Car talk!

[ForeverAutumn]

I know that there are a number of car guys here and I'm looking for your advice.

My lease is up in May. I currently drive a Ford Escape XLT 4WD 3.0 litre engine. I love my Escape. Ford is trying to pressure me into commiting to a new Ford vehicle now. I'm going to the dealership to do some test-driving tomorrow. Where Ford is concerned, I'll be looking at a new Escape, Fusion and Focus.

When I was taking out my current lease 2.5 years ago, Ford's residual was so much higher on a lease than any of the other cars that I was looking at that the monthly payments on the Ford were hard to walk away from.

I did a lot of test driving back then and I also really liked the Mazda 6, Hyundai Santa Fe and Subaru Forester. In fact, the Forester would have been my first choice except it was a little pricey once I added in the options that I wanted.

Ford has since raised their residuals (how could they not?!) making their monthly payments less competitive than they were previously. This means that they aren't the slam-dunk that they've been for me in the past and I'll be weighing all my options. A new Escape with the same options as the one I'm currently driving is $4,000 less to purchase yet the monthly payments are about the same to lease (interest rates are also the same).

In the past, I've usually leased my cars. I HATE paying for car repairs and I tend to get bored and start thinking about a new car after a couple of years. My Escape has actually been the exception to the boredom and I would consider buying out my lease if the residual weren't so high (see the irony here?).

Because my lease isn't up until May I have lots of time to make this decision, but I prefer to do my test driving in the winter when I can test the car in poor conditions. From past experience, I also know that many dealerships will buy my lease out early if they think that they can make up the cost of the lease in the sale price (which they should be able to do with my car).

So, what other vehicles should I be looking at? My husband drives a two-seater pick-up truck so my car has to be a four door and have comfortable seating in the back. I also need a car that is reliable in the snow.

What are your opinions on the lease vs. buy argument?

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'm not nor have I ever been a fan of leasing unless it was through my company, which has never been the case, so take this FWIW...

First, a personal question: Do you have kids? You say you need comfortable seating in the back, so I assume that's either because you have kids or you want room for your adult friends when driving to Rush concerts...etc. :) That would be a major purchasing decision in my mind.

www.kbb.com (http://www.kbb.com) & www.edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com) for new and used car purchasing info. These are the sites I use when building and researching a new car purchase.

If you have no qualms about Microsoft invading your car, buy a Fusion or Focus. http://www.fordvehicles.com/sync/ Don't know if the Escape has this feature, but MS in a car is just scary to me. :skep:

The only concern I'd have about test driving in poor conditions is, for one thing, you can't get a good idea of how much pickup it's got when it merges onto the highway. If it's an auto, what will happen when you punch it and the trans downshifts? Of course you can see how well traction control works, but that's not an ideal way to test IMO. :eek:

Financing tips are beyond my realm so I'll leave it here.

Topspeed should be along shortly.

Hope this helps some.

[ForeverAutumn]

No kids. Occasional adult passengers. More often...golf clubs, curling brooms and guitars.

There's nothing like plowing your way through a big snow drift to test pick-up. :)

[Rich-n-Texas]

No kids. Occasional adult passengers. More often...golf clubs, curling brooms and guitars.

There's nothing like plowing your way through a big snow drift to test pick-up. :)
Actually that tests torque. Luckily I haven't plowed through any snow drifts since moving here to Texas 10 years ago.

BTW, did I mention that I cooked steaks out on the grill on Christmas Day?

[ForeverAutumn]

BTW, did I mention that I cooked steaks out on the grill on Christmas Day?

Yeah you mentioned it. But I don't eat steak. :ciappa:

Actually, since our big snow storm it's been unseasonably warm and a lot of the snow has melted. That doesn't make it warm enough to BBQ however...

[Feanor]

...
What are your opinions on the lease vs. buy argument?

In recent years I've driven Fords; witness my Taurus Wagon, below.

I've done the math. It's financially very advantageous to buy if you intend to keep the car for 4+ years. If you don't want to pop the cash, a line-of-credit, possibly mortgage-based might be an option since you can get bank prime or better. For shorter terms, 3-4 years, there is some argument for leasing.

A recent used car is a good option if you drive low mileage. I bought my 2002 Taurus at 1 year-old and will drive it 'till it disintegrates, hopefully another 5 years at least.
...

[ForeverAutumn]

My husband and I have both had bad experiences with used cars and I will never buy another car that's not under warranty. If I were going to buy used, I'd buy out my lease. Low mileage and I know the original owner. :cornut:

[Feanor]

My husband and I have both had bad experiences with used cars and I will never buy another car that's not under warranty. If I were going to buy used, I'd buy out my lease. Low mileage and I know the original owner. :cornut:

I bought my car from a Ford dealer and got the balance of the original base warranty; I could also have bought an extended warranty if I'd so chosen. Former fleet cars are typically sold by dealers on this basis and they don't have the risk associated with private sales or used car dealers.

[topspeed]

Buy vs. Lease:

I'm a firm believer in buying what appreciates and renting what depreciates, therefore I lease my cars. Besides, I can write them off through my company, so there are tax advantages as well. If you bore easily and don't rack up a ton of miles, leasing makes a lot of sense.

It sounds like you would like a car/SUV that has awd to compete with your winters, right? In the cute ute arena, the Escape/Mariner is probably my favorite. The CR-V is too bizarre in appearance and the RAV4 is too expensive.

Crossovers are the next big thing as they are car based (unibody), generally handle better, and get a bit better mileage. You might consider a Nissan Murano, Saturn Vue, or Ford Edge. I really like the Mazda CX7 as it's the most overtly sporty, however it doesn't afford a ton of storage. Great interior and exterior design too. The Hyundai Vera Cruz has been a media darling, but they don't lease very well. They are much better built now, but not enought to overcome the stigma of older Hyundai's...yet.

For cars, have you considered an Audi A4 2.0? Quattro awd and the 2L turbo four is one of the truly great engines out there right now. Excellent mileage and they should lease well as the residual should be decent. BMW's are great to lease as well as they have the highest residual of any brand (according to Edmunds/KBB) and when you lease, the only things that matter are cap cost, money factor, and residual. BMW's warranty also covers everything...oil changes, wiper blades, brakes...everything for 4 years. Stay away from the M models and my experience is they are very durable.

If those aren't your cup of tea, a Suburu Legacy GT is a heckuva nice car and a sleeper at stoplight drags. That car will flat boogey! The Fusion AWD is another excellent choice. My friend just bought one this week for $23,500 out the door. V6, leather, Sync, loaded. That's a good buy.

What are the most important things to you? Speed? Space? Reliability? Convenience? Import? Domestic?

[ForeverAutumn]

Well it's about time that you showed up! :)

You know, I've never even considered Audi or BMW. I've always thought of them as "expensive" cars. But as a lease, they're probably in my price range. I should take a look at them.

I've never been a big fan of Toyota cars and the couple of Honda dealerships that I've been too have really turned me off. It's the old "let me talk to my manager" routine. A huge waste of my time.

The things that are most important to me are reliability, good handling in bad weather, and storage. We're often carting around a couple of golf bags or my guitar so I need a car with lots of storage space. A sun roof is also something that I can't live without as is a decent sound system (but that can be added later).

Speed is important only so far as I want enough pick-up and power to be able to change lanes quickly and safely even with passengers and the air conditioner on (I once had an Excort LX with three passengers in it, going up a hill, and couldn't get the car to pass 40km/hr with my foot on the floor!). I'm not a speed demon, but I do have a bit of a heavy foot when passing or taking off from a stopped position.

AWD isn't mandatory as long as the car handles well in the snow. I don't think that the awd has ever kicked in on my current Escape so I'd be very comfortable driving a front wd with traction control.

I'll look at some of the cars that you mentioned on-line Speedy. If it's not too cold out on Saturday, I may go out and do some test-driving. Thanks for your input and I'll let you know how it goes.

[topspeed]

I've never been a big fan of Toyota cars and the couple of Honda dealerships that I've been too have really turned me off. It's the old "let me talk to my manager" routine. A huge waste of my time Ahh, a woman after my own heart. I can't ever see myself owning a Toyota or Toyota product. Great cars, just completely devoid of soul or personality.

Almost every vehicle has traction control these days and set of Blizzak tires can make a Mustang GT a decent winter car. A BMW 328i leases for around $367/mo, a bit more for the 328ix (awd).

BTW, for leasing you should really consider Lease-By-Tel (www.leasefax.com). I purchased my M3 from them and it was a terrific experience. As an internet purveyor, they have lines to dealerships all over the country. You tell them when you want the car and they'll find the dealership with the corresponding build slot. Everything is done by phone and fax; no haggling, no moronic "I need to talk to my manager" BS. Simply pick your car and options, let them know and they deliver the car to your doorstep. It's pretty cool. :cool:

Oh, did I mention they beat my best dealer quote by $200/mo?

If you're interested, PM me and I'll give you my guy's private number.

[ForeverAutumn]

Ahh, a woman after my own heart. I can't ever see myself owning a Toyota or Toyota product. Great cars, just completely devoid of soul or personality.

