Hafler help

[mbeigh]

Just getting back into listening to my vinyl. I am running a Rega P2 thru a Hafler D200 amp and DH101 preamp with sound out JBL L-100 speakers. I am wondering if it is possible to hook my powered Klipsch sub woofer into this system.

Any thoughts?

M Beigh

[melvin walker]

Just getting back into listening to my vinyl. I am running a Rega P2 thru a Hafler D200 amp and DH101 preamp with sound out JBL L-100 speakers. I am wondering if it is possible to hook my powered Klipsch sub woofer into this system.

Any thoughts?

M Beigh
The JBL L-100 are very efficient. The JBL are also quite bright more of the west coast sound. What speakers are inside the Klipsch ? Klipsch was noted for building enclosures not raw speakers. What type of enclosure is the Klipsch sub woofer in ?
With this type of information you be able to answer your own questions.
It will require a little research. You might also want to change your JBL L-100's. to a larger speaker system. The JBL L-100's are not noted for their bass response. Take a look on Ebay.

[JohnMichael]

Welcome to AudioReview. Question does your Klipsch subwoofer have both preamp inputs and speaker level inputs/outputs? What is the model of the subwoofer? If you have speaker level inputs and outputs you can take the outputs from the amp to the subwoofer speaker inputs and then from the speaker out to the JBL's. If your preamp has an extra preamp out you could send that out put to the siganl level inputs of the sub. This will work as long as the volume control effects both outputs.

[mbeigh]

thanks for reply. It is a SW-8 klipsch. On back of speaker have input and output rca plugs and left and right speaker cable hookups to speakers and from amplifier.
Also phase switch and level dial and lowpass dial 40-120.

thanks
M Beigh

[melvin walker]

thanks for reply. It is a SW-8 klipsch. On back of speaker have input and output rca plugs and left and right speaker cable hookups to speakers and from amplifier.
Also phase switch and level dial and lowpass dial 40-120.

thanks
M Beigh
Don't mix and match speakers. If your JBL are lacking bass and they do. get larger JBL's., if you like the JBL sound. Remember many speakers built in the days of your 100's were very colored. JBL's tended to color the mid range. To get any kind of decent bass from JBL s you need the larger JBL's. Example the L200 which uses a 15 inch woofer.

When you mix and match speakers you create many problems. Maybe you are not a critical listener , if so then it doesn't matter , if you are then don't match JBL's with a
speaker that maybe very different.

The speakers Klipsch put in their cabinets were generally of lower quality than the speakers used by JBL.
A 1974 Consumers Digest test report of the JBL 100 Century reported " The bass ends and starts fading around 70Hz. Which contributes to a pronounced edgy brightness of the sound.
Indeed this brighness became downright hardness on much material, Coloration of sound is well above average "
Your speaker are very efficent. Using a 12 inch woofer , 5 inch cone midrange and a one and a half inch tweeter. Rock music fans love them because of the great presence.

These speakers have a personality , you might like the sound. I use JBL's but they are much larger. I would never use a subwoofer made by another manufacture.

[JohnMichael]

Don't mix and match speakers. If your JBL are lacking bass and they do. get larger JBL's., if you like the JBL sound. Remember many speakers built in the days of your 100's were very colored. JBL's tended to color the mid range. To get any kind of decent bass from JBL s you need the larger JBL's. Example the L200 which uses a 15 inch woofer.

When you mix and match speakers you create many problems. Maybe you are not a critical listener , if so then it doesn't matter , if you are then don't match JBL's with a
speaker that maybe very different.

The speakers Klipsch put in their cabinets were generally of lower quality than the speakers used by JBL.
A 1974 Consumers Digest test report of the JBL 100 Century reported " The bass ends and starts fading around 70Hz. Which contributes to a pronounced edgy brightness of the sound.
Indeed this brighness became downright hardness on much material, Coloration of sound is well above average "
Your speaker are very efficent. Using a 12 inch woofer , 5 inch cone midrange and a one and a half inch tweeter. Rock music fans love them because of the great presence.

These speakers have a personality , you might like the sound. I use JBL's but they are much larger. I would never use a subwoofer made by another manufacture.



