Cambridge 840c Initial Impressions

[blackraven]

Well, my 840c arrived earlier today after exchanging the 740c for it. I have about 4 hours of playing time so far. My initial impressions are that this cdp was worth every penny and then some. It is very detailed with great resolution and transparency. I can not detect any graininess or jitter. I can close my eyes and pick out the position of each instrument playing. Treble and cymbals sound fantastic. Bass is excellent and very tight sounding with out any boom or muddiness. The music has more of a natural live sound. Even my wife and kids notice the difference. In this respect the 740c was similar but the 840c has a slightly warmer sound with even more detail and resolution, slightly deeper bass and clearer treble. Other reviews say it takes about 200 hours of playing time for this CDP to come into its own, so I will update reviews at 50, 100 and 200hrs. The 740c that I had sounded much better after 50hrs on it. I think that the extra $400 is worth the improvement in sound and I'm saying this with only listening to the 840c with unbalanced IC's. It;s supposed to sound better with its XLR connections.

One last note, when I had the 740c and marantz SA8001 side by side the 740c sounded much better in standard CD than the Marantz but the marantz sounded better in SACD.
I think that the 840c comes close to the marantz's 2ch SACD sound but with tighter bass and better detail. I wish I had all three here to compare them directly as audio memory is unreliable.

Larry

I forgot to mention, the 840c is solidly built and almost 5lb's heavier than the 740c, weighing in at 18.7lbs It has an all metal chassis. The transport is smoother and more quiet.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Well, my 840c arrived earlier today after exchanging the 740c for it. I have about 4 hours of playing time so far. My initial impressions are that this cdp was worth every penny and then some. It is very detailed with great resolution and transparency. I can not detect any graininess or jitter. I can close my eyes and pick out the position of each instrument playing. Treble and cymbals sound fantastic. Bass is excellent and very tight sounding with out any boom or muddiness. The music has more of a natural live sound. Even my wife and kids notice the difference. In this respect the 740c was similar but the 840c has a slightly warmer sound with even more detail and resolution, slightly deeper bass and clearer treble. Other reviews say it takes about 200 hours of playing time for this CDP to come into its own, so I will update reviews at 50, 100 and 200hrs. The 740c that I had sounded much better after 50hrs on it. I think that the extra $400 is worth the improvement in sound and I'm saying this with only listening to the 840c with unbalanced IC's. It;s supposed to sound better with its XLR connections.

One last note, when I had the 740c and marantz SA8001 side by side the 740c sounded much better in standard CD than the Marantz but the marantz sounded better in SACD.
I think that the 840c comes close to the marantz's 2ch SACD sound but with tighter bass and better detail. I wish I had all three here to compare them directly as audio memory is unreliable.

Larry

Looks like you made the right choice and that's not always an easy thing to do. You go out and audition gear and hope when you get it home that it sounds as good at home as it did in the store. Robert Harley of "The Absolute Sound" called the 840c "The best he's heard under 5K" That's pretty high praise in my book. Congrats.

[ldgibson76]

Hello "blackraven"!

Congrats on the new 840C! Thank you for the update. I'm still trying to decide which way to go, 740 or 840. I'm using part of my tax refund for the purchase. My problem in deciding which one to pick comes down to the advantage the 840 would have over the 740 outside of the XLR connection. My receiver lacks XLR connectivity, therefore it would literally come down to SQ via coaxial digital and analog connection. Is the extra cost justified? That extra $400.00 could go towards CD's or cable upgrades. If money were no object, and for me, it is!, then I would tell anyone without reservation, go with the 840C. But, it's a tough economy, hence the tax refund contribution, so value is very important. That being said, do you think there could be a possibility of diminishing returns with the purchase of the 840C. Please check out my equipment listing in my userCP. (And if you view the images of the system, try not to laugh. There's a lot going on for no apparent reason.) Why I ask is because, any system is as good as it's weakess part. If my system does not allow for me to hear a difference, why spend the money? Unless I was planning on a complete upgrade across the board, and that ain't happening for a long while! Now the big question, how does it compare to the modded Music Hall CD25 CDP?!

Regards!

[Feanor]

I'm staying tuned. (You're making me envious, though.) :o

[ldgibson76]

Hello again "blackaven".

After checking out the specifications of both players, there seem to be only 3 differences in the CDPs.
1) XLR outputs > 840C
2) RS232 connection > 840C
3) Twin Analog Devices AD1955 DACs > 840C
Twin Wolfson WM8740 DAC's > 740C
We pretty much know that the XLR is a biggie and most likely improves overall performance.
The RS232 guess would be for multi-room connectivity, so the brochure says.
I guess on an even playing field, the difference in DAC's, depending on who you are and your ability to recognize SQ differences, is the virtue here. What do you think?!

[blackraven]

Here's the deal with the 840c over the 740c. The sound is close but there is a definite improvement in bass and treble clarity. Its a small but noticable improvement. The 840c also sounds a little warmer to me and I think thats because of the improvement in bass. And thats with the 840c not even being close to being broken in.
Now I dont have the 740c any more so I cant compare the 2 directly now, but to my ears and my family's the 840c sound better. As to your question is it worth the upgrade, If you have the money it is. If its not in the budget, I don't think you will be missing out on much except the XLR connection that you might be able to use in the future if you ever upgrade your amp. I purchased the 840c because I plan on upgrading to an amp with XLR connections.

Now with that being said, I've read an article where a professional reviewer stated that he could not hear the difference between the balanced and unbalanced sound in the 840c. Another reviewer said it had a punchier sound and the dynamic range seemd to open up.
I also called both spearit sound stores in boston and asked if there was a noticable difference in the unbalnced sound of the 840c and the 740c and one guy said he could not hear the difference and he recommended going with the 740 if you did not have XLR. The guy at the other store felt that there was still a difference between the 2 units with out the XLR to go with the 840. Go figure! To complicate the matter, I emailed Cambridge Audio directly and asked them which one to get if I did not have XLR. They recommended going with the 740c but that every one hear's differently and it was a personal decision on which one to get. There was also one review I found a while back comparing the sound of the 2 players and they gave better marks for the 840c.

Looking at your equipment, I think you would benefit from the 840c's slight warmer sound to go with your Klipsch speakers.. I'd much rather have the 840c than spend the money saved on cables. It looks like you have good cables and besides, cables are cheaper to buy than a new CDP. All the reviews on the 840 call it the one of the best CDP's under $5,000 for a reason.

Look at my thread on some interesting web reviews on the 840c, I think those say it all.

I hope this helps some. And I will update on how the 840 sounds as it is breaking in. As far as the Modded MusicHall. The MusicHall now has a warm and foward sound. I find it great for Rock music but I prefer a more transparent sound for Jazz, Blue's and Classical. I'm going to put the original op amps back in it to push back the sound like it used to be. I modded it to get rid of the jitter and digital glare which the new clock did. But the upgraded Burr-Brown opamps dramatically changed the sound.

One last thing. If your looking for a very musical CD player then I'd go with the Rega Apollo for that. The virtue's of this player are that it has a neutral to slightly warm sound, excellent bass and treble with very good detail, resolution and transparency.

Larry

[ldgibson76]

Hello "BR".

Thanks for the detailed response. I do know that I will eventually upgrade my speakers to the B&W 800 series to go with my new CDP purchase. That will have a huge impact on sound quality, not to mention that I'm also looking at pre-owned multi-channel amps on eBay and Audiogon. After reading your response, I thought to myself that if I'm going to do this Audio thing, I should try to do it as right as my income will allow. With that said, I will most likely go with the 840C. And understand, although I do not know you, I do value your opinion when it comes to your experience with the CA CDP's. Yes, I can read reviews and speak with sales reps at various retailers, but in my opinion, you are closer to real world than any of the reviewers or retail reps. Don't get me wrong, I value their input, but like me, you're an average Joe with an appreciation for good sounding music and no agenda other than to try to create the best music environment you can with what you have. So again, thank you for the knowledge and I will let you know once I get my 840C, B&W speakers and multi-channel amp how it works out!

Regards!

[blackraven]

Thanks! I think your making the right decison with the 840c. I went through the same process on whether to go with the 740c, 840c and Marantz SA8001 SACDP. All three are excellent players but the 840c came out on top with the slightly better sound, XLR and better DAC's. I hope you like the 840c. its always a crap shoot when you cant audition them. I bought mine from www.wildwestelcetronics.com They have a 30day return policy, so you might want to consider buying from them so you can return it if you dont care for the sound. They gave me no hassle when I exchanged the 740c for the 840. They just got a shipment in this week and they sell out fast. They offer free shipping too.

[blackraven]

Here's an update on the 840c. I have about 60hrs of burn in on the unit and the sound has gotten better. When I first got the unit I noticed it was a little fatiguing to listen to for more than an hour at a time. The sound has smoothed out and the detail and resolution of the treble has improved slightly. I do find that the midrange is more transparent and pushed back compared to the 740c.

I found it interesting to note that on the inside lid of the box that the 840c came in, it said "for best sound please allow 36 hours of continuous play". So I don't think it really needs 200 hours of playing time to break in. I left mine in continuous play for 36 hours and it sounds great.

[bobsticks]

Congrats raven. It appears as though the 840 has to be taken seriously at this pricepoint.

[O'Shag]

Robert Harley thinks very highly of the 840c. If memory serves, in the review he reckons its the best he's heard under $5000. It certainly competes with some of the best.

[blackraven]

Its all a matter of personal taste. I've heard better sounding CDP's but they were all over $4K. The best that I've heard was a $10K Ayre CDP. But if you like a more neutral transparent sound with exellent treble and tight bass then its a great player. I've read some negative user reviews on the 840 because that type of sound did not appeal to them. Some people feel it is a little thin on the midrange, but that has to do with the transparency of the CDP.

I'll give another update at 150hrs.

[audio amateur]

i'm jealous..

[Mr Peabody]

A couple things, first, Larry do you realize you now have it in writing that you heard a difference in CD players :)

ldgibson, there are a couple things I picked up on in your comments that I'd like to clarify and may be unnecessarily. Though the 840 may have a better transport than your current digital playback units there will be negligible difference between them using a digital output. Using a digital output will always have your receivers DAC's doing the decoding and therefore will always be similar in sound. XLR outputs are just a gimmick if the circuitry inside the unit is not a truly balanced design. and, even if it was truly balanced, you'd need your pre/power amp to be truly balanced to get the full potential. My Krell gear was balanced, the balanced outputs give a 6dB signal gain. I really couldn't tell much difference between XLR and RCA, I actually found my preference was more cable orientated. XLR was my favorite using Transparent XLR cables until I tried a pair of RCA's built by a friend. They had silver conductors. These cables conveyed the best sound I ever heard from my Krell equipment. The differences between the 740 and 840 will not and can not be determined by paper. Any differences in sound will be upgrades in how the signal is treated after being converted to analog and better analog circuits/outputs. In looking at the 840c it seems according to the grounding technique used that it is indeed fully balanced. Both units have the ATF and upsample.

I suspect the 840 is a decent player and maybe even a "giant killer" but best under $5k has got to be an exaggeration and one of the reasons I can't stand audio magazine reviews. Of course, they have opinions and it is all subjective but think about all the great players under $5k that the 840 would have to beat, please, give me a break. I would like to put one in my system though to see what it is capable of. Reviewers do have a cherry job.

[blackraven]

Mr. P, I've used to think that there was no difference in CDP's until I got into higher end audio and started cruising the Audiophile shops. There is not doubt a difference in CDP's
sound. Depending upon the model, some differences are sublte and some are dramatic.

The XLR's on the Cambridge unit are true balanced. I'm not sure if there is a difference in sound or not but The guys at spirit sound said there was and so did a professional reviewer. There was one reviewer who said he could not tell the difference.

I agree, you have to take pro-reviews with a grain of salt. Although they give just about every product a decent review (and you almost never see a poor review) and many a great review, I've got to figure that if its getting a great review vs a decent review that it has to be a good product. Average reviews I'm always suspicious of. With that being said, I have to say that I've only heard 3 players under $4K but over 1k and the 840c sounded as good if not better than them in transparency and treble. Thats not to say that the other players didn't have some attributes that I like better.

[ldgibson76]

Hello Mr.Peabody!