Almost every vehicle has traction control these days and set of Blizzak tires can make a Mustang GT a decent winter car. A BMW 328i leases for around $367/mo, a bit more for the 328ix (awd).

BTW, for leasing you should really consider Lease-By-Tel (www.leasefax.com). I purchased my M3 from them and it was a terrific experience. As an internet purveyor, they have lines to dealerships all over the country. You tell them when you want the car and they'll find the dealership with the corresponding build slot. Everything is done by phone and fax; no haggling, no moronic "I need to talk to my manager" BS. Simply pick your car and options, let them know and they deliver the car to your doorstep. It's pretty cool. :cool:

Oh, did I mention they beat my best dealer quote by $200/mo?

If you're interested, PM me and I'll give you my guy's private number.

You know, I actually considered a Mustang but my husband drives a two seater and we really need one car that seats four comfortably.

I would love to call your lease guy, but I'm in Canada so I don't think that he'll be able to help me. Thanks for the offer though.

Also car prices are considerably higher here. I just ran a quote on that 328i (coupe) that you mentioned and the purchase price (with the options that I want) is $50,000 before tax (add 13%). Compare this to the US site where the same car is only $41,000. At the Canadian price, I would have to put $6500 down to get the payments into my monthly budget.

[kexodusc]

Buy vs. Lease:

I'm a firm believer in buying what appreciates and renting what depreciates, therefore I lease my cars. Besides, I can write them off through my company, so there are tax advantages as well. If you bore easily and don't rack up a ton of miles, leasing makes a lot of sense.


Bingo.

Some people get great value out of owning a vehicle for longer than 4 years. That can't be disputed. For those of us who cycle through vehicles more often, don't rack up high mileage, or beat the snot out of them leasing can have tremendous advantage. In my case, the lower payment on a 4 year lease of my Accord saved me more money than the difference in final year payments and resale value of the vehicle at the end of year 5 had I bought it and financed for 5 years. And best part was, I would have been able to lease a brand new car instead of making payments on an older vehicle. More new car for my money....that's in limbo right now...but I digress...

I really liked the Nissan Rogue I drove, FA, could be worth a look.

As for Toyota - I'm number 3 in the can't seem to like it category. My favorite Toyota of the past few years had a Pontiac badge on it. It's also the best car GM never built.
The new Matrix looks like it has potential though...

[ForeverAutumn]

Thanks Kex. I've only purchased two cars in my life. The first was the used lemon that was my very first car. The second was my Escort GT which I purchased when the lease was up because I loved it, wanted to lease another, but they had stopped making them by then...so I bought my own used car.

Other than that, I've always leased. I was just looking for confirmation that was the right thing for me to be doing.

I looked at the Matrix and it's sister, the Vibe, back in 2005. I loved the look but hated the drive. They felt like small cars and I didn't want another small car.

How do you guys feel about Mazda's?

[Feanor]

Bingo.

Some people get great value out of owning a vehicle for longer than 4 years. That can't be disputed. For those of us who cycle through vehicles more often, don't rack up high mileage, or beat the snot out of them leasing can have tremendous advantage. In my case, the lower payment on a 4 year lease of my Accord saved me more money than the difference in final year payments and resale value of the vehicle at the end of year 5 had I bought it and financed for 5 years. And best part was, I would have been able to lease a brand new car instead of making payments on an older vehicle. More new car for my money....that's in limbo right now...but I digress...
...

If I'm not mistaken, the cost of money that pay on a lease is close to that on a chattel loan such as car loan, so there isn't much to choose in that respect, lease vs. buy, and the convenience of lease easily makes it the way to go if you're going to flip vehicles every 4 years. If you can finance at a lower rate, say around prime, then buying might still be the better way to go.

Since for me an automobile is a necessity, not a luxury, I have to go for the lowest cost. Since I can't charge any part of the cost to business and drive quite low mileage, this consists of:

Settling for a utilitarian vehicle
Buying a late-model used vehicle with residual warranty
Keeping it for a long time
Purchase it using an equity-secured line-of-credit.

[kexodusc]

Thanks Kex. I've only purchased two cars in my life. The first was the used lemon that was my very first car. The second was my Escort GT which I purchased when the lease was up because I loved it, wanted to lease another, but they had stopped making them by then...so I bought my own used car.

Other than that, I've always leased. I was just looking for confirmation that was the right thing for me to be doing.

I looked at the Matrix and it's sister, the Vibe, back in 2005. I loved the look but hated the drive. They felt like small cars and I didn't want another small car.

How do you guys feel about Mazda's?

Forgot about the tax - you pay less tax on the lease too...only 13% of the amortized amount rather than the full value of the vehicle. That's usually a few thousand bucks savings right there.

I could be getting 2 new cars this year if we stick around. The Mazda 3 Sport has been high on my wife's list for awhile now, the CX-7 was fun to drive, but I couldn't help but feel it was a bit overpriced, I liked it until I checked out how much it sold for. That's just my uneducated opinion, maybe it'll knock you off your feet? Maybe I'm still out of touch with Canadian prices. Just didn't seem like a $32K vehicle to me but what do I know?

In terms of awd/SUV's, the Suzuki Grand Vitara was fun too. I dont' know what kind of reviews it gets, I just them. It was a lot cheaper than the CX-7 as I recall.
I'm not much of an SUV fan, but I think if I was going in that direction the Grand Vitara would be up there.

If I was buying a mid-size sedan, I'd probably get a Nissan Altima like everyone else. Though I have high hopes for the new Malibu.
Those little Suzuki SX4 AWD's seem to be very popular too.

[topspeed]

How do you guys feel about Mazda's?Huge fan.

Mazda takes that Zoom-Zoom stuff seriously. They are very much like BMW in this respect, just priced a lot more sanely. Also, as a former Miata owner, I can testify that they are as reliable as the sunrise. I'm considering replacing the M3 with a Mazdaspeed3 and if you like the Vibe/Matrix, you'd love the Speed3. 262hp, 0-60 in 5.5s, tenacious handling, 30mpg, and an interior and exterior and are best in class, IMO. I'm trying to talk the wife into a CX9, but she's got her heart set on the gorgeous Buick Enclave (can't blame her, really). As you don't like "small cars," you should consider the new 6 due this summer. Here's a photo of the new car.

http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/Mazda/6/off1/Mazda_6_Frankfurt_027.jpg

[kexodusc]

If I'm not mistaken, the cost of money that pay on a lease is close to that on a chattel loan such as car loan, so there isn't much to choose in that respect, lease vs. buy, and the convenience of lease easily makes it the way to go if you're going to flip vehicles every 4 years. If you can finance at a lower rate, say around prime, then buying might still be the better way to go.
I have seen examples on a number of vehicles depending on the program lease/purchase finance rate and the lease residual, where buying would make more sense regardless. My wife's parents bought a Sunfire several years ago where the lease payment was only marginally less than the purchase payment at 0% interest...the caveat being you had 1 extra year of payments on a purchase plan, but the vehicle was owned and could be used as a downpayment towards the next vehicle...


Since for me an automobile is a necessity, not a luxury, I have to go for the lowest cost. Since I can't charge any part of the cost to business and drive quite low mileage, this consists of:

Settling for a utilitarian vehicle
Buying a late-model used vehicle with residual warranty
Keeping it for a long time
Purchase it using an equity-secured line-of-credit.
Just curious - the last few leases I've had have been 2.7% and 3.1% on Hondas. The current Accord has 2.9% lease rate. Those are well below prime.
Is your bank giving you a rate that low, or are the vehicles you're looking at demanding higher finance rates?

[kexodusc]

Huge fan.

Mazda takes that Zoom-Zoom stuff seriously. They are very much like BMW in this respect, just priced a lot more sanely. Also, as a former Miata owner, I can testify that they are as reliable as the sunrise. I'm considering replacing the M3 with a Mazdaspeed3 and if you like the Vibe/Matrix, you'd love the Speed3. 262hp, 0-60 in 5.5s, tenacious handling, 30mpg, and an interior and exterior and are best in class, IMO. I'm trying to talk the wife into a CX9, but she's got her heart set on the gorgeous Buick Enclave (can't blame her, really). As you don't like "small cars," you should consider the new 6 due this summer. Here's a photo of the new car.

http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/Mazda/6/off1/Mazda_6_Frankfurt_027.jpg
Now THAT's more like what the new Accord SHOULD have looked like...droooooolll....

[Feanor]

....

How do you guys feel about Mazda's?

I owned a rotary-engined RX-2 back in the day, viz. the mid-70s. On the up-side, it was a blast to drive and pretty reliable. On down-side, I had a couple of instance of very bad maintenance work by the dealers, and it used a heluva lot of gas for a small car.

Mine was sky-blue and had North American-style windows, but otherwised looked like this
...

[ForeverAutumn]

Huge fan.

