Dirty Little Secrets

[emaidel]

In my time here at AR, and at other sites, I've tried to offer whatever I've gleaned from my experience in the industry to those who might find such information useful and helpful. I hope I've been successful in that endeavor.

There's another side to this industry though, and it's not particularly pretty. It's the proliferation of ego-maniacal, and often drug-crazed idiots who, regrettably, ruined company after company. I'll list just a few in my own history.

LAFAYETTE RADIO

Lafayette Radio was a hugely successful ($110 million/annually), 50+ year-old company that was put out of business in the amazingly short span of about 3 years by one individual - Arthur Blackburn - who was brought in as the company president in 1976. Blackburn not only systematically replaced all the long-standing Lafayette buyers and store managers with his pals from J.C. Penny (from which he came) but actually purchased $15 million (at cost) of obsolete 23- channel CB equipment which he knew would arrive on U.S. shores after the FCC's edict that only 40-channel equipment could be legally sold. Blackburn stupidly believed that everything would fall into a cycle: if that item was not successful at one time, then just put it away in the warehouse for a few years, and when it's popular again, bring it back out and sell it. This was the philosophy he used with the 23-channel CB equipment, and it bankrupted the company.

Most of Lafayette's long-standing buyers were Jewish folks from New York. Blackburn, an avowed anti-semite, actually had the temerity to state one day, "I'm going to clean house of all these aging Jewish shop-keepers." It's susrpising he wasn't shot!

PICKERING

Pickering and Stanton, whose products were identical, and were made with the same parts and on the same assembly lines, were still two fiercely competitive companies, each owned outright by Walter Stanton. Stanton surrounded himself with about 8 or so "yes-men," who all but swore blind allegiance to him, and who Stanton himself trusted implicitly. God help the poor salesman who defied some of the presposterous logic of these yes-men, and tried to tell Stanton the truth. Such people earned the title of being "negative," and, while not always fired outright, were ordered to stay away from the factory for long periods of time.

Fortunately, PIckering made a good product that sounded good, worked well, and held up under abuse. PIckering (and Stanton to a large degree too) was a company that succeeded in spite of itself, especially in light of the view of these yes-men that then newcomer, Audio Technica, was "a flash in the pan," that "would be gone in two weeks."

Pickering had its "Dustamatic Brush," and Stanton its "Longhair Brush" both of which were subject to decades of industry ridicule. The fact was that the brushes actually were highly beneficial in helping the cartridge/tonearm play warped records, in keeping clean records clean and in damping low frequency resonance, but instead of informing the buying public of these benefits immediately, it took me (with the help of some of the company's top engineers) to print a pamphlet, "The Do's and the Don'ts of the Dustamatic Brush Assembly," in 1977, to finally try to put the record straight (no pun intended). By then, however, the damage was all but irreversable.

ESS

ESS had the Heil Air Motion Transformer to its credit, and when I joined the company in 1979, I truly believed the company had a vast potential to be the single largest speaker company in the country, with the best sales story too. Unfortunately, the company's head officers played dirty little games with money. They often stiffed their suppliers, which then put them on credit hold, and put the company in the untenable position of not being able to manufacture speakers for which they had orders, since they didn't have the parts in the first place! Bouncing employees' expense checks didn't encourage much admiration either.

What can you say about a company when the Chairman of the Board, in a sales meeting to all ESS sales personnel, says, "Every dealer is out to screw me, and I'm going to screw them first!" This person declared he wanted to be the center of his own empire (he actually used the word, "empire!") and invested the company's profits in no less than 13 entirelly divergent enterprises, all of which did nothing other than drain the coffers. That the company didn't delcare bankruptcy long before it did is a wonder.

ONKYO

Working for Onkyo was my first experience working for a Japanese company, and my indoctrination to the Japanese work ethic of "business as war." I learned all too quickly that "honor" meant absolutely nothing to the Japanese at Onkyo, and that all of us American "round-eyed infidels" were nothing less than expendable commodities.

In 1982, those of us in the sales department put on a series of dealer pre-shows, at which we invited key dealers to come to various hotels in which we'd rented suites, to show them prototypes of the new line of product the company was planning, and to get their opinions. The results of all of these shows were unamimously negative: the dealers thought the prototypes looked "cheap," or "cheezy," or were at the very least, "non-competitive." We reported all of this back to the Japanese at the company, but nothing whatsoever was done to them, and the new product line that fall arrived exactly as the prototypes had appeared. Sales plummeted from $27 million annually to $18 million, and I'm sure no one reading this needs to guess who took the fall for that.

I learned very quickly that the Japanese in a Japanese-owned company were "beyond reproach," and that "honor" meant absolutely nothing to them. They never admitted to any mistakes, and always blamed us Americans instead.

That's it for this time. Based on the reactions I may get from this thread, I'll either print lots more of these "gory details," or just stop here. 'Hope you enjoyed reading this stuff.

[Feanor]

Thanks, emaidel.

I love to hear stories of corporate mismanagement. I would relate a few of my own except they aren't related to the audio business.

There are many people who insist that goverment can't do anything right and if it's to be done right, leave it to private enterprise. This is an extremely naive notion but right-wing polititians still flog it every day. The idea invoked to justify, e.g. inaction with respect the deplorable state of health care for so many people in the U.S.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks, I found this very interesting and hope you do decide to post more. I worked for an electronics company in the late 80's and early 90's before they went out of business. The company was a distributor as well as had some retail stores. The owner built his business distributing parts where there was a large mark up and then moved to trying to do consumer electronics. The owner just refused to change with the times. With a Wal-Mart in every town selling electronics for what our distributing price was you can see how it didn't take long for this business to disappear along with the "mom & pop" shops we supplied. It wasn't just Wal-Mart, it was also Best Buy and other warehouse mass market stores. We had some good line like Infinity, Kenwood home, Electro-Voice but the owner just wouldn't reduce margin in favor of moving more volume and soon you get a rep for being the highest price and we weren't the only distributor in the U.S. What's odd is he had retail stores and our warehouse was full of older model gear but he wouldn't bring it up on the floor at a proper discount to move it. I enjoyed the time I worked there though. Oh, Stanton was one of our lines. Man was I amazed at the mark up on cartridges. So much so I feel dirty when I have to buy a cart now retail.

Any idea why Kenwood pulled out of the home market? Ever notice that when Carver tried to expand into cassette decks and other components to go with their amps and preamps that they looked like Yamaha? Or, the fact that Carver could never keep a line a float for any length of time. We carried Carver for a while, we called the stuff "boomerangs" because it was surprising when we sold a piece and it didn't come back defective. Did my ears change or did Harmon allow Infinity to go to the dogs? Just requests if you have any insight :)

[Rich-n-Texas]

All the adjectives used above and then some! Absolutely emaidel, keep it coming! I remember Lafayette and Pickering very well, but they just faded away from my conscienceness as time went by. I'm particularly interested in more of Onkyo's history and how Integra sprang from their arrogant and dis-honorable loins.

See Melvin? When presented in a non-pompous a$$ed manner, we here at AR are very receptive to the history, good and bad of audio.

[SlumpBuster]

especially in light of the view of these yes-men that then newcomer, Audio Technica, was "a flash in the pan," that "would be gone in two weeks."


Very nice write up, very good read. For what its worth, my AT cart sounded great all weekend long. :D I hooked up my Goldring last weekend just for fun, but went back the the AT this weekend.

[emaidel]

Well, it seems I sparked some interest. Onkyo's lack of honor wasn't unique to them alone: the same was true of most Japanese audio companies. Pioneer blatantly mistreated its sales manager, firing him only because he was making too much money. Silly him - he made the money he did based on the incentive program the Japanese put together, and he was simply selling so much gear, that his incentives skyrocketed. Rather than thank him for his efforts, the Japanese fired him. Same thing with Onkyo's first sales manager, but at least he was given the line to represent in the New York market

The Integra line had been around for a while and was always a step up from the "standard" Onkyo line. The 1982 lineup I referred to was simply a very big, and arrogant, mistake which the Japanese refused to take the blame for. Once new products were designed, sales again increased.

Markup on cartridges wasn't unique to Stanton: the biggest and most egregious marketing effort for profit was that of "private label" cartridges, and the initiator of such was Audio Technica. A private label cartridge was a standard model from a given manufacturer (the AT-11 for example) sold at greatly reduced cost, and under a different and unique (to the specific dealer) model number. The reason for the reduced cost was quantitiy: such cartridges were purchased in the thousands, rather than dozens, and so AT accepted less profit for greater volume. The price to the dealer for the AT-11 varied all over the place also, due to the packaging used. Ultimately, the loser was the unwary consumer: not having a clue as to what a given model number a dealer was carrying was worth, the $100 or more that hapless consumer spent may more than likely have been for a cartridge that cost the dealer less than $10.

The all-time worst offender of the private label cartridge business was Stereo Village, based in Atlanta, Georgia. The owner/buyer of Stereo Village made it very plain: he would not pay more than $5 for any cartridge from anyone, but he'd place purchase orders for given units of at least 1,000 each time. Not only was he steadfast on the $5, but he also demanded that the manufacturer print a "suggested list price" on each cartridge of $200, and he'd then offer his customers a 50% discount, and sell it for "only" $100. That's $95 profit on a truly lousy cartridge, and this guy actually slept at night!

The purpose behind the private label cartridge business was to allow dealers to make a profit on the turntables they were all but forced to sell at, or near, cost. Aggressive advertising from competing dealers often all but gave away turntables, and to sell a turntable at or below cost wasn't something dealers wished to do. By combining a popular turntable with a private label cartridge, the profit picture turned around. Private label cartridges was one of the industry's biggest black eyes, and thousands and thousands of consumers wound up paying the price.

AT wasn't the only manufacturer in the private label business. Empire (now long gone) sold private label products almost exclusively. I was personally responsible (along with my superior) for developing PIckering's "Exclusive Packaging" program in an effort to compete with AT and Empire, but at least our private label program (Walter Stanton couldn't bear the term "private label," hence the "Exclusive Packaging" name) allowed for dealers to make a nice profit, but still be able to carry several standard TOTL PIckering models, specifically the XV/15-625E and the XSV-3000. While dealers could make a nice profit on the Pickering exclusive numbers, they weren't able to gouge the customers as the AT and Empire programs allowed them to do.

More in a while....

[kelsci]

Really interesting stories, Emaidel. I use to go to the Lafayette store in Jamaica,Queens in the late 50s and 60s. It was a mad house on a Saturday. Pretty busy during the week too. A tremendous inventory of all kinds of electronics too boot. I thought that the reason they might have gone out of business was the way they tried to spread them selves around the country which seemed haphazard in camparison to Radio Shack.with just too many "associate stores" rather than real live branch stores.

I knew years back that essentally Pickering and Stanton cartridges were from the same company but I thought that Stanton was the more "Cadillac" cartridge from that company. I cannot deny that their dust brush was quite good at cleaning records of dust, and as you state most likely contributed to dampening and other factors on a disc too. In So. Fla. here there was a outfit that discounted cartridges during the 80s. called LUSKINS. I was able to try the SHURE M91ED, a Audio Technica something, A Empire something and a pickering 681 eee. My overall favorite was the M91ED for its overall sound reproduction. The Tehnicka and the Empire were close to the Shure but different too. The Pickering lacked midrange emphasis but was clean on the highs and lows and sounded nice anyways.

My brother had the ESS AMT 1b. Some speaker. I did not know how rotten this company was run though. They could have used better foam though. There was trouble with the Heil transformers blowing even though they produced great high frequency sounds. Damm good unique speaker though.

[JohnMichael]

Emaidel thanks for the interesting stories. As I was first learning about audio the ESS speakers were of great interest to me.

[emaidel]

ESS blew the best thing it had - the Heil Air Motion Transformer - via its silly business practices, and on a more technical side, by crossing over the woofer to the Heil at too high a frequency, leaving a lot of "crud" for the woofer to reproduce. At one point in its history, ESS actually shipped 96 AMT-1b speakers to a retailer in Minneapolis (Shaak Electronics) without the Heils installed! The company ran its business so close to the belt, that orders needed to be shown to the bank before payroll could be met, and in this case, even though ESS didn't have the parts to build the Heils for these 96 speakers (the suppliers of the necessary parts had put ESS on credit hold), actually shipping 96 supposedly complete speakers allowed the bank to release funds for payroll.

Shortly before I (and my superior) were laid off, the company had also acquired not only the Dynaco name (the way they ruined that effort is a subject for yet another thread!), but also the rights to build the Gale Loudspeaker. While the ESS-manufactured Gale Loudspeaker sounded OK, it was a far cry from the original. And if you think ESS had a bunch of nuts running it, meeting Ira Gale was something else altogether!

When the "C" series of AMT speakers was designed (around 1982), the crossover was lowered from 1,000HZ to 700HZ, allowing the Heil to truly act as a combination midrange/tweeter unit, and the improvement in sound was significant. Unfortunately, the corporate shenanigans had so outraged so many retailers across the country, that it just about didn't matter.

A few folks tried to resurrect ESS, but without success. I still think that the Heil is an item worth saving, but it's going to take a small fortune to start up yet another speaker company with it.

[Slippers On]

All good stuff emaidel, keep it coming.


Slippers On

[Feanor]

I remember being very impressed with the ESS Heil Air Tranformers speakers back in the '70s. I never owned a pair but I do remember couNseling an acquaintance to by a pair of one of the lower end models; this she did and was very pleased.

Heil-based speakers are available today from Mark & Daniel ...
http://www.mark-daniel.com/

and a Swiss company ...
http://www.precide.ch/eng/eheil/eheil.htm

I would love to do a DIY speaker project using old Heil drivers; the low 700-1000Hz crossover capabiliity is an extremely attractive feature. Pairs turn up occassionally on eBay, and replacement diaphrams are available ...
http://www.speakerrepair.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Category_Code=ESS-Diaphragms

[emaidel]

.

Heil-based speakers are available today from Mark & Daniel ...


and a Swiss company ...


I had no idea. Any clue as to the price of these speakers?

[melvin walker]

Lafayette was much like most audio companies of that era. Times was changing. I can list over a hundred audio companies that by the 1980's was out of business.
Old names in audio. Many were sold to multi -national companies who cared little for quality audio equipment. Some was only to make the change from tubes to transistors.
Burstein -Applebee , Bogen , Fisher , Heath, Knight , Marantz , Realistic , V-M Corp , Gray , Fairchild , Lesa , Rek-0-KUT , Audio Dynamics Gardo , Weathers , Akray , Scott , Eico , Crown , Magnecord , Newcomb , Viking , AR , Bozak , Electro-Voice , Goodmans , Hartley , Jensen , Karlson , University etc. This is only a partical list of American companies that was not around after the 70's.

Was it bad management , dollars spent in research and development , changing taste in audio , poor merchandising are a combination of all four ? One can point their finger at a few companies that may have had poor management , but was that the general rule ?
It was the American companies that disappeared . The same with the disappearance of many American auto companies.

One of the finest tape recording companies bit the dust Ampex . Ampex was unable to meet the competition. Was Crown any different , what about H.H. Scott, Fisher , Bogen all long gone. Stephens speaker company was one of the leading speaker companies of the late 50's early 60's what happen to Stephens ?Who do you blame ? or better yet what do you blame ? Times change , there are losers and winners.
That's capitalism !

[O'Shag]

Perhaps there may have been a cut-throat attitude to begin with, but one thing is clear. The best Japanese products of today reflect an obsessive attention to detail and quality.

[emaidel]

The quality of Japanese products was never an issue. It was the marketing of them, and the "business as war" approach used by many Japanese companies. One of the more despicable business practices was that which is called, "dumping." Dumping is what happens when a manufacturer sells his product for a price that's at or about others' manufacturing, as opposed to retail prices. One of the worst offenders in this arena was Kenwood, and the net result was simply for Kenwood to garner a greater market share.

"Marketing Development Funds," or as it came to be known, "MDF" was another issue. Many Japanese companies offered MDF to their retailers in such huge amounts, that those retailers could sell products at ridiculously low prices, yet still make a profit, much to the detriment of competitors. Instead of developing a market, as the name suggested, MDF merely made it impossible for competitors who didn't receive huge quantities of MDF to sell their products other than at a loss.

Just as often, retailers (Newmark and Lewis in New York was a perfect example) just pocketed MDF to bolster either the bottom line, or the owner's bank account.

I have a particular loathing for Newmark & Lewis based on the horrible dealings I had with them both when at ESS, and then later with ADC. N&L would consistently pay their bills late, but still take the prompt-pay discounts, and frequently take unauthorized deductions from just about all of their invoices for matters never discussed with their suppliers. One time, a huge deduction was taken from an ESS invoice for N&L's internal costs for putting together an advertising program, that didn't even include ESS!

At another time, ADC sent a shipment of brand-new Sound Shaper equalizers for the N&L "Show" that was held annually. These equalizers had to be palatized and shrink-wrapped for security, and I was physically present as the merchandise was brought into the ADC booth one year. I also helped sell each and every piece during the several days of the show. Not to anyone's surprise, N&L not only paid the bill many months late, and took the prompt-pay discount, but had the audacity to claim they were short-shipped well over $10,000 worth of product, which was an out and out lie. They never paid ADC back a cent.

[Mr Peabody]

Some of those companies were still in business after the 70's, I sold Bogen & E-V and Crown is still in business. Bogen amps, at least the ones we sold were all 70v multi speaker application.

[pixelthis]

No company ever admits mistakes, that is taught in business school.
Its not paticular to the Japanese.
IF YOU WANT A MORE GENERAL HISTORY of the electronics world read the book,
KINGS OF THE AIR.
This is a fascinating book, tells how RCA tried to kill FM radio, how the inventor of the vaccume tube, lee deforest, actually was involved in several stock trading scams.
A must read, really.
Anyway thanks for the info, I always wondered what happened to lafayette:1:

[emaidel]

Along those same lines, Michael Chrichton's book, "Rising Sun," while essentially a murder mystery and a piece of fiction, is also a scathing attack on Japanese business practices and has an astonishing 12-page bibliography to back up Chrichton's claims. Don't use the movie of the book as a guide, as it was completely white-washed for fear of offending Asian-Americans. (Chrichton's accusations and my previous posts all had to do with Japanese business people from Japan, and not Asian Americans.)

I was working as the VP of Sales and Marketing for Stanton when the book came out, and I told all of my sales representatives that it was "required reading."

[Feanor]

No company ever admits mistakes, that is taught in business school.
Its not paticular to the Japanese.
IF YOU WANT A MORE GENERAL HISTORY of the electronics world read the book,
KINGS OF THE AIR.
This is a fascinating book, tells how RCA tried to kill FM radio, how the inventor of the vaccume tube, lee deforest, actually was involved in several stock trading scams.
A must read, really.
Anyway thanks for the info, I always wondered what happened to lafayette:1:

Given the way the Japanese government has consistently whitewashed the country's wars in China and the Pacific, it would be easy to image that they are worse than average.

Unlike Germany that has, for the most part, admitted its guilt in WWII and payed conmpensation in many cases. The Japanese for a long time, and still today, tend to deny their guilt for horrendous atrocities. Japanese school text books still systematically down-play, even justify, the country's role in third and fourth decade 20th century affairs.

[melvin walker]

Perhaps there may have been a cut-throat attitude to begin with, but one thing is clear. The best Japanese products of today reflect an obsessive attention to detail and quality.
if you are referring to mid range products. The Japanese built excellent mid range goods.The Japanese high end goods are not as high in quality as European and American goods.

An example the high end Nkamichi Dragon cassette recorder , Japan first attempt to compete with the high end cassette recorders made in Europe.
Revox and Tandberg. The Nkamichi is more likely to have mechanical failure , and is less likely to last as long as the European recorders.
As a result the European cassette has a higher resale value. This same problem exist with many Japanese products.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Bogen amps, at least the ones we sold were all 70v multi speaker application.

I can confirm this. I installed Bogen amps (for PA systems) all throughout the 80's.

[Feanor]

if you are referring to mid range products. The Japanese built excellent mid range goods.The Japanese high end goods are not as high in quality as European and American goods.

....

Owners of, say, Accuphase (http://www.accuphase.com/) products would dispute this point.

[melvin walker]

Owners of, say, Accuphase (http://www.accuphase.com/) products would dispute this point.

I will agree that Accuphase audio equipment is no doubt high end. Will it stand the test of time ?
Many speakers , amps TT , and tape recorders made by American and European audio companies are still around , still performing 50 years later.
I have a pair of James B, Lansing Hartsfield , purchased in 1958 ! they still sound great.
Marantz, McIntosh , Lansing , Revox , Tandberg , Fairchild , Thorens etc , built as far back as the late 50's are still going strong and still bring higher prices today than what they sold for over 50 years ago.

Nakamichi is an example of Japanese high end products lacking longevity. But maybe Accuphase is different.
An example if one bought a Lexus 400 15 years ago and another person bought a BMW 540 in the same year which car would have a higher real sale value today ? The two cars are about the same size and cost about the same.

I also have a Revox A77 purchased in 1967 that still makes excellent recording , has been in for servicing only three times in 40 years ! What have you to say about that ?

[GMichael]

How many 15 year old BMW's still run?

[basite]

I will agree that Accuphase audio equipment is no doubt high end. Will it stand the test of time ?


have you actually ever heard or seen one? let alone own one? Accuphase is equal to Mcintosh, if not better. their products will last forever, and just like Mcintosh, they sound fantastic, have the greatest build quality, are exclusive and everything you want.

Saying Accuphase will not stand the test of time is a cheap insult to the company and the owners of the gear.


This comes from a Mcintosh owner himself (me).


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[melvin walker]

have you actually ever heard or seen one? let alone own one? Accuphase is equal to Mcintosh, if not better. their products will last forever, and just like Mcintosh, they sound fantastic, have the greatest build quality, are exclusive and everything you want.

Saying Accuphase will not stand the test of time is a cheap insult to the company and the owners of the gear.



