Please help!!!

[tony340]

Guys i fixed my new rig today, AND I'M VIRTUALLY SPEECHLESS!!!!!!! The system is breathtaking!! Its simply mind blowing stuff... The Paradigm Reference Studio 20, Rotel RA-1062, and Marantz CD 5001, together with Van Den Hul Speaker cables, and QED Interconnects, sound brilliant for the money...

But i have some questions: What exactly is the minimum distance between speakers tweeter to tweeter??? And also whats the minimum distance between the speaker and the wall??? Plus i'm not entirely sure about this breaking in period, the dealer for the paradigm and rotel said that the speakers would need around 120 hours and the rotel around 72 hours... Now does this time frame mean that i keep playing the system continuously for this period of time, or does it mean that i play it randomly for say 6 hours at a time to accumulate it to the required time break in??? Please i'm kind of confused, and would really appreciate the answers to these questions if possible... Thank you and Happy New Year!

[audio amateur]

As far as placement goes, ideally you want to have an equilateral triangle formed with your listening position, and the two speakers. By reducing the distance between the speakers, you are going to narrow the 'soundstage'. Position recommendations should be mentioned in the studio's manual. You may want to have your speakers a couple of feet way from the walls, but again, check your manual and do what you think sounds best. For break in, simply put some music on, and avoid playing bass heavy stuff loudly at first.
Glad you're happy with the setup

[tony340]

thanks! the thing is that my room is a very small apartment, and i'm just managing to place the speakers about 6-8 ft apart, but the distance between the wall and speaker is around 8 in, is this ok?? also when talking about the break in time, does it mean that i play the system non stop at a stretch? or do i just play it randomly, say for 6 hours at a stretch?

[basite]

thanks! the thing is that my room is a very small apartment, and i'm just managing to place the speakers about 6-8 ft apart, but the distance between the wall and speaker is around 8 in, is this ok?? also when talking about the break in time, does it mean that i play the system non stop at a stretch? or do i just play it randomly, say for 6 hours at a stretch?


My speakers are about the same distance apart from each other...

works well here, but I do have them placed 1.5 ft from the back wall and the same from the side wall, the right side wall is further away...

I sit about 2 meters away from my speakers, maybe slightly more, and have them toed in a little, so the sound comes at me more direct.

if you've got a little time, you can read these:
http://www.rivesaudio.com/resources/listening_room/frame.html
and this one is about speaker placement in general, only read appendix 'A':

http://www.rivesaudio.com/files/spkr_plcmt.pdf

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[audio amateur]

for break-in just play your music as you normally would. No worries;)

[Bernd]

All good advice. And if you want to speed up the breaking in period for your speakers just wire one speaker out of phase (swap plus and minus at the speaker end) and have them facing each other only a hand width apart and put the CD on repeat and leave them like that for a day or so.

Glad you enjoy your system.

Peace

:16:

[melvin walker]

The speaker cabinets should be 12 feet apart. How far from the wall depends on what type of speaker enclosures you are using. Very few bass enclosures work very well in corners , only horns. Depending on the enclosure type some speakers should be mounted on stands. Placing a speaker close to the wall increases base response. But again it depends on the type of bass enclosure.

There is no breaking in period for good speakers ! As for as tweeters , what kind of tweeters does your speaker system use ? horn or cone ? where are they placed in the enclosure ?
How much real knowledge does your audio sales person have concerning audio ? does he also sell video ?

Cables and interconnects plays such a small part in music reproduction. The most important parts of an audio system is speakers and amps.
The better the amps the cleaner the sound. The better the speakers the better it sounds.
Try reading some audio magazines , there are several that will assist you in learning more about audio.

I will add most audio salesmen have limited knowledge about audio. Unless you buy from a audio shop only , where there may be a salesman that is an audiophile. That may not be possible today because of home theatre systems, but you can try.

[JohnMichael]

The Studio 20 v3 and v4's are front ported so you can have them closer to the rear wall then if they were rear ported. I try to listen to the midbass and if it seems muddy or ill defined I would move the speakers out from the wall a little more.

Audio Amateur has a good point about placing the speakers in an equilateral triangle. I to live in a small apartment and my speakers are 7ft apart and I am 6 ft from them. In this case I use a little more toe in. There is no set distance speakers have to be apart from each other it is guided by the size of your room and the distance you can be from them. One of the nice things about two way speakers is their sound from the two drivers integrates quicker then a three or more way speaker. This enables you to listen closer than multiways.

I am glad you are enjoying your system. I also use the Marantz CD5001 and have been very pleased with the quality for the money. A good integrated amp, cd player and pair of two way speakers can give a lot of musical enjoyment.

[Bernd]

There is no breaking in period for good speakers !
.

I can't believe that I am reading such misinformation on here!:nonod:
Surely anyone knows that the mechanical part (ie the cone) in a speaker needs time to bed in and loosen up.

Peace

:16:

[blackraven]

To break in my CDP's, I run them 12-24hrs at a time. You do not need to have the amp turned on. As far as other equipment, I just leave the music playing contiuously while I'm away at work.

Just play around with the position of your speakers to find the best sound. Every room's acoustics and every speaker is different.

[audio amateur]

Melvin you should really tell us where you get your sources from:shocked:

[Slippers On]

First of all Tony, I'm glad you are pleased with you new set-up and your excitement transmits to all of us who have had similiar experiences in our venture of all things Hi-Fi.

I don't profess to know all the answers to all your questions but I will give my opinion based on my own experience of some of your issues. I know you are excited and want to get the "run in period" over and done with first.

As Bernd pointed out, face your speakers within a hand's breadth of each other, put ONE of the speakers 'out of phase' by "switching black and red on one speaker only". This will not cause any damage whatsoever. What this does is to rid the room of BASS so that it will not annoy the neighbours, or you, when you go to bed. The bass notes will not combine to boom the room. The two speakers, instead of working in tandem to promote bass, will work against each other, (in effect cancelling out each other). Your drivers (cones) will continue to get "worked in". I recommend you place your speakers on a sofa or cusions during this exercise. You definately won't annoy anyone.

Next:- You ask the question about minimum distance from wall/corners, well I've taken the trouble to look up the specifications of your speakers and I have identified that they are "rear ported" studio speakers. This means good and bad.

Good:- They are "studio" speakers and so they are designed for small enclosures.
Bad:- They are rear ported so you will need to be a little careful about positioning.

There is no such thing as "minimum distance" between tweeters or from rear wall. You will have to experiment with the distance from your speakers to the rear wall, but I think you might be pleasantly surprised that they have been designed - not to sit in the middle of the room - but to be placed relatively close to a rear wall. You will have to judge when bass becomes too 'boomy'.

As to the distance between speakers - these are 'near-field' speakers; 'studio' speakers. They are designed for small rooms. (Your sales assistant got that right). If you are concerned about how close you can place them together then I would tell you 2ft. (yes two feet). But then you would need to sit 2ft from them to listen properly:(

Your speakers have a range of 54Hz - 22kHz. If your amp can drive them appropriatly, which I've no doubt, then you will hear some lovely music many feet and yards back, providing you try and keep within that "triangle" suggested by Audio Amateur.

Another worthy point Tony...did your dealer mention that the tweeters should be in line with your ears? This is a crucial point missed by many. When listening to stereo music, (not necessarily home theatre), the tweeters should be on the same horizontal as your ears when you are seated. Whatever speaker stands you use for your Paradigms make sure they accommodate your lugs.

Finally, you mentioned QED interconnects. Which ones are you using? Most of my gear uses QED.

Tony, you seem excited about your new gear. I wish you all the best. You certainly seem on your way to experiencing better and better. Congratulations.

If anything I've said seems condescending then I apologise, I don't know you from a crow and so I am taking it that you have invested in some new equipment of which you are not familiar.

Best Regards

Now I'm putting on my slippers to listen to some FM radio:6:

[basite]

Slippers,
I think his speakers are front ported, I remember the V2 version to be rear ported, but the V3 is front ported...

anyways, I find it nicer to listen to music when the speakers are not to close to eachother, while the soundstage is really coherent this way (and it will stay coherent until you place the speaker to far away from eachother and sit to close), the imaging is pretty small, imagine it getting a little cramped...