Mazda takes that Zoom-Zoom stuff seriously. They are very much like BMW in this respect, just priced a lot more sanely. Also, as a former Miata owner, I can testify that they are as reliable as the sunrise. I'm considering replacing the M3 with a Mazdaspeed3 and if you like the Vibe/Matrix, you'd love the Speed3. 262hp, 0-60 in 5.5s, tenacious handling, 30mpg, and an interior and exterior and are best in class, IMO. I'm trying to talk the wife into a CX9, but she's got her heart set on the gorgeous Buick Enclave (can't blame her, really). As you don't like "small cars," you should consider the new 6 due this summer. Here's a photo of the new car.

http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/Mazda/6/off1/Mazda_6_Frankfurt_027.jpg

Now that's pretty! But those low profiles don't look very snow friendly to me.

[GMichael]

I drove a Mazda MX3-GS from 1992 till 1999. I put 196,000 miles on it before I sold it. It was still in great shape and ran like new. Never had any work done to it other than brakes at 125,000, a tune-up at 140,000, and oil changes every 5k with synthetic oil.
The low profile tires it came with weren't great in the snow, but I bought 4 extra rims and put snow tires on them. They lasted for several seasons and worked great. I was driving 55 miles (one way) to work every day. And that was on a narrow winding road with lots of hills. I would have bought another, but at the time, they were going through changes and didn't have any models that interested me. I've been looking at the Mazda 3, 5 door (which is a subcatagory with less hp than the Mazda 3 Sport) for my next car.

[GMichael]

Not bad looking for an "economy car."

[Feanor]

...

Just curious - the last few leases I've had have been 2.7% and 3.1% on Hondas. The current Accord has 2.9% lease rate. Those are well below prime.
Is your bank giving you a rate that low, or are the vehicles you're looking at demanding higher finance rates?

No, the bank charges me much more than that. But the lease rate perhaps means little in itself. The cost of money has to be determined based on the cash price you would pay for the car after discounts and haggling, not the nominal price for lease determination. The possibility exists that Honda's strategy is to promote leases over cash sales, but I'm sure I don't know reason they might have for doing that.

It was some time ago and I wasn't for Hondas, but I at the time I had a pretty exact I idea of what the least cost would be, and a fairly good idea of the cash price would be for a given model. I used net present value methods to determine the implicit interest rate of the least versus cash sale, and that interest rate was in the consumer loan range, several APR percentage points above prime.

[ForeverAutumn]

What a rip off! I was just on the Mazda site running some prices. The interest rate to lease a Mazda 3 Sport is 4.4% for 36 months. The rate to lease a Mazda Speed3 is 5.9% for the same 36 months! I don't understand the different rates. The cost of borrowing for Mazda should be the same regardless of car. It doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, and they're running a promotion so that I could purchase the Mazda Speed3 for zero financing up to 60 months and only 1.9% for longer periods. At those rates I'd consider buying over leasing. 5.9% vs. 0%. I don't get it.

[GMichael]

What a rip off! I was just on the Mazda site running some prices. The interest rate to lease a Mazda 3 Sport is 4.4% for 36 months. The rate to lease a Mazda Speed3 is 5.9% for the same 36 months! I don't understand the different rates. The cost of borrowing for Mazda should be the same regardless of car. It doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, and they're running a promotion so that I could purchase the Mazda Speed3 for zero financing up to 60 months and only 1.9% for longer periods. At those rates I'd consider buying over leasing. 5.9% vs. 0%. I don't get it.

One car is selling out without the lower % rate, so they don't offer it.
They may be overstocked on the other so therefore the better rate.
Good old supply and demand.

[Groundbeef]

What a rip off! I was just on the Mazda site running some prices. The interest rate to lease a Mazda 3 Sport is 4.4% for 36 months. The rate to lease a Mazda Speed3 is 5.9% for the same 36 months! I don't understand the different rates. The cost of borrowing for Mazda should be the same regardless of car. It doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, and they're running a promotion so that I could purchase the Mazda Speed3 for zero financing up to 60 months and only 1.9% for longer periods. At those rates I'd consider buying over leasing. 5.9% vs. 0%. I don't get it.

Whats there not to get? Mazda is in the market to SELL cars, not lease them.

They discount sale prices, as then it is a SALE. When its paid for, it YOUR problem, not theirs. Don't have to worry about returns, cleaning, storing, re-selling, etc.

Leasing is just a way to get money out of your pocket for a car you probably can't afford anyway (not you personally). Plenty of folks "lease" because its "cheaper". In the short term. Its like renting an apartment though. After a year or so, its cheaper to have bought!

[Feanor]

Whats there not to get? Mazda is in the market to SELL cars, not lease them.

They discount sale prices, as then it is a SALE. When its paid for, it YOUR problem, not theirs. Don't have to worry about returns, cleaning, storing, re-selling, etc.

Leasing is just a way to get money out of your pocket for a car you probably can't afford anyway (not you personally). Plenty of folks "lease" because its "cheaper". In the short term. Its like renting an apartment though. After a year or so, its cheaper to have bought!

As I observed earlier in the thread, a low nominal lease rate doesn't mean too much in itself; the real interest can only be computed based on the corresponding cash price of the same vehicle. Of course, the cash price is after discounts and haggling, not usually the price on which the lease is computed using the lease rate.

I don't know about FA's instance, but it seems to me pretty common to offer a discount or a low lease rate. In general, as between to vehicles from the same maker and cash discount taken into account, the real lease rates are likely to be nearly identical.

[topspeed]

Leasing is just a way to get money out of your pocket for a car you probably can't afford anyway (not you personally). Plenty of folks "lease" because its "cheaper". Honestly, I don't see a problem with utilizing a method to get more car than you could afford through conventional financing. If somebody offered you a fixed 2% mortgage to buy a $600,000 house as opposed to a 6% on a $375,000 house, wouldn't you take it? It's the same payment after all.

Plus, you have to keep in mind that our tax laws currently allow substantial advantages to leasing if you fall into the right category.


In the short term. Its like renting an apartment though. After a year or so, its cheaper to have bought! Think so, huh? If you bought real estate in the last year, there's an excellent chance you are upside down now. If you bought a luxury car in the last year, there's an excellent chance the depreciation is far worse than either you or the bank forcast. In the softening luxury car market, closed end leases are your friend. Come March, I just turn the thing in and move on to my next car, regardless of market value. My bank is telling me to "make them an offer" because they know the residual value (calculated 3 years ago when money factors and the market were completely different) is roughly 20% higher than current market value. Truth be told, I'd consider it if it weren't for the reality of maintaining a M3 out of warranty, a thought invariably forces me into the fetal position.

0% financing is the great equalizer, however. If there is an opportunity to get 0% on a fairly desireable car, that it definitley worth considering.


Of course, the cash price is after discounts and haggling, not usually the price on which the lease is computed using the lease rate. There shouldn't be a difference. Never tell a dealer you are planning to lease until after you have negotiated the price, otherwise they will be focused on payments and not cap cost. Everything is negotiable, from cap cost to money factor to bank fees. Everything. It all depends on how hot the car is and how bad you want it.

[Woochifer]

Kinda joining in a bit late, but as far as the Mazdas go, my wife and I liked them enough to buy one. In advance of our baby's arrival, we bought a Mazda5 (we never considered leasing because both of us tend to keep our cars for a long time and we clock a lot of long distance driving).

The 5 is basically a Mazda3 with a taller minivan-style body. Among the cars we looked at, this was the perfect size configuration, and it offers quite a bit for a relatively low price. It's definitely a lot more sluggish than the 3, but it's more agile than a typical minivan or SUV and probably has the easiest step-in for a car I've ever tried (important consideration for when grandparents visit). We got one fully loaded with a leather interior, auto climate control, sunroof, Xenon headlights, upgraded audio, etc. for $22k out the door.

http://www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2008/Mazda/2008.mazda.mazda5.20166181-E.jpg


Overseas, these types of cars are known as space wagons, tall wagons, or MPVs. Very efficiently packaged with 3 rows of seats and an overall length generally shorter than a midsized sedan, without the excessive bulk, height, and weight of SUVs. As popular as this class of car has become overseas, they've never caught on in the U.S. The Kia Rondo is the only other car of this type being sold in North America. Perhaps with high gas prices and a sluggish economy, there's more of a market opening for these kinds of cars in the near future. Honda is purportedly planning to test the waters by bringing its hot selling MPV, the Stream, to North America in 2009. This also would have been ideal for what we were looking for, had it been available.

http://images.leftlanenews.com/content/august2007/stream-1.jpg

Car shopping did get frustrating at times, because we were looking for something that could accommodate a baby along with a dog tethered in the cargo area, yet we did not want a SUV for a variety of reasons. We would have considered going with a wagon if there had been more workable options in our price range. The so-called minivans were also a disappointment because the newer ones have gotten beyond huge, and the prices have also gone through the roof. The Mazda5 is actually about the same size as the original Dodge Caravan and the original Honda Odyssey, yet it's nearly 2 feet shorter and over 1,000 lbs. lighter than the current versions of those minivan models.

Personally, I liked how the Mazda3 drove, but my wife deemed the cargo area too small. The Chevy HHR was close to the size we needed, but my years of experience with GM rental cars soured me on Chevys. The VW Passat wagon also met our needs, but we thought that the Mazda5 was an all-around better value, so we went with that.

