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O'Shag
01-30-2008, 10:36 PM
Well, just as we've seen the greatness of America as a manufacturing superpower dwindle away to nothing, now we find one of the greatest American Audio Companies sold to an Italian holding company. Audio Research has been sold. This is not good. Inevitably, it will mean a downward spiral in quality. Audio Research, along with McIntosh, Mark Levinson Krell, Pass Labs, Rowland and Conrad Johnson, have built what many consider to be the finest amplifiers in the world. What has always been a hallmark of Audio Research, besides superb performance, is unequalled service. They can fix any component they've ever built. William Z. -what have you done???:17: :sad:

pixelthis
01-31-2008, 03:08 AM
I was alive during the zenith of western civilization, at least I will have memories.
when I read or watch a documentary on the collapse of various civilizations I wonder what it was like, now I know.
Gone are the days a person of even modest means could buy an almost handbuilt
piece of audo gear, those days are gone.
Tanburg, kenwood, Pioneer, Mcintosh, harmon kardon, Luxman, yamaha, marantz,
AR, polk, etc, most are gone or sold out to the mass market, or something comes over from china on a boat, resembles the original, but without the soul.
Its an industrial version of invasion of the bodysnatchers, you get gear that LOOKS
similar, acts similar, but just isnt the same.
Look at vintage gear, this isnt just the musings of an old man.
THE WORLD OF hi-fi IS ALL BUT GONE , and what little is left is vanishing FAST.:1:

Ajani
01-31-2008, 05:14 AM
I was alive during the zenith of western civilization, at least I will have memories.
when I read or watch a documentary on the collapse of various civilizations I wonder what it was like, now I know.
Gone are the days a person of even modest means could buy an almost handbuilt
piece of audo gear, those days are gone.
Tanburg, kenwood, Pioneer, Mcintosh, harmon kardon, Luxman, yamaha, marantz,
AR, polk, etc, most are gone or sold out to the mass market, or something comes over from china on a boat, resembles the original, but without the soul.
Its an industrial version of invasion of the bodysnatchers, you get gear that LOOKS
similar, acts similar, but just isnt the same.
Look at vintage gear, this isnt just the musings of an old man.
THE WORLD OF hi-fi IS ALL BUT GONE , and what little is left is vanishing FAST.:1:

Sounds like you and Melvin have a lot in common....

I'm not sure why you guys take it so badly when companies produce gear overseas and/or get bought/sold..... Not everything turns to crap because of progress...

Times change and the focus of companies change... some remain high-end... some move from mid level to high end, some move from high to low... some even go through cycles... you still have plenty of options and they are growing....

Of the products listed - Marantz long stopped being American owned and clearly went through a rough patch... ironically, their entire 2 channel audio line (which is expanding btw) has consistently received high critical acclaim (especially in Europe) and their CD players are easily some of the best value in audio today... Yet people on this board still talk about Marantz, like if it's dead... just cuz it's no longer an American company....

audio amateur
01-31-2008, 05:27 AM
Sounds like you and Melvin have a lot in common....

I'm not sure why you guys take it so badly when companies produce gear overseas and/or get bought/sold..... Not everything turns to crap because of progress...

Times change and the focus of companies change... some remain high-end... some move from mid level to high end, some move from high to low... some even go through cycles... you still have plenty of options and they are growing....

Of the products listed - Marantz long stopped being American owned and clearly went through a rough patch... ironically, their entire 2 channel audio line (which is expanding btw) has consistently received high critical acclaim (especially in Europe) and their CD players are easily some of the best value in audio today... Yet people on this board still talk about Marantz, like if it's dead... just cuz it's no longer an American company....

Not only that but most of what he says is BS

Rich-n-Texas
01-31-2008, 05:46 AM
Unions promote mediocrity.

:flame suit on:

Feanor
01-31-2008, 06:15 AM
Unions promote mediocrity.

:flame suit on:

I'm right on queue. :cornut:

Oh, please! Ridiculous! Workers are the victims, not the cause, of the decline of leading western nations. The cause is the greed of shareholders willing to sell out their enterprise, workers, and country to the highest bidder.

