"Best" Processor 2.5-3.5k???

[bobsticks]

Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, children of all ages welcome to the show that never stops...upgradeitis!!!

In another thread, our own wise Mr. Peabody pointed out that I'm probably selling my system short by using any receiver and I'm willing to entertain this. Up to this point I've been seriously considering the Onkyo 875 or 905 ( http://www.productwiki.com/onkyo-tx-nr905/ ) but I am ever curious and would appreciate some discussion on this.

After some self-observation I have noted the following habits: 60% 2-channel listening, 30% multi-channel SACD, 10% movies...obviously these priorities will have an impact on the decision.

Clearly sound is the preeminent concern but I liked the possibility of video upconversion and integrating a computer into my main setup. The sell points on the Onkyo seem to be the Burr Brown DACs and Realta vid, and while the demos I've seen are impressive I'm also willing to admit that I would rather eschew some bells and whistles in order get the best possible sound quality for the buck.

I also don't have anything against buying used if the right deal came along. My question is, would an old Krell or McIntosh or MacCormack(or whatever) necessarily sound better than the newest and "bestest"? I could understand if this was just a two-channel system but multi-channel is a different beast.

Aesthetics and ease of navigation are also a consideration, as is price. I have other hobbies, a girlfriend, and a variety of money-consuming activities. Please don't suggest any 12k Lexicon behemoths. Ain't gonna happen.

Any comments,suggestions, or shared experiences would be welcome...and (gives evil glare toward Jayra and Bernd) better make sure the unit has a phono stage...

Gracias

[Mr Peabody]

As your main purpose is 60% music you owe it to yourself to pursue a good preamp and you will absolutely reap the benefits in both music and movies. Just think when you watch a movie how much of the soundtrack is music either to accentuate or background, and the additional impact and clarity of other sound effects and dialog. Also, if sound stage is better with better electronics, wouldn't that hold true with a movie? I've found the speaker to speaker travel of sound effects to be much more thrilling as I've gone up in quality of A/V processors. One of the main reasons I haven't upgraded to a more modern processor is I'm afraid I won't be able to afford something close to the performance of my Primare. I got a really good deal on it. I can understand some one using a receiver for budget or feature purposes but anyone who says their receiver preamp is as good as a higher end dedicated preamp is just wrong. That's like saying there is no difference between an Adcom and a Krell preamp, or difference between any entry level vs high end. Do you know anyone who would let you borrow even a stereo preamp so you can hear what your system is capable of? At least if you were convinced of the gain you could receive that would be additional information when analyzing your decision.

I can understand your reluctance to NAD's T175, I wish one of us could hear one. The Master Series I would be happy with the sound but it lacks in features It's in your price range, I heard it briefly and it was pretty good. I haven't done the feature research for you but also look at the Arcam at around $2.5k and next week is CES I'm waiting to see what new features will be on the Anthem AVM-30 or whatever their $3k processor will be. I've always heard Rotel's weakness was preamps but if the features are their, they should mate with your Mac pretty well.

I'm not sure how a brand like Krell and McCormack would mate with Mac as they have different sonic characteristics, sometimes opposites attract and sometimes, well they don't. As you are already aware the processors we know about in the high end will leave you wanting in features. Classe' had processors in your range. To be honest with you I have respect for Mac but I was disappointed in the sound of their processor I heard. I can't remember the model and it was a couple years ago. I heard it and the Anthem AVM-20 at the same time and based on that audition I would have taken the Anthem hands down and never thought twice. If you notice the Anthem has grown quite a bit in popularity.

This should be a good thread for us both, modernizing is in the back of my mind but it's not a must do for me. As I get more devices with HDMI it would be nice to have that switching. My TV only has one HDMI input. Of course, upgrading TV's could be about the same expense if not cheaper.