Among the Mazdas I've driven over the years, I always found that Mazdas are designed to reward drivers who like driving. They might not be the fastest cars off the line, but in a turn they are very rewarding. At the same time though, they do demand more attention from the driver because they are responsive and can get a bit twitchy at the extremes.

In contrast, Toyotas are as bland as they come, but that's by design. They're forgiving to a fault in a turn, smooth, efficient, reliable, practical, etc. A friend of mine who worked as an auto engineer told me that Toyota has the resources to be a world beater in almost all performance categories if they wanted to. But, instead they overengineer their cars for reliability, while finding the middle points for performance, and paying an inordinate amount of attention to how the ergonomic pieces fit together. Obviously, it has worked fine for them, even if auto enthusiasts find their cars staid and boring.

Hondas seem to be somewhere in the middle -- a bit more edginess dialed into the driving experience, but still forgiving enough for average drivers who'd rather pay attention to their various distractions than the road.

I've yet to drive a Ford Fusion (driven enough rental Tauruses to know I would never want to own one), but it seems like a step in the right direction that it shares a platform with the Mazda6, while the new Focus shares its platform with the 3. My last rental was a Mustang (albeit w/ the base V-6), and while it had its fun moments, it felt like a heavy car and not especially agile or responsive. I will say though that Ford dialed one of the sweetest sounding exhaust notes into that car! Lots of bark, but without the V-8, not a whole lot of bite.

[Feanor]

...
Never tell a dealer you are planning to lease until after you have negotiated the price, otherwise they will be focused on payments and not cap cost. Everything is negotiable, from cap cost to money factor to bank fees. Everything. It all depends on how hot the car is and how bad you want it.

Good advice, that :thumbsup: But you will most often hear that you get either the discount or the low lease rate, not both.

[ForeverAutumn]

Wooch, the Ford Fusion is on my list of cars to test drive. My Dad used to have a Taurus which I hated driving. And I once took a Contour out for test drive...took it around the block and returned it. Yuck. But the Fusion has been getting pretty good write-ups. I'll let you know how it feels.

So, currently on my list of cars to test drive are:
Ford Fusion
Mazda Speed3
Mazda 6
Mazda Tribute
Hyundai Santa Fe
Subaru Forester
Subaru Outback

[O'Shag]

There is only one...

[ForeverAutumn]

There is only one...

It's lovely. But I doubt that it will fit our golf bags and carts.

[O'Shag]

They'll fit. If it can fit machine guns, bazookas, and tied-up dead terrorists, it can certainly fit golf clubs.

If you dirve this down to the gawlf course, you'll be the bees knees, and you'll have something in common with the Queen. Did you know, when Liz gets tired of Phil's senile BS, she hops into the Aston, and goes for a spin to calm her nerves.

[topspeed]

Hey Wooch,

Mazda5's are fun cars! Nice buy there. :thumbsup: Not the quickest, but they handle better than any tall wagon has a right to.

FYI: The new Focus is built on the same platform as before, albeit stiffened and with more attention paid to NVH. The Euro Focus is built on the Mazda3/Volvo C30 platform and has rightfully garnered a ton of praise across the pond. Alas, the morons (aka beancounters) in Dearborn determined a US version of that platform would put the Focus well into the $20's and far beyond its core market. From what I've read, the car still handles very well, which isn't a complete surprise as the original was always considered one of the best handling in its class. The problem is the new body, which is nerdy at best. Those lucky Euros get far better Fords than we do. :(

[kexodusc]

The problem is the new body, which is nerdy at best. Those lucky Euros get far better Fords than we do. :(
Ain't that the truth.
When I was in Australia I thought the same thing - Ford had some cool vehicles down under - the Falcon sedan in particular was everywhere, but also some weird "son of El Camino" type cars that were pretty interetesting.
http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137384335622&pagename=FOA%2FDFYPage%2FDefault1024&c=DFYPage
Not for everyone, but nice to see a Ford other than a Mustang that didn't bore you to death.
Holden is the GM brand down there - don't know about quality but style wise they were the best GM's I'd seen in years!

Aside from the odd Ferrari or Maserati, Toyotas and Hondas ruled the streets there too though.

[Woochifer]

Hey Wooch,

Mazda5's are fun cars! Nice buy there. :thumbsup: Not the quickest, but they handle better than any tall wagon has a right to.

Thanks Speedy, I will say that the 5 is great for city driving. It takes a while to get to 65, but its maneuverability make it ideal for dodging urban double parkers, potholes, and pedestrians. Lot of fun driving that thing around the San Francisco hills. It's also one of the easiest cars to parallel park that I've ever driven.

As much as we like the 5, I kinda wish that there were more tall wagon choices available in North America. That Honda Stream purportedly sits on the same platform as the Civic and CR-V, yet has more interior and cargo space than an Accord. The CR-V met a lot of our needs, but I just don't like all that wasted vertical space, the flimsy bumpers, and high profile truck tires. Plus, it cost around $4k more than the 5 ... might as well buy a Passat wagon for that price.


FYI: The new Focus is built on the same platform as before, albeit stiffened and with more attention paid to NVH. The Euro Focus is built on the Mazda3/Volvo C30 platform and has rightfully garnered a ton of praise across the pond. Alas, the morons (aka beancounters) in Dearborn determined a US version of that platform would put the Focus well into the $20's and far beyond its core market. From what I've read, the car still handles very well, which isn't a complete surprise as the original was always considered one of the best handling in its class. The problem is the new body, which is nerdy at best. Those lucky Euros get far better Fords than we do. :(

That's too bad. I kept reading that the Euro Focus/3/C30 platform was on its way to the redesigned U.S. Focus, and looked forward to having that option available, especially if a SVT version came out to give the Mazdaspeed 3 a sibling rivalry.

Among the small cars I've rented, the previous Focus' agility always impressed me. It's not nearly as refined as the 3, but I could see why it had such a following with aftermarket tuners. The 3 gives the impression that it's a more expensive car than it actually is. If the 3 starts around $15k (even with the weak dollar), I'm astounded that Ford felt they would have to charge that much more if they built the new Focus around the same platform.

I did not like when Ford restyled the Focus a couple of years ago (so that they could make it look more like the already ugly Five Hundred?!), and it looks even dorkier now. I also don't like that Ford has eliminated the five-door and wagon versions.

Considering how Ford has now slid into third place, what would they lose by emulating their European unit, which has a long history of delivering successful, well designed, and very profitable cars? Or are they leaving their Eurostyle offerings to Mazda and Volvo, while trying to hold onto their shrinking traditional markets? The Fusion looks like a step in the right direction, and I'm sure I'll wind up driving one as a rental soon enough.

The U.S. auto market is quite odd (or at least the automakers' perception of the market is odd). I never understood the fixation on three-box body styles when hatchbacks are so much more practical and IMO easy on the eyes. The rest of the world seems fine with 5-door hatchbacks to go along with the sedan and coupe bodies. Also, it seems that the U.S. versions of many cars are longer and wider on the outside, while not necessarily providing that much more on the inside (e.g., the previous gen Honda Accord -- the trimmer and more attractive Acura TSX was actually sold as the Honda Accord overseas). And don't even get me started on SUVs ... talk about the antidote to car enthusiasm! :sleep:

[blackraven]

The problem with hatchbacks used to be that the rear hatch would rust out before the rest of the car. This has scared many people away. The old 1970's honda accord was a hatchback and sold well but the american hatchbacks like the dodge omni and chevy chevete were POS! Oh and remeber the POS chevy citation hatchback, what the hell were they thinking. I think hatchbacks are selling fairly well now. The new Subi STI is a hatch and should sell well.

Ford seems to be on the right track with the Fusion, but damn, its styling is boring. I just dont get car manufacturers, especially GM and Ford. I think they think the public will shy away from any hip new styling. At least chrysler has the balls for radical styling even if their cars for the most part IMO are made poorly (as are GM's).

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I'm torn between the Mercedes-Benz c300 4matic and Infiniti G35x AWD sedans myself.

I know the Infiniti is the superior vehicle in almost every measurable way, but the Benz is a Benz! Aargh!

PS: a BMW 335xi with similar options was nearly $9000 more than the G35x, so I'm not really considering that right now.

[ForeverAutumn]

I'm torn between the Mercedes-Benz c300 4matic and Infiniti G35x AWD sedans myself.

I know the Infiniti is the superior vehicle in almost every measurable way, but the Benz is a Benz! Aargh!

PS: a BMW 335xi with similar options was nearly $9000 more than the G35x, so I'm not really considering that right now.

Those are all out of my price range. :(

I took a Ford Fusion for a test drive on Saturday...actually I took two Ford Fusions out on Saturday, the 2.3L I4 and 3.0L V6. It totally lived up to all the great reviews that I've read. Even with only the 2.3L engine, it had spunk.

The interior of the SEL version is pretty upscale with the exception of the seats which I found to be a little too soft and wrapped in a fabric that will look worn pretty quickly. But a leather seat upgrade will take care of both of those issues. The car comes nicely loaded with lots of standard options (including a plug for my iPod :) and heated side mirrors which are a great feature for winter driving). The only thing that I would have to add is a Moonroof which is conveniently packaged with a stereo and speaker upgrade, including 6 months of free satelite radio, and the Sync system if I decide that I want it.

