Receiver auditioning hints, tips and tricks

[Rich-n-Texas]

Here are the three finalists:

Yamaha RX-V1800
Denon AVR-2808
Pioneer VSX-91TXHI decided that the all-in-one approach would best suit me mainly because I've only owned receivers, and for me the complication factor is greatly minimalized this way. Call me a mainstream conservative but purchasing separates and/or the more exotic brands are outside of my comfort zone.

The first question I guess would be the final purchase decision. If I end up buying from say, Crutchfield, can I rest assured that if they're a factory authorized dealer that the warranty return/repair process will be handled directly by them and thus making it easier on me, as opposed to buying through Amazon or one of their third party dealers, where I may not necessarily be buying through authorized channels? I don't want to buy from the big box stores because the sales tax is 8.25% here in Colin County.

As far as the auditioning process, what advice can you give me pertaining to what I do when I walk into the Home Theater store? I realize that the chances of being able to listen to the three I'm pondering may be slim, but what I need to know is what do I ask the rep to do for the setup? For example, should I listen to them in Pure Direct mode with no added processing first so I can get a good feel for the amp section's sound reproduction characteristics and then add in decoders and such next?

Speakers: I know I won't be able to listen through Martix 804's, so which ones would compare most closely? I vaguely remember seeing a lot of Klipsch's at the local Best Buy store so if that's what I'm stuck with, which of their models might come close to matching up with mine?

The video processing section, while important isn't really a major concern for me because anything over and above what I have now is just icing on the cake. Truthfully I don't know why anybody would need four HDMI in's anyway, but that's just me. Sound quality from CD's, DVD-A's and (maybe) SACD's is paramount in my decision making process. Two channel audio is what I grew up with, so that has a place in my brain, but surround processing is more important.

So in conclusion, I'd really appreciate some guidance from anyone (and I know there are many here) who have spent time in the audition chambers at the local boutiques. Thanks!


Post Script: If you think this is a good topic, that's fine but please keep your green chicklets to yourself okay?

[basite]

get that remote with you! If it's hard to work with (I.e. lots of menus leading to other submenus, leading to even other sub menus, hidden somewhere), that's a big minor for me.
so check for functionality, also check the amount of options, it can be pretty basic, but be sure all the essential things are there and are easy to access, it needn't be overloaded with options, but they are kinda welcome though...
and sound, of course, your new receiver needs balls, otherwise it will hate your B&W's, so it's good to have the extra power reserve. If it sounds stressed somehow, it's a sign of not being able to handle the low impedences...

and the sound is pretty much subjective, I'd say you'd compare them, and pick what you like the most...

can't say much now, because I'm kinda trying out new cables, and so far I'm pretty impressed, so I gotta go :p


Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Rich-n-Texas]

get that remote with you! If it's hard to work with (I.e. lots of menus leading to other submenus, leading to even other sub menus, hidden somewhere), that's a big minor for me.
Good thinking Bert.

so check for functionality, also check the amount of options, it can be pretty basic, but be sure all the essential things are there and are easy to access, it needn't be overloaded with options, but they are kinda welcome though...
I'll be happy that I'm getting a receiver with OSD. None of the three are short on options; it'll probably take me a year to learn and utilize them all.

and sound, of course, your new receiver needs balls, otherwise it will hate your B&W's, so it's good to have the extra power reserve. If it sounds stressed somehow, it's a sign of not being able to handle the low impedences...
From a high current standpoint, the 1800 fits the bill quite well with 130 watts per channel delivery, and it IS the front runner.


and the sound is pretty much subjective, I'd say you'd compare them, and pick what you like the most...
This is what I'm trying to get advice on. I know that picking a winner is subjective from a sound quality perspective, but I'd like to use a scentific approach that would include something like a checklist so I can be thorough before I decide.


can't say much now, because I'm kinda trying out new cables, and so far I'm pretty impressed, so I gotta go :p


Keep them spinning,
Bert.
Sounds like fun!

[GMichael]

Hey Tex,

I'm sure that you'll be happy with any of these. Happy testing.

I don't know about the others, but the 1800 will let you save 6 different set-ups. I have two that I use most of the time on my 2500. One for TV and movies and one for music.

Good luck.

[L.J.]

Truthfully I don't know why anybody would need four HDMI in's anyway, but that's just me.