If I find something that I'm willing to switch to I'll probably post my 31.7 at $1.5k obo. It's an excellent preamp in sound but was built before HDMI was a thought. It's not far behind on decoding but probably not the piece for some one really wanting video switching. It does have the MC analog inputs. This is another thing I'm waiting to see where it goes, are we going to be forced to use MC analog to keep the best HD audio decoding or will the HDMI come into being what it's supposed to be. I was surprised to learn that a hand full of electronics manufacturers were behind the HDMI organization. I couldn't figure out if that was so how HDMI could be such a kaotic project. But that's another topic.

[gjpham]

2ch=60%, Movie, music video=40% for me. I couldn't get any happier with my Pre/Pro Anthem AVM-30. MSRP is $3k, new. But you can get it used "BuyItNow" on Ebay for around $1.7k. I matched mine with an Amp Anthem A5, same price when new and used. They are the most money I spent on my sound system and I love every momment of it. I just wish I have more time to spend alone in my well treated HT room. For me, it was the best bang for buck. I moved up from Harman Kardon receiver AVR435 and oh boy what diff it does made. It provides more depth, the vocal is more focus and more live. When the lights out, I thought Diana Krall was standing on the stage singing just for me. Music equipments are more real. Great sound stage. You will love the Anthem. They are class A. I audiction some of Rotels from HomeTheaterStore.com, but I went for Anthem.

[Mr Peabody]

gjpham, have you thought about upgrading your mains and center? I think you could improve your sound even more. The center and mains should really match for one thing and although JBL are decent enough speakers your electronics would shine even more with an upgrade to speakers. Maybe try some Paradigm.

[gjpham]

Yes, as matter of fact, I'm watching this Thiel CS7 at AudioGon right now. But if I go with this new route, I will go broke to match them with center and surrounds. My in-law has the same one laying around(laying around, can you believe that?) and he would let me take home to audition this afternoon. They are 165lbs each, so I'm looking for additional muscles. My concern is that I'm not sure my Anthem Amp A5 will be able to push this monster Thiel CS7.2. He always commented that my JBLs, were also handed down from him, are nice and clear for music but there is something wrong with the bass and the voice. We are cretical listeners so will see. What's your thoughts? It's my opolozi for stealing the thread.
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/auc.pl?spkrfull&1200104776

[bobsticks]

Thanks for the responses gentlemen.

Mr. P., did you hear the Mac with other Mac equipment or was it a mix-and-match?

When I think about it, the features are all convenience-based. Most of things I want to do I can accomplish using other means, albeit with less panache and more cabling and the rest...

[Mr Peabody]

Bobsticks, the Mac processor was with a Mac amp and I believe Paradigm speakers. The Anthem was with Anthem amp. I was more than a little surprised at the audition. But who knows what the settings were. If you had an opportunity you should definitely chekc it for yourself.

gjpham, Thiel are excellent speakers. The CS-7 may be a task for the Anthem but if you got a good enough deal, it could be worth upgrading amps. 5 channel amps are pretty reasonable used on Audiogon. Also, www.crutchfield.com is carrying Thiel now and may be able to get you into some financing for a center channel or if the Ebay don't work out, look for a more comparable Thiel package for your amp. It's a big plus to be able to audition a pair in your home, wish I was there to help you carry those babies. I'd suggest looking for a Krell, Bryston, Classe', something along those lines for an amp to drive the
7's if you got them.

[hermanv]

My good friend bought a used Sony 777ES SACD player and then had it upgraded by Vacuum State Electronics. This was not cheap, but the sonic improvement was undeniable. http://www.proaudioreview.com/august05/Vacuum.shtml

Since his system is different than mine it's hard to do apples to apples comparisons, but the upgraded unit easily matches and probably exceeds my Levinson 360S performance on Redbook CD, the 360S doesn't do SACD.

I don't think there are any outboard SACD decoders so if you want all in one solution a SACD player is the only answer. Many have said good things about the Phillips players, the only one I've heard (can't remember the model) wasn't that special.

[basite]

Thanks for the responses gentlemen.

Mr. P., did you hear the Mac with other Mac equipment or was it a mix-and-match?

When I think about it, the features are all convenience-based. Most of things I want to do I can accomplish using other means, albeit with less panache and more cabling and the rest...


