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Bill K Davis
01-14-2008, 02:54 PM
I read about a turntable tweak having to do with playing records through a tape deck output instead of the preamp output. Something about avoiding the electronics of the preamp output. Can someone clarify this vague memory,of something I stumbled on on the internet, but can't find again? Thanks.(I confused everyone because I forgot to mention I'm using a Sansui 9090 receiver as a preamp for my Jolida amp.) Sorry.

dean_martin
01-14-2008, 03:25 PM
I would think the signal would still have to go through the receiver's preamp section whether it came directly from the 'table, the tape deck or external phono amp, but I'm not sure I understand how the signal is routed in your example.

Anyhow, I replied because I use my tape deck as a monitor for my tuner. It works well and I haven't noticed any sound degradation compared to going straight into an input in my integrated amp's preamp section. The preamp section in my amp doesn't have a "tape out" or "preamp out" so if I want to record something to tape (which doesn't happen often these days) I have to connect the source to the tape deck's input and the tape deck's output to an input on my integrated. Even without doing much recording these days, I still like the separate channel tweakability and level meters the tape deck provides. If I played records through my tape deck, I would have to connect the turntable's output to my outboard phono section which would run to the tape deck then out to the integrated amp. I haven't tried that because I have too many cables running all over as it is. Sorry this wasn't much help, but not many folks post about using their tape decks. I thought your post was interesting.

Mr Peabody
01-14-2008, 07:41 PM
I've heard of people running their turntable into a preamp to use the phono stage when their regular one didn't have one.

Are you talking receiver or a stereo preamp? Your turntable would go into a receiver's phono input, I don't see anyway to re-route it. It would also seem a tape monitor loop would be less desirable because each input ties into it, where other input paths would be direct through unless the monitor was engaged.

JohnMichael
01-15-2008, 09:20 AM
In a some what realted thought the Graham Slee Gram Amp 3 claims to use studio tape head preamp technology.

http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/preamps/gram_amp_3_fanfare.htm

Bill K Davis
02-14-2008, 10:52 AM
Shock and dismay, that nobody could remember this old tweak. I remember.The tweak is to play lps from the tape record output of the preamp,directly to the amp. instead of using the preamp output .The preamp output must be disconnected:16: :16: . This,for some reason ,gives a better signal,than playing straight through the preamp output. I'm using a Sansui 9090 as a preamp for my Jolida amp, and I believe there is a very audible improvement. Much fuller sound. I was recording lps on tape,and noticed my tapes sounded better than my lps. This jogged my memory. Hopefully, I've revived this tweak,even though I don't understand the reasons it works.

markw
02-14-2008, 11:28 AM
I don't think it's that we don't "rremember" that tweak, but it's more of a workaround than a tweak and your post was worded unclearly.

No matter how it's worded. a magnetic cartridge must go through a phono preamp, where a RIAA equalization network is incorporated into a low-level preamplifier to bring it up to a line level. This is generally done before a selector in an amplifier of some sort. If not, then we wouldn't have been able to record vinyl tracks on tape decks.

A preamp's tape output generally immediately follows the source selector and is before any other processing. If you tap the signal here, before the preamp's volume control, unless the upstream component offer a volume control, you'll be playing it flat out.

A preamp output is after the selector and all other signal modification (volume, tone, balance, etc...) has been done and can be above line level, and is ready to be fed to a power amp.

What it sounds like you're doing is simply using the 9090 as an oversized phono preamp and possibly a source selector, which is no biggie and a perfectly valid option. That option has been common knowledge around here for years and has been suggested when one has not yet purchased a separate phono preamp, which is needed with most modern amps/receivers.

That's also a nifty way to use the receiver's tuner with that integrated as well!

To feed a preamp output to a line level input into another integrated has never been considered a viable option due to the possibility (probability) of overdriving the target amplifier. A tape output, yes, but never a preamp output.

markw
02-14-2008, 11:54 AM
In a some what realted thought the Graham Slee Gram Amp 3 claims to use studio tape head preamp technology.

http://www.gspaudio.co.uk/preamps/gram_amp_3_fanfare.htmthat has me curioious. It's still basicaly a high-gain preamp, not unlike a phono preamp, but with NARTB instead of RIAA equilization applied. At least they have been since I first read about 'em in the 1959 RCA Receiving Tube manual.*

(with aplolgies to melvin)

SlumpBuster
02-14-2008, 02:52 PM
No, no, no, no, no... this still doesn't make any sense. Assuming the Jolida is a power amp and not an integrated amp, then the tape out would still have to be variable and inline with the Sansui volume control. I think that is a fair assumption when the assertion is "I'm using the Sansui as a preamp to my Jolida amp." Unless (and this is what I think is going on here) the Jolida has a front mounted gain control that is being used as a volume knob to prevent the full line level signal from being played flat out.

This thread hurted my brain box.

Bill K Davis
02-14-2008, 06:13 PM
Ok, the Jolida amp(202) is only a power amp, and Markw is correct,the purpose is to bypass tone and volume controls for a purer signal. There is no problem controlling volume at the power amp as there is no problem controlling volume into a tape recorder. This clarifies it for me. Does anybody know if using my Sansui 9090 as a huge preamp is a good choice? I figure ,both Sansui and preamp technology were peaking in '77, when it was made.

SlumpBuster
02-14-2008, 07:16 PM
That makes more sense. Your tape output must be variable rather than fixed. Most tape out, IME, are fixed with the recording level controlled by the tape recorder itself. If indeed your tape out is variable the difference you are perceiving could be the result of the tape output having a different voltage output than the main outs.

Mr Peabody
02-14-2008, 07:52 PM
Either that or he is listening with the tape monitor on which would allow you to adjust the volume but it stumps me as to how there can be any sound difference. Unless the deck was a 3 head and he thinks the sound of the tape head sounds better.