Thank you for your words of wisdom. Just when I think I'm approaching audio/video satisfaction, a "hi-end elitist" (Your equipment listing gives you away!) somehow finds a way to bring me back to reality! (smile)
So correct me if 'm wrong, what you're trying to say is that Value is a state of mind. With what I currently own, the purchase of the 840 instead of the 740 would render diminishing returns, unless I also upgraded to a XLR capable pre/pro and multi-channel amplifier. Especially using RCA and/or coaxial digital connection, the chances of me really hearing a difference between the 840 and 740 that would justify paying $400 more would be almost bordering minimal. The upsampling ability of the 740 is justification enough to upgrade from the 640C. Although I recently decided to go with the 840, I digress. The 740C is an excellent value. I'll put the $400 savings toward the multi-channel amp.
Again, thanks for the input. I'm flattered that you would comment on my dilemma.

Regards.

[nightflier]

Its all a matter of personal taste. I've heard better sounding CDP's but they were all over $4K. The best that I've heard was a $10K Ayre CDP. But if you like a more neutral transparent sound with exellent treble and tight bass then its a great player. I've read some negative user reviews on the 840 because that type of sound did not appeal to them. Some people feel it is a little thin on the midrange, but that has to do with the transparency of the CDP.

I'll give another update at 150hrs.

I almost bought the player last year and since I like to do a lot of research before settling down to review the units that
on paper at least seem the top contenders, I was dissuaded from a number of negative reviews. There are several reviews out there that refer to the player as underwhelming and not very exciting. This sounds to be the opposite of what you're describing. Maybe this is that recessed midrange, that you refer to?

You also mentioned that you were going straight into your amp with it. I didn't think the player had volume-controlled outputs. If so, these would attenuate the sound, so is there an audible degradation at lower volumes?

Finally, what about using a lower-priced unit as a transport and adding a much higher quality DAC? I know that may push the price up, but in that case I would probably purchase the DAC second hand. Had you considered an external DAC as an option?

I'm not trying to be contrarian, here, but I'm starting to feel like I really should have bought the player when I had the chance. Needless to say, I'm very interested in your experience with this player. Keep us posted.

[blackraven]

I'm not going straight into my amp. My adcom receiver is my amp, I guess I should have said receiver.
And there is a real difference in sound between the 740c and 840c. I heard it, my family heard it as well. The differences were sublte but they were there. There was betted detail and resolution and the sound as a little more transparent. Now is this worth the extra $400? To me it was, especially since I could afford it. If I was on a very tight budget than maybe not. But I also did not want to be wondering if I made a mistake by not going with the 840c because of an extra $400 which is not alot when your talking about audiophile equipment.

I can see why some people would not like the sound of the 840c. Its very neutral and does not add any thing to the music like cheaper players do. The transparency is also an issue. You either like a transparent sound or you don't. I prefer this sound and appreciate that cymbals and treble sound natural.

People will always have their preferences. Every body hears something different. Thats why we have so many choices in the audio world. My friend took home the $10K Ayre CDP and returned it because he didn't think it was worth the money and it was not a big improvement in sound over his CDP. I thought it sounded great and was the best CDP I have ever heard.

[Feanor]

...

I can see why some people would not like the sound of the 840c. Its very neutral and does not add any thing to the music like cheaper players do. The transparency is also an issue. You either like a transparent sound or you don't. I prefer this sound and appreciate that cymbals and treble sound natural.

People will always have their preferences. Every body hears something different. Thats why we have so many choices in the audio world. My friend took home the $10K Ayre CDP and returned it because he didn't think it was worth the money and it was not a big improvement in sound over his CDP. I thought it sounded great and was the best CDP I have ever heard.

"Thin midrange" is a fairly typical response from tube equipment lovers to a very neutral component. I suspect these guys just love the "harmonic richness" or "organic" quality that tubes deliver. Personally I think it's the extra harmonic distortion -- and I say that as tube user myself.

As between the 740 and 840, I'd stretch for the latter if only because my preamp and power amps are fully balanced.

[ldgibson76]

Hello "BR".

Please understand that my observation/response to 'Mr. Peabody" in no way diminishes your opinion regarding the 840 and 740 sound quality difference. Your experience with both players has been invaluable to me. You see, I'm what you call a "Bottom Feeder with a healthy appreciation for the 'high value to performance ratio'." You're right, when talking Hi-end audio, $400 is not alot of money, but I do know that I must upgrade my speakers and my amplification to really elevate my aging system's SQ and reap the benefits from buying either CA CDP. But , Mr. Peabody did make interesting point that I must consider. Actual value as opposed to perceived value. Hey, both are excellent values for the $. And even if I did purchase the 840, once Cambridge Audio introduces a v.2 of the 840, (possibly making it SACD capable) history says that a v.2 will come...., they have on everything else they make......I'm sure I will wonder if I should have held off. That goes for the 740 also. (Drawer/transport upgrade and/or change in DAC's or even SACD or HDCD). Who the hell knows?! Anyway, enjoy your 840C!

[Ajani]

.........

People will always have their preferences. Every body hears something different. Thats why we have so many choices in the audio world. My friend took home the $10K Ayre CDP and returned it because he didn't think it was worth the money and it was not a big improvement in sound over his CDP. I thought it sounded great and was the best CDP I have ever heard.

I think that pretty much sums up the difficulty in audio.... it's all down to preference... it's why some people swear by tubes, while other love solid state.. some love planars others like cone speakers...

It's why I try to avoid claims of "x brand will totally decimate y brand in sound quality", when I make recommendations to people....

My own experience is that the worst high end setup I heard was a new McIntosh & Magnepan Combo.... Products some claim are the pinnacle of High End excellence. On the other hand my absolute favourite combo was a relatively inexpensive Monitor Audio & Musical Fidelity combo....

[Mr Peabody]

ldgibson, I think you read too much into my statements. My main point I wanted you to understand is the more expensive CD player, of any price or brand, will only be fully realized using analog outputs. Using digital connection you wouldn't hear much, if any, difference between any Cambridge and your 2910.

Also, remember when I was using balanced gear I really couldn't hear much difference between the 2 outputs. But it is difficult to get a comparable XLR and RCA set of cables for a perfect match.

I believe BR when he says he heard a difference. Also, anyone who knows me here will tell you I am one who believes and preaches having a good front end. It could certainly be worth $400.00 if you plan to upgrade your receiver some day. Adding just power will help some, mostly with driving your speakers better and allowing more power reserves but that type of set up is still limited by your receiver's preamp section.

I am not an "elitest". I try not to offend anyone by their choice in equipment and I started out using receivers and climbed through the ranks of hi fi gear. Although I do forget sometimes and let a comment fly on Pioneer, Klipsch, Yamaha & Bose. :) I'm really trying to behave though.

[ldgibson76]

Point taken. There's still a lot for me to learn in this genre.
And please understand that the "Elitist" description was a compliment. It takes a lt to reach "Elite" status. You said it yourself, you had to work your way up. It's just my way of saying you know what you're taking about.

Regards.

[O'Shag]

Brent Burmester of Audioenz in New Zealand wrote this review of the 840c in comparson to the 740c..

" While the 740C is a great player, the 840C marks a step into the world of serious furrowed-brow hi-fi. Round the back from its aluminium-plate front panel are the signs that only the initiated need apply for ownership: balanced XLR output sockets, two digital signal inputs, so the player can act as a DAC for other digital devices; and an RS232 serial port for communication with high end multi-room audio controllers. But the real bling is advertised in small letters on the white dot-matrix display in the unassuming face-plate. Prior to converting CD's familiar 16-bit binary words sampled at 44kHz, the digital data is translating into 24-bit words sampled at 384kHz. That last number is worth reading again – not DVD's 96kHz, not even DVD-A's maximum of 192kHz, but a whacking great 384kHz!

You're not wrong if you protest that the 740C can do the same, as it and the 840C share Anagram Technologies' Adaptive Time Filtering asynchronous up-sampling algorithm and a 32-bit Black Fin digital signal processor from Analog Devices. However, if I may deploy an automotive metaphor, in the 840 the fancy engine gets the suspension, transmission, steering, and chassis tuning that ensures none of its power goes to waste. Whereas the 740C makes do with off-the-rack DACs from Wolfson, the flagship model uses Analog Devices' own 24-bit/384kHz DACs, capable of wringing the most out of the incoming upsampled signal. Magic pixie dust is sprinkled elsewhere in the circuitry as well, as testified by the eradication of capacitors in the signal path.

The sound of music
If all that made you want to hurt an engineer, put down your instruments of torture and consider this: the 840C may represent only a 5% gain in musical insight over its little brother, but that amounts to an extraordinarily involving experience once you're parked in front of your speakers. A few nights ago Mazzy Star played above me in the lounge while I was trying to work downstairs, but even from there I was distracted by the sense of space and depth in the sound the 840C conjures from humble CD.

Kula Shaker's new album, Strange Folk, turned out to be an excellent showcase for the 840C's talents, as it swings from folksy to rave, and in scale from cinematic to intimate. Instruments, whether played to death or with a delicate hand, had an almost exemplary tangibility. Crispian Mills' voice, and those of any number of backing singers, were simply arresting, and I should note that the album is far from an audiophile recording. Portishead's eponymous debut is likewise a bit of a sonic shambles, but, in view of the fact that they'll soon release a new album, I gave the disc a spin and was at once sucked deeper than ever before into the damp, oppressive, yet somehow alluring atmosphere the band evokes.

Perhaps the most telling evidence of the 840C's accomplishment is my inattentiveness to the usual things reviewers dwell on when evaluating a component. Bass extension, dynamism, resolution, neutrality, soundstaging, I'm pretty sure were all top-notch, because I had no occasion to think about them. It's really that good, and might be the best player I've heard under $5K. No, it is the best player I've heard under $5K.

I'm the Decider
Most equipment sent for review is pretty competent stuff, about which not much need be said. Every now and again, however, a component comes along that seems to have been made by people unaware of what might reasonably be expected of such a thing, so they happily exceed every reasonable expectation. The 840C is just such a something. If you're at the point in your hi-fi development where you need a player to help you understand what a performer means by their music, and those sort of players are never cheap, I'd advise starting your search here. If you can't afford more, just get one. "

I think this says a lot about the sort of player the 840c is....

[Mr Peabody]

Point taken. There's still a lot for me to learn in this genre.
And please understand that the "Elitist" description was a compliment. It takes a lt to reach "Elite" status. You said it yourself, you had to work your way up. It's just my way of saying you know what you're taking about.

Regards.

Well then, thanks

O'Shag, good input.

[ldgibson76]

Well then, thanks

O'Shag, good input.

Don't mention it!

And that was a strong review "O'Shag" posted. Although, I do believe "Blackraven" did post that same article previously. Very convincing!

[ldgibson76]

Brent Burmester of Audioenz in New Zealand wrote this review of the 840c in comparson to the 740c..

" While the 740C is a great player, the 840C marks a step into the world of serious furrowed-brow hi-fi. Round the back from its aluminium-plate front panel are the signs that only the initiated need apply for ownership: balanced XLR output sockets, two digital signal inputs, so the player can act as a DAC for other digital devices; and an RS232 serial port for communication with high end multi-room audio controllers. But the real bling is advertised in small letters on the white dot-matrix display in the unassuming face-plate. Prior to converting CD's familiar 16-bit binary words sampled at 44kHz, the digital data is translating into 24-bit words sampled at 384kHz. That last number is worth reading again – not DVD's 96kHz, not even DVD-A's maximum of 192kHz, but a whacking great 384kHz!

You're not wrong if you protest that the 740C can do the same, as it and the 840C share Anagram Technologies' Adaptive Time Filtering asynchronous up-sampling algorithm and a 32-bit Black Fin digital signal processor from Analog Devices. However, if I may deploy an automotive metaphor, in the 840 the fancy engine gets the suspension, transmission, steering, and chassis tuning that ensures none of its power goes to waste. Whereas the 740C makes do with off-the-rack DACs from Wolfson, the flagship model uses Analog Devices' own 24-bit/384kHz DACs, capable of wringing the most out of the incoming upsampled signal. Magic pixie dust is sprinkled elsewhere in the circuitry as well, as testified by the eradication of capacitors in the signal path.

The sound of music
If all that made you want to hurt an engineer, put down your instruments of torture and consider this: the 840C may represent only a 5% gain in musical insight over its little brother, but that amounts to an extraordinarily involving experience once you're parked in front of your speakers. A few nights ago Mazzy Star played above me in the lounge while I was trying to work downstairs, but even from there I was distracted by the sense of space and depth in the sound the 840C conjures from humble CD.