Melvin he was asking for advice on how to hook up what he already owns and not your views on the different products. Many use subs of different manufacture than their main speakers. Some companies such as REL specialize in subs.

mbeigh feel free to use the Klipsch to fill in with some bass. I would set the crossover frequency around 40hz which is the lowest and then increase it if there seems to be a gap in response. I would set the phase switch to the setting that gives you the better bass.

[Ajani]

thanks for reply. It is a SW-8 klipsch. On back of speaker have input and output rca plugs and left and right speaker cable hookups to speakers and from amplifier.
Also phase switch and level dial and lowpass dial 40-120.

thanks
M Beigh

Based on my limited knowledge of subs... I would say YES... you can integrate the sub into your current system....

either

1) If you have an additional 'preamp' output on your Preamp, then run rca cables from that to the rca input of the sub...

or

2) Run the speaker wire from the Amplifier into the subwoofer input and run the output from the sub to the speakers....

I can't tell you what to set the sub at between 40-120, hopefully one of the experts will jump in with suggestions...

EDIT: Looks like JM has already said what you should set it at..

Good Luck...

[anamorphic96]

mbeigh,

Go with what John Michael said.

Yes you can use different brands of subs with your speakers. Melvin's info is completely wrong when it comes to subs. As far as the JBL's being colored and hard sounding. That is true. The only time you want to keep the same brand and line of speaker is when you are setting up a home theater. When you mix and match brands with a HT you can get an uneven tonal balance across the front stage which can make the panning of effects, dialog, and music to sound uneven.

Mixing your sub with different speakers is not a problem. Just make sure you cross them over where the main speakers roll off and you get the level of the sub to blend so you can't notice it's there. As well as finding good placement so it does not sound muddy or poorly defined.

[mbeigh]

Thamks for all your help. I have some new speaker wire ordered and will try the sub with my system when it arrives. I already knew to set the sub lowpass at 40. If I don't like it, I will return the sub to my home theater system and look for different speakers

M Beigh

[filecat13]

The sub and your L100s should coexist without problems if set up as others have advised.

It's a popular pastime to denigrate L100s, but they are classic monitors that outsold all competitive brands in the same market segment and established JBL's reputation in the consumer market. They are also long lived and rock solid. Unless they are seriously abused, they just keep on playing.

I still have the original pair I bought in 1970, and I play them at least a couple times a week in an analog LP system. It's how I listened to LPs for a decade, so it's the sound I still prefer.

When they are described as harsh I assume the poster has heard them over an extended period and come to this conclusion through a reasonable examination, rather than jumping on the bandwagon of en vogue bashers. I have to acknowledge their subjective evaluation as being as valid as mine. However, it is not the subjective opinion I have of the L100s and if you enjoy them, you should be proud to have one of the iconic speakers of all time.

Using them with a sub will change the overall sound of the L100s, probably for the better. At least in my experience, it helps solidify the LF and makes the midrange less forward sounding.

Good luck, and enjoy.

[melvin walker]

The sub and your L100s should coexist without problems if set up as others have advised.

It's a popular pastime to denigrate L100s, but they are classic monitors that outsold all competitive brands in the same market segment and established JBL's reputation in the consumer market. They are also long lived and rock solid. Unless they are seriously abused, they just keep on playing.

I still have the original pair I bought in 1970, and I play them at least a couple times a week in an analog LP system. It's how I listened to LPs for a decade, so it's the sound I still prefer.

When they are described as harsh I assume the poster has heard them over an extended period and come to this conclusion through a reasonable examination, rather than jumping on the bandwagon of en vogue bashers. I have to acknowledge their subjective evaluation as being as valid as mine. However, it is not the subjective opinion I have of the L100s and if you enjoy them, you should be proud to have one of the iconic speakers of all time.

Using them with a sub will change the overall sound of the L100s, probably for the better. At least in my experience, it helps solidify the LF and makes the midrange less forward sounding.


Good luck, and enjoy.

If you will read my post carefully I never said the L100 was harsh , that was a quote from
a test by Consumers Digest in 1973. I have heard the L100's for my taste they are to bright
and lacking in good base.