There was quite a big difference between the 2.3L and 3.0L engines. The 3.0L was much, much faster on take off (241hp vs. only 160) but was also a lot louder. Although the 3.0L was fun, the 2.3L would be find for the city driving that I mostly do. This isn't an overly heavy car so 160hp felt fine. And it'll reduce my gas consumption which is one my goals in getting away from SUVs. I don't see gas prices going anywhere but up.

I still need to take it out for a highway run, but right now it's the leader from both a pricing and feature standpoint. I just have to get used to the idea of being closer to the ground again.

[SlumpBuster]

Wooch, the Ford Fusion is on my list of cars to test drive. My Dad used to have a Taurus which I hated driving. And I once took a Contour out for test drive...took it around the block and returned it. Yuck. But the Fusion has been getting pretty good write-ups. I'll let you know how it feels.

So, currently on my list of cars to test drive are:
Ford Fusion
Mazda Speed3
Mazda 6
Mazda Tribute
Hyundai Santa Fe
Subaru Forester
Subaru Outback

I might me a little late to the party, but might I suggest the Saturn Astra ($16-$20k US) or Saturn Aura ($20k - $28k US). In full disclosure, I come from a GM family and the majority of my automotive clients are GM related, but still these are really nice cars. They are not like the crappy Saturns from 10 years ago. I actually have an Aura that I got over a Cadillac CTS. I was all ready to buy my first Caddy when I drove the Aura. I was ruined as I couldn't justify the cost increase of the CTS. The Aura had everything I wanted (except rear wheel drive) and more. All my friends goofed on me for getting a Saturn over a Caddy... except for my friends and family who are actually at GM. They all said "Good move."

Oh, and I remember the Hyundai Santa Fe getting really, really bad crash test results. But that was probably 4 years ago, so they may have improved.

[topspeed]

Glad to hear you liked the Fusion, FA. If you do get it, go for the Sync. It's pretty trick from what my friend tells me. He really enjoys it!

The Aura is an excellent, if more pricey, option. The Moroccan interior is very Euro (a good thing IMO). A loaded Aura will nearly touch $30k USD.

http://a332.g.akamai.net/f/332/936/12h/www.edmunds.com//pictures/VEHICLE/2007/Saturn/2007.saturn.aura.20091709-E.jpg

[ForeverAutumn]

The Aura is about the same price as the Fusion. Both retail for about $30K with the features that I want. However Ford is offering a $3650 rebate on Fusions until the end of March which will make a huge difference. If I go by MSRP a 36 month lease on a Fusion is the same price as a 48 month lease on an Aura.

Having said that, the Aura does look nice and I'll go take a look at it. Thanks.

[audio amateur]

I'm torn between the Mercedes-Benz c300 4matic and Infiniti G35x AWD sedans myself.

I know the Infiniti is the superior vehicle in almost every measurable way, but the Benz is a Benz! Aargh!

PS: a BMW 335xi with similar options was nearly $9000 more than the G35x, so I'm not really considering that right now.

Get a 330xi with the nice body kit;) gotta love it. It's got around 260 horses

[topspeed]

I know the Infiniti is the superior vehicle in almost every measurable way, but the Benz is a Benz! Aargh!

A Benz is no longer a Benz. Don't be fooled.

Back in the day (pre 1990), Mercedes was well known for over-engineering their cars. They were expensive then, as they are now, but at least you got what you paid for. In the early '90's (when Lexus was formed), Mercedes made two decisions that have led directly to their downfall:

1) Build to a price (instead of standard)
2) Stuff as much hi-tech gizmos in their vehicles as possible

The end result are cars that are raced to market with "bleeding-edge", unproven technology like COMAND and e-brakes (eloquently coined "crapulent luxury" by Jaime Kitman of Automobile Mag) that are no longer reliable, aren't built with top materials, weigh too much, and need a personal IT riding shotgun to keep the damn thing running. Germans are fantastic mechanical engineers. Computer engineers? Not so much...

Mercedes hasn't been ranked in JD Power's IQS Top 10 at any time this millenium. Indeed, only two years ago they were ranked in the 20's, well behind Lincoln, Mercury, Chevy, and all of the other American brands wrongfully perceived to be inferior.

The three pointed star simply isn't what it used to be, and yet they still want you to pay for it. Again, don't be fooled.

The G35x will run circles around both the C300 and the 230hp 330xi for thousands less. Don't believe me? I've owned multiple BMW's, yet I'm about to replace my E46 M3 'vert with a G37s. The performance is nearly equal to a twin turbo 335i, but at nearly $10K less, the price difference is simply too hard to ignore.

The auto industry moves fast. Reputations must be earned with every new car, not what you did 30 years ago.

[audio amateur]

The new 330i (E90) is 260hp:) the 335 has around 300hp and loads of torque
Speed, please don't sell your E46:(

[topspeed]

I stand corrected.

I think the discrepancy lies in the different models available across the pond vs. here in North America. The E90 330i, which indeed produced 260hp, was replaced with the 300hp twin turbo 335i two model years ago. The 328i, which uses the same 3.0L N52 as the 330i, has been detuned to 230hp as the entry level engine. Call Munich if you want to know why they just didn't call the thing a 330i.

As for the M3, as much as I enjoy it, taking care of a M car out of warranty is not for the faint of heart (or depth of wallet) and she hasn't exactly been a "low maintenance" kind of gal. I just replaced the tranny with only 30k on the clock, an $8,000 repair mercifully covered by a warranty with only 10k left on it. It's time to move on.

[audio amateur]

I stand corrected.

I think the discrepancy lies in the different models available across the pond vs. here in North America. The E90 330i, which indeed produced 260hp, was replaced with the 300hp twin turbo 335i two model years ago. The 328i, which uses the same 3.0L N52 as the 330i, has been detuned to 230hp as the entry level engine. Call Munich if you want to know why they just didn't call the thing a 330i.

As for the M3, as much as I enjoy it, taking care of a M car out of warranty is not for the faint of heart (or depth of wallet) and she hasn't exactly been a "low maintenance" kind of gal. I just replaced the tranny with only 30k on the clock, an $8,000 repair mercifully covered by a warranty with only 10k left on it. It's time to move on.
You seem well informed on the subject. What I don't gather though is why they call the twin turbo a 335 when it remains a 3.0L.
The M3 is simply my dream car, that's why i'm saying this, obviously whatever choice you make will be well informed and a fine buy, I have no doubt. I have to say it does suck to hear that it has had these problems.

Here's a vid for you, which, if anything, may change your mind:) (I know you won't like the music). Needless to say I've watched it several times:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pockYpND0Y

Both M3's, especially starting 3:49 are deadly... The G35 has a nice body kit to it. Enjoy!
ps: what was the 8 grand repair on?

[topspeed]

:lol: You were right about the music! I'm a rocker.

While I appreciate the video, I have to tell you I despise ricers and hate street racing with a vengence. If some morons want to whip it out to see whose is bigger, do it on a track where they don't endanger innocents on the roadways. Blasting in and out of traffic on a public road is the height of stupidity. Did you notice how the G35 braked suddenly and the M3 almost ran up its backside on the freeway? There's a pileup waiting to happen :rolleyes:.

If you really want to see what an M3 can do, here's a video with a soundtrack provided by my favorite band: Straight Cut Gears. Turn up your speakers.

http://s35.photobucket.com/albums/d161/355spider/?action=view&current=m3_gtr_nurburgring.flv

Edit: After re-reading my post, it may come off as directed towards you, which it most certainly is not. No offense was intended. BTW, the 8 grand was to replace the entire transmission; gearset, casing, etc. I lost third gear downshifting from 6th before a freeway onramp right before Christmas. Nothing quite like coasting through a huge onramp unable to grab a gear...any gear...all the while 18 wheelers are barreling down on you! FunFunFun!~

[Rich-n-Texas]

:lol: You were right about the music! I'm a rocker.
What? You listen to music in your rocking chair? Man, I thought Melvin was old. :rolleyes:


While I appreciate the video, I have to tell you I despise ricers and hate street racing with a vengence. If some morons want to whip it out to see whose is bigger, do it on a track where they don't endanger innocents on the roadways. Blasting in and out of traffic on a public road is the height of stupidity. Did you notice how the G35 braked suddenly and the M3 almost ran up its backside on the freeway? There's a pileup waiting to happen :rolleyes:.
I've never street raced; took it to the track on Friday nights, but IMO the reason I got three speeding tickets in Plano in two years was because of the youngsters (using that term loosely) who would race their camaros and T/A's that their Mommy's and Daddy's gave them on the streets, which then led the PD to put their radar guns on any F-body that came through town.

I was at the mall over the weekend and there was a G37 parking inside. I was never a rice fanboy either but I gotta tell ya, all that elegance and styling wrapped around 330 hp sure is sweet. If I had Speedy's money that car would be waaaay up there on the to-do list.