Kula Shaker's new album, Strange Folk, turned out to be an excellent showcase for the 840C's talents, as it swings from folksy to rave, and in scale from cinematic to intimate. Instruments, whether played to death or with a delicate hand, had an almost exemplary tangibility. Crispian Mills' voice, and those of any number of backing singers, were simply arresting, and I should note that the album is far from an audiophile recording. Portishead's eponymous debut is likewise a bit of a sonic shambles, but, in view of the fact that they'll soon release a new album, I gave the disc a spin and was at once sucked deeper than ever before into the damp, oppressive, yet somehow alluring atmosphere the band evokes.

Perhaps the most telling evidence of the 840C's accomplishment is my inattentiveness to the usual things reviewers dwell on when evaluating a component. Bass extension, dynamism, resolution, neutrality, soundstaging, I'm pretty sure were all top-notch, because I had no occasion to think about them. It's really that good, and might be the best player I've heard under $5K. No, it is the best player I've heard under $5K.

I'm the Decider
Most equipment sent for review is pretty competent stuff, about which not much need be said. Every now and again, however, a component comes along that seems to have been made by people unaware of what might reasonably be expected of such a thing, so they happily exceed every reasonable expectation. The 840C is just such a something. If you're at the point in your hi-fi development where you need a player to help you understand what a performer means by their music, and those sort of players are never cheap, I'd advise starting your search here. If you can't afford more, just get one. "

I think this says a lot about the sort of player the 840c is....

O'Shag.

Very powerful stuff! Thanks for the input. You are the man!

[blackraven]

I read that review and one other comparing the 740c and 840c and those are what convinced me to buy the 840c. That article that you posted O'Shag, perfectly describes the difference between the 2 players without getting too technical.

I think that the 840c is a good match for Magnepans because the Maggies midrange is foward in presentation. It makes a good balance.

[O'Shag]

I've got to say it, I've been very intrigued by this player for several months now. I believe it must have something...special. Two players that knock me out every time I hear them are the Audio Research Reference CD7, and the Meridian 808 Reference. It makes me laugh when I hear folks claim that the $300 CD player will sound essentially the same as something like this. They clearly have never heard players like this in a good system. What I find intriguing about the 840c is that for a fraction of the price, it may have some, even most of the same magic as those two players - a rightness about the sound that can inject organicness and aliveness into a plain old CD.

[Ajani]

I've got to say it, I've been very intrigued by this player for several months now. I believe it must have something...special. Two players that knock me out every time I hear them are the Audio Research Reference CD7, and the Meridian 808 Reference. It makes me laugh when I hear folks claim that the $300 CD player will sound essentially the same as something like this. They clearly have never heard players like this in a good system. What I find intriguing about the 840c is that for a fraction of the price, it may have some, even most of the same magic as those two players - a rightness about the sound that can inject organicness and aliveness into a plain old CD.

I think that's the truth of the issue... Some people insist that all CD players sound the same... while other go right to the other extreme and think that anything under $3K must sound like rubbish...

The problem being that to really appreciate the differences between an inexpensive and an expensive CD player, you really need high quality Amplification and Speakers...

So what I believe happens is that an elitist tells someone with a low budget that the $300 player he wants to buy is rubbish, that he should spend at least $1K on a CD player.... so the person buys a $1K player, combines it with a $300 pair of speakers and a $250 Receiver and is totally dissapointed with the result.... He then starts to believe that all players sound the same...

Just my personal oppinion... but $300 players can sound just fine... not as a good as a $3K player... but the upgrade isn't worth it unless you have the requisite amplification and speakers...

[O'Shag]

I think that's the truth of the issue... Some people insist that all CD players sound the same... while other go right to the other extreme and think that anything under $3K must sound like rubbish...

The problem being that to really appreciate the differences between an inexpensive and an expensive CD player, you really need high quality Amplification and Speakers...

So what I believe happens is that an elitist tells someone with a low budget that the $300 player he wants to buy is rubbish, that he should spend at least $1K on a CD player.... so the person buys a $1K player, combines it with a $300 pair of speakers and a $250 Receiver and is totally dissapointed with the result.... He then starts to believe that all players sound the same...

Just my personal oppinion... but $300 players can sound just fine... not as a good as a $3K player... but the upgrade isn't worth it unless you have the requisite amplification and speakers...

Ajani - well, you have a good point in one respect. I've heard $300 players that sound ok. You can have ok sound for a low-ish price theres no denying. I would have to say though, that one immediately notices additional levels of refinement and 'real-ness' from a player such as the 840c, even with lower-priced speakers and at least reasonable amplification. This makes music more intelligle, more complete, and more flowing like the real thing. As the quality of amplification and speakers improves, no doubt the better player will demonstrate its capabilities even more.

I think recommending to someone that they could spend $1k on a CD player to get better sound, is realistic, but for myself, I am of the opinion one should always start with the preamp as the foundation, before investing heavily elsewhere.

With respect to a CD spinner, Its definitely possible to get a player that brings music to life for $800-$1000 given some of the low-priced Chinese players such as the Pacific Valve MHZ CD88E or Doge 6.

Theres been a lot said about the Oppo player for $200-$300. I bought one for my Fiancee. Tried it. For SACD its not bad, For CD, it sounds, well, just so so(contrary to the hype) in comparison to my own player, which is far from the most expensive of the breed. Like everything else there is definitely a point of diminishing returns. Of course, when you hear a player like the ARC Reference CD7, you realize immediately what all the fuss is about, because music just has a lot more impact, period. As for myself, I think SACD and high-res 96/24bit CD or DVD-A is inherently better than redbook CD.

[Mr Peabody]

O'Shag I wasn't going to say anything and just let you carry the torch for awhile but I couldn't stand it, I am so glad some one else understands the importance of a good source and the fact, like you said, you can enjoy a better source even with a reasonably good system.

[Ajani]

O'Shag I wasn't going to say anything and just let you carry the torch for awhile but I couldn't stand it, I am so glad some one else understands the importance of a good source and the fact, like you said, you can enjoy a better source even with a reasonably good system.

I hope you don't think that I disagree with you that a good source is ESSENTIAL....

I just feel that in terms of allocating funds, it's best to start with a pair of speakers you really love and then you can worry about upgrading your amp and then CD player to squeeze out the best performance out of your speakers....

For example:

Which system do you think would be more satisfying? (assuming the Amp is the same)

Option (1) $1,500 CD Player + $300 Speakers

Cambridge Audio 840C CD player + PSB Alpha B1, Paradigm Atom, Monitor Audio BR1 etc...

OR

Option (2) $300CD Player + $1,500 Speakers

Cambridge Audio 340C CD Player + Paradigm Studio 60 Speakers, PSB Image T65, Revel Concerta F12, Monitor Audio RS6 etc...


If I remember correctly, at one of the CES' a high end speaker manufacturer played their new ultra-expensive speaker on 'mystery' gear.... and having impressed the crowd and critics, pulled back the curtain to reveal a simple integrated amp and Apple ipod as the source.... (I'll have to look this up to confirm it)... Now I'm sure the speakers would have sounded even better with a high quality source.... but clearly it was still able to sound amazing with a very basic one.....

[Feanor]

I hope you don't think that I disagree with you that a good source is ESSENTIAL....

.....

Mr.Peabody is a primacy of source kind of guy. Others are speaker primacy people, (e.g. E-Stat). Others are simply "weakest link in the chain" or the variation, "most cost-effective upgrade" people such as yours truly.

Speakers are often the weakest link in the typical entry level system, but that is less often the case once you get to mid- or high-end systems. E.g. I recently recommended to blackraven that he upgade is amplication first before moving from Magneplanar 1.6's to 3.6's.

[blackraven]

If you ever happen to go visit the Magnepan factory here in Minnesota. In their lobby, they have a pair of MMG's connected to a proton receiver and a Sony Walkman CDP to show just how good the speakers sound with a cheap source. You can bring your own music and play it on the system.

[ldgibson76]

Mr.Peabody is a primacy of source kind of guy. Others are speaker primacy people, (e.g. E-Stat). Others are simply "weakest link in the chain" or the variation, "most cost-effective upgrade" people such as yours truly.

Speakers are often the weakest link in the typical entry level system, but that is less often the case once you get to mid- or high-end systems. E.g. I recently recommended to blackraven that he upgade is amplication first before moving from Magneplanar 1.6's to 3.6's.

O.K., this thread is really becoming interesting. I'm completely befuddled! I'm not sure what category I would fall into. I have to determine which route to take so I can elevate my system to the next level without exceeding that threshold of "diminishing returns". Here are my options:
A) Buy the CA 840C, (replacing the 640C v.2) and see if it's superior capabilities will suffice for an adequate upgrade to my system. Cost of upgrade:$1400.00

B) Buy a pre-owned high quality multi-channel (B&K/Sunfire/Parasound, etc...), keep the 640C and hope the amplification boost will bring some warmth along with power and clarity. Cost of amp: $1000-1500.00.

C) Buy a new speaker system (Pre-Owned B&W 804 HT Pkg or New Paradigm Studio 100 v.3 HT PKG), keep the 640C, and and continue to let the Marantz SR9300 do the amplification. Cost of Spkr pkg.: approx $4000.00

D) Purchase both 840C and hi-end pre-owned multi-channel amp. Cost: approx $2400-3000.00.

E) Buy the 840C and the one of the speaker pkgs. Cost: approx $5400.00

or

F) Just go for it and buy it all.....The 840C, the Multi-channel amp, and the speaker pkg.

Now obviously, this is the most expensive option and probably the best option, but to what point? Can I afford to do "F"? Yes, if I supplement with financing. I currently have $4000.00 to work with.

Suggestions please!!!!!:confused5:

[Ajani]

O.K., this thread is really becoming interesting. I'm completely befuddled! I'm not sure what category I would fall into. I have to determine which route to take so I can elevate my system to the next level without exceeding that threshold of "diminishing returns". Here are my options:
A) Buy the CA 840C, (replacing the 640C v.2) and see if it's superior capabilities will suffice for an adequate upgrade to my system. Cost of upgrade:$1400.00

B) Buy a pre-owned high quality multi-channel (B&K/Sunfire/Parasound, etc...), keep the 640C and hope the amplification boost will bring some warmth along with power and clarity. Cost of amp: $1000-1500.00.

C) Buy a new speaker system (Pre-Owned B&W 804 HT Pkg or New Paradigm Studio 100 v.3 HT PKG), keep the 640C, and and continue to let the Marantz SR9300 do the amplification. Cost of Spkr pkg.: approx $4000.00

D) Purchase both 840C and hi-end pre-ownd multi-channel amp. Cost: approx $2400-3000.00.

or

F) Just go for it and buy it all.....The 840C, the Multi-channel amp, and the speaker pkg.

Now obviously, this is the most expensive option and probably the best option, but to what point? Can I afford to do "F"? Yes, if I supplement with financing. I currently have $4000.00 to work with.

Suggestions please!!!!!:confused5:

My suggestion would be to start by auditioning as many complete HT setups in your price range you can find... then trying to rebuild your favourite one in your own home... starting with Speakers, then amplification, then Universal/CD player....

You really shouldn't rush and shell out all that money at once... as you may not be satisfied with the result....

[Feanor]

O.K., this thread is really becoming interesting. I'm completely befuddled! I'm not sure what category I would fall into. I have to determine which route to take so I can elevate my system to the next level without exceeding that threshold of "diminishing returns". Here are my options:
A) Buy the CA 840C, (replacing the 640C v.2) and see if it's superior capabilities will suffice for an adequate upgrade to my system. Cost of upgrade:$1400.00

B) Buy a pre-owned high quality multi-channel (B&K/Sunfire/Parasound, etc...), keep the 640C and hope the amplification boost will bring some warmth along with power and clarity. Cost of amp: $1000-1500.00.

C) Buy a new speaker system (Pre-Owned B&W 804 HT Pkg or New Paradigm Studio 100 v.3 HT PKG), keep the 640C, and and continue to let the Marantz SR9300 do the amplification. Cost of Spkr pkg.: approx $4000.00

D) Purchase both 840C and hi-end pre-ownd multi-channel amp. Cost: approx $2400-3000.00.

or

F) Just go for it and buy it all.....The 840C, the Multi-channel amp, and the speaker pkg.

Now obviously, this is the most expensive option and probably the best option, but to what point? Can I afford to do "F"? Yes, if I supplement with financing. I currently have $4000.00 to work with.

