Restoring 78 capable tables

[squeegy200]

I'm currently working on two Dual turntables that need slight refurbishment.

From a mechanical perspective --they seem to be intact and operational. However neither is currently outfitted with cartridge so the full functionality cannot yet be determined.

I noticed these are capable of playing 33, 45, and 78rpm discs.

So I need suggestions on cartridge possibilities.

I've seen mono cartridges available for 78s, and stereo cartridges for 33/45. Is there a cartridge that is decent on all three speeds?


Any input would be appreciated.

[emaidel]

The stylus in a cartridge for 33 rpm stereo LP's will work just fine with mono LP's and 45's, but not 78's. No cartridge will handle all three speeds because the groove width on a 78 is considerably larger than that of either 45's or 33's, and the stylus for 33's will just fall to the bottom of the groove and sound horrible. Many cartridges offer an optional 78 stylus, and that's the route you'll have to take.

Check out The Needle Doctor - there's lots to choose from there.

Just curious: why are you even interested in 78's in the first place?

[royphil345]

You can buy a 78 stylus for any of the Ortofon OM series carts, a Stanton 681 EEE (or any other Stanton cart), or for the Shure M97xE...

[squeegy200]

The stylus in a cartridge for 33 rpm stereo LP's will work just fine with mono LP's and 45's, but not 78's. No cartridge will handle all three speeds because the groove width on a 78 is considerably larger than that of either 45's or 33's, and the stylus for 33's will just fall to the bottom of the groove and sound horrible. Many cartridges offer an optional 78 stylus, and that's the route you'll have to take.

Check out The Needle Doctor - there's lots to choose from there.

Just curious: why are you even interested in 78's in the first place?

In recent months, two friends have approached me with extensive 78 collections from estates of relatives. They asked if I had capability of playing the format and if I could archive to another format so they could listen to the collection. At the time I did not have anything. Then, this past summer, I was given the opportunity to own an operational Bogen tubed Integrated Amplifier designed for 78 playback. Then this past week I was given two Dual turntables, both of which are capable of playing the 78 rpm discs.

It seems the opportunity has presented itself.

[squeegy200]

You can buy a 78 stylus for any of the Ortofon OM series carts, a Stanton 681 EEE (or any other Stanton cart), or for the Shure M97xE...


I noticed the tonearms have two pairs of wires and standard cartridge mounts. I know the Stanton 681 and the Ortofon will have four connectors for stereo playback.

So I assume back in the day, one would swap stylii to listen to 78 rpms? Then switch back to a stereo stylus when one desired to play 45s or 33 lps?

Question: When one listens to 78s in Mono, does it matter which channel is connected? I ask because the Bogen amplifier is single channel only.

[emaidel]

So I assume back in the day, one would swap stylii to listen to 78 rpms? Then switch back to a stereo stylus when one desired to play 45s or 33 lps?

That is correct.

Question: When one listens to 78s in Mono, does it matter which channel is connected? I ask because the Bogen amplifier is single channel only.

No, it doesn't.

[royphil345]

If you go with a stereo cart, you might want to experiment with which channel you connect. Sometimes one groove wall will have less wear and noise than the other.

Might serve you to set one of your tables up with a mono 78 cart. A true mono cart wouldn't pick up any vertical information and would give you slightly quieter playback.

[squeegy200]

My greatest appreciation to everyone sharing their knowledge and experience.

I am going to take your advice and explore mono 78 cartridges.

I've really no need for 45/33 compatibility with this setup.

[Slippers On]

Hi squeegy,

It is possible to get a cartridge which will accommodate both needles at once. I am working from memory but if you try the cartridge websites you will see "flip-over" needles which suggest which cartridges are designed to accommodat them.

I have a couple of old Garrard record players, (unfortunately they are packed away), which have this capability. ..... ahhhh, I remembered I have a little box of old cartridges to refer to....just a moment.............

Ok Squeegy, I found the following......

GP91-3sc - cartridge
AstAtic model 15 - cartridge
ST8 - flip over needle
N43-7s - flip over needle
40A SF - flip over needle.

These are just a selection of cartridges and needles which I have that accommodated the "flip-over" system.

Look on ebay.Co.UK and you will find lots to choose from.

Incase I haven't explained the "flip-over" system it is a T shaped piece of plastic which fits into a special cartridge, (designed to accommodate it), with a needle for LP on one side and 78 on the other. You just "flip-over" the T bar to suit your record.

Good Hunting


Slippers On

[Slippers On]

Try this guy for example

http://cgi.ebay.com/PHONOGRAPH-NEEDLE-BSR-ST-8-ST-9-SX1H-SX2H-SX1M-SX5M_W0QQitemZ350010785203QQihZ022QQcategoryZ38027 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

[royphil345]

Those cartridges with the flip needles are ceramic cartridges. The don't require a phono preamp, but the fidelity can't compare to what you can get out of a magnetic cartridge. They also require at least 3 grams of tracking force... some of them more than that...

For playing 78s and replacing needles cheaply it could be a way to go. For playing LPs, I'd want better sound and a lower tracking force.

I restored a portable tube stereo awhile back that had one of those Garrard changers with a ceramic cartridge. After very lightly sanding the haze off of the idler wheel, lubing a few things and replacing the flip needle, the old Garrard changer ran like new and sounded better than I expected. Those changers were popular on some fairly expensive and decent sounding tubed console stereos. I ended up selling mine because after getting it working the thrill was gone, I had nowhere to put it and I was worried about what I was doing to my records with the drop spindle and all that tracking force.

[Woochifer]

The Ortofon OM series is pretty easy to switch between 78s and LPs. Just know that ALL of the OM series cartridges from the Super OM10 to the OM40 use the same cartridge body (I believe that the cartridge bodies for the models below the Super OM10 are different but still compatible). Upgrading from the OM10 to the OM20 or 30 is as simple as changing the stylus, and playing 78s also entails just swapping out to the 78 stylus for that series. Compared to other MM carts, the Ortofon seems easier to swap out the stylus because the cantilever is not exposed.

[musicoverall]

If you go with a stereo cart, you might want to experiment with which channel you connect. Sometimes one groove wall will have less wear and noise than the other.

Might serve you to set one of your tables up with a mono 78 cart. A true mono cart wouldn't pick up any vertical information and would give you slightly quieter playback.

And I'd have to add, after going through several different makes, that the Grado 78 mono cartridge is the best I've heard. I own a few thousand 78's and the cartridge can make a huge difference. People laugh at 78's because they aren't flat 20 hz to 20Khz but the all important midrange on a 78 can be startling in its realism. The Ortofon 78 carts subdue that realism a bit and the Shure subdues it quite a lot, IMHO. The Ortofon is fine for the casual 78 listener, however, and a lot of people probably don't want to invest too much in the format. Hard to argue with that!

[squeegy200]

That's great info.
I was just about to buy a cartridge this weekend.

I have enjoyed the 2ch wood cartridges from Grado and have been happy with their products. So ill try the 78 version.

[musicoverall]

That's great info.
I was just about to buy a cartridge this weekend.

I have enjoyed the 2ch wood cartridges from Grado and have been happy with their products. So ill try the 78 version.

You'll be very pleased, I think. Yes, I like the Grado wood cartridges for LP's as well, but their 78 cart is head and shoulders about the competition. They make at least 2 and either one is better than the competitions best, IMHO.

[NoTransistors]

I might as well make my 1st post now.
Some of you know me from AudioKarma.
Seventy-eights have an equalization curve. It is absolutely different from the standard RIAA curve assigned to the 'modern' L.P..
My Fisher amp offers the 'Columbia'-type curve for playing these things, but be aware that there were many e.q. curves being used when the '78' was offered.

Why do I mention the E.Q. curve? Because it will make or break the sound.

The oldest 78s [acoustically-recorded], have no curve at all.
When set up properly, a system for 78s can sound quite decent. I have a collection of green-label Columbias from the early 50's that sound almost like vinyl.

Seth

[squeegy200]

I might as well make my 1st post now.
Some of you know me from AudioKarma.
Seventy-eights have an equalization curve. It is absolutely different from the standard RIAA curve assigned to the 'modern' L.P..
My Fisher amp offers the 'Columbia'-type curve for playing these things, but be aware that there were many e.q. curves being used when the '78' was offered.

Why do I mention the E.Q. curve? Because it will make or break the sound.

The oldest 78s [acoustically-recorded], have no curve at all.
When set up properly, a system for 78s can sound quite decent. I have a collection of green-label Columbias from the early 50's that sound almost like vinyl.

Seth

Seth, I am glad that you mentioned that.


A friend of mine at one time professionally archived 78s and used Bogen equipment for the playback. He gave me a Bogen Model DB130 to restore and to use in my own 78 rpm playback system.

It is a tubed Integrated Amp with a front-end specifically designed for optimum 78 playback.

It has the 78 curves for
EU-78
US-78
AES
RIAA
Columbia-LP
NAB
POP

All switchable from the front panel.

I am not familiar with all the different curves but I will sure experiment. Thanks for the tip.

-Les

[musicoverall]

Nice!

I've been thinking hard about a similar investment. I have a number of 78's mfg'd in Australia and I'm curious which curve they used.

Have fun experimenting.


Seth, I am glad that you mentioned that.


A friend of mine at one time professionally archived 78s and used Bogen equipment for the playback. He gave me a Bogen Model DB130 to restore and to use in my own 78 rpm playback system.

It is a tubed Integrated Amp with a front-end specifically designed for optimum 78 playback.

It has the 78 curves for
EU-78
US-78
AES
RIAA
Columbia-LP
NAB
POP

All switchable from the front panel.

I am not familiar with all the different curves but I will sure experiment. Thanks for the tip.

-Les