This comes from a Mcintosh owner himself (me).


Keep them spinning,

Bert.
Where did I post that the Accuphase would not stand the test of time ? I asked the question. Will Accuphase stand the test of time ? McIntosh has been building audio equipment for over 50 years ,
Can you read ???

[Rich-n-Texas]

People here Melvin, even youngsters know how to read between the lines. I took what you said to mean the same thing basite took it for.

[Feanor]

Where did I post that the Accuphase would not stand the test of time ? I asked the question. Will Accuphase stand the test of time ? McIntosh has been building audio equipment for over 50 years ,
Can you read ???

Accuphase as been around for 35 years. The resale price of their old products is, in proportion to their original prices, as good or better than McIntosh' of the same era.

[emaidel]

the high end Nkamichi Dragon cassette recorder , Japan first attempt to compete with the high end cassette recorders made in Europe.
Revox and Tandberg. The Nkamichi is more likely to have mechanical failure , and is less likely to last as long as the European recorders.
.


Sorry, but that's categorically false. The Tandberg 64x, 6000, 3000 and numerous later cassette decks had astronomical failure rates, especially the 6000. I was in the service at the time, and recommended to my fellow GI's that they purchase the Tandberg 6000 over similarly priced Teac models, as Tandberg made superb sounding recordings at 3 3/4, which no Teac ever could or did. Unfortunately, the 6000's that my friends bought all had numerous mechanical problems, as did later production cassette decks. You really ought to get your facts straight before you start spouting them as sacrosanct.

[melvin walker]

Sorry, but that's categorically false. The Tandberg 64x, 6000, 3000 and numerous later cassette decks had astronomical failure rates, especially the 6000. I was in the service at the time, and recommended to my fellow GI's that they purchase the Tandberg 6000 over similarly priced Teac models, as Tandberg made superb sounding recordings at 3 3/4, which no Teac ever could or did. Unfortunately, the 6000's that my friends bought all had numerous mechanical problems, as did later production cassette decks. You really ought to get your facts straight before you start spouting them as sacrosanct.
Let's be specific , the Tandberg model 3014A is revered as one of the finest cassette recorders ever built. Check out the price of this cassette recorder on Ebay.
The Revox 215 and 715 is in the same class as the Tandberg 3014A.
The Nakamichi Dragon placed last when compared with the cassette recorders listed above. The Dragon was the finest cassette recorder built by the Japanese.
Teac is in a lower class of cassette recorders.
Your friend's should spend a little more money and they would have gotten a better Tandberg cassette recorder.
What I am comparing is high end cassette recorders in the $1000 + category.

[melvin walker]

People here Melvin, even youngsters know how to read between the lines. I took what you said to mean the same thing basite took it for.

He quoted me. I hope you are intelligent enough to understand what a quote is ?

What in the hell is reading between the lines ? does it mean that you cannot understand what you read ?
You never cease to amaze me.

[Rich-n-Texas]

If I put my first three fingers up, and you look for the one in the middle, that's the message, that's reading between the lines.

Hope this helps.

[JSE]

35, 50 years whatever. Is that not time tested? Did I miss something? :idea:

[melvin walker]

Accuphase as been around for 35 years. The resale price of their old products is, in proportion to their original prices, as good or better than McIntosh' of the same era.

If you read my post I did not compare McIntosh with Accuphase. I was pointing out that the companies I listed had stood the test of time. I named those companies. Most of those companies have been around more than 50 years , some even longer.Many was no longer building audio equipment in the 1970's.

There was no Accuphase when Marantz interduced his Model one preamp or Fairchild's their 412-1A Transcripton turntable. Accuphase while an excellent audio company ,
is a post 1970 company. McIntosh was producing audio equipment in the 1950's, so were
the other companies I listed.
The fact that a Marantz Model 9A mono power amp which sold for $384.00 in 1963 sells for in excess of $4500 dollars today speaks worlds about a 45 year old piece of audio gear.
a James B. Lansing Ranger Paragram sold for $2250 in 1963 , if you can find one it will sell for $50.000 today. Can Accuphase match those numbers ? What was the price of a top of the line 1975 Accuphase amp ? what is it selling for today ?

[bobsticks]

35, 50 years whatever. Is that not time tested? Did I miss something? :idea:

Amen, Brother Burrito. If I'm still listening to same the disc player 35 years from now it indicates a serious lack of progress in the research and development of audio.

Uuum, are we really talking about cassettes?

[Luvin Da Blues]

Uuum, are we really talking about cassettes?

Yep, 'fraid so :nonod:

[Mr Peabody]

In post 70's the Japanese pretty much took over the American market in electronics. Mac is now Japanese as well as other once famous American brands.. Say what you will but they found some one asleep at the wheel and we've yet to wake up. Of course, now China steps in and does the same thing but cheaper. Most Japanese brands aren't even built in Japan anymore.

[pixelthis]

In post 70's the Japanese pretty much took over the American market in electronics. Mac is now Japanese as well as other once famous American brands.. Say what you will but they found some one asleep at the wheel and we've yet to wake up. Of course, now China steps in and does the same thing but cheaper. Most Japanese brands aren't even built in Japan anymore.


I SAW on one of those "learning channels" about how they put together MACS IN AN
AMERICAN factory.
CHINA HAS TAKEN OVER MOST PRODUCTION BUT THERE STILL IS SOME AMERICAN MANUFACTURING going on.
And mac is and always will be the GOLD standard for high end audio gear.
There never has or ever will be ANYTHING even close.
there are only three types of audio enthusiast .
1. those who have Macs
2. those who want macs
3.those newbies who dont understand what Mac is.
Any comparsion betwen mac and other lesser types of gear is flawed.
Macs stand apart, in a class by themselves:1:

[basite]

I SAW on one of those "learning channels" about how they put together MACS IN AN
AMERICAN factory.
CHINA HAS TAKEN OVER MOST PRODUCTION BUT THERE STILL IS SOME AMERICAN MANUFACTURING going on.
And mac is and always will be the GOLD standard for high end audio gear.
There never has or ever will be ANYTHING even close.
there are only three types of audio enthusiast .
1. those who have Macs
2. those who want macs
3.those newbies who dont understand what Mac is.
Any comparsion betwen mac and other lesser types of gear is flawed.
Macs stand apart, in a class by themselves:1:


um yes, in their own factory...
they even build their own transformers, which is something few companies (still) do...

and yes they're a class apart, but there are still other brands too that produce everything in their own factory. Accuphase comes to mind again...

and what class do you belong to? I have a Mcintosh, but I want more, now what do I do :cornut:

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[basite]

Where did I post that the Accuphase would not stand the test of time ? I asked the question. Will Accuphase stand the test of time ? McIntosh has been building audio equipment for over 50 years ,
Can you read ???


you were asking, but you were asking in such a way that you believed the answer would be 'no'. Now that's assuming, which gives me the right to defend myself.

[Mr Peabody]

Mac was owned by Clarion before going to D&M, it could be possible they've maintained quality of the original gear but I have my doubts. Especially if you've ever heard their preamp processors, there are much better for much less. With this being said I agree Mac is still a good product, just some more than others. Pix Mac is definitely not the last word in audio gear. There are many who surpass them in quality and sound.

[basite]

Pix Mac is definitely not the last word in audio gear. There are many who surpass them in quality and sound.


during their Clarion period, they came up with surround sound (for HT uses), and car audio. Stereo product's quality remained fantastic however, I do feel they're better off at D&M though, they have more freedom now, which results in way better products...

and I agree that there are better products as a Mcintosh (well, sound wise), but Mcintosh is a company with a really special house sound, and if you like that particular house sound, nothing else will do.

they are still quite exclusive and still very high end though. And their sound quality is ever improving, their new MC1.2kw amps are a huge difference over the previous MC1201's, even though spec wise, it's almost the same amp...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[emaidel]

As there are several other threads where Melvin Walker posts half-truths about audio, and can't seem to move beyond 1958, let me try to bring my own thread back on topic, which is/was, "Dirty Little Secrets."

Retailers in the heyday of the business (late 70's) carried the lines of electronics they did mostly for the sake of profit margins, and not because they believed that Kenwood (just as an example) was indeed "better" than Pioneer, or that Marantz was better than JVC, and so on. Most dealers couldn't be faulted for choosing "push" lines of electronics, since having a brand other dealers didn't gave them an exclusive, and a chance to make a decent profit, especially when a brand such as Pioneer was so overly distributed and heavily discounted that making money on it was all but impossible.

That was very true about Pioneer, but there was never anything wrong the the product itself. One dealer, Audio Warehouse, based in Ohio, took a very aggressive and highly unethical approach. Audio Warhouse's key electronics line was Kenwood, not necessarily because it was "better" than others, but likely because the owner of Audio Warehouse and the local Kenwood rep were drug-using buddies who likely used their enormous wealth to supply one another with a continuous amount of cocaine.

Apparently, the cocaine use really screwed up the owner of the chain, as he embarked on an anti-Pioneer campaign in which he'd flagrantly advertise a Kenwood unit and make comparisons to a "lesser," and "inferior" Pioneer in his newspaper ads. He'd often advertise a Pioneer piece for a lowball price (he wasn't a Pioneer dealer) and then when someone arrived in one of his stores to buy it, that person received a high pressure effort from the salespeople to push a Kenwood unit instead due to how "lousy," "cheap," and "crummy" the Pioneer unit supposedly was.


The VP of Pioneer, Bernie Halpurn, was one of the most respected people in the industry, who systematically went about collecting evidence against Audio Warehouse to sue them for fraud. Bernie.hired a large amount of individuals to shop Audio Warehouse stores and recorded the lies and distortions the salespeople fed them about Pioneer equipment. Bernie also had a ton of ads to support his cause as well. This went on for a year or so, and then the lawsuit was launched, and it did just as Bernie intended it to: it put Audio Warehouse out of business.

In the end, Pioneer was the winner. Still, throughout this debacle, both the owner of Audio Warehouse and the Kenwood rep made a small fortune, and did so with a total lack of honesty, ethics or even decency. Kenwood made a fine product, and some Kenwood products were indeed better than competing Pioneer units, but the approach Audio Warehouse used was disgraceful.

[Ajani]

As there are several other threads where Melvin Walker posts half-truths about audio, and can't seem to move beyond 1958, let me try to bring my own thread back on topic, which is/was, "Dirty Little Secrets."
...........

LOL

Excellent thread by the way...

Keep it coming....

[melvin walker]

As there are several other threads where Melvin Walker posts half-truths about audio, and can't seem to move beyond 1958, let me try to bring my own thread back on topic, which is/was, "Dirty Little Secrets."

Retailers in the heyday of the business (late 70's) carried the lines of electronics they did mostly for the sake of profit margins, and not because they believed that Kenwood (just as an example) was indeed "better" than Pioneer, or that Marantz was better than JVC, and so on. Most dealers couldn't be faulted for choosing "push" lines of electronics, since having a brand other dealers didn't gave them an exclusive, and a chance to make a decent profit, especially when a brand such as Pioneer was so overly distributed and heavily discounted that making money on it was all but impossible.

That was very true about Pioneer, but there was never anything wrong the the product itself. One dealer, Audio Warehouse, based in Ohio, took a very aggressive and highly unethical approach. Audio Warhouse's key electronics line was Kenwood, not necessarily because it was "better" than others, but likely because the owner of Audio Warehouse and the local Kenwood rep were drug-using buddies who likely used their enormous wealth to supply one another with a continuous amount of cocaine.

Apparently, the cocaine use really screwed up the owner of the chain, as he embarked on an anti-Pioneer campaign in which he'd flagrantly advertise a Kenwood unit and make comparisons to a "lesser," and "inferior" Pioneer in his newspaper ads. He'd often advertise a Pioneer piece for a lowball price (he wasn't a Pioneer dealer) and then when someone arrived in one of his stores to buy it, that person received a high pressure effort from the salespeople to push a Kenwood unit instead due to how "lousy," "cheap," and "crummy" the Pioneer unit supposedly was.


The VP of Pioneer, Bernie Halpurn, was one of the most respected people in the industry, who systematically went about collecting evidence against Audio Warehouse to sue them for fraud. Bernie.hired a large amount of individuals to shop Audio Warehouse stores and recorded the lies and distortions the salespeople fed them about Pioneer equipment. Bernie also had a ton of ads to support his cause as well. This went on for a year or so, and then the lawsuit was launched, and it did just as Bernie intended it to: it put Audio Warehouse out of business.

In the end, Pioneer was the winner. Still, throughout this debacle, both the owner of Audio Warehouse and the Kenwood rep made a small fortune, and did so with a total lack of honesty, ethics or even decency. Kenwood made a fine product, and some Kenwood products were indeed better than competing Pioneer units, but the approach Audio Warehouse used was disgraceful.

You are I guess referring to mid range audio gear. Pioneer was a late player on the audio scene. Their audio equipment was fair to middling. You also referred to Marantz , which Marantz before are after it was made in the United States ? If before one would never compare Marantz with JVC ! , JVC and Pioneer was no different from the flood of indifferent middling Japanese audio being sold to an indifferent audio public.

Kenwood did build some decent audio gear , not high end but decent. What is a piece of Kenwood audio gear selling for today ? Pioneer , JVC , and most used mid range Japanese audio equipment can be had for a song.

1958 , a good year ,Gigi won the Academy Award , the most popular book wa Dr. Zhivago , My Fair Lady began it's run on Broadway , The Baltimore Colts defeated the New
York Giants in the first overtime championship game , transistor radios made their first appearance and many Americans moved from the big cities to the suburbs.
I bought my first stereo equipment . A pair of Stephens low boy speakers , Lesa changer ,General Electric cartridge , Pilot preamp, power amp and FM tuner.
Price , on sale for $450.00 !
1958 a good year. Oh yes I was driving a 1957 Studebaker Golden Hawk.
All this and attending College as a full time student.
No Japanese junk for me , In 1958 there was none !
A counterpoint.

[basite]

Pioneer was no different from the flood of indifferent middling Japanese audio being sold to an indifferent audio public.



perhaps you have never heard of the Pioneer Spec line, or from the Pioneer Exclusive line, which are both highly sought after, and often go for the same and more than the marantzes that were built in america. Especially the Exclusive line.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/PIONEER-main.html

perhaps you've also never heard of Kenwood's Supreme line, also definately high end.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/KENWOOD/SUPREME700/SUPREME700.html#

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Mr Peabody]

I had some Kenwood upper end gear called the "D" series. This was very good but still mid-fi, not on the same level as Mac or other brands unanimously considered high end. I seriously doubt Pioneer ever did either. Sometimes people seek the vintage gear for all the wrong reasons I try to keep an open mind but Pioneer has always been disappointing to me. Except their TV's, how they do that, who knows, probably buy from some one else.

Melvin you give the Japanese mass market too much credit, it was entry at best. Some of the gear was pretty good though. Luxman held it's own for awhile. I have a Sansui AU9500 that I have been extremely impressed with, it could probably hold it's own with entry high end gear like Arcam and the like. Too bad Pilot and other American companies couldn't stay in business to offer future generations something besides Japanese gear. It was pretty good to the average Joe who couldn't afford the American stuff still around like Mac, ARC or Conrad Johnson. There are always exceptions but for the most part the Japanese gear built in Japan was reliable. Harmon Kardon's in the 80's never came back after the sale.

[melvin walker]

perhaps you have never heard of the Pioneer Spec line, or from the Pioneer Exclusive line, which are both highly sought after, and often go for the same and more than the marantzes that were built in america. Especially the Exclusive line.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/PIONEER/PIONEER-main.html

perhaps you've also never heard of Kenwood's Supreme line, also definately high end.

http://www.thevintageknob.org/KENWOOD/SUPREME700/SUPREME700.html#

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

I want to ge this in writing , question , the Pioneer Exclusive line and the Kenwood Supreme 700 is selling used for the same price as the Marantz Model 9A's power amps ?
The Marantz 10B tuner , the Marantz 8B power amp , the Marantz 7C pre amp and the Marantz Model One pre amps ? used ?

Would you want to use Ebay as a source ? Are what source would you suggest ?

[basite]

I want to ge this in writing , question , the Pioneer Exclusive line and the Kenwood Supreme 700 is selling used for the same price as the Marantz Model 9A's power amps ?
The Marantz 10B tuner , the Marantz 8B power amp , the Marantz 7C pre amp and the Marantz Model One pre amps ? used ?

Would you want to use Ebay as a source ? Are what source would you suggest ?

currently, all the models you said are on Audiogon, the spec line sells for less as the marantzes, so does the Kenwood, but they're still worth alot.

Good luck even finding a second hand Pioneer Exclusive amp or preamp. If those things ever come up for sale, it's probably in Japan only, that's how rare they are.

here's another one for ya, they're from 1987, so not really vintage vintage, but not new neither.
Centennial Series, from that other Japanese brand, Yamaha. Saw their cd player, preamp and poweramp on Ebay germany a while back. Each item ended well over $10k, way above their original retail price.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[melvin walker]

I had some Kenwood upper end gear called the "D" series. This was very good but still mid-fi, not on the same level as Mac or other brands unanimously considered high end. I seriously doubt Pioneer ever did either. Sometimes people seek the vintage gear for all the wrong reasons I try to keep an open mind but Pioneer has always been disappointing to me. Except their TV's, how they do that, who knows, probably buy from some one else.

Melvin you give the Japanese mass market too much credit, it was entry at best. Some of the gear was pretty good though. Luxman held it's own for awhile. I have a Sansui AU9500 that I have been extremely impressed with, it could probably hold it's own with entry high end gear like Arcam and the like. Too bad Pilot and other American companies couldn't stay in business to offer future generations something besides Japanese gear. It was pretty good to the average Joe who couldn't afford the American stuff still around like Mac, ARC or Conrad Johnson. There are always exceptions but for the most part the Japanese gear built in Japan was reliable. Harmon Kardon's in the 80's never came back after the sale.

I agree , What Gucci said makes sense ." Quality remains after the price is forgotten "
Marantz was slightly better than McIntosh and slightly higher in cost.
Some people do buy used items for the wrong reasons. That does not mean the item is not well made and built to last for years. The Ranger Paragon is a good example.
James B. Lansing built it's speakers to last and last. That was of course prior to 1970 !

There was other American audio companies that did the same. Conrad Johnson and Audio Research tried carrying on that American tradition of high quality audio equipment.
The cost of research and development , labor , and parts drove most American audio companies out of business. Sound familiar ? Enter cheap labor and effective promotion
and we have what is popular today , "if it's new it must be better."

Again you are correct Harmon Kardon , Fisher , Marantz , McIntosh , JBL , etc, were never the same after being sold. The list is endless. Most young people today has no idea
what real quality is because of the cost today of real quality.
Finally I will as usual use cars as an example. Mercedes vs Lexus, Mercedes will travel at over a hundred mph all day , a Lexus has all the new bells and whistles. Some would say they are equal I hope you get my point.

[bobsticks]

I
And mac is and always will be the GOLD standard for high end audio gear.
There never has or ever will be ANYTHING even close.
:

That is so assinine that it barely deserves comment.

Yes, McIntosh makes some excellent products, but listen to products from Accuphase, some Krell, PS Audio, VAC, some Classe...the list goes on and on. There's never been a better time to be a lover of music. There's a sizeable group of manufacturers building top notch equipment and one must only find the system that meets one criteria and preferences.

I swear, some of y'all argue 'bout this shiite like it's a teddy bear named Mohammed.

[Groundbeef]

That is so assinine that it barely deserves comment.

Yes, McIntosh makes some excellent products, but listen to products from Accuphase, some Krell, PS Audio, VAC, some Classe...the list goes on and on. There's never been a better time to be a lover of music. There's a sizeable group of manufacturers building top notch equipment and one must only find the system that meets one criteria and preferences.

I swear, some of y'all argue 'bout this shiite like it's a teddy bear named Mohammed.

I just had to giggle with the thought of Pixel in the 80's rockin' at the beach with an Apple II hoisted over his shoulder ala' BoomBox style!

[SlumpBuster]

Just to add to Stick's admonition, I'd like to point out that arguing about cassette decks and who made the best one kinda definately probably stoopid too. It like arguing over whose hot dog is more gourmet... regardless, they just hot dogs. Just like to point out that the cassette was/is/will be a lo-fi medium shoe-horned and crammed kicking and screaming into a hi-fi product.

Cassettes are to Hi-Fi as Posh Spice is to beautiful women, niether are either, but lots o' people claim they are.

[basite]

Just to add to Stick's admonition, I'd like to point out that arguing about cassette decks and who made the best one kinda definately probably stoopid too. It like arguing over whose hot dog is more gourmet... regardless, they just hot dogs. Just like to point out that the cassette was/is/will be a lo-fi medium shoe-horned and crammed kicking and screaming into a hi-fi product.

Cassettes are to Hi-Fi as Posh Spice is to beautiful women, niether are either, but lots o' people claim they are.


yeah, I get your point. cassettes aren't really high end, so what we're actually talking about :cornut:

[SlumpBuster]

yeah, I get your point. cassettes aren't really high end, so what we're actually talking about :cornut:


Yeah, keep in mind though, I still listen to cassettes all the time. Some of my favorite albums I only have on cassette and cannot find them on LP or CD. Also, I have lots of mixtapes, college radio shows, and live club broadcasts from the 90s, all on cassette. My Pioneer keeps going, but I've been browsing Nads, Akai, Denon, and Yammie on Ebay. But, getting cassette decks off Ebay is such a crap shoot.

[melvin walker]

That is so assinine that it barely deserves comment.

Yes, McIntosh makes some excellent products, but listen to products from Accuphase, some Krell, PS Audio, VAC, some Classe...the list goes on and on. There's never been a better time to be a lover of music. There's a sizeable group of manufacturers building top notch equipment and one must only find the system that meets one criteria and preferences.