Suggestions please!!!!!:confused5:

I find it a bit hard to advise about HT systems overall, but let me make a few comments. Also, I would never recommend that anyone go into hock to buy hi-fi equipment.

First, I doubt that an 840C CDP would be the most cost effective move in your case, even though it's not the most expensive upgrade. (For my stereo system, which is a different matter, the Cambridge or a DAC will likely be my next move.)

Were we talking 2 channel, I'd better say speakers would be your next move for sure, but 5 or 6 speakers is a different problem. A left+right+center-only upgrade is an option, IMO.

Still speaking of 2 channel, amplifier(s) would closely follow speakers. I like my Monarchy SM-70 Pro monoblocks a lot. Talk about warmth, clarity, and dynamics -- they've got it. Multichannel is another matter, although if you listen a lot to stereo you might very well consider such an upgrade -- no immedate need to upgrade the center and surronds. I'm not knocking the B&K, Sunfire, or Parasounds, but I'm skeptical that they are in the same league as the Monarchy.

[O'Shag]

Blackraven,

The Maggies are good indeed. However I'd have to raise my brow at the proton reciever and Sony walkman. How do you know they have not been modified? I can tell you for a fact that if you run the Maggies with, lets say an Audio Research SP6e preamp driving a pair of Mark Levinson No.27 amps being fed the signal from a Cambridge Audio 840C, there will be little resemblance between the two in terms of system performance and conveyance of the musical message. If there was a close resemblance, it would reflect that the Maggie is not transparent to the source (which I've not found to be the case). If the performance from the proton/walkman seems very impressive according to high-end standards, then they must be modified. By the way I lived in MN St Paul for amost 3 years..

[Mr Peabody]

Ajani, Feanor has my number, I would take the system with the $1,500.00 CD player and $300.00 speakers. I guess all of our goals are the same we just take different roads.

ldg, It's hard to stand in some one else's shoes for them. I believe the 840 will give you an immediate improvement. I don't see your receiver pushing a $4k set of B&W to their potential. "f" would be an option if you could try all your potential purchases together for synergy. Ajani has a point there, especially since you are planning to buy the amplification used. So here's my suggestion, buy the amp first since you are going to the used market. The CDP or speakers you can audition or buy with return options. So buy the amp as your cornerstone and build around it. The 840 will be available for awhile, plus you said they may offer a 2nd version. In your case I think this is the logical way to go about putting your system together.

[ldgibson76]

Hello Fellas!

By the way, here's what I current have:

The A/V System
A/V Receiver
Marantz SR9300 A/V Receiver -140w x 7 DTS; DTS ES; DTS Neo 6; DTS 24/96
THX; THX Surround EX; THX Ultra2; CS II; DPL II; HDCD.
Audio:
-Cambridge Audio Azur 640C v.2 CD Player w/ (24 Bit/192kHz Audio DAC)
-Denon DVD2910 Universal DVD/DVD-A/SACD Player (Dual 12 Bit/216MHz Video
DAC’s) HDMI w/Upscaling to 720P/1080i and HDCD compatibility
-Philips CDR 950 CD Recorder
-Yamaha CDC-685 5 Discs CD Changer
-DLO HomeDock iPod A/V Docking Station

Video:
-Motorola/Verizon QIP-6416 HD/DVR/Dual Tuner/Multi-room Cable Box w/ HDMI
-Sony DVPNC555ES 5 Disc DVD Changer (12 Bit/216 MHz Video DAC)
-Pioneer Elite DVR-7000 DVD Recorder (10 Bit/54 MHz Video DAC’s)
-Mitsubishi HS-U746 S-VHS VCR - (Panasonic DMP-BD30K Blu ray Player) Has been purchased but not installed yet.
-Microsoft X-BOX Gaming System

Video Display:
-Samsung HP-S5053 50”Plasma HDTV Monitor w/HDMI & 1366 x 768p
-Belkin PureAV 3 in 1 HDMI v1.2 Switcher

Remote:
Universal Remote MX850 Aeros

Power and Protection:
Panamax M5400-PM Power Center/Conditioner/Surge Protector
Panamax MAX5100 Power Center/Conditioner/Surge Protector
Panamax Max 2 Coax Surge Protector
Monster Cable SW200 Surge Protector

Speaker Package:
-Klipsch Reference RF35 (Fronts) w/Monster Cable M1.4s Bi-wire Speaker Cable
-Klipsch Reference RC35 (Center) w/Monster Cable MCX-1 CC Speaker Cable
-Klipsch Reference RS35 (Surrounds) w/Pro Connect Pro-Flex 14 AWG Speaker wire
-Klipsch Reference RS25 (Rear Center) w/Pro Connect Pro-Flex 14 AWG Speaker wire
-Klipsch Reference RSW10 Powered Subwoofer
-Sennheiser HD535 Headphones

[blackraven]

I'd go for new speakers my self. I don't think you will like the sound of the 840c with the klipsch. It will be too bright. Just tonight my wife and I were listening to the Alan Parsons Project and it sounded too bright with the 840c so we swithced to the Musichall which has a much warmer sound and it sounded much better. There was less detail and transparency but the added warmth was needed since the CD is an old 80's CD. I tend to think that older rock music sounds better on my MH vs the 840 because recorded music from that era was very bright sounding.

I think upgrading your speakers will have greater impact on your sound then upgrading to an audiophile CDP and power amp. 140wpc should be able to drive those B&W's adequatelyand give you good sound. That Marantz receiver is no slouch. Will it sound as good as a Krell or CJ amp, no, but will it sound good, yes! Get the new speakers, see how things sound and then upgrade your CDP and amp.

[blackraven]

Hey, O'shag, The point of Magnepan using a Sony Walkman CDP and a proton receiver with their entry level MMG's was to show how good the MMG's can sound with a poor source being the Walkman. I don't know how you would modify a Sony Walkman the size of a large wallet.

[Ajani]

Mr.Peabody is a primacy of source kind of guy. Others are speaker primacy people, (e.g. E-Stat). Others are simply "weakest link in the chain" or the variation, "most cost-effective upgrade" people such as yours truly.

Speakers are often the weakest link in the typical entry level system, but that is less often the case once you get to mid- or high-end systems. E.g. I recently recommended to blackraven that he upgade is amplication first before moving from Magneplanar 1.6's to 3.6's.

I agree with that statement...

This is just my personal experience, but I found that for just about all the speaker brands I like.... at the $1K - $1.5K range (limited bass floorstanders to decent bass), in order to make really noticable improvement in the sound quality, I needed to jump from $1K to $3K or $1.5K to $4K.... essentially tripling the cost of the speaker... So at that point I could make cheaper improvements by upgrading from entry level integrated amps to mid-level integrateds or basic seperates....

I do agree with the weakest link approach to upgrade.... but I generally start system building with speakers, then amp, then source.....

[ldgibson76]

Hello Everyone! (Ajani, Blackraven, Feanor, Mr. Peabody and O'Shag)

To all that responded, thank you very much for the input. It's very interesting that the suggestions varied like they did, and all are worthy of consideration. It's nice to see and experience this type of interaction on this forum.
Now, what I've gathered from some of the responses is that the Klipsch speaker system has gotta go! No matter what amplifier I attach, it won't help them. I do believe that the speaker upgrade will have the most dramatic effect in sound quality, regardless of what I play or listen to. (It's a sad reality acknowledging that something you had so much faith in, happens to be the weak link in your investment. Don't laugh Mr. Peabody!). The multi-channel amp will follow and then the CDP upgrade. One thing I did not make apparent in my initial inquiry, was that I did not want to sacrifice my multi-channel capability. I do want to also have the dynamic surround sound movie experience I get with the Klipsch's. That's the one thing that they do well. That's why I believe that by adding a high quality amp to the new speaker pkg will insure that I continue to have that movie cinema effect. If I'm sounding like I've haven't learned anything from all of the suggestions given, please feel free to call me a "moron" and school me! You all have earned my respect.

"Feanor", I agree with you whole-heartily about going into hock on hi-fi equipment. But, I'm sure like all of us at one time or another in life, I suffer from the "I want it now!" syndrome. (smile)

To "Blackraven". I do agree with your accessment regarding the brightness the 840C would create with the Klipsch. I get that now with the 640C with various cd's. Especially with HDCD encoded CD's. I without pause must switch to analog. When I do that, it warms up a little. Still not to where it should be, but it's tolerable. I bet that the Marantz contributes to that perceived warming up also.
But when you have a HDCD encoded CD, wouldn't you want to experience the enhancement? When I go to analog and the receiver is in pure direct mode, the HDCD logo disappears and I guess at that time I'm experiencing the 640C's DAC's. So I guess the 840C will sound much better because of it's superior DAC's. Still, the Klipsch will most likely neutralize any improvements because of it's bright tendancies. Then again, some may like the sound the Klipsch creates. I've outgrown it. This stuff drives me nuts!
Time for me to go speaker hunting!

[Mr Peabody]

You might give a listen to Paradigm, they are a lively sound with out being offensive and still fairly sensitive.

I didn't realize you had Klipsch, you are probably on the right track.

[blackraven]

I'm not a big fan of multichannel audio for listening to music. When you go to a concert at a small venue there is no surround sound. The music is coming from a point source on the stage. However, I do like 2ch SACD. And the Marantz SA8001 SACDP would warm up your sound. But in the long run you would be better to upgrade your speakers.

[ldgibson76]

I'm not a big fan of multichannel audio for listening to music. When you go to a concert at a small venue there is no surround sound. The music is coming from a point source on the stage. However, I do like 2ch SACD. And the Marantz SA8001 SACDP would warm up your sound. But in the long run you would be better to upgrade your speakers.

"BR",

I did consider the Marantz SA8001, especially after reading your review comparing it to the 740C. According to the way you described the performance, it would seem that the SA8001 would possibly sound better with my Klipsch speakers. If I were to stay with the Klipsch pkg, then I would most likely opt for the Marantz. But, I plan on replacing these speakers as quickly as I can. After visiting the local B&W and Paradigm authorized retailers and listening to both products, It's still a toss up. Thanks again for the input.

[Ajani]

"BR",

I did consider the Marantz SA8001, especially after reading your review comparing it to the 740C. According to the way you described the performance, it would seem that the SA8001 would possibly sound better with my Klipsch speakers. If I were to stay with the Klipsch pkg, then I would most likely opt for the Marantz. But, I plan on replacing these speakers as quickly as I can. After visiting the local B&W and Paradigm authorized retailers and listening to both products, It's still a toss up. Thanks again for the input.

Actually, if I was purchasing either B&W or Paradigm, I'd probably opt for the Marantz over the Cambridge Audio...

Also, have you listened to any other brands of speakers?

[ldgibson76]

Actually, if I was purchasing either B&W or Paradigm, I'd probably opt for the Marantz over the Cambridge Audio...

Also, have you listened to any other brands of speakers?

As a matter of fact I have. The Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand's and the Focal JM Labs 826VB's

Mozarts sounded nice. They were connected to a Pioneer Elite Pioneer VSX-94TXH. That's the best the retailer could do. Good bass response and great imaging. The whole pkg not including the sub which would most likely be a REL or Velodyne....$5300.00

The Focals were nice also. They were connected to a Denon 4308. Not including the sub, $5100.00 The sub was $1000. And that was the lower model.

Here's the shame of it all. Only the Paradigm retailer gave me what I would consider "a close to my scenario" audition. Why? Well, they are an authorized Marantz dealer also and was kind enough to connected the Paradigm Studio 60 v.3's to a Marantz SR9600. And I have to say, I was really impressed, not only with the effort, but with the overall performance. In 2 channel, great imaging, and very impressive low end depth. The rep even re-routed amplification thru an external 5 channel amp (Anthem) and the system really came alive. I may go with the Paradigms just on the customer service given by the rep. Normally $4850.00, I was offered $4500.00 for the whole pkg, not including the sub. I would just use my Velodyne CHT12 until a later date.

The B&W's were definitely out of my comfort zone. If I were to choose the 804's, it would be from a previous owner. I may audition the 700 series this weekend.

Outside what I've auditioned so far, do you have another brand in mind?!

[nightflier]

Just a question that I think needs to be asked: if the player sounds like a player 2-3 times as much, where did CA cut corners? I know their gear is manufactured in China, but is that the only reason it is as low as it is but compares to, oh I don't know, the Simaudio Supernova for example. Or does it?