[ForeverAutumn]

I've never street raced; took it to the track on Friday nights, but IMO the reason I got three speeding tickets in Plano in two years was because of the youngsters (using that term loosely) who would race their camaros and T/A's that their Mommy's and Daddy's gave them on the streets, which then led the PD to put their radar guns on any F-body that came through town.

What kind of lame-ass rationalization is that?! The reason you got three speeding tickets in two years is because you were driving too fast.

[audio amateur]

:lol: You were right about the music! I'm a rocker.

While I appreciate the video, I have to tell you I despise ricers and hate street racing with a vengence. If some morons want to whip it out to see whose is bigger, do it on a track where they don't endanger innocents on the roadways. Blasting in and out of traffic on a public road is the height of stupidity. Did you notice how the G35 braked suddenly and the M3 almost ran up its backside on the freeway? There's a pileup waiting to happen :rolleyes:
I totally get your point, but apart from that sudden breaking, I felt they were relatively civilised, considering what they were doing. If it was mostly a one off thing, IMO it wasn't too badly done. I'm pretty sure it was mostly for the show off of the vid, than wanting to know who is who. But rest assured I don't like that stuff in general. Simply this vid had it all:)

If you really want to see what an M3 can do, here's a video with a soundtrack provided by my favorite band: Straight Cut Gears. Turn up your speakers.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!!! I was waiting to hear the music, and then I looked at the band name a second time, and realise what you were talking about!:cornut: haha the funny thing is, i'm actually not a fan of that straight-cut transmission whine, I MUCH prefer the street M3's raaaasp, as you already know:D:D I've alrady seen that vid actually, great stuff the GTR, except for the whine I find it covers the V8's beautiful symphony.

Edit: After re-reading my post, it may come off as directed towards you, which it most certainly is not. No offense was intended.
No worries at all.

BTW, the 8 grand was to replace the entire transmission; gearset, casing, etc. I lost third gear downshifting from 6th before a freeway onramp right before Christmas. Nothing quite like coasting through a huge onramp unable to grab a gear...any gear...all the while 18 wheelers are barreling down on you! FunFunFun!~
Sounds horrible. I bet you were pretty darn happy to have it covered. But how did you manage that? Down-shift way too early? (I'd imagine it had some kind of over-rev limit), or were you stuck in a certain gear & stalled? Hmm.. well if you had a manual, you wouldn't have had those problems:D

[Rich-n-Texas]

What kind of lame-ass rationalization is that?! The reason you got three speeding tickets in two years is because you were driving too fast.
Number one, it's easy to blame kids; number two, Plano cops are jerks; number three, the sun was in my eyes; number four, there was a hole in my glove; number five... "I never do anything wrong!" :cornut:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Ummm... AA, he has a manual. When he says "grab a gear, any gear", he doesn't mean grab one that fell outta his tranny and onto the ground behind him.

He He snicker snicker.

[audio amateur]

Ummm... AA, he has a manual. When he says "grab a gear, any gear", he doesn't mean grab one that fell outta his tranny and onto the ground behind him.

He He snicker snicker.
It's a semi-automatic transmission, not manual:)

[topspeed]

But how did you manage that? Down-shift way too early? (I'd imagine it had some kind of over-rev limit), or were you stuck in a certain gear & stalled? I approched the onramp at maybe 70mph, flicked the left paddle three times for a triple downshift to 3rd and got nothing but a flashing "3" on the shift indicator and zero motive force. It engaged the clutch but didn't shift to 5th, didn't shift to 4th, didn't do a damn thing but leave me hanging. When it finally engaged at the top of the ramp, I was in 2nd gear at maybe 6000rpm. I tried to upshift to 3rd but it skipped right into 4th and about 2500rpm. From that point forward, 3rd gear was but a memory. For all I knew, Rich was right and it's somewhere on the side of that onramp!


Hmm.. well if you had a manual, you wouldn't have had those problems Indeed. This is the last paddle shifter I will ever own.


Number one, it's easy to blame kids; number two, Plano cops are jerks; number three, the sun was in my eyes; number four, there was a hole in my glove; number five... "I never do anything wrong!" :lol: :lol: Valentine One is your friend, Rich. Find it. Buy it. Love it.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Speedy, I could buy a speaker for the price of wonna those things. I was always happy with my Passport detectors, until they broke. And I know what you're going to say... I know the whole Valentine vs passport deal, so save the strain on your finger muscles okay? :smilewinkgrin:

[ForeverAutumn]

Well, after much debating, test driving and researching I ended up ordering another Escape today. As much as I liked some of the other vehicles that I test drove, in particular the Sante Fe and the Forester, in the end Ford was once again the best value for the money. I was struggling between the Fusion and another Escape. Hubby and I went and test drove both vehicles again today. Once I got into the Escape, it just felt right. The Fusion is a beautiful car...but I love my Escape and I realized today that I'm not ready to give it up.

My lease isn't up until May so I'm early enough to custom order the exact features that I want. My favourite feature? The audiophile stereo system of course. :)

[kexodusc]

My lease isn't up until May so I'm early enough to custom order the exact features that I want. My favourite feature? The audiophile stereo system of course. :)

Cool...we're looking at getting something similar. Never thought I'd be in a SUV or truck, but this Canadian winter makes driving in a japanese designed car pretty impractical.
Honda's don't handle so well in 4 feet of snow...who knew?

What is it about the Escape you like? Price is pretty nice.

[ForeverAutumn]

The most important feature about the Escape is that I trust it. I have driven it in all kinds of weather conditions. Snow, ice, slush, a rainstorm that was so black you couldn't see the tail lights of the car in front of you, and a flash flood where I was cruising through three feet of water and veering around stalled cars to get home. It never, never let me down. Now some of those weather conditions are unusual and I'm not likely to experience them again (the storm and the flood) but if I do, I won't be worried.

Some of the other features that I like are:

Drive. The Escape is big, but not so big that it feels like a truck. It still drives like a car with a very smooth suspension. The turning radius could be a little tighter, but otherwise it's a nice drive. I have the V6 engine. I find that the Escape is too heavy for the 4 cylinder engine. My current Escape is also 4WD. Since I’m no longer a travelling saleswoman and won’t be doing the same kind of Northern driving that I used to, I just ordered FWD on the new one.

The seats. I have a bad back and I find the seats of the Escape very firm and very comfortable even on long drives. I have a brother who is 6’4” and is comfortable sitting in the back seat of my car.

Access to the back storage compartment. You can access the 'trunk' through the back liftgate, the back window or the back seat by popping open the fold down seat and tossing stuff into the back through the opening that creates. A handy feature which I often use when I'm backed into a parking spot and don't have room to lift the back liftgate.

Aesthetics. I like the way the Escape looks. I’m not a big fan of the new body but the interior is very nice with good quality cloth on the seats that won’t look worn after a few years.

And, of course, price. Because I’m leasing, I would have to lease the Sante Fe or Forester for four years to get the same monthly payment that I have with Ford for three years.

My only complaint on the Escape is that I couldn't get heated side mirrors without also getting leather seats. The Fusion came with heated mirrors even with the cloth seats.

I know a lot of people aren't fans of Ford vehicles, but this will be my fifth Ford, and my husband drives a 2001 Ford Ranger. We have never had any problems with our cars.

[thekid]

Well I'm a little late to the thread but FWIW leasng is generally a bad deal depending on your driving habits and tax/business situation. However if you like to get in and out of cars on a regular basis and have intention of owning a car beyond 3 years it can make sense. No offense to Ford people if you are in love with Fords then a lease makes sense because they generally don't "age" well versus a lot of the foreign competition. I say this as a person involved in the automotive/insurance industry who has dealt with thousands of different make/models over the years. I have had the opportunity to drive on several occasions both the Mazda 3 and the Fusion and was impressed with their handling and power trains.

On a somewhat related note as someone originally from Michigan I would dearly love to see the domestic manufacturers come back to their past glory. Unfortunately I think management is all too often short sighted and driven by the price of their stock rather than a desire to design and build great cars again.

[topspeed]

Congrats on your new Escape, FA! :thumbsup: The Escape is the best cute/ute in my mind because it is so honest. It doesn't try to be a sports car, it doesn't pretend to be a luxury sedan. It's a sport ute and does exactly what it's supposed to...and does it very well indeed.


On a somewhat related note as someone originally from Michigan I would dearly love to see the domestic manufacturers come back to their past glory. Unfortunately I think management is all too often short sighted and driven by the price of their stock rather than a desire to design and build great cars again. The renaissance is happening right now. :) Under "Ultimate Car Guy" Bob Lutz, GM has brought us the Malibu, 'Vette, Tahoe Hybrid, CTS, and G8 GT to name but a few. All are world class cars. I drove a Fusion all last week while at a business conference and was mightily impressed with not only the quality, but also the driving dynamics of that car (Sync was pretty damn cool, too). The Mustang is the best selling "sports car" in the US and the new F150 should easily fend off the challenge from the cooly received Tundra. Chrysler is the one I'm worried about and it is becoming more and more likely Cerberus will do what they've done with many of their other holdings: chop and drop.

GM has figured out it's all about the product. Ford is getting there (check out the new Verve). Chrysler is clueless.

[topspeed]

How do you guys feel about cars going green? Chrysler is currently under construction with a certified green dealership in Florida.
It's more marketing than innovation at this point. I have no problem with making cars more friendly to the environment (Tesla anyone?), but at this point even "hybrids" aren't very green when you consider the cost involved with making the batteries, shipping them to assembly plants, the disposition of the said batteries, etc. That process will leave a bigger carbon footprint than any Corrolla or Focus.

Unfortunately, many people buy hybrids just so they can wear their conscious on their sleeves like their favorite Hollywood hypocrit...er, actor; "Look at me! I'm going to save the Earth one gallon at a time, just like George Clooney! Same color, too!" Whereas a chrome "V12" on the decklid used to impart instant status, today you need a little green leaf and the magical "hybrid" scrawled across the flank.

[Woochifer]

The renaissance is happening right now. :) Under "Ultimate Car Guy" Bob Lutz, GM has brought us the Malibu, 'Vette, Tahoe Hybrid, CTS, and G8 GT to name but a few. All are world class cars.

Amazing how quickly GM has turned things around. It took them a long time to get their product quality anywhere close to industry averages, and some of their individual plants (most notably their Buick and Cadillac plants and the NUMMI facility they jointly operate with Toyota) now rank among the world's best. Problem is that they might have cut down the failure rates, but the driving experience with most of their cars was still pretty bad. Seems that they've gotten around to now putting the driver first, and that bodes well for their fortunes.


Chrysler is the one I'm worried about and it is becoming more and more likely Cerberus will do what they've done with many of their other holdings: chop and drop.

GM has figured out it's all about the product. Ford is getting there (check out the new Verve). Chrysler is clueless.

Chrysler just announced a two-week companywide shut down over the summer. I guess this is more extensive than the normal summer plant retooling shut downs in preparation for the next model year. Things aren't looking good for them.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080313/bs_nm/chrysler_shutdown_dc

They're even permanently shutting down their San Diego design center, where some of the company's best designs over the past 20+ years came from. That seems to signify that Chrysler does not want to regain its competitive edge anytime soon. The importance of the California market at setting trends for the auto industry as a whole is the reason why so many auto makers opened design centers in Cali. For years, it gave Toyota (which opened their Calty design studio in Newport Beach in the mid-70s) an ear to the ground that other automakers did not have.

Wasn't too long ago with the buzz from the PT Cruiser and the 300 that Chrysler was the best positioned U.S. carmaker. I guess it only takes one model cycle for things to go south in a hurry -- case in point, Volkswagen. Or for things to turn around for the better -- case in point, Mazda.


It's more marketing than innovation at this point. I have no problem with making cars more friendly to the environment (Tesla anyone?), but at this point even "hybrids" aren't very green when you consider the cost involved with making the batteries, shipping them to assembly plants, the disposition of the said batteries, etc. That process will leave a bigger carbon footprint than any Corrolla or Focus.

I would agree with you in regard to the manufacturing process, there are a lot of processes that people don't consider in assessing the impact of a hybrid. But, once that car gets out into a consumer's hands, then the carbon footprint is likely much smaller than a typical car over the entire life of the vehicle.


Unfortunately, many people buy hybrids just so they can wear their conscious on their sleeves like their favorite Hollywood hypocrit...er, actor; "Look at me! I'm going to save the Earth one gallon at a time, just like George Clooney! Same color, too!" Whereas a chrome "V12" on the decklid used to impart instant status, today you need a little green leaf and the magical "hybrid" scrawled across the flank.

I wouldn't go that far. My retired parents are ready to buy a Prius because they're pennypinchers and want that 40+ MPG. It would be a huge stretch to call them environmentalists -- I have a hard enough time just getting them to dump their aluminum cans into the recycling bin rather than the trash -- but they are certainly cheap! They currently drive a Camry, and were looking to get another one. But, with gas heading towards $4 a gallon, and my mom's retiree friends telling her how much they love their Prius, that's where they're headed. They could care less if that Prius has got the carbon footprint of a Gulfstream jet -- if it cuts their gas costs in half, they want it.

Among people I know in the Bay Area (and down in L.A. as well), the hybrid's real status symbol's not the green leaf logo, but rather that DMV sticker that lets them drive in the carpool lane! :cool:

[Woochifer]

How do you guys feel about cars going green? Chrysler is currently under construction with a certified green dealership in Florida.

I would guess that a certified green dealer has more to do with their business operations than the cars they sell. Some counties have green certification programs for businesses. It basically involves having programs in place to reduce waste, lower energy usage, use recycled/renewable building materials, use more renewables, etc. Nothing wrong with a business that wants to commit to green certification. But you do need to look further at what's getting certified, since I doubt that dealership will refuse a customer that wants a Chrysler 300 with a gas guzzling 6.1L SRT Hemi!

[topspeed]

I wouldn't go that far. My retired parents are ready to buy a Prius because they're pennypinchers and want that 40+ MPG. It would be a huge stretch to call them environmentalists -- I have a hard enough time just getting them to dump their aluminum cans into the recycling bin rather than the trash -- but they are certainly cheap! They currently drive a Camry, and were looking to get another one. But, with gas heading towards $4 a gallon, and my mom's retiree friends telling her how much they love their Prius, that's where they're headed. They could care less if that Prius has got the carbon footprint of a Gulfstream jet -- if it cuts their gas costs in half, they want it. Naturally, there are people that buy hybrids for their efficiency. My cousin has a Prius and he's far from a prima dona. Heck, he works for the Board of Education and is as conservative as they come. A while back, SouthPark did a skit about hybrid drivers and while it was extreme as only they can do it, the show wasn't far off the mark. Your parents are normal. My cousin is normal. Far too many hybrid drivers are into it for the status. Truth.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for making more efficient cars even though my car is the anti-Prius (Prius sacrifices everything for efficiency, M3 sacrifices everything for performance). Take the Tesla I mentioned: Pure plug-in electric, 0-60 in 4.4s, 250 miles per charge. I'd buy that in a heartbeat if it didn't cost $90k. Honda has the first fuel cell powered vehicles on the planet in circulation in LA right now. $600/mo to lease a real car that releases nothing more than water vapor at the tailpipe. Of course, there are only 2 refueling stations in the entire Southland, but it's still a step in the right direction. Slowly but surely, we're getting there.

BTW, before the parental units skip on down to Toyota, they may want to stop by Volkswagen. The '09 Jetta TDI is projected at 45-50mpg and puts out...get this...140hp and 235 lb ft of torque! That, my good friend, is serious off-the-line oomph and it'll be priced the same as the gasoline Jetta. Clean diesels are going to give hybrids a run for their money. Watch.


Among people I know in the Bay Area (and down in L.A. as well), the hybrid's real status symbol's not the green leaf logo, but rather that DMV sticker that lets them drive in the carpool lane! You're serious? They let hybrid's go solo in the carpool lane?!? If the hybrid's advantage is better efficiency with less detriment to the environment, shouldn't they make hybrids carry a full load instead of allowing solo's?

That's the DMV for ya!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Congrats on your new Escape, FA! :thumbsup: The Escape is the best cute/ute in my mind because it is so honest. It doesn't try to be a sports car, it doesn't pretend to be a luxury sedan. It's a sport ute and does exactly what it's supposed to...and does it very well indeed.
Oh brother. :rolleyes: Like it's the family pet?

The Infinty FX isn't a pretender either. It's sleek, luxurious and HAULS AZZ!!!

Oh and... you can put your utilities in it too.

:D

[Woochifer]

Naturally, there are people that buy hybrids for their efficiency. My cousin has a Prius and he's far from a prima dona. Heck, he works for the Board of Education and is as conservative as they come. A while back, SouthPark did a skit about hybrid drivers and while it was extreme as only they can do it, the show wasn't far off the mark. Your parents are normal. My cousin is normal. Far too many hybrid drivers are into it for the status. Truth.

Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% for making more efficient cars even though my car is the anti-Prius (Prius sacrifices everything for efficiency, M3 sacrifices everything for performance). Take the Tesla I mentioned: Pure plug-in electric, 0-60 in 4.4s, 250 miles per charge. I'd buy that in a heartbeat if it didn't cost $90k. Honda has the first fuel cell powered vehicles on the planet in circulation in LA right now. $600/mo to lease a real car that releases nothing more than water vapor at the tailpipe. Of course, there are only 2 refueling stations in the entire Southland, but it's still a step in the right direction. Slowly but surely, we're getting there.

Definitely a lot of exciting stuff on the horizon. I remember taking an urban futurism course and even 20 years ago we were taking about the trade-offs involved in going hydrogen (i.e., yes, it will solve the air pollution problem, but with cheap non-polluting energy, it just means bigger cars, more traffic, and more sprawl -- solving one problem potentially exacerbates another).

