What other hobbies or interests do you have?

[blackraven]

I thought I would start a thread to find out what other interests or hobbies other people have.

Besides sex, alcohol and rock and roll, :6: I am a saltwater fish hobbiest with a coral reef tank and a large fish only tank. I also like to boat and water ski. And did I mention sex.
I like to fish, play sports-basketball, raquetball, cycling and lift weights. I also enjoy ethnic foods and fine dining as well as travel and watching sports. And did I mention sex!:cornut:

[PDN]

1. Jogging/working out on my elliptical cross-trainer. Drink lots of water.
2. Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 player (love it).
3. Bass guitar playing along with audio system.
4. Insprirational reading/Bible study.
5. Watching and discussing NFL teams and games with our 14 year old son.

[blackraven]

I used to be heavily into a computer game called Mechwarrior. I was part of a big on line clan of over 300 members worldwide. I got into it when I had a fusion on my Cervical spine and was off work for 10weeks.

And I hope nobody takes offense of the sex comments, I was just having some fun!

[Rich-n-Texas]

And I hope nobody takes offense of the sex comments, I was just having some fun!
Certainly not! I don't remember how it works, but I'm not offended. :)

Hobbies: Home Theater and PC gaming, when I'm not home theatering.
Interests: Sleeping, having regular bowel movements, wishing I was having regular sex, remembering to take all my pills, eating and surfing the net at work! :thumbsup:

[SlumpBuster]

And did I mention sex!:cornut:

Miss Chesty, the Doctor will see you now.


I was going to cite my crippling addictions to bum wine and internet porn, but you said besides sex and drugs... so...

Games. As Raven knows, I was big into mechwarrior too, but have since moved on to FEAR, HalfLife and Calll of Duty. But I still dream of the next Mechwarrior release.

Next would be all things "garage." From just changing oil and doing unnecesary (don't tell the wife) brake jobs, to wood working to gardening. If you can do it in, or stage it from a garage, I'm there. (My garage just might also have a fridge full of beers, too) I had to get rid of my 4x4 when we had our son, since it was also my daily driver. But my wife has since totally bought into the idea of an old Wrangler to go with my new minivan. So, I have that too look forward too.

Finally, guns. Specifically, muzzleloading black powder. The only thing better than a day on the range, is a day on the range with a beginner. People come to guns with all kinds of hang ups, that is until they hit the black at fifty yards with open iron sights. Thats when the hobby sells itself. "I did that!?!" "Yes, you did." Mmmm, the smell of sulfer on a Saturday morning.

[blackraven]

My 16 yo son and I are going to buy some shotguns and take up skeet shooting and this spring.

I also like to work in the garage and use all my power tools.

[diggity]

hey ho people. besides home theater my other hobbies mainly outdoor activities. my first love was athletics, specifically 200metre, 400 meter, and 800mtere. at about age 15 i decided that i wanted to push my body that little bit more so i competed in my first half marathon and 2 years later full marathon.

then i got bored with this after about 5 years and decided i wanted to climb mountains as this was more adrenelin pumping. i am currently planning my "seven summit" push. for those of you who don't know what this is it is the highest mountain of each continent.

i too do love sex. especially when the girlfriend is away on business:devil:

cheers: dazza

[Florian]

I read many books and play on my Apple :)

[JohnMichael]

Travel photography, art collecting and mechanical watches are interests of mine. When I am visiting a new city or revisiting an old one I like to buy a painting, signed print or engraving from a local artist as a souvenir of the area.

I also enjoy wine and fine foods.

[emaidel]

I'm an avid power-walker, and love to hike, especially in quiet forests. Other than that, shooting Scientologists is fun too...

[Ajani]

Playing squash, swimming, reading and keeping an aquarium (though I haven't owned one in awhile... I'll probably get back into that eventually)...

[Slippers On]

Motorbikes..

been a keen biker all my life but the UK weather sucked so I became a 'fair weather biker' until I moved to Spain. Now I'm a 'real' biker again. Present bike Suzuki GSX 1400 naked bike. I don't believe they are permitted in USA.


Slippers On

[enrique]

My real love is my HD fatboy.Can ride it all the time when ever i want as long as i want without any complaints and provides great sound effects.

[melvin walker]

Travel , I hope to visit India this summer , cars , I have my eye on a used XKR Jaguar appears like it might be fun , watches , politics , working with the Republican party in hopes of electing a Republican President for 2008 , clothing , always looking to add to my
clothing stock , interior decorating , art , collecting classic movies , exercising , weights
etc , spent some time as a radio talk show host as a hobby and a record collector.
At one time an excellent chess player.

I have always been of the opinion the more hobbies one has the more intresting they are.
With different hobbies one meets different people.
Example My travel hobby allowed me to cross the Sahara from Algeria to Senegal in a Landover with a group, unforgettable. Met some very interesting people on that trip.
As talk show host I spoke with many different people on various subjects , Black politics being the most popular. Wrote an editorial in a local newspaper for a short period.
Interesting now retired I am less active , less money. But many memories.

[blackraven]

What talk show did you host Melvin? Sounds like you've had an interesting life!

[PAOGORMAN2001]

My other hobby is Kite flying . From the small ones up to the 20ft across or 150 ft long .I also fly the two line sport kites I have about 40 assorted kites as of now. Three weeks ago I picked up a "Nitro RC Car Jato 3.3 As soon as the weather warms up here in Ct I'll be trying out that car I fly the kites year round. I'm 56 and doing some things that I loved as a kid ,or maybe I still am that kid? Oh and I still find time to spend time with my beautiful wife and my Greyhound "Keelin"

My Gear
NAD C162 PREAMP
NAD C272 POWER AMP
NAD C521BEE CDP
BOSTON ACOUSTICS PV 700 POWERED SUB
B&W 805S SPEAKERS

[blackraven]

Hey paogorman, we are ruled by an Italian GreyHound and a Giant schnauzer. The little Greyhound rules the roost.
My son has just gotten us into flying RC airplanes.

[O'Shag]

Certainly not! I don't remember how it works, but I'm not offended. :)

Hobbies: Home Theater and PC gaming, when I'm not home theatering.
Interests: Sleeping, having regular bowel movements, wishing I was having regular sex, remembering to take all my pills, eating and surfing the net at work! :thumbsup:

Hahahaha!! To funny Rich.

Good on Ya PDN. I was really surprised when I learned that one of my company's clients, a very high-powered and industry-known executive , plays guitar in his church every Sunday. He will never put that off for anything else; I gained a new respect for him.

Don't get too much time to enjoy some of the things I love doing. Blackraven, I enjoy the gym too. I work out at the Golds Gym in Venice, CA.

I really enjoy hanging out with my 23year old son - but he's too busy for me most of the time as he's going to med school and running his business.

Like to get down to the Pub on Friday afternoon. I've got my bird now :ihih: , so fanny-hunts are forbidden territory. :(

I play soccer and cricket with some friends. I 'try' an play basketball with my son and his friends, but he runs rings around me. I watch NFL football any time its on (Thurs, Sun, Mon) and the premiership soccer live every Saturday morning at 4:30am. I'm already in withdrawal because the regular NFL season is over.

Love to go to live gigs in smaller venues. One of my locals; Schatzis (Gov. Schwartenegger's place) in Santa Monica, has a live Jazz band every Tuesday night. They also have a cigar night once a month and Ahnold has joined us several times to enjoy the smelly weed). Finn McCools has a very talented Caelidh band (traditional Irish music) every Wednesday and I'll go there sometimes.

I love fishing also. Been out on the fishing boat several times, and sometimes will go down to the North Jetty in Marina Del Rey at 11pm to fish with a bunch of lads (only during the Spring/Summer).

Love Ice Hockey - and go to the King's games every so often.

Love hanging out with family and friends. And as is pretty obvious I love fiddling with my electronics / AV system , listening to music or watching a good movie.

[O'Shag]

Greyhounds are wonderful dogs. I used to have an Irish Wolfhound; Saxon. I miss him dearly.

[Feanor]

Nowadays my only real hobby is broadening my experience and understanding of classical music. This I do mainly by acquiring recordings (on CD or SACD). I also read the occassional reference work on the subject. I would like to go to more live concerts they but are limited in my area, and a bit pricey too, so since my wife doesn't want to go, I can't justify the cost.

Of course, visiting this and a couple of other forums is a bona fide hobby I'd say.

I've had various hobbies over the years, but most have gone by the wayside mostly because I'm getting old, weary, and poorer. I guess I'll be looking for another interest or two because I'll finally be retiring at 65. But I won't be doing the traveling that more successful (or luck) retirees often do because we are poor (if not quite destitute). Mostly I'll be sitting waiting to die.

[melvin walker]

What talk show did you host Melvin? Sounds like you've had an interesting life!
The talk show was named " The Other Side " A view from A Black middle class Republican. Quite popular , political and economic views from the Black middle
and upper middle class perspectives .
A contrast , from the usual Black intercity perspective. Because of the popular of the show , I appeared on several panels at local universities and spoke at a number of inter-city high schools.

My various hobbies enabled me, especially travel to better understand the issues , from a broader perspective, my history background was also helpful.

[melvin walker]

Nowadays my only real hobby is broadening my experience and understanding of classical music. This I so mainly by acquiring recordings (on CD or SACD). I also read the occassional reference work on the subject. I would like to go to more live concerts they but are limited in my area, and a bit pricey so, since my wife doesn't want to go, I can't justify the cost.

Of course, visiting this and a couple of other forums is a bona fide hobby I'd say.

I've had various hobbies over the years, but most have gone by the wayside mostly because I'm getting old, weary, and poorer. I guess I'll be looking for another interest or two because I'll finally be retiring at 65. But I won't be doing the traveling that more successful (or luck) retirees often do because we are poor (if not quite destitute). Mostly I'll be sitting waiting to die.

I would suggest that if you are in good health exercise , walking , riding a stationary bike ,
lifting weights. Get politically involved, how about passing on your acquired knowledge
to younger people. We all get older and unless wealthy, poorer.
I retired 5 years ago , stay involved. On this website I have had a wonderful time with the give and take involving younger members.

I wonder with some of the post , the world appears to be going to hell in a handbag , but we all learn something and it is informative. One of my other interest is listening to your BBC.
I have been listening to the BBC for 40 years. There are many other hobbies you might try.
The most stimulating effect is have an affair , nothing causes an older man to have a bounce in his walk as an affair with a younger women.
Better stop. The wolves are gathering.

[basite]

my other hobbies:

reading and posting on the forums of course. But I also enjoy travelling, eating good food (at home, it's always fresh cooked, and if we go out to a restaurant, it's always a good restaurant, I've never eaten in a fast food restaurant, and never will.).
Watching movies is fun too.
Another hobby is clothing, I spend quite some time picking clothes, I think clothes are a way of expressing yourself.
and going out with friends of course :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[PAOGORMAN2001]

O'Shag
Those Irish Wolfhounds are the biggest dogs I've ever seen but are gentile giants.
My Greyhound is a sweetie that's for sure

Pete O"Gorman

[SlumpBuster]

Black intercity perspective.
inter-city high schools.



Intercity? Wow. Must have been a very literate program.

[audio amateur]

I tend to spend a lot of time doing nothing. I think I was born for that. Or wasn't meant to be born. One of the two.
I love dogs, I own a golden lab/retriever. He's the nicest dog i've ever come accross. Sadly I only see him when I am at home on holiday.
I've been a big fan of the final fantasy series, the playstation ones especially.

I'm a regular at church and God is a part of my life so i guess that's a hobby.
Other than that taking my dog for walks on my bike (I like nice bikes aswell), enjoying the picturesque scenery nearby my home. Taking pictures of the Mt. Blanc whenever it shows.
Other than chilling with my best mates back home. And last but not least cars...

[Feanor]

I would suggest that if you are in good health exercise , walking , riding a stationary bike, lifting weights. Get politically involved, how about passing on your acquired knowledge to younger people. We all get older and unless wealthy, poorer.
I retired 5 years ago , stay involved. On this website I have had a wonderful time with the give and take involving younger members.

I wonder with some of the post , the world appears to be going to hell in a handbag , but we all learn something and it is informative. One of my other interest is listening to your BBC. I have been listening to the BBC for 40 years. There are many other hobbies you might try.
The most stimulating effect is have an affair, nothing causes an older man to have a bounce in his walk as an affair with a younger women. Better stop. The wolves are gathering.


Good advice, mostly. I do get regular exercise and no doubt I'm in a lot better shape for it -- but I'll need more if I'm going to make it with younger women. Actually, I suspect I'd need more money too, but not much chance of that.

Interestingly I too listen to the BBC on a regular basis. But note that the BBC is British, not Canadian; the latter's public broadcaster being the CBC which I listen to a lot. I also listen to CNN with great regularity, (but never FOX News :mad: ). I have a layman's interest in politics (including American federal), history, and science (especially astophysics, environment, archeology, engineering).

[blackraven]

Feanor, you just need some Viagra to make it with younger women!:18:

[jrhymeammo]

I've never taken Pfeizer Rizer, but have taken Cialas. I noticed no change in my system.

I hope this helps.

JRA

[Feanor]

I've never taken Pfeizer Rizer, but have taken Cialas. I noticed no change in my system.

I hope this helps.

JRA

I'll file that info somewhere.:20:

[blackraven]

You have to be able to get it up for the drugs to work. And there is no benefit in taking them if you do not have ED. It helps in peolpe who have diabetes,and high blood pressure. If there are psychological issue's the drugs do not help.
There's my medical advice for the day! Maybe I should start a medical advice column!

[johnny p]

hopes of electing a Republican President for 2008

I would love for this, and based on what I've seen of late, I don't think the Democrats are even going to put up a fight!!!


So... My Hobbies,

I enjoy off-roading, Wine as well as beer, there are a lot of different beers out there, and I love to sample!

I enjoy going out to eat, and I love to travel. As un-manly as it may be, I like to shop. I believe you have to look good to be successful, but my shopping extends beyond clothes.

I'm an avid golfer, I enjoy wakeboarding/boating. I don't really fish, but once year or every other year, I love to go deep-sea fishing, or Marlin Fishing etc.

[melvin walker]

Good advice, mostly. I do get regular exercise and no doubt I'm in a lot better shape for it -- but I'll need more if I'm going to make it with younger women. Actually, I suspect I'd need more money too, but not much chance of that.

Interestingly I too listen to the BBC on a regular basis. But note that the BBC is British, not Canadian; the latter's public broadcaster being the CBC which I listen to a lot. I also listen to CNN with great regularity, (but never FOX News :mad: ). I have a layman's interest in politics (including American federal), history, and science (especially astophysics, environment, archeology, engineering).
I to listen to the CBC an excellent international broadcast network. I injoy " FOX "
You do need money , but your varied interest is a plus. As for as younger women , you may find older women more mature and may have shared interest..

You will note that most of the replies are sexual , women are more than sexual , that is why many are bored with younger men. many are simply to immature.
My exposure to Canadians is they are generally better informed than most Americans.
Canadians test scores are superior to Americans.

Most Canadians are well informed when it comes to Canadian history not so with Americans. Few Americans can discuss the American civil War are have an awareness of the United States Constitution. So it is easy to understand why there is so little knowledge of the history of audio. You will also notice that many members feel threaten
when there is a reference to the history of audio. American history is no different.

Hang in there , you appear to be a very interesting man. With a variety of interest.
I know it is difficult but you can find others that share your interest.

[Rich-n-Texas]

...fanny-hunts are forbidden territory. :(
Okay so, if I go up to a gal in a bar and say "Hi, I'm going on a fanny-hunt, would you like join me", will it help my cause? :idea:

[melvin walker]

Feanor, you just need some Viagra to make it with younger women!:18:

Many young women have brains. Many young women prefer older men because younger men are of the opinion that sex gets it done. the facts are that today more women are graduating from college and universities than men ! Viagra does not benefit the mind.
After sex what does most young American men discuss ? car crashes , football and beer ? Most young American men don't even bother to vote !

Older men generally has more money , more experience and they generally know how to treat a women. As for as money , no man with money will ever be without a beautiful women.
Look around you and you will never generally see an older man driving a S600 Mercedes
alone unless he choose to. Note so with Honda and Pontiac drivers (smile )

[Rich-n-Texas]

Many young women have brains. Many young women prefer older men because younger men are of the opinion that sex gets it done. the facts are that today more women are graduating from college and universities than men ! Viagra does not benefit the mind.
After sex what does most young American men discuss ? car crashes , football and beer ? Most young American men don't even bother to vote !

Older men generally has more money , more experience and they generally know how to treat a women. As for as money , no man with money will ever be without a beautiful women.
Look around you and you will never generally see an older man driving a S600 Mercedes
alone unless he choose to. Note so with Honda and Pontiac drivers (smile )
Well, I would suspect that if the wolves weren't gathering before, they probably are now.

[Feanor]

Re. Hoping for a Repulican President in 2008 ...


I would love for this, and based on what I've seen of late, I don't think the Democrats are even going to put up a fight!!!

...

Granted the Democrates seem to shoot themselves in the foot time and again. I'm a Canadian so I can't see things quite the way Americans do, but it is perplexing to me that so many "ordinary" Americans support the Republican Party and candidates. It seems to me that the Republican agenda setters care only for the extremely rich, not the poor certainly, but also not the middle class.

However what the Republicans are good at is flogging spurious issues to the middle class. By spurious issues I mean those that have nothing to do things that are really important issues or are downright fraudulent, e.g.

Low taxes are the answer; (now what was the question?)
Small government is good
Private enterprise is the only way to get things do right
Business lobbiests are advocating for the good of the country
Abortion is bad
Gay marriage is bad
The human effect on the environment is unproven
Doing anything about the environment would impose a crushing burden on the economy
Doing anything to fundamentally improve health care for all isn't feasible
The Canadian health care model is socialist
Your heath care, (as a wealthy healthy person), will be compromised by universal health care
War is good because we must crush our enemies
Deficit spending is disagreable but necessary to support wars
Illegal immigration is disagreable but necessary because American won't do those jobs (for a low enough wage)
"Macjobs" are suitable replacement for manufacturing jobs
The U.S.A. is the greatest (in fact the only great) country in the world
The U.S. economy is doing just fine
The poor are less deserving than the rich.

[GMichael]

Many young women have brains. Many young women prefer older men because younger men are of the opinion that sex gets it done. the facts are that today more women are graduating from college and universities than men ! Viagra does not benefit the mind.
After sex what does most young American men discuss ? car crashes , football and beer ? Most young American men don't even bother to vote !

Older men generally has more money , more experience and they generally know how to treat a women. As for as money , no man with money will ever be without a beautiful women.
Look around you and you will never generally see an older man driving a S600 Mercedes
alone unless he choose to. Note so with Honda and Pontiac drivers (smile )

I don't seem to have too much trouble driving my Acura. Alone is a thing I have to work at finding.
As far as other hobbies? I still play billiards even though it's no longer in competition. I've been there and done that for many years and have done about all I could do. Now my eyes are not what they once were, so I only play for fun, or to instruct younger upstarts. For years I was into motorcycles of all kinds. Settled down to just Harley's the last 20 years or so. Now I have none. Girls were a big hobby for me until I got married in 2001. Keeping the wife happy has become a fun hobby. She's the best!
HT is still rather new to me (only in it for about 5 years) so it takes most of my time. With the addition of the PS3 (which I bought for BR movies) I have found that gaming is much more fun than I would have every thought. I've been having more fun than ever. Spent almost 5 hours yesterday playing a demo.

Oh, and there's nothing wrong with a little sports either. Today's women are into sports more than ever. My wife goes crazy watching a game.

GO GIANTS!

[audio amateur]

Re. Hoping for a Repulican President in 2008 ...



Granted the Democrates seem to shoot themselves in the foot time and again. I'm a Canadian so I can't see things quite the way Americans do, but it is perplexing to me that so many "ordinary" Americans support the Republican Party and candidates. It seems to me that the Republican agenda setters care only for the extremely rich, not the poor certainly, but also not the middle class.

However what the Republicans are good at is flogging spurious issues to the middle class. By spurious issues I mean those that have nothing to do things that are really important issues or are downright fraudulent, e.g.

Low taxes are the answer; (now what was the question?)
Small government is good
Private enterprise is the only way to get things do right
Business lobbiests are advocating for the good of the country
Abortion is bad
Gay marriage is bad
The human effect on the environment is unproven
Doing anything about the environment would impose a crushing burden on the economy
Doing anything to fundamentally improve health care for all isn't feasible
The Canadian health care model is socialist
Your heath care, (as a wealthy healthy person), will be compromised by universal health care
War is good because we must crush our enemies
Deficit spending is disagreable but necessary to support wars
Illegal immigration is disagreable but necessary because American won't do those jobs (for a low enough wage)
"Macjobs" are suitable replacement for manufacturing jobs
The U.S.A. is the greatest (in fact the only great) country in the world
The U.S. economy is doing just fine
The poor are less deserving than the rich.

Don't you think you're categorizing a little there?

[basite]

Don't you think you're categorizing a little there?


yes, but IMO, that's basically what the republicans are doing too...

face it, Bush only cares about the rich, and how to make them (and himself, in the first place)richer. The poor and middle class don't even bother him.