[blackraven]

Check out the B&W floor stander 600 series speakers 683 and 684's as well as the CM series. And stick with the velodyne sub for now. If you get a good floor stander speaker, you may find that you only need the sub for HT use and not music. I've got a velodyne CHT-8 and its great for HT. The CHT velodyne subs are very musical subs and I bought mine years ago over some of their more expensive models because of this. Even the guys at velodyne liked the CHT series subs for musuc over some of their other models.

You should be able to build a HT with the B&W floor standers as fronts and the 686's for rear channels and then a B&W center for under $3500. Then you could spring for a new CDP
683-$1500pr
686-$500pr
Centers LCR60-$350, LCR600-$500, HTM62-$425

Check out www.hometheaterstore.com/tower_speaker_s/32.htm for B&W's

If you go with the Pardigms, you'll have a great system as well.

[blackraven]

I don't think CA cut corners. The unit is built like a tank weighing almost 20lb's. Other manufacturers ar scratching their heads wondering how CA can sell the 840c for that price once they have seen the inside of the unit (this was taken from an article I read). There is tremendous mark up on high end audio equipment. Look inside a 10K CDP and tell me that the components even come close to costing 2k. CA is trying to gain a market share of mid to high end audio and is doing so by producing high quality equipment at low cost. Just look at the price of compuet equipment. Computers are dirt cheap now and they are still making money although the profit margin is smaller.

[ldgibson76]

Just a question that I think needs to be asked: if the player sounds like a player 2-3 times as much, where did CA cut corners? I know their gear is manufactured in China, but is that the only reason it is as low as it is but compares to, oh I don't know, the Simaudio Supernova for example. Or does it?

Hello Nightflier!

Welcome to the Cambridge Audio Azur 840C 1st Impressions Thread.
You are such an audio snob!:) Only kidding.
You sound like the Mercedes-Benz and BMW engineers back in 1988. That's when Lexus introduced the LS400. They had similar concerns regarding the pricing of the LS400, being that it had a 48 valve 8 cylinder engine and was priced below the 6 cylinder models offered by those superior manufacturers. Lexus had to be cutting corners or be prepared for huge losses.
The reviewers of the CA Azur 840C have said that the Cambridge has built a high quality CDP, that can hold it's own against a lot of the higher priced offerings out there. Of course, there are better players available, but you better believe that you will have to spend 4-5K and beyond to get similar and/or better performance. Of course, any review is subjective, but hey, check out the specs on the 840 and then compare to the CD players you currently own. You paid big money for your equipment, and I'm sure you feel that you got what you paid for. But don't think for a minute that the Cambridge product is all hype, cause it isn't. In the future when you decide to purchase a new CDP, wouldn't it be nice to know that there's a player out there that cost a fraction of what you paid for your older model, but is every bit the equivalent, if not a better transport?! That CDP is here and it's only going to get better as newer models are introduced. The upsampling capability alone should have your mouth watering! No need for an external DAC. It's in there!

Regards!

[O'Shag]

Blackraven is spot on. Cambridge are employing the age old formula; high quality and performance/ at a much lower price compared to others offering comparable sound and build quality. CA are sacrificing margins to win market share. Once they've got the market share they want, they'll spin out a revised model at much higher prices to bring margins higher.

Actually Gibson makes a really important point, This unit allows external components to utilize its high grade DAC. to my mind, that makes the deal even more enticing...

[ldgibson76]

Check out the B&W floor stander 600 series speakers 683 and 684's as well as the CM series. And stick with the velodyne sub for now. If you get a good floor stander speaker, you may find that you only need the sub for HT use and not music. I've got a velodyne CHT-8 and its great for HT. The CHT velodyne subs are very musical subs and I bought mine years ago over some of their more expensive models because of this. Even the guys at velodyne liked the CHT series subs for musuc over some of their other models.

You should be able to build a HT with the B&W floor standers as fronts and the 686's for rear channels and then a B&W center for under $3500. Then you could spring for a new CDP
683-$1500pr
686-$500pr
Centers LCR60-$350, LCR600-$500, HTM62-$425

Check out www.hometheaterstore.com/tower_speaker_s/32.htm for B&W's

If you go with the Pardigms, you'll have a great system as well.

"BR",

Thanks for the heads up on the website. I will go and listen to the 6 Series models tomorrow and I'll update you on the audition. But the Paradigms really impressed me.
BTW, I do like my Velodyne CHT12, but it's a very big box. My room is only 11.6 feet wide, so floor space is valuable. With my current arrangement, I can't position it up front. It must sit on either the left or right wall. As of right now, the Klipsch RSW10, which has a much smaller footprint, sits on the left side of the room against the wall. But, I will use the CHT12 regardless of which pkg I choose. I'll just have to make it work.

[kiwi_1282001]

Blackraven is spot on. Cambridge are employing the age old formula; high quality and performance/ at a much lower price compared to others offering comparable sound and build quality. CA are sacrificing margins to win market share. Once they've got the market share they want, they'll spin out a revised model at much higher prices to bring margins higher.




Greetings to all, this is my first post here. I hail from New Zealand and note with interest the extensive carriage of AudioENZ's [New Zealand's audio forum & on-line HiFi magazine] reviews on the CA 740 & 840C products in this forum's thread.

I have read the various comments in this thread with interest and based on my ownership of CA products 640C V2 & 840C i would like to contribute the following comment.

1. Has the CA cut corners with the 840C?

I think the short answer is yes. There is so much technology crammed into the well built casing that in order to price it as they do some corners had to be cut. Beyond manufacture in China which today is common practice some corners [fortunately addressable ones] have been cut.

First up, the CA840C feet. The feet as supplied are relativey cheap plastic footers which are widely regarded as providing insufficient isolation for the player. Two options exist. First, Herbie's Audio Lab provide aftermarket footers [tenderfoot]. Direct replacement of the footers is not a quick job but users report improvements in bass response and imaging. The sound option is to leave the existing feet in place but use aftermarket isolation feet such as Golden Sands DH cones and pads or my personal favourite, Nordost Pulsar points.

Second, the power cable. If you have the means to buy an aftermarket power cable - please do so. I have tried a range of power cables from Ecosse Big Orange [which is affordable] to Nordost's Shiva and Vishnu [less affordable]. All provide sonic improvements over the supplied power cable. Most notably, the noise level drops and the dynamics improve.


2. Use the XLR!

Cambridge Audio provided balanced connectors on the 840C for a reason! Whilst antigonists would all claim that balanced is marketing BS - since my amps support both it was dead easy with level adjustment to test both myself. My findings were that sound quality via XLR was considerably better than unbalanced. The balanced connection provided a much lower noise floor and superior dynamics. For what its worth XLR connectors which have multiple signal paths and a proper solid connector with connecting clip are light years better then those dreadful - wiggle them on; wiggle them off RCA connectors!

Since the Vout from XLR is double that of unbalanced (4.4v / 2.2v) i enjoyed a secondary benefit - my hard to drive planar speakers came alive! The power amp did not have to work as hard to enjoy my usual listening levels of circa 90+ dB. This was also good for some of my low level Chesky and other audiophile RB recordings.

If you are using the RCA's today - think seriously about balanced tomorrow.


3. 640C vs. 740c vs. 840c

The sound quality move up with the range - but all are winners IMHO at their respective price points. Having heard all three i would say that the gap between the 640c & the 740c is greater than the gap between the 740c and the 840c. That said, the jump between the 740c and 840c is worth every $ in my opinion. Its not just the gain of the balanced connectors - its the further refinement in sound which the Anagram Technologies (AFT) IP provides.


4. Using an AVR for amplification - are you serious?

Matthew Bramble, the Technical Director for Cambridge Audio says it all in the introduction of the 840C's user manual

"Your CD player can only be as good as the system it is connected to. Please do not compromise on your amplifier, speakers or cabling."


5. Is CA sacrificing margins now to bring out higher priced product later?

I don't believe so. CA is making the margins it needs today on product its making today. I recently wrote to CA asking them when i could expect them to bring out a much more expensive CD player! I even had the cheek to suggest their next player be called the 940C and it should sample RB at DSD rates [like Meitner and co.] I received a very polite reply back saying that CA fully intended to remain in its current market positioning of high performance at affordable price points. Good for them - and us!

[Ajani]

Hopefully no Cambridge Audio owners will be offended by this, but my ONLY real reason for being reluctant to purchase a CA product has been consumer feedback on quality control....

I've read so many amazing critical reviews for CA products only to check out the consumer feedback and see some really dissapointing complaints about products failing... e.g. the 640C with dual DACs, I read several reviews about one channel dying etc... and I guess what sealed the fear for me was that one of the only 2 times I've auditioned CA gear, the product did something truly strange...

I was in a pretty crappy wannabe-high-end-audio store (it carried many really good lines but set them all up poorly) and I auditioned a CA 540A&C combo with a pair of Quad 21Ls... I put on some good old Billie Jean and had to kill the volume quickly... The CD player was having trouble playing the disc (no idea why, since it played on a NAD and a Marantz CD player with no trouble)... but instead of just giving an error message or taking a while to load etc.... the CD played but sounded like a scratched record, with music coming out and then some awful screaching, breaking up and lines repeating... It was the strangest experience I've ever had with a CD player....

I'm sure many proud CA owners have had trouble free years with their products, but I guess my initial fears combined with that really awful experience, have made me truly reluctant to give CA gear a try....

[Ajani]

As a matter of fact I have. The Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand's and the Focal JM Labs 826VB's

Mozarts sounded nice. They were connected to a Pioneer Elite Pioneer VSX-94TXH. That's the best the retailer could do. Good bass response and great imaging. The whole pkg not including the sub which would most likely be a REL or Velodyne....$5300.00

The Focals were nice also. They were connected to a Denon 4308. Not including the sub, $5100.00 The sub was $1000. And that was the lower model.

Here's the shame of it all. Only the Paradigm retailer gave me what I would consider "a close to my scenario" audition. Why? Well, they are an authorized Marantz dealer also and was kind enough to connected the Paradigm Studio 60 v.3's to a Marantz SR9600. And I have to say, I was really impressed, not only with the effort, but with the overall performance. In 2 channel, great imaging, and very impressive low end depth. The rep even re-routed amplification thru an external 5 channel amp (Anthem) and the system really came alive. I may go with the Paradigms just on the customer service given by the rep. Normally $4850.00, I was offered $4500.00 for the whole pkg, not including the sub. I would just use my Velodyne CHT12 until a later date.

The B&W's were definitely out of my comfort zone. If I were to choose the 804's, it would be from a previous owner. I may audition the 700 series this weekend.

Outside what I've auditioned so far, do you have another brand in mind?!

I'd add Monitor Audio, Energy, PSB and for a change of pace... probably Dynaudio and Totem.... It's best to listen to as many speakers as you can, since they best brand for you may well be one you've not heard yet...

[Ajani]

Hmmmm, despite my fear of CA products I must admit that I am very tempted by the fact that both the 740C and 840C have digital inputs and hence can be used as DACs... that would be a great way to add both a DAC for my computer audio and a dedicated CD player...

Too bad they didn't take it just one step further and add a USB input.....

[kiwi_1282001]

Hopefully no Cambridge Audio owners will be offended by this, but my ONLY real reason for being reluctant to purchase a CA product has been consumer feedback on quality control....

I've read so many amazing critical reviews for CA products only to check out the consumer feedback and see some really dissapointing complaints about products failing... e.g. the 640C with dual DACs, I read several reviews about one channel dying etc... and I guess what sealed the fear for me was that one of the only 2 times I've auditioned CA gear, the product did something truly strange...



This sadly is true. Quality problems were limited to the 640C where one channel sometimes died. It happened to me. I took the unit back and the retailer replaced it with an 840C for a nominal price difference. :)

[ldgibson76]

[4. Using an AVR for amplification - are you serious?

Matthew Bramble, the Technical Director for Cambridge Audio says it all in the introduction of the 840C's user manual

"Your CD player can only be as good as the system it is connected to. Please do not compromise on your amplifier, speakers or cabling."]

Hello "Kiwi". Welcome to Audio Review!