Here is the fallacy of Republican "bribe the rich" enconomic policies. Theory has it that if the rich have more money, they will invest it for the benefit of the country. The fact is, (assuming they invest it instead of spending it on luxury goods), they very likely to invest it off shore to the benefit of some other country.

diggity
01-31-2008, 06:28 AM
so, american companies moving out of country eh? is been happening here in australia for years. come to think of it i am pretty sure yanks took our VEGEMITE. actually you can keep it, tastes like crap lol

cheers: dazza

Ajani
01-31-2008, 06:44 AM
I'm right on queue. :cornut:

Oh, please! Ridiculous! Workers are the victims, not the cause, of the decline of leading western nations. The cause is the greed of shareholders willing to sell out their enterprise, workers, and country to the highest bidder.

Here is the fallacy of Republican "bribe the rich" enconomic policies. Theory has it that if the rich have more money, they will invest it for the benefit of the country. The fact is, (assuming they invest it instead of spending it on luxury goods), they very likely to invest it off shore to the benefit of some other country.

It's called a 'Trickle Down Economy'.... I remember seeing a comic strip that best illustrated the concept... it showed a rich Republican urinating on a homeless man....

basite
01-31-2008, 07:05 AM
look at it from the bright side.

Mcintosh is also owned by D&M, which is Japanese. japan has a good name in audio, and D&M only owns quality brands. I can see this is a good thing for Mcintosh. Their product quality has been higher than ever before, and the same for sound quality.
that they are from D&M, doesn't mean D&M tells them what to do, they still have their freedom, and their production and design is still done (and this will probably never change) in their factory in the USA...


Who bought ARC? italians also have good name in the world of Hi fi, don't be scared too fast...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Feanor
01-31-2008, 07:11 AM
so, american companies moving out of country eh? is been happening here in australia for years. come to think of it i am pretty sure yanks took our VEGEMITE. actually you can keep it, tastes like crap lol

cheers: dazza

Never tasted it, but this is what I hear :D

Mr Peabody
01-31-2008, 11:37 AM
If the Italians are known for audio maybe you could enlighten as to what audio. The only brand I know of Is Perreaux, i think that's spelled right, and that stuff had severe reliability problems.

One thing about being owned by "Italian Holding" company, is you are going to see ARC really gain ground in store fronts, you'd be surprised what a little muscle can do.:)

A dealer has ARC here and my opinion is ARC was having some problems, their new gear didn't sound nearly as good as ARC I've heard in the past and the 2 channel market isn't quite as in demand as it once was. I think many high end tube manufacturers are feeling heat from the cheap Chinese stuff being imported in, and some of it isn't bad, Shanling. I don't know how it's doing but I thought Cary made a good move by bringing out the lower priced Audio Electronics line to better compete with that market.

We can't say what will happen with ARC now. There are some good examples of companies being able to maintain there rep after being sold. Others the name had been sold many times and what it is depends on what year you are talking about.

This could be the first of many the way the U.S. dollar has declined. The country is being bought up by foreign money, it was only a matter of time before an audio company got it. It could also be a good thing too, maybe ARC just needed an infusion to become agressive again.

basite
01-31-2008, 12:10 PM
If the Italians are known for audio maybe you could enlighten as to what audio. The only brand I know of Is Perreaux, i think that's spelled right, and that stuff had severe reliability problems.


I'm not a big fan of Perreaux too (aren't they french, btw...)

But I'm looking at the others: Sonus Faber, Opera, Unison Research, Chario, and Pathos ... if there's one thing italy added to the world of hifi, it must be their ability to make stuff look good, and sound good too, those Sonus Fabers can really sound good with the right equipment...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

audio amateur
01-31-2008, 02:28 PM
Bert took the words out of my mouth

Mr Peabody
01-31-2008, 02:37 PM
Italy, French, tomato, tomotto it's all the same :) I did not realize SF or UR was Italian, I'll have to give them that, for sure. I haven't heard of Chario.

O'Shag
01-31-2008, 06:07 PM
Perraux is from New Zealand, and its great stuff.