I have been listening to JBL's for almost 50 years. I have heard most of the high end JBL speaker systems used in a number of listening situations.
You can add a sub woofer to any speaker . I believe that if a speaker is designed correctly there is no need for a sub woofer.

As reported in Consumers Digest the L100's are great for rock music. As are most of the lower priced JBL's. Klipsch did not manufacture very good speakers The Lansing speakers were much better made. Klipsch did make an outstanding corner horn , the Klipschorn. The speakers in that speaker were second rate. Many audiophiles used other speakers in the Klipschorn such as Lansings , Jenson and Electro-Voice.

If it was my system I would substitute the Klipsh for Lansings for balance. Ebay has a number of higher end Lansings . Use the L-100 in front and a pair of higher end JBL's
for the bass for a more balanced sound. The cheaper way is to use a sub woofer.
That is my opinion.

[JohnMichael]

That is my opinion.


Follow it at your peril.

[melvin walker]

The sub and your L100s should coexist without problems if set up as others have advised.

It's a popular pastime to denigrate L100s, but they are classic monitors that outsold all competitive brands in the same market segment and established JBL's reputation in the consumer market. They are also long lived and rock solid. Unless they are seriously abused, they just keep on playing.

I still have the original pair I bought in 1970, and I play them at least a couple times a week in an analog LP system. It's how I listened to LPs for a decade, so it's the sound I still prefer.

When they are described as harsh I assume the poster has heard them over an extended period and come to this conclusion through a reasonable examination, rather than jumping on the bandwagon of en vogue bashers. I have to acknowledge their subjective evaluation as being as valid as mine. However, it is not the subjective opinion I have of the L100s and if you enjoy them, you should be proud to have one of the iconic speakers of all time.

Using them with a sub will change the overall sound of the L100s, probably for the better. At least in my experience, it helps solidify the LF and makes the midrange less forward sounding.

Good luck, and enjoy.

JBL's reputations was established long before the L100's. JBL's reputations was established in the 1950's. The speaker system that made JBL was the Hartsfield , which was featured on the front page of Look Magazine as the ideal speaker for the home.
The Hartsfield was later exhibited in the U.S.S.R as part of the American Dream music system.

The Hartsfield is still revered by audiophiles alone with the Ranger Paragon as examples of JBL's engineering. Both speakers today bring prices that is as much as 50 times their original price. When you can find one. Listed in a previous post was the company that was reproducing Hartsfields , the asking price was $17,000 for one , That speaker system
did not use the famous 375 driver , reputed the be the best mid-range driver ever made.

Some would argure that the AR'3a was that finest small speaker made. Ar was the number one selling speaker in th emarket with the L100's for several years. As a matter of fact AR for many years was the number one selling speaker period !
There was no need to use sub woofers with either the Hartsfield or Paragon !
The other side !

[filecat13]

If you would read closely and get down off your high horse, you'd discern that not every comment is about you. In fact, I can't believe I'm wasting my time responding to you.

Yet, since you saw the need to quote my post not once but twice, I can only assume you were confused and not aware that you had already proven you don't know what you're writing about in the first one. You are in no position to lecture me about JBL, its history, its success, its premier products, or its place in the development of loudspeaker design. You are making random points with no connection to any rational line of thought or any reflection of actual history.

It was Life Magazine (not Look) in 1953 that the Hartsfield was first mentioned in and in 1955 (in Life) that it was part of the Dream Set at an astounding $1625. Neither the Hartsfield nor the Paragon were top selling speakers, though they helped to establish the image of JBL as a quality speaker manufacturer. However, they never were popular in the sense that the average Joe could have one. It was in fact the L100 that brought JBL into the mainstream consumer market, and its success popularized many other JBL models both during and after that time.

You may think you can rewrite history by pulling an incorrect factoid out of your hat, but in reality you merely reinforce your ignorance by grabbing meaningless tidbits out of your spotty recollections and scattering them like birdshot, hoping to perhaps hit at least one target. Yet you miss, miss, and miss again. We are not fooled.