Thank you for the input regarding the Cambridge products. Receiving insight from "down under" about your experiences with the Azur CDP's was very enlightening. Understand that there are those on this forum that go to great lengths to become educated on interesting product(s) on the market. Especially products such as the 740 and 840C. In such a saturated market, it is rare that a product sets a completely new standard in the industry. Think about it.....imagine Linn, Marantz, Cary, Meridian, Music Hall, etc,....introducing a CDP with the capabilities of the 840C (for instance, upsampling), that Player would be 6-7K+ at the minimum. Cutting corners.....yeah, maybe Cambridge did. But I can assure you that there are those out there that would have still upgraded the feet and power cord on their respective CDP's, regardless of the manufacturer. It's just something audiophiles feel that they need to do....it's what they do. The unwavering need to improve their listening experience. And please understand that I am in no way trying to diminish your observations on why the 840C pricing is where it is. I just think that if compromises where made, it surely wasn't in the chassis or the internals. A retailer in my area has a demo model of the 840C with a transparent housing revealing the internals of the player. I'm not going to say its the best, but, this CDP is built. And better than most out there priced significantly higher.
Now regarding the observation about the use of an AVR for amplification. Kiwi, it's an AVR world, and I believe that Cambridge understands that. It all depends on what the owner's goal is for their system
(2 channel and/or multi-channel), and it depends on the AVR. B&K, Anthem, Adcom, Sunfire, Cambridge Audio, Rotel,
NAD, Marantz, Yamaha (Z series), Denon 5308 and 5805, I can go on and on. All of these manufactures have introduced AVR's. Why do I mention these manufacturers? All except for Yamaha, have separates. They have taken the capabilities of their pre/pro's and multi-channel amp combos and put it into one box, stating that these AVR's perform close to the level of the separates. These receivers would do an adequate job handling the 840C. Are they as good as separates? Depends on what AVR and Separates you are comparing. In my honest opinion, I believe that Cambridge designed this CDP for the consumer who desires audiophile quality but is limited by the expense of having that experience. They made a player that could possibly take the owner's existing system to a higher level of performance, without the immediate need of upgrading his or her's entire system. Not saying that one shouldn't upgrade their system to match the 840's performance, but if you have a decent system, you shouldn't feel compelled to trash everything else you have in a immediate fashion. You can have an improved listening experience with the addition of the 740 or the 840C.
Just an opinion.
Thanks again for your input.

Regards.

[ldgibson76]

Hopefully no Cambridge Audio owners will be offended by this, but my ONLY real reason for being reluctant to purchase a CA product has been consumer feedback on quality control....

I've read so many amazing critical reviews for CA products only to check out the consumer feedback and see some really dissapointing complaints about products failing... e.g. the 640C with dual DACs, I read several reviews about one channel dying etc... and I guess what sealed the fear for me was that one of the only 2 times I've auditioned CA gear, the product did something truly strange...

I was in a pretty crappy wannabe-high-end-audio store (it carried many really good lines but set them all up poorly) and I auditioned a CA 540A&C combo with a pair of Quad 21Ls... I put on some good old Billie Jean and had to kill the volume quickly... The CD player was having trouble playing the disc (no idea why, since it played on a NAD and a Marantz CD player with no trouble)... but instead of just giving an error message or taking a while to load etc.... the CD played but sounded like a scratched record, with music coming out and then some awful screaching, breaking up and lines repeating... It was the strangest experience I've ever had with a CD player....

I'm sure many proud CA owners have had trouble free years with their products, but I guess my initial fears combined with that really awful experience, have made me truly reluctant to give CA gear a try....

Hello "Ajani".

I must be a very fortunate soul. I've never had an issue with my 640C v.2. I mean, problem free (knock on wood) and I've owned this CDP for almost 2 years now. I've read consumer reviews also and I've seen the complaints with quality control. But one thing is evident, the sound quality, when it's functioning properly, is beyond anything they've heard before, for the most part. I believe that their QC is no worst than anyone else's out there. Remember, bad news travels 10 times faster than good news! I own a Denon DVD2910. And it's been problem free for 2 years. An awesome universal player. Until now, I've never once mention it in the forum. The same goes with my Yamaha CDC 685 CD changer or my Pioneer Elite DVR-7000 and so forth and so on.....They do exactly what they are supposed to do. And even if I did have a problem, I don't think I would stand on the mountain top and shout about it. But Cambridge Audio is making products that are becoming worthy of attention in it's respective class/category. Moral of the story. Every manufacturer has a hiccup every now and then, and their success is dependent on how they address the and correct the issue....Just an opinion.

Regards.

[ldgibson76]

Does anyone realize that Cambridge Audio has rejuvenated the CDP business, especially with all the crap that being offered to the public on CD's. According to the critics, the recording quality on cd's today is diminishing more and more. Yes, the recording level may be higher, but the clarity and dynamic range could be compromised resulting in unwanted distortion (open thread below). (This not true for all). But, I'm sure we all have heard at least one badly produced CD. So a high quality CDP is almost tantamount to having a decent listening experience. Speaking to a rep at a leading retailer for Cambridge told me that most of the people considering and/or purchasing the Azur product are those who basically conceded to using their DVD player or universal player for CD playback. They would have loved to owned a high quality CDP, but to own one met embezzelling from their kids college fund or selling an internal organ just to have a taste of audiophile like quality. The Rep said that their number one selling product as of right now, by far, is the 840C. And they have a large selection of products available. Every time they receive a shipment, they are already sold. A friggin CD Player! That's pretty strong!

http://www.mindspring.com/~mrichter/dynamics/dynamics.htm

[Ajani]

Hello "Ajani".

I must be a very fortunate soul. I've never had an issue with my 640C v.2. I mean, problem free (knock on wood) and I've owned this CDP for almost 2 years now. I've read consumer reviews also and I've seen the complaints with quality control. But one thing is evident, the sound quality, when it's functioning properly, is beyond anything they've heard before, for the most part. I believe that their QC is no worst than anyone else's out there. Remember, bad news travels 10 times faster than good news! I own a Denon DVD2910. And it's been problem free for 2 years. An awesome universal player. Until now, I've never once mention it in the forum. The same goes with my Yamaha CDC 685 CD changer or my Pioneer Elite DVR-7000 and so forth and so on.....They do exactly what they are supposed to do. And even if I did have a problem, I don't think I would stand on the mountain top and shout about it. But Cambridge Audio is making products that are becoming worthy of attention in it's respective class/category. Moral of the story. Every manufacturer has a hiccup every now and then, and their success is dependent on how they address the and correct the issue....Just an opinion.

Regards.

That's good... I really want to hear more users having had positive experiences with CA products.... Since I've only had two and while one was actually quite good a CA/Monitor Audio RS6 combo, the other (which I described earlier) was tragic....

Since I'm in either the best or worst position to be in as audio lover right now... I need to rebuild my 2 channel setup..... I'm following a lot of threads very closely to know what brands to give serious consideration... and assuming that the CA 740A&C combo is reliable, then it would be high up on my list... based on features (digital volume control, 100 watts and a DAC for use with my computer audio)....

[ldgibson76]

I'd add Monitor Audio, Energy, PSB and for a change of pace... probably Dynaudio and Totem.... It's best to listen to as many speakers as you can, since they best brand for you may well be one you've not heard yet...

Monitor Audio,energy and PSB are above average speaker manufacturers. Unfortunately, not all are available for auditioning in my market area. I'm not traveling outside of a 25 mile radius
in my quest for the perfect speaker system for my needs. I consider myself fortunate to have been able to audition the 4 products in a 5.1 set up, mentioned in my previous post. I will do some research to see if any of the products you've mentioned are available for demonstration in my area. I have an appointment at 2:30 to check out the 6 and 7 series B&W's.:2:
I'll update later.
by the way, the retailer where I listened to the Paradigms with the Marantz told me if I wanted, I could bring in my 640C v.2 and connect it to the Marantz SR9600 to get a better idea of how the system could sound in my home. Not bad huh?!

[ldgibson76]

Being that I have the CA Azur 640C v.2, does anyone know anything about the SID and if I added the SID (Sound Improvement Disc, would or could it improve the performance of CDP?! Is it hype or what?
Any input is welcomed?!

Here's a fine example of a music lover's unwavering need to improve on what he currently has no matter how simplistic the perceived enhancement.

[kiwi_1282001]

Hello "Kiwi". Welcome to Audio Review!

Now regarding the observation about the use of an AVR for amplification. Kiwi, it's an AVR world, and I believe that Cambridge understands that. It all depends on what the owner's goal is for their system (2 channel and/or multi-channel), and it depends on the AVR. B&K, Anthem, Adcom, Sunfire, Cambridge Audio, Rotel, NAD, Marantz, Yamaha (Z series), Denon 5308 and 5805, I can go on and on. All of these manufactures have introduced AVR's. Why do I mention these manufacturers? All except for Yamaha, have separates. They have taken the capabilities of their pre/pro's and multi-channel amp combos and put it into one box, stating that these AVR's perform close to the level of the separates. These receivers would do an adequate job handling the 840C.
Regards.

Thanks for the welcome. I think its a case of matching like for like. When i owned a 640C v2 i connected it to my AVR. No problem with that. When i upgraded to an 840C i connected that to a dedicated two channel amplifier. Why? Because to get the most out of the 840C this is generally the recommended route. There are not too many AVR's out there with balanced XLR inputs. Yet, to get the most out of an 840C you really need to use this connection.

[ldgibson76]

Thanks for the welcome. I think its a case of matching like for like. When i owned a 640C v2 i connected it to my AVR. No problem with that. When i upgraded to an 840C i connected that to a dedicated two channel amplifier. Why? Because to get the most out of the 840C this is generally the recommended route. There are not too many AVR's out there with balanced XLR inputs. Yet, to get the most out of an 840C you really need to use this connection.

Hello Again "Kiwi"!

I concur with "like for like" analogy. Of course, if you have the means to upgrade your current system with XLR capable components, then by all means, do so. That's definitely the best scenario for connectivity and performance.
There is a discussion currently going on in the General Audio section of the forum regarding the possible death of Hi-End audio and the reasons why. The viewpoints are very interesting.
And it seems to be a stateside dilemma. How is hi-end industry doing in New Zealand?!

[kiwi_1282001]

There is a discussion currently going on in the General Audio section of the forum regarding the possible death of Hi-End audio and the reasons why. The viewpoints are very interesting.
And it seems to be a stateside dilemma. How is hi-end industry doing in New Zealand?!

The short answer is the hi-end industry in NZ is not going well. Its a little off topic but i started a thread in AudioENZ last year entitled - "High end stereo - a sunset industry?"

My thesis was that changing demographics, generations, smaller homes etc all mean't that hi-end faced a difficult future. Have you been to a HiFi show lately? If so, have you noticed how old the average hobbist is? This is not a young mans game. The younger generation are no longer paying $30 for a new CD - they are paying $30 for an internet connection and downloading their music for free. The youth of today are not interested in big audio systems which are bolted to the floor of a house. They want music wherever they are and we see the natural outcome of this - mobile MP3 devices.

[audio amateur]

I'd say in general that we're a pretty rare species

[JohnMichael]

Being that I have the CA Azur 640C v.2, does anyone know anything about the SID and if I added the SID (Sound Improvement Disc, would or could it improve the performance of CDP?! Is it hype or what?
Any input is welcomed?!

Here's a fine example of a music lover's unwavering need to improve on what he currently has no matter how simplistic the perceived enhancement.



I have used the SID in both my Marantz CD5001 and Marantz SA8001 and hear a true sonic improvement. Better focus, smoother treble and greater definition when the SID is used. I am not sure how much improvement you will hear with the CA 640C but I would think it would be a benefit. Several members use the SID in various players and report benefits.

[Mr Peabody]

What's the SID, is it that burn in disc you can get from musicdirect? I thought that sounded like "snake oil" but if you guys say it works I might have to check one out.

[Feanor]

What's the SID, is it that burn in disc you can get from musicdirect? I thought that sounded like "snake oil" but if you guys say it works I might have to check one out.

Mr. P, check out this thread (http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=219996#poststop).

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks Feanor. It's not what I thought. They do sell a burn in or tuning disc that is supposed to make your gear sound better after playing it. That's what I thought SID was. I'd be willing to try it but the EAD transport is similar to the Pioneer E-stat described. Are you going to sell your 750p? Is shipping crazy many from Canada?

[Feanor]

Thanks Feanor. It's not what I thought. They do sell a burn in or tuning disc that is supposed to make your gear sound better after playing it. That's what I thought SID was. I'd be willing to try it but the EAD transport is similar to the Pioneer E-stat described. Are you going to sell your 750p? Is shipping crazy many from Canada?

My 750p? I'm drawing a blank: what are you referring to?

Shipping is not much more expensive for comparable distances from Canada than inside the US, however depending on the selling prince, you will get dinged for brokerage and possibly duty and taxes.

[Mr Peabody]

It wasn't you that was using the Adcom in passive mode?

[blackraven]

Hey Kiwi, my 840c has sorbithane feet on the bottom not plastic. And about the power cord, I am so not convinced that it makes a difference in sound. I have a Musichall CDP and it supposedly sounds better with an upgraded power cord. Well the company I bought it from supplied a high quality upgraded audioquest power cord along with the stock cord. There is no discernable difference in sound. I feel that companies who claim that high end power cords make a difference are pulling the wool over your eyes.

And even if CA is cutting corners with the power cord and feet, what are they saving-$10-50's at most. The power cord that comes with the 840c is your standard computer power cord.

[Feanor]

It wasn't you that was using the Adcom in passive mode?

But I sold that sometime ago. I'm using a Sonic Frontiers LINE 1 nowadays.

(Some day I tell the sad story of the sale of the Adcom, on Audiogon, to a fellow in the U.S. I'll always feel bad about that.)

[Mr Peabody]

Ah, I remember you have the SF, I missed when you sold the 750. I probably wouldn't have been interested then though. What has me interested is my recent purchase of the 5500, I'd like to put it with the 750 in passive mode to see how it does. I've been prejudice against the 750 since I heard it verses the 450 in the store and didn't hear much difference. But with all the reviews and buzz I'm second guessing that experience and wondering if something wasn't right.

[Mr Peabody]

It may depend on your power company, neighborhood, house and gear as to whether power cords help. There are a lot of variables. Me personally, I have had good experience with upgrading power cords. I brought home a Transparent to try and was so impressed I went back and bought one for every component that allowed the upgrade. My phono stage and CD player had the most dramatic improvement. Also, I'm not sure why but my LINN amp also improved by a large margin with an upgrade, I bought a used MIT Z cable for it.

[jrhymeammo]

Hey Mr. P.

PM me your addy. I will send you my SID, if you are interested. You can try it out for a 2-3 weeks.

JRA

[kiwi_1282001]

Hey Kiwi, my 840c has sorbithane feet on the bottom not plastic. And about the power cord, I am so not convinced that it makes a difference in sound. I have a Musichall CDP and it supposedly sounds better with an upgraded power cord. Well the company I bought it from supplied a high quality upgraded audioquest power cord along with the stock cord. There is no discernable difference in sound. I feel that companies who claim that high end power cords make a difference are pulling the wool over your eyes.

And even if CA is cutting corners with the power cord and feet, what are they saving-$10-50's at most. The power cord that comes with the 840c is your standard computer power cord.

Greetings Blackraven. Thanks for the reply.

Re footers - the marketing blurb says that the 840C has "specially designed vibration absorbing feet". This is a stretch. If you care to pull the 840C apart you will find the screwmount is damped down the inside of the foot. The cheaper Azur players have a hard mount. Cambridge use a solid outer polymer which in their view makes the unit more stable. The feet most definately are not sorbothane, but an undisclosed compound. The footers are a widely acknowledged weakness of the 840C. When checking with Cambridge Audio they advised me that an isolation platform is a good investment if looking for an upgrade.

Re power cords - i understand that some people have trouble with the concept of accepting that a 2m mains lead can make an audible improvement. I initially was one of the people. But one fine day i tried it for myself and at the end of a 1/2 day of swopping between various power cables (including the stock one provided) i concluded that the stock cable was complete rubbish. I don't know about audioquest but my Nordost power cable makes a fantastic improvement to the 840C's sound. How it does this - i have no idea! If you are happy with the stock power cord - great.

IMHO and experience an isolation upgrade and a power lead upgrade and making use of the balanced (XLR) connection - in combination - takes the 840C into another league - challenging rivals of more than twice the price. I am just soo happy with this product. The standard product sound great - but there is plenty of scope [if you have inclination and maybe the Faith] to make it sound even better.....

[blackraven]

[QUOTE=kiwi_1282001]Greetings Blackraven. Thanks for the reply.

Re footers - the marketing blurb says that the 840C has "specially designed vibration absorbing feet". This is a stretch. If you care to pull the 840C apart you will find the screwmount is damped down the inside of the foot. The cheaper Azur players have a hard mount. Cambridge use a solid outer polymer which in their view makes the unit more stable. The feet most definately are not sorbothane, but an undisclosed compound. The footers are a widely acknowledged weakness of the 840C. When checking with Cambridge Audio they advised me that an isolation platform is a good investment if looking for an upgrade.


I cant comment about your power cord, (my audioquest is almost 2x's as thick as the stock power cord, and it also has an EMF filter built in along with a higher quality plug. Maybe I have higher quality power lines coming into my house which is only 16yrs old.)
but the feet on my unit looks as feels like the sorbithane on another piece of equipment I have. Whether it definitely is sorbithane on the 840c, I cant confirm it. I have no doubt that CA could improve on the vibration isolation of the unit

[ldgibson76]

I have used the SID in both my Marantz CD5001 and Marantz SA8001 and hear a true sonic improvement. Better focus, smoother treble and greater definition when the SID is used. I am not sure how much improvement you will hear with the CA 640C but I would think it would be a benefit. Several members use the SID in various players and report benefits.


Thanks for the input "JM"!

I am going to order it see if it makes a difference. I'll let you know how it goes!

[kiwi_1282001]

[

but the feet on my unit looks as feels like the sorbithane on another piece of equipment I have. Whether it definitely is sorbithane on the 840c, I cant confirm it. I have no doubt that CA could improve on the vibration isolation of the unit


Just so we are 100% clear, i asked Cambridge Audio directly whether the feet on the 840C are sorbothane. Their answer was No. :wink5:

[blackraven]

I believe you!

[Feanor]

I believe you!

A relatively cheap source is Edmund Scientific's (http://scientificsonline.com/product.asp?pn=3037000&cmss=Sorbothane). This half the cost of Sorbothane sheets from audio vendors, and much, much cheaper than brand name isoloation feet, e.g. BrightStar IsoNodes (http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=BSISO).

[blackraven]

Here's an update on the 840c. I have over 100hrs playing time and I have to say that the sound can cause a bit of fatigue on certain recordings. For music with a lot of detail like jazz it sounds great. Vocals are fantastick. Overall I'm very pleased with the sound. But I find rock music the most fatigueing. I find my modified musichall better for rock. I can listen to the MH all day and not tire. I think with a warmer amp the 840c would match better. My adcom is a little on the neutral to bright side. I'm going to see what happens at 200hrs burn in, which seems to be the magical number for the best sound from the 840c before I decide which new 2ch amp I buy.

[Mr Peabody]

You might try picking up an Adcom 5500 to strap to your receiver. I am really amazed with that amp. It's more balanced than the 5400 I had, more bottom end athority and not as bright, a tamer upper midrange. The way you describe your set up the 5500 could be a nice fit to balance things. Also a very strong 200 wpc don't hurt.

I forget what amps you were considering. You should probably gravitate toward warmer character amps like Rotel, NAD Master or Musical Fidelity. If you think your Adcom/CA is fatiguing you wouldn't want to use a CA amp or other livelier models.

[Feanor]

Here's an update on the 840c. I have over 100hrs playing time and I have to say that the sound can cause a bit of fatigue on certain recordings. For music with a lot of detail like jazz it sounds great. Vocals are fantastick. Overall I'm very pleased with the sound. But I find rock music the most fatigueing. I find my modified musichall better for rock. I can listen to the MH all day and not tire. I think with a warmer amp the 840c would match better. My adcom is a little on the neutral to bright side. I'm going to see what happens at 200hrs burn in, which seems to be the magical number for the best sound from the 840c before I decide which new 2ch amp I buy.

B/R, I'd love to hear the 840C passed through my tube preamp and thence my Monarchy amps. Hello! Didn't I recommend you upgrade your amp? :p I dare say it are the real source of your issue rather than the Cambridge. That said, I find rock music fatiguing regardless of what it's played on. ;)

I owned an Adcom 555II which was a pleasant, sliglty warm and "dark" sounding amp, but it wasn't in the big leagues for resolution.

[Mr Peabody]

I haven't A/B'd the 5500 with much, I've had my Krell in that system which isn't quite a fair fight, the 5500 is cleaner than the 5400. I don't know if it has a lack of real resolution or if it's the darker warm sound that gives it that impression. I do know with my CJ DAC the system is pretty impressive. And that's with just the 450 preamp. This is why I'm so interested in trying a better preamp. It's hard to say how an amp will work in another system for synergy but my system seems to have it for now. Another thing that helps with resolution is using Dynaudio Audience 60's. I'm just taken back by the pleasing sound of this some what modest system. It should also be noted that this particular system is mostly used for Rock and Pop as it's in my work out room. This room is also still in need of some treatment so I wonder how this system would sound in a more deadened room. It may not come off as good.

[blackraven]

My current amp sounds great with the modded Music Hall CDP which has a warmer sound since being modified. I plan on up grading my amp to a 2 ch amp with at least 200wpc. I've been looking at used Classe, Mac, Bryston and CJ amps to name a few. I might even go with a tube preamp like a used AR. I cant afford to buy one just yet. I was even thinking about a B&K amp for its warm rich sound even though its a lower tier amp, but I think I'll wait and go with a higher quality amp.

Its not that the 840c sounds bad with my current equipment, its just that it can be a little bright and annoying after a while with certain recordings. I still love the CDP and I can use my MH for the brighter sounding music for now. I would still buy the 840c knowing what I know now. The detail is just amazing for a CDP in this price range.

I a few weeks I will be running my HD digital cable TV audio through the DAC of the 840c. I'll let you know how that works out.

[Mr Peabody]

BR, I think you'd enjoy a CJ set up. There were some good deals on used CJ preamps on Audiogon.

[nightflier]

...And even if CA is cutting corners with the power cord and feet, what are they saving-$10-50's at most. The power cord that comes with the 840c is your standard computer power cord.

Sorry if I keep asking the same question, but cutting corners on feet and a power cord saves them maybe $50 on the player. I seriously doubt those were the only corners that were cut.

I'm currently using a Audio Refinement Complete player connected to an older Aragon DAC. I know that's quite a bit less expensive, but I've listened to at least a dozen combinations, and so far this setup still sounds best to my ears. But I do plan on replacing it. The CDP is getting a bit long in the tooth and that plastic disk tray really does worry me. I'm actually amazed that in all the years I've owned it I've never had a problem with it. And the DAC is a tank although I have heard better ones in other systems.

So I'm on the lookout for a new player, budget is around $2K (new). Rega, Simaudio, Bryston, and Music Hall / Creek, are on my list, but now I'm told that the Cambridge 840c will give these a run for the money at $700+ less. So realistically, is this player in the same league as these other $2K-ish players?

(I have a few different brands of squishy feet, even Mapleshade brass cones, and a whole pile of power cords, so that's not an issue).

[jrhymeammo]

Have you considered Benchmark DAC with USB? It has a volumn control so you can plug it directly to your amp.

That little box is the most amazing thing I have heard in a long time. If you have loads of Lossless files, you may never reach out for a CD ever again.

Just somem to think about, since you are into that whole computer thang thang.....

JRA

[blackraven]

I read a review of the 840c and there was a comment about how other CD manufacturers
are wondering how Cambridge Audio can make a CDP so good and sell it at that price.
The answer could be lower profit margins, better elctronics like the dual Anogram Technology DAC's and up converting music to 384kHz. Most people don't know the mark up on eletronic parts, but is is tremendous. I use to work for my fathers computer company and saw the mark up on parts purchased for their computers and I couldnt believe that mark ups were up to 1000%.

I dont really believe that CA cut corners. You could say that about any piece of electronic equipment. When electronic equipment is designed the company usually has a price point in mind and design their product accordingly. I guess if you want to call that cutting corners, then every product on the market can be accused of that. If you want a CDP with top of the line every thing then your going to pay through the nose on a $20,000 CDP that probably cost less than 2K to build.

As far as CA not using sorbithane feet and a $100 power cord, show me some studies where it makes a huge diffenence in sound. Sorbithane feet will only help if you have significant problems with vibration due to placement of the CDP.

CA is out to sell CDP's at a reasonable cost to consumers and tacking on another $50-100 for power cord's and feet is not in their cost-sound benefit. If these things made such a huge difference in sound, dont you think that all companies would include them on their equipment?