I wouldn't bother about having HDMI or not, neither do I care about USB really...

For me, sound quality is more important then 'functions'...

I'd definately look at the Mc's (they would of course make a beautiful match with yer poweramp :)
if not Mcintosh, then I'd definately look at Krell, and Primare. I heard their processor once and was truly impressed.

Gjpham: Those Thiels are exellent speakers (ok, I'm a little biased, since I own a pair of CS2.3's myself, but anyways). I think you're going to LOVE them, and if you don't, feel free to send them over to me for proper 'disposal' :cornut:...
btw, if you're ever thinking of upgrading your electronics once you have the Thiels, definately look at Mcintosh, it's a match made in heaven with Thiel...


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[musicman1999]

Another vote for the Anthem, i have been using an AVM-30 and it does all that i ask it to.

bill

[bobsticks]

Hey bill, I was hoping you'd pop your head in here. Coupla questions for ya, does the AVM30, or for that matter the 20, have multi-channel analog inputs for an SACD player? I see units called the AVM2 on sale on ebay all the time, is that the same as the AVM20? Finally, it seems as if you have a few units with HDMI, can I assume you have a TV with multiple inputs?

Gracias

[bobsticks]

My good friend bought a used Sony 777ES SACD player and then had it upgraded by Vacuum State Electronics. This was not cheap, but the sonic improvement was undeniable. http://www.proaudioreview.com/august05/Vacuum.shtml

Since his system is different than mine it's hard to do apples to apples comparisons, but the upgraded unit easily matches and probably exceeds my Levinson 360S performance on Redbook CD, the 360S doesn't do SACD.

I don't think there are any outboard SACD decoders so if you want all in one solution a SACD player is the only answer. Many have said good things about the Phillips players, the only one I've heard (can't remember the model) wasn't that special.

Thanks for the response Herman. A new player isn't necessarily out of the question, although it would take the system in a whole new direction...and still leave the per/pro question unanswered.

It came down to the fact that I was unhappy with both the performance and the functionality of the Yammie, and also saw the opportunity to inflict this hobby on a friend :D At this point my main rig sits in silence, directionless, waiting for me to decide whether I want the ultimate computer/media center or to take a more traditional approach.

[gjpham]

Learn and compare them here. http://www.anthemav.com/
If you want some highlight and short cut, here's what I know. The AVM-50 has HDMI inputs but it cost more and hard to find them used on Ebay. You can compare the AVM-2 and AVM-20 here: http://www.anthemav.com/OldSitev1/frames/mixfr.html
If you decide to buy AVM-2, A friend of mine wants to sell his for $600 shipped. Yes the AVM20 has 5.1 analog and I'm sure my 30 has that too.

[basite]

btw, That Anthem Statement D1 looks very interesting :)

good luck with the search Mark!

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[musicman1999]

Hey bill, I was hoping you'd pop your head in here. Coupla questions for ya, does the AVM30, or for that matter the 20, have multi-channel analog inputs for an SACD player? I see units called the AVM2 on sale on ebay all the time, is that the same as the AVM20? Finally, it seems as if you have a few units with HDMI, can I assume you have a TV with multiple inputs?

Gracias

Hey man

Yes the avm-30 has one 5.1 analog input. I believe that the avm2 was just an older model that was replaced by the 20.Unfortunately my set only has one HDMI input so the wiring goes like this:Bluray-component video to tv, 5.1 analog to Anthem also coax digital
HD-DVD- HDMI to tv,Coax digital to Anthem

Calypso--Component to Anthem to tv, coax digital to Anthem,2 channel analog to Anthem.

bill

[N. Abstentia]

Have you looked into the Outlaw Audio 990? Sounds every bit as good as the Anthem, has more features, and costs less than $1000. Use that extra money on your speakers. The only knock on the Outlaw is the lack of HDMI inputs, but since you said that was not important you won't care about that. It does have DVI though, so if you DO have some HDMI sources you can get some $15 DVI-HDMI cables for them.