On the other hand, placing a speaker in a corner may cause first order reflections, which will cause a corrupt soundstage, and may brighten the sound a little (there is alot of info on this in the links I posted before...). The ideal speaker placement is pretty much impossible for us to tell...
It differs for every room, but the basic guidelines have all been mentioned in this post already, so I will not repeat too much...

just play around a little when you have them set up first, use the guidelines here to do that, then you can decide wether this is good enough or not. But never forget to play around, just not too much, it gets a little obsessive then :p

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Feanor]

As far as placement goes, ideally you want to have an equilateral triangle formed with your listening position, and the two speakers. By reducing the distance between the speakers, you are going to narrow the 'soundstage'. ..

An equilateral triangle, or 60 degress between the speakers is ideal, but a bit less is tolerable if necessary: don't obsess about. IMO, 45-50 degrees is better than >90 in which your imaging will become vague and too much will seem to come either from the left or right and too little the center.

[Slippers On]

Basite, don't take all you read as Gospel. Tell me about you own speakers. If your speakers take up more room than your manoevability then they're too big. How much do your speakers dominate?

Once you're satisfied with your placement tell me the power output of you amp/s.

Of course it makes sense not to huddle the speakers, make the most of them, sit back if you can.

Slippers On

[basite]

Basite, don't take all you read as Gospel. Tell me about you own speakers. If your speakers take up more room than your manoevability then they're too big. How much do your speakers dominate?

Once you're satisfied with your placement tell me the power output of you amp/s.

Of course it makes sense not to huddle the speakers, make the most of them, sit back if you can.

Slippers On


My speakers work pretty good in my room, they are not small, but their design kinda allows me to use them in smaller rooms too without problems...

I don't have the Thiels that long yet, so I'm still playing around with placement too from time to time (especially now, since I'm trying out new interconnects...), but at the moment, the meters on my Mcintosh indicate 0.01 watt power output, but it's night now, so it's slightly quieter as during the day, then the meters indicate an average of 1 watt, sometimes 2 watts constant output power, although peaks reach much much higher.
When I play loud, the meters hit 10 watts average output...

sometimes at night I can have music playing without even seeing the meters move, exept on absolute peaks, and it still sounds good and coherent...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Jimmy C]

Guys i fixed my new rig today, AND I'M VIRTUALLY SPEECHLESS!!!!!!! The system is breathtaking!! Its simply mind blowing stuff... The Paradigm Reference Studio 20, Rotel RA-1062, and Marantz CD 5001, together with Van Den Hul Speaker cables, and QED Interconnects, sound brilliant for the money...

But i have some questions: What exactly is the minimum distance between speakers tweeter to tweeter??? And also whats the minimum distance between the speaker and the wall??? Plus i'm not entirely sure about this breaking in period, the dealer for the paradigm and rotel said that the speakers would need around 120 hours and the rotel around 72 hours... Now does this time frame mean that i keep playing the system continuously for this period of time, or does it mean that i play it randomly for say 6 hours at a time to accumulate it to the required time break in??? Please i'm kind of confused, and would really appreciate the answers to these questions if possible... Thank you and Happy New Year!

...running them in, just enjoy your new toys!

I had a pair of Studio 60s for eight years, and they served well. I can remember firing them up the first time and thinking they sounded worse than the Titans they were replacing... definitely sounding different than my store demo. I can't really remember how long to loosen up, maybe 50ish hours? You can play Bela Fleck's "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo"... that'll work in your new mid-woofs :*)

Yeah, you'll want a minimum of about six feet between for a good soundstage. IME, like most speakers, they prefer to breathe a bit... 8" to the sidewalls is a bit close. You can toe-in as well as deaden the first reflection (if necessary) to combat.

Well, ultimately I decided to sell mine so I could make some space. As Paradigm is a large, well-respected company, my 60s fetched 75% of the original price. Granted, they were still super-clean, and I kept the boxes, but I thought that was pretty good. I'm sure they can go another 20 years... at least.

Have fun listening...

[Slippers On]

Look, there is no reason whatsoever to listen to "sales pitch" when you have the use of the www.

If you go into a sales room wanting to audition a pair of speakers then ask the sales guy to move the speakers around to suit your tastes. I once got a guy to move the "chair" outside until I could hear the amps working properly. I jest you not! YOU are the custome.

Basite.. how far from your speakers is you listening position. Name speakers, room dimensions including height.

Slippers On

[basite]

Basite.. how far from your speakers is you listening position. Name speakers, room dimensions including height.

Slippers On


speakers are 1.96 m apart from eachother, I'm sitting 2,2 meters away from them...

speakers are Thiel CS2.3's,
room dimensions are 3.5m D x 4.5m W x 2,30m H; but there is a slant wall in the room (is slant the correct way of saying it?), but I don't have real troubles with it...

the Thiels are slightly toed in, and they're 49 cm from the back wall...

a more ideal room is always welcome, but I'm happy :)


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[melvin walker]

Melvin you should really tell us where you get your sources from:shocked:

Information is power ! my information has come over 50 years of listening , buying and reading about audio equipment
I have personally discussed audio with, Avery Fisher . Saul Marantz ,and Rudy Bozak .
I have traveled to audio shows in Los Angeles where I visited the JBL factory in Culver City and talked to studio engineers who set up many of the audio systems for the motion picture industry. Several of the engineers I talked with set up audio systems for MGM
musicals. Two of the engineers worked with Fred Astaire at RKO.

I bought my first audio system in 1958 , Stephens speakers , pilot pre-amp and power amp, Lesa turntable , and a autogourse cartridge.
In the St.louis area as an audiophile Spent many hours at the more than a dozen audio shops now all closed but active from 1958 thru the 1980's.Talking with other audiophiles about audio.

I have seen hundreds of audio companies go out of business. Observed the introduction of stereo , transistors , receivers , digital , CD's etc.
I have read thousands of audio magazines and audio books. Dating back to the 1950's.
I have observed live vs recorded sound in St,Louis at Powell Symphony Hall.
I have visited audio shows in Chicago , Kansas City , St.Louis , Los Angeles and London.

I have talked with men that has devoted their lives to audio. I have never heard an audio engineer or CEO's of any speaker company tell anyone that their speakers needed a break-in period. That may be true with the new speakers that are poorly designed.
This is an era of video not audio !

I would also like to know where you get your information. By the way I have keep most of my audio magazines , Audio , High Fidelity Magazine , Stereo Review , annual Stereo
reviews dating back to 1962 !

[Rich-n-Texas]

Very impressive resume Melvin! You're a well-travelled audiophile!

[audio amateur]

Is that why he says such misinformed stuff as Bernd has put it? I don't mean to be rude but some of the things you say Melvin counters your background. I'm surprised at some of the content in your posts

cheers and happy new year to all

[audio amateur]

PS: Slippers just curious do you not see that Basite or Bert sorry has the list of his rig as a signiture to his posts? Why then would you ask what type of speakers he has?

[melvin walker]

Is that why he says such misinformed stuff as Bernd has put it? I don't mean to be rude but some of the things you say Melvin counters your background. I'm surprised at some of the content in your posts

cheers and happy new year to all

I would very much enjoy reading about your audio experiences. You remain me of many
young men when they discuss basketball , their knowledge of basketball extends only back to Michael Jordan. Or when I hear most young people discuss history and they tell me the reason they don't know is they were not born than.

is audio any different ? How many audio books does the average so-called audiophile read today ? How many audio shows has that audio buff attended ? I have found on this forum many of you has never heard of Electro-Voice , a company that was a pioneer in amps as well as speakers. But I am not surprised . Surveys have revealed that most young Americans thought Japan fought on the side of America in World War Two !!

When I visit an audio showroom not Best Buy or stores in which the salesman doesn't know a tweeter from a hookworm , I am appalled at the lack of knowledge that the average audio salesperson knows about the products he or she sells.
Times have changed.