[Ajani]

I read a review of the 840c and there was a comment about how other CD manufacturers
are wondering how Cambridge Audio can make a CDP so good and sell it at that price.
The answer could be lower profit margins, better elctronics like the dual Anogram Technology DAC's and up converting music to 384kHz. Most people don't know the mark up on eletronic parts, but is is tremendous. I use to work for my fathers computer company and saw the mark up on parts purchased for their computers and I couldnt believe that mark ups were up to 1000%.

I dont really believe that CA cut corners. You could say that about any piece of electronic equipment. When electronic equipment is designed the company usually has a price point in mind and design their product accordingly. I guess if you want to call that cutting corners, then every product on the market can be accused of that. If you want a CDP with top of the line every thing then your going to pay through the nose on a $20,000 CDP that probably cost less than 2K to build.

As far as CA not using sorbithane feet and a $100 power cord, show me some studies where it makes a huge diffenence in sound. Sorbithane feet will only help if you have significant problems with vibration due to placement of the CDP.

CA is out to sell CDP's at a reasonable cost to consumers and tacking on another $50-100 for power cord's and feet is not in their cost-sound benefit. If these things made such a huge difference in sound, dont you think that all companies would include them on their equipment?

There are a couple of factors that may explain how CA can produce a great CD player at such a low cost:

1) The Gap between the best and the rest is not as wide as it used to be.... looking at the number of Stereophile Class A rated digital components in the under $2K price range suggests that you can get a top quality CD player for the price of the CA.... The Rega Apollo, Benchmark DAC 1, Marantz SA8001 and Quad 99CDP are all Class A and substantially less that $2K... and based on the review of the Musical Fidelity X-DAC V8, I expect it will be Class A rated as well....

2) CA seems to have gone for a different approach to CD playback.... CD technology is pretty old by this point, so while many brands just go for the established dac/op amps/upsampling... a few like Rega and CA try something a little (or a lot) different and get great results.... In other words: The CA has excellent build quality for it's price range and even a bit above, but the real magic maybe the use of higher upsampling than other players and not that it is built like a $6K player....

[Mr Peabody]

No, I think manufacturers make an adequate product with adequate power cords and feet. Can you buy better, yes. The manufacturer leaves that up to the purchaser to decide if they want to tweak the machine. Just like when you buy a car the tires are adequate for the vehicle but you could always buy Michelin or Perrelli. The performance of most vehicles are adequate off the lot but some choose to switch out engine parts etc. for more horse power and performance. You can't assume a manufacturer puts a product out at a certain price and uses the best parts possible for that product. No matter what a manufacturer says about how well they tested their gear, there will always be some one to roll the tubes, replace the caps with better ones etc. For those of us who don't know which end of a solder iron to use we try power cords, feet etc. I've had excellent results with upgraded power cords. I personally believe how well a tweak works depends on the environment the particular gear is in. One person's home may have different negatives that effect equipment than another. I feel this is one of the main reasons for controversy over tweaks. That and the fact that some shoot an idea or product down before they actually try it. Face it, there's a lot in this world we can't explain. Believe me, before trying a power cord, I didn't believe they had any effect either. I couldn't deny the improvement I heard though and eventually replaced every power cord that was detachable in my system. I haven't played around much with vibration isolation. My floor is carpet over concrete and I didn't think vibration was a factor. On the other hand I really don't know that much about how it gets into a system other than being transferred.

[blackraven]

I agree with both Anjani and Mr. P. As far as power cords go. My MusicHall CDP can with its original power cord and an upgraded AQ power cord which was supposed to make a significant difference in sound. There's not one bit of difference that my family or my friends can hear. Thats my only experience with power cords. Of course I'm one of those non believers that $1k IC's and speaker cables can make a dramatic difference in sound.

Being a doctor, I see the power of placebo every day. I guess I'm cynical and a skeptic:crazy:

[Feanor]

I agree with both Anjani and Mr. P. As far as power cords go. My MusicHall CDP can with its original power cord and an upgraded AQ power cord which was supposed to make a significant difference in sound. There's not one bit of difference that my family or my friends can hear. Thats my only experience with power cords. Of course I'm one of those non believers that $1k IC's and speaker cables can make a dramatic difference in sound.

Being a doctor, I see the power of placebo every day. I guess I'm cynical and a skeptic:crazy:

I have used (and still do) a number of low-end and DIY shielded power cords in both my stereo and HT systems; I have never heard the slightest difference from their use. Maybe I'm just luck to have a EMI/RFI insensitive environment; I do use EMI/RFI filtering surge surpressors on most equipment including all digital stuff.

What should I do to hear the wonderful improvement that so many hear? I suppose I ought to try the normal audiophile solution: spend a lot more money :biggrin5: :ciappa:

Although I've thought I've heard minute differences between interconnects and speaker cables, but -- and I'll be the first to admit -- it might have been my imagination. :blush2: My current self-delusion is that tubes sound different, e.g. a "huge improvement" (in the audiophile sense) rolling Sovtek 6922 for Amperex 6922 'PQ's in my preamp.

[blackraven]

I use EMI/RFI filters on all my wiring as well, plus the area I live in is relatively new with new power stations and I only live about 10 miles from the power company.

I wish one of the audio magazines had the balls to do a large double blind study on cheap vs expensive IC's, speaker cable, power cords and amplifiers. It would be so easy to do, but I guess they would loose their sponsors if it showed that the whole cable thing is all placebo. It would be nice to settle this once and for all.

FYI, here's an update on the 840c, I have over 200 hours of break in and the sound seems to have improved some more. It doesnt seem as fatiguing or bright. Now I dont know if its me getting use to the sound or if there really is an improvemet. I guess all that counts is that I like it alot better now.

[E-Stat]

What should I do to hear the wonderful improvement that so many hear? I suppose I ought to try the normal audiophile solution: spend a lot more money .
You have a standing invitation here in central Arkansas. I use aftermarket cords in two of my systems. Forget about price.


Although I've thought I've heard minute differences between interconnects and speaker cables, but -- and I'll be the first to admit -- it might have been my imagination. :blush2: My current self-delusion is that tubes sound different, e.g. a "huge improvement" (in the audiophile sense) rolling Sovtek 6922 for Amperex 6922 'PQ's in my preamp.
Let's just call them subtle, but present differences. :)

rw

[E-Stat]

...plus the area I live in is relatively new with new power stations and I only live about 10 miles from the power company.
That's the "miles and miles" canard that completely misses the point. No one argues that the quality of the power delivered by the sub station is noisy. The source of noise lies entirely within one's home: digital devices of all sorts including cable boxes, CD /DVD players, TiVOs, wireless phones, microwave ovens, computers, routers, access points, even my computer controlled washer and drying cabinet. Digital hash is either radiated directly in the space or injected back to the AC.


I guess all that counts is that I like it a lot better now.
That is the case with all things audio.

rw

[nightflier]

Someone also suggested I add the NAD M5 SACD player to the list (their Masters Series), or maybe even the M55 universal player. More gear to audition....

[blackraven]

The M5 is a very good sounding CD player.

[antiphase]

This may be somewhat OT, but I just couldn't restrain myself. Mr. O'Shag, no offense towards you, not at all. There was just something in the Audioenz editor's voice that rung a deep note in me:


Brent Burmester of Audioenz in New Zealand wrote this review of the 840c in comparson to the 740c..

... <nondescript tech hubbub>

... <ahem, emo audiofile hubbub>

... <some loose statements>

... <trying to assert authority>

... The 840C is just such a something. If you're at the point in your hi-fi development where you need a player to help you understand what a performer means by their music, and those sort of players are never cheap, I'd advise starting your search here. If you can't afford more, just get one. "


The touching poetry and deep truth of this statement neigh brings tears to my eyes. Don't you pity the forlorn masses of ordinary non-audiophile beggars, who haven't even begun to understand what any performance might mean? And even less what some artist is trying to get across? Mr. Burmester evidently feels the pain and misery of these wanderers in the dark, and generously offers the poor lads to buy just one, if they're out of cash. So they, for a reasonably fair price, might have the first and fundamental stepping stone to the Bliss of understanding music just the same as Mr. Burmester.

Ofcourse, later on they will need to spend a whole lot more: understanding doesn't come cheap, but fortunately, it can be bought directly from Mr. Burmester's friends.

Naturally, there will be evil tongues accusing the beloved magazine editor of a condescending attitude. They will say Mr. Burmester is a hypocrite, denying other people their natural right to their own experiences, regardless of whether they spent big bux on his private little hifi-club or not. They might even suggest he should try going to a live concert once in a while (woo, shudder, waste costly audio-bucks on miserable live music). Or, goodness forbids, to have good sex while a rotten consumer box plays some damn tune she really likes.

Fortunately, I don't buy it, because I do believe Mr. Burmester is God. And slightly more on-topic: I do believe the 840 is a fine piece of equipment. But I'm not going to buy it either.

[Ajani]

This may be somewhat OT, but I just couldn't restrain myself. Mr. O'Shag, no offense towards you, not at all. There was just something in the Audioenz editor's voice that rung a deep note in me:



The touching poetry and deep truth of this statement neigh brings tears to my eyes. Don't you pity the forlorn masses of ordinary non-audiophile beggars, who haven't even begun to understand what any performance might mean? And even less what some artist is trying to get across? Mr. Burmester evidently feels the pain and misery of these wanderers in the dark, and generously offers the poor lads to buy just one, if they're out of cash. So they, for a reasonably fair price, might have the first and fundamental stepping stone to the Bliss of understanding music just the same as Mr. Burmester.

Ofcourse, later on they will need to spend a whole lot more: understanding doesn't come cheap, but fortunately, it can be bought directly from Mr. Burmester's friends.

Naturally, there will be evil tongues accusing the beloved magazine editor of a condescending attitude. They will say Mr. Burmester is a hypocrite, denying other people their natural right to their own experiences, regardless of whether they spent big bux on his private little hifi-club or not. They might even suggest he should try going to a live concert once in a while (woo, shudder, waste costly audio-bucks on miserable live music). Or, goodness forbids, to have good sex while a rotten consumer box plays some damn tune she really likes.

Fortunately, I don't buy it, because I do believe Mr. Burmester is God. And slightly more on-topic: I do believe the 840 is a fine piece of equipment. But I'm not going to buy it either.

LOL... that is one hell of a first post..... welcome to AR....

[antiphase]

LOL... that is one hell of a first post..... welcome to AR....

Thank you Ajani, for a warm welcome.

[nightflier]

OK, here's a question: how useful are the inputs on the 840c to use it as a seperate DAC? Has anyone tried this? After all, it upconverts everything to 384k, right? Does it rival say, the Benchmark DAC that everyone is so gaga over?

[bobsticks]

stuff

That was freakin' hilarious. Good timing, old sport.

Welcome to the club.



---sticks

[blackraven]

I havent used the 840c as a DAC but eventually I will get around to it and will post a review.
I'm still wanting to run my digital cable into the 840c.

[O'Shag]

This may be somewhat OT, but I just couldn't restrain myself. Mr. O'Shag, no offense towards you, not at all. There was just something in the Audioenz editor's voice that rung a deep note in me:



The touching poetry and deep truth of this statement neigh brings tears to my eyes. Don't you pity the forlorn masses of ordinary non-audiophile beggars, who haven't even begun to understand what any performance might mean? And even less what some artist is trying to get across? Mr. Burmester evidently feels the pain and misery of these wanderers in the dark, and generously offers the poor lads to buy just one, if they're out of cash. So they, for a reasonably fair price, might have the first and fundamental stepping stone to the Bliss of understanding music just the same as Mr. Burmester.

Ofcourse, later on they will need to spend a whole lot more: understanding doesn't come cheap, but fortunately, it can be bought directly from Mr. Burmester's friends.

Naturally, there will be evil tongues accusing the beloved magazine editor of a condescending attitude. They will say Mr. Burmester is a hypocrite, denying other people their natural right to their own experiences, regardless of whether they spent big bux on his private little hifi-club or not. They might even suggest he should try going to a live concert once in a while (woo, shudder, waste costly audio-bucks on miserable live music). Or, goodness forbids, to have good sex while a rotten consumer box plays some damn tune she really likes.

Fortunately, I don't buy it, because I do believe Mr. Burmester is God. And slightly more on-topic: I do believe the 840 is a fine piece of equipment. But I'm not going to buy it either.

?? Whatever your smokin I want some of that :out: