5 new speakers for a 7.1 receiver [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

PDA

View Full Version : 5 new speakers for a 7.1 receiver



omikey
03-03-2004, 04:21 PM
I'm upgrading :-)

OK, so I'm about to buy a Denon 3803 and I am going to put 5 new speakers on it.

Here's the room specs ..... 19x19 and the main entrance is an open wall about 12 feet wide, you come in from the foyer and this space is open. On the opposite side it's all glass with french doors out onto the deck. Ajacent to on the left is another opening about 6-8 feet going into the kitchen. In the corner closest to the main entrance there's a closet (more on this later).
The room has a cathedral ceiling to a height of about 18 feet.

I am considering putting in these speakers:

5 Boston's
The front main must be bookshelf due to the fireplace (the plasma will go above the fp). So I'm considering the VR-M50's for these (list at $700/pair)

The center will be the VR-MC (list at $600)

The surrounds will be the VR-MX (list at $800/pair).. the reason for these is because of the dipole .... remember the closet ? well one chair has to sit a little further into the space becuase of it, and as such I can't get both of the speakers located on the back wall, so I was thinking that this type of speaker would provide better dispersion of the sourround sound in the back of the room.

I currently have a Kenwood 150 watt sub ... have had suggestion to consider upgrading this. I need your opinions here too pls, thx. What might I consider putting in here, how big ? what brand ? why ?

So, what are some of the opinion's out there regarding this configuration.

Are there better choices to be made for the same amount of money ?

Any thoughts on the rear speaker placement ?

Thanks,
Mikey

Bryan
03-04-2004, 06:21 AM
What is your total budget for everything, including the sub? What are your current speakers?

As a general rule, the total cubic footage of the rooms and openings dictate how much sub you will need. If you like reference level bass or a little more and are a bass freak you will likely want something along the lines of dual VMPS Larger Subwoofers and something to power them with. If you want good but not necessarily overpowering yet something you can feel, the HSU VTF-3 (http://www.hsustore.com/vtf3.html) coupled with bass shakers could be right up your alley. If you want reference level bass in a single sub and have a Crown K1 amp or something similar laying around and can afford the best for HT, the SVS B4-Plus likely is what you desire.

Do not be surprised if the cost of the sub equals or exceeds the cost of the speakers.

omikey
03-04-2004, 01:23 PM
What is your total budget for everything, including the sub? What are your current speakers?

Do not be surprised if the cost of the sub equals or exceeds the cost of the speakers.
Bryan - total budget for everything is about $2500. I'm hoping to get the Denon AVR 3803 and 5 speakers for that amount. Now I have to add on top of that an upgrade for the sub .... I may have to live with the sub that I have now for another year until I recover from this grand event :-)

Current system consist of this:
JVC AVR RX-884VBK - this unit is about 5 or so years old. It's a 5.1 system that runs at 120watts/channel into 8 ohms with a range of 20 - 20kHz with .02 distortion

speakers:

sub - Kenwood model 1050SW (150watt sealed unit) front firing. This sub switches listening modes between music and movie modes. Where the movie mode accentuates the deep bass sounds to increase the impact of the soundtrack. It has a crossover slope adjustment switch to go between 12 and 24 db / oct.

mains, center and surrounds are all Pinnacle:

Mains are the Classic Gold Reference model. Rear vented, 1" liquid cooled gold dome tweeter, (2) 6.5" woofers with rubber surronds, freq range 29-21kHz plus/minus 3db, crossover freq is 2.5kHz, power rated at 20-200 watts RMS per channel

Center is the Classic Gold Center model. 2-way, 2nd order suspension speaker, 1" liquid cooled gold dome tweeter, (4) 5.25" fibercone woofers with rubber surronds, freq resp is 80-21kHz plus/minus 3db, power rated at 20-200 watts RMS per channel

Surrounds - Pinnacle model AC-400 -- I have no specs on them.


I am changing all of this because we moved into a new house last Aug. and there is no room for the tower speakers so I have to go to bookshelf for the front mains. Since I have to put in new mains, I felt that I have to have a matching center ..... might as go all out and put in matching surrounds too. I think I want better dispersion in the back then the reflective/directive type of surround the Pinnacle is. That's why I was looking that the MX series becasue of the dipole type of speaker.

Thanks,
Mike

plextor guy
03-04-2004, 03:36 PM
I've come to the conclusion that unless you're building a dedicated home theater or if you have an ideal layout for multichannel music (again probably a home theater), surround is a huge waste of time and resources. The novelty quicky wears off quickly. Besides, when you're watching a movie most of you concentration is on dialog and visuals. Enhancement of audio by going multichannel is minimal at best. Invest in a good 2.1 system and don't look back - imho.

omikey
03-04-2004, 06:19 PM
I've come to the conclusion that unless you're building a dedicated home theater or if you have an ideal layout for multichannel music (again probably a home theater), surround is a huge waste of time and resources. The novelty quicky wears off quickly. Besides, when you're watching a movie most of you concentration is on dialog and visuals. Enhancement of audio by going multichannel is minimal at best. Invest in a good 2.1 system and don't look back - imho.
Plextor - Interesting that you would point out that the novelty wears off quickly. I haven't seen many (if any) other remarks in this tone.
I do recall that after I put in the surrounds initally how they were SO COOL, then, shortly thereafter how few times we (only the wife and I) have actually used them. It's been very limited for sure. I'm inclined to use or want to listen to them much more than is she ..... but just the same it's limited. Certainly you don't use them with broadcast tv, and for music ? I'd say not so much, so they have limited purpose/use ..... unless of course you watch a lot of HT ....... in the big scope of everything the cost of the surrounds is minimal so adding them is no big deal.
It's the mains, center, AVR, sub .....all that stuff that has to be right just to set the stage so to speak.

Thanks for you opinion, it's always good to get other's perspective.

Mikey

Woochifer
03-04-2004, 07:47 PM
Using five identical speakers all the way around is actually an ideal configuration. Use three identical speakers up front if you're using a plasma or other wall-mounted flat screen. If there's enough room underneath the plasma screen for a third main speaker, that's actually what you should go with for the best voice matching. If you go with the horizontal center speaker, do some listening and make sure that the VR-M center speaker sufficiently matches the mains, because I remember that the center speaker that Boston matches to the CR and VR series had some notably different tonal characteristics.

As far as the surrounds go, you're fine sticking with a 5.1 configuration given that there's very little material on the market specifically encoded for back surround playback. Also, if you plan to have your sofa up against the backwall, you're best off staying with 5.1 because using a odd placement just to squeeze the back surround speakers into the setup will likely do a lot more harm than good as far as your surround imaging goes.

Also, I'm not really a fan of dipolar surround speakers. They convey a big soundfield for ambient cues, but a lot of the directional effects with movies and pinpoint imaging with multichannel music gets lost with dipoles. I much prefer direct firing speakers, and if you plan to listen to a lot of multichannel SACD or DVD-A, then direct firing surround speakers are preferable IMO. It's more a preference thing, but you should listen to both configurations and see what you like better.

The placement that I would recommend that you start with is the ITU reference placement standard. It's frequently used for multichannel music mixing, but I've also found it useful with movie soundtracks as well. The diagram is below. Once you have the speakers set up in this configuration, then you can tweak with the placement and see what changes you prefer. Keep in mind that if you choose to go with dipolar surrounds, then the speakers should be perpendicular to the listening position.

http://www.soundstage.com/surrounded/pics/200307_itu.gif

Dolby recommends that if you use direct firing speakers for both movies and multichannel music, you should elevate the speakers about 2' above ear level and point them directly at one another to diffuse the sound and retain just enough of the directionality. I think 1' above ear level is fine, and more ideal for multichannel music. Going higher diffuses the sound more, which is advantageous for most movie soundtracks.

Woochifer
03-04-2004, 08:00 PM
I've come to the conclusion that unless you're building a dedicated home theater or if you have an ideal layout for multichannel music (again probably a home theater), surround is a huge waste of time and resources. The novelty quicky wears off quickly. Besides, when you're watching a movie most of you concentration is on dialog and visuals. Enhancement of audio by going multichannel is minimal at best. Invest in a good 2.1 system and don't look back - imho.

It doesn't take a dedicated home theater to use a proper configuration for multichannel. Any room large enough to arrange the speakers in the ITU reference layout (diagram posted above) will work fine for multichannel. If you haven't tried a multichannel speaker laid out in this arrangement with the appropriate level matching and delay timing, then you really haven't heard multichannel the way it was supposed to be heard.

I hardly regard 5.1 as novelty. If anything, it's not enhancement of anything, it's merely playing back a soundtrack the way it was originally mixed and meant to be heard. With modern full bandwidth discrete multichannel soundtracks, 5.1 is not a novelty, it's a necessity if you want to play something back the way it's supposed to be heard. The whole point of surround sound is to create a complete envelopment of the viewer to take them into the scene. It adds significantly to the experience with a movie. If anything, playing a 5.1 soundtrack in 2.1 is a distortion of the original source because the multichannel elements have to get mixed down to two-channels in preset proportions. The mixdown is done automatically by the processor without regard for the center imaging or the appropriate levels for surround effects getting steered to the front speakers. If you wind up with something that has any kind of appropriate channel separation and balance between sound elements, it's more by accident than by design.

omikey
03-06-2004, 06:17 AM
Using five identical speakers all the way around is actually an ideal configuration. Use three identical speakers up front if you're using a plasma or other wall-mounted flat screen. If there's enough room underneath the plasma screen for a third main speaker, that's actually what you should go with for the best voice matching. If you go with the horizontal center speaker, do some listening and make sure that the VR-M center speaker sufficiently matches the mains, because I remember that the center speaker that Boston matches to the CR and VR series had some notably different tonal characteristics..
Wooch - Thanks for the pointers here. I will have to go with horizontal center so I'm certainly looking for a 3 way match up front. I'll be sure to go in and listen to that Boston VR-MC center along with those VR-M50s to make sure the 3 of them match. I did not listen to the center the last time I was in the store, stupid me. For whatever reason I was 'assuming' that the center would match the bookshelfs ... not to be assumed at these prices :-)



As far as the surrounds go, you're fine sticking with a 5.1 configuration given that there's very little material on the market specifically encoded for back surround playback. Also, if you plan to have your sofa up against the backwall, you're best off staying with 5.1 because using a odd placement just to squeeze the back surround speakers into the setup will likely do a lot more harm than good as far as your surround imaging goes...
OK on this one, and this is the case too. The chairs are up against (almost anyway) the back wall. Not really feasible to think about trying to get a speaker placed behind the chairs.



Also, I'm not really a fan of dipolar surround speakers. They convey a big soundfield for ambient cues, but a lot of the directional effects with movies and pinpoint imaging with multichannel music gets lost with dipoles. I much prefer direct firing speakers, and if you plan to listen to a lot of multichannel SACD or DVD-A, then direct firing surround speakers are preferable IMO. It's more a preference thing, but you should listen to both configurations and see what you like better....
Well my main reason for thinking of dipolars is because there is a closet in one corner of the room (back left when facing the front). One of the main listening/watching chairs (only two of us) sits out from the back wall further than the other and sorta off to the side a bit. So I am thinking that I need the dispersion of sound. I think if I were to use the direct firing speaker that the sound from the left rear would toally miss the person sitting in the right rear (whose chair sits further back in the room and from a sound perspective is more 'in line' with the side of that stupid closet. The closet is (or by design I guess) used for receiving guest and putting their coats in when they arrive. Since you walk directly in from the foyer and into the living room.



The placement that I would recommend that you start with is the ITU reference placement standard. It's frequently used for multichannel music mixing, but I've also found it useful with movie soundtracks as well. The diagram is below. Once you have the speakers set up in this configuration, then you can tweak with the placement and see what changes you prefer. Keep in mind that if you choose to go with dipolar surrounds, then the speakers should be perpendicular to the listening position. ....
Because of that stupid closet and coupled with the fact that the chairs are as far back in the room as I can get them .... I've been thinking that I have to have the surrounds on the side walls. So they would be directly across from each other and out in-line or perpendicular with the two chairs. As much as possible any ways since one of the chairs sits further back in the room than the other .... we can always slide the one chair forward when watching HT, then slide it back later. We rarely are sitting when listening to music .... very festive at those times :-)





Dolby recommends that if you use direct firing speakers for both movies and multichannel music, you should elevate the speakers about 2' above ear level and point them directly at one another to diffuse the sound and retain just enough of the directionality. I think 1' above ear level is fine, and more ideal for multichannel music. Going higher diffuses the sound more, which is advantageous for most movie soundtracks.
This will be a challeng. The entrance into the room is at 7 feet high and about 12 feet wide. I will have to have the left rear speaker on the side wall and it will be about 7.5 to 8 feet (maybe even 9) off the floor. Another reason for thinking dipolar ..... what are you thoughts on this one ?

I wish you could come over and assist me with this setup, and tune the system for me :-)

Thanks for all your help I really do appreciate it.

Mike