[Bernd]

Not everything that is modern is bad, it's called progress. And it's up to us to pick the good stuff and disgard the rubbish. I welcome somebody like Melvin into our little family, but I don't think it is necessary to list all ones experiences over the last 50 years in the first few posts. As there is no way of proving that, and by stating that "good speakers" need no break in (does that mean that "bad speakers" do), Melvin somehow lost some credibility with me. I think the way things are put are as important. And just because someone is 17 or 27 or 37 etc does not make their contributions less valuable, and one should not presume that because somebody is of young age that they know nothing or don't read or visit audio shows or showrooms. Or most importantly, can't use their ears and judgement. What makes you Melvin, think your point is the only valuable or correct one ?

Just my 2ct.

Peace

:7:

[markw]

Information is power ! my information has come over 50 years of listening , buying and reading about audio equipment
I have personally discussed audio with, Avery Fisher . Saul Marantz ,and Rudy Bozak .
I have traveled to audio shows in Los Angeles where I visited the JBL factory in Culver City and talked to studio engineers who set up many of the audio systems for the motion picture industry. Several of the engineers I talked with set up audio systems for MGM
musicals. Two of the engineers worked with Fred Astaire at RKO.

I bought my first audio system in 1958 , Stephens speakers , pilot pre-amp and power amp, Lesa turntable , and a autogourse cartridge.
In the St.louis area as an audiophile Spent many hours at the more than a dozen audio shops now all closed but active from 1958 thru the 1980's.Talking with other audiophiles about audio.

I have seen hundreds of audio companies go out of business. Observed the introduction of stereo , transistors , receivers , digital , CD's etc.
I have read thousands of audio magazines and audio books. Dating back to the 1950's.
I have observed live vs recorded sound in St,Louis at Powell Symphony Hall.
I have visited audio shows in Chicago , Kansas City , St.Louis , Los Angeles and London.

I have talked with men that has devoted their lives to audio. I have never heard an audio engineer or CEO's of any speaker company tell anyone that their speakers needed a break-in period. That may be true with the new speakers that are poorly designed.
This is an era of video not audio !

I would also like to know where you get your information. By the way I have keep most of my audio magazines , Audio , High Fidelity Magazine , Stereo Review , annual Stereo
reviews dating back to 1962 !Wow! I wonder what your hearing abilities are at your age after all this listening experience.

I don't wonder if all your judgments are based on past experiences and not on what is current.

IOIW, my Mom spent the last years of her life trying to find Manhattan clam chowder that tasted like her mother used to make, always bemoaning the fact that nobody came close. It was sad watching her trying to recapture her precious youth.

"When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
And though my lack of edu---cation
Hasn't hurt me none
I can read the writing on the wall

Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world's a sunny day, Oh yeah
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama don't take my Kodachrome away

If you took all the girls I knew
When I was single
And brought them all together for one night
I know they'd never match
my sweet imagination
everything looks WORSE in black and white

Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world's a sunny day, Oh yeah
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama don't take my Kodachrome away

Mama don't take my Kodachrome away
Mama don't take my Kodachrome away
Mama don't take my Kodachrome away"

Thanks to Paul Simon

[JohnMichael]

I have to ask MW about speakers needing to be 12 feet apart. I have never heard that a set distance was important as placing speakers in the room so they sound their best. What should those of us do who can not seperate the speakers 12 feet?

[Bernd]

[QUOTE=markw

"When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
And though my lack of edu---cation
Hasn't hurt me none
I can read the writing on the wall

Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world's a sunny day, Oh yeah
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama don't take my Kodachrome away

If you took all the girls I knew
When I was single
And brought them all together for one night
I know they'd never match
my sweet imagination
everything looks WORSE in black and white

Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world's a sunny day, Oh yeah
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama don't take my Kodachrome away

Mama don't take my Kodachrome away
Mama don't take my Kodachrome away
Mama don't take my Kodachrome away"[/QUOTE]

That, dear sir, is superb.:smilewinkgrin:

Hope you had a great x-mas.

Peace

:7:

[Bernd]

I have to ask MW about speakers needing to be 12 feet apart. I have never heard that a set distance was important as placing speakers in the room so they sound their best. What should those of us do who can not seperate the speakers 12 feet?

I guess, find another hobby. Maybe house building.:lol:

Hope all is well your end JM.

Peace

:7:

[melvin walker]

Not everything that is modern is bad, it's called progress. And it's up to us to pick the good stuff and disgard the rubbish. I welcome somebody like Melvin into our little family, but I don't think it is necessary to list all ones experiences over the last 50 years in the first few posts. As there is no way of proving that and by stating that "good speakers" need no break in (does that mean that "bad speakers" do), Melvin somehow lost credibility with me. I think the way things are put are as important. And just because someone is 17 or 27 or 37 etc does not make their contributions less valuable, and one should not presume that because somebody is of young age that they know nothing or don't read or visit audio shows or showrooms. Or most importantly, can't use their ears and judgement. What makes you Melvin, think your point is the only valuable or correct one ?

Just my 2ct.

Peace

:7:

I never said everything that is modern is bad . Today there is a lot of junk out there called speakers. Contributions has nothing to do with information. Youth has it's limitations , especially today. I will ask again what audio shows have you visited. One has to be exposed are how can one make an informed decision.

I have never said in any of my post that my point of view is the only point of view. I have presented a counterpoint.
We as consumers are aware that Ferrari is the best sports car , or that Patek Philippe is the finest watch and a few of us are aware that Kiton makes the finest men of the rack suits.
To purchase these items takes money and information. Not so with audio , most people own some kind of audio system. Generally not a very good one. The only difference is that those that own a poor audio system is not aware of it. Who would argue that a Ferrari is not superior to a Corvette ? are that a Rolex is not equal in quality to a Patek Philippe
Very few.
In audio we have those debates. The problem is that most young audio buffs has never heard a really good sounding audio system. Never attended a concert in an excellent concert hall. Are listen to a live vs recorded demonstration.
That is my counterpoint.

[basite]

I would very much enjoy reading about your audio experiences. You remain me of many
young men when they discuss basketball , their knowledge of basketball extends only back to Michael Jordan. Or when I hear most young people discuss history and they tell me the reason they don't know is they were not born than.

is audio any different ? How many audio books does the average so-called audiophile read today ? How many audio shows has that audio buff attended ? I have found on this forum many of you has never heard of Electro-Voice , a company that was a pioneer in amps as well as speakers. But I am not surprised . Surveys have revealed that most young Americans thought Japan fought on the side of America in World War Two !!

When I visit an audio showroom not Best Buy or stores in which the salesman doesn't know a tweeter from a hookworm , I am appalled at the lack of knowledge that the average audio salesperson knows about the products he or she sells.
Times have changed.


I'm sorry, I'm just 17.
does that mean I can't be an audiophile before I'm like 60 or so? I visit more than enough hifi shows every year, I read alot of audio books, and learn alot on the internet (on forums, like these), and listen to various systems. My audio dealer happens to be an audiophile, and has knowledge enough. I learn alot there too, as well as hearing systems there too, I speak to many other audiophiles, both young and old.


And do I know EV? yes, I happen to know EV pretty well.
and guess why it's not often mentioned here on AR, well let me give you a hint.
visit their site:
http://www.electrovoice.com

they were a audio pioneer, unfortunately, they only build PA gear today, to entertain the kids who don't care about audio.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[basite]

The problem is that most young audio buffs has never heard a really good sounding audio system. Never attended a concert in an excellent concert hall. Are listen to a live vs recorded demonstration.
That is my counterpoint.


as it happens, I did.

I heard systems no vintage system could even touch.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Information is power ! my information has come over 50 years of listening , buying and reading about audio equipment
I have personally discussed audio with, Avery Fisher . Saul Marantz ,and Rudy Bozak .
I have traveled to audio shows in Los Angeles where I visited the JBL factory in Culver City and talked to studio engineers who set up many of the audio systems for the motion picture industry. Several of the engineers I talked with set up audio systems for MGM
musicals. Two of the engineers worked with Fred Astaire at RKO.

I bought my first audio system in 1958 , Stephens speakers , pilot pre-amp and power amp, Lesa turntable , and a autogourse cartridge.
In the St.louis area as an audiophile Spent many hours at the more than a dozen audio shops now all closed but active from 1958 thru the 1980's.Talking with other audiophiles about audio.

I have seen hundreds of audio companies go out of business. Observed the introduction of stereo , transistors , receivers , digital , CD's etc.
I have read thousands of audio magazines and audio books. Dating back to the 1950's.
I have observed live vs recorded sound in St,Louis at Powell Symphony Hall.
I have visited audio shows in Chicago , Kansas City , St.Louis , Los Angeles and London.

I have talked with men that has devoted their lives to audio. I have never heard an audio engineer or CEO's of any speaker company tell anyone that their speakers needed a break-in period. That may be true with the new speakers that are poorly designed.
This is an era of video not audio !

I would also like to know where you get your information. By the way I have keep most of my audio magazines , Audio , High Fidelity Magazine , Stereo Review , annual Stereo
reviews dating back to 1962 !
When I was 13 I begged my parents to buy me a Heathkit so I could build my first amp, and thus thrust me into eventual Audiophile status. Sadly they couldn't afford it so I ended up with a Radio Shack 10 in 1 kit. :(

[Slippers On]

PS: Slippers just curious do you not see that Basite or Bert sorry has the list of his rig as a signiture to his posts? Why then would you ask what type of speakers he has?


AA, can't see the wood for the trees......sorry if any of my posts may have sounded offensive yesterday, I reckon I had a little too much Christmas spirit and got a little pi**ed off:rolleyes:

New Christmas Slippers On

[jim goulding]

Tony- I'm tuning in kind of late here but can confirm that comments by AA and Feanor are correct. The size of the triangle will depend on the dimensions of your room as you shouldn't want to get to close to boundaries. How about posting the length and width dimensions of your room (in feet, if you don't mind) for more relevant help particular to your room. Thanks. I can tell you that you don't want bulky cabinetry or objects (save for your chair, perhaps) in the space around your seat and your stage. Anywhere in the room is my recommendation, if possible. Use open legged tables instead.

[E-Stat]

What exactly is the minimum distance between speakers tweeter to tweeter??? And also whats the minimum distance between the speaker and the wall???
There is no one answer, only recommended starting points as there are too many variables. Only experimentation can ultimately answer that question. The lateral spacing does, however, have a great effect upon imaging. Set too far apart, there will be a lack of sufficient center fill. Close proximity to walls has a negative effect as wall reflections will confuse the image. I put fake ficus trees at the first reflection points for diffusion. Set too closely together, the apparent image width will be compromised. Distance to back wall affects frequency response as well. I found the Cardas method (http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup) a good place to start. It takes into consideration the dimensions of the room to locate the optimum position. As others have suggested, height also be important for speakers of that type. Do you have any stands?


Plus i'm not entirely sure about this breaking in period...
My experience is that modern speakers do go through such a period, but I wouldn't obsess over it. Just play them normally. It only comes into play if you are trying to do comparisons where they may not yet be operating optimally.

rw

[audio amateur]

AA, can't see the wood for the trees......sorry if any of my posts may have sounded offensive yesterday, I reckon I had a little too much Christmas spirit and got a little pi**ed off:rolleyes:

New Christmas Slippers On

I didn't feel offended in any way i just thought some of the questions in your posts were a bit strange/answers were obvious. That's why I asked

Keep those slippers on:6:

[melvin walker]

I'm sorry, I'm just 17.
does that mean I can't be an audiophile before I'm like 60 or so? I visit more than enough hifi shows every year, I read alot of audio books, and learn alot on the internet (on forums, like these), and listen to various systems. My audio dealer happens to be an audiophile, and has knowledge enough. I learn alot there too, as well as hearing systems there too, I speak to many other audiophiles, both young and old.


And do I know EV? yes, I happen to know EV pretty well.
and guess why it's not often mentioned here on AR, well let me give you a hint.
visit their site:
http://www.electrovoice.com

they were a audio pioneer, unfortunately, they only build PA gear today, to entertain the kids who don't care about audio.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Have you ever listened to an Electro-Voice Patrician or Cardinal speaker system ?
Have you ever listened to Electro-Voice electronics ? How about a Jensen Imperial
speaker system ? Maybe a Pair of Tannoy Churchill speakers. ?

One think we must remember is that speakers move air ! simple physics. A speakers job is to fool the ear , so that a piece of audio gear will sound like a Steinway piano.
How well it succeeds is based on how well it is constructed.

Audio geeks are in most cases no more successful in fooling the ear than audio engineers
were 40 years ago. If there is a difference it would in my opinion be that today we have fewer experiences , because experiences cost more money.
Example McIntosh at one time held clients in every major city , not today , to expensive.
It helped a lot of audiophiles meet the engineers , and technical people from McIntosh an have their audio equipment tested by Mac technicians,
Times have changed.

[melvin walker]

as it happens, I did.

I heard systems no vintage system could even touch.

What vintage systems have you heard. Was there an A-B test. Which vintage speakers , amps , TT , arms cartriges , tape decks , and tone arms have you listened to ?

[melvin walker]

I guess, find another hobby. Maybe house building.:lol:

Hope all is well your end JM.

Peace

:7:

The speakers are placed 12 feet apart to create an excellent natural stereo image.
The better the speakers are engineered the better the image.
Large speakers 5 feet or taller do a better job because of the listening height.
If you will note when sitting at a concert the sound level is at listening height.

I am not referring to a rock concert , but a classical or jazz concert.
Speakers less than 5 feet tall can do the job , but they are a compromise.
The problem of course is cost.

[melvin walker]

Wow! I wonder what your hearing abilities are at your age after all this listening experience.

I don't wonder if all your judgments are based on past experiences and not on what is current.

IOIW, my Mom spent the last years of her life trying to find Manhattan clam chowder that tasted like her mother used to make, always bemoaning the fact that nobody came close. It was sad watching her trying to recapture her precious youth.

"When I think back
On all the crap I learned in high school
It's a wonder
I can think at all
And though my lack of edu---cation
Hasn't hurt me none
I can read the writing on the wall

Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world's a sunny day, Oh yeah
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama don't take my Kodachrome away

If you took all the girls I knew
When I was single
And brought them all together for one night
I know they'd never match
my sweet imagination
everything looks WORSE in black and white

Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world's a sunny day, Oh yeah
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama don't take my Kodachrome away

Mama don't take my Kodachrome away
Mama don't take my Kodachrome away
Mama don't take my Kodachrome away"

Thanks to Paul Simon

As one ages it is natural for them to not hear as well. Women can hear better than men , especially at higher frequencies. What bothers me is the short cuts that manufactures take today in building audio equipment. Mainly I think because we have a less informed public.

There are excellent audio systems , they are just very expensive. There are excellent cars , again very expensive. A pair of good Italian shoes today cost over $450.00.
and a good suit over $1000.00. The same is true of audio.
Labor and materials has increased in price on most goods and services. That has caused a decline in quality for most affordable items.
We as a result have lower expectations. We except poorer customer services , and poorer quality in things we buy.
That is the times.

[markw]

As one ages it is natural for them to not hear as well. Women can hear better than men , especially at higher frequencies. What bothers me is the short cuts that manufactures take today in building audio equipment. Mainly I think because we have a less informed public.

There are excellent audio systems , they are just very expensive. There are excellent cars , again very expensive. A pair of good Italian shoes today cost over $450.00.
and a good suit over $1000.00. The same is true of audio.
Labor and materials has increased in price on most goods and services. That has caused a decline in quality for most affordable items.
We as a result have lower expectations. We except poorer customer services , and poorer quality in things we buy.
That is the times.Perhaps it's because your listeing skills were at their peak when records and RTR tape were in their early days, and their high end was limited, is the reason that modern equipment, with it's more extended high end, doesn't seem to float your boat. That's a subjective decison you are trying to claim is an objective one.

You really shouldn't try to make your preference a gold standard for everyone else to live by yet you seem to take pride in looking down your nose at everyone who doesn't see your way..