[melvin walker]

Re. Hoping for a Repulican President in 2008 ...



Granted the Democrates seem to shoot themselves in the foot time and again. I'm a Canadian so I can't see things quite the way Americans do, but it is perplexing to me that so many "ordinary" Americans support the Republican Party and candidates. It seems to me that the Republican agenda setters care only for the extremely rich, not the poor certainly, but also not the middle class.

However what the Republicans are good at is flogging spurious issues to the middle class. By spurious issues I mean those that have nothing to do things that are really important issues or are downright fraudulent, e.g.

Low taxes are the answer; (now what was the question?)
Small government is good
Private enterprise is the only way to get things do right
Abortion is bad
Gay marriage is bad
The human effect on the environment is unproven
Doing anything about the environment would impose a crushing burden on the economy
Doing anything to fundamentally improve health care for all isn't feasible
The Canadian health care model is socialist
War is good because we must crush our enemies
Illegal immigration is disagreeable but necessary because American won't do those jobs
"Macjobs" are suitable replacement for manufacturing jobs
The U.S.A. is the greatest (in fact the only great) country in the world
The poor are less deserving than the rich.

America is the wealthiest and has the most powerful military in the history of the world.
America has protected the Canadians from foreign intervention and made the hemisphere safe for all to prosper.
War protects American and Canadian interest. it allows the Canadians to spend less on defense and more on social programs , because the United States protect Canada.
In America we believe in individual responsibility , not collective. The poor in America has the opportunity for improvement. America spends more on public education than any nation in the world.

History has proven that the more citizens are involved in government and the smaller
government is the more government works for the people. Examples The Soviet Union , Sweden , France , Italy , and even Great Britain and Germany. All put together has a GNP one third of America.
America has the largest middle class in the world ! What would you replace private enterprise with? socialism , Many countries in western Europe are cutting back on social programs , to costly. Germany , France , Great Britain and even Sweden are examples

In America we went to war over higher taxes. The lower taxes are the more money consumers have to spend for . Audio , video , cars , homes , recreation , clothing , etc,.etc,
Business have more money to invest when taxes are lower. Why is it that countries such as Japan , China , and many European countries invest in America ? low taxes .They are not investing their monies in Canada.
I hope I covered some of your points. Point and Counterpoint.

[melvin walker]

I don't seem to have too much trouble driving my Acura. Alone is a thing I have to work at finding.
As far as other hobbies? I still play billiards even though it's no longer in competition. I've been there and done that for many years and have done about all I could do. Now my eyes are not what they once were, so I only play for fun, or to instruct younger upstarts. For years I was into motorcycles of all kinds. Settled down to just Harley's the last 20 years or so. Now I have none. Girls were a big hobby for me until I got married in 2001. Keeping the wife happy has become a fun hobby. She's the best!
HT is still rather new to me (only in it for about 5 years) so it takes most of my time. With the addition of the PS3 (which I bought for BR movies) I have found that gaming is much more fun than I would have every thought. I've been having more fun than ever. Spent almost 5 hours yesterday playing a demo.

Oh, and there's nothing wrong with a little sports either. Today's women are into sports more than ever. My wife goes crazy watching a ga


GO GIANTS!
Car and Driver wrote " It is not that people dislike S Series Mercedes , it is the people who drive them ."
It is not fair to compare an Accra with a S series Mercedes. An upward mobile women would more likely wish to be seen in a Mercedes than anything Japanese. The European
car is seen as more chic. Where do you think the car valets parks the Accra's ?

Accra would one say receivers , S series Mercedes high end separates. The Thomas Crown Affair was on television recently , what kind of car did Steve McQueen drive ?
Even Wall street the car was a stretched Lincoln limousine. Never a Japanese car.
Hartley Motorcycle , never wrong image , Italian are German.
Sports , tennis or golf. Anything less is considered , well not upward mobile.

Accra is an excellent car. Reliable , gets good gas mileage , low maintenance and good performance. Would you want to take your best client to lunch in an Accra ?
In America image is everything.
A simple counterpoint, not personal.

[Groundbeef]

Hey, back to "hobbies" as the OP asked.

1. I like to brew my own beer when I have time. Its not too expensive, and pretty fun. Shameless plug for the place I buy supplies:

http://www.mrbeer.com/

The nice thing about Mr. Beer is that is relatively inexpensive (about $25) to get set up, and then purchasing the beer mix is a no brainer. Takes about 2 weeks from mixing to drinking. If you ever want to expand, and do some other brewing, you can make much more, but setup costs are higher.

2. If I ever finish school (May 08!) and finish the basement, I would love to get my RC car back out.

3. In the spring/summer/fall I enjoy taking my 3 ladies out fishing. They have really come around, and even hook their own bait.

4. My pond is my biggest "hobby". I have 13 fish, 2 frogs, and tons of birds that stop by for a drink. It's my 3rd year, and I really enjoy it. I re-dug the pond last spring after the terrible "fish kill" of 07, and expanded it to about 975 gallons. That is about double the size from the year before.

[GMichael]

Car and Driver wrote " It is not that people dislike S Series Mercedes , it is the people who drive them ."
It is not fair to compare an Accra with a S series Mercedes. An upward mobile women would more likely wish to be seen in a Mercedes than anything Japanese. The European
car is seen as more chic. Where do you think the car valets parks the Accra's ?

I don't dislike Mercedes or the people who drive them. I don't rememeber trying to compare them. Only that I do fine with my glorified Honda. upwardly mobil women do not concern me. Only down to Earth normal women who aren't looking to "sell their souls to the devil to get ahead", are.



Accra would one say receivers , S series Mercedes high end separates. The Thomas Crown Affair was on television recently , what kind of car did Steve McQueen drive ?
Even Wall street the car was a stretched Lincoln limousine. Never a Japanese car.
Hartley Motorcycle , never wrong image , Italian are German.

It's a different world now. Cars from Japan are among the best in many ways. Image isn't everything to most of us. And the Harley's image has done a 180. More upwardly mobile "prepie" types drive Harleys now than ever before. Times are changing.


Sports , tennis or golf. Anything less is considered , well not upward mobile.

I can't base my choices in life on what others think is upwardly mobile. I can see how it can be a major concern to others, but it's just not for me. I'm more concerend with how I see myself and how my family sees me. Those are my priorities.
I do like both tennis and golf though.



Accra is an excellent car. Reliable , gets good gas mileage , low maintenance and good performance. Would you want to take your best client to lunch in an Accra ?
In America image is everything.
A simple counterpoint, not personal.

My Acura is actually very nice. Yeah, I'd be proud to take anyone to lunch in it. Sit back, enjoy the climate contols and heated leather seats. My auto-starts makes sure the inside is a nice 71 degrees when I step in no mater what time of year it is.

[basite]

America is the wealthiest and has the most powerful military in the history of the world.

now you're comparing apples and oranges. America is an entire continent. compare America to the European Union, and you'll find we're richer.

and having a powerful military doesn't make you a 'good' country.


America has protected the Canadians from foreign intervention and made the hemisphere safe for all to prosper.
[quote]War protects American and Canadian interest. it allows the Canadians to spend less on defense and more on social programs , because the United States protect Canada.

you're almost saying war is good.
here's what war does: it makes countries poor, makes many people hate and kill eachother, destroys entire cultures & eventually both parties lose.

the war in Iraq is a good example: Bush said 'he' was going to 'free the country'. actually, he went there for the oil, he doesn't care about the people there, in fact, he wants them to keep hating eachother, so he could keep the story going on a little longer. And that's exactly why 9/11 happened too. Osama's family was into oil, so was Bush's family, they were friends, now they hate eachother, just because of oil. btw, on 9/11 they first waited for all the rich oil sheiks to fly home in their jets before they closed down the airports.


In America we believe in individual responsibility , not collective. The poor in America has the opportunity for improvement. America spends more on public education than any nation in the world.

and even so, our education system (and overall education) here in Europe is proven to be far better. school in the USA is almost like a private company, they are sponsored, which causes influences, which means schools are biased: not a good thing.
same with social cary system.
and the USA's health care system sucks, and it's only there for the rich.


History has proven that the more citizens are involved in government and the smaller
government is the more government works for the people. Examples The Soviet Union , Sweden , France , Italy , and even Great Britain and Germany. All put together has a GNP one third of America.


um, the soviet union? that's longtime history...

and I think the government should indeed work for the people, why else do we need them? But I think they should work for everyone, not just the rich.


other remarks I have on the united states:
their media, america's media makes the people afraid of anything, which is also the reason why your oh so glorious country has the most 'murders' every year.

not that everything in America is bad though...

So much for my counterpoints.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[daviethek]

I've had various hobbies over the years, but most have gone by the wayside mostly because I'm getting old, weary, and poorer. I guess I'll be looking for another interest or two because I'll finally be retiring at 65. But I won't be doing the traveling that more successful (or luck) retirees often do because we are poor (if not quite destitute). Mostly I'll be sitting waiting to die.[/QUOTE]


thanks for sharing Feanor.

Anyway, I like fly fishing and oil painting. I occasionally turn out something that looks remotely like art so thats enough inspiration to continue. I can't imagine retiring to a place where I wouldn't be able to fish.

[Feanor]

America is the wealthiest and has the most powerful military in the history of the world.
America has protected the Canadians from foreign intervention and made the hemisphere safe for all to prosper.
War protects American and Canadian interest. it allows the Canadians to spend less on defense and more on social programs , because the United States protect Canada.
In America we believe in individual responsibility , not collective. The poor in America has the opportunity for improvement. America spends more on public education than any nation in the world.

History has proven that the more citizens are involved in government and the smaller
government is the more government works for the people. Examples The Soviet Union , Sweden , France , Italy , and even Great Britain and Germany. All put together has a GNP one third of America.
America has the largest middle class in the world ! What would you replace private enterprise with? socialism , Many countries in western Europe are cutting back on social programs , to costly. Germany , France , Great Britain and even Sweden are examples

In America we went to war over higher taxes. The lower taxes are the more money consumers have to spend for . Audio , video , cars , homes , recreation , clothing , etc,.etc,
Business have more money to invest when taxes are lower. Why is it that countries such as Japan , China , and many European countries invest in America ? low taxes .They are not investing their monies in Canada.
I hope I covered some of your points. Point and Counterpoint.

You respond with the usual platitutes, Melvin. Half-truths at best.

Canada has never caused the world with the thread, resentment, or envy that the US has, accordingly it has less need of defence, and hasn't been threatened by foreign interventions.
As a proportion of income the US does not spend more per captia on public education than any other country. If that were the case, it would still be true that the effectiveness of public eduction less in various areas than other countries as ranked by international agencies.
If the US has largest middle class in the world, it nevertheless still ranks well down the list of most desireable countries in which to live, whether ranked by public services, economic security, or personal happiness.
While in some instance European countries have cut back on social programs, they are still far, far ahead of the US.
While Americans (or some) might have more money to spend on audio, autos, and clothes, they often go without health insurance.
The Canadian ecomony has out-performed the US for the last several years, and the Canadian dollar has risen from US$0.66 to parity with the US dollar.

[emaidel]

I'm 63 ("old") and drive a Mercedes E-420, and often do so alone. Good Lord, whatever is going to become of me?

[Feanor]

Hey, back to "hobbies" as the OP asked.

....

... somebody mentioned "Republican". :mad: One of my hobbies is U.S. Republican-bashing.

[Groundbeef]

... somebody mentioned "Republican". :mad: One of my hobbies is U.S. Republican-bashing.

Thats ok. We have republicans. You unfortunatly have Quebec. Frankly, I'd rather deal with the republicans than some loony frech nutjob.

[audio amateur]

The Soviet Union , Sweden , France , Italy , and even Great Britain and Germany. All put together has a GNP one third of America.

I believe the soviet union ceased to exist about 20 years ago.. wake up buddy. It's now called Russia.
As for the GNP story, that's quite frankly stupid. GNP's of those countries add up to much more than a third of the US'. Please share your sources. I'm very curious

[GMichael]

Can we list poking fun at each other and starting trouble as a hobby?

[Groundbeef]

Can we list poking fun at each other and starting trouble as a hobby?

Sure. Just keep what ever you're using to do your "poking" away from me.

BTW did you like my pond?

[Rich-n-Texas]

I don't seem to have too much trouble driving my Acura. Alone is a thing I have to work at finding.
As far as other hobbies? I still play billiards even though it's no longer in competition. I've been there and done that for many years and have done about all I could do. Now my eyes are not what they once were, so I only play for fun, or to instruct younger upstarts. For years I was into motorcycles of all kinds. Settled down to just Harley's the last 20 years or so. Now I have none. Girls were a big hobby for me until I got married in 2001. Keeping the wife happy has become a fun hobby. She's the best!
HT is still rather new to me (only in it for about 5 years) so it takes most of my time. With the addition of the PS3 (which I bought for BR movies) I have found that gaming is much more fun than I would have every thought. I've been having more fun than ever. Spent almost 5 hours yesterday playing a demo.

Oh, and there's nothing wrong with a little sports either. Today's women are into sports more than ever. My wife goes crazy watching a game.

GO GIANTS!
I can't believe the Giants made it to the superbowl. :rolleyes:

[GMichael]

Sure. Just keep what ever you're using to do your "poking" away from me.

BTW did you like my pond?

Very nice. Is that a solar light? How does it work? We bought some a month ago. Ours don't give off much light.

[GMichael]

I can't believe the Giants made it to the superbowl. :rolleyes:

Me either. But now the pres that's been beating them up all season is picking them to win. That's like the kiss of death, since they're NEVER right.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I like your pond beefy. I'd attempt something like that in my backyard but I'd need a jackhammer and a lot of spades (for cutting that is) to get through the black clay we have down here. I even tried to dig out a 4' x 4' patch in the grass for a compost pile, but gave up after my arms fell off.

[Groundbeef]

Very nice. Is that a solar light? How does it work? We bought some a month ago. Ours don't give off much light.

Neither do mine. Actually my wife and I were more than a little disapointed with them. However, the garden shop we got them from has pretty draconian return policy.

However, they do at least look nice during the day.

Do you have a pond as well? Or just use the light for a garden?

[GMichael]

Neither do mine. Actually my wife and I were more than a little disapointed with them. However, the garden shop we got them from has pretty draconian return policy.

However, they do at least look nice during the day.

Do you have a pond as well? Or just use the light for a garden?

Sometimes.

Sometimes water builds up on the road in front of my mailbox. It's dark when I get home each night. The light was to help keep my feet dry.

[Groundbeef]

I like your pond beefy. I'd attempt something like that in my backyard but I'd need a jackhammer and a lot of spades (for cutting that is) to get through the black clay we have down here. I even tried to dig out a 4' x 4' patch in the grass for a compost pile, but gave up after my arms fell off.

Yeah, we have a TON of clay up here in IL, as well. I found that digging is easier after some rain. Perhaps if you water the area you want to dig out it may make it somewhat easier. In TX, you shouldn't have to go too deep.

About 24" would be ideal. Keep the critters (cats/racoons/cranes) from getting your fishes.

In IL, I had to go 32" for freezing issues. I leave the fish in all year, and it just wouldn't do to have them get frozen solid!

Its almost like AV. No matter what you do, you always feel the urge to go bigger, and better. More fish, features, etc. But I must say, it is very relaxing in the summer to sit out with the wife, have a drink, and watch the fish.

[melvin walker]

I believe the soviet union ceased to exist about 20 years ago.. wake up buddy. It's now called Russia.
As for the GNP story, that's quite frankly stupid. GNP's of those countries add up to much more than a third of the US'. Please share your sources. I'm very curious

We all know the Soviet Union does not exist . The point was that their socialist system did not work. Totalitarianism has proved to be a failure. Democratic socialism at this point in Western Europe is also having a hard time paying the bills.
The United States has a GNP of 14 trillion dollars. Japan and the European union combined is less that that.
If you disagree with my data where is yours.

[Groundbeef]

Sometimes.

Sometimes water builds up on the road in front of my mailbox. It's dark when I get home each night. The light was to help keep my feet dry.

I see. Perhaps better drainage would be your solution.

[Groundbeef]

We all know the Soviet Union does not exist . The point was that their socialist system did not work. Totalitarianism has proved to be a failure. Democratic socialism at this point in Western Europe is also having a hard time paying the bills.
The United States has a GNP of 14 trillion dollars. Japan and the European union combined is less that that.
If you disagree with my data where is yours.

Perhaps Melvin, if you would stick to the topic "What are your hobbies?" people wouldn't come out against you as much.

Unless of course one of your hobbies is being a clueless ass. In that case, carry on.

[melvin walker]

I'm 63 ("old") and drive a Mercedes E-420, and often do so alone. Good Lord, whatever is going to become of me?
Trade it in and buy a Mercedes S420. You might even try a S500 are S600 !
The E is not really top of the line Mercedes. Image is everything.

[melvin walker]

Perhaps Melvin, if you would stick to the topic "What are your hobbies?" people wouldn't come out against you as much.

Unless of course one of your hobbies is being a clueless ass. In that case, carry on.
I have already posted my hobbies !

[GMichael]

I see. Perhaps better drainage would be your solution.

I don't think the town would be happy about me digging up the road.

But our complaint has been noted. They have plans to "do something about it."

[audio amateur]

I have already posted my hobbies !

I hate sounding like a jerk to you, but then maybe you shouldn't go around commenting on others' posts so much, especially when you come out with things like Soviet Union & GNP (and all the other comments members here have tagged as crap). I don't see where the flaw is in 'Western European' democratic systems, anymore than the US'. We are not the only ones to have big debts. The US does to. And not just a bit

PS: I don't need to back my point on GNP, what you said is ludacrous. The countries you mentionned are far from having a low GNP;)

[Rich-n-Texas]

What happens when you wet the dirt (I tried that) is that it turns into paste that cakes all over your shovel. That's why my arms got so tired. A 5 lb shovel ends up weighing 10 pounds after the first couple of shots. Anymore I'm just happy that I've actually got a decent lawn. Thanks TrueGreen! :thumbsup:

Dammit it happened to me too GM.


Yeah, we have a TON of clay up here in IL, as well. I found that digging is easier after some rain. Perhaps if you water the area you want to dig out it may make it somewhat easier. In TX, you shouldn't have to go too deep

[topspeed]

Meanwhile, back on ranch On Topic...

Quell riots
Overthrow dictatorships
Apply justice where there is none
Comfort the huddled masses
Verify virgins

When I have time away from all that, I try to squeeze in time playing with my kids and working on whatever sport they are participating in at that point in the year.

I'd say I enjoy flyfishing, but that's like saying you enjoy an enema. It's very relaxing and once you've reached the goal it's incredibly rewarding, but that in-between part is a lot harder than it looks!

My trainer has a hobby of trying to make me puke at the gym, something he gleefully takes delight in...the bastard. Whoever created plyometrics really needs to die.

I was much better at tennis, volleyball, and skiing, if memory serves...which it usually doesn't.

The wife and I are both wine aficionados and relish in finding great bottles of 2 buck chuck. It's just too bad you have to go throw 10 bottles of malt vinegar to find that one that sets your hair on fire. Thank God for friends!

I'm a tremendous USC supporter, as are my kids...whether they want to be or not :devil: Go to the games, donate to the school, wear the colors, blahblahblah. I had the boys singing "Fight On!" before the age of 2. 'Nuff said...

Last, but certainly not least, I'm a gearhead of the first order. If audio is a hobby, cars are a passion. Contrary to popular belief, it's not about absolute speed. It's about snapping off that perfect double heel/toe downshift to set the car up to threshold brake. It's about the feel of the car as it rotates perfectly while you finish trail braking and slowly feed in throttle and the track unwinds before you. It's also about the curve of the front fender under your palm while you apply that third coat of gloss, all the while admiring the art and genius in a design that must balance beauty with engineering realities. Hand washing/waxing a car is like opening a dialogue with the designer and discovering the hopes and dreams behind it. Imagine discussing the Sistine Chapel with Michelangelo as each brush stroke created new depths of beauty.

Oh, yeah. I listen to my stereo every once in awhile too.

[johnny p]

It's amazing how many Anti-Bush, Republican bashers I see when I visit other countries. You might want to analyze the U.S. news sources you follow. The Communist News Network (CNN) and MSNBC are utter garbage. The mass media is anti-American, thus this is the reputation we get from people from other countries.

I forgot my other love.... someone mentioned billiards, but Foosball is the competition of kings!

[audio amateur]

Last, but certainly not least, I'm a gearhead of the first order. If audio is a hobby, cars are a passion. Contrary to popular belief, it's not about absolute speed. It's about snapping off that perfect double heel/toe downshift to set the car up to threshold brake. It's about the feel of the car as it rotates perfectly while you finish trail braking and slowly feed in throttle and the track unwinds before you. It's also about the curve of the front fender under your palm while you apply that third coat of gloss, all the while admiring the art and genius in a design that must balance beauty with engineering realities. Hand washing/waxing a car is like opening a dialogue with the designer and discovering the hopes and dreams behind it. Imagine discussing the Sistine Chapel with Michelangelo as each brush stroke created new realities.

