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L.J.
01-03-2008, 11:32 AM
I finally got around to getting my BFD setup and doing some room measurements and a little bit of EQing. Not hard to work with but very time consuming. After reading the BFD guide at Hometheatershack (http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/bfdmeasure/) a few times, I was ready to go. Many thanks to those guys for putting that together :thumbsup: It is a MUST READ for anyone thinking of getting a BFD.

After doing my first measurement, I already knew what the results would be. Huge peaks! I did a pretty decent job using the 1 filter that's built into the sub but no way could it take care of everything or come close to the current results I have after using the BFD. Anyways, after disabling my sub's EQ and running my initial measurement, I started adding filter to drop down those peaks. I played around with the different settings to get a feel for what I was doing so I won't dare post my first results. The pic below shows my results from my 2nd attempt. The blue line is my before results and the pink is after.


http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8535/roomresponse2jk3.th.png (http://img88.imageshack.us/my.php?image=roomresponse2jk3.png)



I used 6 filters. I plan on giving it a few more tries until I'm completely satisfied with my results and I need to do some more reading on adding a "house curve". Bass is completely different. It actually took a day or 2 to get used to it. What's interesting is that my entire system has improved now. I can play it a lot louder and it sounds so clean. Bass is just invisible, very smooth and blends very well. I am very happy with my current results and can't wait until I'm completely done.

I'm open to any suggestions you guys may have.

I gotta thank Nod again for such an excellent deal. Kex has been putting up with a lot of my questions (as usual) so thanks to him as well.

GMichael
01-03-2008, 12:18 PM
Great job LJ. So you're liking it huh?
Thanks for the results.

E-Stat
01-03-2008, 01:31 PM
I finally got around to getting my BFD setup
Your big f... setup? Just kidding. :)

Yep, you have some serious modes as do I. It took -12 db cuts at 63 hz and 125 hz with 6 db boosts at 80 hz and 100 hz to the subs in my HT.


Bass is completely different. It actually took a day or 2 to get used to it. What's interesting is that my entire system has improved now. I can play it a lot louder and it sounds so clean. Bass is just invisible, very smooth and blends very well.

There is definitely a "rightness" to flat bass response. Enjoy.

rw

kexodusc
01-03-2008, 06:23 PM
Wow LJ, that before curve looks even messier than mine did. Maybe I missed it, but what were your room dimensions.

It's funny, but looking at that chart you must wonder how you could ever listen to you system before. Yikes.

I always say that most people wouldn't own a speaker that measured +/- 12 dB. Why do they settle for that in the first 2-3 octaves?

Glad to see it's working out for you. A definite improvement. Keep tinkering, over time you'll get better results still.

L.J.
01-03-2008, 09:20 PM
The room is 13.5 x 23. The ceiling starts at 8ft and slopes up across 3/4 of the room to 11ft. This room then goes into the kitchen. It's all open. My sub sits in a corner along the 8ft section of the ceiling.

Trust me, it sounded like crap. I couldn't set my levels because of the peaks so I had to run the sub at a lower volume to make up for that. I used the subs built in eq to set a filter at around 50hz and used a cut with a huge band to try to smooth it out. It sounded OK but not close to the results I have now.

I still gotta ways to go. This is probably my half way point.

Rich-n-Texas
01-04-2008, 05:55 AM
So this is what I have to look forward to after I finally get my room set up and have treatments in place? :cryin:

GMichael
01-04-2008, 06:00 AM
The room is 13.5 x 23. The ceiling starts at 8ft and slopes up across 3/4 of the room to 11ft. This room then goes into the kitchen. It's all open. My sub sits in a corner along the 8ft section of the ceiling.

Trust me, it sounded like crap. I couldn't set my levels because of the peaks so I had to run the sub at a lower volume to make up for that. I used the subs built in eq to set a filter at around 50hz and used a cut with a huge band to try to smooth it out. It sounded OK but not close to the results I have now.

I still gotta ways to go. This is probably my half way point.

Your sub is on your ceiling? :yikes:
I would have never have thought of doing that. You truly are a pioneer.