Not everyone wants or needs $1000 suits of $450 Italian shoes, not to mention mega-buck watches which don't keep time as accurately as a Wal-Mart Timex. Actually, jeans and sport jackets are worn by some of the most watched and liiked up to people in the world.

To imply people must overspend to impress you, or others like you, is judging others by standards you apply to yourself, perhaps to justify your own self-worth or ego. Remember, not everyone needs to overspend simply to impress others to feel good about themselves and by thinking they should do it to impress others like you merely points to your own overstimation of yoiur real worth in this world.

As for changing times and quality. well. my first real stereo was a 6 wpc Lafayette LA-224a tube amplifier, for which I saved in Junior High school. It cost $59.95 and couldn't drive my Wharfedale 40 C's.

That $60 amplifier in 1965 would be about the equivalent of about $380 in today's dollars and that will buy a NAD, Cambridge or similar audio, not junk as you would have us believe. Any of these will handily outperform That Marantz 7C/8B combo of which you are so fond.

Today, I can go to Circuit City and for about $90 or so come out with a stereo receiver that will undoubtedly outperform that little amplifier.

As you see, today we have choices that didnt exist in the old days.

Here's a surprise for you. I have a Marantz 7c and 8, not to mention a Fisher FM-100b and, while they are nice pieces of vintage gear and fun to play with, they don't hold a candle to modern, moderately priced gear, They mate well with those Wharfedales and, as long as the choice of source material is carefully chosen, that combination can produce a nice sound but it can easily be outperformed by more modest modern gear unless you prefer a dark, muddied sound to begin with.

Old cars are nice, too, but most can't keep up with modern cars in today's real world, particularly as far as braking and tire construction is concerned.

You are living in the past and can't admit that tremendous advances have been made.

But, since you've been pontificating on how great things were and how sad things are today and how nobody here knows anything, here's some questions for you.

What are you runnng today?

What's a "good", reasonably priced, modern system in your eyes?

Remember, not everyone has your tastes and they may well be wider and more varied.

[basite]

Have you ever listened to an Electro-Voice Patrician or Cardinal speaker system ?
Have you ever listened to Electro-Voice electronics ? How about a Jensen Imperial
speaker system ? Maybe a Pair of Tannoy Churchill speakers. ?

One think we must remember is that speakers move air ! simple physics. A speakers job is to fool the ear , so that a piece of audio gear will sound like a Steinway piano.
How well it succeeds is based on how well it is constructed.

Audio geeks are in most cases no more successful in fooling the ear than audio engineers
were 40 years ago. If there is a difference it would in my opinion be that today we have fewer experiences , because experiences cost more money.
Example McIntosh at one time held clients in every major city , not today , to expensive.
It helped a lot of audiophiles meet the engineers , and technical people from McIntosh an have their audio equipment tested by Mac technicians,
Times have changed.


I heard the tannoys...

let me ask you the same question:
Have you ever heard Wilson Maxx speakers, or Avalon Isis, or Avalon Eidilon Diamond? Or B&W 802's, Or Von Scheikert VR-9's or even VR-4 se's? Mcintosh XTR2k's? Magnepan 3.6's, Martin Logan Summits? apogees? Verity Audio speakers?

have you? probably not. I did.

I know exactly what speakers do, don't try to explain that to me. I also know they happen to do a better job fooling our ears than they did 50 years ago.

have you actually checked the link to EV's website? if you did, you probably understood my point: EV is no more what it used to be, all it does today is building crappy PA speakers.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[melvin walker]

Perhaps it's because your listeing skills were at their peak when records and RTR tape were in their early days, and their high end was limited, is the reason that modern equipment, with it's more extended high end, doesn't seem to float your boat. That's a subjective decison you are trying to claim is an objective one.

You really shouldn't try to make your preference a gold standard for everyone else to live by yet you seem to take pride in looking down your nose at everyone who doesn't see your way..

Not everyone wants or needs $1000 suits of $450 Italian shoes, not to mention mega-buck watches which don't keep time as accurately as a Wal-Mart Timex. Actually, jeans and sport jackets are worn by some of the most watched and liiked up to people in the world.

To imply people must overspend to impress you, or others like you, is judging others by standards you apply to yourself, perhaps to justify your own self-worth or ego. Remember, not everyone needs to overspend simply to impress others to feel good about themselves and by thinking they should do it to impress others like you merely points to your own overstimation of yoiur real worth in this world.

As for changing times and quality. well. my first real stereo was a 6 wpc Lafayette LA-224a tube amplifier, for which I saved in Junior High school. It cost $59.95 and couldn't drive my Wharfedale 40 C's.

That $60 amplifier in 1965 would be about the equivalent of about $380 in today's dollars and that will buy a NAD, Cambridge or similar audio, not junk as you would have us believe. Any of these will handily outperform That Marantz 7C/8B combo of which you are so fond.

Today, I can go to Circuit City and for about $90 or so come out with a stereo receiver that will undoubtedly outperform that little amplifier.

As you see, today we have choices that didnt exist in the old days.

Here's a surprise for you. I have a Marantz 7c and 8, not to mention a Fisher FM-100b and, while they are nice pieces of vintage gear and fun to play with, they don't hold a candle to modern, moderately priced gear, They mate well with those Wharfedales and, as long as the choice of source material is carefully chosen, that combination can produce a nice sound but it can easily be outperformed by more modest modern gear unless you prefer a dark, muddied sound to begin with.

Old cars are nice, too, but most can't keep up with modern cars in today's real world, particularly as far as braking and tire construction is concerned.

You are living in the past and can't admit that tremendous advances have been made.

But, since you've been pontificating on how great things were and how sad things are today and how nobody here knows anything, here's some questions for you.

What are you runnng today?

What's a "good", reasonably priced, modern system in your eyes?

Remember, not everyone has your tastes and they may well be wider and more varied.

Your analysis of me is a bore. If you have a counterpoint present it. The issue is audio , or have you forgotten that. I have my examples , what are yours ?
The issues on this site is audio , opinions , comparison etc. Not unqualified personal analysis.

If you wish to compare an amp or speaker built pre 1970's , that is what this forum is about. If you think audio equipment is superior to the audio equipment of the 70's I agree.
There is a market for $2000,00 suits and $10,000 watches , they may not be for you.
The issue here is not to impress me but offer your opinions regarding audio.
I think this website is called AudioReview.

[E-Stat]

The issue is audio , or have you forgotten that. I have my examples , what are yours ? The issues on this site is audio , opinions , comparison etc. Not unqualified personal analysis... The issue here is not to impress me but offer your opinions regarding audio.
Perhaps you are unaware of the way your posts come across. They speak as though your absolute standards "The speaker cabinets should be 12 feet apart." are to be accepted as gospel.

rw

[basite]

Your analysis of me is a bore. If you have a counterpoint present it. The issue is audio , or have you forgotten that. I have my examples , what are yours ?
The issues on this site is audio , opinions , comparison etc. Not unqualified personal analysis.


yeah, the issue is audio

Who started about watches and clothes and stuff like that eh?

I believe it was you, Melvin.

[JohnMichael]

Your analysis of me is a bore. If you have a counterpoint present it. The issue is audio , or have you forgotten that. I have my examples , what are yours ?
The issues on this site is audio , opinions , comparison etc. Not unqualified personal analysis.

If you wish to compare an amp or speaker built pre 1970's , that is what this forum is about. If you think audio equipment is superior to the audio equipment of the 70's I agree.
There is a market for $2000,00 suits and $10,000 watches , they may not be for you.
The issue here is not to impress me but offer your opinions regarding audio.
I think this website is called AudioReview.



I think what is troubling is you state things as though they are fact when they are just your experiences and opinions. As far as watches I would rather have a Blancain Tourbillon.

[markw]

Your analysis of me is a bore.Perhaps, but it's spot on.


If you have a counterpoint present it.Counterpoint to what? My post was a counterpoint to all the pompous strutting you've been doing here lately.


The issue is audio, or have you forgotten that. I have my examples , what are yours ?WTF??? 'What examples do you want? You want me to read some old magazines and drop names like you do? Sorry, I post what I can verify as true.