Rumor was that Honda would go with a tricked out hybrid engine on the successor to the NSX -- basically, world beating performance while still getting 25 MPG. As much potential as hybrids have with performance, the market is clearly on the efficiency side. The Accord Hybrid was tuned for performance, while Toyota tuned the Camry Hybrid for fuel economy. The Accord sold poorly, while Toyota has done well with the Camry. More often than not, Toyota reads the market trends correctly in the U.S. market, and I think a big part of that is their huge corporate presence in California, where many of their cars are actually designed.

Supposedly, the Tesla's very sought after in Silicon Valley. On paper, that thing looks absolutely sick. I haven't seen any of them, but it seems to fit the Valley aesthetic quite well (particularly given that a lot of the start-up money for these electric car and plug-in hybrid conversion ventures comes from Silicon Valley) and several Bay Area transit stations provide electrical outlets in prime parking spots for electric cars.


BTW, before the parental units skip on down to Toyota, they may want to stop by Volkswagen. The '09 Jetta TDI is projected at 45-50mpg and puts out...get this...140hp and 235 lb ft of torque! That, my good friend, is serious off-the-line oomph and it'll be priced the same as the gasoline Jetta. Clean diesels are going to give hybrids a run for their money. Watch.

Diesels are definitely an area where I never expected any innovation after those smoke spewing snails from the 80s exited the U.S. market, yet here we are.

My parents have consistently kept one Toyota in the garage since the mid-80s, and it's the Toyota they're looking to replace this time. Their "other" car over the years has gone from Buick to BMW to Mazda to Mercedes to the current VW New Beetle. The VW has had electrical system issues, so I doubt that they'd look to getting another VW. They like how German cars drive, but they're more iffy on the reliability.

Plus, my mom knows a lot of people who swear by their Prius. It's hard to argue with the almost cult-like devotion that Prius owners have to their cars. Lately, I've been seeing a lot of VW diesels including some with "biodiesel" bumper stickers, so there is a revival of sorts on that front. I just can't think of any gas stations around my neighborhood that serve up any flavor of diesel!


You're serious? They let hybrid's go solo in the carpool lane?!? If the hybrid's advantage is better efficiency with less detriment to the environment, shouldn't they make hybrids carry a full load instead of allowing solo's?

That's the DMV for ya!

The carpool stickers were part of that whole package of incentives to get people into hybrids in the first place. I think that the DMV has now handed them all out. Next time you see a Prius, look at side bumper and you'll likely see one of those DMV carpool lane stickers. The tax credits are another incentive -- I think that Toyota has already used up all of its allocated tax credits and Honda's credits are phasing out this year. GM and Ford apparently still have available tax credits of up to $3k, depending on which hybrid model you go with.

When my wife and I decided on that Mazda5, we were considering all of these tax credit and carpool incentives. In the end, the hybrids available were either too big, too SUV-like, or too small, while the Mazda5 met our needs and carried the lowest price out of all the hybrid and non-hybrid alternatives we looked at. Fuel economy averages between 24 and 28 MPG -- not bad for a six-seater.

[topspeed]

Oh brother. :rolleyes: Like it's the family pet?

The Infinty FX isn't a pretender either. It's sleek, luxurious and HAULS AZZ!!!

Oh and... you can put your utilities in it too.

:D
The FX is a complete pretender. I love the shape and agree it's a rocket (with a sweet exhaust note to boot) but you can't carry jack squat. My dog won't even fit thanks to that steeply raked rear window. Plus, for a 4,400lb SUV, a tow rating of 3,500lbs is pathetic.

Big on Sport, ridiculously shy on Utility.

[GMichael]

The FX is a complete pretender. I love the shape and agree it's a rocket (with a sweet exhaust note to boot) but you can't carry jack squat. My dog won't even fit thanks to that steeply raked rear window. Plus, for a 4,400lb SUV, a tow rating of 3,500lbs is pathetic.

Big on Sport, ridiculously shy on Utility.

True, but a lot of people are just looking for a glorified hatchback. Something to carry groceries, garden supplies, etc in while still showing that they have enough expendable cash to burn it off indiscriminately.

[Woochifer]

True, but a lot of people are just looking for a glorified hatchback. Something to carry groceries, garden supplies, etc in while still showing that they have enough expendable cash to burn it off indiscriminately.

What I'm wondering is what happened to all the non-glorified hatchbacks! My wife and I would have been perfectly happy with a wagon version of just about any mid-sized sedan (considered the Mazda6 wagon, but none of the dealers in the entire Bay Area had one), but the options were few and mostly out of our price range. Everything's now all about trying to emulate a SUV, which cuts into the interior space, reduces the handling agility (because of the high center of gravity and high profile truck tires), bumps up the weight, and eliminates any semblance of bumper protection.

[GMichael]

What I'm wondering is what happened to all the non-glorified hatchbacks! My wife and I would have been perfectly happy with a wagon version of just about any mid-sized sedan (considered the Mazda6 wagon, but none of the dealers in the entire Bay Area had one), but the options were few and mostly out of our price range. Everything's now all about trying to emulate a SUV, which cuts into the interior space, reduces the handling agility (because of the high center of gravity and high profile truck tires), bumps up the weight, and eliminates any semblance of bumper protection.

We have been looking at the Mazda 3, 5 door, CX-7 and the Toyota's Matrix & Rav 4.

[Rich-n-Texas]

The FX is a complete pretender. I love the shape and agree it's a rocket (with a sweet exhaust note to boot) but you can't carry jack squat. My dog won't even fit thanks to that steeply raked rear window. Plus, for a 4,400lb SUV, a tow rating of 3,500lbs is pathetic.

Big on Sport, ridiculously shy on Utility.
Utilities can be any number of things Speedy. It'll hold a hand drill or a Skil saw, a dust pan and wisk broom, a Yamaha receiver and an old Pioneer TT, 6 month old twins... see what I'm saying? All depends on what qualifies as a "utility" :biggrin5:

And besides, I'd rather haul a$$ than some beat up old car trailer with a broken down Bimmer chained down to it. :smilewinkgrin:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Shake this milk!
What milk? I don't get it. :out:

[ForeverAutumn]

We have been looking at the Mazda 3, 5 door, CX-7 and the Toyota's Matrix & Rav 4.

Hey GM, FWIW I have two friends who own Mazda 3's and both of them love their cars.

[dean_martin]

hmmm...I think I'm in the wrong decade. For the past 6 mos. or so I've been obsessed with American muscle cars.

Anybody know where I can find an '03 or '04 Mercury Marauder?

[GMichael]

Hey GM, FWIW I have two friends who own Mazda 3's and both of them love their cars.

I bought a Mazda MX3-GS back in 92. Sold it in 99 with 196K miles on it. Still ran like the day I picked it up. Never had a lick of trouble with it. Can't complain about that.

[Rich-n-Texas]

hmmm...I think I'm in the wrong decade. For the past 6 mos. or so I've been obsessed with American muscle cars.

Anybody know where I can find an '03 or '04 Mercury Marauder?
How 'bout a 2000 Firebird Formula @ 320 HP? True dual exhaust, 3K stall T/Q, 3.73 rear gears? 75K miles?

[topspeed]

hmmm...I think I'm in the wrong decade. For the past 6 mos. or so I've been obsessed with American muscle cars.
500 hp '08 Shelby GT500
420 hp '08 Dodge Challenger SRT
400 hp '09 Chevy Camaro

I dunno Dean, appears to me you're in exactly the right decade!


Anybody know where I can find an '03 or '04 Mercury Marauder?
I'm a Ford guy, but even I will admit the Marauder was a weak swipe at the Impala SS. If you want used 4 door muscle, gotta go with the car with the Corvette motor under the hood. How 'bout a Buick GNX from the '80's? :ihih:

[Rich-n-Texas]

My car has a corvette motor under the hood!!! Knuckleheads!

[GMichael]

My car has a corvette motor under the hood!!! Knuckleheads!

But does it have 4 doors?

[topspeed]

Rich is counting the hatch and the hood as "doors," Mike. Don't mind him, he's been hitting the Shiner a bit hard these days.

[GMichael]

He's been spending too much time with Pix, me thinks.:frown2:

[dean_martin]

500 hp '08 Shelby GT500
420 hp '08 Dodge Challenger SRT
400 hp '09 Chevy Camaro

I dunno Dean, appears to me you're in exactly the right decade!

I was just feelin' a little uncomfortable with all the "green" talk is all, and it's not very fun at the pump these days.

yeah, those vehicles have piqued my obsession. I'm holding out for the white "Vanishing Point" edition Challenger that should come out around 2010 for the 40th anniversary of the movie.



I'm a Ford guy, but even I will admit the Marauder was a weak swipe at the Impala SS. If you want used 4 door muscle, gotta go with the car with the Corvette motor under the hood. How 'bout a Buick GNX from the '80's? :ihih:

I'll have to dig a little deeper into the Marauder. I remember seeing a new one on the lot back when we were looking at "family" vehicles and thinking "what is that beast?"

[Rich-n-Texas]

Rich is counting the hatch and the hood as "doors," Mike. Don't mind him, he's been hitting the Shiner a bit hard these days.
Shiner = armadillo pi$$!!! (Don't tell JSE I said that.) I drink Milagro 100% pure De Agave tequilla exclusively!