I fundamentally disagree with some of the comments made.

What many influential people with interests in 'globalization' told everyone about the benefits of moving manufacturing off shore has been somewhat false, and has had the direct effect of all but destroying the United States as a manufacturing super-power.

Some of you from the UK and Europe, and also you Ajani, are talking out your hole in this case, although I respect many of your posts.

I am a Britain, and an American. I've lived in this wonderful country for 25 years. I've lived and spent much time in Southern and Northern California, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Cleveland, Florida, Dallas, Boston and New York. I KNOW this country. It has my heart. I suspect you don't have a clue about the real consquences for this country in the long-term with respect to off-shoring, and you comment without knowing anything of the truth from the inside out, not outside in. You just mimic what you may read in your press and Media.

Would I offer such comments on Canada or Switzerland for example? No. I've not lived in those wonderful countries and been immersed in the culture to offer serious insight.

Live here in the US for 25 years and then your scything comments will have more weight. Do you have many many friends, Americans, who have lost their jobs to outsourcing? I do. Do you know how the move to manufacture everything off-shore has literally devasted places like, Clevelend? I doubt it. You've never even been there is my guess. You find it so easy to make comments about which you know nothing. I'm sorry but this hits me at the heart.

But now for the good news. My own company deals with Fortune 1000 companies and more. I deal with many people in positions of leadership. Many are starting to realize that moving everything off-shore for some applications was an out-and-out mistake.

I understand the pressures William Z felt. Audio Research and the like were manufacturing great amps for the broad consumer market long before the Europeans and Asian audio companies (a few European companies excepted), who in many cases learned and copied designs from the great companies like Audio Research. Speakers are another matter. England and France along with America were at the forefront of speaker development. and clearly influenced the world of speakers as it is today.

I would understand if Audio Research were in the doldrums in terms of stale product development. If you've heard the Reference 3 , Reference 210/610, PH7, and CD7, you'll know that is not the case. The issue, is one of competing with very low priced fare from China. It looks real fancy, and sounds decent for the most part, (I've heard many already). In all but a very few cases, these products sound nothing like the ARC reference gear. And any stuff from China that does, is priced up there also.

All I can say is thank God it was an Italian company and not a Chinese conglomorate that didn't really give a darn about the welfare of Audio Research.

Ajani
01-31-2008, 06:29 PM
Perraux is from New Zealand, and its great stuff.

I fundamentally disagree with some of the comments made.

What many influential people with interests in 'globalization' told everyone about the benefits of moving manufacturing off shore has been somewhat false, and has had the direct effect of all but destroyed the United States as a manufacturing super-power.

Those of you from the UK and Europe, and also you Ajani, are talking out your hole i.e. you don't have a clue what your talking about in this case.
I am a Britain, and an American. I've lived in this wonderful country for 25 years. I've lived and spent much time in Southern and Northern California, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Cleveland, Florida, Dallas, Boston and New York. I KNOW this country. It has my heart. I suspect you don't have a clue about the real consquences for this country in the long-term with respect to off-shoring, and you comment without knowing anything of the truth from the inside out, not outside in. You just mimic what you may read in your press and Media.

Would I offer such comments on Canada or Switzerland for example? No. I've not lived in those wonderful countries and been immersed in the culture to offer serious insight.

Live here in the US for 25 years and then your scything comments with have more weight. Do you have many many friends, Americans, who have lost their jobs to outsourcing? I do. Do you know how the move to manufacture everything off-shore has literally devasted places like, Clevelend? I doubt it. You've never even been there is my guess. You find it so easy to make comments about which you know nothing. I'm sorry but this hits me at the heart.

But now for the good news. My own company deals with Fortune 1000 companies and more. I deal with many people in positions of leadership. Many are starting to realize that moving everything off-shore for some applications was an out-and-out mistake.

I understand the pressures William Z felt. Audio Research and the like were manufacturing great amps for the broad consumer market long before the Europeans and Asian audio companies (a few European companies excepted), who in many cases learned and copied designs from the great companies like Audio Research. Speakers are another matter. England and France along with America were at the forefront of speaker development. and clearly influenced the world of speaker development in general.

I would understand if Audio Research were in the doldrums in terms of stale product development. If you've heard the Reference 3 , Reference 210/610, PH7, and CD7, you'll know that is not the case. The issue has been completing with very low priced fare from China. It looks real fancy, and sounds decent for the most part, (I've heard many already). In all but a very few cases, these products sound nothing like the ARC reference gear. And any stuff from China that does, is priced up there also.

All I can say is thank God it was an Italian company and not a Chinese conglomorate that didn't really give a darn.

Apart from that totally pointless and rude statement by you that I've highlighted... I have little problem with your post...

What you complained about initially was loss in quality because products are not made in the USA... I said that is not neccesarily the case... you've done nothing to disprove that point...

If you had said initally that the problem is about loss of jobs... then I would have agreed with you.. but that's not what your initial post which I responded to was about...

O'Shag
01-31-2008, 06:51 PM
I apologise for my remark - the heat of the moment.... I do respect and like many of your posts

bobsticks
01-31-2008, 07:03 PM
I'm right on queue. :cornut:

Oh, please! Ridiculous! Workers are the victims, not the cause, of the decline of leading western nations. The cause is the greed of shareholders willing to sell out their enterprise, workers, and country to the highest bidder.

Here is the fallacy of Republican "bribe the rich" enconomic policies. Theory has it that if the rich have more money, they will invest it for the benefit of the country. The fact is, (assuming they invest it instead of spending it on luxury goods), they very likely to invest it off shore to the benefit of some other country.


FWIW, in a vaccuum "Trickle Down" works...theoretically. It certainly doesn't work when our own government offers companies tax incentives to move offshore.

Ajani
02-01-2008, 03:25 AM
I apologise for my remark - the heat of the moment.... I do respect and like many of your posts

It's cool... I understand your position and in the heat of the moment, especially over an issue like loss of jobs, it's easy to lose one's cool...

basite
02-01-2008, 03:37 AM
Do you have many many friends, Americans, who have lost their jobs to outsourcing? I do.


hold on, ARC is bought by an Italian Holding company. We're not talking about outsourcing yet you know...

Mcintosh has been owned by japanese companies for around 20 years now (or asian, in general, I don't know from where Alpine is...), and no-one lost their job due to outsourcing there.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Ajani
02-01-2008, 04:35 AM
FWIW, in a vaccuum "Trickle Down" works...theoretically. It certainly doesn't work when our own government offers companies tax incentives to move offshore.

I agree.... I believe one of the current presidential candidates is promoting the idea of tax cuts only for companies that keep jobs in the US... which is how I believe it should be...

It's unfair to the people of a country to give tax cuts to the rich and then have them use it to stimulate someone else's economy....

basite
02-01-2008, 09:56 AM
for those who care

link to stereophile page (http://stereophile.com/news/013008research/)

they're under the same banner as Sonus Faber, and plan to leave everything where it is.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Mr Peabody
02-01-2008, 10:12 AM
Thanks for the link. It looks like Sonus Faber just recently became Italian as of 2007. So much for my opinion, according to the article ARC's last two years were their most successful. I didn't hear how but maybe more people can afford the Reference series than I think.

basite
02-01-2008, 11:16 AM
Thanks for the link. It looks like Sonus Faber just recently became Italian as of 2007. .


no, they were bought by an Italian holding in 2007, but Sonus Faber has always been Italian, before they were on their own I think...

I believe ARC is in good hands :)

I also wonder how people can afford such things, the same with other brands, I heard a $300k Wavac amp a while back, and the first question that came up in me was 'oh so there are actually people buying this?' :D

fantastic amps though, those Wavacs... :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Feanor
02-01-2008, 11:28 AM
...

Live here in the US for 25 years and then your scything comments will have more weight. Do you have many many friends, Americans, who have lost their jobs to outsourcing? I do. Do you know how the move to manufacture everything off-shore has literally devasted places like, Clevelend? I doubt it. You've never even been there is my guess. You find it so easy to make comments about which you know nothing. I'm sorry but this hits me at the heart.

....

Am I missing your point 'Shag? The same sort of problem has had a major impact in Southern Ontario, so I don't have much trouble empathizing with Clevelanders.

I hope you and everyone else understands I'm not bashing the U.S.A. as nation. However I do bash U.S. conservatives -- as I do Canadian conservatives -- at every opportunity.

nightflier
02-01-2008, 11:34 AM
Well, if there is one thing ARC didn't do as well, it was to worry about looks and that is one thing the Italians can definitely help them with. After all, we're talking about the country were Ferrari automobiles, D&G style, and Opera Loudspeakers are from. If the parent company allows ARC to keep the insides as good as they have been but throws a little style, or dare I say, a little sexy curve on the front of those drab ARC preamps, more power to 'em.

I had heard about about ARC's acquisition elsewhere, but didn't know about the Tannoy-Gibson deal. Good article.

O'Shag
02-01-2008, 11:45 AM
Thanks Ajani.

Feanor, No. I know you were not bashing the US. My comment initially was that its a great pity that Audio Research was sold, and I have a real fear that over the long-term it will change the very nature of that company, its service, and its products. I am at least glad of the fact that it was an Italian firm. Its hard to imagine how this firm could help audio research products get better in terms of performance; there is after all a nucleus of talent and experience in audio circuit design already at ARC. Audio Research have been making among the finest products at the forefront of the industry within their areas of specialty, that is to say tube and hybrid electronics. The danger is that quality could be diluted due to cost cutting etc. I hope the new owners will respect that..

O'Shag
02-01-2008, 11:51 AM
You are right NightFlier.

One area that the Italians could help Audio Research though is in making the products look a bit nicer. The Italians are undeniably masters of beauty and style.

pixelthis
02-04-2008, 12:42 AM
Not only that but most of what he says is BS


NOT THAT YOU WOULD KNOW.

I am not one that clings to the past, like some who cling to their turntable like its some kind
of life raft, not some outmoded way of listening to music.
True I have one and still enjoy my vintage records, most of which I BOUGHT NEW.
But they are a part of my life, a part of who I am, I will not make the silly claim of some so called "audiophiles" that they are better than a CD.
I get it, the world is being "globalized", and stuff is being made all over, but someone mentioned "quality", and thats not what its about AT ALL.
Its about personality, soul, and there is a lot of stuff out there that had the persona of a 4 slot toaster. My first cheap stereo with a record changer in the top had more style.
So they try to copy the old forms, but they seem to only have a black and white toner
cartrige, and the look and feel of the stuff put out is only skin deep.
And the world is poorer for it, and the low IQ of most on this board is a blessing , really, most of you wont know what you're missing:1:

Rich-n-Texas
02-04-2008, 05:18 AM
...and the low IQ of most on this board is a blessing , really, most of you wont know what you're missing:1:
Insult after insult towards the majority on this forum; you continue to set yourself up, and you continue to come back for more. I myself wouldn't know, but I guess it's lonely at the top huh?

What is the life expectancy of the adult male troll???

Ajani
02-04-2008, 08:57 AM
NOT THAT YOU WOULD KNOW.

I am not one that clings to the past, like some who cling to their turntable like its some kind
of life raft, not some outmoded way of listening to music.
True I have one and still enjoy my vintage records, most of which I BOUGHT NEW.
But they are a part of my life, a part of who I am, I will not make the silly claim of some so called "audiophiles" that they are better than a CD.
I get it, the world is being "globalized", and stuff is being made all over, but someone mentioned "quality", and thats not what its about AT ALL.
Its about personality, soul, and there is a lot of stuff out there that had the persona of a 4 slot toaster. My first cheap stereo with a record changer in the top had more style.
So they try to copy the old forms, but they seem to only have a black and white toner
cartrige, and the look and feel of the stuff put out is only skin deep.
And the world is poorer for it, and the low IQ of most on this board is a blessing , really, most of you wont know what you're missing:1:

Machines have personalities and souls?

Ummm.... ok then...

@ Rich... I owe you an apology.... now I understand why you wanted a cage fight...