[gjpham]

Two of my older friends have that model, 990 is OutLaw's top model. They both have 7500 Amp and boy they can be pretty loud too. Great example if you are in budget. I once considered it myself. Outlaw is not class A. . http://outlawaudio.com/products/index.html

[Mr Peabody]

Have you heard both the Outlaw and Anthem? That's a pretty bold statement. If it's true the 990 would have to be the best value in a preamp going.

[musicman1999]

I agree with Mr P., i highly doubt the Outlaw would match the Anthem in sound quality, the Anthem is a very good component and i have not heard the Outlaw myself but i have read several reviews and i have seen nothing to indicate that it would be on the same level as the Anthem sound or feature wise.

bill

[gjpham]

- Alrighty, with additional help, the Theils are up next to my JBL L100t3. I'd like to write a short review but feel giulty stealing this thread.
- I heard both OutLaws with 2 diff setup. One with OutLaw Amp and Dynaudio speakers. One with 3 diff. powerful seperate Amps and JBL speakers. So how are they compare with my Anthem AVM-30? I didn't regret spending more money for the Anthem. Oh wait, the in-law that let me borrow the Theil has one too. He won a bid on Ebay and once brought it to my house, hooked it up to my system and compared with my AVM-30. We tested on 2-ch for music. How was it? It's not bad for $600 but I wouldn't save money and go back with it. I'm happy with my Anthem and ev1 else in here who has Anthem should have thought the same too, right?

[Mr Peabody]

Come on give us a bit of info on the Thiels. How did you like them, how did the Anthem amp do driving them?

One thing I can't figure out about the Outlaw, unless they have a warehouse full yet to sell, is why they still use DVI. They do have the 990 which is $899.00 and looks to be built pretty good but the proof is in the sound.

For what it's worth NAD's website shows several of their pieces getting awards from the Absolute Sound and different ones, including the older processor T163 and one of their stereo preamps, I think C272.

Anthem's D1 and D2 are big bucks, they are up with Krell's big cinema gear.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I only have very little to add to this post. I would not purchase anything that did not have a HDMI hookup. This hookup is the future of audio. There is no use in spending good money to support old audio formats. DVI cannot pass audio do IMO the Outlaw is out.

Two channel CD's sound better over HDMI, as a matter of fact so does SACD. The new audio platform for the future will be Bluray disc, as some high resolution PCM recordings should be out on the format around the middle of this year. HD DVD already has three high resolution PCM recordings released. The CD as a format is already heading towards the sunset with downloads taking over, so there is just no reason(unless you have a huge catalog of two channel CD and vinyl) to continue buying equipment optimized for this format.

This is just my opinion, but I am more of a foward thinker than most. A pre-pro with a HDMI input is a must. If you want to expand a single input into three, then Oppo has an excellent video/audio HDMI v1.3a switcher that cost just $99. I have purchased two of these so I can hookup as many as six HDMI sources to my hometheater.

[gjpham]

Come on give us a bit of info on the Thiels. How did you like them, how did the Anthem amp do driving them?....
I post it up here, didn't feel like stealing this thread.
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?p=220497#post220497

[musicman1999]

I only have very little to add to this post. I would not purchase anything that did not have a HDMI hookup. This hookup is the future of audio. There is no use in spending good money to support old audio formats. DVI cannot pass audio do IMO the Outlaw is out.

Two channel CD's sound better over HDMI, as a matter of fact so does SACD. The new audio platform for the future will be Bluray disc, as some high resolution PCM recordings should be out on the format around the middle of this year. HD DVD already has three high resolution PCM recordings released. The CD as a format is already heading towards the sunset with downloads taking over, so there is just no reason(unless you have a huge catalog of two channel CD and vinyl) to continue buying equipment optimized for this format.

This is just my opinion, but I am more of a foward thinker than most. A pre-pro with a HDMI input is a must. If you want to expand a single input into three, then Oppo has an excellent video/audio HDMI v1.3a switcher that cost just $99. I have purchased two of these so I can hookup as many as six HDMI sources to my hometheater.