The issues on this site is audio , opinions , comparison etc. Not unqualified personal analysis.Hey. you're the one that keeps bringing up $100 dollar suits, $450 Italian shoes and how the combination of sport coats and jeans repulse you, not us. Again, I merely responded to the subject matter you dragged into your posts to muddy the waters. Deal with it.


If you wish to compare an amp or speaker built pre 1970's , that is what this forum is about.I believe I did that. Did you forget that already? If you will note, out ofthe two of us, I'm the only one that bothered to make a direct comparison between several pieces of gear I own (or owned. The LA-2241 is long gone)). You.OTOH, are just spouting off more drivel that anyone can find on the internet and drop historical names like you're audio's answer to Forrest Gump, another fictional character.


If you think audio equipment is superior to the audio equipment of the 70's I agree.Note bolded test. Exactly what audio equipment are you referring to? Be specific now...


There is a market for $2000,00 suits and $10,000 watches , they may not be for you. The issue here is not to impress me but offer your opinions regarding audio.I'm not worried about impressing you at all.. And, believe me, you surely impressed me (and a few others here), but not in the manner you would have liked.

I think this website is called AudioReview.[/QUOTE]Then why all the talk about overpriced suits, shoes, cars and watches if not to give you an opportunity to make others feel inferior?

Perhaps it's not just your ears that no longer function but, take heart. Viagra and Cialis can work wonders I hear, but I recommend you find a partner that can tolerate your BS first. Your arms might be out of shape, too.

TTFN, old man. Time for your meds.

P.S.. I see you still didn't answer the two simple questions I posed. If you weren't BSing us all along, that first one should have bween a no--brainer.

[melvin walker]

yeah, the issue is audio

Who started about watches and clothes and stuff like that eh?

I believe it was you, Melvin.

Those sir was comparsions , examples.

[melvin walker]

Perhaps, but it's spot on.

Counterpoint to what? My post was a counterpoint to all the pompous strutting you've been doing here lately.

WTF??? 'What examples do you want? You want me to read some old magazines and drop names like you do? Sorry, I post what I can verify as true.

Hey. you're the one that keeps bringing up $100 dollar suits, $450 Italian shoes and how the combination of sport coats and jeans repulse you, not us. Again, I merely responded to the subject matter you dragged into your posts to muddy the waters. Deal with it.

I believe I did that. Did you forget that already? If you will note, out ofthe two of us, I'm the only one that bothered to make a direct comparison between several pieces of gear I own (or owned. The LA-2241 is long gone)). You.OTOH, are just spouting off more drivel that anyone can find on the internet and drop historical names like you're audio's answer to Forrest Gump, another fictional character.

Note bolded test. Exactly what audio equipment are you referring to? Be specific now...

I'm not worried about impressing you at all.. And, believe me, you surely impressed me (and a few others here), but not in the manner you would have liked.

I think this website is called AudioReview.Then why all the talk about overpriced suits, shoes, cars and watches if not to give you an opportunity to make others feel inferior?

Perhaps it's not just your ears that no longer function but, take heart. Viagra and Cialis can work wonders I hear, but I recommend you find a partner that can tolerate your BS first. Your arms might be out of shape, too.

TTFN, old man. Time for your meds.[/QUOTE]

You appear to have a problem discussing audio ! The issue is audio , to agree to disagree.
I have no interest in your opinion of me. Can't you understand that.
This is an excellent website , try and stick to audio.
Cars and clothing was my examples. They were used to support my position.
If you disagree with my opinions as it regards to "AUDIO" than counter.

[basite]

ok, then let's talk audio.

you still haven' answered my question.

Which of those speakers I mentioned above have you heard?

[melvin walker]

I think what is troubling is you state things as though they are fact when they are just your experiences and opinions. As far as watches I would rather have a Blancain Tourbillon.

Blancain is an excellent watch ,Blancain Tourbillion outstanding.
I have an opinion . we all have opinions. The purpose of this site is to discuss audio.
You can agree to disagree. I present my positions , others theirs.

Can't we agree to disagree ? There are several sites I am a member of. Clothing , cars .
watches , etc. This is the only site where it appears there is a reluctance to agree to disagree.
Why attempt to analyze what is said , just give a countering argument.

[markw]

You appear to have a problem discussing audio ! The issue is audio , to agree to disagree. I have no interest in your opinion of me. Can't you understand that..I did discuss audio in post 42 of this thread and you summarily ignored it. Sorry, there's no charge for the extras. It's my contribution to this site. You ask for it, you got it. ..and will continue to get it as long as you ask for it.


This is an excellent website..It was before you showed up with all your pompous, know it all from the 50's attitude and spat on everyone else. I could handle your BS, but when you blurted out the 11th commandment, "The speakers SHOULD be 12 feet apart" like Charlton Heston coming down the mountain with the tablets, I realized that, in spite of all your bluster and bravado, you really don't know squat about this hobby or, at best, you didn't learn a thing in all those years of experience you claim.

There's been a lot of advances in the last fifty years. Thiele Small parameters, the Cardas method of speaker placement, etc, etc...

We all got along and offered friendly, supportive advice to any and all who asked.

Our goal isn't to put people down for their equipment, but rather to nurture them and help them grow. ...not step on them and squash them like a bug because they weren't around 40 - 50 years ago or own melvin walker approved equipment.

you might want to jot that down for future reference.

OK, let's talk audio. I see you still didn't answer the two simple questions I posed several posts ago. If you weren't BSing us all along, that first one should have bween a no--brainer.

I'll see ya around. Ya never know when you'll have me jump into one of your conversations when you need to be dragged back to reality.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Melvin,

These are the statements that define you, and probably got you off on the wrong foot with some of us:

I have personally discussed audio with, Avery Fisher . Saul Marantz ,and Rudy Bozak .
I have traveled to audio shows in Los Angeles where I visited the JBL factory in Culver City and talked to studio engineers who set up many of the audio systems for the motion picture industry. Several of the engineers I talked with set up audio systems for MGM
musicals. Two of the engineers worked with Fred Astaire at RKO.

I bought my first audio system in 1958 , Stephens speakers , pilot pre-amp and power amp, Lesa turntable , and a autogourse cartridge.
In the St.louis area as an audiophile Spent many hours at the more than a dozen audio shops now all closed but active from 1958 thru the 1980's.Talking with other audiophiles about audio.

I have seen hundreds of audio companies go out of business. Observed the introduction of stereo , transistors , receivers , digital , CD's etc.
I have read thousands of audio magazines and audio books. Dating back to the 1950's.
I have observed live vs recorded sound in St,Louis at Powell Symphony Hall.
I have visited audio shows in Chicago , Kansas City , St.Louis , Los Angeles and London.

I have talked with men that has devoted their lives to audio. I have never heard an audio engineer or CEO's of any speaker company tell anyone that their speakers needed a break-in period. That may be true with the new speakers that are poorly designed.
This is an era of video not audio !
There are no egotists here; maybe at other sites but my experience tells me that at the AR forums, we only try to help, not measure penis length.

My suggestion would be to either verify or retract those statements.

[melvin walker]

Melvin,

These are the statements that define you, and probably got you off on the wrong foot with some of us:

There are no egotists here; maybe at other sites but my experience tells me that at the AR forums, we only try to help, not measure penis length.

My suggestion would be to either verify or retract those statements.

One of your members ask for the information. Go back and read the post.
I would suggest that you learn a little respect for other members. There may be ladies reading these post.
I would add that on other forums the use of such language would disqualify your membership !

Life experiences does not make one an egotist. There are audiophiles that has a world of experiences in audio engineering and associations.

Yes you are correct this is not a forum in which all opinions are excepted. I might add the language used here is unbelievable. You can except my statements are reject them that is up to you.
I would suggest that you look up the word insecure.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Language?!?! Well, there IS one lady who is a member here and saying the word PENIS doesn't faze her. :rolleyes: What are you a priest? Please.

This message board has a filtering mechanism that will censor any curse words. Here's an example... **** you!!!

[JohnMichael]

Language?!?! Well, there IS one lady who is a member here and saying the word PENIS doesn't faze her. :rolleyes: What are you a priest? Please.