Rich-n-Texas
01-04-2008, 06:38 AM
Yeah that kinda stuck out for me too.

L.J.
01-04-2008, 07:18 AM
Pixie Snot fellas!! 1000 uses and still counting. The sub was a little heavy to lift, but it stuck right into place once I pressed the side coated with Pixie Snot up onto the wall. Now everyone can fit a 15" sub in their room!

GMichael
01-04-2008, 07:22 AM
Pixie Snot fellas!! 1000 uses and still counting. The sub was a little heavy to lift, but it stuck right into place once I pressed the side coated with Pixie Snot up onto the wall. Now everyone can fit a 15" sub in their room!

Who'd you get to help lift it? I know it's a beast! Been working out?

That pixie snot, it sure comes in handy. I may mix up a batch tonight. (Don't tell my cat)

Rich-n-Texas
01-04-2008, 08:32 AM
I don't think pixelthis would appreciate you refering to him as snot. He may shoot you with reddies. :rolleyes:

GMichael
01-04-2008, 08:57 AM
I don't think pixelthis would appreciate you refering to him as snot. He may shoot you with reddies. :rolleyes:

Read the second link in my sig.

Pixie wasn't around here yet.

L.J.
01-04-2008, 10:46 AM
So the question now is.........what's next?

After my sub is all done, what do I get into next :idea:

I'm running out of things to do here. Do I dare just sit back and enjoy myself? Listen to some tunes and get lost in HD movies?

GMichael
01-04-2008, 10:53 AM
So the question now is.........what's next?

After my sub is all done, what do I get into next :idea:

I'm running out of things to do here. Do I dare just sit back and enjoy myself? Listen to some tunes and get lost in HD movies?

Don't you have a system in your bedroom? The basement? Are you 1080p in each room?
Maybe a new game or two? Spend some time with the family?

Woochifer
01-04-2008, 11:28 AM
Awesome L.J.! :cornut:

I must say, you've done VERY well for yourself since joining this board with your initial batch of newbie questions! In a way, the BFD is a rite of passage for many of us on this board -- it's a final exam of sorts, one of the last major steps a lot of us did on our basic home theater setup. It's not expensive, but as I'm sure you've discovered, it requires that you draw from all of the knowledge you've accumulated so far and then some.

From here on out, most of your upgrades will either be incremental (upgrades to components you already have or learning how to better use your existing system settings) or very expensive (video signal processors, advanced audio DSPs, or more advanced ).

As far as the BFD goes, your observations are spot on with what I discovered when setting up my subwoofer. Without the BFD, the sound from my subwoofer was defined by the room induced peaks, some of which were well over +10 db. In order to avoid that ringing boominess, I had to dial down the levels, which left the overall bass sounding somewhat anemic. Those peaks also distorted the wideband level tests for the subwoofer, since the peaks at those specific frequencies were driving the overall SPL reading.

By leveling out the bass curve, the SPL reading is now much more accurate to what you actually hear from a wider range of sources, and you can now raise the subwoofer levels so that the bass sounds full yet free from the ringing and boominess that you might have experienced before.

While the BFD improved the bass for all of my sources, I found the greatest improvement with acoustic instruments. Acoustic instruments like string basses and large-scale symphonic pieces could now blend in much better with the main speakers. I could barely tell that the subwoofer was there, until I turned the unit off and the absence was very obvious.

Some quickie pointers on the BFD that might want to try for yourself:

- remeasure the overall subwoofer SPL and turn the level up to +4 db compared to the mains, reason being that our ears are less sensitive in the lower frequencies; now that you have a flat bass response curve, you can feel free to crank the bass higher without worrying about some ringing peak booming at your head.

- start developing your house curves for different sources; the BFD allows you to program multiple profiles using that toggle wheel, so you can try several different configurations without having to erase those bass profiles that you've already created.

- on your receiver's setup menu, increase the subwoofer's distance by 1-2 feet; this is because the BFD creates a 1-2 ms delay, so increasing the distance on your receiver will compensate for this. My receiver does not allow this adjustment, but my SACD player does, and the bass on the SACD sounds noticeably more coherent with the distance compensation for the subwoofer.

- play with the phase settings on your subwoofer. The BFD can also alter the signal in a way that necessitates adjusting the phase.

- try the BFD with the Room EQ Wizard (another learning curve, and you need a laptop computer with a mic and a sound card), which is also available on that BFD Guide website. I've been experimenting with it, and it produces some interesting results. I probably need a more accurate mic though to really make best use of it (currently, I use the Radio Shack SPL meter mic, and use the REW's calibration profile for the RS SPL meter).

- when all's quiet -- sit back and enjoy your movies and music! It's really okay to do that!

Rich-n-Texas
01-04-2008, 11:37 AM
Read the second link in my sig.

Pixie wasn't around here yet.
Only two conclusions I can draw from what I read in that thread:

You're not as funny as you used to be (maybe 'cause you weren't married yet), and
L.J. still doesn't know what LMAO meansBack on topic... I'm now going to read Wooch's loooooooong disertation.

GMichael
01-04-2008, 11:52 AM
Only two conclusions I can draw from what I read in that thread:

You're not as funny as you used to be (maybe 'cause you weren't married yet), and
L.J. still doesn't know what LMAO meansBack on topic... I'm now going to read Wooch's loooooooong disertation.

I'll have you know that I'm just as funny now as I've ever been. It's just that we don't have the same material here for me to work with. Go ahead, set me up like Soundideas did. Try to sell me a $500 wooden knob for my receiver. Go on. I dare ya.:incazzato:

Olivertmc
01-04-2008, 11:55 AM
I figure this as good a thread as any to ask this question:

I recently received the BFD for Christmas, and I'm kind of nervous as to what I'm getting into. I looked pretty carefully at the information posted at Hometheatershack, and the REQ software appears to be more complicated than just doing this manual. This may be a product of my ignorance as to some of the concepts involved. I know I need this thing, and I understand what it does (I think), but as a newbie, do you guys recommend doing this manually (I have the RS SPL) or starting with the software?

Thanks - I have a feeling I'll be posting a lot on this board in the days and weeks to come - I anticipate many questions.

- Olivertmc

kexodusc
01-04-2008, 12:07 PM
So the question now is.........what's next?

After my sub is all done, what do I get into next :idea:


I have an idea...but first...

(queue Meatloaf music)

Stop right there!
I gotta know right now!
Before we go any further --!

Will you listen?
Will you listen to Kex, hey?
Will you listen?
Will you listen LJ ?
Will you listen so closely to Kex's advice ?
Will you give Kex a word that rhymes with "advice"?
Will you listen?
Will you listen, Ehhhllll Jaaaayyyyy-ahhh?

L.J.
01-04-2008, 12:08 PM
Well well well, look what the rain washed in. One of the guys that started this whole mess. Thanks for the pointers Wooch. I'll take all I can get. I remember the first time I read the BFD guide :shocked: After reading it a few times and actual working with the BFD, it all starts to come together.

Interesting how it takes time to adjust to good sound. Once I reached my current settings, it took a day or so to get use to it. Just as you mentioned, it sounded like the bass wasn't there. So smooth and blends so well. Now I know what all the preaching was about.

I'm about half way there, but it's not like I'm in a race. Each step is giving me huge improvement and I'll just slowly keep working my way up. Not bad for $70.

I saw the recent pics of your little girl. Nice looking kid....she must get her looks from mom :)

noddin0ff
01-04-2008, 01:14 PM
Beautiful, L.J.! It's clear from the pre-BFD response that you needed it way way more than I did! I'm happy to see it found a good home. Nice work!

L.J.
01-04-2008, 01:51 PM
I figure this as good a thread as any to ask this question:

I recently received the BFD for Christmas, and I'm kind of nervous as to what I'm getting into. I looked pretty carefully at the information posted at Hometheatershack, and the REQ software appears to be more complicated than just doing this manual. This may be a product of my ignorance as to some of the concepts involved. I know I need this thing, and I understand what it does (I think), but as a newbie, do you guys recommend doing this manually (I have the RS SPL) or starting with the software?

Thanks - I have a feeling I'll be posting a lot on this board in the days and weeks to come - I anticipate many questions.

- Olivertmc

I haven't worked with both so Kex or Wooch may be able to provide a better answer. My understanding is that the REW route can get you better results and save you alot of time.

Going the manual route wasn't as hard as I thought. I read the REW & manual guide several times before starting and just took it one step at a time. Hooking it up and experimenting made things a little easier. It was time consuming, but once you get the hang of it, it becomes a little easier.

Woochifer
01-04-2008, 02:40 PM
I figure this as good a thread as any to ask this question:

I recently received the BFD for Christmas, and I'm kind of nervous as to what I'm getting into. I looked pretty carefully at the information posted at Hometheatershack, and the REQ software appears to be more complicated than just doing this manual. This may be a product of my ignorance as to some of the concepts involved. I know I need this thing, and I understand what it does (I think), but as a newbie, do you guys recommend doing this manually (I have the RS SPL) or starting with the software?

Thanks - I have a feeling I'll be posting a lot on this board in the days and weeks to come - I anticipate many questions.

- Olivertmc

I've gotten mixed results using the REW software. Once you learn how to use the REW, it's actually simpler to program the BFD because it automatically tells you what settings you should use and how many EQ filters to setup. The REW simplifies things even further if you use a MIDI connection between the computer and the BFD. With a MIDI connection, you can actually use the computer to control the BFD. But, that's a bridge that I haven't crossed yet.

With the manual plotting, you have to estimate the bandwidth and the center point on each EQ filter that you use. On my "flat" curve, I actually use 10 EQ filters, which is overkill but it also gives me the bass that I like.

I originally used a manual plot with a RS SPL meter, along with the Excel spreadsheet that's posted on the BFD Guide website. I also experimented with house curves and alternate configurations. But, generally I use my "flat" curve and boost the subwoofer levels by +4 to +8 db.

When I used the REW software, the program identified three EQ filters, one of which used a very wide bandwidth. I thought that the bass with the new settings sounded more bloated, but still a huge improvement over the unequalized subwoofer.

For an absolute beginner, I would stick with the BFD Guide's manual measurement method, and try the REW method if some of the adjustments seem overly confusing. (The REW software requires a computer with a sound card, and a microphone) Either way, you need to learn how to use the BFD in the first place, and that's a bit of a learning curve in itself. But, believe me the improvements to your bass afterwards make it all worthwhile.

Woochifer
01-04-2008, 03:01 PM
Well well well, look what the rain washed in. One of the guys that started this whole mess. Thanks for the pointers Wooch. I'll take all I can get. I remember the first time I read the BFD guide :shocked: After reading it a few times and actual working with the BFD, it all starts to come together.

Believe me, there's plenty of blame to go around! Once I bravely announced to this board that I would finally give in and purchase a subwoofer, guys like Doc Greene, Terrence, and many others who've left this neighborhood began pounding me over the head about the need to EQ the subwoofer. After my BFD arrived, I joined the chorus and you just happened to be the latest one to succumb!

I'm not the first one on this board to mess around with the wonders of the BFD, and you won't be the last! But, you certainly will be the next one to begin preaching its virtues. :6:


I saw the recent pics of your little girl. Nice looking kid....she must get her looks from mom :)

Believe me, I'm quite thankful for that! Although by her teenage years, when I'm trying to beat back all her wannabe suitors at the door, I'll probably wish that she looked more like her old man!

kexodusc
01-04-2008, 03:29 PM
I was not impressed with the REW compared to the settings I was using, but I have to say to a raw noob, it probably would point them in the right direction a lot quicker than trial and error.
For the effort involved in setting up REW, I'm not sure it's a better solution though? Guess it doesn't hurt to have more options. My room is a bit odd shaped too, in pure rectangular rooms perhaps the software is more reliable?

L.J.
01-05-2008, 08:32 AM
I'm not the first one on this board to mess around with the wonders of the BFD, and you won't be the last! But, you certainly will be the next one to begin preaching its virtues.

Your right!

GM, looks like your next in line :cornut: