Need help with upgrade ideas

[Bigmoney]

As many of you once were, I am an entering the realm of high quality audio reproduction. I am begginging to piece together a system and based on my equipment what would be my most cost-effective upgrade, I have adequate knowledge of audio/acoustics/ placement etc. but when it comes to tweaks/ powere conditioning/ amplification I am a novice. Please help me.

[Bigmoney]

I am using b and w 602 s3 as my mains, dm 303 as my rear, denon 2801 as my receiver, marantz 4001 dcd/cd player, monster reference z2 speaker cables, crystal acoustics 12 inch sub, and a 11.75, 14.75, 8 foot room.

[basite]

you might wanna post this (or move this) thread in the 'General Audio' board. there will be more replies there I think...

any things you don't like about your system? or you think that definately have to be improved?

I wouldn't worry too much about power conditioning unless you live in a big flat, with cellphone poles around the place and such...
not that it doesn't make an improvement, but there are upgrades that give more...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[bobsticks]

Hey Bigmoney,

First and foremost, welcome to the forums. When looking at improvements, and all of us could find some, it's first helpful to ask a few questions to diagnos what it is that you feel needs improvement? How far apart from each other and how far apart from the walls are your speakers? Have you employed any treatments on the walls or in the room?
There may be some things you can do to optimize your setup that won't cost anything at all.


Now, if you're just looking for a reason to spend some money you'll hear the most difference by moving up the line in speakers or amps. Remember, however, that if you upgrade your mains you'll also want to upgrade your center to maintain a consistency in the front soundstage.

If you're happy with your speakers you may want to look into adding some external amplification. I was surprised at what a difference switching amps made in my own system. I was already using an external source with my receiver because of the low sensitivity of my speakers but moving up the line from Rotel to McIntosh made an incredible difference to these ears. B&Ws love hi-current, you may find that adding some juice to those babies will give you some extra headroom.

Good luck, have fun, but make sure to spend some time analyzing your goals before you hop on the upgrade train to nowhere.

Peace

[Bigmoney]

Thanks a ton......I am responding to your posts duringschool. I hope it conveys my passion.....will post more feedback later

[basite]

what center speaker do you have?

if you don't have one, that would be a major upgrade.

also a better dvd player (nothing against the marantz, but a better one is always welcome), or a HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player...

or, getting a new receiver would make some big changes too...
it will give you all the newest functions so upgrading the source will be easier, and better sound quality will follow :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Bigmoney]

Let me clarify, I am currently using the dm 303s as my mains but will purchase a demo pair of the dm602 s3 b and w loud speakers to use a s my mains and bump the dm303s to surround. I will use my 300 series b and w center channel. Any opinions on b and w speakers and what can be done to evoke the best performance from them? An amplifier was mentioned, should I use my denon 2801 as a pre amp and what does bi amping entail. Sorry for the boatload of questions, but I am turning to you to educate me as I know your knowledge is huge. I am purchasing the 602s for 450 dollars as a demo, is that a good price, my dealer says they were 650 reatil and took 200 off for the demo. I am using a roughly 1500 cubic feet room (rectangle) will the DM 602s adequately reproduce bass enough that a can sell my crystal acoustics subwoofer? Thanks to all : )

[Bigmoney]

I am trying to improve sounstage depth and image. As all audio purists hope, I want to eliminate the feeling of my speakers sounding like they are " coming from speakers" I want them to disapear and be immearsed in the soundstage. Currently They are somewhat non involving. Would an amp fix this, what would you reccomend as a budget amp and are used amps good? Using Acoustic research pro IC cables and have speakers 29 inches from the back wall and 25 in from the sides and roughly 7 and a half feet apart with little toe in.

[blackraven]

Buy a higher end CDP like a Rega Apollo, Cambridge audio 740c, Marantz SA8001 SACDP. If these are too expensive then look at the Cambridge AZure 640c, Music Hall CD25.2 and eventhe Marantz 5001. These will give you more of what your looking for. A higher end amp will help as well. Are you looking for 2ch or multichannel HT. If 2ch, then you could look into the outlaw audio RR 2150 receiver for $650 or an integrated amp like Onkyo or Cambridge audio. If your receiver has a preamp out you could look into a pair of the outlaw monoblocks for $650 a pair or a B&K reference sereis 125.2 amp for abour $699. There are many options available depending upon how much you want to spend. The B&K amp can be found at www.audiophileliquidators.com and www.depedableaudiovideo.com The cambridge CDP's can be found at the last address at excellent prices. www.hcmaudio.com carries the music hall.

By the way, don't waste your money on fancy power cords and conditioners. IMO and professional reviews they dont make a rats ass of a difference and they won't give you what your looking for.

Hope this helps some. I'm sure others will give some feed back as well.

[Bigmoney]

Is my marantz 4001 really inadequate..........I have heard of huge differences that amps make compared to the player. How are monoblock amps better?

[Feanor]

Is my marantz 4001 really inadequate..........I have heard of huge differences that amps make compared to the player. How are monoblock amps better?

There isn't universal agreement on the typical contribution of various component types to the overall sound quality. My list is as follows:

Speakers
Room treatments if & where necessary
Vinyl playback, viz. cartridge & turntable if used
Radio tuner if used
Amplifier
Preamplifier or DSP processor (if not a receiver system), including phono preamp if used
Digital sources, CDP and/or DAC
Power supply filters if & where necessary
Vibration control devices if & where necesary
Speaker cables
Component interconnectsHowever it is the "weakest link in the chain" that needs to be address first.

On the other hand you will note that some people insist that upstream components, e.g. CD player, generally take priority over downstream components

[Bigmoney]

Thank You. Do you believe my b and 2 602 s3s will reproduce enough bass in my room ( 1500 cubic feet) to sell my subwoofer. Or do you believe my sub is valuable with these speakers ( I am using this sub http://www.crystalaudiovideo.com/product.aspx)

[blackraven]

Only you can determine if you need your sub. How do you think your sub sounds?
And yes, a CDP makes a world of difference in the sound stage, imaging detail and transparency of music, but an amplifier does as well. They go hand in hand. If I were you, I would consider upgrading the CDP first and see what your system sounds like. Just look at the reviews of CDP's and see how the reviewer describes the sound and how each one affects the music differently. Check out www.stereophile.com for reviews. Then upgrade your amp if you do not get the sound you are looking for. It looks like your interested in 2ch music if your thinking about selling your sub. If thats so, there are some inexpensive 2ch receivers like the Harmon Kardon 3485 which is high current, 120wpc and a good buy. It can be found for under $300. Its a good receiver if your on a budget. Go one step at a time as you make changes in your system and see how it sounds.

[Bigmoney]

My sub neither inexpensive or expensive has a price tag of 600 dollars and is thx certified. However it seems bloated. I would like a sub with more precision and punch than a boom/ rumble that seems to just produce a headache and distort my mains. It is 4 ohms and active do the ohms matter? and it has a sensitivity of 93 where as my mains are 88. Thinking an spl meter might be what I need.

[blackraven]

Here a few choices to for what you want. REL makes high end subs, some of the best in the world but they also make a few models for under $1000 that are excellent. Very tight precise bass without any boom or muddy sound. Martin Logan also makes the Dynamo for $600. Its non ported like the REL's and is comparable to the REL's. Its more suited towards music like the REL's as opposed to HT use. These are very "fast" subs and match well with speakers like Magnepans and ML because of this. You can hear the Dynamo at any best buy magnolia store. By the way, BB Magnolia can order REL subs. Check out the T-series and Q-series REL subs. Stick with 8-10" subs for tighter bass in the lower prices subs.
www.sumikoaudio.net

www.rel.net/index2.htm

[basite]

My sub neither inexpensive or expensive has a price tag of 600 dollars and is thx certified. However it seems bloated. I would like a sub with more precision and punch than a boom/ rumble that seems to just produce a headache and distort my mains. It is 4 ohms and active do the ohms matter? and it has a sensitivity of 93 where as my mains are 88. Thinking an spl meter might be what I need.


as mentioned before me (by Blackraven), I'd get a REL sub then...

exellent subs, and both good for music and for movies...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[blackraven]

Bigmoney, How much are you looking to spend to upgrade your system? Are you wanting to upgrade your amp, CDP, or sub? If you have limited budget, go for the CDP and them Amp IMO. To answer a previous question of yours, yes upgrading from the marantz 4001 cdp will make a big difference if your willing to spend $600 and up! All I can say is audition them with some high quality recorded CD's and read lots of reviews.

[Bigmoney]

Thank you to all, I am an on a budget however and would spend around 500. Maybe go used? I am tight on money as I am a student and just bought brand news mains ( b and w 602 s3s). I love them but am looking for so more power to drive them. I am tired of my 4 year old denon 2801 receiver and want to send them some real current not just 90 watts. Can I get a good amp for around 500 used/ new....

[basite]

Thank you to all, I am an on a budget however and would spend around 500. Maybe go used? I am tight on money as I am a student and just bought brand news mains ( b and w 602 s3s). I love them but am looking for so more power to drive them. I am tired of my 4 year old denon 2801 receiver and want to send them some real current not just 90 watts. Can I get a good amp for around 500 used/ new....


I'd settle with the denon for a while, and save some more money first. I don't think it's really wise to look for a $500 amp (you might find something, but most likely stereo, and only a poweramp...), so I think it's better to save on for a better receiver, you'll get more of an upgrade out of that :)

I know that it's hard being a student (given that I'm only 17 myself...), but even though upgrading might go a little slower, it's definatly worth it to save on...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[blackraven]

Words of wisdom Basite, your a smart 17yo!

[jrhymeammo]

and we all should be taking notes of that.


My list is as follows:
Speakers
Room treatments if & where necessary
Vinyl playback, viz. cartridge & turntable if used
Radio tuner if used
Amplifier
Preamplifier or DSP processor (if not a receiver system), including phono preamp if used
Digital sources, CDP and/or DAC
Power supply filters if & where necessary
Vibration control devices if & where necesary
Speaker cables
Component interconnects

I have NO experience with a dedicated radio tuner, but I must say phono pre amp should move up a couple of notches. A device that gains 30~80+ dB should be somewhat decent.

Of course, a source player should be on the very top if someone is determined to reach the highest audio nirvana.....:idea:

[Bigmoney]

I agree with black raven. I guess I will save little by little for some thing of true quality. That wathe best py I don't start the cycle of replacing equipment everyweek because it's not what I want. Patience will ultimately get me the best product. What are some good amps and do you reccomend buying used. Also regarding the the cd players, not that I doubt any of you, but can someone help me understand how a a cd player can make a substantial difference. I know, a CDP from walmart won't do the job but my dealer told me the marantz 4001 I bought would be very good. Im eager to hear what you have to say because CDP's are out of my expertise.

[jrhymeammo]

You can always looks for deals on amps such as Rotel RMB-1075. If you are patient enough $600 should be enough.
Rotel is stable enough to drive a load below 4 Ohm when asked.
2801 is a good HT receiver but really lacks in juice when paired with speakers such as B&W. 602s arent the hardest speakers to drive by any means, but receivers and amps dont like speakers with huge impedence swings.


Or you can always choose to become a real man, and take out a loan.

[Bigmoney]

what is an impedance swing? Do my speakers have an issue with that?

[blackraven]

CDP's all have their unique sound. It all boils down to the quality of the DAC's and all the electronics from the quality of the clock, type of power supply like torroidal PS's, capacitors and type of filters and processing of the signal among other things..Some have a warm sound, others have a neutral or more of a cool sound. Some give a more transparent sound with better detail and separation of instruments along with a larger sound stage and better imaging. Some have a pushed back sound which I prefer vs a more foward presentation. If there was no difference in sound then why are there CDP's from $100 to $20,000. You need to find a high end audio store and listen to various CDP's. You might even want to bring yours along to compare and see the difference, or bring one home on a trial basis. My store here will let you take home a $10K CDP on a trial basis. READ THE REVIEWS OF CDP'S!
For example:
www.avreview.co.uk/news/article/mps/UAN/1432/v/3/sp/332842698884330561360

[musicman1999]

My sub neither inexpensive or expensive has a price tag of 600 dollars and is thx certified. However it seems bloated. I would like a sub with more precision and punch than a boom/ rumble that seems to just produce a headache and distort my mains. It is 4 ohms and active do the ohms matter? and it has a sensitivity of 93 where as my mains are 88. Thinking an spl meter might be what I need.

You could experiment with placement for your sub, put the sub where you sit and walk around the room to see how the sound from the sub changes, if you find a spot where the sub sounds clean and strong, then put your sub there.

bill

[Bigmoney]

Okay I think my sub is sounding better. Anyone know about bass traps or and any DIY projects to build them.

[zepman1]

Bass Traps:

http://www.geocities.com/jonrisch/a.htm

[Rich-n-Texas]

DIY acoustic panels:
http://www.atsacoustics.com/

After recommendations here, I purchased a box of 6 ea. 24" x 48" panels and will finish them with burlap coverings.

[O'Shag]

Hi Bigmoney,

You should start with the preamp. It is the bottleneck, because it takes the delicate low-level signal, amplifies and feeds it to the amplifier. Different high-quality preamps (and amps) have their own sound usually reflecting the designer's philosophy. Any good preamp (or amp) will sound essentially neutral, but each will have its own subtle signature or character, and here you will find divergent opinions on what sounds best.

I've heard mediocre sources sound way better than expected with a good preamp/amp and decent speakers, such as you have. I feel its not best to focus on the source as a starting point if your on a tight budget.

In my experience most mass market processors will have a somewhat flat lifeless sound. They sound great in multi-channel, but essentially they will not light you fire in the same way for two-channel music. I have heard all the main mass market contenders pretty much. I chose Yamaha's flagship Z9 after several weeks of auditioning, and for two-channel music it doesn't really compete overall next to my dedicated audio components, this considering the Z9 was better than all the other contenders i.e. Denon, and Pioneer flagships (Not including high-end processors such as the Sonic Frontiers D2, Parasound Halo C1 etc). I use the Z9 for multi-channel and movies and it does serve that purpose very well.

Some affordable (on the used market) preamps in no particular order of preference:
1. Audible Illusions Modulus 3
2. MFA Magus (a killer for the money)
3. Audio Research SP6 (if your lucky), or SP9
4. Marsh Sound Design 2000t

But there is another alternative, one that, for the same type of money, buys you an integrated, which is a tremendous bargain and an over-performer in the best sense of the word. The Naim Nait 5i integrated will make your B&Ws sing. Its not the most powerful (only 50w per channel but those are great watts), but within its range it will give you a true taste of the possiblilities. I think it can be had on the used market for about $800 - $1,000.

If you want an integrated phono stage, you could also look at Outlaw Audio. For about $600 or so, you get decent sound and a MM phono stage. It will not sound as good as the Naim Nait 5i, but it does have more power (100w as opposed to 50w for the Naim).