Sir T

Can you elaborate on those high def audio releases, my impressions were that we were some time away from those.
When you say 2 channel cd sound better over HDMI what are you comparing it to, do you mean compared to analog or coax? I would think such a comparison would be hardware dependent.

bill

[bobsticks]

I spent the day listening to gear and come back with a few impressions, Theories, and questions.

First up was the Cary Cinema 6, a unit I desperately wanted to like and did, but not enough to pull the trigger right now. The Cary has some fantastic analog accoutrements and handles hi-rez 192k signals with aplomb. In two-channel, the thing is fantastic which made me consider it almost more of a traditionl affair that just had a few channels added.

There are a few quirks, some of which mattered to me and some did not. That the second zone response is limited to the analog section didn't bother me, since I probably wont use it. I was, however, disappointed by the lack of HDMI and moreso room correction.

I will say that at that price and with the level of two-channel analog output the old-school beast is not completely out of the running. It may be limited, but what it does right it does spectacularly so.

Next up was the McIntosh MX136. I don't have enough good words for this amazing piece of equipment, and at $9500 I shouldn't. Needless to say, I won't be buying this unit anytime soon unless Ivanka Trump has a daughter with really low standards but I wanted to get a feel for the Mac house sound on porcessors and possible quirks.

One thing I noticed ( though I was much less touchy-feely) with the Mac was that the crossovers come set at 80Hz was either the result of previous fiddling or a lack of said. Either way, a demo on fullrange speakers with these settings started of pretty shaky. I don't know if this factor was in play during Peabody's audition but I can see how it would color one's view. I would also admit that I was not enthralled with it's performance on Pro-Logic settings which sounded a bit lifeless to me.

It merits mentioning that this setup included a Classe DVD and CDP, the MC1201 Monos, aformentioned MX136 and a phalanx of Martin Logan Summits and subs. To find fault I had to be very picky. As far as modern ameneties it has 'em with every kind of connection imaginable. I would describe the video scaling as excellent though word is there is better available in the "Gennem (sp?)" chip. Whatever, I'm half blind.

This beast is a class act, though the general feeling around the store that this was one of the first outings that Mac had gotten more right than wrong in terms of total functionality and value. Clearly I'm gonna have issues unless I sell the lil miss into servitude or start a pitbull operation.

At this point I'm now heartily considering the option of "HT passthrough", finding out what it means and implementing it Bobstick's world. Does anyone know if any of the new mid-line receivers(Onkyo, Yammie, Denon) with full HDMI connectivity, USBs, etc. have this feature? Is this a Tape-Monitor type dealio? Whattup?

Thanks for indulging my bumblings about and general ramblings.

[Mr Peabody]

There are two places the term "pass through" or "bypass" is used. One is in receivers were the feature lets your analog signals "bypass" all the HT decoding and circuits. The next is found on stereo integrated and pre amps. This feature lets you run your front main preamp outs of a HT receiver or processor into them. So the stereo system runs the front mains and the receiver runs the center and surrounds. This is probably what you are wanting to do. You hook the stereo preamp to the 2 channels of your Mac running the main L/R and then the pre outs of the receiver into the "bypass" of the stereo preamp When watching movies the preamp would be on but not effectively active in the loop.

Like I was telling Blackraven the only 2 manufacturers I know off the top of my head that for sure have this feature is Conrad Johnson and Krell. The CJ would be a beautiful match with your system but I don't know how you'd feel about burning a tube while you watch a movie. I'd have some reservations as to the Mac/Krell synergy but you never know. There are others that offer the feature I just don't know who else at this point.

BTW, I enjoyed your post. Nothing like a good trip to the hi fi shop. Well, unless maybe we got to bring something home.

[musicman1999]

Bobsticks

Nice review, btw the Anthem Avm-50 and the Statement series also carry a Gennum video processor, which was described to me as "broadcast quality". Supposed to be very good.

bill

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T

Can you elaborate on those high def audio releases, my impressions were that we were some time away from those.
When you say 2 channel cd sound better over HDMI what are you comparing it to, do you mean compared to analog or coax? I would think such a comparison would be hardware dependent.

bill

Bill,
To answer your questions. These new High def music releases are designed specifically for multichannel application(no repurposing stereo content). The first three titles on HD DVD are experimental synth based mood music released in 24/96khz Dts HD MA in 7.1.

I know that there is music coming to bluray disc because a good friend who is a audio mixer told me that his studio has been commissioned to mix three audio blurays for release sometime this year. From what I understand, this will not be experimental music, but classical music already mixed for multichannel. The Sony insider at bluray.com also said that there is a possibility of some previously released SACD will also end up on bluray disc. The plan is to exploit Bluray disc fully and in a way that could never be accomplished with DVD-A ties with DVD-V

When I did my comparison, I level matched the optical, coaxial and HDMI inputs. I did not compare analog outputs. Consistantly the HDMI input offered a much smoother output, less harsh, and exibited a slightly better delineated soundfield with a little more air between instruments. I really didn't matter what recording I put on. I do not have a technical explaination, but the results were definately repeatable.

[Mr Peabody]

Sir T, wouldn't the improved sound via HDMI be explained by that signal being uncompressed PCM vs the other two being bitstream? There wouldn't be much advantage to BR if the HDMI was just a bitstream. And, to take advantage of the PCM your receiver/processor would have to be able to accept such a signal. There may be some difference between MC analog and HDMI due to variables in cables and such but both are converted by the BR player. NO receiver/processor is capable of decoding HD audio bitstream, and on the odd chance I was wrong, the decoding would be useless as no disc has yet been encoded to allow the bitstream to bypass the BR player's internal DAC's. I get the impression that the industry is trying to push back to decoding being done in the player rather than receivers.

[musicman1999]

Sir T

While i am not a big fan of synth music but i will look for those Blu discs when they come.

bill

[bobsticks]

Thanks for the specifics. It seems that I could potentially have the best of both worlds, being able to utilize HDMI for the modern, digital and hi-rez formats and still do a little old school utilizing the HT passthrough. Interesting.

I have a source for Krell gear too, so that could result in an interesting home demo...although it doesn't even sound good on paper. Either way there should be a few options and I'm excited about the idea of getting some strong sound in both 2-channel and MC.

Having done a fair amount of research on the net, it seems as if alot of folks other than serious gearheads aren't really opting for hi-end processors at the moment. General consensus is that there aren'tt a whole lot of units out there short of megabuck megaboxes that do the do. A point that I always remind myself is that I hardly live in an anechoic chamber. My room presents a myriad of challenges that have me convinced that, at least in this setting, one of the big boys would be wasted effort.

As an aside, does anyone know how HT bypass differs form a Tape Loop. I mean, is there any technical difference? There seems to be a lot of disagreement on this topic and I was wondering if anyone had tried a variety of untis or had spoken with an authority on the subject.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, wouldn't the improved sound via HDMI be explained by that signal being uncompressed PCM vs the other two being bitstream? There wouldn't be much advantage to BR if the HDMI was just a bitstream. And, to take advantage of the PCM your receiver/processor would have to be able to accept such a signal. There may be some difference between MC analog and HDMI due to variables in cables and such but both are converted by the BR player. NO receiver/processor is capable of decoding HD audio bitstream, and on the odd chance I was wrong, the decoding would be useless as no disc has yet been encoded to allow the bitstream to bypass the BR player's internal DAC's. I get the impression that the industry is trying to push back to decoding being done in the player rather than receivers.

Actually Mr P, there are several bluray players that pass bitstream from the player to the receiver for decoding. There are several recievers that can except that bitstream and decode it in house. Dolby TrueHD and Dts HD MA can be passed that way. I am going to purchase a Onkyo reciever to use as a pre-pro that can do just that. I have in my possession (as of today) a HD DVD player that can pass both high definition codecs bitstream to the receiver for decoding. Next on the upgrade list after the receiver is Panasonics new bluray player that will also be able to pass the bitstream directly to the reciever. The passing of the bitstream is not a disc issue, it is an authoring issue. You can pass the audio to the reciever for decoding, but you give up the interactive audio in the extras for the priviledge. That has always been the case.

