Snakeoil/Are some products able to justify their high costs? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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Ajani
01-22-2008, 05:20 PM
I know this is a constant debate among audiophiles, non-audiophiles and haters (lol).... but are there products that can actually justify their high costs, or is the high-end made up mostly of high profit margins and snakeoil?

Snakeoil arguements

1) Expensive/Luxury products generally have high profit margins, since they can't make much profit based on selling high quantities. i.e. How many $100k speakers can a manufacturer sell in a year compared to the number of $1K speakers?

2) A great deal of the cost of high end products are spent on improving appearance rather than sound quality. e.g. Would you expect a real wood veneer on a $500 speaker? Probably not, a cheap vinyl one would be appropriate... But would you expect an expensive veneer on a $5K speaker? I don't think a cheap vinyl finish is gonna cut it at that price...

Some good examples of how much finishes can inflate the cost of speakers can be seen by custom ordering speakers from internet manufacturers like Norh and Axiom. I remember checking out what it would cost to get a High gloss white veneer on some Axiom towers versus one of the standard finishes.... I was able to turn a $1k speaker into a $2k speaker just by changing the finish and If I'm not mistaken the site made sure to state that the finishes do not improve sound quality (or maybe I read that in a review as well). Norh has a choice between real and synthetic marble for their speakers... and they state on their site that the much cheaper synthetic sounds exactly the same, but just doesn't look as good....

Counter Points

I notice that some of the strongest advocates of the quality of expensive gear are planar lovers....

Generally planars don't have quite as swanky finishes as comparably priced cone speakers.... and the planar technology seems to justify their high costs... simply because larger and larger planars are needed to generate more bass. so a modest increase in bass may require doubling the size of the speaker... and its not unreasonable to expect that doubling the speaker size might double the costs....

Also, Since many of these speakers need a lot of power to drive them... it requires more powerful amps... more watts = more $$$$$....

I haven't really heard a great arguement for expensive CD players yet though....

Anyway, what are your views on the age old question? And feel free to share your experiences

blackraven
01-22-2008, 05:29 PM
I think that high end audio is way over priced. Especially when you look inside as see cheap components in some high end equipment. But I guess, you have to consider the research and development cost's as well as retooling to make the product as well as advertising and marketing expenses. Also, you have to consider that the smaller companies that make high end audio have to charge more to make a profit as opposed to a company like yamaha for instance which can live with a smaller profit margin because of the volume it moves and well as the resources it has at its disposal.

Ajani
01-22-2008, 07:07 PM
I think that high end audio is way over priced. Especially when you look inside as see cheap components in some high end equipment. But I guess, you have to consider the research and development cost's as well as retooling to make the product as well as advertising and marketing expenses. Also, you have to consider that the smaller companies that make high end audio have to charge more to make a profit as opposed to a company like yamaha for instance which can live with a smaller profit margin because of the volume it moves and well as the resources it has at its disposal.

While I agree that most of high end audio is overpriced, I actually encourage it in some circumstances....

I really like to see statement products being made by manufcaturers like B&W, Musical Fidelity, Revel & Marantz... simply because they are then able to use some of the technology from their expensive products in their more affordable gear.... So I like to see R&D expenditure recovered on signature pieces and then employed cheaply in the budget stuff....

I remember comparing the B&W CM1s with a pair of 805S and being thoroughly impressed with how close the two sounded despite the 3:1 price difference. In fact, I suspect that if the CM1 used the same size woofer as 805S, then the differences would have been negligible.

blackraven
01-22-2008, 07:17 PM
Well thats the benefit of R&D in esoteric and high tech electronics-the trickle down effect. And some times a company just wants to show off what its capable of like Daimler-Chrysler did a few years ago when the built the ME412 concept super car. It was a quad turbo 12cylinder with 850Hp and projected 250mph top speed. They had it here in the auto show 2yrs ago. That car had no function other than to show off.

www.exoticcarsite.com/pages/chrysler_me412_concept.htm

O'Shag
01-22-2008, 09:14 PM
There is definitely a disturbing trend of prices rising in huge chunks, especially after a favorable review. This I find off-putting. I wouldn't buy a product for $7000, that I knew four months earlier was $4,000.

The ratio of price/performance is not in balance in many instances. I would have to say that the field of Audio, more than any other, has in some ways gone over the top in this regard. There will be a correction soon though, with the recession taking hold.

Snake-oil. Well of course, it exists in the Audio market, probably more than most. But I think the snake-oil factor is prevelent in many different markets. With respect to our audio passion, one just has to use common sense, and hold fast to judging primarily from what one hears for oneself. Our ears will tell us if there is a difference or not. Ultimately - listen to the system, cable, tweak, speaker,source etc. and do not take what we read or hear for the absolute truth, but more an indicator of what others find to be a worthwhile upgrade/purchase.

Feanor
01-23-2008, 04:14 AM
I know this is a constant debate among audiophiles, non-audiophiles and haters (lol).... but are there products that can actually justify their high costs, or is the high-end made up mostly of high profit margins and snakeoil?
...


I had two major eye-opening events that happened in the last 5-6 years that involved what you (or some) might call "snakeoil" products.

First, I heard my first planar product: Magneplanar MMG's. (Many years before I had heard some electrostatics but they were a distant memory). I won't be abandoning planars anytime soon: "in the room with you" sound.

Second, I heard a pair of Monarchy monoblock amplifiers. This was my first exposure to above mid-fi amplification in my own system: grid-free, smooth, and wonderfully transparent -- kicked the crap out of the NAD I had been using.

None of my components, however, is anywhere close to the $5000+ range, (although I would certainly spend it if I had it, at least for speakers).

johnny p
01-23-2008, 05:08 AM
I shop based on sound, and wouldn't consider ordering up any high-end equipment, even the Apogee Grands or whatever people rave on, without auditioning them myself first.

Ajani
01-23-2008, 05:34 AM
I had two major eye-opening events that happened in the last 5-6 years that involved what you (or some) might call "snakeoil" products.

First, I heard my first planar product: Magneplanar MMG's. (Many years before I had heard some electrostatics but they were a distant memory). I won't be abandoning planars anytime soon: "in the room with you" sound.

Second, I heard a pair of Monarchy monoblock amplifiers. This was my first exposure to above mid-fi amplification in my own system: grid-free, smooth, and wonderfully transparent -- kicked the crap out of the NAD I had been using.

None of my components, however, is anywhere close to the $5000+ range, (although I would certainly spend it if I had it, at least for speakers).

I hope my original post didn't come off as implying that I think Planars are 'snakeoil', since I'm actually a planar fan (Well Electrostats anyway. I wasn't really moved by the Maggies I heard, but I can certainly appreciate that they have a unique sound).

blackraven
01-23-2008, 11:58 AM
No offense taken on the planars, but Magnepans are a true bargain in the Hi-Fi world IMO. The quality of sound from the MMG's, MG12's, QR1.6's and 3.6's are truly a bargain compared to other speakers in their price range. Now the question is, how much do they really cost to make? I'd bet the markup is very high. How much can a bunch of magnets, mylar, a small amount of wood, fabric and a cross over cost? And if you saw the Magnepan factory you would not be impressed.

When I was 17, I used to work in an all in one discount toy store, bike shop and patio furniture store called Red's in Brooklyn, NY. They had the lowest prices in the state. We would get shipments of merchandise in and I would have to do the pricing. The markup on most things were ten to 100 times what we paid for them!