no real need for sub. Tannoy did make some of those - could be the best in the world, but I can’t remember models. You could also find that horn-loaded speakers (like Klipsch) could give a bit edgy but otherwise good sound (even for HT) in spaces like yours. Some of other members could give you more info on those.

GMichael
02-08-2008, 12:58 PM
I am running a pair of these Strata Minis with a receiver. They have a planner tweeter & planner midrange. They sound fantastic to me. http://av123.com/index.php?option=com_virtuemart&page=shop.browse&category_id=18&Itemid=37

They also have a 30 day return policy on all speakers if they turn out not to be for you.

Corto Maltese
02-08-2008, 01:21 PM
GM, that could actually be very nice answer to dogorman's space problems. Those are 86 dB, but in 8 ohm.
Dogorman, read this:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/stratamini/stratamini.html
I didn't hear Strata's. For a long time I did not even consider planar speakers (my present amp is 15 wpch, tubes), but this one is interesting, judging by the reviews.

basite
02-08-2008, 01:52 PM
Get away from 4 ohm speakers. Your Naim is 8 ohm. Even 100 dB sensitivity would not help you there.


I don't see the problem...

a well designed amp, and the Naims certainly are, should and will have no problem driving 4 ohm speakers.

Power will actually increase as the impedence lowers, with a well designed amp. The naim is a simple, well designed amp with a good power supply. It will drive 4 ohm speakers as good as 8 ohm speakers.


Oh, and Dogorman, you have enough space for thiels, don't worry...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

dogorman
02-08-2008, 03:34 PM
Those Stratas are very intriguing and certainly make a striking impact visually. I read the review from "cover to cover" and my only hesitation is that the sound was described as perhaps just a tad laid-back for my tastes. I have a pair of Audio Physic Spark IIII's right now and I didn't keep them plugged into my system (will be selling on the 'gon, shortly) because the highs were too rolled-off for me. I'm all about the microphonics, the soundstage, and the PRAT, at least some of which requires some pretty assertive highs. I wonder: is there someplace I could listen to these Stratas, or is it an in-home demo only, like Cambridge?

On the question of 4 ohms vs. 8 ohms, as I understand things you are *both* right. The power output of the amp does indeed increase as the impedance of the speaker goes down, but this doesn't mean that the amp is working less hard, indeed it's working harder because (via ohm's law) it implies the need for more current to drive the signal at the same sound pressure. The Ninkas are 90db and 4ohm, and they work fine with the Nait5i, but the Katans, which are 85db and 4ohm, don't sound anything like as good as they should, when they're over at my house. So the consensus of staying with higher impedance speakers is probably a good instinct, ceteris paribus.

Incidentally, I don't know why I would think that I can talk about any of this as if I know what I'm doing, especially after showing you guys my room....

blackraven
02-08-2008, 04:05 PM
I would try to find a pair of Triangle floor standers. They have the soud that you are looking for. Very fast, very detailed and accurate sound with great midrange and the best high end I have heard in a speaker. They image extremely well and present a very good sound stage. They have very tight but slightly lean bass.

dogorman
02-08-2008, 04:33 PM
*UPDATE* : someone in another forum saw the same picture and said, "Why don't you pull the speakers out until the left-side one is even with that nasty corner?" and I wrote back and said, "Because the speakers are already too big for the space, that'll put 'em way too close to my head," and he said, "Why don't you try it?"

Well y'all can probably see this coming, but they sound uh-MAY-zing, now. So amazing, in fact, that I may have just saved myself a ton of headache and more than a small amount of dough.

Is there a software program out there that will help me place them scientifically? I seem to want to recall seeing a mention of something you can run on your computer that will tell you exactly where to put your speakers, but I might be just imagining that.

basite
02-09-2008, 02:16 AM
Is there a software program out there that will help me place them scientifically? I seem to want to recall seeing a mention of something you can run on your computer that will tell you exactly where to put your speakers, but I might be just imagining that.


I don't know any of those programs, but they'll probably exist and will probably cost you alot too...

However, I do recommend you to read through this:
http://www.rivesaudio.com/files/spkr_plcmt.pdf

Appendix A is probably the only thing that is helpful now though...

and this is interesting too:

http://www.rivesaudio.com/resources/listening_room/frame.html

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Feanor
02-09-2008, 04:15 AM
*UPDATE* : someone in another forum saw the same picture and said, "Why don't you pull the speakers out until the left-side one is even with that nasty corner?" and I wrote back and said, "Because the speakers are already too big for the space, that'll put 'em way too close to my head," and he said, "Why don't you try it?"

Well y'all can probably see this coming, but they sound uh-MAY-zing, now. So amazing, in fact, that I may have just saved myself a ton of headache and more than a small amount of dough.

Is there a software program out there that will help me place them scientifically? I seem to want to recall seeing a mention of something you can run on your computer that will tell you exactly where to put your speakers, but I might be just imagining that.

Very good advice you got. I too had the thought that wall reflections from you left speaker would be a big problem.

A classic guide for speaker setup is that from Cardas, the maker of cables and connectors ...
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

Clearly it isn't possible for everyone to set up their speakers in this way, depending on the size, shape, and other usage of their listening room.

drseid
02-09-2008, 07:23 AM
drseid, a follow-up question for you: If I get the 7's I can get them in mk-II right now, but the 22s are only currently for sale on the 'gon as a mk-I. Presumably the 22s would endure as mains in a HT system -- will the 7's work as mains until I can get some more dough, or will they be too small? I think the 7's will be better for music, both because they'll probably image better, as you say, and also because the specific pair I'd get would be mk-ii, but if they can't handle HT reproduction, as mains, at least for awhile, then the 22s are the smarter choice.

Sorry for the late response (been on a business trip)... The difference between the mk I and mk II versions of the Joseph speakers are not particularly great, IMO. So I would not let that deter you. That said, if you are going to be using a quality sub in a HT setup and would use it for music as well... then the 7s may be enough because they can easily get low enough to blend. The key is to get a sub that will mesh with them properly. If you plan on using the mains for music sans sub, then I would say the 22s are the better way to go... Just my opinion though.

---Dave

GMichael
02-09-2008, 02:12 PM
Those Stratas are very intriguing and certainly make a striking impact visually. I read the review from "cover to cover" and my only hesitation is that the sound was described as perhaps just a tad laid-back for my tastes. I have a pair of Audio Physic Spark IIII's right now and I didn't keep them plugged into my system (will be selling on the 'gon, shortly) because the highs were too rolled-off for me. I'm all about the microphonics, the soundstage, and the PRAT, at least some of which requires some pretty assertive highs. I wonder: is there someplace I could listen to these Stratas, or is it an in-home demo only, like Cambridge?

On the question of 4 ohms vs. 8 ohms, as I understand things you are *both* right. The power output of the amp does indeed increase as the impedance of the speaker goes down, but this doesn't mean that the amp is working less hard, indeed it's working harder because (via ohm's law) it implies the need for more current to drive the signal at the same sound pressure. The Ninkas are 90db and 4ohm, and they work fine with the Nait5i, but the Katans, which are 85db and 4ohm, don't sound anything like as good as they should, when they're over at my house. So the consensus of staying with higher impedance speakers is probably a good instinct, ceteris paribus.

Incidentally, I don't know why I would think that I can talk about any of this as if I know what I'm doing, especially after showing you guys my room....

If you are anywhere near zip code 18337 you are welcome to come here and hear mine. If not then I would suggest going to their forum and asking if there is anyone near you. The people there are extremely nice and make it a habbit of letting people come over to hear their equipment.
http://av123.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=117

dogorman
02-09-2008, 05:37 PM
Well, I just spent the better part of a day tweaking the placement of my existing speakers to contend with bizarre room resonances, and the setup I've ended up with... well, it looks completely dorky. But we don't buy all of this stuff because we want it to look good, now do we. (Note the left-side speaker actually firing *AWAY* from the listener. Don't ask me why this works, but it does.)

I guess the lesson in this is one that many of you were trying to tell me all along: there's no sense in buying new speakers until you've done what you can with room and placement. Call me stubborn.

http://www.myfilestash.com/userfiles/dogorman/room_xnw.jpg

KUNK
02-09-2008, 06:33 PM
Dyn's....the only speaker you'l ever need...outrageous sound from a small box...I would'nt use anything else unless I built it myself....and I are....a fun search to be sure

Peter_Klim
02-15-2008, 09:27 PM
If you are anywhere near zip code 18337 you are welcome to come here and hear mine. If not then I would suggest going to their forum and asking if there is anyone near you. The people there are extremely nice and make it a habbit of letting people come over to hear their equipment.
http://av123.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=21&Itemid=117

WOW! I use to live in Matamoras durring my high school/college years. Worked in Metro-Electronics durring college. Grew up in Port Jervis. Small world. How's Vanessa Carlton doing? ;)

xenophile
03-11-2008, 05:01 AM
I haven't heard any speakers present an image of the soundstage as well as a Tannoy Dual-Concentric. They may have other faults depending on model, but imaging is almost magically good, no matter where you listen from. Kef UniQs likely do the same.

pixelthis
03-12-2008, 12:37 AM
I would consider moving...
Kidding. Vienna's are nice speakers, but...
Get away from 4 ohm speakers. Your Naim is 8 ohm. Even 100 dB sensitivity would not help you there.
You could try with some kind of studio monitors, known for good near-field, full range presentation, with no real need for sub. Tannoy did make some of those - could be the best in the world, but I can’t remember models. You could also find that horn-loaded speakers (like Klipsch) could give a bit edgy but otherwise good sound (even for HT) in spaces like yours. Some of other members could give you more info on those.

More attention is paid to the non issue of speaker impedance than anything.

It used to matter more when amps were fifty watt and under, now most are way over that
I have used both 4 and 8 ohm, even in the same system, and while its important to match left and right, whether or not they are 4 or 8 never has made much difference to me.
Would a four ohm speaker sound better if it were an eight? HOW many angels can dance on the head of a pin?:1:

GMichael
03-12-2008, 06:21 AM
WOW! I use to live in Matamoras durring my high school/college years. Worked in Metro-Electronics durring college. Grew up in Port Jervis. Small world. How's Vanessa Carlton doing? ;)

Cool,
We're loving Milford. Wifey works in Port Jervis now. We haven't seen Vanessa Carlton around. Maybe she's off on tour somewhere.