You might want to look for a dedicated preamp. I believe a separate preamp would have better quality over your receiver's preamp section. The preamp is highly suspect if you really hear any sound quality difference and not just picking up on a volume difference.

markw
02-15-2008, 03:52 AM
Ok, the Jolida amp(202) is only a power amp, The Jolida 202 is not "only a power amp". The Jolida 202 is, in fact, a fully integrated amp with it's own built in preamp stage which includes source election and a volume control.

to wit: http://www.jolida.com/catalogue/models/jd202a.shtml

As for using the 9090 as a phono preamp only, which is exactly what you're doing, what other options do you have? I'm pretty sure it's quite workable but I'm fairly sure there are more modern standalone solutions that would better it, but what price range are you looking at? It's hard to compete with free.

SlumpBuster
02-15-2008, 07:54 AM
Jeez Louise... All that just to find out you needs one of theses:

http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-Tube-Box-II?sc=2&category=401

Using the Sansui in this manner is technically legitimate, but so is a banana and bacon sandwich. The actual physical appearance of the Tube Box next to the Jolida will make the listening experience that much more enjoyable. But, of course it is also $400 and the the Sansui is free.

E-Stat
02-15-2008, 12:35 PM
Shock and dismay, that nobody could remember this old tweak.
Guys, this is not a complex problem. Phono playback requires RIAA equalization and gain. The gain, however, is most often found in two separate stages: phone pre and line stage. "Hot rodding" simply sources the power amp at a fixed output directly from the phono gain stage through the tape out jacks. There is no free lunch and I've yet to meet a perfect line stage.

That approach is found with my vintage system in the garage. A Bellari phono pre with a MM Shure M97 drives a Threshold Stasis directly. No line stage at all. Fortunately, the Bellari was designed for this and has analog gain controls and low output impedance. It cannot fully drive the amp, but its gets plenty loud enough in the garage.

I can't do the same with the main system because I use a MC cartridge which needs a bunch of gain. On the other hand, I don't run the CDP in that system through the preamp at all - the CDP has more than enough gain to clip the amps and I use precision attenuators to adjust level. While running the CDP through the preamp is certainly more convenient, it compromises the signal integrity. Image shrinks and loses resolution.

rw

markw
02-15-2008, 12:58 PM
Guys, this is not a complex problem.Nobody said it was but OP tended to cloud the issue more than a little throughout the thread.


Phono playback requires RIAA equalization and gain. The gain, however, is most often found in two separate stages: phone pre and line stage. "Hot rodding" simply sources the power amp at a fixed output directly from the phono gain stage through the tape out jacks.So, that's "hot rodding"? I learned a new hi fi term! Great, as long as said power amp has gain controls on it. Many don't. Woe be to the newly deaf mo fo who doesn't have them.

E-Stat
02-15-2008, 01:50 PM
Great, as long as said power amp has gain controls on it. Many don't. Woe be to the newly deaf mo fo who doesn't have them.
If you have that much spare gain, that would be a good reason to not use an active line stage. I've never run into that situation. :)

rw

markw
02-15-2008, 02:07 PM
If you have that much spare gain, that would be a good reason to not use an active line stage. I've never run into that situation. :)

rwI used gain control in reference to it being on the power amp where perhaps you think attenuator before it in a passive line stage (preamp). In either case, active or passive, some sort of gain conrrol/attenuator somewhere in that signal path would be nice to keep from getting blasted out, no?

Come to think of it, isn't "passive preamp" an oxymoron? Why not just call it what it is, a switch and an attenuator?

SlumpBuster
02-15-2008, 02:09 PM
Now I'm confused even more! LPs in the garage?!? You must have a very clean garage. Either that or you're some kind of philistine. :D My garage is all oily and dusty. No place for vinyl playback :D

Bill K Davis
02-15-2008, 06:16 PM
Yeah the Jolida is integrated, but it has no phono preamp.So ,should I get a Music Hall Phono pack($69),Cambridge Audio 540p ($69 used), Nad pp2($85used) or what,in this price range? My Sansui preamp doesn't cut it I guess. I still say bypassing tone and volume controls is a tweak.

E-Stat
02-15-2008, 07:14 PM
Now I'm confused even more! LPs in the garage?!? ... No place for vinyl playback :D
Actually, I agree with you but lucked out with my current home. There are two closets at the back of the garage. One is the home of the system electronics and keeps relatively clean. The vinyl lives upstairs and only visits the garage as needed.

rw

E-Stat
02-15-2008, 07:17 PM
In either case, active or passive, some sort of gain conrrol/attenuator somewhere in that signal path would be nice to keep from getting blasted out, no?

Come to think of it, isn't "passive preamp" an oxymoron? Why not just call it what it is, a switch and an attenuator?

Agreed. Attenuators amplify nothing, pre or otherwise. That's exactly why I use the term attenuator. Dimmer if you will. Look at post #14 above.

rw

Mr Peabody
02-15-2008, 08:20 PM
If you can find one in your price range the Creek OBH-8 is an excellent phono stage with performance beyond it's price.

Out of the phono pre's you mentioned the only one I have experience with is the NAD and I found it laughable, it wasn't any better than most receiver preamps. It's been a number of years since I auditioned one, hopefully they've improved it some. The OBH-8 is in a much higher league.

KitR
03-06-2008, 04:33 PM
Either the tape input or an aux/line input will be fine but you'll need a pre-amp dedicated to processing vinyl signals(RIAA) to hear music! For $35-40, the ART deejay Pre II will stand comparison with a Stereophile Class B Bellari VP129(I own both) and is MUCH quieter but lacks tube warmth. It also has an output level control. Brings those not-so-good pressings back to life really well!