You could be an asset to this site, yet you persist in removing the -et by making ridiculous claims and posting nonsense. Please believe me when I write this: it's not about you. Except for this post, I have not and will not reply to your postings in anything that I write. If you read something of mine, and you think it might be aimed at you, it is not. Please do not waste my time or the OP's time by trying to respond to or attack my posts. They truly have nothing to do with you.

And to the OP, my apologies for placing this in your thread.

[melvin walker]

If you would read closely and get down off your high horse, you'd discern that not every comment is about you. In fact, I can't believe I'm wasting my time responding to you.

Yet, since you saw the need to quote my post not once but twice, I can only assume you were confused and not aware that you had already proven you don't know what you're writing about in the first one. You are in no position to lecture me about JBL, its history, its success, its premier products, or its place in the development of loudspeaker design. You are making random points with no connection to any rational line of thought or any reflection of actual history.

It was Life Magazine (not Look) in 1953 that the Hartsfield was first mentioned and in 1955 in Life that it was part of the Dream Set at an astounding $1625. Neither the Hartsfield nor the Paragon were top selling speakers, though they helped to establish the image of JBL as a quality speaker manufacturer. However, they never were popular in the sense that the average Joe could have one. It was in fact the L100 that brought JBL into the mainstream consumer market, and its success popularized many other JBL models both during and after that time.

You may think you can rewrite history by pulling an incorrect factoid out of your hat, but in reality you merely reinforce your ignorance by grabbing meaningless tidbits out of your spotty recollections and scattering them like birdshot, hoping to perhaps hit at least one target. Yet you miss, miss, and miss again. We are not fooled.

You could be an asset to this site, yet you persist in removing the -et by making ridiculous claims and posting nonsense. Please believe me when I write this: it's not about you. Except for this post, I have not and will not reply to your postings in anything that I write. If you read something of mine, and you think it might be aimed at you, it is not. Please do not waste my time or the OP's time by trying to respond to or attack my posts. They truly have nothing to do with you.

And to the OP, my apologies for placing this in your thread.

You can rant and rage , The JBL L100 Century was a bad speaker, I have yet to see a test report that did any thing but criticize the L 100 speakers.
The AR's out sold the L100 by a mile. The L100 test report I posted by Consumers
Digest quote: This is a speaker system with a definite personality of it's own,and coloration of sound is well above average "

The JBL Hartsfield sold for $ 726.00 when introduced in 1954.it was a two-way system.
In 1964 a tweeter was added the last year of manufacture Hartsfield never cost for$1625.00. In 1963 the price quote by Stereo Hi-F Directory was $993.00 In 1964 the Harsfield with tweeter installed sold for $1250.00. It was life magazine that called the Hartsfield "the ultimate dream speaker " you are correct.

Having owned a pair of Hartsfields for 41 years I think I know a little about them. I will not comment on your remarks regarding me. It is a waste of my time.
I have owned one other JBL speaker system the JBL C 34 ,with the 001 speaker system.
I have listened to the L100's on several occasions , I considered buying a used pair for my daughter. I choose AR2a's. There were some bad speakers built in the 60's in my opinion the JBL L100 Century's was one of those speakers.
That is my opinion.

[filecat13]

Oh look! an ignore button. :14:

[filecat13]

For careful readers, here's the original copy on the Dream Set, which was listed at $1625 for the SET as I wrote in the original mention.

My gosh, it's like stepping in quicksand or slap fighting a chimpanzee... my apologies again to mbeigh. Ignore button at full power.

[markw]

Ya gotta love how he jumps into a thread and, rather than help the poster, twists the thread into his own personal soapbox where he can denigrate someone else's equipment and tastes.

And some argue he's not an intentional troll?

For the OP, everyone else's advice here is useful and meant to help, including mine.

You have several options on connecting a subwoofer:

1a) Line level, via the preamp output, and filtering out the lows from the main amp and speakers: For this, you would feed the preamp out to the sub's line level (RCA jack) inputs. then, feed the line level outputs to the power amp's inputs, thereby inserting the sub between the amps.

1b) Line level, via the preamp output, but retaining the full frequency range to the main amp and speakers: You get two "Y" connectors, with one male and two female RCA connectors. Insert the male RCA plug into the preamp out and send one side to the power amp and the other side to the sub's line level input. You don't need anything on the sub's line level output.

2a) Speaker level and filtering out the lows from the speakers. Basically the same as 1a except the sub is between the main amp and the speakers.

2b) Speaker level but retaining the full frequency range to the speakers. simply connect the sub's inputs in parallel the the main speakers. The high input impedance of the sub will prevent it from causing a drain on the amp.

Personally, I use 1b with the crossover set to low pass below 55 - 60 hz but YMMV.

And, welcome, this can be a fun and useful site once you learn who to ignore.

[GMichael]

Oh look! an ignore button. :14:

But then what would I get to laught at each day? Pix is already missing. Anyone notice that?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Pix was off Thursday and Friday, or is that Friday and Saturday, but was back in bidness Sunday/Monday morning.

[Groundbeef]

Pix was off Thursday and Friday, or is that Friday and Saturday, but was back in bidness Sunday/Monday morning.

Pix just wasn't here. He was working his other job stocking shelves at "Crappy Advice R Us". Incidently, he gets free samples, and typically uses them here on this board.

It also appears that is where Mr. Walker shops for his blather. I wonder if he buys it, and his colostomy bags in bulk (He packs them full of BS)?

[GMichael]

As long as someone keeps up on the crazy posts, then it's OK. I've got to have some kind of comic relief during the day. Otherwise I might have to go postal.

[Groundbeef]

As long as someone keeps up on the crazy posts, then it's OK. I've got to have some kind of comic relief during the day. Otherwise I might have to go postal.

Go postal? What do you need to go there for? You know they sell stamps at the grocery store now? You can pick up your lottery tickets, get some stamps, and have Melvin bag it up all real nice like. Supplements his social security/medicare benefits. Plus he looks real smart in his red smock.

[bobsticks]

Having owned a pair of Hartsfields for 41 years I think I know a little about them. I will not comment on your remarks regarding me. It is a waste of my time.
I have owned one other JBL speaker system the JBL C 34 ,with the 001 speaker system.
I have listened to the L100's on several occasions , I considered buying a used pair for my daughter. I choose AR2a's. There were some bad speakers built in the 60's in my opinion the JBL L100 Century's was one of those speakers.
That is my opinion.

Assuming that all this is true you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, in this instance you're tendency to discuss the very narrow area of audio reproduction about which you are familiar leads the conversation off-topic. The gentleman simply wanted to know whether it was possible to connect his sub to his existing system and, presumably, specifics on how to go about doing it.

It is possible that in a different and more appropriate post mbeigh might want to learn about the history of audio. It's also possible that he might be interested in some innovations of the last fifty years which would rule you out. In any case, in this thread the guy just wanted to get his system up and running. Was your post in any way helpful? Could he listen to music after you subjected him to your rambling and subjective "history lesson"?

Peer long and hard through the thorazine haze, melvin. You'll see it eventually.

[JohnMichael]

Assuming that all this is true you are certainly entitled to your opinion. However, in this instance you're tendency to discuss the very narrow area of audio reproduction about which you are familiar leads the conversation off topic. The gentleman simply wanted to know whether it was possible to connect his sub to his existing system and, presumably, specifics on how to go about doing it.

It is possible that in a different and more appropriate post mbeigh might want to learn about the history of audio. It's also possible that he might be interested in some innovations of the last fifty years which would rule you out. In any case, in this thread the guy just wanted to get his system up and running. Was your post in any way helpful? Could he listen to music after you subjected him to your rambling and subjective "history lesson"?

Peer long and hard through the thorazine haze, melvin. You'll see it eventually.




Must catch my breath.

[Rich-n-Texas]

...Peer long and hard through the thorazine haze, melvin. You'll see it eventually.
If history is a teacher Bobby, it's not likely. Not likely at all.

[emaidel]

I have yet to see a test report that did any thing but criticize the L 100 speakers.
The AR's out sold the L100 by a mile.

Not so. In 1978, Julian Hirsch wrote a rather glowing review of the L-100 in "Stereo Review." Most in the industry felt the speaker wasn't an accurate reproducer, but readily accepted that its "west-coast sound" was such that many liked a great deal. Also, none could argue the superb build quality, and the fact that the speaker could play really loud without distorting, driven by a 45 watt/channel receiver.

The AR2ax sold at a discount for $100 each. The AR3a sold, discounted, for $250 each. The L-100 was "fair-traded" at $297 each. That's an apples to oranges comparison. Almost any $100 loudspeaker outsold one at $300. The AR3a, by the time the L-100 was introduced was already "old news."

[markw]

AR3a vs. JBL L-100. East Coast vs. West Coast. Yin vs. Yang. Hot vs. Cold. to-ma-to vs. to-mah-to, and all that.

If one liked one, you can bank on them hating the other. So, how did AR speakers get into this discussion anyway?

Oh, yeah, that crazy old coot who doesn't offer advice* on the questions asked, but just uses the post as a springboard to criticize the posters equipment, taste, and manhood.

OP. just ignore mel. He's like the crazy uncle that sits in the corner reminicising on the "good old days", drools, poops his depends, occasionally shouts obscenities, and pinches the nurses' fanny.

*and that's good in a way. The one and only piece of advice he offered was dead wrong! The whole forum was all over that like flies on a pile of shiite, which is a fairly fitting analogy.

[bobsticks]

Must catch my breath.

Jah, and I'm playin' nice.

[E-Stat]

You have several options on connecting a subwoofer:

1a) Line level, via the preamp output, and filtering out the lows from the main amp and speakers: For this, you would feed the preamp out to the sub's line level (RCA jack) inputs. then, feed the line level outputs to the power amp's inputs, thereby inserting the sub between the amps.

1b) Line level, via the preamp output, but retaining the full frequency range to the main amp and speakers: You get two "Y" connectors, with one male and two female RCA connectors. Insert the male RCA plug into the preamp out and send one side to the power amp and the other side to the sub's line level input. You don't need anything on the sub's line level output.

2a) Speaker level and filtering out the lows from the speakers. Basically the same as 1a except the sub is between the main amp and the speakers.

2b) Speaker level but retaining the full frequency range to the speakers. simply connect the sub's inputs in parallel the the main speakers. The high input impedance of the sub will prevent it from causing a drain on the amp.

Personally, I use 1b with the crossover set to low pass below 55 - 60 hz but YMMV.

And, welcome, this can be a fun and useful site once you learn who to ignore.
What Mark said.

rw

[emaidel]

It's funny how this industry is now, and has always been, so full of those who absolutely know what's good, and what isn't. Even before I began selling audio equipment several old-timers in an audio room bitterly condemned the AR turntable as "a piece of junk." They couldn't have been more wrong: my purchase of my AR turntable, way back in '64, was one of the most sastisfying ever. I sold dozens and dozens of them eventually to very satisfied customers, and recommended it highly to my friends.

When transistorized equipment was first introduced, many disliked the sound of solid state equipment when compared to tube equipment, claiming tubes were "warmer." That was around the late 60's, and that debate still rages on.

At ESS, one of my reps asked me what speakers I owned. When I told him I owned Dahlquist DQ-10's, he resonded with, "I'd rather listen to two dixie cups tied together with string." That was back in '79, and guess which speakers I'm still listening to?

A business partner one year was determined to convince me that the JBL L-110 was an "accurate" and very high quality loudspeaker, and so he lent me his samples. I had several acquaintances over my house at the time, and played something on my DQ-10's, then disconnected them and played the same thing on the L-110's. All of us thought the same thing: the L-110's sounded awful. But my partner still insisted he was right, and the rest of us wrong.

Then came audiophile-grade speaker wire and interconnects. Did they make any difference? Yes, they did, or NO, they didn't. It simply depended on whom you spoke to, and it still does.

The biggest debate still continues, and that's the "CD vs. LP" debate, or digital vs. analog. I suspect that's one that will never end, but one good thing will come of it: manufacturers of either CD players or turnable/cartridge combos will continue to make their products better and better, in an effort to "prove" one's superiority over the other, and along the way, consumers will have the opportunity to purchase better and better equipment, whether it be digital or analog.

It's still a fun business, with strong opinions all over the map. That's why we have sites like AR and others, so we can share our opinions and observations with others.

And what was the purpose of this thread originally? I dunno - I forgot.