Topspeed... I hate you.

[johnny p]

Last, but certainly not least, I'm a gearhead of the first order. If audio is a hobby, cars are a passion. Contrary to popular belief, it's not about absolute speed. It's about snapping off that perfect double heel/toe downshift to set the car up to threshold brake. It's about the feel of the car as it rotates perfectly while you finish trail braking and slowly feed in throttle and the track unwinds before you. It's also about the curve of the front fender under your palm while you apply that third coat of gloss, all the while admiring the art and genius in a design that must balance beauty with engineering realities. Hand washing/waxing a car is like opening a dialogue with the designer and discovering the hopes and dreams behind it. Imagine discussing the Sistine Chapel with Michelangelo as each brush stroke created new realities.

Oh, yeah. I listen to my stereo every once in awhile too.

My brother waited diligently on the "list" and got his 2005 Lotus Elise (awhile ago) and it's FUN FUN FUN to drive.... obviously not a Straight-Line, High-End car, but when asked to turn/corner, not much in its price range can touch it.

[blackraven]

Hey Groundbeef. I really like your pond. Being a saltwater fish hobbiest I would love to have an outdoor pond but unfortunatley I live in Minnesota and the winter cold kills everything here except the evergreen tree's. I think ponds are really cool. I have a friend here who keeps a pond about 5 times ths size of yours. He moves all his fish into the basement for the winter. Thats too much work for me. Do you keep any Japenese Koi?

Oh and one comment about the american health care system. There is free care to every one in the US. I'm an Emergency Medicine physician and any one can come into any emergency department and get free health care. We collect about 30% of what we bill. No one can be turned away for not being able to pay. Most ER's are flooded by people without insurance. And those people get excellent care for the most part. Also, there are plenty of free clinics. Here in the Twin cities we have a list of at least Ten free clinics. Also many clinics are willing to see no pay patients but may reqiure a good faith payment of $10. Most indigent people dont want to pay for this. They would rather pay $25 per week for cigarettes or alcohol. I could go on and on. Also, now Target and Walmart pharmacy's have a list of the about 100 medicines that cost $4 a prescription.

The emergency dept. is the Governments fall back. Thats one of the reasons that there has been no change in the present day healthcare system. The government knows that people can go to the ER for healthcare. They don't care that hospitals have to keep raising prices for paying customers to cover the costs of no pay patients!

And don't get me started about the Canadian Health care system. Its good if your really sick but if you need anything elective plan to wait weeks to months and if your geriatric and need open heart sugery,for get about it. We have some Canadian Dr's in our group, so I'm very familiar with the Canadian system. One of our canadian Dr's Father died from the treatment of a heart attack because they used a clot busting drug which caaused a massive cerebral hemorrhage instead of taking him to a cardiac catheterization lab and ballooning and stenting his artery. His was too old to get the clot busting drug but they gave it to him anyway to save costs and because he was too old and didn't have many more years to live. The risk of intracerebral hemmorhage goes up when you get into your late 70's and above.
One of the problems with giving universal health care in the US, is that we will all be paying at minimum, 50% income tax to pay for it. This is a multi TRILLION dollar problem that the government has no answer for. Also, under this system, health care will be rationed and people in this country will not go for that.

[Groundbeef]

What happens when you wet the dirt (I tried that) is that it turns into paste that cakes all over your shovel. That's why my arms got so tired. A 5 lb shovel ends up weighing 10 pounds after the first couple of shots. Anymore I'm just happy that I've actually got a decent lawn. Thanks TrueGreen! :thumbsup:

Dammit it happened to me too GM.

Well, you can't really wet it while your working. Do it a day ahead. Really let it "trickle" into the soil. Its ok if you soak it, but then a lot runs off. The goal is to moisten the dirt.

And small shovel fulls are better than trying to do it all at once. It took me about 7 hours of digging to get what I needed.

I tried TrueGreen, but got better results with Scotts (DIY). Then I let the lawn go to hell this year. We got zero rain, and it was hotter than hell. I didn't want to pay the water bill for watering. So I didn't. At least the fish lived.

[Groundbeef]

Hey Groundbeef. I really like your pond. Being a saltwater fish hobbiest I would love to have an outdoor pond but unfortunatley I live in Minnesota and the winter cold kills everything here except the evergreen tree's. I think ponds are really cool. I have a friend here who keeps a pond about 5 times ths size of yours. He moves all his fish into the basement for the winter. Thats too much work for me. Do you keep any Japenese Koi?



Well, it really depends upon how much work you want to put into it. As you own saltwater fish, I can see you are a glutton for work! In MN you would need a pond about 40" deep. If you make it about 12' by 8', that would be a great size.

Koi, and common goldfish do quite well in the winter, and at that depth there is no concern of the water freezing solid. You may get 1-1.5' of ice, but not solid. Fish will be fine till spring.

I have wintered some fish (in fact I have 1 alge eater in the basement now), but I think it's too much work. I'd rather they all stay outside.

[melvin walker]

You respond with the usual platitutes, Melvin. Half-truths at best.

Canada has never caused the world with the thread, resentment, or envy that the US has, accordingly it has less need of defence, and hasn't been threatened by foreign interventions.
As a proportion of income the US does not spend more per captia on public education than any other country. If that were the case, it would still be true that the effectiveness of public eduction less in various areas than other countries as ranked by international agencies.
If the US has largest middle class in the world, it nevertheless still ranks well down the list of most desireable countries in which to live, whether ranked by public services, economic security, or personal happiness.
While in some instance European countries have cut back on social programs, they are still far, far ahead of the US.
While Americans (or some) might have more money to spend on audio, autos, and clothes, they often go without health insurance.
The Canadian ecomony has out-performed the US for the last several years, and the Canadian dollar has risen from US$0.66 to parity with the US dollar.

My last point on this issue , it is after all about hobbies.
In the 18th and 19th century it was the British navy that protected the United States and Canada from foreign powers. The 20th century we have seen the United States take over that role. Canada has thrived under The United States protective umbrella.
No foreign power would dare threaten Canada because of the United States presence.

European countries also are allowed to spend less on defense because of United States
military protection. Remember the "Marshall plan "
I wonder if Canada could have defended itself against German and Japanese aggression without the United States in World War Two ? , or the Soviet Union doing the "Cold War "
Now the free world is faced with a new menace from the middle east and who is it that is spending it's treasury and blood to safe guard western Europe and Canada ? The United States of America !

To keep the rest of the world safe for trade and commerce there has to be a super power, That job is never appreciated. How much do you think a barrel of oil would cost without the United States involvement ?
The United States GNP is 14 trillion dollars what is Canada's

Finally the United States educational system does trail other industrial countries. I must add that the United States is a multi-racial , ethnic , and religious nation.
What is the percentage of minorities in Canada , Germany , France , Japan etc.
When a nation is trying to educate peoples of different religions , race , and ethnic background as the United States is trying to do and offer them freedom at the same time it is almost a impossible task. This nation is trying.

Having visited and worked in Canada , it's a wonderful country with friendly people.
Every night a Canadian goes to bed , he or she should say " Thank god for the "good old U.S.A. "
A very interesting discussion , I have enjoyed your perspectives.

[GMichael]

I think I feel sick.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Meanwhile, back on ranch On Topic...

Quell riots
Overthrow dictatorships
Apply justice where there is none
Comfort the huddled masses
Verify virgins
I want his job!!!


Last, but certainly not least, I'm a gearhead of the first order. If audio is a hobby, cars are a passion. Contrary to popular belief, it's not about absolute speed. It's about snapping off that perfect double heel/toe downshift to set the car up to threshold brake. It's about the feel of the car as it rotates perfectly while you finish trail braking and slowly feed in throttle and the track unwinds before you. It's also about the curve of the front fender under your palm while you apply that third coat of gloss, all the while admiring the art and genius in a design that must balance beauty with engineering realities. Hand washing/waxing a car is like opening a dialogue with the designer and discovering the hopes and dreams behind it. Imagine discussing the Sistine Chapel with Michelangelo as each brush stroke created new depths of beauty.
Oh cripes! A roadracer. Just when I was starting to like you. :rolleyes: And brother you sure know how to lay it on thick don't ya?

No, it's all about speed. The adrenalin rush from 0 to +100 mph in a stock street car in the 1/4 is orgasmic. I loved the time I spent at Texas Motorplex on Friday nights and during club events kickin' mustang tail. And we in my Camaro Firebird Car club ate rice with so much ease. The burnouts when a lot of fun too!


Oh, yeah. I listen to my stereo every once in awhile too.
Gave up on the video games I see. :biggrin5:

BTW Speedy. Did you know I live 3 minutes from LG Motorsports? :ihih:

[Feanor]

...

Having visited and worked in Canada , it's a wonderful country with friendly people.
Every night a Canadian goes to bed , he or she should say " Thank god for the "good old U.S.A. "
A very interesting discussion , I have enjoyed your perspectives.

In fact most Canadians would not want to be beside any nation in preference to the U.S.A. Canadians and the people of most other nations look to the U.S. for leadership and good example. In fact only a few crazies such as Al-Qaeda and Taliban members harbor any profound well-will towards America.

In fact it is the good will we feel towards the U.S.A. that is the source of our concern that Americans liberalized their own society in their own interest and as an even more excellent example to the world.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Melvin you are just laughable.

[Ajani]

My last point on this issue , it is after all about hobbies.
In the 18th and 19th century it was the British navy that protected the United States and Canada from foreign powers. The 20th century we have seen the United States take over that role. Canada has thrived under The United States protective umbrella.
No foreign power would dare threaten Canada because of the United States presence..

Better question - Who would want to threaten Canada? The US needs to have a strong military because it has made many enemies....


European countries also are allowed to spend less on defense because of United States
military protection. Remember the "Marshall plan "
I wonder if Canada could have defended itself against German and Japanese aggression without the United States in World War Two ? , or the Soviet Union doing the "Cold War "
Now the free world is faced with a new menace from the middle east and who is it that is spending it's treasury and blood to safe guard western Europe and Canada ? The United States of America !.

Who created the menace in the middle east by supplying weapons and training to these terorists during the cold war?

Ask yourself this question - if the US and Russia never had their cold war, would the middle east be as volatile as it is now?



To keep the rest of the world safe for trade and commerce there has to be a super power, That job is never appreciated. How much do you think a barrel of oil would cost without the United States involvement ?
The United States GNP is 14 trillion dollars what is Canada's.

Stop being lazy... try google and you should be able to find Canada's GNP...



Finally the United States educational system does trail other industrial countries. I must add that the United States is a multi-racial , ethnic , and religious nation.
What is the percentage of minorities in Canada , Germany , France , Japan etc.
When a nation is trying to educate peoples of different religions , race , and ethnic background as the United States is trying to do and offer them freedom at the same time it is almost a impossible task. This nation is trying.

Having visited and worked in Canada , it's a wonderful country with friendly people.
Every night a Canadian goes to bed , he or she should say " Thank god for the "good old U.S.A. "
A very interesting discussion , I have enjoyed your perspectives.

You ask about the percentage of minorities in Canada... ok how about this.... you explain to me what is required to gain US citizenship and I'll explain what's required to get Canadian...

Canada has far more immigrant friendly policies... It's not to hard to figure out whether you'd qualify for Permanent Residence (and eventually citizenship)... and it's relatively easy to get that....

I've never heard anyone praise the US' attitude towards immigation...

Oh and for the record: I'm not anti-US.... but the US is not the only country in the world (despite what some Americans think)....

[basite]

It's amazing how many Anti-Bush, Republican bashers I see when I visit other countries. You might want to analyze the U.S. news sources you follow. The Communist News Network (CNN) and MSNBC are utter garbage. The mass media is anti-American, thus this is the reputation we get from people from other countries.

I forgot my other love.... someone mentioned billiards, but Foosball is the competition of kings!


I study human science, in one of the courses, we learn about media and media techniques/tactics,... we've seen, analyzed and discussed many forms of media, also TV, and we discussed FOX there too...
I can see why you think CNN is garbage, but then again, FOX is even worse.

but anyways, no more about politics.

back to hobbies.

I actually forgot one: I like Ice skating alot. I can do it pretty good too, never played icehockey or so, but I just learned iceskating from myself and watching others.

Anyone else here that likes Ice skating too?

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Ajani]

Hey, back to "hobbies" as the OP asked.

1. I like to brew my own beer when I have time. Its not too expensive, and pretty fun. Shameless plug for the place I buy supplies:

http://www.mrbeer.com/

The nice thing about Mr. Beer is that is relatively inexpensive (about $25) to get set up, and then purchasing the beer mix is a no brainer. Takes about 2 weeks from mixing to drinking. If you ever want to expand, and do some other brewing, you can make much more, but setup costs are higher.

2. If I ever finish school (May 08!) and finish the basement, I would love to get my RC car back out.

3. In the spring/summer/fall I enjoy taking my 3 ladies out fishing. They have really come around, and even hook their own bait.

4. My pond is my biggest "hobby". I have 13 fish, 2 frogs, and tons of birds that stop by for a drink. It's my 3rd year, and I really enjoy it. I re-dug the pond last spring after the terrible "fish kill" of 07, and expanded it to about 975 gallons. That is about double the size from the year before.

Nice Pond btw.... I used to have a pond (not nearly as well finished as yours though... I really need to get back into that hobby...

[Rich-n-Texas]

How 'bout skiing Bert? Aren't there some great ski hills in Belgium?

[basite]

How 'bout skiing Bert? Aren't there some great ski hills in Belgium?

in france there are, or in Switzerland, or in Austria, or in northern Italy, but in Belgium? nah :cornut:

Belgium is pretty much flat for the biggest part. We do have some 'mountains' in the south, but I'd think I'd go to somewhere else if I wanted to ski :)

They ain't callin us (belgium and the netherlands) "the lowlands" for nuttin :cornut:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Okay. My last geography class was about thirty years ago. :o

[topspeed]

No, it's all about speed. The adrenalin rush from 0 to +100 mph in a stock street car in the 1/4 is orgasmic. I've got a SMG man, it ain't that hard! Engage Launch Control, drop the hammer, let go of the stick and flick the right paddle when the shift light comes on. A monkey can reel off high 12's. Road racing requires SOOOOO much more concentration and you have to keep that focus a helluva lot longer than 10-12 seconds at a time!


Gave up on the video games I see. Nah, I just haven't found the courage to try COD4 online and get shredded by some snot nosed kid. Ego's are a delicate thing, ya know?

[bfalls]

Other hobbies include collecting Coca Cola memorabilia. I have over 700 collector series glasses, trays, etc.. I collect CDs (800+), LDs (100) and DVDs (750+). I also perform ISF video calibrations and I'm a state certified EMT.

[Groundbeef]

Okay. My last geography class was about thirty years ago. :o

Huh, you musta gone to school with Melvin's grandson.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I've got a SMG man, it ain't that hard! Engage Launch Control, drop the hammer, let go of the stick and flick the right paddle when the shift light comes on. A monkey can reel off high 12's. Road racing requires SOOOOO much more concentration and you have to keep that focus a helluva lot longer than 10-12 seconds at a time!
Alright! decode the FnF and SMG Abbrev's wiseguy! I reeled off high 12's, but I had to feather the peddle 'cause the 3K stall torque converter and 3.73 gears made it hard to keep the MT E/T streets under me. No "monkey" is gonna do that!!!

Did I say stock? :o


Nah, I just haven't found the courage to try COD4 online and get shredded by some snot nosed kid.
I probably never will game online, even though Bert's trying to bring me out of my shell.

Ego's are a delicate thing, ya know?
Yeah they are. Hey I'm impressed with your online gamer lingo. Fragged huh? :thumbsup:

[audio amateur]

Huh, you musta gone to school with Melvin's grandson.
looooooooooooool

[audio amateur]

I believe SMG is the M3's transmission. It'a paddle-shift a.k.a touch-tronic (semi-automatic with gear leavers at the wheel). Not 'stick' as you americans would put it. It's a shame though manuals are a blast

[topspeed]

FnF=Fast n' Furious. You know, rice racing in street drags.

SMG=Sequential M Gearbox. It's a normal 6MT gearbox with a computer controlled electro-hydraulic clutch. It's not a slushbox as there is no torque converter. In full kill mode, it'll snap off shifts in .8 seconds, faster than any human can. The best part however, is the rev matched downshifts as you don't have to worry about money shifts and can concentrate on your braking point and line.

[melvin walker]

I want his job!!!


Oh cripes! A roadracer. Just when I was starting to like you. :rolleyes: And brother you sure know how to lay it on thick don't ya?

No, it's all about speed. The adrenalin rush from 0 to +100 mph in a stock street car in the 1/4 is orgasmic. I loved the time I spent at Texas Motorplex on Friday nights and during club events kickin' mustang tail. And we in my Camaro Firebird Car club ate rice with so much ease. The burnouts when a lot of fun too!


Gave up on the video games I see. :biggrin5:

BTW Speedy. Did you know I live 3 minutes from LG Motorsports? :ihih:

Speed , how about 175 -205 miles per hour and they can corner.
James Bond in Saint-Tropez . We are speaking of Ason Martin. Are a Bentley Continental
Floats like a butterfly , drives like a dream. 0-60 4.3 seconds top speed 202mph.
Like a bottle of 82 Lafleur , smooth and balanced, but full and grippy. Ferrari 599 , 0-60
3.7 seconds top speed 205mph.It stopped so fast I thought the trunk opened. But it was the air brake. Mercedes Benz SLR Mclaren Roadster, top speed 206mph 0-60 3.8 seconds.

There are high end audio equipment that cost almost as much as these cars $ 100,000 +
These audio systems are for the audiophiles of today. preamps $50,000 amps $75,000.
speakers $100,000.
it was not unusual for an audiophile to pay $7000.00 for an audio system in the day when a Daytona Ferrari cost $18,000 and a 911 Porsche cost $8,000.
No different today.

[O'Shag]

Hi Pete O',

My lad was gentle when stroked, fierce when provoked. I remember late one night I took him down as was customary for a walk along the bike path at the beach. It was fairly dark, and as he wasn't on a lead he wandered down to the beach. I walked along the path, and noticed approaching quite rapidly were three large guys with somewhat of an air of menace about them. I prepared myself for any 'eventualities' grabbing the keys in my pocket and making a fist. Out from the dark popped Saxon, all 175lbs of him. Dags know when there is danger, and Saxon was the gentlest soul (wonderful with children and the elderly) but proud and powerful as they come. An Irish Wolfhound 'disturbed' is something to behold. He began walking deliberately in a tense fashion (like a lion I kid you not) towards the approaching threesome, and an 18hz growl began eminating from his massive muzzle (the wolfhounds head and neck is huge). In about a milisecond the threesome turned and ran. Saxon was 36" at the shoulder which is about average for a Wolfhound but I've seen much bigger. They're the largest member of the greyhound family, and whilst the slowest, they'll leave most any other type of dog in the dust with their double-suspension sprint i.e. incredibly fast for their size. I've seen some Scottish Deerhounds that were phenomenally fast.

Saxon and I used to go down to a 'puppy play group' where owners would bring their dogs. There was among them a Greyhound rescued from the track, a large greyhound appropriately named Bullet. For those of you that have never seen a greyhound in full flight it is mindblowing. He would toy with other dogs, Bullet, in just four strides, was ancient history, none of the other dogs could even keep up with his dust. Ah, my dear Saxon, how I miss him...

[O'Shag]

Bill B.,

If you have a local pub up there, you might consider joining the darts team. Its a bit of fun and some exercise. Melvin is right about the exercise.

By the way Melvin, hope your enjoying those wonederful Hartsfields. The price is skyrocketing on them.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Huh, you musta gone to school with Melvin's grandson.
Naaa, the other kids were constantly beating him up. I stayed away.

[topspeed]

There are high end audio equipment that cost almost as much as these cars $ 100,000 +
These audio systems are for the audiophiles of today. preamps $50,000 amps $75,000.
speakers $100,000.
it was not unusual for an audiophile to pay $7000.00 for an audio system in the day when a Daytona Ferrari cost $18,000 and a 911 Porsche cost $8,000.
No different today Ugh. As much as I hate to admit it, you're actually right on this count.

The good news is just like a $5000 Nuforce 9se will give owners of $60,000 Burmester 911's serious pause, a $69,000 Nissan GT-R will lap the Nordschleife faster than a $123,000 Porsche 997tt or the mighty $1.6m Bugatti Veyron. Very soon, the ZR-1 Corvette...yes, a red-white-and-blue-mom-baseball-and-apple-pie-Vette, will knock every Euro blueblood on its pompous ass.

Performance vs. pedigree: You can pay for what's on the hood or what's under it.

I'll take what's under it.




To O'shag,

I've got my German shepherd/Irish Wolfhound laying behind me as I type this. Great dog, deceptively fast (as you noted) and very obedient...now. Before 3 yrs, she was nightmare and had more energy than a 1kW amp at clip. Thankfully, she grew out of it and is much more manageable now. As you know, when dogs of this size get a full head of steam, you really don't want to be standing in the middle of the tracks. Her name is Kublai.