The industry did want to move toward internal decoding within the player, but the public(meaning the enthusiast) wanted to hear the raw stream from DDTHD and DTS HD MA lossless.

[Mr Peabody]

Having done a fair amount of research on the net, it seems as if alot of folks other than serious gearheads aren't really opting for hi-end processors at the moment. General consensus is that there aren'tt a whole lot of units out there short of megabuck megaboxes that do the do. A point that I always remind myself is that I hardly live in an anechoic chamber. My room presents a myriad of challenges that have me convinced that, at least in this setting, one of the big boys would be wasted effort.

* I don't think it would be wasted effort. You have the room for ML's, you have ML's and a very nice amp. You have gotten your impression from forums but you have to consider the sources. There are many who get a receiver and maybe add a big amp and think, "it don't get any better than this", but they haven't tried it. I don't see the $5k and down processors drying up because no one will buy them. Just over the weekend I hooked up my CJ preamp in my second system to an Adcom 5400 driving some Dyn Audience 60's, I was impressed at what a good front end can do. I think you would benefit from a complete high quality processor but at least get a stereo one.

As an aside, does anyone know how HT bypass differs form a Tape Loop. I mean, is there any technical difference? There seems to be a lot of disagreement on this topic and I was wondering if anyone had tried a variety of untis or had spoken with an authority on the subject.

* I'm not sure. Wooch may know. I know they both basically work the same way except the "bypass" is straight through where the "tape monitor" can be accessed by most any input. Also, I wonder if a tape loop is limited to how much voltage can pass through it. A preamp variable output signal is going to be higher than a fixed input.

[Mr Peabody]

Actually Mr P, there are several bluray players that pass bitstream from the player to the receiver for decoding. There are several recievers that can except that bitstream and decode it in house. Dolby TrueHD and Dts HD MA can be passed that way. I am going to purchase a Onkyo reciever to use as a pre-pro that can do just that. I have in my possession (as of today) a HD DVD player that can pass both high definition codecs bitstream to the receiver for decoding. Next on the upgrade list after the receiver is Panasonics new bluray player that will also be able to pass the bitstream directly to the reciever. The passing of the bitstream is not a disc issue, it is an authoring issue. You can pass the audio to the reciever for decoding, but you give up the interactive audio in the extras for the priviledge. That has always been the case.

>> I'm not saying you are wrong but what you say is contrary to Dolby Labs and what they have on their website. As far as the authoring issue, that has to be encoded on the disc or the pass through won't happen. This is a confusing issue, the HDMI what it will and will not do, and there seems to be no consistency to information. It's like everyone is making their best guess. I'd say this would have to be a big draw back to sales. If you have any links to info I'd appreciate them. Because I'd consider Dolby a pretty good source. I don't really care if it's one way or the other or both, I just want to know what will do what.

The industry did want to move toward internal decoding within the player, but the public(meaning the enthusiast) wanted to hear the raw stream from DDTHD and DTS HD MA lossless.

>> I don't get it, can't they hear it just as well decoded in the player and sent via PCM?

Now I thought I had this all straight from reading Dolby's website and other HT sites and you have to mess things up again.

[Mr Peabody]

Check these Sir T;

http://www.dtsonline.com/dts-hd/dtshd-master-audio-with-existing-receiver.php

This article is excellent. It seems MA bitstream could be possible IF both the player and receiver had HDMI 1.3. No mention of the authoring catch.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ:_Blu-ray_and_HD_DVD_Audio_Explained/1064

Well now I know bitstream can be done if that's the way one wants to go. Now I have to get to the bottom of this encoding to bypass the internal DAC of the player. That will have to wait for another night because some antihystomines are kicking my butt.