This message board has a filtering mechanism that will censor any curse words. Here's an example... **** you!!!




Thank you Rich oh wait you mean ForeverAutumn.:blush2: Well I was not offended either.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Thank you Rich oh wait you mean ForeverAutumn.:blush2: Well I was not offended either.
:lol:

Wouldn't want to PI$$ off the modurator! :cornut:

[frenchmon]

Well fellas...I think its time we stop this argument and get back to audio.

For what its worth, I think Melvin has a lot of information that was understood out of context. He was asked about his knowledge. He did give examples using cars, clothings, and watches.

And I do think Bastie, MarkW and others also have some very good audio information and knowledge as well, to add to the discussion. I think both sides have their bias...Melvin to the vintage stuff. His idea of audio is not found in todays geer unless you spend six figures. While not agreeing with him, I do see his point...and I don;t have to agree with his argument in order to see where he is coming from.

And the rest of us know you don't have to spend that kinda money to get great sound.

But what I do think, not being subject to the discussion, is that both sides over reacted. It escaladed higher than it should have.

So lets all just forget the discussion. And Melvin...you are the older person here, kindly use good wisdom and be more selective in how you say things...try not to sound so high and mighty, even if you are not trying to come across that way.

And fellas, I m sure our parents taught us better than to disrespect older foke, even if we think they are in left field.

Lets all get back to good audio...I learn from you guys...you all have great arguments, lets not spoil it for the lurkers trying to learn.


frenchmon

[bobsticks]

Everytime I check in with this thread I feel like I've just been lectured by the guy taking the minutes at the Evelyn Waugh Coffee Kvetch...

[frenchmon]

Everytime I check in with this thread I feel like I've just been lectured by the guy taking the minutes at the Evelyn Waugh Coffee Kvetch...

Iron Sharpens Iron! There is more than one way to skin a cat.

frenchmon

[Modernaire]

Not everything that is modern is bad, it's called progress. And it's up to us to pick the good stuff and disgard the rubbish. I welcome somebody like Melvin into our little family, but I don't think it is necessary to list all ones experiences over the last 50 years in the first few posts. As there is no way of proving that, and by stating that "good speakers" need no break in (does that mean that "bad speakers" do), Melvin somehow lost some credibility with me. I think the way things are put are as important. And just because someone is 17 or 27 or 37 etc does not make their contributions less valuable, and one should not presume that because somebody is of young age that they know nothing or don't read or visit audio shows or showrooms. Or most importantly, can't use their ears and judgement. What makes you Melvin, think your point is the only valuable or correct one ?

Just my 2ct.

Peace

:7:


One thing about "progression" these days is how many don not respect their elders. I'd rather sit and listen to someone with a long list of experiences over a 17 year old who's enamored with blue lights. Have we lost perspective at the AR forums?


I work in design, I work with an art director who's got years of experience and worked with big names in the industry. I respect his views and listen intently to his experiences. I gain so much. Sure, I do stand for my views on certain things concerning modern "progressions", but I have found that the best way to deal with old and new is to help bridge the two together.

The challenge, and who doesn't love a good challenge, is combining old and new harmoniously. I think this sort of view come in handy in audio or music or any other of our fascinations.

Continue.:)

[basite]

One thing about "progression" these days is how many don not respect their elders. I'd rather sit and listen to someone with a long list of experiences over a 17 year old who's enamored with blue lights. Have we lost perspective at the AR forums?


I do to, but while it's okay to listen, it's wrong to just see the things the older experienced perosn says as the absolute truth.

he said cables make 'almost no difference', well I'm trying out different interconnects now, and the difference sure ain't small.
and that 'good speakers don't need burn in', is also wrong, even the best speakers need to undergo the laws of physics.
and that speakers 'have to be 12 feet apart from eachother': Who ever said that? it might be a guideline, but it sure ain't completely true.

I also enjoy what Melvin is saying about the old days, I also think that we have to preserve the vintage things. But as others have said, you cannot use the old times as a weapon.

and I feel you are referring to me by saying "the 17 year old enamored with blue lights", but I have my opinions too, and I sure do have enough knowledge to defend them.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[frenchmon]

I do to, but while it's okay to listen, it's wrong to just see the things the older experienced perosn says as the absolute truth.

he said cables make 'almost no difference', well I'm trying out different interconnects now, and the difference sure ain't small.
and that 'good speakers don't need burn in', is also wrong, even the best speakers need to undergo the laws of physics.
and that speakers 'have to be 12 feet apart from eachother': Who ever said that? it might be a guideline, but it sure ain't completely true.

I also enjoy what Melvin is saying about the old days, I also think that we have to preserve the vintage things. But as others have said, you cannot use the old times as a weapon.

and I feel you are referring to me by saying "the 17 year old enamored with blue lights", but I have my opinions too, and I sure do have enough knowledge to defend them.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Bastie I understand that you won't let others walk all over you like you are a complete dummy...especially when you have a passion for audio as I and others do. Hey I'll be the first person to tell you I love this stuff. Most of my friends think I am nuts, they can't tell the difference in the sound of their car audio and their home audio that they got at Best Buy. But for us, if goes way beyond that stuff.

When a person like Melvin comes along, who is as old as he is, He kinda wants the respect that is do him. After all he is our elder, and I am jquilty as well of falling short here. I don't agree with some of the tihngs he is saying. But I can't imagine speakers costing $150,000 needing to be broken in. If they do, they had better do it before I get them home.

I could be wrong and chances are I am, but my point is this. One thing I have learned in life is that you just can't really win an argument from some one as old as Melvin, who has been around the block a time or two. Don't know if you are married, but its sorta like trying to argue with your wife...its a never ending battle. She will not give in most of the time. This is a proven fact. Well some old guys are like that. So the best thing we can do with audiophiles who come in her with the knowledge of Melvin, is to listen and take what you can from him, and leave the rest.

I once bragged to an old guy once about some things he was spouting about. He looked at me and said Keep living young man. I said what do you mean by that? He said you just needed to listen to me on this. I said so what do you mean by keep living? He said one day your turn will come to give away whats dear to you in the way of experience to some one younger that they can grow, so just keep living and don't die, or you will never see what its like to give it all away before you die.

That man just wanted to pass on what he had to gain and feel respected...no more , no less...thats Melvin, after all what else does an old man have? The money can only go so far, respect follows you after you die...even if we don't agree with his knowledge, I think he's earned and aught to get his respect in that regard. So next time I think I will just listen and recieve the knowledge and leave the fluff.

Just more of my ramblings...I'm done now, lets get back to reading some of your wonderful postings on audio...I'm learning from you guys.


frenchmon

[johnny p]

It stopped snowing for a minute...........

Oh, I'm sorry.... I thought this was the "Way off topic" thread.

[audio amateur]

Speakers need breaking-in whether they are $200 or $150K

[frenchmon]

Speakers need breaking-in whether they are $200 or $150K

I suppose you are correct.

frenchmon:cornut:

[E-Stat]

...thats Melvin, after all what else does an old man have?
Gee, you make it sound like he's nearly dead. How about curiosity? The never ending search for new music? Seeking to hear your favorite music ever more clearly than you had ever done so before? For some reason, he believes music and audio somehow stopped developing somewhere in the 70s. I find that quite sad. Recently, for example, I was introduced to works by a young classical composer named Jennifer Higdon. It is a well recorded and emotional piece of music found on Telarc. While this my sound trite, ever listen to any soundtracks from the Harry Potter films? A few are quite special. The latest one has some very tasty music. At first I thought the disc was defective because one track sounded blank while I first heard it in the car. What I discovered was that it had incredible dynamic range - the car was just a poor place to enjoy it.

I'm always learning something new at age 50 and hope that doesn't change when I'm 60. :)

rw

[frenchmon]

Gee, you make it sound like he's nearly dead. How about curiosity? The never ending search for new music? Seeking to hear your favorite music ever more clearly than you had ever done so before? For some reason, he believes music and audio somehow stopped developing somewhere in the 70s. I find that quite sad. Recently, for example, I was introduced to works by a young classical composer named Jennifer Higdon. It is a well recorded and emotional piece of music found on Telarc. While this my sound trite, ever listen to any soundtracks from the Harry Potter films? A few are quite special. The latest one has some very tasty music. At first I thought the disc was defective because one track sounded blank while I first heard it in the car. What I discovered was that it had incredible dynamic range - the car was just a poor place to enjoy it.

I'm always learning something new at age 50 and hope that doesn't change when I'm 60. :)

rw

I'm four years your junior and I'm with you:6:

frenchmon

[GMichael]

I just read this whole thread. I want those 20 minutes of my life back please.

To the OP,

Try to keep your speakers about 1.5 feet or more from the walls. Don't have them the exact same distance from the left and the right walls. A little difference there helps to keep reflections from adding up. Play around with them to see what sounds best to you from your seating position. There is no "one size fits all" answer to how far apart they should be no matter how long a person has been listening to music, or eating lunch with classical pianists & conductors. (Even if they drive $500,000 cars, wear $1000 suites or eat $300 meals) Try to get that equal lateral triangle thing going for you if you can. (distance apart equals the distance to where you sit/listen) If you have to choose, it's better for you to be farther away than it is for them to be farther apart (to a point).
Some speakers do indeed need a break in period to sound their best. It can be a few hours a day. It doesn't need to be all in one playing. I left mine on low at night and during the day till they sounded right to me. (Bernd's method sounds logical to me, but I've never tried it) Some speakers don't need as much break-in as others. I would think that if you paid $100,000 or more on them, then you could expect the manufacturer to break them in for you before shipping them.
I don't know if you amp needs a break in time or not. If it has tubes, then my guess is that it will improve over time. If it's SS then I highly doubt it will make a difference.

Good luck, and good listening. Glad to have you posting.

[Jimmy C]

...if Melvin Walker was related to our old friend James Davenport Briggs :^?

I don't mind a bit of levity in here...

[markw]

...if Melvin Walker was related to our old friend James Davenport Briggs :^?

I don't mind a bit of levity in here...But this guy was just a little too serious and didn't come off as an intended parody.

[Jimmy C]

But this guy was just a little too serious and didn't come off as an intended parody.

...ya hafta mix up your game here and there! Ha!

And aAAaCCcK... maybe SVI? <shudder>

B*)

[Tailwind]

The speaker cabinets should be 12 feet apart. How far from the wall depends on what type of speaker enclosures you are using. Very few bass enclosures work very well in corners , only horns. Depending on the enclosure type some speakers should be mounted on stands. Placing a speaker close to the wall increases base response. But again it depends on the type of bass enclosure.

There is no breaking in period for good speakers ! As for as tweeters , what kind of tweeters does your speaker system use ? horn or cone ? where are they placed in the enclosure ?
How much real knowledge does your audio sales person have concerning audio ? does he also sell video ?

Cables and interconnects plays such a small part in music reproduction. The most important parts of an audio system is speakers and amps.
The better the amps the cleaner the sound. The better the speakers the better it sounds.
Try reading some audio magazines , there are several that will assist you in learning more about audio.

I will add most audio salesmen have limited knowledge about audio. Unless you buy from a audio shop only , where there may be a salesman that is an audiophile. That may not be possible today because of home theatre systems, but you can try.

Where do you get 12 feet from. Maybe in your space. not in mine. Speakers interact with the room they are in. Its called "excited modes" Depending on where the speakers are in the room different modes will or can be excited. Placement is totally up to the listeners preference. If you hear boomy bass move them away from the rear wall and sometimes side walls. Try some deflector panals maybe if you have mode problems you cant control with placement .How wide the baffles are play a factor, driver size, type, the materail on the walls , the floor your furnishings all have a large impact on placement. AT Harmon International there is a series of white papers written by the audio engineers that design their loudspeakers .. It goes into detail about modes and how placement of speakers and furniture can affect the sound. Its worth a read if your having trouble getting what you want. If no bass move them more into a corner or straight back toward the wall basically there is no rule of thumb for distance as all rooms act differently with different types of speakers so just experiment and find the placement that sounds the best to your ears not melvins.

There most definatley is a breakin period for any loudspeaker. Planar or cone, They all move to create sound. When they are new the suspensions are much more tight than after a liberal breakin period. I build speakers all the time so I measure for theil small parameters and if you dont put some breakin time on the drivers before obtaining the parameters to aid in cab and xo modeling you will be building a box and a crossover for a speakers electromechanical characteristics that wont exist after they are broke in. And they can change considerable. But just for the record that doesnt mean you have to not use your speakers until they are broken in for listening to tunes, just that if you have an opinion about the way they sound at the time of purchase be sure to withhold judgement until the breakin period is over to be fair to the manufacturer that states that they do in fact require a break in. I personall run a few hz above the rated FS (nat resonant freq.) of the driver at about 10 volts measured for 3 or 4 hours. This improves the cooling as the coil is moving lots of air as the diaphram and cone suspension loosen up a little. On a driver that is not broken in there is a slight possibility that due to the reduced movement of the voice coil at any given volume due to the overly stiff suspension spider and surround material that the voice coil can overheat because not enough air being moved to keep it cool. I think Melvin works at Best Buy or wal mart either way he obviously has not done the reasearch himself that he is recommending to you.

[Tailwind]

I'm four years your junior and I'm with you:6:

frenchmon
Im 2 years your senior and Im hunting for new things every day. My dad before he died told me "You know I am not afraid of dying but I hate it that I wont see what technology brings in another 20 years. He was a superb musician (Violinist) as well an Electrical Engineer. To stop experiencing new things is to die in my opinion,.

[Tailwind]

Seems like whatever forum Im in it all about the same thing.

[Tailwind]

Well fellas...I think its time we stop this argument and get back to audio.

For what its worth, I think Melvin has a lot of information that was understood out of context. He was asked about his knowledge. He did give examples using cars, clothings, and watches.

And I do think Bastie, MarkW and others also have some very good audio information and knowledge as well, to add to the discussion. I think both sides have their bias...Melvin to the vintage stuff. His idea of audio is not found in todays geer unless you spend six figures. While not agreeing with him, I do see his point...and I don;t have to agree with his argument in order to see where he is coming from.

And the rest of us know you don't have to spend that kinda money to get great sound.

But what I do think, not being subject to the discussion, is that both sides over reacted. It escaladed higher than it should have.

So lets all just forget the discussion. And Melvin...you are the older person here, kindly use good wisdom and be more selective in how you say things...try not to sound so high and mighty, even if you are not trying to come across that way.

And fellas, I m sure our parents taught us better than to disrespect older foke, even if we think they are in left field.

Lets all get back to good audio...I learn from you guys...you all have great arguments, lets not spoil it for the lurkers trying to learn.


frenchmon

Thanks for this post it is to the point actually it covers the whole thing quite well. Lets get on with it.And as a side note respect is something that is earned not awarded due to ones age. Im almost 49 and am well respected in a few areas where I tend to dwell the most, audio , cars and guitar but its because I give information to help others of all ages freely openly and without attitude or a big head about the fact that I know something they dont. You have to earn respect!!!!!!!! And while in the process of teaching or helping I always learn something myself at some point. Thats what keeps it from being repetitive talk and drives me to go on and do it more. My neck was broken in a car wreck several years ago so I dont do things as fast or as much as I once did. But I stay in the feild helping where I can. thats the only reason I joined AR

[bobsticks]

Thanks for this post it is to the point actually it covers the whole thing quite well. Lets get on with it.And as a side note respect is something that is earned not awarded due to ones age. Im almost 49 and am well respected in a few areas where I tend to dwell the most, audio , cars and guitar but its because I give information to help others of all ages freely openly and without attitude or a big head about the fact that I know something they dont. You have to earn respect!!!!!!!! And while in the process of teaching or helping I always learn something myself at some point. Thats what keeps it from being repetitive talk and drives me to go on and do it more. My neck was broken in a car wreck several years ago so I dont do things as fast or as much as I once did. But I stay in the feild helping where I can. thats the only reason I joined AR

Good to have you onboard Tailwind.

[jrhymeammo]

OMG!!! There it is. The legendary 12'.