[Rich-n-Texas]

HEY! If I want paddle shifters I'll get a Mitsubishi Lancer. So there! :dita:

[Rich-n-Texas]

TS, have I told you I've had my car dyno'ed on the same machine Lou Gigliotti tunes his race cars on?

[Feanor]

...
One of the problems with giving universal health care in the US, is that we will all be paying at minimum, 50% income tax to pay for it. This is a multi TRILLION dollar problem that the government has no answer for. Also, under this system, health care will be rationed and people in this country will not go for that.

Reports of health rationing and waiting lists in Canada are hugely exaggerated by critics in the US, most of them with a vested interest in the current American system.

My story about Canadian medical care has a much different flavor from yours. I had a triple coronary bypass two years ago. After diagnosis I waited a total of 5 months for surgery. This was not a problem in my case since I responded extremely well to medication and was not deem to be at risk; surgery was considered elective.

My consultation involved two highly regarded cardiologists and a surgeon who is considered a world-class expert in "robotic" surgery. My case was considered for "robotic" surgery, (much less invasive), and that's what was expect 'till I went into the hospital. However the surgeon decided he could not do a good enough job robotically and elected to do the good old sternectomy (did I get that right?). Nevertheless he was able to do it without using a heart-lung machine and without transfusing any blood. I sayed 5 days in the hospital, receiving more consultation and physiotherapy. I went to a cardiac rehabilitation program including diet and exercise counseling .Since the operation I have had annual check ups with my cardiologist (Holter monitor, ultrasonic readings of my heart and cardioid artery, plus stress tests), the first time less than 6 weeks after the operation, in each case with excellent results.

For all of the preceeding I was charged at total of a $800 surcharge for a semi-private hospital room plus my presciption drugs, (other than those I received in the hospital which were no charge); my employer's insurance plan paid these expenses. Had I been over 65 the prescriptions would have been paid by the Province of Ontario except for a $3.16 dispensing fee.

Please, since you're a doctor, tell me what is wrong with any of this? While you're at it, tell me why if the Canadian system is so flawed, no Canadian politician would have the chance of a fart in a wind storm if he advocated serious reductions in the public health system. Or why the Saskatchewan premier who introduced the first universal health care system in this country was recently voted the greatest Canadian of all time?

Please don't spread lies and half-truths about the Canadian medical system. Also, I regard that it is a LIE to say that the cost of medical services would increase in the US with a universal insurance system. Yes, it would cost governments much more, but the people less. For example, it is a fact that cost to hospitals and doctors in Canada to bill and receive payment is only 20% of what it is in the U.S. And yes, Doc, Canadian emergency rooms collect 100% of their billings.

[O'Shag]

Quote from Ajani......."You ask about the percentage of minorities in Canada... ok how about this.... you explain to me what is required to gain US citizenship and I'll explain what's required to get Canadian...

"Canada has far more immigrant friendly policies... It's not to hard to figure out whether you'd qualify for Permanent Residence (and eventually citizenship)... and it's relatively easy to get that....

I've never heard anyone praise the US' attitude towards immigation..."

Ajani, this is not statement against Canada's obviously excellent immagrant policies. But I think your above statement is incorrect. One thing that cannot be argued with, is that the USA has had and continues to have the most liberal immigration policies anywhere at anytime. More immigrants have landed on these shores to call it home than in any other country; period.

I think Melvin has a good point, but I also agree in a sense with what your saying. The USA is not the be-all and end-all, but there's no denying its important role as a world leading power, and how decisions made in this country have great effect in the world.

[Ajani]

Quote from Ajani......."You ask about the percentage of minorities in Canada... ok how about this.... you explain to me what is required to gain US citizenship and I'll explain what's required to get Canadian...

"Canada has far more immigrant friendly policies... It's not to hard to figure out whether you'd qualify for Permanent Residence (and eventually citizenship)... and it's relatively easy to get that....

I've never heard anyone praise the US' attitude towards immigation..."

Ajani, this is not statement against Canada's obviously excellent immagrant policies. But I think your above statement is incorrect. I am an American, having immigrated from Great Britain 20 odd years ago. One thing that cannot be argued with, is that the USA has had and continues to have the most liberal immigration policies anywhere at anytime. More immigrants have landed on these shores to call it home than in any other country; period.

Though I appreciate your point I must note a few things:

1) Immigration from another 1st world country such as the UK to America is not what I'd consider the best test of fair and transparent immigration policies... and while you had a fairly easy time, I'm not sure how many Mexicans and Jamaicans found the process to be quite so simple...

2) There is no denying the shear volume of immigrants in America, but that also has a lot to do with the overall size (land and population) of the country.... I would expect a country like Grand Cayman to have far less immigrants than the US... etc....

3) While the US has accepted many immigrants, there is still a lack of transparency and simplicity in the process... now compare that to Canada which operates on a simple point system (you can basically go online and determine whether you'd be likely to qualify for citizenship) and you see why I regard the US policies as not being immigrant friendly...


I think Melvin has a good point, but I also agree in a sense with what your saying. The USA is not the be-all and end-all, but there's no denying its important role as a world leading power, and how decisions made in this country have great effect in the world.

I'll agree that the US is EXTREMELY important in the world... it is a large superpower... but my real problem with Melvin's post is that it reflects the attitude that the US is doing the rest of the world a huge favour, and that everyone should be thankful to have the US around to save their butts... which is absurd.... The world would continue without the US, it wouldn't be the same (some things a lot worse) but it would continue...

[blackraven]

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the Canadian health care system and that the US system is great. I was just pointing out that there are problems with the canadain system as well. The canadian Dr in our group has all sorts of horror stories dealing with the canadian system and I have heard similar stories from other canadian physicians. There are just as many horror stories in the US system as well, Here in the states if you need to see a specialist on an emergency or semi emergency basis you will see him right away and your will get the latest technology. Here in the US every hospital has a CT scanner and just about every hosplital has an MRI scanner, this is not the case in canada. And if you needed open heart surgery it wpuld be done right away, no waiting. I always tell the story of the patient I had in the ER who broke his leg and needed an orthopedic surgeon. The Dr that was on call was a Canadian who used to practice in Canada. It took him 2hrs to see the patient at 10pm, The patient was pissed and made some comment that if we had the canadian system he would have gotten better care, The Canadain Dr told him if this was Canada, I wouldnt be seeing you till 10am the next day, be thankful your here in the US!
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the US system is better than the Canada's because its not. But in some respects it rivals Canada's in that every one here has access to state of the art medicine with out having to wait and with out rationing based on age or probability of survival (and I'm a proponent of this thinking, we can't save every one). And if you don't think that that goes on in Canada, then you need to wake up, because it does. And thats what will happen here in the US if universal health care goes through and the american peolpe will not like it.

Geez, this thread has gone way off course!

[Ajani]

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the Canadian health care system and that the US system is great. I was just pointing out that there are problems with the canadain system as well. The canadian Dr in our group has all sorts of horror stories dealing with the canadian system and I have heard similar stories from other canadian physicians. There are just as many horror stories in the US system as well, Here in the states if you need to see a specialist on an emergency or semi emergency basis you will see him right away and your will get the latest technology. Here in the US every hospital has a CT scanner and just about every hosplital has an MRI scanner, this is not the case in canada. And if you needed open heart surgery it wpuld be done right away, no waiting. I always tell the story of the patient I had in the ER who broke his leg and needed an orthopedic surgeon. The Dr that was on call was a Canadian who used to practice in Canada. It took him 2hrs to see the patient at 10pm, The patient was pissed and made some comment that if we had the canadian system he would have gotten better care, The Canadain Dr told him if this was Canada, I wouldnt be seeing you till 10am the next day, be thankful your here in the US!
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the US system is better than the Canada's because its not. But in some respects it rivals Canada's in that every one here has access to state of the art medicine with out having to wait and with out rationing based on age or probability of survival (and I'm a proponent of this thinking, we can't save every one). And if you don't think that that goes on in Canada, then you need to wake up, because it does. And thats what will happen here in the US if universal health care goes through and the american peolpe will not like it.

Geez, this thread has gone way off course!

Agreed... this thread really has gone way off course...

it's all Melvin's fault!!! we should hang him for his comments (ok that made be a bit much)...

Seriously though, I don't think this is really meant to be a bash Canada/bash the US thread... both are fantastic countries with great opportunity for people to have better lives...

What is happening is that some of us were not pleased by the way Melvin refered to the US as pretty much the centre of the known universe (not an exact quote - obviously, but essentially the spirit of things)... so we got a bit overzealous in our description of the flaws in the US system vs Canada...

The point is just that the US is not the end all be all of the world.... though it is a great country and has many accomplishments to be proud of...

[melvin walker]

Though I appreciate your point I must note a few things:

1) Immigration from another 1st world country such as the UK to America is not what I'd consider the best test of fair and transparent immigration policies... and while you had a fairly easy time, I'm not sure how many Mexicans and Jamaicans found the process to be quite so simple...

2) There is no denying the shear volume of immigrants in America, but that also has a lot to do with the overall size (land and population) of the country.... I would expect a country like Grand Cayman to have far less immigrants than the US... etc....

3) While the US has accepted many immigrants, there is still a lack of transparency and simplicity in the process... now compare that to Canada which operates on a simple point system (you can basically go online and determine whether you'd be likely to qualify for citizenship) and you see why I regard the US policies as not being immigrant friendly...



I'll agree that the US is EXTREMELY important in the world... it is a large superpower... but my real problem with Melvin's post is that it reflects the attitude that the US is doing the rest of the world a huge favour, and that everyone should be thankful to have the US around to save their butts... which is absurd.... The world would continue without the US, it wouldn't be the same (some things a lot worse) but it would continue...

You are correct without the U.S. the world would continue. What kind of world would we have. Europe is safer because of NATO , the backbone of NATO is the U.S. The United Nation plays a major role in what little peace we have , the United Nations would be unworkable without the U.S.
Trade and commerce would not be effective if it was not the presence of the U.S. navy , which protects the sea lanes.
The American dollar backed up by a strong GNP gives stability to other nations currences.

The U.S. does act in it's interest. The standard of living has been improving in the rest of the world thinks to international trade promoted and protected by the U.S.
The largest contributor to the U.N. is the U.S.A. The world would be a more dangerous place to live in without the U.N. National disasters and health issues in poorer countries has been aided by the U.N. financed mostly by the U.S.

The 19th and 20th century has seen the world progress at a rate 100 times greater than at any time in the world's history. Thanks to the stabilizing influences and military power of the British and the United States.
What would happen in the Middle East if the Arab militants were allowed to reintroduce
Muslim fundamentalism ? What would have been the results if NATO backed by the U.S.
had not intervened in the Baltics , where two world wars began.

Many people dislike a stern and powerful super power , Who else would you prefer as that super power ? China ? Russia ? Japan . Germany ? Great Britain ?
The United States is not a perfect nation , but over the last 200 years no nation has worked has hard as the U.S. to solve problems that many thought was unsolvable..

[markw]

Well, actually an acronym.

NATO

Something that's often overlooked in these discussions, particularly by those who have realized the most benefit it over the past 50+ years.

It's kinda like a umberlla. You know it never rains when you carry it, only when you leave it someplace else does it rain.

[melvin walker]

Reports of health rationing and waiting lists in Canada are hugely exaggerated by critics in the US, most of them with a vested interest in the current American system.

My story about Canadian medical care has a much different flavor from yours. I had a triple coronary bypass two years ago. After diagnosis I waited a total of 5 months for surgery. This was not a problem in my case since I responded extremely well to medication and was not deem to be at risk; surgery was considered elective.

My consultation involved two highly regarded cardiologists and a surgeon who is considered a world-class expert in "robotic" surgery. My case was considered for "robotic" surgery, (much less invasive), and that's what was expect 'till I went into the hospital. However the surgeon decided he could not do a good enough job robotically and elected to do the good old sternectomy (did I get that right?). Nevertheless he was able to do it without using a heart-lung machine and without transfusing any blood. I sayed 5 days in the hospital, receiving more consultation and physiotherapy. I went to a cardiac rehabilitation program including diet and exercise counseling .Since the operation I have had annual check ups with my cardiologist (Holter monitor, ultrasonic readings of my heart and cardioid artery, plus stress tests), the first time less than 6 weeks after the operation, in each case with excellent results.

For all of the preceeding I was charged at total of a $800 surcharge for a semi-private hospital room plus my presciption drugs, (other than those I received in the hospital which were no charge); my employer's insurance plan paid these expenses. Had I been over 65 the prescriptions would have been paid by the Province of Ontario except for a $3.16 dispensing fee.

Please, since you're a doctor, tell me what is wrong with any of this? While you're at it, tell me why if the Canadian system is so flawed, no Canadian politician would have the chance of a fart in a wind storm if he advocated serious reductions in the public health system. Or why the Saskatchewan premier who introduced the first universal health care system in this country was recently voted the greatest Canadian of all time?

Please don't spread lies and half-truths about the Canadian medical system. Also, I regard that it is a LIE to say that the cost of medical services would increase in the US with a universal insurance system. Yes, it would cost governments much more, but the people less. For example, it is a fact that cost to hospitals and doctors in Canada to bill and receive payment is only 20% of what it is in the U.S. And yes, Doc, Canadian emergency rooms collect 100% of their billings.

I will not try and compare health care in the U.S. and health care in Canada. The two systems has it's critics and supporters.
The question is are American citizens willing to pay the higher taxes for national health care ? If taxes are increased what would be the effect on American business as well as the individual tax payers ?

Western Europe has seen slow growth , high unemployment and tax avoidance because of high governmental taxes. ,. In America what would happen to our consumer based economy if the consumer has less to spend due to higher taxes.
How many Americans would have the extra money to spend on that new LCD ?,
newer surround sound system ?, , replace that 7 year old car ?, move into a larger home ?
update that aging computer ? etc. Would it mean a slower growth consumer market ,?, that usually spells recession !



The issue is higher taxes are lower taxes. Most Americans have health care. The poor Medicaid , the elderly Medicare , and most of those working, company health care.
It is those unskilled and semi-skilled workers in the middle that has little are no health care. The final question is how much health care does one require and who should pay for it ? A friend of mine asked the question , what kind of health care are do we want the government to provide Cadillac health care are Chevrolet health care.
Using an audio metaphor , separates health care or receiver health cars ?
It's your money.

[Feanor]

I will not try and compare health care in the U.S. and health care in Canada. The two systems has it's critics and supporters.
The question is are American citizens willing to pay the higher taxes for national health care ? If taxes are increased what would be the effect on American business as well as the individual tax payers ?

Western Europe has seen slow growth , high unemployment and tax avoidance because of high governmental taxes. ,. In America what would happen to our consumer based economy if the consumer has less to spend due to higher taxes.
How many Americans would have the extra money to spend on that new LCD ?,
newer surround sound system ?, , replace that 7 year old car ?, move into a larger home ? update that aging computer ? etc. Would it mean a slower growth consumer market ,?, that usually spells recession !

The issue is higher taxes are lower taxes. Most Americans have health care. The poor Medicaid , the elderly Medicare , and most of those working, company health care.
It is those unskilled and semi-skilled workers in the middle that has little are no health care. The final question is how much health care does one require and who should pay for it ? A friend of mine asked the question , what kind of health care are do we want the government to provide Cadillac health care are Chevrolet health care.
Using an audio metaphor , separates health care or receiver health cars ?
It's your money.

Melvin, your questions are all quite valid and it will be up to Americans to answer them.

A few things to bear in mind during the debate:

If a thing is "free" from the perspective of the consumer, them some sort of rationing is inevidable. But bear in mind that is applies whether the rationing agency is a government health department or a private for-profit organization, e.g. an HMO.
Take care to distinguish between the cost to government, (i.e. taxpayer), and the overall cost of the system, (i.e. the total cost per patient treated). The former might be higher while the latter is lower, e.g. there are potentially huge administrative cost saving in a universal one-payer system
Beware of the selfishness factor, (as I call it), that is, the notion among healthy/wealthy citizens that their personal level of health care will inevidably decline if they have to "subsidize" the less well/well-off. There could be a degree of truth here, but the degree of care forfeiture and/or "subsidy" might be less than they supposed -- and much less than vested interests constantly imply.

[s dog]

Watching football, surfing the web , riding atv, movies , bookstore,woodworking, music, shopping for guy stuff, audio,video,tools,dvd's,cd's, [ when i have money] playing drums.

[Feanor]

Agreed... this thread really has gone way off course...

it's all Melvin's fault!!! we should hang him for his comments (ok that made be a bit much)...

Seriously though, I don't think this is really meant to be a bash Canada/bash the US thread... both are fantastic countries with great opportunity for people to have better lives...

...

I don't think it was Melvin. I got into a little Republican bash -- it was never intended to be USA bashing.

Blackraven is correct that the Canadian health system is far from prefect. Another personal example from me is that it took over a year for me and my familty to find a family physician here in London, Ontario; chances are a "market system" would have prevented the problem. Nevertheless the Canadian system IS better than the US system for most people most of the time: no Canadian patient is know of would trade our system for the US'. For medical professionals out to maximize their incomes it might be a different matter; (blackraven, these are the sorts of people you are hearing from). Horror stories about rationing and waiting lists in Canada grossly exaggerate the real situation.

[Rich-n-Texas]

My only off-topic comment is this: THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE U.S. IS BROKEN!!!

[melvin walker]

My only off-topic comment is this: THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE U.S. IS BROKEN!!!

PROVE IT ! PRESENT SOME DATA TO SUPPORT YOUR STATEMENT. " THE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN THE U.S. IS BROKEN."

[bobsticks]

Beware of the selfishness factor, (as I call it), that is, the notion among healthy/wealthy citizens that their personal level of health care will inevidably decline if they have to "subsidize" the less well/well-off. There could be a degree of truth here, but the degree of care forfeiture and/or "subsidy" might be less than they supposed -- and much less than vested interests constantly imply.[/LIST]

Much respect to your point of view Feanor, but let's remember that everything is relative. With an estimated 12 to 15 million illegal immigrants already in the U.S. enjoying free medical health care and not contributing to the system the call for a big warm fuzzy is a bit disproportionate to the very real amount of graft within that system.

I have no problem paying taxes to address the problems of the citizenry I just expect that everyone is contributing...not necessarily to my ability but to the best of theirs. And to use a point of reference for the system being out of control I would point to the three hospitals that have gone out of business in Orange County over the last couple of years. The administrators in these facilities simply couldn't collect enough billables to stay afloat, much less make a profit. And try and find a clinic in the O.C...

Frankly, I don't care if there is a lack of transparency in the current immigration policy. To wade through it would seemingly indicate a willingness to conform to at least the rudimentary elements of citizenry. Anyone who goes through that will be welcomed as my neighbor with open arms and anyone else...not so much

[Rich-n-Texas]

Okay one more off-topic comment JUST FOR YOU MELVIN...

When I have to get approval from my health insurance provider before I can get a prescription written by my physician filled, something's not right. IOW... BROKEN!

[Groundbeef]

Okay one more off-topic comment JUST FOR YOU MELVIN...

When I have to get approval from my health insurance provider before I can get a prescription written by my physician filled, something's not right. IOW... BROKEN!

Yeah, well 150 years ago Melvin didn't need health insurance. He either bled the demons out, or waited for the snake oil salesman to sell him some "magic elixer". No doubt Heroin based, it made everything "better". Even his grammaphone sounded better.

[topspeed]

TS, have I told you I've had my car dyno'ed on the same machine Lou Gigliotti tunes his race cars on?
Well, since this thread is completely off topic anyway, you might as well spill:

Let's see the graph F-boy!!!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Beefy, was that before or after leeches?

[O'Shag]

Topspeed,

How cool is that! a German Shepherd Wolfhound mix! I know excatly what you mean. The one problem when you have these dogs around little kiddies and the elderly is they brush past and can knock someone over. But as they grow older they know, and if you train them well they're good listeners. Kublai - thats a great name. I bet she can move
I got some firm instructions from the breeder about establishing dominance when they are young. And after that Saxon took commands very well. You dont want a big huge dog 'in charge' - that can be dangerous.

[O'Shag]

Rich, You wouldn't want to walk up to an British or Canadian girl in an pub and tell her your on a fanny hunt. The Fanny in England is not the bum as it is in the US, its the front part i.e. another word for cat and can sometimes smell somewhat like fish - if you catch my drift. Mind you some girls would go for it just for the striaghtforwardness of the approach.

By the way Melvin, no offense, but with respect to the state of the Healthcare system in the US; what I think you fail to consider is that a great many people in the US have no health insurance. My mother-in-law (to be) had to go into the hospital and was there really for observational purposes for 2 days. Her bill was $29,000. She couldn;t hope to afford it (we paid). So many people cannot afford these costs. I understand the paradox, becuase if you 'socialize' or subsidize the system, then ultimately you have to raise taxes A LOT!
But I think its a mistake to assume that the system works well, it doesn't. There are problems for those of limited means i.e. the majority of the population.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Rich, You wouldn't want to walk up to an British or Canadian girl in an pub and tell her your on a fanny hunt. The Fanny in England is not the bum as it is in the US, its the front part i.e. another word for cat and can sometimes smell somewhat like fish - if you catch my drift.

:lol: Uhh... yeah, I get it O. I think we all appreciate your subtle reference to cooch as well. :biggrin5:

[O'Shag]

When I have a house of my own instead of an apartment (soon I hope) I want to build a large pre-fab workshed, where I can do woodwork and metal work, as well as work on a car project. Would love to have a welding station, plating tank, enameling oven, paint booth. I'd also set up a full electronics work area. Some projects I'd like to pursue would be to build my own fancy racks and cables. Also would try my hand at building my own preamp, amps, cables, and speakers. Chance would be a fine thing...

[Luvin Da Blues]

Rich, You wouldn't want to walk up to an British or Canadian girl in an pub and tell her your on a fanny hunt. The Fanny in England is not the bum as it is in the US, .......


Where in Canada is this? We use fanny like everyone else...hmmm, that didn't sound like I meant it.

[Groundbeef]

Beefy, was that before or after leeches?

Believe it or not, leeches are making a comeback, as well as maggots. I know it sounds gross, but maggots are VERY effective for people with diabetes that have sores that don't heal.

They basically eat the dead flesh, and only leave good flesh. This combats gangrene, and can help them (the patients) from losing a leg.

Interestingly this therapy was discovered in the Civil War. Patients who were left on the battlefield fared better than those that were brought to the "hospital" quickly. The patients that were left behind on the battfield generally had flies land on their wounds and lay eggs. The resulting maggots ate the dead flesh, and allowed the wounds to properly heal.

Those that went to the hospital usually had a limb removed with little or no pain meds and died from either shock or blood loss.

After antibiotics maggot therapy fell out of favor, but is gaining resurgance thanks to anti-biotic resistant germs.

[markw]

Believe it or not, leeches are making a comeback, as well as maggots. I know it sounds gross, but maggots are VERY effective for people with diabetes that have sores that don't heal.

They basically eat the dead flesh, and only leave good flesh. This combats gangrene, and can help them (the patients) from losing a leg.

Interestingly this therapy was discovered in the Civil War. Patients who were left on the battlefield fared better than those that were brought to the "hospital" quickly. The patients that were left behind on the battfield generally had flies land on their wounds and lay eggs. The resulting maggots ate the dead flesh, and allowed the wounds to properly heal.

Those that went to the hospital usually had a limb removed with little or no pain meds and died from either shock or blood loss.

After antibiotics maggot therapy fell out of favor, but is gaining resurgance thanks to anti-biotic resistant germs....at least without any backup, that is.

Here ya go: http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2003/july/leech.htm

[GMichael]

Where in Canada is this? We use fanny like everyone else...hmmm, that didn't sound like I meant it.

It sounds like you mean it very much.:ihih:

[melvin walker]

Okay one more off-topic comment JUST FOR YOU MELVIN...

When I have to get approval from my health insurance provider before I can get a prescription written by my physician filled, something's not right. IOW... BROKEN!
The United States Constitution does not mention health care ? Health care is not a "RIGHT"
It is the obligation of each American citizen to provide their own health care !
There are Americans that has excellent health care and there are Americans that has no health care.

If you feel that your health care provider is not providing you with exceptable care than change providers.
Most Americans have health care of some kind. how much health care is enough ? The question is who is going to pay for a national health plan ?
How many tax payers are willing to have their taxes increased ?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Sorry old man, healthcare is NOT an interest or hobby of mine.

[melvin walker]

Rich, You wouldn't want to walk up to an British or Canadian girl in an pub and tell her your on a fanny hunt. The Fanny in England is not the bum as it is in the US, its the front part i.e. another word for cat and can sometimes smell somewhat like fish - if you catch my drift. Mind you some girls would go for it just for the striaghtforwardness of the approach.

By the way Melvin, no offense, but with respect to the state of the Health care system in the US; what I think you fail to consider is that a great many people in the US have no health insurance. My mother-in-law (to be) had to go into the hospital and was there really for observational purposes for 2 days. Her bill was $29,000. She couldn't;t hope to afford it (we paid). So many people cannot afford these costs. I understand the paradox, becuase if you 'socialize' or subsidize the system, then ultimately you have to raise taxes A LOT!
But I think its a mistake to assume that the system works well, it doesn't. There are problems for those of limited means i.e. the majority of the population.

Most Americans has some form of health care. The system works for those who have decent health care , and does not work for those that does not.
Did your mother -in-law (to be) prepare for the possibility that she might become ill ?
Health care is not a RIGHT !

Health care is not my concern nor my family. My concern is higher taxes. My income is
fixed. My wife works and because she has no dependents her taxes is very high.
Our property taxes continues to rise. Than there are utility taxes , sales taxes , car license taxes , cable taxes , taxes on foods , fuel taxes , interest taxes , pay roll taxes,
There is even a tax on the dog !

It appears that many of you would prefer more taxes . "Ouch"
The reasons that many Americans shop on the Internet is to avoid state and local taxes.
Doing World War Two , there was a popular song " The ration Blues " It appears that if left to some of you the new song will be " The Tax Blues "

[basite]

Most Americans has some form of health care. The system works for those who have decent health care , and does not work for those that does not.
Did your mother -in-law (to be) prepare for the possibility that she might become ill ?
Health care is not a RIGHT !

Health care is not my concern nor my family. My concern is higher taxes. My income is
fixed. My wife works and because she has no dependents her taxes is very high.
Our property taxes continues to rise. Than there are utility taxes , sales taxes , car license taxes , cable taxes , taxes on foods , fuel taxes , interest taxes , pay roll taxes,
There is even a tax on the dog !

It appears that many of you would prefer more taxes . "Ouch"
The reasons that many Americans shop on the Internet is to avoid state and local taxes.
Doing World War Two , there was a popular song " The ration Blues " It appears that if left to some of you the new song will be " The Tax Blues "


oh yeah, I just stashed away $25k just in case I get the flu. NOT.

Perhaps you are rich enough, but most of your fellow americans are not.
Health care is not a right? you know, to me this is just another proof of how much the USA is made for the rich and the rich only.
Here in Belgium my mom and dad pay a little every month just so everyone here in our family has health care. If I break my leg tomorrow I go to the hospital and they fix it for me, then I stay there for maybe a week or so, and I pay NOTHING. This is how a country should work, it should take care of it's people. If your silly republican government can't even handle that there is a big need for new elections right now. what are they? Clowns?

We pay more, but we live with certainty. You pay less, and what you pay is being wasted on that stupid war, and once something happens to you people, half of the USA will die because they can't even afford to go to the doctor. Is that how 'The greatest nation in the world' should be? Besides, the health care should be from the government, not private, which only makes things more expensive. If the government would own it, the health care would be accessible for everyone, while only paying a fraction of what you're paying now for healthcare.

[GMichael]

The United States Constitution does not mention health care ? Health care is not a "RIGHT"
It is the obligation of each American citizen to provide their own health care !
There are Americans that has excellent health care and there are Americans that has no health care.

If you feel that your health care provider is not providing you with exceptable care than change providers.
Most Americans have health care of some kind. how much health care is enough ? The question is who is going to pay for a national health plan ?
How many tax payers are willing to have their taxes increased ?

Governments need to provide much more than just what is written in the Constitution. People need health care no matter where it is or isn't written.
How about, instead of razing taxes, they control the prices being charged. Prescription drugs are being sold at over 1000% profit. Hospitals are charging incredibly high amounts for tests that are done at a fraction of the cost. Our dentist told my wife yesterday that she needs 4 implants (no Tex, not that kind). It will only come to $12,000. Is that a joke? $12k?
Someone needs to take control the same way that utility companies were taken control of decades ago. (even though the Constitution doesn't say anything about the right to cheap electric) The prices are running ramped.

[shokhead]

I thought I would start a thread to find out what other interests or hobbies other people have.

Besides sex, alcohol and rock and roll, :6: I am a saltwater fish hobbiest with a coral reef tank and a large fish only tank. I also like to boat and water ski. And did I mention sex.
I like to fish, play sports-basketball, raquetball, cycling and lift weights. I also enjoy ethnic foods and fine dining as well as travel and watching sports. And did I mention sex!:cornut:

I see this thread went in another direction, what a shock. I've started collecting target cds.

[Ajani]

The United States Constitution does not mention health care ? Health care is not a "RIGHT"
It is the obligation of each American citizen to provide their own health care !
There are Americans that has excellent health care and there are Americans that has no health care.

If you feel that your health care provider is not providing you with exceptable care than change providers.
Most Americans have health care of some kind. how much health care is enough ? The question is who is going to pay for a national health plan ?
How many tax payers are willing to have their taxes increased ?

I hate to say this, but I agree partially with what you're saying...

Universal Health Care is not a constitutional right... to be honest, it's not even really Democratic.... it's more of a Socialist idea...

But I certainly support it....

Despite the years spent convincing the world that Socialism/Communism is Evil and Democracy is Good... the world is more gray than black & white...

Socialist Regimes often favoured the dictator and made goods and services stagnant... and killed individual freedom of choices...

But

Democracy totally favours the rich... If you can afford healthcare, you get it... if not... you die... if you can afford to send your children to a good school, then you do it... otherwise the go to the cheapest, crime ridden school available or don't go to school at all... Hence the poor stay poor and die... while the rich get richer...

America, like much of the world, is not a 100% Democracy.... the Government intervenes in the free market as it deems fit... and even though Universal Healthcare is not a right, I suspect it would be a much better use of the taxpayers dollars than spending on wars...

[Groundbeef]

Our dentist told my wife yesterday that she needs 4 implants (no Tex, not that kind). It will only come to $12,000. Is that a joke? $12k?


You know, George Washington, had wooden false teeth? I'm just finishing up my basement and have some scrap wood left over. I could carve out a few, (maybe 8? in case one gets lost, or burnt up if she smokes), paint them white, and include a couple tubes of super glue.

For my part, I would only ask about $4,000 (that ought to carpet the basement nicely).

Drop me a PM if you want me to start right away. I've got some real nice maple that shapes very well.

BTW wooden dental implants is one of my hobbies.

[Ajani]

I guess I should add 'Debating US Politics on Audioreview' as one of my hobbies....

[melvin walker]

I hate to say this, but I agree partially with what you're saying...

Universal Health Care is not a constitutional right... to be honest, it's not even really Democratic.... it's more of a Socialist idea...

But I certainly support it....

Despite the years spent convincing the world that Socialism/Communism is Evil and Democracy is Good... the world is more gray than black & white...

Socialist Regimes often favoured the dictator and made goods and services stagnant... and killed individual freedom of choices...

But

Democracy totally favours the rich... If you can afford health care, you get it... if not... you die... if you can afford to send your children to a good school, then you do it... otherwise the go to the cheapest, crime ridden school available or don't go to school at all... Hence the poor stay poor and die... while the rich get richer...

America, like much of the world, is not a 100% Democracy.... the Government intervenes in the free market as it deems fit... and even though Universal Health care is not a right, I suspect it would be a much better use of the taxpayers dollars than spending on wars...

The United States is a Democratic Republic , not a Democracy. Are you referring to capitalism not democracy ? Few Americans die from lack of health care. Many middle class Americans came from poor families. In America one has the right to fail or succeed. Some succeed while some fail.

Wars serve an interest , when two are more countries cannot solve a political problem they go to war. That has been happening for 10,000 years. You have a right as an American citizen to support a representative that supports your attitudes regarding national health.

my family is not rich but we enjoy excellent health care. Maybe it is because we prepared for it. sort of like the grasshopper and the ant. Those who lack health care I would say is more like the grasshopper , they didn't prepare.
Why should anyone attend school . plan , work smart , and than be forced to help those who did nothing ? Didn't finish school , didn't plan , did not work smart ,but than looked around and said to those who did they owe them health care and with no usable skills a job with a living wage.
What should we do as a nation about those people ?

[melvin walker]

Governments need to provide much more than just what is written in the Constitution. People need health care no matter where it is or isn't written.
How about, instead of razing taxes, they control the prices being charged. Prescription drugs are being sold at over 1000% profit. Hospitals are charging incredibly high amounts for tests that are done at a fraction of the cost. Our dentist told my wife yesterday that she needs 4 implants (no Tex, not that kind). It will only come to $12,000. Is that a joke? $12k?
Someone needs to take control the same way that utility companies were taken control of decades ago. (even though the Constitution doesn't say anything about the right to cheap electric) The prices are running ramped.

President Richard Nixon tried wage and price controls it didn't work. Most American have health coverage. if you think your dentist is overcharging , change dentist.
Hospitals only supply the medical test doctors request , doctors request unneeded test because of the fear of lawsuits. Insurance companies increase premiums and refuse to pay for unneeded test , hospitals are in the middle . who pays?

The British tried nationalizing private industries , it didn't work. Government does a poor job of either creating wealth or managing wealth.
Most Americans are not willing to pay for a national health plan because of the increase in taxes. If any politician runs on raising taxes his days are numbered.

There is a national health plan in Germany , are Americans willing to pay the high taxes Germans pay ? Higher taxes mean generally , higher unemployment . and slower growth ,
which is what has happen to Germany. Germany now is looking for a way to reduce taxes by ending or reducing some of their social programs.

Please don't knock the United States Constitution it is working. As for as profit , would you wish to limit profit, if so how would you do that ? Remember the Constitution , or would you rather have a Soviet style system ?
I remember when President Nixon tried price controls , things went crazy. Take a bag of potato chips , the government controls the price of a bag of chips but the company controls the number of chips in the bag. The government said put more chips in the bag ,
the company started charging for the bag , than the bag got smaller, the government than demanded a larger bag , than the company removed the salt from the chips , on and one.
Believe it or not this really happen.
Thinks got crazy. CONTROLS DON'T WORK !

[Ajani]

The United States is a Democratic Republic , not a Democracy. Are you referring to capitalism not democracy ? Few Americans die from lack of health care. Many middle class Americans came from poor families. In America one has the right to fail or succeed. Some succeed while some fail.

Wars serve an interest , when two are more countries cannot solve a political problem they go to war. That has been happening for 10,000 years. You have a right as an American citizen to support a representative that supports your attitudes regarding national health.

my family is not rich but we enjoy excellent health care. Maybe it is because we prepared for it. sort of like the grasshopper and the ant. Those who lack health care I would say is more like the grasshopper , they didn't prepare.
Why should anyone attend school . plan , work smart , and than be forced to help those who did nothing ? Didn't finish school , didn't plan , did not work smart ,but than looked around and said to those who did they owe them health care and with no usable skills a job with a living wage.
What should we do as a nation about those people ?

The problem with that statement is that it assumes that the people who need help 'did nothing'.... which really isn't always the case.... and while I'll agree that some poor people are able to work hard and make it out of poverty, many work hard and never do.... should healthcare be only for those smart enough to make it out of poverty? What about those who are poor and hard working but not particularly smart? Should they not be able to have healthcare?

I don't expect you to agree with me, since you seem to be a die-hard republican and a 'capitalist'... lol....

Edit: I forgot to point out that someone can also be smart and hardworking and still not get out of poverty... opportunity and luck also play a strong role....

[melvin walker]

oh yeah, I just stashed away $25k just in case I get the flu. NOT.

Perhaps you are rich enough, but most of your fellow americans are not.
Health care is not a right? you know, to me this is just another proof of how much the USA is made for the rich and the rich only.
Here in Belgium my mom and dad pay a little every month just so everyone here in our family has health care. If I break my leg tomorrow I go to the hospital and they fix it for me, then I stay there for maybe a week or so, and I pay NOTHING. This is how a country should work, it should take care of it's people. If your silly republican government can't even handle that there is a big need for new elections right now. what are they? Clowns?

We pay more, but we live with certainty. You pay less, and what you pay is being wasted on that stupid war, and once something happens to you people, half of the USA will die because they can't even afford to go to the doctor. Is that how 'The greatest nation in the world' should be? Besides, the health care should be from the government, not private, which only makes things more expensive. If the government would own it, the health care would be accessible for everyone, while only paying a fraction of what you're paying now for healthcare.

Belgium is a very small country. it has a very small defense , America protects Belgium through NATO. America is a country of 300 million people. Americans enjoy their German cars , French wines , Italian suits and Japanese electronics. In other words we love luxuries. Most Americans have health insurance. Those who don't still get health care.
What is the personal tax rate in Belgium ? I know it is very high for cars.
I drive a 380 horsepower V12 , which weights about 4000 lbs. what would be the taxes on my car in Belgium. how much is a liter of gas ?

That stupid war keeps your oil prices low and keeps you safe. We are a large continental country , a super power, when we sneeze the rest of the world catches a cold. Things are very different when you have the entire free world to protect.
A counterpoint.

[O'Shag]

Melvin Old Chap,

I do honestly respect your views and many Americans share it. You are clearly a patriot (as am I - I'm also a Patriots fan) and that is to be admired. But, it really is as if you are in denial. And many Americans have their head under the same rock. There needs to be a mass awakening to smell the coffee so to speak. I know that it really is of no consequence to the very rich, but, contrary to what you suggest, a great many Americans (perhaps the majority) have no healthcare coverage whatsoever. That means if you get sick and don't have healthcare coverage, which 2.999 out of 3 people will get sick at some point in their life, you better know some good home remedies. I don't get sick often (I put it down to the cod liver oil I was force fed as a kid). But many Americans facing a serious, perhaps chronic or life threatening illness are somewhat up sh!t's creek. What about the child who has asthma for example? For even a middle class household, do you have any idea what that medicine costs? Even when covered, the residual costs for the parents are prohibitive. What about people suffering from, lets say, MS. Do you know how much medicine for such a condition costs? I have a friend with MS, and they constantly struggle with the costs of medicine. I know that there are public health services available, but you can expect no quality healthcare there, and you may likely expect to die of the treatment (or lack thereof) rather than the disease. I know its a complex problem, and its easy to point fingers. The problem here, is that this is such a vast country with one of the world's largest populations. You seem to be an interesting and intelligent person, but in this case I think you over-simplify the matter somewhat. Ajani is right; the world is not just black and white, there are many shades of gray.

My brother-in-law (to be) is a Doctor. My son is studying medicine at UCLA medical school, so I am in no way putting down the medical profession, but rather the drug companies and the system which supports their ludicrously over-profitable enterprise, at the crippling expense of the vast majority of the American public. This is why I so admire a surgeon like Ben Carson (Neurosurgeon), who frequently charges way lower than average knowing that his patients (generally children) are unable to pay.

I'm not suggesting that the answer lies in 'socialization' of the American healthcare system, but the powers that be can take steps to assure that the drug companies keep the costs of there 'hi-end-cable-priced' medicine at a level which the average citizen an afford. And believe me, they can...

[jamison]

this is a hobby of mine in the warmer months. I affectionatly named her visa since she likes my credit card.



http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee191/jamison42166/?action=view&current=mustang2007006.jpg

http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee191/jamison42166/?action=view&current=mustang2007010.jpg

[blackraven]

Health care is not a right but it is the morally right thing to do. The problem with health care in this country is multifactoral. This is from a doctors point of view.

1-liability, people want a guarenteed good outcome and right diagnosis from the first visit.
Dr's cant be right 100% of the time and people sue when their not. Bad things happen that are out of a Dr's control and therefore we have to practice defensive medicine ordering a multitude of unecessary tests.

2-product liabilty, drugs and new technologies cost so much because of product liability. There are risks with taking any drug. Bad things happen and drug companies get sued for 100's of millions of dollars. If asprin were to be discoverd today, it would never make it as an over the counter prescrition because of all the bad side effects that can happen with the drug and peolpe would be suing the drug companies that made the drug left and right. However, society tolerates the lethal side effects of cigarettes and alcohol, go figure. Cigarettes are directly attributed to most of the high dollar health problems and deaths than more than anything else.

3-people want to feel good all the time and want drugs or medicines to make them feel better. I work in a 40,000 patient visit per year emergency dept. And most of what we see does not need to be there. The majority of fevers, coughs, cold, headaches , backaches etc, get better on their own with out treatment. Nobody knows what to do for a cold or fever or flu anymore. Years ago people never went to the doctor for these problems. We see hundreds of people who come in because they vomited 2-3 times or the have had diarrhia for a day. It cost $200 just to walk in the door of the emergency dept before any tests are ordered or treatment given. You may think thats alot, but when you figure that the hospital must staff it 24hrs a day with nurses, doctors , nursing assistants, janitors, xray techs, respiratory therapists, social workers,lab techs, secretaries, electronic techs, admitting clerks, security officers and pay all their salary's then its a bargain. They also have to cover the cost of patients with out insurance who never pay a dime to the hospital. And we are a nonprofit hospital.

4-No body is allowed to die in this country. Family's want you to keep alive their 90year old relative who has severe alzheimers, who is a nursing home, whom they only visit once a year and now has a stroke or heart attack or even cancer. This happens all to often on a daily basis in every hospital in the country. These patients just soak up health care dollars. These are the type of patients in Canada were they would ration care and with hold it and rightly so. This is a major money hog in the american system and its only going to get worse as the baby boomers get older.

I could go on and on and there are no easy answers because who is going to pay for universal healthcare and the american public is not going to like malpractice reform and rationing of health care. You can look at the Austrailia's system which went from a private system to a gov't system and see that people here in the States will not be happy.
There, people can wait for days in the ER and deaths in the ER is common. And I know this from talking with many Austrailian Dr's and a Dr in our group who practiced there for years.

[Feanor]

Health care is not a right but it is the morally right thing to do. The problem with health care in this country is multifactoral. This is from a doctors point of view.
...
4-No body is allowed to die in this country. Family's want you to keep alive their 90year old relative who has severe alzheimers, who is a nursing home, whom they only visit once a year and now has a stroke or heart attack or even cancer. This happens all to often on a daily basis in every hospital in the country. These patients just soak up health care dollars. These are the type of patients in Canada were they would ration care and with hold it and rightly so. This is a major money hog in the american system and its only going to get worse as the baby boomers get older.

...

b/r, perhaps I'll get back to you on some of the other points, but I've got to call you on your huge self-contradiction in this case. In an earlier post, you criticized the Canadian health system because an elderly gentleman was (supposedly) denied an optimal drug because of his age and state of health. Now it seems you're agreeing.

We'll win you over yet. :cornut:

[basite]

That stupid war keeps your oil prices low and keeps you safe. We are a large continental country , a super power, when we sneeze the rest of the world catches a cold. Things are very different when you have the entire free world to protect.
A counterpoint.


no, that stupid war has made the gas prices go up,
WAY up.

you nuke a country, that country will hate the rich west, and the oil export will be cut, so the prices will rise. Right now prices are about 1€ for a litre, when the war just started, we payed 0.5€. Half the price of what we're paying now.

and car taxes are fairly high here, because we don't want people to drive gigantic cars here, it's busy enough already in the streets, big fat SUV's are not going to help that, driving a Smart will.

[GMichael]

President Richard Nixon tried wage and price controls it didn't work. Most American have health coverage. if you think your dentist is overcharging , change dentist.

Plan to get a second quote. The fact that ANY dentist would say $12k for this should throw up a red flag. Are you not alarmed by that price at all?


Hospitals only supply the medical test doctors request , doctors request unneeded test because of the fear of lawsuits. And the chance to put even more money in their pockets.

Insurance companies increase premiums and refuse to pay for unneeded test. Key word here is unneeded. Do you believe that they should pay for unneeded anything? ,
hospitals are in the middle . who pays? Hospitals are making more than they need to. Profits are through the roof while care is dropping off. It's a bad road to be going down.


The British tried nationalizing private industries , it didn't work. Government does a poor job of either creating wealth or managing wealth.
Most Americans are not willing to pay for a national health plan because of the increase in taxes. If any politician runs on raising taxes his days are numbered.

There is a national health plan in Germany , are Americans willing to pay the high taxes Germans pay ? Higher taxes mean generally , higher unemployment . and slower growth ,
which is what has happen to Germany. Germany now is looking for a way to reduce taxes by ending or reducing some of their social programs.

No plan is ever perfect. All we can do it try to make things better. Would you have us not try at all?


Please don't knock the United States Constitution.

I never did and resent you implying so. You brought it up that it doesn't give us the right to healthcare. My point is that it doesn't have to. We still need it either way.


As for as profit , would you wish to limit profit, if so how would you do that ? Remember the Constitution , or would you rather have a Soviet style system ?

You do know that there's a difference between communism and socialism right? In any case, I was only suggesting that controls are needed. It doesn't take a genius to see that. Our government already has a hand in what we pay for electric now. You do know that right?


I remember when President Nixon tried price controls , things went crazy. Take a bag of potato chips , the government controls the price of a bag of chips but the company controls the number of chips in the bag. The government said put more chips in the bag ,
the company started charging for the bag , than the bag got smaller, the government than demanded a larger bag , than the company removed the salt from the chips , on and one.
Believe it or not this really happen.
Thinks got crazy. CONTROLS DON'T WORK !

Potato chips? Are you kidding me? This is the example you came up with? The public does not NEED potato chips. They do however need health care. SOME CONTROLS ARE NEEDED.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I like to eat. I like Snyders Sour Dough hard pretzels with beer!

[basite]

I like to eat. I like Snyders Sour Dough hard pretzels with beer!


oh, join the club...

I believe there's still some beer left in the fridge...

dunno about the pretzels :)

[blackraven]

Feanor, originally I was pointing out that there are problems with the Canadian system and that its not perfect. I think that Canada does have a better system but that they sometimes with hold state of the art medicine as in the case of my partners father. My friends father was just old and did not have alzhiemers and was in good health living with his wife at home before his heart attack. He was not ill and stuck in a nursing home and unaware of his surroundings like the example I gave in my last post. I believe as many doctors do, that when you are terminally ill with a poor quality of life and an advanced age that we need to give only comfort care and not waste tens of thousands of dollars trying to keep these people alive. This is where the Canadain system excels and we drop the ball. But in the case of my friends father the Canadian system was at fault. He would have survived here in the US and gone on to live with a good quality of life for a few more years.
Here in the US that would never have happend. There are more hospitals in this country that have state of the art technology as opposed to Canada and thats a fact. And if universal health care does go through here then I think that old man still would have go to the heart cath lab instead of being given a clot busting drug. The public here will just not go for that.

[Rich-n-Texas]

dunno about the pretzels :)
When I still lived in Jersey there was an Amish store not far from where I worked and one of the secretaries used to go there once-in-a-while and pick up authentic Pennsylvania Dutch rotisserie chicken and Bavarian soft pretzels for lunch that were to die for.


Sometimes I miss Jersey.

Yeah, okay. :rolleyes:

[Groundbeef]

Plan to get a second quote. The fact that ANY dentist would say $12k for this should throw up a red flag. Are you not alarmed by that price at all? .

Yeah, I think he's a bit high. Remeber, I offered to make your wife a natty set of wooden choppers for the low low price of $4000. In Canadian thats like 3 canoes, a loon, and 2 moose.




Potato chips? Are you kidding me? This is the example you came up with? The public does not NEED potato chips. They do however need health care. SOME CONTROLS ARE NEEDED.

Now you are a communist. Potato chips are a gold standard for where America has gotten to. You don't see North Korea putting price controls on potato chips do ya? Get outta here!

[GMichael]

Yeah, I think he's a bit high. Remeber, I offered to make your wife a natty set of wooden choppers for the low low price of $4000. In Canadian thats like 3 canoes, a loon, and 2 moose.




Now you are a communist. Potato chips are a gold standard for where America has gotten to. You don't see North Korea putting price controls on potato chips do ya? Get outta here!

I have not seen any proof that you can make these "choppers" as you say. Where did you learn this trade? Do you have a diploma? If so, please post a link to it.
Only p-chips with Elvis on them count.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Who's a loon? Who said I'm a loon? I'm not a loon, you're a loon.

Freakin' loon.

[Groundbeef]

I have not seen any proof that you can make these "choppers" as you say. Where did you learn this trade? Do you have a diploma? If so, please post a link to it.
Only p-chips with Elvis on them count.

Only an ass would ask for proof of education when given a 67% reduction in fees. If you don't want the savings that's fine. But don't impune my trade craft with demands for "proof".

As further evidence of your imbicile mental capabilites you suggest that only chips with "Elvis" on them count. Everyone knows, that chips with Frank Sinatra on them are real chips.

[GMichael]

Albatross!

Albatross!

Excuse me sir, I'll take an Albatross flavored ice cream.

What?

I said that I'll take one of the Albatross flavored ice creams you are selling.

[GMichael]

Only an ass would ask for proof of education when given a 67% reduction in fees. If you don't want the savings that's fine. But don't impune my trade craft with demands for "proof".

As further evidence of your imbicile mental capabilites you suggest that only chips with "Elvis" on them count. Everyone knows, that chips with Frank Sinatra on them are real chips.

Prove it. :prrr:

[Groundbeef]

Albatross!

Albatross!

Excuse me sir, I'll take an Albatross flavored ice cream.

What?

I said that I'll take one of the Albatross flavored ice creams you are selling.

I don't know what the hell your talking about, but I just did a spit-take. Well played my friend. Well played.

[Groundbeef]

Prove it. :prrr:

Frank Sinatra chips are more sophisticated. Elvis chips are for the common man. And tell me when the Japanese have EVER won a chip championship!

[Rich-n-Texas]

That HAD to have been an Abbott & Costello conversation, right?

YO! Slow down will ya?!

Whoops!

[Groundbeef]

That HAD to have been and Abbott & Costello conversation, right?

YO! Slow down will ya?!

Nice grammar Melvin.

[markw]

Frank Sinatra chips are more sophisticated. Elvis chips are for the common man. And tell me when the Japanese have EVER won a chip championship!This all sounds like a buncha bull chips to me.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Uhhh... Don't quit your day job Mark.

:biggrin5:

[GMichael]

That HAD to have been an Abbott & Costello conversation, right?

YO! Slow down will ya?!

Whoops!

Monty Python

[Rich-n-Texas]

Nice grammar Melvin.
Who's Melvin? Who said I'm Melvin? I'm not Melvin, you're Melvin.

Freakin' loon.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Monty Python
Well, I was close. :idea:

[blackraven]

This has got to be one of the craziest threads!

[audio amateur]

this is a hobby of mine in the warmer months. I affectionatly named her visa since she likes my credit card.



http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee191/jamison42166/?action=view&current=mustang2007006.jpg

http://s232.photobucket.com/albums/ee191/jamison42166/?action=view&current=mustang2007010.jpg
Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!!!!!!! Will you take me for a ride?:D

[E-Stat]

Perhaps you are rich enough, but most of your fellow americans are not.
Health care is not a right? you know, to me this is just another proof of how much the USA is made for the rich and the rich only.
There's some middle ground here. No, health care is not a right in the sense of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. When the French and American Constitutions were penned in the 19th century, people just died from serious illness. The American dream exists for many millions of its citizens and continues to draw immigrants from all over the world.


what are they? Clowns?
Believers in a free, non-socialistic state that breeds innovation. Those who choose to educate themselves and work can easily find health care.


and what you pay is being wasted on that stupid war...
Hindsight is always 20/20. There was never a question as to whether or not Hussein had WMDs. He used them on his own people. After he invaded Kuwait, he launched guided missiles to Israeli cities just for good measure. It is a rare occasion when the KGB, MI5, and the CIA agree on something. Unfortunately in this case, they were wrong. The stakes for misjudging, however, remain high. A French diplomat once requested that we remove our military presence from their shores. The American general then asked if we should also take home the bodies of thousands of American GIs who fought for their freedom. The request was withdrawn.


Is that how 'The greatest nation in the world' should be?
In my humble opinion, yes. We are the land of opportunity, not the free lunch. We have the potential to earn more and spend it as we please. Choices.

rw

[blackraven]

I think I like you E-stat! By the way, I lived in Fort Smith Arkansas after I got out of med school and practiced emergency medicine there before going on and doing a residency in emergency medicine in pennsylvania. Clinton was the Gov back then. Its hard to belive that he made it to president because every one in Arkansas new he was cheating on Hilary back then.

[O'Shag]

But Blackraven, if some gossip is to be believed, Hilary was also cheating on Bill, with other women!!
But there's no excuse IMO for Bill Clinton defiling the Oval Office, the most sacred room in the Whitehouse. If he wanted to get it on with Monica, he could have at least taken her somewhere else. I don't get how Americans were not really pissed off about this, not to mention bs-ing the public with the I-didn't-do-it line.

[jamison]

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!!!!!!! Will you take me for a ride?:D
only if your a well built female ! lol just kidding thanks for the compliments.

i saw a car with a bumpersticker saying monica lewinskys ex boyfriends wife for president in 08. i think it will be a cold day in hell if billary becomes president. I mean if she gets nominated willl she nominate bill for vice president? LOL

[bobsticks]

Albatross!

Albatross!

Excuse me sir, I'll take an Albatross flavored ice cream.

What?

I said that I'll take one of the Albatross flavored ice creams you are selling.



Eskimo.

[bobsticks]

There's some middle ground here. No, health care is not a right in the sense of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. When the French and American Constitutions were penned in the 19th century, people just died from serious illness. The American dream exists for many millions of its citizens and continues to draw immigrants from all over the world.


Believers in a free, non-socialistic state that breeds innovation. Those who choose to educate themselves and work can easily find health care.


Hindsight is always 20/20. There was never a question as to whether or not Hussein had WMDs. He used them on his own people. After he invaded Kuwait, he launched guided missiles to Israeli cities just for good measure. It is a rare occasion when the KGB, MI5, and the CIA agree on something. Unfortunately in this case, they were wrong. The stakes for misjudging, however, remain high. A French diplomat once requested that we remove our military presence from their shores. The American general then asked if we should also take home the bodies of thousands of American GIs who fought for their freedom. The request was withdrawn.


In my humble opinion, yes. We are the land of opportunity, not the free lunch. We have the potential to earn more and spend it as we please. Choices.

rw


Great read over morning coffee. Gracias, E-Stat.

[Feanor]

Much respect to your point of view Feanor, but let's remember that everything is relative. With an estimated 12 to 15 million illegal immigrants already in the U.S. enjoying free medical health care and not contributing to the system the call for a big warm fuzzy is a bit disproportionate to the very real amount of graft within that system.
...


The illegal immigrant issue is an important one for the US. Indeed, a huge strain would (is) put on the US health system by illegals. Of course the real issue is why the US tolerates so many illegal immigrants. If the US was serious about it would (1) not only build a wall, but also (2) make illegal residence in the country a criminal offense instead of just a misdemeanor, (3) make it a crime to imploy an illegal resident, and (4) authorize lethal force against anyone in the act of crossing the border illegally. But can this happen? I doubt it with business pressure on government: with cheap illegal labor wages are much lower and many taxes and benefits are avoided.


I have no problem paying taxes to address the problems of the citizenry I just expect that everyone is contributing...not necessarily to my ability but to the best of theirs. And to use a point of reference for the system being out of control I would point to the three hospitals that have gone out of business in Orange County over the last couple of years. The administrators in these facilities simply couldn't collect enough billables to stay afloat, much less make a profit. And try and find a clinic in the O.C.

In Canada hospitals collect 100% of their billings.

[Feanor]

There's some middle ground here. No, health care is not a right in the sense of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. When the French and American Constitutions were penned in the 19th century, people just died from serious illness. The American dream exists for many millions of its citizens and continues to draw immigrants from all over the world.
Believers in a free, non-socialistic state that breeds innovation. Those who choose to educate themselves and work can easily find health care.
...
I don't believe that the facts support the your last assertion: hard working middle class people can and do drop through the US system of private insurance. Watch CNN for examples.

As to whether health care is a right, (entitlement or whatever), is not a matter principle, but a matter of choice on part ot the American electorate.


Hindsight is always 20/20. There was never a question as to whether or not Hussein had WMDs. He used them on his own people. After he invaded Kuwait, he launched guided missiles to Israeli cities just for good measure. It is a rare occasion when the KGB, MI5, and the CIA agree on something. Unfortunately in this case, they were wrong.
...
Not a matter of hindsight: some people opposed the war despite believing that there were WsMD. They believed that Sadam ought to be contained by other means. Obama and I for two.


In my humble opinion, yes. We are the land of opportunity, not the free lunch. We have the potential to earn more and spend it as we please. Choices.
rw
Consider that this conventional, head-in-the-sand attitude might be the reason that an international agency recently rated the U.S. only 23rd in the world's best countries in which to live.

[Ajani]

The illegal immigrant issue is an important one for the US. Indeed, a huge strain would (is) put on the US health system by illegals. Of course the real issue is why the US tolerates so many illegal immigrants. If the US was serious about it would (1) not only build a wall, but also (2) make illegal residence in the country a criminal offense instead of just a misdemeanor, (3) make it a crime to imploy an illegal resident, and (4) authorize lethal force against anyone in the act of crossing the border illegally. But can this happen? I doubt it with business pressure on government: with cheap illegal labor wages are much lower and many taxes and benefits are avoided.

I agree for the most part... not so sure about point (4).... but I see the logic...

But let me play devil's advocate here:

If a 16 year old mexican girl attempted to cross the border illegally, would lethal force still be authorized? I know that just because it's authorized doesn't mean it has to be used.... but just think of the public relations nightmare for the US, if some trigger happy border guard decides to shoot down a truck full of women and children..... So I would be hesitant to authorize lethal force...


Also,

I really believe, that in addition to stricter border control and measures to keep out illegal immigrants, the US should try and make the path to legal immigration more transparent and accessible for the right people....

[Ajani]

There's some middle ground here. No, health care is not a right in the sense of life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. When the French and American Constitutions were penned in the 19th century, people just died from serious illness. The American dream exists for many millions of its citizens and continues to draw immigrants from all over the world.


Believers in a free, non-socialistic state that breeds innovation. Those who choose to educate themselves and work can easily find health care.

..............

In my humble opinion, yes. We are the land of opportunity, not the free lunch. We have the potential to earn more and spend it as we please. Choices.

rw

Universal healthcare really is a tough issue... though I support it... I agee that America should not be the land of the free lunch....

It is unfair to force someone to give to charity (which is essentially what paying taxes to support those who can't afford healthcare is)... but if I was voting in a US election, I might vote for universal healthcare...

Of course that assumes Hilary becomes the Democratic nominee, since Obama is not for universal healthcare... and Obama is my current favourite for President.... Since he seems like someone who is open to reason and logical discussion... which are IMHO essential to being President...

But that's just my opinion....


And I guess I should now add watching US news to my list of hobbies...

[audio amateur]

Great read over morning coffee. Gracias, E-Stat.
It's also a great read over morning tea;)

[Ajani]

I think I like you E-stat! By the way, I lived in Fort Smith Arkansas after I got out of med school and practiced emergency medicine there before going on and doing a residency in emergency medicine in pennsylvania. Clinton was the Gov back then. Its hard to belive that he made it to president because every one in Arkansas new he was cheating on Hilary back then.

I'm not sure why the fact that Bill cheated on his wife was ever really an issue... While I don't believe in cheating, it seems like an issue between him and his wife..... I just don't see how it affected his Presidency....

It's like saying that a CEO of a large company is a bad CEO because he had an affair.. nope, he may be the best CEO the company has ever had... he's just a bad husband...

Though, one point O'Shag raised that got me thinking, was about how he defiled the Oval office.... and truth is that I can't argue with that one.... If I had sex with my wife after hours in my office, I'd probably get fired....

[Luvin Da Blues]

Though, one point O'Shag raised that got me thinking, was about how he defiled the Oval office.... and truth is that I can't argue with that one.... If I had sex with my wife after hours in my office, I'd probably get fired....


It's perfectly OK tho..it wasn't his wife.

[Ajani]

It's perfectly OK tho..it wasn't his wife.

LOL....

I suspect I'd get fired whether it was my wife, the secretary, a homeless girl... who/whatever...

[Feanor]

I agree for the most part... not so sure about point (4).... but I see the logic...

But let me play devil's advocate here:

If a 16 year old mexican girl attempted to cross the border illegally, would lethal force still be authorized? I know that just because it's authorized doesn't mean it has to be used.... but just think of the public relations nightmare for the US, if some trigger happy border guard decides to shoot down a truck full of women and children..... So I would be hesitant to authorize lethal force...

Also, I really believe, that in addition to stricter border control and measures to keep out illegal immigrants, the US should try and make the path to legal immigration more transparent and accessible for the right people....

Sure: shoot 'em. Men, women, children -- well OK, I'm negociable on point No.4. But to added another item (5) to my list, it ought to be impossible for illegals to obtain schooling, social benefits including health care, or for that matter a driver's license if you're illegal.

Understand my points though. (1) The problem of illegal immigration is or ought to be separate from the health care issue, and (2) illegal immigration is source of cheap labor that many, many American businesses, (especially small-medium), would hate to forego -- and business interests have American politicians by the nuts.

[Feanor]

...
Consider that this conventional, head-in-the-sand attitude might be the reason that an international agency recently rated the U.S. only 23rd in the world's best countries in which to live.

Actually the U.S. is a lot better than 23rd: I do apologize.

As this new items explains, the list toping countries are:

Norway
Australia
Ireland
Sweden
Canada
Japan
United States... CTV new item (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20061109/un_countrylivein_061109?s_name=&no_ads=).

[E-Stat]

I don't believe that the facts support the your last assertion: hard working middle class people can and do drop through the US system of private insurance. Watch CNN for examples.
You can always parade exceptions to every rule.


As to whether health care is a right, (entitlement or whatever), is not a matter principle, but a matter of choice on part ot the American electorate.
Correct. I've yet to see another country's model I prefer. I just read that already the cost to the State of Texas alone for providing health care to illegal immigrants (not even our own citizens) is a couple billion per year.


Not a matter of hindsight: some people opposed the war despite believing that there were WsMD. They believed that Sadam ought to be contained by other means. Obama and I for two.
I was referring to the eventual discovery that indeed Hussein had destroyed or effectively hid the remaining WMDs. Worldwide intelligence suggested otherwise. Other means? How many dozen UN resolutions and sanctions did Hussein laugh at while attacking neighboring countries? On the surface at least, he claimed the Kuwaitis were stealing their oil supplies beneath Iraqui soil. While that was never proven, please explain the rationale why he bombed Israeli cities with ballistic missiles? Not military targets as we did. Cities. People. Children. Folks having lunch.


Consider that this conventional, head-in-the-sand attitude might be the reason that an international agency recently rated the U.S. only 23rd in the world's best countries in which to live.
We'll send the millions of illegal immigrants your way instead and remind them of the study. :) BTW, what study is that?

rw

[melvin walker]

no, that stupid war has made the gas prices go up,
WAY up.

you nuke a country, that country will hate the rich west, and the oil export will be cut, so the prices will rise. Right now prices are about 1€ for a litre, when the war just started, we payed 0.5€. Half the price of what we're paying now.

and car taxes are fairly high here, because we don't want people to drive gigantic cars here, it's busy enough already in the streets, big fat SUV's are not going to help that, driving a Smart will.

Your car taxes are high for medium and large cars not just SUV"s Your fuel taxes are very high , your payroll taxes are very high. Taxes in your country is high period. The economic growth in your country is slow and has been slow for years. Unemployment in your country has been above average for years.
Most of cost of patrol in your country is due to taxes. Western European countries are suffering from high taxes , high unemployed , and slow growth.

Belgium is not a bad country , but like more Western European countries it suffers from to many government social programs , that is becoming harder and harder to fund.

[melvin walker]

Universal healthcare really is a tough issue... though I support it... I agee that America should not be the land of the free lunch....

It is unfair to force someone to give to charity (which is essentially what paying taxes to support those who can't afford healthcare is)... but if I was voting in a US election, I might vote for universal healthcare...

Of course that assumes Hilary becomes the Democratic nominee, since Obama is not for universal healthcare... and Obama is my current favourite for President.... Since he seems like someone who is open to reason and logical discussion... which are IMHO essential to being President...

But that's just my opinion....


And I guess I should now add watching US news to my list of hobbies...

All American receive health care ! , the elderly Medicare , the poor Medicare , many have health Insurance , those with none of the above receive free health care. Any American that requires health care can get it free ! That is the law.

It is the type of health care that is the issue. Should all Americans receive the same health care ? American politicians many times mislead Americans for political reasons , especially the Democrats. The Democrats are in to higher taxes , especially Mrs. Clinton.
Higher taxes would slow the American economy and America would be in the same shape as western Europe. High unemployment and slow growth. Is that what most of you want ?

I have a cousin who teaches music a t a university in Austria , he has excellent social benefits , after taxes little else. Austria is a fairly wealthy country by European standards.
Labor unions out of control , high taxes , social programs out of control and double digit unemployment has had a negative effect on European countries.

An American worker and a German worker earn about the same the differences is the American keeps most of his salary. Those luxury cars built in Germany is shipped to America.

[E-Stat]

Actually the U.S. is a lot better than 23rd: I do apologize.

As this new items explains, the list toping countries are:
Norway
I read the document to which you linked. As for Norway, I found this interesting:

"Norway, a nation of 4.6 million people, is the world's third-largest oil exporter, after Saudi Arabia."

That speaks volumes. That would be like one of the fifty American states being the world's third largest source of income. It is also far easier to manage a relatively small country. Maybe the US should fly all our immigrants to Norway on a KLM 747. Norway's population would double in no time!

rw

[Ajani]

All American receive health care ! , the elderly Medicare , the poor Medicare , many have health Insurance , those with none of the above receive free health care. Any American that requires health care can get it free ! That is the law.

It is the type of health care that is the issue. Should all Americans receive the same health care ?

I can't comment on the level of healthcare received by "all Americans".... but I suspect it must be insuficient for many... or else universal healthcare would be a non-issue....

Should only those able to afford it get good healthcare and those unable to do so, be stuck without it....

Imagine someone who starts out very poor, but is smart... pays attention in school, goes to college, and before he can begin working manifests a serious illness and needs expensive medical care.... should he not receive it because he wasn't able to "hold off" becoming ill untill he was employed (and able to get health insurance from his job)?

As I said, the issue really is a tough one...

And as for higher taxes... I think the issue is often whether the taxes are being properly utilized.... I'm not in favor of more taxes, but I suspect that there are better ways to use some of the country's money...

[Feanor]

....

Imagine someone who starts out very poor, but is smart... pays attention in school, goes to college, and before he can begin working manifests a serious illness and needs expensive medical care.... should he not receive it because he wasn't able to "hold off" becoming ill untill he was employed (and able to get health insurance from his job)?

As I said, the issue really is a tough one...

...



The is notion that is tightly engrained in the American psyche:
America is the land of opportunity. Anyone how works hard and shows intiative can make it.


Of course there is some truth to this, though perhaps is was more true in the 19th century than the 21st. However consider the corollary to the above; it isn't spoken but is equally engrained in the minds of Republicans or American who feel that they personally have "made it":
If you haven't made it in American it is evident proof that you are lazy or timid and are therefore unworthy of any consideration from those who have.

[GMichael]

The is notion that is tightly engrained in the American psyche:
America is the land of opportunity. Anyone how works hard and shows intiative can make it.


Of course there is some truth to this, though perhaps is was more true in the 19th century than the 21st. However consider the corollary to the above; it isn't spoken but is equally engrained in the minds of Republicans or American who feel that they personally have "made it":
If you haven't made it in American it is evident proof that you are lazy or timid and are therefore unworthy of any consideration from those who have.




Unless of coarse, you are actually lazy and unwilling to work, then we will take care of you. Only the lower middle class working their a$$'s off are put down.

[shokhead]

Well my daughter{23} is unable to work and can't get any help from the state or gov for drugs or doctor bills. She was told if she was having a baby or was non-citizen she would get at least state aid. So she suffers day in and day out. I can't help her.

[GMichael]

Must be because she is willing to work if she could. If she was faking it, then she could get all she wanted.

[basite]

Your car taxes are high for medium and large cars not just SUV"s Your fuel taxes are very high , your payroll taxes are very high. Taxes in your country is high period. The economic growth in your country is slow and has been slow for years. Unemployment in your country has been above average for years.
Most of cost of patrol in your country is due to taxes. Western European countries are suffering from high taxes , high unemployed , and slow growth.

Belgium is not a bad country , but like more Western European countries it suffers from to many government social programs , that is becoming harder and harder to fund.


'slow', but stable.

And car taxes here are high because of the reason I mentioned, the government dislikes medium sized and big cars. besides, why do we need them?

unemployment is 'higher' in the south side of belgium, the walloons are the ones without a job, here in Flanders, unemployment rates are low. Really low.

and as a matter of fact, Flanders, and belgium in general is making profits, so everything is possible to fund.

[melvin walker]

The is notion that is tightly engrained in the American psyche:
America is the land of opportunity. Anyone how works hard and shows intiative can make it.


Of course there is some truth to this, though perhaps is was more true in the 19th century than the 21st. However consider the corollary to the above; it isn't spoken but is equally engrained in the minds of Republicans or American who feel that they personally have "made it":
If you haven't made it in American it is evident proof that you are lazy or timid and are therefore unworthy of any consideration from those who have.



No American is denied medical care. All hospitals by law must provide health care to anyone that applies. There is a fund that American hospital must have reserved for the poor. Some Americans would prefer to not have limited hospital insurance , that would enable them to receive free health care.

It is a myth that Americans are denied health care.
It is true today any American that attends a public school payed for by American tax payers , studies , plans , graduates and makes the correct career decisions , will succeed in America

There are those that make poor career decisions , don't take advantage of educational opporuntunies, they fail. It is not the systems failure but the individuals failure.
The facts are if you don't make it in America , take a look in the morror first , than blame the system.
There are to many success stories in this great country, many immigrants came here that are succeeding today, eastern and western Europeans , Asians , Hispanics,
American Blacks are the richest , best educated and healthiest Blacks in the world !
Why because of opportunities afforded those who wanted to succeed. Are others any different ?

If a baboon attends public schools , studies , and plans his career well in America , you will have a successful baboon.

[Ajani]

No American is denied medical care. All hospitals by law must provide health care to anyone that applies. There is a fund that American hospital must have reserved for the poor. Some Americans would prefer to not have limited hospital insurance , that would enable them to receive free health care.

It is a myth that Americans are denied health care.
It is true today any American that attends a public school payed for by American tax payers , studies , plans , graduates and makes the correct career decisions , will succeed in America
There are those that make poor career decisions , don't take advantage of educational opporuntunies, they fail. It is not the systems failure but the individuals failure.
The facts are if you don't make it in America , take a look in the morror first , than blame the system.
There are to many success stories in this great country, many immigrants came here that are succeeding today, eastern and western Europeans , Asians , Hispanics,
American Blacks are the richest , best educated and healthiest Blacks in the world !Why because of opportunities afforded those who wanted to succeed. Are others any different ?

If a baboon attends public schools , studies , and plans his career well in America , you will have a successful baboon.

I almost took the bait...

I was actually going to write a detailed response to this post, but then I realized that anyone who really believes all the things you wrote (The one's I've highlighted) is not someone I can reason with...

[shokhead]

It is true today any American that attends a public school payed for by American tax payers , studies , plans , graduates and makes the correct career decisions , will succeed in America
There are those that make poor career decisions , don't take advantage of educational opporuntunies, they fail. It is not the systems failure but the individuals failure

And which part of that don't you get or is it always somebody's else fault?

[blackraven]

Hey Ajani, You missed the boat about my commnet about Clinton. I said I was amazed that he was elected president given the fact it he was known to commit adultry before he was elected. This would seem to make him untrust worthy in the public's eyes. But very little of his infidelity during the time he was the governor got out to the general public, but most people in Arkansas new about it. And of course, it did catch up with him with the whole Monica Lewinsky episode. Now he's not the first president to have an affair during his presidency, its just that he got caught!

[JohnMichael]

I can no longer read Melvin's mind numbing posts. If anything offensive is posted please use the report post feature.

[Ajani]

It is true today any American that attends a public school payed for by American tax payers , studies , plans , graduates and makes the correct career decisions , will succeed in America
There are those that make poor career decisions , don't take advantage of educational opporuntunies, they fail. It is not the systems failure but the individuals failure

And which part of that don't you get or is it always somebody's else fault?

I'm not the one speaking in extremes, Melvin is.... The world is not black and white...

It's not a case of either:

1) Everybody who fails is stupid and/or lazy - as Melvin believes

or

2) Everyone who fails did so because the system was unfair to them - I find that concept as ridiculous as option 1)


there is a third option, which I believe:

Some people fail because they are lazy/stupid, while others fail because the system failed them...

Not all Public schools are created equal... not all people get the same opportunity.... some fail because they don't try and some fail despite trying....

[Ajani]

Hey Ajani, You missed the boat about my commnet about Clinton. I said I was amazed that he was elected president given the fact it he was known to commit adultry before he was elected. This would seem to make him untrust worthy in the public's eyes. But very little of his infidelity during the time he was the governor got out to the general public, but most people in Arkansas new about it. And of course, it did catch up with him with the whole Monica Lewinsky episode. Now he's not the first president to have an affair during his presidency, its just that he got caught!

Oh, thanx for the clarification... I clearly misinterpreted your post... sorry about that...

I know people seem to expect their President to be someone with morals.... but I'm still not sure why a President's lovelife should be such a big deal.... Especially since so many people are convinced that President Kennedy was having an affair (and he was loved by the American People)... So it just baffles me...

[blackraven]

Ok, since we are talking about welfare,education and the such. On a weekly basis I see teenage girls that are sexually active and they don't use birth control. I always ask them, what are you going to do when you get pregnant and they respond-I'll just go on welfare.
This is partly whats wrong with this country.

I also love it when a woman comes to the ER with here 5 kids and all are from different fathers and the woman is 20-25 years of age. This happens several times a day on a daily basis. Of course she has no job and is on welfare. And some of these kids are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare children. This is just as big a problem as immigration.

This country probagates failure and welfare. Most of these welfare kids are doomed to failure and a life of welfare and poverty. And the viscious cycle goes on and on. Most of these kids will be poorly educated because they have no family support for education of good family morals. Many will be high school drop outs and dysfunctional people. In 100 years we will be a country of a large population of poor and uneducated people. And the people with jobs will be supporting them by paying 50% taxes and there will be no social security for people.

Now I'm not saying that there arent opportunities for these peolpe to better themselves, its just that they become part of a culture of people that are lazy, with low ambition and no respect for education, and poor social and moral values.

[Ajani]

Ok, since we are talking about welfare,education and the such. On a weekly basis I see teenage girls that are sexually active and they don't use birth control. I always ask them, what are you going to do when you get pregnant and they respond-I'll just go on welfare.
This is partly whats wrong with this country.

I also love it when a woman comes to the ER with here 5 kids and all are from different fathers and the woman is 20-25 years of age. This happens several times a day on a daily basis. Of course she has no job and is on welfare. And some of these kids are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare children. This is just as big a problem as immigration.

This country probagates failure and welfare. Most of these welfare kids are doomed to failure and a life of welfare and poverty. And the viscious cycle goes on and on. Most of these kids will be poorly educated because they have no family support for education of good family morals. Many will be high school drop outs and dysfunctional people. In 100 years we will be a country of a large population of poor and uneducated people. And the people with jobs will be supporting them by paying 50% taxes and there will be no social security for people.

Now I'm not saying that there arent opportunities for these peolpe to better themselves, its just that they become part of a culture of people that are lazy, with low ambition and no respect for education, and poor social and moral values.

Good points....

I'm not a believer in never-ending welfare... too much welfare creates a cycle of laziness... why work if I can get free handouts???

But, I think there has to be something to address the needs of those who really need the assistance....

I'm not sure exactly how US welfare is done, so If I make a wrong assumption I trust someone will correct me... That said, here goes:

Maybe in conjunction with welfare, there could be job placement... so any who registers and receives welfare is automatically registered for aid in seeking employment.... and people who repeatedly turn down job opportunities are denied further welfare benefits...

[markw]

This country probagates failure and welfare. Most of these welfare kids are doomed to failure and a life of welfare and poverty. And the viscious cycle goes on and on. Most of these kids will be poorly educated because they have no family support for education of good family morals. Many will be high school drop outs and dysfunctional people. In 100 years we will be a country of a large population of poor and uneducated people.I don't disagree with one word of your post, but these people have the right to reproduce indiscriminately. Why should they bother with birth control? ust because rubbers are practically given away, why shouldthgey bother? It takes the fun out of the spur of the moment pleasure. Just ask the ACLU or liberal America.

[sarcasm mode off.]

For the ultimate result of what you describe, rent the movie "Idiocracy". It's supposed to be a comedy.

My take? I say tie their tubes the second time it happens on our dime, and even that's a compromise on my part.

[E-Stat]

If you haven't made it in American it is evident proof that you are lazy or timid and are therefore unworthy of any consideration from those who have.
The difference between "making it" and not are almost always attributable to the amount of education one has. A very difficult challenge with the underclass, be they white, black, yellow, green, or purple is convincing folks to teach that to their young. Far too many youths think they can make it big in sports or music. They don't take the more realistic approach of seeking a career and making a plan to get there.

There is a segment of society who believes that jobs should simply be made available to them, requiring no effort on their part for preparation. Give me a job. My parents were not wealthy and neither one finished college. But I was reading at age 5 and did well in school. My three brothers and I attended college. I think the difference has everything to do with the seeds that are planted when we are children. I wanted to be an astronaut when I grew up! Since I was very nearsighted, I accepted the fact that wouldn't work. Instead, I went into computer science at a state university.

There have been many programs to promote education even to the extent of providing fully funded scholarships to fine universities. Many of these disadvantaged kids, however, were poorly prepared to face the challenges of the schooling because they never had applied themselves along the way. I blame that on their parents and a culture that failed to promote the secret to success. It saddens me to hear kids who say that being "smart" or working at school just isn't cool. For 99.9% of us, it's not playing basketball, becoming a rap or rock star and certainly not becoming a drug dealer.

rw

[blackraven]

There are job placement programs and some take advantage of it. But what do you do with the unwed mother who has 2-6 kids. Whos going to take care of the millions of kids. The jobs that are available for job placement programs are low paying. there is no incentive to work. And these people are coming from a culture where work is not in their vocabulary. Many cant read, spell or do simple math or even speak the english language properly.

Don't get me wrong. There is a time and place for welfare for people that actually need it.
There should also be a time limit for those that are just plain lazy and there should be a penalty for those that keep having more kids on welfare, because as it stands now, you get more money the more kids you have. I live in a state where welfare benefits are very high and people are flocking here from chicago to west ST. Paul. the drug use and crime has sky rocketed because of it. The number of gangs has also increased. With welfare people come all the other social problems of crime, drugs, gangs, teen pregnancy!

[JSE]

Hey Ajani, You missed the boat about my commnet about Clinton. I said I was amazed that he was elected president given the fact it he was known to commit adultry before he was elected. This would seem to make him untrust worthy in the public's eyes. But very little of his infidelity during the time he was the governor got out to the general public, but most people in Arkansas new about it. And of course, it did catch up with him with the whole Monica Lewinsky episode. Now he's not the first president to have an affair during his presidency, its just that he got caught!


And, there was the whole lying under oath about it that kind of made him look a little "untrustworthy". The Clintons are scum.

[E-Stat]

Maybe in conjunction with welfare, there could be job placement... so any who registers and receives welfare is automatically registered for aid in seeking employment.... and people who repeatedly turn down job opportunities are denied further welfare benefits...
Great idea, but fails in practice many times. I worked for the family restaurant supply distribution business for many years. While centrally located to facilitate the delivery trucks, it was in a housing project neighborhood. We would regularly get visits from guys who - get this - wanted us to fill out a form they were given to prove they came by and asked for a job. Their objective was never to get a job, but simply to prove none were available. On one occasion, when we told the guy we needed him right now - you're hired! - he simply asked if we would sign the form. Boy, was my father pissed and refused to sign it.

While that story is indeed anecdotal, it is not unique.

rw

[Ajani]

And, there was the whole lying under oath about it that kind of made him look a little "untrustworthy". The Clintons are scum.

For the most part, politicians generally seem to be scum.... I wonder how many other Presidents would have done the exact same thing, if they'd been backed in a corner...

They routinely lie to win campaigns, so it might just come naturally....

Though I think Bill is shady, I always got the impression that he genuinely cares for people and makes an effort to help them... even now his major project is providing aid to the poor (Clinton Foundation or something like that)....

[JSE]

I don't disagree with one word of your post, but these people have the right to reproduce indiscriminately. Why should they bother with birth control? ust because rubbers are practically given away, why shouldthgey bother? It takes the fun out of the spur of the moment pleasure. Just ask the ACLU or liberal America.

[sarcasm mode off.]

For the ultimate result of what you describe, rent the movie "Idiocracy". It's supposed to be a comedy.

My take? I say tie their tubes the second time it happens on our dime, and even that's a compromise on my part.


Well said!

And, I say tie'em off after the first time it happens. My wife and I are in our late 30's and we don't want kids and "somehow" we have managed to not have a child.

[JSE]

For the most part, politicians generally seem to be scum.... I wonder how many other Presidents would have done the exact same thing, if they'd been backed in a corner...

Backed into a corner? The corner of Truth? Give me a break.



Though I think Bill is shady, I always got the impression that he genuinely cares for people and makes an effort to help them... even now his major project is providing aid to the poor (Clinton Foundation or something like that)....

Again, give me a break. You don't think it's all a front for his wife's campaign and his own image?

The Clinton's are liars and crooks who are out for the own self interests. And by no means are they the only ones.

[shokhead]

In the bad part of town where i work we for a time would close the gates at the school i work at when the bell rang and you had to go to the front gate and you got a late pass. We did this for about 2weeks until one morning we had between 20-30 parents, mostly moms come into the office. At the end they said being late isn't important and we need to let them in the school when they are late and just go to class. The worst part is the office said ok.

[Ajani]

Backed into a corner? The corner of Truth? Give me a break. .


Yep, the corner of truth.... I still think most of the other lying, cheating politicians would have done the same.


Again, give me a break. You don't think it's all a front for his wife's campaign and his own image?.

It could be, though I think he was doing it long before his wife started campaigning, so it's more likely about his own image.... But, regardless I don't like to attack someone's charity work, since it could be legit and either way it still helps people... but that's just my personal philosphy


The Clinton's are liars and crooks who are out for the own self interests. And by no means are they the only ones.

Possibly, but I just don't see them as being worse than any other politicians....

[bobsticks]

"Norway, a nation of 4.6 million people, is the world's third-largest oil exporter, after Saudi Arabia."...

...Maybe the US should fly all our immigrants to Norway on a KLM 747. Norway's population would double in no time!

rw

Try quadruple, if not quintuple...

[bobsticks]

I remember a skit in which Dennis Miller said of Bill Clinton that he didn't disrespect him for smoking pot but, in fact, for lying about it..."it was the sixties for f%$^s sake, do you really want the geek who didn't hit the bong to have access to the launch codes..."

[melvin walker]

I'm not the one speaking in extremes, Melvin is.... The world is not black and white...

It's not a case of either:

1) Everybody who fails is stupid and/or lazy - as Melvin believes

or

2) Everyone who fails did so because the system was unfair to them - I find that concept as ridiculous as option 1)


there is a third option, which I believe:

Some people fail because they are lazy/stupid, while others fail because the system failed them...

Not all Public schools are created equal... not all people get the same opportunity.... some fail because they don't try and some fail despite trying....

I never wrote that " Everybody that fails is stupid and / lazy "
Public education ,is good or bad based on community involvement. Example; The St.Louis Public schools are so poor that the state was forced to remove local control and administer the schools from the state level.

The St.Louis parental involvement in P.T.A and P.T.O in St.Louis is less than 15% !
The better surbuban schools has a parental involvement in P.T.A. and P.T.O of over
80 % !.


Your second point again I never wrote. Read my post , don't interpret them. Than post I wrote what you interpreted.
My question is , public schools in America is payed for by the taxpayer, an education is essential , there many poor American that take advantage of America public schools and move into the middle class. There are others who don't. Those who don't suffer the consequences. What is it you disagree with in that statement ?

[melvin walker]

'slow', but stable.

And car taxes here are high because of the reason I mentioned, the government dislikes medium sized and big cars. besides, why do we need them?

unemployment is 'higher' in the south side of belgium, the walloons are the ones without a job, here in Flanders, unemployment rates are low. Really low.

and as a matter of fact, Flanders, and belgium in general is making profits, so everything is possible to fund.

The government of Belgium as in many European countries taxes cars that get poor gas mileage. Belgium imports all it's oil. Who needs them ? Those who enjoys large and powerful cars.

Not to pick on Belgium , but western Europe in general is suffering from high unemployment , slow growth and expensive social programs. Which produce high taxes !
The United States has been able have a healthy growth rate , and low unemployment due to much lower tax rates.
As for as gas guzzler cars , We are a large country, you can drive across Belgium in one day . it takes longer than that to drive across Texas. America thinks big . is big.

I agree we should tax those who buy large gas guzzling cars , I don't' agree we should have a social system that resembles western Europeans.

[melvin walker]

I can't comment on the level of healthcare received by "all Americans".... but I suspect it must be insuficient for many... or else universal healthcare would be a non-issue....

Should only those able to afford it get good healthcare and those unable to do so, be stuck without it....

Imagine someone who starts out very poor, but is smart... pays attention in school, goes to college, and before he can begin working manifests a serious illness and needs expensive medical care.... should he not receive it because he wasn't able to "hold off" becoming ill untill he was employed (and able to get health insurance from his job)?

As I said, the issue really is a tough one...

And as for higher taxes... I think the issue is often whether the taxes are being properly utilized.... I'm not in favor of more taxes, but I suspect that there are better ways to use some of the country's money...

That someone you are referring to would receive free health care. We are a republic ,if anyone feels that taxes are not being utilized incorrectly in their opinion than there is the vote.

NO AMERICAN IS DENIED HEALTHCARE IN AMERICA !! Again the poor Medcaid , the elderly Medicare , those with limited health insurance are still given health care !
What else is there to say.
There are those in Europe who receive different health care because of wealth.
No different than in America.

[mlsstl]

Melvin, if you are going to complain about the St. Louis Public Schools, you really need to work on your own spelling and grammar. You have a severe case of the pot calling the kettle black right now.

Sure, everyone makes mistakes and spelling and grammar are not the sole indicators of literacy, but there comes a moment at which errors in those areas substantially detract from whatever point you're attempting to make. You're well past that point, and consistently so.

Two suggestions for you. If you're not using Firefox as your browser, consider it. It has a built-in spell checker. Second, use the "preview" screen before you post. You might catch a few more of your own mistakes before they are up for the world to see.

[basite]

I don't' agree we should have a social system that resembles western Europeans.


It's a choice. We choose that when something happens, we fall back on the social system and live on. You choose to go broke once you break your leg.


unemployment rates aren't exessively high, in fact, globally seen, we're doing pretty good. On wikipedia, there is a map, with unemployment rates, made with numbers from the CIA, and we fall directly under the same category as the USA.

and btw, The USA is showing strong signs of an upcoming recession, I wouldn't call that a nice economic growth.

and I agree that people who have to cross the usa regulary need bigger cars, but there's also a vast amount of people who only use their cars to go into town and back to their home in the suburbs. You don't need a 6 litre chevy for that.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[audio amateur]

Unemployment varies alot within western European countries. Same for government debts, same for economics growth, aka GNP.

[melvin walker]

Melvin, if you are going to complain about the St. Louis Public Schools, you really need to work on your own spelling and grammar. You have a severe case of the pot calling the kettle black right now.

Sure, everyone makes mistakes and spelling and grammar are not the sole indicators of literacy, but there comes a moment at which errors in those areas substantially detract from whatever point you're attempting to make. You're well past that point, and consistently so.

Two suggestions for you. If you're not using Firefox as your browser, consider it. It has a built-in spell checker. Second, use the "preview" screen before you post. You might catch a few more of your own mistakes before they are up for the world to see.
List the words that are spelled incorrectly. Do you have a degree in English ?

[melvin walker]

Unemployment varies alot within western European countries. Same for government debts, same for economics growth, aka GNP.
The United States GNP is greater than Japan and The European union combined.
Unemployment in America is one of the lowest in the industrial world. American growth has consistently out performed most members of the European Union.

[Ajani]

I never wrote that " Everybody that fails is stupid and / lazy "
Public education ,is good or bad based on community involvement. Example; The St.Louis Public schools are so poor that the state was forced to remove local control and administer the schools from the state level.

The St.Louis parental involvement in P.T.A and P.T.O in St.Louis is less than 15% !
The better surbuban schools has a parental involvement in P.T.A. and P.T.O of over
80 % !.

+


It is true today any American that attends a public school payed for by American tax payers , studies , plans , graduates and makes the correct career decisions , will succeed in America
There are those that make poor career decisions , don't take advantage of educational opporuntunies, they fail. It is not the systems failure but the individuals failure.
The facts are if you don't make it in America , take a look in the morror first , than blame the system.There are to many success stories in this great country, many immigrants came here that are succeeding today, eastern and western Europeans , Asians , Hispanics,
American Blacks are the richest , best educated and healthiest Blacks in the world !Why because of opportunities afforded those who wanted to succeed. Are others any different ?

If a baboon attends public schools , studies , and plans his career well in America , you will have a successful baboon.

= ????

So if a Baboon attended that school in St. louis, he wouldn't be sucessful?



Your second point again I never wrote. Read my post , don't interpret them. Than post I wrote what you interpreted.
My question is , public schools in America is payed for by the taxpayer, an education is essential , there many poor American that take advantage of America public schools and move into the middle class. There are others who don't. Those who don't suffer the consequences. What is it you disagree with in that statement ?

I never said you wrote my 2nd point. Read my posts. Don't just interpret them and post that I wrote what you interpreted.

And for the record; you are probably the best troll this site has ever had.... I just said I wouldn't respond to you in a previous post and here I am unable to resist the bait... Even Spanky isn't this good.... Congratulations!!!!

[Ajani]

List the words that are spelled incorrectly. Do you have a degree in English ?

You rely too heavily on Spell-check. Your spelling is fine, but your grammar is atrocious.

EDIT: Spell-check will not recognize if you use:

"are" instead of "or"
"than" instead of "then"

etc....

[audio amateur]

The United States GNP is greater than Japan and The European union combined.

That's actually correct, I'm amazed!

[melvin walker]

It's a choice. We choose that when something happens, we fall back on the social system and live on. You choose to go broke once you break your leg.


unemployment rates aren't exessively high, in fact, globally seen, we're doing pretty good. On wikipedia, there is a map, with unemployment rates, made with numbers from the CIA, and we fall directly under the same category as the USA.

and btw, The USA is showing strong signs of an upcoming recession, I wouldn't call that a nice economic growth.

and I agree that people who have to cross the usa regulary need bigger cars, but there's also a vast amount of people who only use their cars to go into town and back to their home in the suburbs. You don't need a 6 litre chevy for that.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

In America some of us buy 6 litre cars because we desire them. I drive a 5 litre car that gets 10 miles per gallon in the city and 18 miles a gallon on the highway. In America we have those choices would you want to change that ? Some of us have large homes ,
that use a lot of fuel to heat and cool. Would you change that ? Than there are lawnmowers , freezers , and power consuming audio equipment. Would you wish to eliminate that also?

If American stopped being the best consumer market in the world than what do you think would happen to other countries who depend on the American consumers ?
It's the American way. Most of us could live in apartments as most Europeans do. Drive 2 litre cars as most Europeans do and drink warm beer not cold beer as Europeans do. Is that what you want for America ?
If so than vote and work for change.

[audio amateur]

drink warm beer not cold beer as Europeans do?
LOL. We don't drink warm beer:)

[melvin walker]

You rely too heavily on Spell-check. Your spelling is fine, but your grammar is atrocious.

EDIT: Spell-check will not recognize if you use:

"are" instead of "or"
"than" instead of "then"

etc....
When I was on radio I found that the misuse of grammar was necessary due to the lack of proper grammar used by my listening audience. I might add that writing is not one of my strengths . I apologize for my poor grammar.
I will in the future edit my post.

[E-Stat]

List the words that are spelled incorrectly.
surbuban=suburban
payed=paid

You might be happier if you lightened up a bit. Just my opinion.

rw

[markw]

List the words that are spelled incorrectly.Well, for starters, how about "transmission turrntable"?

Granted, when used individually both words are spelled correctly, but when used in the combination you propose, they make no fargin' sense at all. ergo, you blew it.

And, one doesn't need a degree in english to critique your spelling and grammar.

Are you smarter than a fifth grader?

[markw]

When I was on radio I found that the misuse of grammar was necessary due to the lack of proper grammar used by my listening audience. I might add that writing is not one of my strengths . I apologize for my poor grammar.
I will in the future edit my post.So, as long as you didn't write anything down your ignorance of the English language wasn't an issue?

From the look of your posts here, your sentence construction isn't to strong either, and that can't be hidden by working only with the spoken word.

And, before you get a hard-on, I ran out of room in the subject line so "working" got truncated.

[basite]

In America some of us buy 6 litre cars because we desire them. I drive a 5 litre car that gets 10 miles per gallon in the city and 18 miles a gallon on the highway. In America we have those choices would you want to change that ? Some of us have large homes ,
that use a lot of fuel to heat and cool. Would you change that ? Than there are lawnmowers , freezers , and power consuming audio equipment. Would you wish to eliminate that also?

If American stopped being the best consumer market in the world than what do you think would happen to other countries who depend on the American consumers ?
It's the American way. Most of us could live in apartments as most Europeans do. Drive 2 litre cars as most Europeans do and drink warm beer not cold beer as Europeans do. Is that what you want for America ?
If so than vote and work for change.


I won't stop you from buying a big car, especially not in the USA, where you could actually use it, all big cars do here is take up space IMO, but do you think we all drive a smart? And we don't all live in small houses here too you know, most of us live in houses, not in appartements, and our beer is cold, and good...

Perhaps you should actually visit Europe before saying we are wrong and you are right.

and you are the best consumer market in the world? yes, that's actually true. It does have a downside too you know. They calculated this a while back, if we all consumed like americans, we would need 3 'earths', just to accumulate for the need of the people. I agree that there are things you need to be able to enjoy, albeit cars, or anything else.


and let me give you the quick and only explanation why some of us drive 2 litre cars, anything we need to 'survive' is within one mile away from our home, grocery store, bakery, butchery, apothecary, post office, also the doctor, ...
you don't even need a car, well, we do use it, because driving trough the rain on your bike is not as fun.
Then, the nearest town (Antwerp, look that up if you don't know where that is, and I presume not, seeing your interpretation of people in europe), is about 30 minutes away on public transport, which actually is faster than going with the car. When we do need the car, we use that, but still, it ain't a huge distance (about 10 km).
We need the car to go to other cities, such as Ghent, or Brussels, or Leuven, or elsewhere, or when we go on holiday (when we're not going by plane).

Got my point? I know you americans all need big cars, the distances you have to travel are immense compared to what we have to travel on a day. And I agree everyone has the right to have whatever car they want, but here you'll have to pay for it, just as in the USA, where a car that consumes more, is something people pay more taxes for. Here those taxes are just slightly higher, get over it.

We have those choices too, nothing in the world prevents us from buying what we want.

stop thinking you're the only free country in the world.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[mlsstl]

Nope, I'm not an English major. I just had ordinary public school training. (There's also a college degree but they didn't spend any time on spelling, grammar or punctuation. It was assumed you already possessed those skills.)

So, you want some Melvin Walker spelling/grammar errors? These are from just the last two pages of this one thread.



Most of cost of patrol (presume you meant "petrol")

...it suffers from to many government social programs , that is becoming harder and harder to fund. (should be "too many" and "that are")

All American receive (plurality error)

An American worker and a German worker earn about the same the differences is the American keeps most of his salary. Those luxury cars built in Germany is shipped to America. (severe punctuation problems, plurality error.)

Your second point again I never wrote. Read my post , don't interpret them. Than post I wrote what you interpreted. ( Whew! Hard to know where to begin on this one.)

My question is , public schools in America is payed for by the taxpayer, an education is essential , (Perhaps you meant "paid"? Overall, very odd construction.)

When I was on radio I found that the misuse of grammar was necessary due to the lack of proper grammar used by my listening audience. (See comment below.)


I love that last line. Were radio listeners calling station management to complain about your correct grammar? Were you instructed to speak poorly? Fascinating!

In short, every single time a message appears from you, the post is full of spelling errors ("are" instead of "or" is common, though I guess one could debate that the wrong word spelled correctly is not a spelling error), grammatical errors, poor syntax, and extremely odd punctuation. As noted before, these severely detract from whatever point you're attempting to make.

If you can't spot your errors even in retrospect, then your own education has failed you in this area. A book I've found helpful for my writing is "Line By Line - How To Improve Your Own Writing" by Claire Kehrwald Cook.

[Groundbeef]

A book I've found helpful for my writing is "Line By Line - How To Improve Your Own Writing" by Claire Kehrwald Cook.

Unless that book was written in 1950, I doubt Melvin would give it the time of day. Also, I sure hope it's leather bound, as only the low class would consider picking up a book that is a paperback.

[audio amateur]

Unless that book was written in 1950, I doubt Melvin would give it the time of day. Also, I sure hope it's leather bound, as only the low class would consider picking up a book that is a paperback.
I'm always cracked up by these comments. Thanks for making my day better

[Rich-n-Texas]

Beefy's a funny guy isn't he? :biggrin5:

[shokhead]

I never wrote that " Everybody that fails is stupid and / lazy "
Public education ,is good or bad based on community involvement. Example; The St.Louis Public schools are so poor that the state was forced to remove local control and administer the schools from the state level.

The St.Louis parental involvement in P.T.A and P.T.O in St.Louis is less than 15% !
The better surbuban schools has a parental involvement in P.T.A. and P.T.O of over
80 % !.


Your second point again I never wrote. Read my post , don't interpret them. Than post I wrote what you interpreted.
My question is , public schools in America is payed for by the taxpayer, an education is essential , there many poor American that take advantage of America public schools and move into the middle class. There are others who don't. Those who don't suffer the consequences. What is it you disagree with in that statement ?

community involvement

That would be parents.

consequences.

That would be welfare.

[mlsstl]

Unless that book was written in 1950, I doubt Melvin would give it the time of day.
I owe the forum an apology. The book was written in 1985, and worse, it was published by the "Modern Language Association." Foolish me - the book is completely unsuitable for the use suggested. Mea culpa.

[Groundbeef]

I owe the forum an apology. The book was written in 1985, and worse, it was published by the "Modern Language Association." Foolish me - the book is completely unsuitable for the use suggested. Mea culpa.

Against my better judgement I have given you a "greenie" for TRYING to help. Although you are only acerbating the situation and causing untold grief and misery for Mr. Walker, your feeble attempt at help is appreciated.

If you want to check your "greenie" count, click on the tag "User CP" on the upper left.

If you ever want to leave "greenies" or "reddies", click the small antenne thingie in the post you either enjoy or loath. Word of caution, the "greenie" gun is prone to blockage. You must spread the love, less it will fail you. As you can see, Mr. Walker is squarly in the "red" catagory.

[KUNK]

I'm sorry, is this a dating site...I thought this was an audio site...why don't you guys go and get a room somewhere...just kiddin...really, i like greenies...what's a greenie?

[basite]

what's a greenie?

reputation points,
see that green square thingy under your name/location... on the left? that's your reputation.

if you go to the user CP, you can see how much reputation points you have.
if it turns red, it means you're doing bad.

you can give rep points by clicking the weighing scale below, and then choose if you approve (a greenie), or dissaprove (a red chicklet), with the chosen post...

Don't go wild though...

Keep them spinning,
and oh, Welcome to AR :)

Bert.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah. And since you're a n00b, we can quickly turn your greenie to a red one. :ihih:

And...

Welcome to Happy Acres!!! :biggrin5:

[Feanor]

Yeah. And since you're a n00b, we can quickly turn your greenie to a red one. :ihih:

And...

Welcome to Happy Acres!!! :biggrin5:

In this whole thread (so far), despite spitting on the cherished beliefs of number of people, I've got no red ones. :confused5: (Or green for that matter.)
:16:

[melvin walker]

Well, for starters, how about "transmission turrntable"?

Granted, when used individually both words are spelled correctly, but when used in the combination you propose, they make no fargin' sense at all. ergo, you blew it.

And, one doesn't need a degree in english to critique your spelling and grammar.

Are you smarter than a fifth grader?

You may correct my grammar , but I have taken a look at your audio system . You are not an audiophile !
Your audio system is rather inexpensive. It appears your interest is video not audio.
You would be a better fit for a video forum.

English may be one of your strengths , but spelling is not , why not also use spell check.
Please make some Improvements on that mediocre audio system !

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah Mark, you need to spend more money on old AUDIO components. Your stereo is a big weenie. :lol:

[melvin walker]

Unless that book was written in 1950, I doubt Melvin would give it the time of day. Also, I sure hope it's leather bound, as only the low class would consider picking up a book that is a paperback.

I have taken a look at your audio system as well. You didn't break the bank putting it together.
You also would not be classified as an audiophile.
Why not invest a few American dollars and upgrade. Are there any audiophiles around ??
It appears you wish to discuss audio but is reluctant to get seriously involved in audio by spending a little money !

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah beefy, you need to spend more money on old AUDIO components. Your stereo is a big weenie! :lol:

[melvin walker]

Yeah. And since you're a n00b, we can quickly turn your greenie to a red one. :ihih:

And...

Welcome to Happy Acres!!! :biggrin5:

Your audio system , CHEAP , CHEAP , CHEAP , . When are you going to invest in some decent audio equipment ?
WHERE ARE THE AUDIOPHILES ????
All I see presented on this site is low - fi !
Receivers you are kidding me aren't you ?

[markw]

You may correct my grammar , but I have taken a look at your audio system . You are not an audiophile !Maybe not, but it sure produces a realistic representation of the music I listen to. And this opinion is shared by a lot of professional and amateur musicians and vocalists.

And, I don't think I've ever seriously considered myself an audiophile. Most of us don't.


Your audio system is rather inexpensive. It appears your interest is video not audio.
You would be a better fit for a video forum.Really? I'm doing a heckuva lot better here than you are and, odds are I'll be here long after you're gone. Smell that tar heating up and see that guy with the bagful of feathers? Oh look, here come the men with the rail.


English may be one of your strengths , but spelling is not , why not also use spell check....and this from a man who can't differentiate between "or" and "are" or "transmission" and "transcription"?

Now, I don't care who you are, that's funny!


Please make some Improvements on that mediocre audio system !Right, mel. I'll jump right on it. Gotta get it up to your standards so you think better of me, ya know. You just worry about getting it up...

Seriously, even by your standards this is a bizarre post.

You're really grasping at straws, aren't ya?

[markw]

Yeah Mark, you need to spend more money on old AUDIO components. Your stereo is a big weenie. :lol:Well, I guess ol' mel is an expert on weenies. ;)

apparantly, none of us are qualified to be offering advice here. ..and I kan't spell, eethur.

How long do you figure before he goes super nova and is shown the door?

[melvin walker]

Against my better judgement I have given you a "greenie" for TRYING to help. Although you are only acerbating the situation and causing untold grief and misery for Mr. Walker, your feeble attempt at help is appreciated.

If you want to check your "greenie" count, click on the tag "User CP" on the upper left.

If you ever want to leave "greenies" or "reddies", click the small antenne thingie in the post you either enjoy or loath. Word of caution, the "greenie" gun is prone to blockage. You must spread the love, less it will fail you. As you can see, Mr. Walker is squarly in the "red" catagory.

You own a Pioneer receiver , Why would you use a Pioneer receiver ? I gather you are not an audiophile. I am afraid to ask what types of JBL speakers you own.
IS THERE ANYONE ON THIS SITE THAT IS AN AUDIOPHILE ?
Please respond !