I swear, some of y'all argue 'bout this shiite like it's a teddy bear named Mohammed.
Do a little research , review some of the past issues of Audio , High Fidelity , High Fidelity Stereo Review and Stereohile.magazines And you will find that Marantz generally recieved higher
test reviews than Mc.Intosh. Marantz generally was more expensive. Mack never made an amp equal to the Model 9's nor a tuner equal to the 10B Mack MC240 was rated lower than Marantz's 8B.

The Mack 60's was excellent power amps and so was the Mack MC75's. The MC275
while an excellent amp generally received average reviews.
The Marantz Model 8B also was highly regarded by audiophiles who had efficient speakers, such as horns are bass reflex enclosures.

As for as argue audiophiles as hobbyist , much as car hobbyist did have friendly debates as which
was which was the best , Mack or Marantz , Lansing or Bozak , Thorens or Fairchild.
Same as chevvy vs Ford , , Benz vs BMW , Corvette vs Cobra and Cadillac vs Lincoln.
I might add they did not use loose language !
Times have changed.

[Groundbeef]

I might add they did not use loose language !
Times have changed.

Yes they have. Back in your time, loose language could invite a duel. No one likes to die over a "loose" word. At least today we can engage in civil debate, and not have to pace off 20 steps.

[melvin walker]

yeah, I get your point. cassettes aren't really high end, so what we're actually talking about :cornut:
I would assume you never heard of Revox , Tandberg and Nakamichi cassette recorders. . They were and still is the state of the art. All three cassette recorders were high end ! CD players later replaced them as DVD players. is replacing CD players.
I guess there is no high end CD players ? It appears DVD players is being replaced with iPOD's.
There are those that would argue that iPOD's are low fi.
What do you think a Revox cassette recorder cost ? On Ebay a used Revox B215 is going for over $500.00 if you can find one. They listed when new for over $2000 !

[Luvin Da Blues]

Yeah, keep in mind though, I still listen to cassettes all the time. Some of my favorite albums I only have on cassette and cannot find them on LP or CD. Also, I have lots of mixtapes, college radio shows, and live club broadcasts from the 90s, all on cassette. My Pioneer keeps going, but I've been browsing Nads, Akai, Denon, and Yammie on Ebay. But, getting cassette decks off Ebay is such a crap shoot.

Slumpy, RU lookin for a tape deck??? I have a close to TOL HarmonKardon I could part with. It has very few hours on it and has been well taken care of with TLC.

[Mr Peabody]

I think when some one said cassette wasn't high end they were referring to sound reproduction. I haven't heard a Revox nor a Dragon but did their sound rival a good reel to reel or even a hi fi VHS?

[melvin walker]

Yes they have. Back in your time, loose language could invite a duel. No one likes to die over a "loose" word. At least today we can engage in civil debate, and not have to pace off 20 steps.
Duels ended in the 19th century in America. Civil debate does not include loose language. This website is not the gutter. It appears that respect in some quarters is considered old fashion , judging by the loose language I have read exhibited here.

No one would die from a loose word , but a loose word would mean a warning and than a removable from participation on the forum.
This website is very liberal !

[Groundbeef]

I would assume you never heard of Revox , Tandberg and Nakamichi cassette recorders. . They were and still is the state of the art. All three cassette recorders were high end ! CD players later replaced them as DVD players. is replacing CD players.
I guess there is no high end CD players ? It appears DVD players is being replaced with iPOD's.There are those that would argue that iPOD's are low fi.
What do you think a Revox cassette recorder cost ? On Ebay a used Revox B215 is going for over $500.00 if you can find one. They listed when new for over $2000 !

There is no doubt that tape is very good, or studios wouldn't have used it for so long.

However, I must take issue with another point. I've bolded it, and am requesting clarification from you, Melvin.

What are you basing your suggestion on? I can't think of any instance where a consumer thinks to themselves, "Boy, I sure do need a DVD player. Oh wait, I have an IPOD. Never mind, I guess I really didn't need that DVD player after all!".

Perhaps CD players are being supplanted by both computers, and Ipods, but not DVD players.

[bobsticks]

As for as argue audiophiles as hobbyist , much as car hobbyist did have friendly debates as which
was which was the best , Mack or Marantz , Lansing or Bozak , Thorens or Fairchild.
Same as chevvy vs Ford , , Benz vs BMW , Corvette vs Cobra and Cadillac vs Lincoln.
I might add they did not use loose language !
Times have changed.

To what loose language are you referring Mel? Or, are you utilizing the inference and assumption that you ask us not to use when reviewing your posts...

By the bye, my diplomacy and etiquette skills are quite refined, at least to the point that they've helped me land a professional position affording me the opportunity to enjoy some of the very equipment about which you opine. Kinda scary isn't it, you and I could show up at the same social gathering...you with your rudy-poo auto luminaries and me with your grand-daughter...I'll try and mind my tongue in your august presence.

[SlumpBuster]

Once again Melvin, you are showing your lack of knowledge. Sure there were high end cassette decks that cost alot of money. But, they were playing back a lo-fi medium. The cassette tape was initially developed as a dictation medium with sound quality similar to AM radio. The record industry saw a potential market for it and technology improved, but modern cassettes cannot by definition rivel CD or LP. Could they pass an A/B blind test? Sure, but not on a regular basis. Whether your Campbell's soup is the condensed version for 90cents or the Chunky version for $2.99, its still soup in a can. Thats they way it is with cassettes.

Your reference to the Ipod demonstrates a gross missunderstanding about digital playback. An Ipod is niether hi-fi or lo-fi, but is neutral. It is merely a flash drive with a DAC. The data and the compression method, if any, as well as the DAC used will determine whether the sound produced is hi or lo fi. An Ipod running lossless into an Audio Note DAC into Arcam amplification out of a pair of Theils will never, by anyone be considered lofi.

[SlumpBuster]

Oh and not all tape is equal. Reel to reel, vhs, half inch, ect, are all clearly hi-fi medium.

[melvin walker]

I think when some one said cassette wasn't high end they were referring to sound reproduction. I haven't heard a Revox nor a Dragon but did their sound rival a good reel to reel or even a hi fi VHS?
Audio cassettes did match many of the open reel recorders in the final years of production.
The C type which was used on high end recorders such as Revox and Dragon enable the cassette to produce identical recordings later there was further improvement .the S type.

Digital Audio Tape ( DAT) was the next step in cassette improvement. DAT was killed off by the fight between the federal government and the performers over rights. By the time that was settled CD's was on the market. As you know when you buy a blank DVD there is royalty charge attached to the DVD.

The cassette recorders listed above was better quality than VHS , mainly because non of the high end manufactures was involved. VHS was mass marketed to by now an indifferent public , Beta was better , but that's another story.

Most of the cassettes for auto and home used type B for listening and recording. Inferior to type C. The high end Revox's ,Tandberg's and Dragons were outstanding cassette recorders , but they were pricy, even today they bring high prices used.

[melvin walker]

Once again Melvin, you are showing your lack of knowledge. Sure there were high end cassette decks that cost alot of money. But, they were playing back a lo-fi medium. The cassette tape was initially developed as a dictation medium with sound quality similar to AM radio. The record industry saw a potential market for it and technology improved, but modern cassettes cannot by definition rivel CD or LP. Could they pass an A/B blind test? Sure, but not on a regular basis. Whether your Campbell's soup is the condensed version for 90cents or the Chunky version for $2.99, its still soup in a can. Thats they way it is with cassettes.

Your reference to the Ipod demonstrates a gross missunderstanding about digital playback. An Ipod is neither hi-fi or lo-fi, but is neutral. It is merely a flash drive with a DAC. The data and the compression method, if any, as well as the DAC used will determine whether the sound produced is hi or lo fi. An Ipod running lossless into an Audio Note DAC into Arcam amplification out of a pair of Theils will never, by anyone be considered lofi.

There is no point in continuing this discussion unless you are willing to do some research
Audio magazine did test reports on all the cassette recorders listed.
Read the reports and get back.
I have the reports on the Revox and Tandberg , and if I looked hard enough the Dragon.
I have heard all three , you have not , I have read the test reports , you have not, , but you can get them , you can either go to your local library are maybe find the test reports on your computer.

In the reproduction of music nothing is neutral. Unless one is listening to a live performance , that performance is being reproduced by something. An Ipod is no different.
Even if only relays something to something else it adds something to that something else.

[Groundbeef]

Most of the cassettes for auto and home used type B for listening and recording. Inferior to type C. The high end Revox's ,Tandberg's and Dragons were outstanding cassette recorders , but they were pricy, even today they bring high prices used.

You should be careful when inferring "Quality" with "Price" in regards to old used equipment. Depending upon the library someone has built up in a specific technology may cause the price to rise regardless of quality.

While I would never argue that 8mm home movies are "top quality" compared to equipment availiable today (HD camcorders with solid state hard drives, 1080p with 5.1 sound etc). The prices for used 8mm home movie players is not 'cheap'.

Its simple supply and demand. If I want to watch old home movies that my dad took, then I need the equipment. I need it regardless of "quality", and since I can't go down to my local BB and pick up new 8mm equipment, I have to "pay" what the market will bear.

[Groundbeef]

There is no point in continuing this discussion unless you are willing to do some research
Audio magazine did test reports on all the cassette recorders listed.
Read the reports and get back.
I have the reports on the Revox and Tandberg , and if I looked hard enough the Dragon.
I have heard all three , you have not , I have read the test reports , you have not, , but you can get them , you can either go to your local library are maybe find the test reports on your computer.

In the reproduction of music nothing is neutral. Unless one is listening to a live performance , that performance is being reproduced by something. An Ipod is no different.
Even if only relays something to something else it adds something to that something else.

Well Melvin, there is a difference between tape, and digital. I can listen to a CD in the house, car, or burn it onto an IPOD. If I don't compress it, there is no difference in the format chosen. The kicker is, I can listen to it THOUSANDS of times, without any degradation of the format itself.

Listen to a tape more than a handful to times, and there is noticable difference in quality. Listen over 25 times, and the sound can become muddy, fade in and out, and warble. Not to mention that heads get dirty, tapes break, and there isn't any practical way to go from the first song, to the last, to the middle, and then back again.

Tapes had their time in the sun. It has now set, and it is foolish to argue as though tape is going to make a roaring comeback.

It like arguing who makes the best buggy whip. It may be academic, but in the end completely useless. It doesn't forward A/V, nor increase our regard for your opinion.

[melvin walker]

You should be careful when inferring "Quality" with "Price" in regards to old used equipment. Depending upon the library someone has built up in a specific technology may cause the price to rise regardless of quality.

While I would never argue that 8mm home movies are "top quality" compared to equipment availiable today (HD camcorders with solid state hard drives, 1080p with 5.1 sound etc). The prices for used 8mm home movie players is not 'cheap'.

Its simple supply and demand. If I want to watch old home movies that my dad took, then I need the equipment. I need it regardless of "quality", and since I can't go down to my local BB and pick up new 8mm equipment, I have to "pay" what the market will bear.

Two quotes " The name does not guarantee the quality , the quality guarantees the name Coco Channel . "The quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten " Gucci.
Revox and Tandberg is revered for their quality in audio. I am not aware that either comany manufactures 8mm films.

Stanley Marcus former chairman of Neiman Marcus was asked " What would be a better choice a new Toyota are a 15 year old 928 Porsche ? " Mr. Marcus's reply was " the 10 year old Porsche , after all it's a $80.000 car ".
Quality is not cheap .

[bobsticks]

Mr. Marcus is a fool for answering that question with incomplete data. Is it a 15 year old car that has sat in a museum or one that has been driven 30,000 miles a year or has it been crashed? Simply making a purchase of anything due to it's name is snobbish at best.

Also, Mistah Hi-Society it's Coco Chanel. The Coco Channel is broadcast out of the Neverland Ranch by chimpanzees.

[SlumpBuster]

Digital Audio Tape ( DAT) was the next step in cassette improvement. DAT was killed off by the fight between the federal government and the performers over rights. By the time that was settled CD's was on the market. As you know when you buy a blank DVD there is royalty charge attached to the DVD.



You're right Melvin. There is no point in continuing debate if you're not going to do any research.

Your assertion "DAT was the next step in cassette improvement" demonstrates that you don't know what you are talking about and that it is useless to try to explain to you why you don't know what you are talking about. Anyone who actually knows anything will see immediately what is wrong with your assertion. You sir are a dullard.

[JSE]

Screw all you techo-minded, hi-fi wanna-be, hi-faluten stereo snobs and your Cassettes, CDs, DVDs, iPods, and Blue Ray players.

8-TRACK RULES!!!!!

Get with the times people!

JSE

[GMichael]

Screw all you techo-minded, hi-fi wanna-be, hi-faluten stereo snobs and your Cassettes, CDs, DVDs, iPods, and Blue Ray players.

8-TRACK RULES!!!!!

Get with the times people!

JSE

Can you prove that? Got any quotes from 1978 to support your claim?

[bobsticks]

I would assume you never heard of Revox , Tandberg and Nakamichi cassette recorders. . They were and still is(sic) the state of the art. All three cassette recorders were high end !.
!

SOTA Cassette:
https://www.audiolinks.com/Califone/4-1300AV.jpg

[JSE]

Can you prove that? Got any quotes from 1978 to support your claim?

You know, it really pisses me off when people disagree with me when "I KNOW" it to be so. I read it in JUGS back in 87. Proof enough? I thought so! :incazzato:

Man, the nerve of some people!

JSE

[melvin walker]

Well Melvin, there is a difference between tape, and digital. I can listen to a CD in the house, car, or burn it onto an IPOD. If I don't compress it, there is no difference in the format chosen. The kicker is, I can listen to it THOUSANDS of times, without any degradation of the format itself.

Listen to a tape more than a handful to times, and there is noticable difference in quality. Listen over 25 times, and the sound can become muddy, fade in and out, and warble. Not to mention that heads get dirty, tapes break, and there isn't any practical way to go from the first song, to the last, to the middle, and then back again.

Tapes had their time in the sun. It has now set, and it is foolish to argue as though tape is going to make a roaring comeback.

It like arguing who makes the best buggy whip. It may be academic, but in the end completely useless. It doesn't forward A/V, nor increase our regard for your opinion.

Tape is still used where editing is a most. Your reruns on television is tape. You may play a song a thousand times , was it recorded on high end equipment ? or average equipment.
If it was recorded on average audio equipment than you have just listened to a recording a thousand times and the sound is average.

If the tape is taken care of , it can last for years. and if it is recorded on high end equipment and played back on high end equipment I see no reason why the sound should not be excellent.
The problem is what is the quality of the audio gear that is being used. Remember what Mr. Marcus eluded to , a 15 year old Porsche is a $80,000 car , the manufacturer was able to put excellent parts in the car because he could charge $80,000 !
The Toyota had to cut corners , he could not put quality parts in the car it would have increased the price and no one is going to spend $80,000 for a Toyota.
While new it is still not as well made nor can it perform as well as a Porsche.

In audio it is no different , you may play a song on your iPOD a thousand times , but on what kind of audio equipment did you use to record that song.?

[bobsticks]

It's probably worth noting that digital is "transfered" and not recorded. This can be done at a completely lossless rate...again and again and again. There is no differential in the particular "recording" process to which you refer.

And, Mr. Marcus is still a fool.

[Rich-n-Texas]

You know, it really pisses me off when people disagree with me when "I KNOW" it to be so. I read it in JUGS back in 87. Proof enough? I thought so! :incazzato:

Man, the nerve of some people!

JSE
I still have that issue!!! :thumbsup:

[Rich-n-Texas]

To what loose language are you referring Mel? Or, are you utilizing the inference and assumption that you ask us not to use when reviewing your posts...

By the bye, my diplomacy and etiquette skills are quite refined, at least to the point that they've helped me land a professional position affording me the opportunity to enjoy some of the very equipment about which you opine. Kinda scary isn't it, you and I could show up at the same social gathering...you with your rudy-poo auto luminaries and me with your grand-daughter...I'll try and mind my tongue in your august presence.
Wait a minute! That was a line by Moe on the Three Stooges when the professors (I think one professor's name was Dr. Melvin Walker) tried to make them into the Hoy-pulloy. Maybe that party was at Melvin's house. The guests looked like a bunch of pompous a$$es ya know?

[bobsticks]

Wait a minute! That was a line by Moe on the Three Stooges when the professors (I think one professor's name was Dr. Melvin Walker) tried to make them into the Hoy-pulloy. Maybe that party was at Melvin's house. The guests looked like a bunch of pompous a$$es ya know?

LOL, that sounds like my kinda gig, mang...

You're bordering on green chicklet territory there, old sport.

[Ajani]

It's interesting how so many of us are quick to point out that Cassettes are obsolete, as we brush the dust of our vinyl collection...

We audiophiles are a weird bunch....

[Rich-n-Texas]

You're bordering on green chicklet territory there, old sport.
Man, this just ain't my day. :(

[melvin walker]

Mr. Marcus is a fool for answering that question with incomplete data. Is it a 15 year old car that has sat in a museum or one that has been driven 30,000 miles a year or has it been crashed? Simply making a purchase of anything due to it's name is snobbish at best.

Also, Mistah Hi-Society it's Coco Chanel. The Coco Channel is broadcast out of the Neverland Ranch by chimpanzees.

It's call reputation., Porsche has a sterling reputation when it comes to building outstanding high performance cars for the streets and the race track. Neiman Marcus is one of the finest high end stores in America. Chanel products is world renown.

Mr. Marcus in his book "The quest for the Best " comes up with conclusions about the future of quality products and whether or not a consumer should have to settle for inferior products.
We all make purchases due to name identification. Unless you have been living in a cave for the last 50 years , you should know the difference between a Porsche and a Toyota
One is for those who care about the best the other is for those who don't.
One man's opinion.

[Mr Peabody]

Melvin, Toyota doesn't cost $80k but they have become synonomous with quality. The stories got confusing, they either did, or almost, surpass GM as #1 in the U.S. in sales. Maybe that's what blurrs the contrast in your scenario, except for price.

Another good auto scenario is the "big 3" U.S. auto makers are hurting bad right now and it's not all labor cost, it's their failure to change with the times.

[bobsticks]

It's call reputation., Porsche has a sterling reputation when it comes to building outstanding high performance cars for the streets and the race track. Neiman Marcus is one of the finest high end stores in America. Chanel products is world renown.

Mr. Marcus in his book "The quest for the Best " comes up with conclusions about the future of quality products and whether or not a consumer should have to settle for inferior products.
We all make purchases due to name identification. Unless you have been living in a cave for the last 50 years , you should know the difference between a Porsche and a Toyota
One is for those who care about the best the other is for those who don't.
One man's opinion.

Melvin sometimes I think you pick these examples for pure provocation potential. Just as I wouldn't let my plumber even attempt to fix me a gourmet meal I wouldn't let a haberdasher pick my vehicle. He's uninformed.

The 928 wasn't even "the best" during it's time, much less now. Regardless of its pricetag it was mired with problems and fifteen years later it isn't going to be any better. It's not a delicate red, it doesn't improve with age. It wasn't even "good" by modern standards unless your definition of "best" is unwieldy, ugly, bulbous, creaking, groaning, prone to stalling, prone to throwing rods and prone to spending half its life in the shop. How is something that spends half its life under maintenance the "best"?

I was priveledged enough to ride in an Aston Martin Vantage once. An amazing vehicle with a menacing growl upon ignition that literally raored Ferraris into submission. On the other hand, the Lagonda was a piece of junk. It was, and is if any are still driveable, the 928 of of Aston Martin. I knew a mechanic that put a kid through college on one sophist's Lagonda. How is that the best?



Maybe if I buy a Fiero and scotch tape a 914 emblem on the hood I'll have the second-greatest, since "best" seems to be a function of q rating.

[pixelthis]

Tape is still used where editing is a most. Your reruns on television is tape. You may play a song a thousand times , was it recorded on high end equipment ? or average equipment.
If it was recorded on average audio equipment than you have just listened to a recording a thousand times and the sound is average.

If the tape is taken care of , it can last for years. and if it is recorded on high end equipment and played back on high end equipment I see no reason why the sound should not be excellent.
The problem is what is the quality of the audio gear that is being used. Remember what Mr. Marcus eluded to , a 15 year old Porsche is a $80,000 car , the manufacturer was able to put excellent parts in the car because he could charge $80,000 !
The Toyota had to cut corners , he could not put quality parts in the car it would have increased the price and no one is going to spend $80,000 for a Toyota.
While new it is still not as well made nor can it perform as well as a Porsche.

In audio it is no different , you may play a song on your iPOD a thousand times , but on what kind of audio equipment did you use to record that song.?


TAPE ISNT USED anymore except where absolutely nessesary.
Its a digital world, and a lot of content is on hard drive, optical disc, etc.
Just because a product started out on "tape" doesnt mean it stays there.
I doubt if you ever watch anything on television that comes from a "tape"
As a matter of fact most TV shows were FILMED .
This is why they can offer a HD version of the original Star Ttek, the original episodes were filmed, and film is essentially HD in quality.
And the primary reason german cars cost so much is marketing and labor costs.
In germany a BMW is akin to a pontiac , they charge so much for one because they know they can.
Toyota doesnt "cut corners", I have a friend who put 450,000 miles on a toyota pickup truck without opening the motor once, this truck didnt cost ten grand.


It doesnt matter what a product costs, that is totally irrelevant.
What matters is what people are willing to pay, if it costs more to make than people will pay, you're out of business.
Desani and AQUAFINA were TAP water, probably not as good as tap water, coca-cola has finally admitted, and it is STILL selling for a bucck fifty and up a bottle:1:

[emaidel]

Oh well, I guess trying to bring this thread back on topic is a hopeless cause. That being thte case, I have a couple of requests for two posters: first, for Pixelthis, please STOP USING CAPS in your threads. Using caps is the internet equivalent of shouting, and is considered rude.

Next, to "our" dear friend Melvin, would you please, please, please try to use proper spelling and grammar? In older posts, several members repeatedly pointed out your nonstop mistakes, yet you ignored all of those posts and continued to write badly. Totally irrespective of what it is you wish to say, you could say it a whole helluva lot better if you just spent a moment or two on using proper English.

[kexodusc]

I know I haven't been 'round these parts much lateley, but who in the blue hell is Melvin and why does Bobby Styxx want to date his granddaughter?

[emaidel]

I know I haven't been 'round these parts much lateley, but who in the blue hell is Melvin and why does Bobby Styxx want to date his granddaughter?

I can't answer the second part of your question, but as to "Who in the blue hell is Melvin?" I suspect many of us here might wish to ask the same question. He seemed to come out of the blue and does little other than post nostalgic posts about how wonderful the industry was up until the end of the 1960's. Then, all went to hell in a handbasket, and the Japanese (who make only "junk" according to him) put all the American companies out of business and ruined an otherwise fine industry. Absolutely nothing of any worth seems to have been made since then, at least according to Melvin.

He also constantly makes comparisons between German and Japanese or American cars, placing the German cars on platforms as if they never had any peers, and thoroughly trashes Lexus and Corvette automobiles.

Just look back on this thread and elsewhere on AR. You'll find lots of stuff from this guy.

[Ajani]

I can't answer the second part of your question, but as to "Who in the blue hell is Melvin?" I suspect many of us here might wish to ask the same question. He seemed to come out of the blue and does little other than post nostalgic posts about how wonderful the industry was up until the end of the 1960's. Then, all went to hell in a handbasket, and the Japanese (who make only "junk" according to him) put all the American companies out of business and ruined an otherwise fine industry. Absolutely nothing of any worth seems to have been made since then, at least according to Melvin.

He also constantly makes comparisons between German and Japanese or American cars, placing the German cars on platforms as if they never had any peers, and thoroughly trashes Lexus and Corvette automobiles.

Just look back on this thread and elsewhere on AR. You'll find lots of stuff from this guy.

Yep, that sounds like a pretty apt description of Melvin....

[Luvin Da Blues]

Absolutely nothing of any worth seems to have been made since then, at least according to Melvin.


LOL..just like his posts...absolutely nothing of any worth.

EDIT: Ok, it is good for entertainment and wasting time.

[GMichael]

I know I haven't been 'round these parts much lateley, but who in the blue hell is Melvin and why does Bobby Styxx want to date his granddaughter?

You don't really want to know. Trust me.

Good to see you around. And good luck making sense of what's going on here these days.

[Groundbeef]

Another of my favorite hobbies is springing incredibly offensive jokes upon unsuspecting friends.

Heres one to try and get the topic back around.

A man boards a plane, and is seated next to an incredibly striking woman. Realizing that he has no chance in hell of actually snaring a catch such as her, he decides to ignore her.

However, after a time, he notices she is reading a rather 'adult' book, and works up the nerve to talk to her. He asks what she is reading, and after much hesitation she replies its a self help sex book. She then continues on to relate several poor encounters with strangers in the past, and how she has FINALLY solved her problems.

"How?" the man asks? Well, she replies in the book it suggests that she concentrate either on Indian Lovers, as they are commanding in the bed, or with Jewish Lovers, as they concentrate on pleasing their lovers. The man ponders this for a few moments, and then turns silent. After a minute he looks back, and asks her name. She replies "Jane", and then asks what his name is.

Without hesitation he replies "Tonto Berkowitz".

[SlumpBuster]

Melvin's supadupafly Porsche:


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/61/Porsche_Diesel_Super.jpg

[basite]

Do a little research , review some of the past issues of Audio , High Fidelity , High Fidelity Stereo Review and Stereohile.magazines And you will find that Marantz generally recieved higher
test reviews than Mc.Intosh. Marantz generally was more expensive. Mack never made an amp equal to the Model 9's nor a tuner equal to the 10B Mack MC240 was rated lower than Marantz's 8B.

The Mack 60's was excellent power amps and so was the Mack MC75's. The MC275
while an excellent amp generally received average reviews.
The Marantz Model 8B also was highly regarded by audiophiles who had efficient speakers, such as horns are bass reflex enclosures.

As for as argue audiophiles as hobbyist , much as car hobbyist did have friendly debates as which
was which was the best , Mack or Marantz , Lansing or Bozak , Thorens or Fairchild.
Same as chevvy vs Ford , , Benz vs BMW , Corvette vs Cobra and Cadillac vs Lincoln.
I might add they did not use loose language !
Times have changed.


yes, and there you go again braggin about the past.

stop doing that. We live now, not 50 years ago. look what is now, and what will come in the future.

Now Mcintosh is clearly better than Marantz, and the few high end pieces Marantz still makes are outperformed by similarily priced Mcintosh gear. And how much reviews were made is not a good argument.

[Ajani]

yes, and there you go again braggin about the past.

stop doing that. We live now, not 50 years ago. look what is now, and what will come in the future.

I'll agree with that point...


Now Mcintosh is clearly better than Marantz, and the few high end pieces Marantz still makes are outperformed by similarily priced Mcintosh gear. And how much reviews were made is not a good argument.

Not so sure about this one though... while Mcintosh has focused solely on high end gear, Marantz has launched a full line of critically acclaimed gear from a $300 CD Player to a $7K one... from $600 amps to a $24K preamp + 2 monoblocks combo....... so I'm not sure whether Mcintosh is clearly better now....

[basite]

Not so sure about this one though... while Mcintosh has focused solely on high end gear, Marantz has launched a full line of critically acclaimed gear from a $300 CD Player to a $7K one... from $600 amps to a $24K preamp + 2 monoblocks combo....... so I'm not sure whether Mcintosh is clearly better now....


take the $24k pre and compare them to $24k mcintosh pre, you'll get their C1000C and C1000T (or P) combo for that...

their high end gear was critticaly acclaimed, but there is other gear that outperforms it that costs about the same.

[melvin walker]

yes, and there you go again braggin about the past.

stop doing that. We live now, not 50 years ago. look what is now, and what will come in the future.

Now Mcintosh is clearly better than Marantz, and the few high end pieces Marantz still makes are outperformed by similarily priced Mcintosh gear. And how much reviews were made is not a good argument.

Why do they teach history in schools. Reading your post I now understand why most Europeans are more aware of American history than Americans.
Small wonder that in a New York Times article , most young Americans thought that Japan was one of our allies in World War Two !

Why not know the history of two revered audio company ? Do you ever watch the History Channel ? History International ? How about the Discovery channel ?
Some of the material is 100 years old and older.

Small wonder an American politician can tell many young Americans anything , how would they know the difference.
Magazine reviews gives the interested consumer an opportunity to read about a test report
on an item they might buy. An informed consumer is a happy consumer.
Consumers Report is an example of a consumer based magazine informing the public through testing , therefor helping the consumer make an informed decision.

Is that bragging ? to compare two outstanding audio companies when they set a standard of excellence in audio equipment. Should you watch the History Channel , you see comparisons made between World War Two fighter planes, Tanks , rifles , even leaders.
Judging by your post that would not interest you. Am I right ?

[Rich-n-Texas]

LOL..just like his posts...absolutely nothing of any worth.

EDIT: Ok, it is good for entertainment and wasting time.
Good job LDB. Finally getting your feet wet I see. :)

[Luvin Da Blues]

Good job LDB. Finally getting your feet wet I see. :)


Hey Rich, my tongue was starting to bleed from biting it for so long. :16:

[Mr Peabody]

Go ahead Emaidel keep it coming, we'll still get the message through the interference.

Basite did you ever switch cable brands?

Marantz is trying hard to be everything to everyone, it will take some doing for them to gain respect again as a "true" high end company. If something is going to cost $24k, it had better sound like $24k. In that ultra high end arena there are some pretty tough contenders. Since Marantz and Mac are under the same umbrella I also have to wonder if any sharing is going on there. Neither line is very well represented in my area, especially in the separates and more expensive gear, so I can't say how well Marantz is doing with a come back to the higher end. One of our high end shops carries the Marantz HT receivers as a entry level, I'd think if any of their other gear would compete they would bring it in. Arcam has been a staple there. They tried Cambridge for a while but dropped it in favor of NAD. We'll see what happens there.

[melvin walker]

I can't answer the second part of your question, but as to "Who in the blue hell is Melvin?" I suspect many of us here might wish to ask the same question. He seemed to come out of the blue and does little other than post nostalgic posts about how wonderful the industry was up until the end of the 1960's. Then, all went to hell in a handbasket, and the Japanese (who make only "junk" according to him) put all the American companies out of business and ruined an otherwise fine industry. Absolutely nothing of any worth seems to have been made since then, at least according to Melvin.

He also constantly makes comparisons between German and Japanese or American cars, placing the German cars on platforms as if they never had any peers, and thoroughly trashes Lexus and Corvette automobiles.

Just look back on this thread and elsewhere on AR. You'll find lots of stuff from this guy.
Do you know anything about cars ? How many Japanese car has won a Formula one World Championship , are a World Sports Car Manufactures Championship ?
There was one American car company that did win the sports car championship.
I don't expect most of you so called audio hobbyist to know.
Dont think many of you can read very well judging by this post.

As for as audio it appears most of you is as ignorant of audio as you are cars.
That is why I am here to , educate ? not all but most !

[basite]

Basite did you ever switch cable brands?


yes, I'm using the Sonic link now, but I'm waiting for the Siltech to arrive (0.75m...), I have the sonic link on loan now, until the siltech arrives...

I do hope the siltech arrives soon though, and when it does, the cable thread will be there...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[GMichael]

Do you know anything about cars ? How many Japanese car has won a Formula one World Championship , are a World Sports Car Manufactures Championship ?
There was one American car company that did win the sports car championship.
I don't expect most of you so called audio hobbyist to know.
Dont think many of you can read very well judging by this post.

As for as audio it appears most of you is as ignorant of audio as you are cars.
That is why I am here to , educate ? not all but most !

I don't see any reason to attack the good members of this forum with this kind of loose language. Please don't insult us. You don't really know any of us.

[Mr Peabody]

Melvin, please don't use Consumer Report as an example. If you believe them all CD players are the same. I'm here to say by experience, they are not and that has been an up hill battle on this board for the most part. Also audio rags make for good reading and the test reports may, or may not be accurate, but most of the reviews have to be biased as to not offend a paying advertising customer. Stereo Review, now Sound & Vision, I have yet to read a bad review of anything. I dropped my subscription long ago, so let me know if things have changed. Stereophile, these guys are only men, with an opinion. they have given gear a "class A" rating that I totally disagreed with. These things can be a guide or source if used with a grain of salt but the bottom line is a person has to check for themselves, with their own ears.

I agree with your point on history. Actually, that is exactly what this post originally was about, Emaidel letting us in on some history that isn't so well known or publicized.

I think it rubs people the wrong way with your continual comparisons of the 50's to today. Marantz was good then, and yes the old gear sells for more than it's original retail but you have to realize that compared to today's high end gear, Krell, ARC, Boulder, etc. it would have a difficult time holding its own. I realize that this statement is subjective, BUT, you have to realize that too.

[melvin walker]

TAPE ISNT USED anymore except where absolutely nessesary.
Its a digital world, and a lot of content is on hard drive, optical disc, etc.
Just because a product started out on "tape" doesnt mean it stays there.
I doubt if you ever watch anything on television that comes from a "tape"
As a matter of fact most TV shows were FILMED .
This is why they can offer a HD version of the original Star Ttek, the original episodes were filmed, and film is essentially HD in quality.
And the primary reason german cars cost so much is marketing and labor costs.
In germany a BMW is akin to a pontiac , they charge so much for one because they know they can.
Toyota doesnt "cut corners", I have a friend who put 450,000 miles on a toyota pickup truck without opening the motor once, this truck didnt cost ten grand.


It doesnt matter what a product costs, that is totally irrelevant.
What matters is what people are willing to pay, if it costs more to make than people will pay, you're out of business.
Desani and AQUAFINA were TAP water, probably not as good as tap water, coca-cola has finally admitted, and it is STILL selling for a bucck fifty and up a bottle:1:

Pontiac is a division of General Motors , what is BMW a division of. To compare Pontiac to BMW bothers me ,
BMW competes with Mercedes in Germany , who does Pontiac compete with in America ?

Toyota cannot build a car with the performance of a high end BMW , no one would pay the extra money for it. It's a Toyota ! A truck is not a high performance car.
Comparing a Toyota truck to a BMW car is the same as comparing a F-15 to a
passenger plan.
It gets harder and harder , our schools have failed !

[melvin walker]

I don't see any reason to attack the good members of this forum with this kind of loose language. Please don't insult us. You don't really know any of us.
I only read the post !
What is your definition of loose language ?

[basite]

Why do they teach history in schools. Reading your post I now understand why most Europeans are more aware of American history than Americans.
Small wonder that in a New York Times article , most young Americans thought that Japan was one of our allies in World War Two !


I happen to like history, but it's good as being history. You can't use the history to argument the current times. now is the time, use history to learn about the past, don't use it to say how things should or shouldn't be now.

and the reason most europeans are more aware of the american history (or any other history) than the Americans themselves is because our school system is better. I get the feeling that the american system more concentrates on making people work together, and experience the social pressure, but not the actual prestations. Here in Belgium, we also learn to work and live in groups, educational standards are very high, thus we learn alot. Our system is more focused on knowledge. Social life something we have to experience ourselves, the school only 'helps' on that part because at school we are together with other teenagers.

I don't watch any of the channels you listed, simply because we don't have them here (well, maybe discovery channel, with digital TV, not on the regular cable...)

I do watch the BBC, our very own Canvas (a culture channel), and I read the internet, the holy grail of all information channels :)

As I said I take alot of interest in 'older' things, political systems, economy,... but also in the current version of the afromentioned.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Rich-n-Texas]

My brain is going haywire!!! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :out: :out: :out: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

[basite]

Toyota cannot build a car with the performance of a high end BMW , no one would pay the extra money for it. It's a Toyota ! A truck is not a high performance car.


That's why Toyota created that other brand Lexus.

[melvin walker]

Melvin, please don't use Consumer Report as an example. If you believe them all CD players are the same. I'm here to say by experience, they are not and that has been an up hill battle on this board for the most part. Also audio rags make for good reading and the test reports may, or may not be accurate, but most of the reviews have to be biased as to not offend a paying advertising customer. Stereo Review, now Sound & Vision, I have yet to read a bad review of anything. I dropped my subscription long ago, so let me know if things have changed. Stereophile, these guys are only men, with an opinion. they have given gear a "class A" rating that I totally disagreed with. These things can be a guide or source if used with a grain of salt but the bottom line is a person has to check for themselves, with their own ears.

I agree with your point on history. Actually, that is exactly what this post originally was about, Emaidel letting us in on some history that isn't so well known or publicized.

As for as Consumers Reports is concerned , what publication or source offers better informed test than Consumers Reports ? It has no advertising.
There were many test reports of a singe audio component , the consumer compared the reports , this helped the consumer in making an informed decision. There was test reports made by over a dozen magazines , some European.

I agree it is better to check with one's ears. But very seldom can one check most of the audio gear that is sold. Where would you go ? How long will it last ? Magazines while not perfect is a great help.

I remember seeing your website several years ago , but it has changed. There are some members yourself included who try very hard to inform others of the history of audio.
There are others ,it appears many who couldn't care less.
Keep trying , Rome wasn't built in one day.

[Groundbeef]

Do you know anything about cars ? How many Japanese car has won a Formula one World Championship , are a World Sports Car Manufactures Championship ?
There was one American car company that did win the sports car championship.
I don't expect most of you so called audio hobbyist to know.
Dont think many of you can read very well judging by this post.

As for as audio it appears most of you is as ignorant of audio as you are cars.
That is why I am here to , educate ? not all but most !

It took a couple of seconds to look up, and it appears since 2002, Toyota has not won an event, but has placed 2nd. That means that it beat German, Italian, and American autos.

Here:
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2008/01/27/3232683.htm

I'm no car enthusiest, but your 1 drumbeat has grown tiresome.

Honda makes some fine engines, and I've no doubt Toyota has some killer engineers as well. Your average, off the showroom floor BMW has NO better chance of winning a Formula 1 race either. So your doubious ablitily to equate F1 performance with day to day operations of an auto are funny at best. Delusional at best.

I'd like to see your F1 Ferarri, McLaren, rub a little paint on the Nascar Circuit. Now that would be funny!

BTW in 1990 this article stated that Honda has been so successful with its engines in F1 that "most of the excitement has been taken out of the races". That's in 1990!!!!

Heres the article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE7D91E3CF935A15756C0A9669582 60&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I know it may take some time for you to digest it, but Japanese automakers are doing plenty in F1.

Also you bloviating windbag, it appears that HONDA won a F1 race in 1967. Thats 1967! Heres the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Italian_Grand_Prix

Then in 1968 Honda (Japanese) WON EVERY RACE in Formula 1!!!! Every RACE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Racing_F1

I'm gonna let loose with some loose language. You, Mr. Walker, are a fool. Do some research before you come spouting "facts" without even knowing them yourself. It appears you know even less about autos than you do A/V. And I thought that would be impossible!!

[melvin walker]

That's why Toyota created that other brand Lexus.
Honda , Accura , and Nissan , Infiniti. Excellent cars but pretty much all the same.
Little are no character. Performance good.

Compared to Jaguar , Mercedes , BMW , Audi , not including Lamborghini , Ferrari , Maserati , Bentley , Aston Martin , and Rolls Royce .
The Japanses cars are built mostly for the masses. Much like Pioneer , Sony , Teac , Onkyo , Technic , Sayo etc.

Are American cars any different ?

[GMichael]

My brain is going haywire!!! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :out: :out: :out: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:
It does seem like a big waste of time doesn't it? No matter how logical we are, how many facts we present, or quotes given our, he just ignores anything that doesn't agree with his ideas. Just like any other politician.

[basite]

Are American cars any different ?


I'd say american cars are often worse.

of course, some good models came out, but the 'good ones' were mostly based on old cars, like the mustang. most american cars, comparable in price to the japanese ones are crap.

while looking like sh!t, they also don't handle well and are as envorniment friendly as friggin china.

Japanese cars, on the other hand, are innovative, look about the same, just smaller (ideal for in big towns), and actually care about the envorniment.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

Go ahead Emaidel keep it coming, we'll still get the message through the interference.

Agreed... Emaidel, don't lose heart we're still listening even as we engage in totally unrelated banter with Melvin and each other...


Marantz is trying hard to be everything to everyone, it will take some doing for them to gain respect again as a "true" high end company. If something is going to cost $24k, it had better sound like $24k. In that ultra high end arena there are some pretty tough contenders.

From what I've read... they are doing a really good job at launching a full range of products.... Nothing wrong with having everything from entry level to high end... It's fairly common in the speaker world... B&W have had great success doing it... and Marantz seems to be respected again as a high end company, by the reviewers anyway, even if not much of the American population are willing to give them a try...


Since Marantz and Mac are under the same umbrella I also have to wonder if any sharing is going on there. Neither line is very well represented in my area, especially in the separates and more expensive gear, so I can't say how well Marantz is doing with a come back to the higher end. One of our high end shops carries the Marantz HT receivers as a entry level, I'd think if any of their other gear would compete they would bring it in. Arcam has been a staple there. They tried Cambridge for a while but dropped it in favor of NAD. We'll see what happens there.

Maybe, maybe not... Sometimes dealers bring in gear that are popular or that they get better mark-ups on... doesn't mean what they don't stock isn't good... also, your dealer may just never have listened to any of the high end Marantz gear... like most, he may just assume that it's crap and stick to the Receivers....


Anyway, I don't want to come off as some die-hard Marantz fan... I've just read great reviews for their highend gear, including the 24k setup... but I haven't listened to it or compared it to Mcintosh or Krell etc... So I can't honestly say how it stacks up in my opinion... but if I was in the market for high end gear, I wouldn't rule them out without first listening....

[Groundbeef]

It does seem like a big waste of time doesn't it? No matter how logical we are, how many facts we present, or quotes given our, he just ignores anything that doesn't agree with his ideas. Just like any other politician.

Yes, but instead of kissing babies, he eats them.

[kexodusc]

It does seem like a big waste of time doesn't it? No matter how logical we are, how many facts we present, or quotes given our, he just ignores anything that doesn't agree with his ideas. Just like any other politician.

Who we talkin' bout here? Pix or Melvin?

Methinks he's using some speech-recognition software - he's making a lot of the same grammatical mistakes - too many for coincidence. The "or"/"are" thing makes it hard to follow at times. Good on him for bashing our schools though.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yes, but instead of kissing babies, he eats them.
:yikes: :yikes: :yikes:

[emaidel]

As for as audio it appears most of you is as ignorant of audio as you are cars.
That is why I am here to , educate ? not all but most !

How the hell are we supposed to learn from someone who can't write?

[melvin walker]

It took a couple of seconds to look up, and it appears since 2002, Toyota has not won an event, but has placed 2nd. That means that it beat German, Italian, and American autos.

Here:
http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2008/01/27/3232683.htm

I'm no car enthusiest, but your 1 drumbeat has grown tiresome.

Honda makes some fine engines, and I've no doubt Toyota has some killer engineers as well. Your average, off the showroom floor BMW has NO better chance of winning a Formula 1 race either. So your doubious ablitily to equate F1 performance with day to day operations of an auto are funny at best. Delusional at best.

I'd like to see your F1 Ferarri, McLaren, rub a little paint on the Nascar Circuit. Now that would be funny!

BTW in 1990 this article stated that Honda has been so successful with its engines in F1 that "most of the excitement has been taken out of the races". That's in 1990!!!!

Heres the article:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE7D91E3CF935A15756C0A9669582 60&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I know it may take some time for you to digest it, but Japanese automakers are doing plenty in F1.

Also you bloviating windbag, it appears that HONDA won a F1 race in 1967. Thats 1967! Heres the link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1967_Italian_Grand_Prix

I'm gonna let loose with some loose language. You, Mr. Walker, are a fool. Do some research before you come spouting "facts" without even knowing them yourself. It appears you know even less about autos than you do A/V. And I thought that would be impossible!!
Ferrari won the Formula One Championship followed by BMW , Renault , Williams Toyota.
McLaren Mercedes would have been the winner but because of rules violation lost it's points and Ferrari was awarded the winner. Mercedes lost all it's points as a result.
You don't even know where to find a source on a computer.

Nascar cars are to big and can't turn corners , friends of mine call them rounders ! on a road circuit they would not be a factor, the FI cars would run of and hide form the cheaper
not as well built Nascar iron.

Showroom comparison , the best Honda , Toyota , Accura , and Lexus vs the BMW 760i,
M6 , M5 , Mercedes S600 , S65AMG , SLK55AMG , just to name a few. I forgot Porsche !
How many FI Championships has Honda won ?

I may be a fool but you can't read ! It is true you know little about cars , what do you know anything about ?
The European cars control international racing ! FI and sports cars ! The Japanese are still trying "READ" . The Italians , Germans and British has no peers when it comes to building great motor cars. Only Ford Motor Company has won an international championship as a non European . The Fords were developed in Great Britain . The first successful Ford GT'40s were driven by European drivers.

I don't blame you I blame the computer , we must read "BOOKS"

[GMichael]

I only read the post !
What is your definition of loose language ?

Re-read the post from you that I quoted. If we had said the same things to you, you would have gotten very upset and posted more unhappy faces.

[melvin walker]

Re-read the post from you that I quoted. If we had said the same things to you, you would have gotten very upset and posted more unhappy faces.

I don't get upset .I enjoy the give and take. Believe it or not I respect many of the opinions posted here. The unhappy faces are fun.
I agree to disagree. it likes driving on the autobahn , at first it's tough but you get better.
At first I was surprised at the response , not now.

I rather enjoy debating with all of you. We all learn something. You might call it the clashing with the generations.
Isn't America a wonderful. Keep it coming.
What about this face ?

[GMichael]

I don't get upset .I enjoy the give and take. Believe it or not I respect many of the opinions posted here. The unhappy faces are fun.
I agree to disagree. it likes driving on the autobahn , at first it's tough but you get better.
At first I was surprised at the response , not now.

I rather enjoy debating with all of you. We all learn something. You might call it the clashing with the generations.
Isn't America a wonderful. Keep it coming.
What about this face ?

It seems that debating is what a lot of members here (or on other boards) come for. It's a good way to blow off steam.

I would have loved to give the autobahn a drive back when I was younger. Although I have no trouble at over 100mph, 150+ is more than I would go now. My reflexes are not what they once were.

That face is much nicer. Thank you.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I don't get upset .I enjoy the give and take. Believe it or not I respect many of the opinions posted here. The unhappy faces are fun.
I agree to disagree. it likes driving on the autobahn , at first it's tough but you get better.
At first I was surprised at the response , not now.

I rather enjoy debating with all of you. We all learn something. You might call it the clashing with the generations.
Isn't America a wonderful. Keep it coming.
What about this face ?
Well, I guess this means he isn't going anywhere for a while. :cryin:

:Yawn:

[Mr Peabody]

There's nothing wrong with offering a full line from entry to high end, it's just very difficult to get your high end gear respect. Look at Denon for instance, their receivers and consumer stuff is their bread and butter, not many know that they had $20k amps and most looking for a $20k amp would rather have a Krell or Levinson than the Denon. If the Denon was able to kick their butt I'm sure they'd get some respect. The only really high end Marantz I heard was their $7.5k SACD player which was showed up by Krell redbook costing much less. I do keep an open mind though and plan to give Marantz a shot when the AV8003 hits the street.

The dealer I speak of wants to make money like anyone in business but they try to keep a reputation for carrying the best, in their opinion, at a certain price point. They had Arcam as a line and built it in the Midwest before anyone knew who Arcam was. They have T+A and was the first place I ever heard of the line and T+A isn't a household name in hi fi yet, at least in the U.S. If they didn't have some integrity or concern about the quality of their product they could do the easy thing and carry Rotel, Denon and B&W like almost every other hi fi shop.

[Ajani]

There's nothing wrong with offering a full line from entry to high end, it's just very difficult to get your high end gear respect. Look at Denon for instance, their receivers and consumer stuff is their bread and butter, not many know that they had $20k amps and most looking for a $20k amp would rather have a Krell or Levinson than the Denon. If the Denon was able to kick their butt I'm sure they'd get some respect. The only really high end Marantz I heard was their $7.5k SACD player which was showed up by Krell redbook costing much less. I do keep an open mind though and plan to give Marantz a shot when the AV8003 hits the street.

The dealer I speak of wants to make money like anyone in business but they try to keep a reputation for carrying the best, in their opinion, at a certain price point. They had Arcam as a line and built it in the Midwest before anyone knew who Arcam was. They have T+A and was the first place I ever heard of the line and T+A isn't a household name in hi fi yet, at least in the U.S. If they didn't have some integrity or concern about the quality of their product they could do the easy thing and carry Rotel, Denon and B&W like almost every other hi fi shop.

LOL.... sounds like you have a good dealer.... though I like Rotel and to some extent B&W, I realize that selling those products really is the easy road....

Oh and it seems Denon is still trying to press into High End.... they now have a $7K Pre-amp and Matching $7K (10 channel x 150 @ * ohms) Power amp....

[Groundbeef]

Ferrari won the Formula One Championship followed by BMW , Renault , Williams Toyota.
McLaren Mercedes would have been the winner but because of rules violation lost it's points and Ferrari was awarded the winner. Mercedes lost all it's points as a result.
You don't even know where to find a source on a computer."

I only request your reply be even more vague than the above example of your nonsensical writing. What year are you discussing? When was McLaren penalized? Every year? One year? Mercedes lost all its points when?




Nascar cars are to big and can't turn corners , friends of mine call them rounders ! on a road circuit they would not be a factor, the FI cars would run of and hide form the cheaper
not as well built Nascar iron."

I don't really care what your friends call them. A Nascar would crush your beloved F1, and keep running all day long. And you are aware that Nascar does run a road circuit with turns right? A race without turns is a drag race. Incidently, a dragster would kill an F1 in acceleration as well.



Showroom comparison , the best Honda , Toyota , Accura , and Lexus vs the BMW 760i,
M6 , M5 , Mercedes S600 , S65AMG , SLK55AMG , just to name a few. I forgot Porsche !
How many FI Championships has Honda won ?"

I see. Now you want to change the original question to fit your arguement. Before it was how may races has the japanese won. Now its championships. Your a loser, and can't even admit it.



I may be a fool but you can't read ! It is true you know little about cars , what do you know anything about ?
The European cars control international racing ! FI and sports cars ! The Japanese are still trying "READ" . The Italians , Germans and British has no peers when it comes to building great motor cars. Only Ford Motor Company has won an international championship as a non European . The Fords were developed in Great Britain . The first successful Ford GT'40s were driven by European drivers."

You must be drunk. Put down the scotch old man, its only 1:15 CST. The Europeans don't "own" anything. To pretend there is nothing comeing out of Japan, is the same reason the US got spanked in the 70's.



I don't blame you I blame the computer , we must read "BOOKS"

Yes we must read books. Perhaps you ought to start with a grammar book, then move onto a dictionary. Then come back. Batting you around like a rat by a cat is fun.

[SlumpBuster]

I'm done with Melvin until and unless he confirms that he is not a native english speaker or is physically unable to properly use a keyboard. How does Melvin bemoan the state of US schools when guys like Bert has better English grammer, vocabulary, and punctuation than this FOP? If US schools have failed, then they have perhaps failed Melvin the most. Unless, of course he is not native or is using a voice recognition program, for example.


On second thought, who am I kidding... I'll never be done with Melvin. He is too juicy and flavorful.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Methinks he's using some speech-recognition software - he's making a lot of the same grammatical mistakes - too many for coincidence. The "or"/"are" thing makes it hard to follow at times. Good on him for bashing our schools though.
I'm leaning in this direction also.

[JSE]

Who we talkin' bout here? Pix or Melvin?

Methinks he's using some speech-recognition software - he's making a lot of the same grammatical mistakes - too many for coincidence. The "or"/"are" thing makes it hard to follow at times. Good on him for bashing our schools though.

Ding Ding Ding! And the winner is Kex for outing Pix/Melvin!

It never even registered with me until I saw your post. Now it seems clear.

And BTW, it appears our old friend Lex/TLADINY/PS is back with us as well with definitely one new Screen Name and maybe 2 or 3 others.

JSE

[GMichael]

Ding Ding Ding! And the winner is Kex for outing Pix/Melvin!

It never even registered with me until I saw your post. Now it seems clear.

And BTW, it appears our old friend Lex/TLADINY/PS is back with us as well with definitely one new Screen Name and maybe 2 or 3 others.

JSE

Actually, Kex is only the second person that I've seen make this statement.

[Ajani]

I'm done with Melvin until and unless he confirms that he is not a native english speaker or is physically unable to properly use a keyboard. How does Melvin bemoan the state of US schools when guys like Bert has better English grammer, vocabulary, and punctuation than this FOP? If US schools have failed, then they have perhaps failed Melvin the most. Unless, of course he is not native or is using a voice recognition program, for example.


On second thought, who am I kidding... I'll never be done with Melvin. He is too juicy and flavorful.

Melvin is juicy and flavorful?

Ummmm....

Ok then.....

[SlumpBuster]

Melvin is juicy and flavorful?

Ummmm....

Ok then.....

Mmmmmmmm......Melvin.... Uhrrlrlrehlehhgglggllgghah!

[E-Stat]

How many FI Championships has Honda won ?
Six in a row from 1986-1991. Unlike BMW, Honda is also competitive at the international level with their motorcycles. Add twelve more.


Only Ford Motor Company has won an international championship as a non European
See above for correct answer.


The first successful Ford GT'40s were driven by European drivers.
The correct answer is Americans Dan Gurney, Jerry Grant, Mark Donahue, and Mario Andretti were among the drivers involved in the historic 1-2-3 finish at the Le Mans 'Vingt-Quatre Heures in '66.

We're still talking about cars?

rw

[SlumpBuster]

Check me out! Am I driving to work or am I winning Le Mans?!?
You be the judge!

Get a load of my fly lane incursion!

http://media.ebaumsworld.com/2006/07/clunker_5.jpg

[E-Stat]

A Nascar would crush your beloved F1...
Let's not go overboard here. While that would be true in a frontal collision, there is little to compare from a performance perspective. A carbon fiber bodied F1 chassis weighs about a third that of a stocker and has the same power (depending on which year formula you choose). A stocker would be launched off the track sideways into the parking lot at the 4G lateral cornering capability of F1 cars. Braking capability is likewise in a different ball park.

Arguably, NASCAR is more entertaining to watch because of the many lead changes and of course, 'rubbin's racin'. Having said that, I've attended two GPs at Indy. I've heard large displacement V-8s before, but there's nothing like the shriek of an F1's engine at 18,000 RPM. They use pneumatically actuated valves.

rw

[JohnMichael]

Ding Ding Ding! And the winner is Kex for outing Pix/Melvin!

It never even registered with me until I saw your post. Now it seems clear.

And BTW, it appears our old friend Lex/TLADINY/PS is back with us as well with definitely one new Screen Name and maybe 2 or 3 others.

JSE



Melvin seems to be just Melvin, sadly, misinformation and all.

[markw]

I've heard large displacement V-8s before, but there's nothing like the shriek of an F1's engine at 18,000 RPM. They use pneumatically actuated valves.You should try standing three feet away from a top fuel dragster when it boots up. The ground literally shakes and your guts feel like they're made of jello. That's a once in a lifetime thing in my book.

CART races are fun, though.

[melvin walker]

I only request your reply be even more vague than the above example of your nonsensical writing. What year are you discussing? When was McLaren penalized? Every year? One year? Mercedes lost all its points wh





I don't really care what your friends call them. A Nascar would crush your beloved F1, and keep running all day long. And you are aware that Nascar does run a road circuit with turns right? A race without turns is a drag race. Incidently, a dragster would kill an F1 in acceleration as we



I see. Now you want to change the original question to fit your arguement. Before it was how may races has the japanese won. Now its championships. Your a loser, and can't even admit it.



You must be drunk. Put down the scotch old man, its only 1:15 CST. The Europeans don't "own" anything. To pretend there is nothing comeing out of Japan, is the same reason the US got spanked in the 70's.



Yes we must read books. Perhaps you ought to start with a grammar book, then move onto a dictionary. Then come back. Batting you around like a rat by a cat is fun.
Man go to the F1 website and read. There you will find the answers to all your questions.
As for as the Japanese spanking America in the 1970's , take a look at the Japanese GNP , than take a look at the United States GNP. Now and in 1970.

Nascar is for the "Good ole Boys" country , whiskey running. Cheap American iron.
Drag racing is for those who race on a limited budget. Come think of it so is Nascar.
Don't drink, smoke or chew. I do read . You should try that some time.
it is said that reading helps separate the man from the Ape. How long are your arms ?
Better watch out now I am beginning to sound like the rest of you.
Last comment on this issue.

[Rich-n-Texas]

You should try standing three feet away from a top fuel dragster when it boots up. The ground literally shakes and your guts feel like they're made of jello. That's a once in a lifetime thing in my book.
Englishtown right?

I started an annual treck to the Texas Motorplex to see the O'Reilly Nationals with some of my co-workers a few years ago, and everytime a newbie came along; to see the look on his/her face when a top fueler's scootin' down the 1/4 is priceless, just priceless. I want that same chest thumping action out of my sub! :yesnod:

[GMichael]

You should try standing three feet away from a top fuel dragster when it boots up. The ground literally shakes and your guts feel like they're made of jello. That's a once in a lifetime thing in my book.

CART races are fun, though.

Yeah, once was enough for me. Couldn't stop my ears from ringing for a week.

But yeah, they was fast!

We sat though all the early races. 440's, 427's, 428's, 4 barrel carbs, double 4 barrels, 6 packs etc. All the cars we THOUGHT were fast.
1st geeeeeeeeeeeeer
2nd geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer
3rd geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeer
4th geeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Then the top fuelers came out.
Just
ROAAAAAR.. done.
Holey chit!

[GMichael]

Englishtown right?

I started an annual treck to the Texas Motorplex to see the O'Reilly Nationals with some of my co-workers a few years ago, and everytime a newbie came along; to see the look on his/her face when a top fueler's scootin' down the 1/4 is priceless, just priceless. I want that same chest thumping action out of my sub! :yesnod:

Better get stronger glass in them windows!

[melvin walker]

Let's not go overboard here. While that would be true in a frontal collision, there is little to compare from a performance perspective. A carbon fiber bodied F1 chassis weighs about a third that of a stocker and has the same power (depending on which year formula you choose). A stocker would be launched off the track sideways into the parking lot at the 4G lateral cornering capability of F1 cars. Braking capability is likewise in a different ball park.

Arguably, NASCAR is more entertaining to watch because of the many lead changes and of course, 'rubbin's racin'. Having said that, I've attended two GPs at Indy. I've heard large displacement V-8s before, but there's nothing like the shriek of an F1's engine at 18,000 RPM. They use pneumatically actuated valves.

rw
There is a man that not only reads but understands what he reads. You are correct , I might add that a F1 car cost 10 times more to development and the cost to race them is hundreds times more. In The Manufacture Sports Car Championship the cost is also very high. That is why only factory sponsored cars win championships.
Sport cars are much more powerful than Nascar's cars. Unless limited sport cars can have horsepower in excess of 1000 horsepower.
The Porsche 917's in the 1970's maximum power output could exceed 1000bph ! and reach a top speed on the track of 239mph. From their 16 cylinder turbocharged engines .

I have attended F1 races in Europe but never one here in America. I have attended Manufacture Sports car racing many times here in America. Porsche club here in America goes out of their way in providing services to members at the races , many times free food , beverages and a place to mingle with other members.

The technology of these racing cars both F1 and sports is unbelievable.

[E-Stat]

You should try standing three feet away from a top fuel dragster when it boots up. The ground literally shakes and your guts feel like they're made of jello. That's a once in a lifetime thing in my book.
You have a good point about the 5k HP quarter-mile-orgasm fuelies. What's the MTBO for running those engines at speed? Thirty seconds? :)

rw

[Groundbeef]

Let's not go overboard here. While that would be true in a frontal collision, there is little to compare from a performance perspective. A carbon fiber bodied F1 chassis weighs about a third that of a stocker and has the same power (depending on which year formula you choose). A stocker would be launched off the track sideways into the parking lot at the 4G lateral cornering capability of F1 cars. Braking capability is likewise in a different ball park.

Arguably, NASCAR is more entertaining to watch because of the many lead changes and of course, 'rubbin's racin'. Having said that, I've attended two GPs at Indy. I've heard large displacement V-8s before, but there's nothing like the shriek of an F1's engine at 18,000 RPM. They use pneumatically actuated valves.

rw

No, I'm talking "physical crush". In a bump-n-grind the Nascar driver would drive away every time. That carbon fiber would dust up, (right after the wheels broke off).

F1 is fast, but it's "delicate".

I'm more of a slow paced racer. Demo Derby is more my speed. If you've never seen the movie Jackass before, rent it. There are only 2 good parts, but its worth the $2 rental for them.

1 of them is titled "Rental Car Demolition Derby". All I will say is that the Jackass crew rent a car from a local rental place and enter it in a demo derby. It was a BRAND new car. Just imagine the hilarity when they return it. It makes me laugh thinking about it.

[markw]

Englishtown right?

I started an annual treck to the Texas Motorplex to see the O'Reilly Nationals with some of my co-workers a few years ago, and everytime a newbie came along; to see the look on his/her face when a top fueler's scootin' down the 1/4 is priceless, just priceless. I want that same chest thumping action out of my sub! :yesnod:We used to do work for a local autompbile parts chain and we got all kindsa comps to all kindsa races in the area. Along twith tMaple Shade, we also got passes to CART races in Nazarath. PA, NASCAR in Long Pond, PA, and even CART racing for the few years they had it in the Meadowlands in the late 80's.

Best part was the free sponsor food and preferrred seating. When the Porsche team had us in Nazarath, they served T-bones.

We got to meet all the big names. ...even did a few New Years Eve parties with the Andrettis in a club near their homes in the PA, and this was not part of the company perks.

but, they sold in the early 90's and all that went "poof!"

[melvin walker]

Better get stronger glass in them windows!

When I was a younger man I dragged raced , drove a Chevrolet 327 and later a Chevrolet 409
Raced in Alton,Illinois. That was doing the 1960's , I had a 1962 , 327 and a .1963 409.
Got out of drag racing when I purchased a 1964 327 Corvette.

I had a 1960 Chevrolet 284 but only raced on the street with that. Attended a number of drag races in the Midwest , also on the west coast.
Lots of fun , moved away from domestic cars when I bought a 1968 E-Type Jaguar.

In the 1960's the in thing was a Corvette and a Playboy Key. Corvette was stolen , got married the Playboy Club moved out of St.Louis. The bachelor in paradise days had come to an end !

[Groundbeef]

Drag racing is for those who race on a limited budget. Come think of it so is Nascar.

Last comment on this issue.

Ok, first the obvious stupidity of your response. All race teams are on a "limited budget". Name me 1 F1 team that is on an unlimited budget. There are none. They may have larger budgets, but its not unlimited. BMW, Mercedes, and the rest of the lot all have budgets.

And unless you are Warren Buffet, I seriously doubt you could underwrite the cost of a Nascar or Drag Race team.

The breadth of your idiocy has no bounds I see.

BTW nice sidestep on E-stat spanking your ass about no Japanese winning F1 championships. I don't suppose you care to address that issue?

[Mr Peabody]

I won an Infinity racing jacket and T-shirt from spiffs while a sales rep and I once saw Nascar and F1 while changing channels, can I be cool too? Oh YEAH! on a trip to Wal-Mart they had a Tide sponsored race car parked outside for ussins' to amuse ourselves on. Bonus points for that?

Wasn't this an audio thread at one time?

[Slippers On]

Ok - can we all agree then that America makes crap cars that can't go around corners, their education system has been eaten up by Political Correctness, the Brits made the best Hi-Fi and Melvin loves to dig holes to fall into:5:


Emaidel......any more juicy bits to whet the appetite? Perhaps you have some 1960's sh*t on a certain Melvin Wa*ker :) ?????


Slippers by the Hearth

[E-Stat]

No, I'm talking "physical crush". In a bump-n-grind the Nascar driver would drive away every time. That carbon fiber would dust up, (right after the wheels broke off).
As sponsor of both NASCAR and F1 racing venues, Hewlett Packard promoted some track time between two of their drivers in a Car & Driver article - at the wheel of the other's ride. It was Juan Pablo Montoya and Jeff Gordon. Regarding the relative skills of these top-of-their-game guys, guess who came closer to the other's best track time in their own ride?

rw

[melvin walker]

Ok, first the obvious stupidity of your response. All race teams are on a "limited budget". Name me 1 F1 team that is on an unlimited budget. There are none. They may have larger budgets, but its not unlimited. BMW, Mercedes, and the rest of the lot all have budgets.

And unless you are Warren Buffet, I seriously doubt you could underwrite the cost of a Nascar or Drag Race team.

The breadth of your idiocy has no bounds I see.

BTW nice sidestep on E-stat spanking your ass about no Japanese winning F1 championships. I don't suppose you care to address that issue?
Factories can afford to spend millions indidviduals cannot. Fiat which owns Ferrari has spent millions to sponsor Ferrari racing teams . Unlimited budgets where did you get that from. Ford motor Co. Spent millions winning the Manufacturer Sports Car Championship. The development cost is unreal. The Ford GT40 was a result of all that money spent , plus beating Ferrari.

The NASCAR teams as posted earlier are for less costly to operate. Toyota has spent more than a $100,000,000 developing and racing F1 cars with Williams.
Remember only FT cars can call themselves world champion and the drivers world champion drivers.

I do remember that when Ford set out to beat Ferrari , there was a unlimited budget.
Ford was forced to develop a brand new car.

[melvin walker]

I won an Infinity racing jacket and T-shirt from spiffs while a sales rep and I once saw Nascar and F1 while changing channels, can I be cool too? Oh YEAH! on a trip to Wal-Mart they had a Tide sponsored race car parked outside for ussins' to amuse ourselves on. Bonus points for that?

Wasn't this an audio thread at one time?

Check this out in 1963 I had made several changes to my audio system.
A pair of JBL C34 speakers using the 001 speaker system , Fisher , 400CX preamp , SA1000 power amp , 200B tuner and an Empire 398 TT with a Empire 880PE cartridge.

An improvement from my previous system. Those improvement would continue through out the 70's.Improvements was made adding new as well as used audio equipment.
None of the 1963 system was purchased used. That was to take place later.

All of the equipment listed above was sold by 1970.

[Rich-n-Texas]

We used to do work for a local autompbile parts chain and we got all kindsa comps to all kindsa races in the area. Along twith tMaple Shade, we also got passes to CART races in Nazarath. PA, NASCAR in Long Pond, PA, and even CART racing for the few years they had it in the Meadowlands in the late 80's.

Best part was the free sponsor food and preferrred seating. When the Porsche team had us in Nazarath, they served T-bones.

We got to meet all the big names. ...even did a few New Years Eve parties with the Andrettis in a club near their homes in the PA, and this was not part of the company perks.

but, they sold in the early 90's and all that went "poof!"
I think you meant Maple Grove Raceway Mark.

The second NASCAR race I went to was Pocono in '89, the first race was at Dover. Back then, the banking at Dover was 36 degrees; we watched the race from the infield, and let me tell you how loud 42 cars sounded when the green flag dropped, then four + hours of sweet unrestricted American V8 power. When NASCAR started running the pace car through pit road so the drivers could check their tachs for the correct speed before they dropped the green, we'd stand as close as we could behind the pits when the drivers went through with their motors all wound up, and the roar from that parade was absolutely mind blowing.

Many great memories of the ol' Winston Cup races back in the 90's.

[E-Stat]

Fiat which owns Ferrari has spent millions to sponsor Ferrari racing teams .
There is no doubt a special history with Ferrari. They built road cars to fund racing. Virtually every other maker builds race cars to promote and develop their road cars.


The Ford GT40 was a result of all that money spent , plus beating Ferrari...I do remember that when Ford set out to beat Ferrari , there was a unlimited budget.
Do you remember the story behind the story? Henry the Second offered to buy out Enzo. The fiesty Italian declined (which was probably the best choice long term). Well, that pissed off Mr. Ford. He vowed to kick Ferrari's ass. He accomplished that four years running at Lemans.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

Have you seen the Ferrari Merridian nearly $3k table radio? It does have CD & DVD playback as well. This has to be for those who have too much money, I can't imagine something like that being worth $3k.

[markw]

I think you meant Maple Grove Raceway Mark.You're right. Getting old can do strange things to your memory.


The second NASCAR race I went to was Pocono in '89, the first race was at Dover. Back then, the banking at Dover was 36 degrees; we watched the race from the infield, and let me tell you how loud 42 cars sounded when the green flag dropped, then four + hours of sweet unrestricted American V8 power. When NASCAR started running the pace car through pit road so the drivers could check their tachs for the correct speed before they dropped the green, we'd stand as close as we could behind the pits when the drivers went through with their motors all wound up, and the roar from that parade was absolutely mind blowing.

Many great memories of the ol' Winston Cup races back in the 90's.We have friends in Symmrna, which is right next to dover. That place is a madhouse on race weekend. Everyone avoids Rt.t 13 on race weekend. The only way any sane person attends is to go down a few days before and with a self-contained camper.

Long Pond is a bit better but,t hen again, it doesn't host any of the big races like Dover does. ...or is that Dover downs? ;)

[markw]

I won an Infinity racing jacket and T-shirt from spiffs while a sales rep and I once saw Nascar and F1 while changing channels, can I be cool too? Oh YEAH! on a trip to Wal-Mart they had a Tide sponsored race car parked outside for ussins' to amuse ourselves on. Bonus points for that?

Wasn't this an audio thread at one time?I think there's a little miscegenation going on between this thread and the one on "what other hobbies do we share"

Oh well, that's all right. It's all in the family.

... at least that's what they would say in the deep south.

[bobsticks]

Man go to the F1 website and read. There you will find the answers to all your questions.
As for as the Japanese spanking America in the 1970's , take a look at the Japanese GNP , than take a look at the United States GNP. Now and in 1970.

Nascar is for the "Good ole Boys" country , whiskey running. Cheap American iron.
Drag racing is for those who race on a limited budget. Come think of it so is Nascar.
Don't drink, smoke or chew. I do read . You should try that some time.
it is said that reading helps separate the man from the Ape. How long are your arms ?
Better watch out now I am beginning to sound like the rest of you.
Last comment on this issue.

Evidently the translator program has been updated. When did you hit the "idiom" button, Melvin?

[kexodusc]

Ding Ding Ding! And the winner is Kex for outing Pix/Melvin!

It never even registered with me until I saw your post. Now it seems clear.

And BTW, it appears our old friend Lex/TLADINY/PS is back with us as well with definitely one new Screen Name and maybe 2 or 3 others.

JSE
Nah, these guys aren't the same...I wasn't implying they were...Just that the comments from GM I quoted made it hard to determine who he was referring to.

Melvin is a bit more clever than Pix...when faced with overhwhelming facts dismissing his arguments, he just avoids the issue and changes the subject. Pix fails to understand what you are saying (or just doesn't read your comments) and keeps bulldozing his way through the argument.

He's kinda like the Costanza-philosophy - it's not incorrect if you believe it!

[emaidel]

As for as Consumers Reports is concerned , what publication or source offers better informed test than Consumers Reports ? .

I've been a subscriber to Consumer Reports (CR) since the 60's. While I've always found it interesting reading, I've bitterly disagreed with many of their product ratings, especially when it came to audio equipment. In the late 60's, if one were to believe them, there was only ONE audio system for anyone to buy:

Fisher 500T (or, Lafayette LR-1500T)
AR2ax
Dual 1019
Shure V/15 Type II

while there wasn't anything inherently wrong with any of that equipment, not every liked the sound of an AR2ax (I certainly didn't) and as good as the Shure cartridge was, it had a very low output and without an adjustable phono level input, it was a poor match for many a receiver. I don't remember if the Fisher had it, but I know the Lafayette unit did, and even it didn't provide enough gain resulting in a very lackluster sound when paired with the Shure.

When the AR3a was introduced, a speaker which almost everyone felt was a huge improvment over the original AR3, CR actually stated that it wasn't as good as either the original AR3, or even the AR2ax. They actually said this!

In the 80's, CR tested what they called "expensive" loudspeakers. The top-rated speaker was a Marantz model (!!!), and second was the ESS AMT1-b. I worked for ESS at the time, and wouldn't ever own a 1b because I thought it sounded lousy. Still, we used the test report to help us sell the speaker.

And where was my beloved Dahlquist DQ-10 in CR's ratings? Way, way down the list, and with its bass response indicated as "average." As good as the speaker is, its bass response doesn't even come close to "average."

CR had no business then, and still doesn't now, rating anything that has a subjective nature to it, and that included just about all loudspeakers.

On another note, CR used to test cereals by feeding the cereal mixed with water (not milk) to laboratory rats, and measured the growth in the rats as their dietary needs are similar to those of humans. Milk was deliberately not used as the nutritional value of milk was well known, and it was just that of the cereal that was being tested.

Using this test standard, shredded wheat fared very poorly, and Special K came in first. Later, when they ran the identical tests with newer cereals, shredded wheat came in first, and CR simply stated they "didn't know" why there was such a disparity.

You may find your support for CR flagging when you take a look at the most recent issue. The Cadillac CTX was rated over both a BMW and a Mercedes, and two Japanese cars (the Acura TL and the Infinity GX) were rated over the Cadillac. That ought to squash your balloon!

[melvin walker]

I've been a subscriber to Consumer Reports (CR) since the 60's. While I've always found it interesting reading, I've bitterly disagreed with many of their product ratings, especially when it came to audio equipment. In the late 60's, if one were to believe them, there was only ONE audio system for anyone to buy:

Fisher 500T (or, Lafayette LR-1500T)
AR2ax
Dual 1019
Shure V/15 Type II

while there wasn't anything inherently wrong with any of that equipment, not every liked the sound of an AR2ax (I certainly didn't) and as good as the Shure cartridge was, it had a very low output and without an adjustable phono level input, it was a poor match for many a receiver. I don't remember if the Fisher had it, but I know the Lafayette unit did, and even it didn't provide enough gain resulting in a very lackluster sound when paired with the Shure.

When the AR3a was introduced, a speaker which almost everyone felt was a huge improvment over the original AR3, CR actually stated that it wasn't as good as either the original AR3, or even the AR2ax. They actually said this!

In the 80's, CR tested what they called "expensive" loudspeakers. The top-rated speaker was a Marantz model (!!!), and second was the ESS AMT1-b. I worked for ESS at the time, and wouldn't ever own a 1b because I thought it sounded lousy. Still, we used the test report to help us sell the speaker.

And where was my beloved Dahlquist DQ-10 in CR's ratings? Way, way down the list, and with its bass response indicated as "average." As good as the speaker is, its bass response doesn't even come close to "average."

CR had no business then, and still doesn't now, rating anything that has a subjective nature to it, and that included just about all loudspeakers.

On another note, CR used to test cereals by feeding the cereal mixed with water (not milk) to laboratory rats, and measured the growth in the rats as their dietary needs are similar to those of humans. Milk was deliberately not used as the nutritional value of milk was well known, and it was just that of the cereal that was being tested.

Using this test standard, shredded wheat fared very poorly, and Special K came in first. Later, when they ran the identical tests with newer cereals, shredded wheat came in first, and CR simply stated they "didn't know" why there was such a disparity.

You may find your support for CR flagging when you take a look at the most recent issue. The Cadillac CTX was rated over both a BMW and a Mercedes, and two Japanese cars (the Acura TL and the Infinity GX) were rated over the Cadillac. That ought to squash your balloon!

I agree with most of your points , I have a pair of AR2a and agree that the AR3a was an improvement over the AR3. Most of those who read consumers Report are not hobbyist,
Consumers report is the only game in town. We can all pick some test that we disagree with . I don't always agree with CR , there are many reports I agree with and use CR , To help assist me in making informed decisions.

I don't use consumer Reports in assisting me in buying cars , clothes , audio or any high end item. That is not what CR is for. CR is for the average consumer. Those who are not research oriented.
Where can I go and get an unbiased test on a toaster , cloths dryer , or refrigerator ?

[JSE]

Nah, these guys aren't the same...I wasn't implying they were...Just that the comments from GM I quoted made it hard to determine who he was referring to.

Melvin is a bit more clever than Pix...when faced with overhwhelming facts dismissing his arguments, he just avoids the issue and changes the subject. Pix fails to understand what you are saying (or just doesn't read your comments) and keeps bulldozing his way through the argument.

He's kinda like the Costanza-philosophy - it's not incorrect if you believe it!

My bad, I do bet they have the same mother though! They have to be related. :rolleyes5:

[melvin walker]

There is no doubt a special history with Ferrari. They built road cars to fund racing. Virtually every other maker builds race cars to promote and develop their road cars.


Do you remember the story behind the story? Henry the Second offered to buy out Enzo. The fiesty Italian declined (which was probably the best choice long term). Well, that pissed off Mr. Ford. He vowed to kick Ferrari's ass. He accomplished that four years running at Lemans.

rw

I remember the story , it cost Ford millions to defeat Ferrari. I might add the Ford GT's were developed in Great Britain not America. The GT's were tested and than raced by Europeans. After achieving success , American drivers were than allowed to race the Ford GT's.

To further expand on the story , Ferrari a small company did not have the money to compete with the wealth of Ford Motor Company. The Europeans appealed to Mercedes to get back in sport car racing.
Mercedes declined but agreed to work with Porsche to develop a car that would defeat Ford.
The all conquering Porsche 917's appeared and the rest is history.
Not only did the Porsche's defeat Ford but when rule changes outlawed them , they came to America and dominated the Cam-Am series , until rule were changed again.
At this point Porsche retired the 917's.

[Mr Peabody]

I bet Speed Racer could beat them all! And he's American and so is the Mach 5.

[melvin walker]

Six in a row from 1986-1991. Unlike BMW, Honda is also competitive at the international level with their motorcycles. Add twelve more.


See above for correct answer.


The correct answer is Americans Dan Gurney, Jerry Grant, Mark Donahue, and Mario Andretti were among the drivers involved in the historic 1-2-3 finish at the Le Mans 'Vingt-Quatre Heures in '66.

We're still talking about cars?

rw

The winning Fords in 1966 at LeMans was driven by Chris Amon and Bruce McLaren , they won LeMans by a few feet from their team-mates Hulmes and Miles.
All the drivers were Europeans !
Ford won the World Sport Car Championship in 1966 the only year Ford won.
LeMans is only one race in the Sports Car championship series.
Ford finished third in the World Sport Car Champion ship 1967 and was no longer a factor in the World Sports Car Championship series


Ferrari won the World Sport Car Championship in 1967 , after that the series was dominated by Porsche for the next several years beginning in 1968.

Formula one / Grand Prix or constructors Championship is a series where a manufacture
builds a car or there is a combination chassis and engine. Honda built only the engine , McClaren built the chassis. Ferrari ,and Renault builds the entire car chassis plus engine.

[melvin walker]

As sponsor of both NASCAR and F1 racing venues, Hewlett Packard promoted some track time between two of their drivers in a Car & Driver article - at the wheel of the other's ride. It was Juan Pablo Montoya and Jeff Gordon. Regarding the relative skills of these top-of-their-game guys, guess who came closer to the other's best track time in their own ride?

rw

it just doesn't cost much to compete in NASCAR. It's a down home good ole boys race.
Toyota spends close to $100,000,000 a year to race in F1 with limited results. Honda was successful after spending millions but only their engine was used
Before retiring Michael Schmacher was one of the highest paid sports performers in the world , Ferrari paid him $25,000,000 dollars a year to drive their cars.

F1 is an international sport , NASCAR , well it 's a down home car race , like running whiskey , where it's history began.
NASCAR is nice if you drink Busch beer and wear Levis jeans.

[Mr Peabody]

it just doesn't cost much to compete in NASCAR. It's a down home good ole boys race.
Toyota spends close to $100,000,000 a year to race in F1 with limited results. Honda was successful after spending millions but only their engine was used
Before retiring Michael Schmacher was one of the highest paid sports performers in the world , Ferrari paid him $25,000,000 dollars a year to drive their cars.

F1 is an international sport , NASCAR , well it 's a down home car race , like running whiskey , where it's history began.
NASCAR is nice if you drink Busch beer and wear Levis jeans.

You might be a REDNECK if......^

[emaidel]

Ah, er, getting back on topic..., at least, that is, until Melvin chimes in with another archaic rant about life in the dark ages, I thought I'd explain to anyone interested just what the differences were between PIckering and Stanton.

The answer to the question, "What's the difference?" is, "Absolutely nothing." Aside from cosmetics, packaging and marketing, there was no difference whatsoever between many Pickering and Stanton models.

The name of the company originally was "Pickering and Company," owned by Norman A. PIckering, whom Walter Stanton bought out in the mid 50's. Things were running smoothly until Allied Radio (with Lafayette, and others quickly following suit) introduced the "penny cartridge deal." Turntables with list prices of, say, $79.95 could now be purchased for only an additional one cent ($79.96) and have an included cartridge from Shure, Pickering or Empire all valued at about $46.00 This "penny deal" was targeted primarily to mail order customers, as they had no idea that both the turntable and cartridge were ordinarily discounted at retail by at least 20%. Still, it was a good deal.

Walter was outraged. His product now, at least in his mind, was perceived as being worth only one cent, instead of its list price of $46.00. Then, he solved that problem (and more than doubled his sales) by what has to have been one of the most brilliant marketing decisions in the history of the business. Instead of painting the cartridge body, he chose to leave it a polished metal, and had his engineers re-tool the plastic shape on the stylus handle (and dust brush, on those models so equipped). Now, with at least a different looking cartridge, he had it boxed in a more elaborate package, along with both a "pill" box (for extra styli, but which ultimately was used for many of the drugs rampant in the business in the 70's), the famous Stanton screwdriver, and even went as far as to calibrate each, and include a calibration document.

Now, with a "different" product, he priced it about 20% higher than the Pickering equivalent, and distributed it through a completely separate sales team. He was certain also that no Stanton cartridge ever became part of the "penny deal" either.

Insofar as improvements and engineering developments, one company (Pickering, for example) would get one improvement, and then the other (Stanton) would get a later one. Specifically, around 1973, Pickering introduced its XV/15-1200E for a list price of $79.95, which was quite high for a Pickering cartridge. The original 1200 was a fair to middling product: it didn't track as well as the Shure V/15 Type II, nor was it able to handle high levels without "cracking," and had a terrible time with overly sibiliant "S's," such as those often heard on records by groups like Sergio Mendes and Brazil '66.

The 1200 was packaged in a gold metal box, and had a gold metal body, along with a gold-finished "Dustamatic Brush." It wasn't particularly successful, for obvious reasons. PIckering cartridges at the time were sold with such marketing nonsense as "100% Music Power," while Stantons were hailed as "The Choice of the Professional," as they had become practically the only cartridge used on every FM radio station across the country.

All of the deficiencies of the 1200 were addressed and corrected, and the result was the legendary Stanton 681-EEE. The list price of the "triple E," as it came to be known, was well over $100, and it was packaged in a large, solid walnut box that actually cost the company $5 (a huge increase over the cost of other packaging for other Stanton, or PIckering models). As the Triple E did indeed sound better than the original Pickering 1200, it was considered a far better cartridge, even though each and every change that went into the Triple E went into production units of the 1200 too.

PIckering later introduced the XUV-4500Q which was, and remains (in my opinion) the finest ever cartridge to play CD-4 records. It was also the only cartridge to do so at 1 gram. Unfortunately, for PIckering, the 4500 was launched at about the same time the entire quad industry collapsed, and so almost no one bought it. That was actually quite a shame, as it was a superb "regular" stereo cartridge, but its association with quad was a major turnoff.

As sales of Triple E's were still going through the roof (well over 10,000 per month!), Stanton saw no need for a new model, and certainly didn't want an equivalent of a dead horse like the 4500, and so it continued along its merry way. Then, Pickering, as a result of the countless requests from the sales department, re-engineered the 4500 into a standard stereo cartrdige, with a less drastic "line contact" tip, and introduced the legendary Pickering XSV-3000.

The 3000, at the time, was far and away the best cartridge Pickering, or Stanton, had ever made, and the fact that it outperformed the Triple E didn't sit well with the Stanton Sales Managers or representatives. Then, in a disguised form (at least cosmetically) it was reincarnated into the Stanton 881-S. There was NO difference whatsoever between the two, other than cosmetics and packaging. And, of course, that all-important "Calibration Sheet."

Today, Stanton is a company dedicated to the DJ business, and rightfully so as the market for moving magnet "Hi-Fi" cartridges is infinitessimal as compared to both the market for DJ cartridges, as well as the cartridge market in the heyday of the industry.

The finest cartridge made by Stanton was the Collector's Series CS-100, which was actually a hand-tweaked 881-S MKII with such ditties as a sapphire-coated, beryllium cantilever, and a nude Stereohedron stylus. I use the CS-100, and prefer it to the Denon 103D, as well as the Ortofon MC-20 MKII. The Collector's Series CS-100 owes its existence to the lowly Pickering XSV-3000, which is where its design all started.

[Mr Peabody]

If I remember right, I think the 681 was the cartridge we shipped to radio stations. I can't remember the exact series we sold to consumers but it was the Stanton P-mount that came with an adaptor to use on a standard headshell. These were good sounding carts. I also really liked Ortofon, a bit in different to Shure and did not like Audio Technika. None of these were used with a "high end" table. This was back in the day of using my Pioneer PL-51 and whatever built in phono stage of gear I had at the time.

[emaidel]

The Stanton cartridge used by radio stations was primarily the 680-EL, or the 680-AL. the "E" had an elliptical stylus, and the "A" a conical one. The EL became quite popular in the DJ business until Ortofon introduced a version of its "Concorde" model as a plug-in. Stanton followed suit with its "Trackmaster," and so it goes....

[melvin walker]

Ah, er, getting back on topic..., at least, that is, until Melvin chimes in with another archaic rant about life in the dark ages, I thought I'd explain to anyone interested just what the differences were between PIckering and Stanton.

The answer to the question, "What's the difference?" is, "Absolutely nothing." Aside from cosmetics, packaging and marketing, there was no difference whatsoever between many Pickering and Stanton models.

The name of the company originally was "Pickering and Company," owned by Norman A. PIckering, whom Walter Stanton bought out in the mid 50's. Things were running smoothly until Allied Radio (with Lafayette, and others quickly following suit) introduced the "penny cartridge deal." Turntables with list prices of, say, $79.95 could now be purchased for only an additional one cent ($79.96) and have an included cartridge from Shure, Pickering or Empire all valued at about $46.00 This "penny deal" was targeted primarily to mail order customers, as they had no idea that both the turntable and cartridge were ordinarily discounted at retail by at least 20%. Still, it was a good deal.

Walter was outraged. His product now, at least in his mind, was perceived as being worth only one cent, instead of its list price of $46.00. Then, he solved that problem (and more than doubled his sales) by what has to have been one of the most brilliant marketing decisions in the history of the business. Instead of painting the cartridge body, he chose to leave it a polished metal, and had his engineers re-tool the plastic shape on the stylus handle (and dust brush, on those models so equipped). Now, with at least a different looking cartridge, he had it boxed in a more elaborate package, along with both a "pill" box (for extra styli, but which ultimately was used for many of the drugs rampant in the business in the 70's), the famous Stanton screwdriver, and even went as far as to calibrate each, and include a calibration document.

Now, with a "different" product, he priced it about 20% higher than the Pickering equivalent, and distributed it through a completely separate sales team. He was certain also that no Stanton cartridge ever became part of the "penny deal" either.

Insofar as improvements and engineering developments, one company (Pickering, for example) would get one improvement, and then the other (Stanton) would get a later one. Specifically, around 1973, Pickering introduced its XV/15-1200E for a list price of $79.95, which was quite high for a Pickering cartridge. The original 1200 was a fair to middling product: it didn't track as well as the Shure V/15 Type II, nor was it able to handle high levels without "cracking," and had a terrible time with overly sibiliant "S's," such as those often heard on records by groups like Sergio Mendes and Brazil '66.

The 1200 was packaged in a gold metal box, and had a gold metal body, along with a gold-finished "Dustamatic Brush." It wasn't particularly successful, for obvious reasons. PIckering cartridges at the time were sold with such marketing nonsense as "100% Music Power," while Stantons were hailed as "The Choice of the Professional," as they had become practically the only cartridge used on every FM radio station across the country.

All of the deficiencies of the 1200 were addressed and corrected, and the result was the legendary Stanton 681-EEE. The list price of the "triple E," as it came to be known, was well over $100, and it was packaged in a large, solid walnut box that actually cost the company $5 (a huge increase over the cost of other packaging for other Stanton, or PIckering models). As the Triple E did indeed sound better than the original Pickering 1200, it was considered a far better cartridge, even though each and every change that went into the Triple E went into production units of the 1200 too.

PIckering later introduced the XUV-4500Q which was, and remains (in my opinion) the finest ever cartridge to play CD-4 records. It was also the only cartridge to do so at 1 gram. Unfortunately, for PIckering, the 4500 was launched at about the same time the entire quad industry collapsed, and so almost no one bought it. That was actually quite a shame, as it was a superb "regular" stereo cartridge, but its association with quad was a major turnoff.

As sales of Triple E's were still going through the roof (well over 10,000 per month!), Stanton saw no need for a new model, and certainly didn't want an equivalent of a dead horse like the 4500, and so it continued along its merry way. Then, Pickering, as a result of the countless requests from the sales department, re-engineered the 4500 into a standard stereo cartrdige, with a less drastic "line contact" tip, and introduced the legendary Pickering XSV-3000.

The 3000, at the time, was far and away the best cartridge Pickering, or Stanton, had ever made, and the fact that it outperformed the Triple E didn't sit well with the Stanton Sales Managers or representatives. Then, in a disguised form (at least cosmetically) it was reincarnated into the Stanton 881-S. There was NO difference whatsoever between the two, other than cosmetics and packaging. And, of course, that all-important "Calibration Sheet."

Today, Stanton is a company dedicated to the DJ business, and rightfully so as the market for moving magnet "Hi-Fi" cartridges is infinitessimal as compared to both the market for DJ cartridges, as well as the cartridge market in the heyday of the industry.

The finest cartridge made by Stanton was the Collector's Series CS-100, which was actually a hand-tweaked 881-S MKII with such ditties as a sapphire-coated, beryllium cantilever, and a nude Stereohedron stylus. I use the CS-100, and prefer it to the Denon 103D, as well as the Ortofon MC-20 MKII. The Collector's Series CS-100 owes its existence to the lowly Pickering XSV-3000, which is where its design all started.

Not you a person that considers history the dark ages , discussing Stanton and Pickering.
Better get my shotgun out , times have changed.
Back to your subject Pickering was an excellent cartridge , I never used one because most of the audiophiles in my group considered it inferior to other cartridages. When installing cartridges with high end arms most audio magazines did not include Stanton are Pickering in their test reports .

What was the name of the quality turntable that sold for $ 79.00 ? I was under the impression that few if any high end or quality transmission turntables non sold for less than $200.00 without an arm.

[SlumpBuster]

NASCAR is nice if you drink Busch beer and wear Levis jeans.

For the record I like High Life and Carhartt.

http://www.snorgtees.com/images/SpiderMonkey_Fullpic_1.gif

NASCAR!!! And because you're a tool, I bet you don't even get the joke.

[hydroman]

I worked for CC in the 80's...

I bought a car audio amplifier from a shop in Upstate NY and eventually let it short out (stoopid installer (me - D'oh!) ). I went to CC to buy the exact same amp (same model#) and it sounded half as loud/weighed half as much. HHHmmmH.

Also, along with the 'Guaranteed Lowest Price' promise of 'just bring in a competitor's ad and we will match it *if the exact same model number is in stock at the competitor' or refund 10% of the difference...

...then CC took care to have the model numbers for CC merchandise to be 'shifted' so we rarely had to honor the guarantee...

Mark up on cartridges? I am ashamed to say. Even with employee discount i bought my Shure V15 at RatShack (labeled as RatShack and still a great deal today!) for far less.

[E-Stat]

I remember the story , it cost Ford millions to defeat Ferrari. I might add the Ford GT's were developed in Great Britain not America. The GT's were tested...
You are aware that Ford has significant assets in the UK and Germany? Remember the Merkur? It was simply less expensive to leverage their relationship with Lola. Mercedes did the same thing with their F1 program. They simply bought a British firm called Illmor to build the engines. They had zero expertise themselves.


...and than raced by Europeans.
Some were, others weren't. Do you need to see the list of American drivers again? I'm certainly not always right about things, but I've yet to see you acknowledge a single time that many of your assertions-presented-as-fact are incorrect. I've yet to see you preface a comment with "I think..." or "My recollection is..." or anything that suggests you really don't know what you're talking about in those cases.

Here's a suggestion and you can take it or leave it. On topics for which I recall some information, but am not crystal clear in the details, I google the topic on the net and find a good source for factual information. Opinions are opinions, but always shootin' from the hip hasn't worked very well for you in the accuracy department.

rw

[markw]

I'm certainly not always right about things, but I've yet to see you acknowledge a single time that many of your assertions-presented-as-fact are incorrect. I've yet to see you preface a comment with "I think..." or "My recollection is..." or anything that suggests you really don't know what you're talking about in those cases.

Here's a suggestion and you can take it or leave it. On topics for which I recall some information, but am not crystal clear in the details, I google the topic on the net and find a good source for factual information. Opinions are opinions, but always shootin' from the hip hasn't worked very well for you in the accuracy department. Veracity isn't high on his list of concerns. Talking big and appeasing his own ego is the order of the day for this troll.

I guess one can live in their own virtual dream world thanks to the Internet. Where else can someone delude himself into believing what he posts is real?

Even if he knows no-one believes a word he says, maybe If he says it loud enough and often enough, maybe he'll believe it himself. ..sure seems like that to me.

..there are some advantages to encroaching dementia...

After watching my Mom slowly fade away over several years with dimentia, her escape from reality into a world of fantasy was a blessing for her. It let her relive happier days past, and many that never occurred, but it did provide her some solace from having her mind slowly slipping away.

I used to let mel get to me but actually, I kinda feel sorry for the old coot. It's fairly obvious that he's got nobody else that will listen to him, much less pay any attention to him. Here's a poor guy who always felt inferior because he couldn't have all the finer things he read about in the magazines but couldn't afford them. Now, thanks to a misfiring of the synapses in he brain, he has all he ever wanted and here, with a willing audience, he can finallt feel like he's getting some respect.

ya know whut ah mean, vern? ;)

[E-Stat]

I guess one can live in their own virtual dream world thanks to the Internet.
Worse still, immediate access to the wealth of fact based knowledge over the 'net can be used to make anyone appear quite learned.


ya know whut ah mean, vern? ;)
What we have here is a failure to accumulate. :)

rw

[Rich-n-Texas]

"And the beat goes on"

[JSE]

"And the beat goes on"


Great, now I have Glen Frey's song from Beverly Hills Cop stuck in my head. Thanks! :18:

And the best goes on....Duh nuh nuh nuh nuh, Duh nuh nuh nuh nuh.

Crap!

[markw]

Can you imagine having to deal with this pompus ash face-to-face on a daily basis?

He probably goes through caregivers faster than Murphy brown went through secretaties!

Sorry... I really shouldn't crack on him too much. He can't help who he is, but they really should limit his access to the internet!

[markw]

Great, now I have Glen Frey's song from Beverly Hills Cop stuck in my head. Thanks! :18:

And the best goes on....Duh nuh nuh nuh nuh, Duh nuh nuh nuh nuh.

Crap!I wuz thinkin' Sonny and Cher. I guess I'm gettin' old.

[JSE]

"And the beat goes on"


And where is my case o' Shiner? If my gun would un-jam, I might consider giving you a reddie. I'd consider it, probably would not do it though! :cornut:

[GMichael]

Great, now I have Glen Frey's song from Beverly Hills Cop stuck in my head. Thanks! :18:

And the best goes on....Duh nuh nuh nuh nuh, Duh nuh nuh nuh nuh.

Crap!

Maybe this will help:

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale..
A tale of a fatefull trip...
It started from this tropic port...
Aboard this tiny ship....
..........................................

[JSE]

I wuz thinkin' Sonny and Cher. I guess I'm gettin' old.


Ahhhhhhhh! Damit! :incazzato:

[JSE]

Maybe this will help:

Just sit right back and you'll hear a tale..
A tale of a fatefull trip...
It started from this tropic port...
Aboard this tiny ship....
..........................................


..........................:mad2:

[markw]

And where is my case o' Shiner? If my gun would un-jam, I might consider giving you a reddie. I'd consider it, probably would not do it though! :cornut:Somebody havin' a Shiner Bock party? Didja tell GMichael?

[Rich-n-Texas]

I wuz thinkin' Sonny and Cher. I guess I'm gettin' old.
Nailed it!!!

Sorry JSE, since you were wrong, and in lieu of a red chicklett, I'm afraid I'll have to suspend your Shinner shipment.

:ciappa:

[emaidel]

Not you a person that considers history the dark ages , discussing Stanton and Pickering.
Better get my shotgun out , times have changed.
Back to your subject Pickering was an excellent cartridge , I never used one because most of the audiophiles in my group considered it inferior to other cartridages. When installing cartridges with high end arms most audio magazines did not include Stanton are Pickering in their test reports .

What was the name of the quality turntable that sold for $ 79.00 ? I was under the impression that few if any high end or quality transmission turntables non sold for less than $200.00 without an arm.


I hardly know where to begin to respond to this, but have to still ask, "WILL YOU PLEASE LEARN TO SPELL PROPERLY, AND USE CORRECT GRAMMAR?" It would make your posts a lot easier to read and understand.

The "audiophiles in your group" might have been interested to learn that I gave Saul Marantz a Pickering XSV-3000 to use at a consumer hi-fi show in Philadelphia in 1977 to demonstrate the Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers. The next day, he came into the Pickering booth and told us it was the best sounding moving magnet cartridge he'd ever heard. After that, I offered Dahlquist employees the same employee discount PIckering dealers could get on the XSV-3000, and almost all of them bought one.

Insofar as audio magazines not using Pickering or Stanton cartridges, that's flatly not so. In reviewing the XSV-3000 in "Stereo Review," Julian HIrsch concluded by saying, "We don't see how you can do better at any price." That was quite some praise. Audio Magazine gave it high praise then also. Both the XSV-3000 and the Stanton 881-S were well reviewed in The Absolute Sound as well, with a far better review written for the Stanton than the Pickering, even though there wasn't any difference between the two.

Insofar as the "quality turntable that sold for $79," you're putting words in my mouth. Garrard models often sold for around that price at the time of the "penny deal," and many of them sold for $79.95, or even less. I'd hardly call them "quality" turntables, but then I never said they were in the first place. The AR turntable (a genuine stunner in its day) cost only $58 when it was first introduced, and you could purchase it with a PIckering, Shure or Empire cartridge for $58.01.

[Mr Peabody]

[QUOTE=E-Stat]Worse still, immediate access to the wealth of fact based knowledge over the 'net can be used to make anyone appear quite learned.

Oh yeah?! Some one should clue Pix in.

Wow, Melvin mentions Busch and everyone thinks it's 5:00

Jingle Bells... Jingle Bells.... Jingle All Da Way.... ay!

[markw]

Don't sweat the small stuff, emaidel. We all know mel's BSing you, and everyone else for that matter. don't take it personally. Either ignore him, or just have fun with it.

If he really had a clue as to what he's talking about, you durn know he would have bludgeoned you over the head with some swanky cartridge brand of the era. Apparently, info on them is not quite that easy to dig up on the Internet and you've caught him with his pants down.

...now that's a scary picture...

Keep on with your anecdotes. I, for one, find them interesting and I'm quite sure others appreciate them as well.

But, I gotta say, I'd really like to know what a "transmission turntable" is? Is it a three speed, four speed or an automatic? I have a hunch I know what he's trying to say but, with ... and my witness, I look forward to seeing him try to wriggle out of that one!

Oh, I'm going on 59, was born in Newark and raised in Union County, NJ. My first job was as an installer with Stuart's Audio in Westfield.

I had a Lafayette LA-1500 for a few days in '67 but it was a bit "noisy" for my tastes. Germanium transistors, perhaps?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Oh yeah?! Some one should clue Pix in.
:lol: We probably had that exact same thought at exactly the same time.

[SlumpBuster]

The next day, he came into the Pickering booth and told us it was the best sounding moving magnet cartridge he'd ever heard.


I will not continue this conversation unless you are willing to read 35 year old Stereo Reviews. I don't care if you were actually there. Everyone knows that Audiophiles don't use Moving Magnet carts! At least not the audiophiles in my group. :out:

;)

[melvin walker]

I hardly know where to begin to respond to this, but have to still ask, "WILL YOU PLEASE LEARN TO SPELL PROPERLY, AND USE CORRECT GRAMMAR?" It would make your posts a lot easier to read and understand.

The "audiophiles in your group" might have been interested to learn that I gave Saul Marantz a Pickering XSV-3000 to use at a consumer hi-fi show in Philadelphia in 1977 to demonstrate the Dahlquist DQ-10 speakers. The next day, he came into the Pickering booth and told us it was the best sounding moving magnet cartridge he'd ever heard. After that, I offered Dahlquist employees the same employee discount PIckering dealers could get on the XSV-3000, and almost all of them bought one.

Insofar as audio magazines not using Pickering or Stanton cartridges, that's flatly not so. In reviewing the XSV-3000 in "Stereo Review," Julian HIrsch concluded by saying, "We don't see how you can do better at any price." That was quite some praise. Audio Magazine gave it high praise then also. Both the XSV-3000 and the Stanton 881-S were well reviewed in The Absolute Sound as well, with a far better review written for the Stanton than the Pickering, even though there wasn't any difference between the two.

Insofar as the "quality turntable that sold for $79," you're putting words in my mouth. Garrard models often sold for around that price at the time of the "penny deal," and many of them sold for $79.95, or even less. I'd hardly call them "quality" turntables, but then I never said they were in the first place. The AR turntable (a genuine stunner in its day) cost only $58 when it was first introduced, and you could purchase it with a PIckering, Shure or Empire cartridge for $58.01.

How about that you again discussing history.
Now you are an ENGLISH and PHONICS expert , I use spell check do you? You repeat yourself maybe it's age.
I posted that Pickering was an excellent cartridge. I read the test reports of the two cartridges in several magazines.

Having never owned a Pickering or Stanton cartridge I respect your opinion. Again Saul Marantz , 1977 , Dahlquist speakers , an excellent speaker Saul Marantz is history and how long has it been since the Dahlquist DQ-10 was manufactured ?
Is any of the audio equipment you are discussing manufactured today ? if not you are discussing audio history , maybe you don't understand the definition of history.

Oh by the may I used spell check and checked your spelling , there was several mis-spelled words !

[SlumpBuster]

But, I gotta say, I'd really like to know what a "transmission turntable" is?

I saw that too. I bet that is what becomes of "transcription turntable" after rattling around inside Mel's cranium for a couple of decades.

[SlumpBuster]

Oh by the may I used spell check and checked your spelling , there was several mis-spelled words !

You tell him, Melvin!

[emaidel]

there was several mis-spelled words !


That's, "there were several Mis-spelled words."

Trying to reason with you is like trying to reason with a houseplant, so I'll just stop trying.

[melvin walker]

I saw that too. I bet that is what becomes of "transcription turntable" after rattling around inside Mel's cranium for a couple of decades.

In the early days of radio , the radio engineers used disk for recording rather than tape.
The turntabes were rather large 16 inch tables ,with 16 inch arms. The term "by transcripton" was used to describe how the program was broadcast. The playback was done on 16" transmission turntables using 16" tone arms.


The early turntables used the name transcription turntable although the tables was now 12 inches as a sign of quality and durability . Fairchild an outstanding turntable of the 50's and early 60's used the term" Farchild Transmission Turntable" , so did Empire , Rek-O-Kut and Thorens.
There was 16 inch arms and 16 inch tables for sale.

[melvin walker]

That's, "there were several Mis-spelled words."

Trying to reason with you is like trying to reason with a houseplant, so I'll just stop trying.

You don't reason with me , I am not your child or student. If you have a counterpoint make it !
A houseplant , you can do better than that. Learn to respect others opinion , than they will respect yours !

[emaidel]

I don't have too many more historical anecdotes to post, but here's one that I've thought about many times.

In 1967, Consumer Reports tested stereo receivers and gave the Lafayette LR-1200T a fairly decent rating, placing it squarely in the middle of the ratings. That unit was the first really good receiver ever under the Lafayette name, but it had been discontinued by then, and a new model wasn't going to be availble until early 1968. That model was the LR-1500T.

No Lafayette stores (with the possible exception of the 45th St. store in Manhattan) had any LR-1500T's in stock prior to January, 1968, when somehow, Consumer Reports had managed to get a hold of one and print a full two-page review on it, giving it their highest recommendation: that of being a "Check-Rated, Best Buy." It was as if God himself had declared the LR-1500T as "THE" receiver to own.

While the unit was actually pretty good (and, most weren't noisy as Markw's was), the question, "How did they get a hold of one?" was never answered. Here was a generally unavailable receiver heralded as the best available for the money by the most influential consumer testing publication in the world, and no one could say how CR ever obtained the unit they did.

Lafayette went on to improve the unit (the "TA" model copied H.H. Scott's "Perfectune" with a similar circuit called, "Acritune," among other things), and Consumer Reports continued to give the unit its Check Rated Best Buy accolade for a full five years running. Lafayette actually sold over 36,000 of them!

I've never accepted CR's ratings as sacrosanct, though millions of its readers do. And now, many years later, I sincerely believe that something decidedly underhanded resulted in that January, 1968 issue having that glowing review on the LR-1500T. There just doesn't seem to be any other explanation.

For those who may still be interested in this post's original intention (that is, "Pre-Melvin Walker"), my next installment will be an expose of the truly underhanded manner in which "The Absolute Sound" printed its horrible review on the Stanton Collector's Series CS-100, and how biased, and one-sided the young a**wipe who wrote it truly was. Stay tuned!

[emaidel]

Learn to respect others opinion , than they will respect yours !


But I do respect other's opinions - just not yours. And, it's "THEN," not "THAN" in the rest of your sentence..

I'm not the first one to criticize your poor spelling and grammar. Why is it you refuse to write properly? Even in your rebuttals to those who point out your errors, you continue to make still more. Why is that?

Insofar as my qualifications to "write history," I worked in this industry from 1962 until the early 2000's. From what I can tell, you read lots of audio magazines during that time frame. I'd say that puts us on two very different playing fields, no?

[Mr Peabody]

I still use moving magnet carts. It's just what I'm used to. I have been thinking about trying a Dynavector next which is closer to MC. No one has been able to tell me any good reason why MC is better to use over MM.

Who is Meg White?

[SlumpBuster]

In the early days of radio , the radio engineers used disk for recording rather than tape.
The turntabes were rather large 16 inch tables ,with 16 inch arms. The term "by transcripton" was used to describe how the program was broadcast. The playback was done on 16" transmission turntables using 16" tone arms.


The early turntables used the name transcription turntable although the tables was now 12 inches as a sign of quality and durability . Fairchild an outstanding turntable of the 50's and early 60's used the term" Farchild Transmission Turntable" , so did Empire , Rek-O-Kut and Thorens.
There was 16 inch arms and 16 inch tables for sale.

Probably not. When I Googled "transmission turntable," I get nothing. On the entire Internet, I can find no other reference to a "transmission turntable" other than your post. On the other hand, I get thousands of hits for "transcription turntable" including the Rek-O-Kut and Thorens.

Why don't you come over to my house? I got a 16 inch arm to show you.

[SlumpBuster]

I still use moving magnet carts. It's just what I'm used to. I have been thinking about trying a Dynavector next which is closer to MC. No one has been able to tell me any good reason why MC is better to use over MM.

Who is Meg White?


I was kidding about MM. Here is Meg White. For some reason I can't embed the video, just click on the link.

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QKntY8WkNYQ&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QKntY8WkNYQ&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

Dang, that's not working either.

[melvin walker]

But I do respect other's opinions - just not yours. And, it's "THEN," not "THAN" in the rest of your sentence..

I'm not the first one to criticize your poor spelling and grammar. Why is it you refuse to write properly? Even in your rebuttals to those who point out your errors, you continue to make still more. Why is that?

Insofar as my qualifications to "write history," I worked in this industry from 1962 until the early 2000's. From what I can tell, you read lots of audio magazines during that time frame. I'd say that puts us on two very different playing fields, no?

. You have an opinion that I respect . Your past employment is a plus.
What are your qualifications in English and phonics ? I will use the old metaphor , those who repair the Ferrari's don't own them and those who crush the grapes don't drink the wine.

Wine and car connoisseur don't work in the car and wine industries. I have found most men who wear and appreciates fine men's clothing are not tailors.
That is not to say that the audio history you have gained over the years working in the audio industry is not valuable.
But there is a counterpoint.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Man, this just ain't my day. :(

:mad: :mad5: :incazzato: :mad2: <=== Sticky Bobby!!!

[E-Stat]

I have been thinking about trying a Dynavector next which is closer to MC.
Not only closer, but all Dynas, regardless of output, are moving coils. I use a DV-20XH in one system.

Dynavector (http://www.dynavector.com/index.html)


No one has been able to tell me any good reason why MC is better to use over MM.
To these ears, the lower moving mass MCs provide better focus and transient response. That's not to say there aren't some very good MMs around. I use a Shure M97E in the other table.

rw

[E-Stat]

Probably not. When I Googled "transmission turntable," I get nothing.
That's because he meant "transcription" (as you indicated). :)

"What's all this bruhaha over endangered feces?"
Emily Litella

rw

[Mr Peabody]

That's right, now I remember, the Dynavector I was looking at was MC but high output so I didn't have to go in a switch my phono preamp around.

[markw]

It's too bad you didn't know that when you wer posting that one.


In the early days of radio , the radio engineers used disk for recording rather than tape.
The turntabes were rather large 16 inch tables ,with 16 inch arms. The term "by transcripton" was used to describe how the program was broadcast. The playback was done on 16" transmission turntables using 16" tone arms.


The early turntables used the name transcription turntable although the tables was now 12 inches as a sign of quality and durability . Fairchild an outstanding turntable of the 50's and early 60's used the term" Farchild Transmission Turntable" , so did Empire , Rek-O-Kut and Thorens.
There was 16 inch arms and 16 inch tables for sale.Point us to any link on the Internet that refers to a "Transmission Turntable", besides one of your bogus posts here.

If not, that's just further proof that you're talking about things you can't comprehend and you're not man enough to admit it..

Well, surprise, surpise.

[emaidel]

.
What are your qualifications in English and phonics ? .

Other than having been a Speech Major in college, during which I took a number of courses in both grammar and phonetics (not, "phonics," which I doubt is the word you meant to use), I would say that anyone with a rudimenetary high school education, who managed to pass English over a period of 4 years would qualify as one to pick apart your poor spelling and grammar. You continually group two nouns together, and then use the singular part of the verb when referring to the two, which comes across sounding just plain dumb. "He and she were," not, "he and she was," is a perfect exmaple of something you continue to do over and over again.

One not need to have made a career out of grammar and phonetics to see that that's just plain wrong.

[melvin walker]

It's too bad you didn't know that when you wer posting that one.

Point us to any link on the Internet that refers to a "Transmission Turntable", besides one of your bogus posts here.

If not, that's just further proof that you're talking about things you can't comprehend and you're not man enough to admit it..

Well, surprise, surpise.
I was in error the word was transcription not transmission. Shut down your computer for a while and read some books. There are several publications covering the history of Audio !

Most young Americans know very little American history , political science ,and world history. Most young Americans are having problems locating different countries on a map.
Most Young American know little are nothing about the United States Constitution.

When I was on radio I carried the United States Constitution with me. Most callers didn't know the meaning of impeachment. Are could identify the third in line to the presidency.
I blame much of that on the computer. We simply don't read as many books as we did in the past. Instead if we want an answer we turn to a computer , fast answer , no in depth
information.

[melvin walker]

Other than having been a Speech Major in college, during which I took a number of courses in both grammar and phonetics (not, "phonics," which I doubt is the word you meant to use), I would say that anyone with a rudimenetary high school education, who managed to pass English over a period of 4 years would qualify as one to pick apart your poor spelling and grammar. You continually group two nouns together, and then use the singular part of the verb when referring to the two, which comes across sounding just plain dumb. "He and she were," not, "he and she was," is a perfect exmaple of something you continue to do over and over again.

One not need to have made a career out of grammar and phonetics to see that that's just plain wrong.
Maybe than you should have gotten a job teaching and learning manners.

[emaidel]

Maybe than you should have gotten a job teaching and learning manners.

That's, "maybe then you should have gotten a job teaching and learning manners."

In all fairness, I must say that I, and others here on AR may be being unfair to you. I volunteer my time to read books (textbooks primarily, but an occasional novel) for an organization called, "Recording for the Blind and Dyslexic." A person who is dyslexic isn't necessarily dumb, or stupid, but simply doesn't see printed material in the manner the rest of us do. So, your use of "are" for "or" may be because you are dyslexic. In that case, my apologies, If not, then for God's sake will you please try to write properly?

[SlumpBuster]

I was in error the word was transcription not transmission. Shut down your computer for a while and read some books. There are several publications covering the history of Audio !

Most young Americans know very little American history , political science ,and world history. Most young Americans are having problems locating different countries on a map.
Most Young American know little are nothing about the United States Constitution.

When I was on radio I carried the United States Constitution with me. Most callers didn't know the meaning of impeachment. Are could identify the third in line to the presidency.
I blame much of that on the computer. We simply don't read as many books as we did in the past. Instead if we want an answer we turn to a computer , fast answer , no in depth
information.

Fine, you made a mistake and confused the words. But, what makes you a pompous windbag is that you tried to correct the error by continuing in your mistaken position by coming up with some bogus distinction between transcription and transmission.

See, as a young American with a Honors degree in History, I am able to recall words correctly, such as transcription.

You know, there are quite few Ph.Ds, MDs, MBAs and JDs surfing around this site. Half to the members that you have so flippantly dismissed have advanced degrees. Of the four degrees I just listed, guess which one I have... go on, I'll give you four guesses. That way you'll be sure to get it right, eventually.

But, remember, even with all my fancy book learnin', I'm not above drinking High Life, wearing Carhartt, watching NASCAR, and using loose language, such as "douchebag."

[markw]

I was in error the word was transcription not transmission. Shut down your computer for a while and read some books. There are several publications covering the history of Audio !Kudos to finally owning up to this. Negative kudos for trying to alibi your way out of it by bluffing in a previous post.

My knowledge of audio history isn't an issue here. Yours is. You might want to brush up on audio history as well before posting erronous "facts"


Most young Americans know very little American history , political science ,and world history. Most young Americans are having problems locating different countries on a map. Most Young American know little are nothing about the United States Constitution.Well, post that on a site where it'll do some good. Burt remember, there'sa lot more history for them to learn than when you were in school.


When I was on radio I carried the United States Constitution with me. Most callers didn't know the meaning of impeachment. Are could identify the third in line to the presidencySo, we're now dealing with Melvin walker, the radio pundit.

Since you now bring up your radio career as a badge of your authority. What name did you use on the radio, and when and from where was it broadcast?

This might serve to bolster your cerdibility here, which is sort of on the wane.

I
blame much of that on the computer. We simply don't read as many books as we did in the past. Instead if we want an answer we turn to a computer , fast answer , no in depth information.As you've so aptly proven, but it can be a useful tool if implemented properly.

[SlumpBuster]

Oh, and second in line is Speaker of the House third is president of the Senate.. knowing that doesn't make you smart or well read.

[Groundbeef]

When I was on radio I carried the United States Constitution with me.

Well that makes sense. Was it the same copy that George Washington gave you when you were in your twenties? Or did you later donate that one to the historical society, and just carry around the pocket version?

BTW I can only imagine how captivating your radio show must have been. Sorta like Rush Limbaugh, only more angry, less articulate, and even shorter on facts.

Now, please excuse me. I have to get back to reading. Got a midterm coming up this afternoon in my Saturday MBA class.

[pixelthis]

I was in error the word was transcription not transmission. Shut down your computer for a while and read some books. There are several publications covering the history of Audio !

Most young Americans know very little American history , political science ,and world history. Most young Americans are having problems locating different countries on a map.
Most Young American know little are nothing about the United States Constitution.

When I was on radio I carried the United States Constitution with me. Most callers didn't know the meaning of impeachment. Are could identify the third in line to the presidency.
I blame much of that on the computer. We simply don't read as many books as we did in the past. Instead if we want an answer we turn to a computer , fast answer , no in depth
information.

Dont even try to talk sense with this markw character.
I think the "w " stands for whackjob.
And its not the computer that makes a lot of modern Americans spoiled brats, like our good markw here, they werent taught any manners growing up, is all:1:

[pixelthis]

And I KNOW THAT ITS NOT WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT, I have heard about transcription turntables, but most have a mechanism for changing the speed, so technically almost all turntables have transmissons:1:

[markw]

First. pixie talking about manners. that's like a priest talking about being married.

Next. he tries to justify the use of ""transmission" in reference to a turntable thereby assuring his title of one of the densest participants on this forum.

Pixie circles.. he bends, and, yes. he plants a kiss firmly on mel's butt! Get a room, you two.

But, all in all, a match made in heaven.

heh heh heh...

[emaidel]

I think the "w " stands for whackjob.



And this, coming from you?

[Rich-n-Texas]

First. pixie talking about manners. that's like a priest talking about being married.

Next. he tries to justify the use of ""transmission" in reference to a turntable thereby assuring his title of one of the densest participants on this forum.

Pixie circles.. he bends, and, yes. he plants a kiss firmly on mel's butt! Get a room, you two.

But, all in all, a match made in heaven.

heh heh heh...


And this, coming from you?
Ironic ain't it.

[markw]

Ironic ain't it.Particularly when one considers he posted this in the HT forums in response to one of my posts about 1/12 hours before he made his presence known here.


I dont HAVE to deal with a friggin idiot like you, just ignore you in the future , which I fully intend to.As previously mentioned, a man is only as good as his word.

And, also from that same post...


And stay away from me, I DONT CARE FOR THE SMELL:1:

Yeah, right. Yet he follows me here, instantly becoming a stalker, something he was crying about PVS doing to him.

heh.. heh... heh...

"Somehow, Frank, I don't think you really come here for the hunting"

[bobsticks]

... during which I took a number of courses in both grammar and phonetics (not, "phonics," which I doubt is the word you meant to use).


Actually, I believe that Hooked On Phonics could be a start in this case.

For the record emaidel, as a young person in this hobby I appreciate your anecdotes. I have a fondness for some vintage equipment derived from my Grandfather and the firsthand rememberances without judgement or lecturing are much welcome.

[Mr Peabody]

One thing worse than a dang manual turntable is one with a stick shift. My reverse went out on me now I can't listen to Beatles records backwards until I get my table into Aamco or Midas, some place. I just don't have the time to tare into another transmission right now.

[GMichael]

Learn to respect others opinion , than they will respect yours !

Please, take your own advice.

[Groundbeef]

Hey, Mr. Peabody, and Mr. Walker are both from St. Louis. Maybe Mr. Peabody could drive over to the home, and take Mr. Walker out for a nice lunch. Maybe that would cheer the old guy up.

Then they could hit the arch, grab a brew over at Budweiser, you know make an afternoon out of it.

[basite]

Hey, Mr. Peabody, and Mr. Walker are both from St. Louis. Maybe Mr. Peabody could drive over to the home, and take Mr. Walker out for a nice lunch. Maybe that would cheer the old guy up.

Then they could hit the arch, grab a brew over at Budweiser, you know make an afternoon out of it.


yeah!!

Mr. P could hear his system and tell us how terrific Melvin's system is...

I can only think of how much his system is in need of a total recap...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[melvin walker]

Well that makes sense. Was it the same copy that George Washington gave you when you were in your twenties? Or did you later donate that one to the historical society, and just carry around the pocket version?

BTW I can only imagine how captivating your radio show must have been. Sorta like Rush Limbaugh, only more angry, less articulate, and even shorter on facts.

Now, please excuse me. I have to get back to reading. Got a midterm coming up this afternoon in my Saturday MBA class.

You read !!! With that creepy audio system you have , I would have never guessed.
I enjoy Mr. Limbaugh , the most successful radio talk show host in the U.S.A. !
Never met old George , but it would have been my pleasure.

Very popular radio talk show. One of my many hobbies. It is people like you I enjoyed the most. MBA , good luck,

[Groundbeef]

You read !!! With that creepy audio system you have , I would have never guessed.
I enjoy Mr. Limbaugh , the most successful radio talk show host in the U.S.A. !
Never met old George , but it would have been my pleasure.

Very popular radio talk show. One of my many hobbies. It is people like you I enjoyed the most. MBA , good luck,

I don't belive that anyone has ever referred to my, or any other a/v setup as "creepy". I'll take it as a compliment, as it came from you.

Again, what was the name of your little radio program? And what were the call letters of the station. A man of your stature certainly wouldn't mind telling all of us about it.

I'm not really suprised you enjoy Mr. Limbaugh, the drug addled weasel that he is. Why exactly was he on that plane with 5 other guys and a suitcase of Viagra again?

So again, what exactly was your station?

[Mr Peabody]

I noticed several references to St.L but is this where Mel lives? I didn't notice him denying it. We've a few members in my area, Nobody, Msstl and I believe another but I forget his name. I met Msstl, nice guy to be sure. Nobody and I were at the same Rob Zombie show but we did not meet. I wouldn't mind at all checking out some of that vintage gear of Mr. Walker's. Maybe he will take me for a ride in his sports car.

[pixelthis]

Particularly when one considers he posted this in the HT forums in response to one of my posts about 1/12 hours before he made his presence known here.

As previously mentioned, a man is only as good as his word.

And, also from that same post...



Yeah, right. Yet he follows me here, instantly becoming a stalker, something he was crying about PVS doing to him.

heh.. heh... heh...

"Somehow, Frank, I don't think you really come here for the hunting"


Okay, you have managed to learn how to type basic words.
NOW take a stab at typing something coherent, something at the first grade level, we wouldn't want you to strain your little brain.
If a "man is as good as his word" you aren;t worth a peso:1:

[pixelthis]

One thing worse than a dang manual turntable is one with a stick shift. My reverse went out on me now I can't listen to Beatles records backwards until I get my table into Aamco or Midas, some place. I just don't have the time to tare into another transmission right now.

if you stopped listening to the Beatles backwards maybe you'd stop hearing those little voices in your head:1:

[emaidel]

[QUOTE=melvin walker]
I enjoy Mr. Limbaugh , the most successful radio talk show host in the U.S.A. !
QUOTE]

Though I don't particularly like, or agree with, Al Franken, his book's title says it all:

Rush Limbaugh is a big, fat idiot.

How anyone could admit to "enjoying" this fact-distorting, fat braggard is beyond me. Whatever credibiltiy (however small) you may have had before, Sir Melvin, is now lost forever.

[emaidel]

I've actually been able to recall another "dirty little secret," which was what this thread was originally about.

While at BSR, when they owned the ADC and dbx brands, I became the National Sales Manager for ADC cartridges. Unfortunately, BSR had opted to discontinue the U.S. manufacturing of the ADC cartridge, forever abandoning the "XLM," and "QLM" designs. The result was to purchase Japanese-made (by PIezo, of Japan - a large cartridge manufacturer) P-mount models, and two "high-end" units.

The P-mounts were the PSX-10, 20, 30 and 40, and all were pretty awful. The "high-end" models were two "Zero Resonance" models: the TRX-1, and the TRX-2. No one ever explained what was meant by "Zero Resonance," but there was no doubt that both models were pretty lousy. BSR techs ran QC tests on the TRX models, and every unit tested flunked, and flunked badly. The frequency resonse curves were anything but flat, and channel separation all but ceased to exist at anything above 10,000HZ.

One of the company's salespeople, without checking the product first, sent a TRX-2 to "High Fidelity" magazine, which actually printed a rather poor review of it. After all of this, BSR's contact in Japan arranged to have a "new and improved" model made: the TRX-3.

Actually, the TRX-3 was a tremendous improvement over the other two, but the manufacturing was inconsistent. The original sample sent to us sounded great, and tested wonderfullly, but as we had no reason to trust the manufacturer, we informed them that we wanted at least 3 more samples to check out, and based on their tested results, we would then release the pending order for 100 units.

To no one's surprise, the 100 units arrived before the 3 test samples. Then, when the samples arrived, all three tested magnificently. Again, to no one's surprise, those tested from the 100 stock units flunked. When I addressed the Japanese from Piezo at a Consumer Electronics show to ask why they shipped the order before the samples, all I got back was quizzical looks, and "don't understand" statements from them.

Just as with my experience with Japanese businessmen at Onkyo, I learned simply not to trust them as far as I could throw them.

The company went through a myriad of upper-management changes thereafter, and the TRX-3 was simply dropped. I had a working sample I recently gave to my son in law, who absolutely loved it, but then my grandson, as most 3-year olds are wont to do, broke the stylus. And so, my TRX-3 "died" as well.

[Mr Peabody]

My first real turntable was a BSR and I use "real" loosely. All the BSR's I've seen have been entry level at best. But being a teenager mine was a cheap purchase and seemed to play my Ted Nugent albums just fine then :) My system then was a Realistic receiver and some off brand 12" 3-ways. A far cry from what that little weasel Basite has in his youth. I'm not a hater though, good for him. I wonder if he has heard Ted?

I hope you know Basite I'm just messing with you.

[kelsci]

Hi Emaidel; I remember using a XLM ADC cartridge only. Delivered nice sound. The stylus was very rigid so it kept down wow and flutter better than most. I had a friend who had a record that had 4 bands of "torture" or skip so because of the ADCs damping, it could not go thru the third band of torture as say a Shure M91ED, but the Shure passed more wow and flutter.

[E-Stat]

I remember using a XLM ADC cartridge only...The stylus was very rigid so...
Actually the reverse is true. The XLM was at the highest end of cantilever compliance - a measure of the relative stiffness of the cantilever where the higher the number, the less stiffness it exhibits. The spec for the XLM and its brethren were in the range of 50 x 10 -6 cm/dyne. The workhouse M91ED was stiffer and had a correspondingly lower number (~30). The *problem* with the XLM was that it required an ultra low mass arm for it to work optimally. The arms found on most combo players were really not ideal with those ultra high compliance models and tracking suffered. The Shure, on the other hand, worked well with a wider range of arms.

I ran my Sonus Blue (a later Peter Pritchard design) with what was arguably the best arm for the job - a Transcriptors Vestigal. That sucker was of exceedingly low mass. It was basically a pivoted headshell where the arm moved only in the lateral plane. It could track the Telarc 1812 without jumping out of the groove.

rw

[bobsticks]

Well, so much for Rick and the ESS crew. Pretty cool diggin' up ye ol' Melvin thread though. I didn't know he lived in St. Louis...I was just there. I'd have stopped by the sanitorium and said "whattup".

[Auricauricle]

Just finished readin' through the thread....Man, I need a beer! How 'bout you, Stick Man?

[Worf101]

Really interesting stories, Emaidel. I use to go to the Lafayette store in Jamaica,Queens in the late 50s and 60s. It was a mad house on a Saturday. Pretty busy during the week too. A tremendous inventory of all kinds of electronics too boot. I thought that the reason they might have gone out of business was the way they tried to spread them selves around the country which seemed haphazard in camparison to Radio Shack.with just too many "associate stores" rather than real live branch stores.

I grew up in Jamaica Queens. From my window in "The 40 Projects" (named for P.S. 40) I could see the red neon Lafayette Sign some blocks away. Lafayettes catallouge along with J.C. Whitney's were the high points of the year for me. I miss the place terribly. Wondered what happened to them... had they stayed around long enough they might have ridden the PC catalog boom into the next century... Sad.

Da Worfster

[bobsticks]

Just finished readin' through the thread....Man, I need a beer! How 'bout you, Stick Man?


Well, it's a little early in the morning...and there's about a foot and a half of snow with more to come...so why not? You buyin' ?

Actually, I felt this thread had some of my finer moments from a jackassery perspective.

[Feanor]

Well, it's a little early in the morning...and there's about a foot and a half of snow with more to come...so why not? You buyin' ?

Actually, I felt this thread had some of my finer moments from a jackassery perspective.

And people think government is incompotent. :rolleyes:

[Auricauricle]

The jackassery was certainly rampant, LOL! Geeze, shame that "melvin" isn't around anymore. Lawsamussy!

Geeze, Worfster, that's an old stompin' gound of my own. Usta live out in (Not so) Great Neck at one time. One o' my best friends is a perfesser at St. Johns! Small, small world...

Yeah, feanor: You mean Neocompetent, don't you?

[bobsticks]

And people think government is incompotent. :rolleyes:

Yeah, because I was serious.

[Deadeye]

I have owned my Accuphase T101 tuner since 1983. It has been in for repair once. It has otherwise performed superbly. Here in Phila when WRTI used to go off the air it would routinely pick up a station broadcasting from Washington DC that also broadcasted at 90.1. It sounds better than just about everything I've ever heard with the exception of Marantz 10B's, Sequerra's and the like.

[Deadeye]

As for as Consumers Reports is concerned , what publication or source offers better informed test than Consumers Reports ? It has no advertising.
There were many test reports of a singe audio component , the consumer compared the reports , this helped the consumer in making an informed decision. There was test reports made by over a dozen magazines , some European.

I agree it is better to check with one's ears. But very seldom can one check most of the audio gear that is sold. Where would you go ? How long will it last ? Magazines while not perfect is a great help.

I remember seeing your website several years ago , but it has changed. There are some members yourself included who try very hard to inform others of the history of audio.
There are others ,it appears many who couldn't care less.
Keep trying , Rome wasn't built in one day.

Consumers Report tested a Porsche 911 years ago and gave it a bad review because it couldn't hold enough grocery bags in the trunk.
If I'm buying a washing machine I'll check Consumers Review. Anything of any kind of enthusiast's nature is not served well by Consumers Report. Checking their audio equipment reviews will support what I'm saying.

[GMichael]

Consumers Report tested a Porsche 911 years ago and gave it a bad review because it couldn't hold enough grocery bags in the trunk.
If I'm buying a washing machine I'll check Consumers Review. Anything of any kind of enthusiast's nature is not served well by Consumers Report. Checking their audio equipment reviews will support what I'm saying.

I agree, Bose comes out on top in CR. But you may want to check the date on Melvin's post. Doubt he'll see your response.