I'm using all 3 of mine. PS3, HD-A2 & 2910.

If you can, you should audition at home. I know it's a pain, but spending time with each unit at home is the only true way to determine which one is best for you. Crutchfield has an excellent 30 day return policy. You should be able to pick up all 3 at Magnolia/BB though. Come on, stop being lazy :cornut:

BTW, you can always pick up a separate amp later on.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'm using all 3 of mine. PS3, HD-A2 & 2910.

If you can, you should audition at home. I know it's a pain, but spending time with each unit at home is the only true way to determine which one is best for you. Crutchfield has an excellent 30 day return policy. You should be able to pick up all 3 at Magnolia/BB though. Come on, stop being lazy :cornut:

BTW, you can always pick up a separate amp later on.
:biggrin5:

I was able to learn a few things about the 1800 on Crutchfield's website from the "Hands-on Research" tab, and I've read here that they also have great tech support in addition to the return policy. Nobody seems to be moving off the current price tag right now but I'd consider purchasing from them by February as long as they're in line with others.

Is the example I gave above the right idea when auditioning, even if I do so at home? Keep in mind that my room desparately needs acoustic treatments before I can really appreciate whatever I bring home.

I know I can buy a separate amp later on but I'm all about instant gratification. I'll give each one a fair shake though.

[L.J.]

:biggrin5:

I was able to learn a few things about the 1800 on Crutchfield's website from the "Hands-on Research" tab, and I've read here that they also have great tech support in addition to the return policy. Nobody seems to be moving off the current price tag right now but I'd consider purchasing from them by February as long as they're in line with others.

Is the example I gave above the right idea when auditioning, even if I do so at home? Keep in mind that my room desparately needs acoustic treatments before I can really appreciate whatever I bring home.

I know I can buy a separate amp later on but I'm all about instant gratification. I'll give each one a fair shake though.

I went through several units and tried to spend a good amount of time with each one. This gives you plenty of time to listen to a variety of sources and get a "feel" for each one.

[musicman1999]

I would do your audition at home, and i would buy from a B&M store.Have you narrowed it down to these three for sure? Did we talk about Rotel, far better match audio wise.You will often see B&W speakers matched with Rotel, even in both companies adds.If those 3 my choice would be Denon followed by Pioneer.

bill

[musicman1999]

Rich

I checked a couple of reviews on those receivers, the 1800 when all channels are driven will barely output 55 watts per, you should defiantly not consider it high current.The way to tell if it is high current is it will output twice the power into 4 ohms as it will into 8 ohms or very close to it.


bill

[Rich-n-Texas]

Hi Bill,

One requirement is that the receiver needs to be able to decode the new lossless formats, because eventually I'll be piping either Blu-ray or HD-DVD into it. GM warned me about pre-pro's not having this ability so that's another reason why I'm shying away from them.

I guess I just don't understand spec's well enough yet, but I assumed that 130 watts per channel meant 130 watts all channels driven? It shows 130 watts x3 for the front channels and 130 for the surrounds when the receiver is in surround mode. RMS power is 130 watts continuous in stereo mode. Total power is 910 watts. The Denon shows 110 x7. What am I missing?

[musicman1999]

Well the problem with power ratings is that there are no legal guidelines on how they are stated so most of them stretch the truth.The review that i read on the Yamaha rxv-1800 was on the Sound and Vision magazine website.They tested the power output and there results were that with 2 channels running it came very close to 130 watts, running in 5.1 mode it dropped down to about 100 watts and in 7.1 it fell all the way to 55 watts.It is a good idea to read the lab test results when you read a review for this kind of info.I checked for the other two but could not find them, the Denon 2307 was on there and it did give better results but it does not mean the 2808 would as well.Most of the mass market producers do this to various extents, not just Yamaha.Harman Kardon is a noticeable exception as they rate there receivers conservatively so a 55 WPC HK will sound stronger and play louder than a 100 WPC
mass market receiver.The Harmon's have a strong amp section, the mass markets do not.Others that are known for it are Rotel and Cambridge Audio.I have a CA receiver that i use as a power amp and it works great, i feed it my Anthem pre-pro.If you are getting a bluray i would get one that decodes internally and outputs the signal rather than decode in the receiver, it will open up your choices a lot.

bill

[pixelthis]

Good for you, considering your knowledge base a receiver is probably best.
Dont know why you picked these three, but its your money.
When auditioning choose speakers with soft dome tweeters like your beemers
(the klipsch use titanium)
Anything 100w or higher will be okay, HT audio isnt as demanding as high end sound,
and there isnt much difference in amps in the cookie cutter receivers put out these days.
A lot think the yammy is "harsh", I PREFER the word "detailed".
Of your three, Yamaha has the best amps, but a guy was on this forum recently complaining about problems, and I had problems with mine.
My first high end receiver was a top of the line Denon, 2 channel, 595$ in 1985, about 1800 in todays dollars, had another one late nities, both rolled off the highs, I think they do this to sound "smoother".
Pioneer? MORE PLASTIC than Pamela Anderson. Nuff said.
Wanna be buying receivers every year or two?
Then worry about video switching and the "formats" it decodes.
Your source should decode the newer formats, all you need is DD 5.1 (7.1 maybe)
Dolby proII, AND dts and dts neo.
My receiver has this great componet switching , HD compatible, which is about useless
now, after three years, but the amps are still great.
MORE important , make sure the D/A converters are 192k, that way any cheap CD player will sound great, a usb plug would be great, but dont expect it.
When listening, turn to an input with NOTHING plugged into it, turn the vollume up ALL the way, hear anything? AT ALL?
If you do, dont buy that receiver. And a phono stage would be nice if you ever get nostalgic.
But I like a phono stage for a more important reason, it means that the designers are looking out for sound quality. Phono stage, CD direct mode, a "pure " mode that turns off the front display, and a beefy power supply, these are all important, because if they care about audio quality then HT quality will take care of itself.
Let the TV do the video switching, let the receiver do the amp work, let the source do the decoding.
And Yamaha had a high end integrared type unit, had everything except a FM/AM radio,
which you DONT need.
But mostly, get off of your duff and BUY something already, okay? You shop like a woman.
It didnt take this long to elect a friggin POPE:1:

[pixelthis]

Hi Bill,

One requirement is that the receiver needs to be able to decode the new lossless formats, because eventually I'll be piping either Blu-ray or HD-DVD into it. GM warned me about pre-pro's not having this ability so that's another reason why I'm shying away from them.

I guess I just don't understand spec's well enough yet, but I assumed that 130 watts per channel meant 130 watts all channels driven? It shows 130 watts x3 for the front channels and 130 for the surrounds when the receiver is in surround mode. RMS power is 130 watts continuous in stereo mode. Total power is 910 watts. The Denon shows 110 x7. What am I missing?

I am adressing this question seperatly.
130 wpc means 130 wpc, all channels driven, in two channel mode the output will be slightly higher.
think its a modern miracle that a crapload of amps can put out such high power ?
Well, no.
Even those vertical coffins of yours wont be drawing that much juice, maybe 50w under stress.
Truth is, there is enormous competition these days, so they fudge the specs a tad, and we let them so we can brag.
BUT if you turn up seven 130w amps all the way several magical things will happen.
Your speakers will blow, eventually , and after awhile (about five minutes) so will the amps, if they dont melt like your eardrums will be doing.
So while theoretically these amps can put this out, they dont mean to actually try it.
Your main worry is having enough REAL power (current) because if your speakers dont have enough power they will go into clipping, which will damage them more than overpowering them.
But dont worry, just about any decent receiver will drive your speakers, look at that one lung wonder you're using now.
The main thing is getting the quality speakers like yours deserve.
So I am begging , really begging, look into some rotel, B&K, Integra (yay!) or even Onkyo.
Please. PLEASE:hand:

[basite]

When auditioning choose speakers with soft dome tweeters like your beemers
(the klipsch use titanium)



I have never seen a B&W with soft dome tweeters...

all is aluminium and diamond...
and you can't just audition an amp using different speakers and expect the same result. B&W uses aluminium/diamond tweeters, so does Thiel, but that doesn't make them the same speaker with the same sound. Definately not.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Rich-n-Texas]

According to the manual for the 804's, the "high frequencies are handled by a time aligned, metal-domed tweeter."

This is a good discussion but please, let's not turn it into an argument okay?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Well the problem with power ratings is that there are no legal guidelines on how they are stated so most of them stretch the truth.The review that i read on the Yamaha rxv-1800 was on the Sound and Vision magazine website.They tested the power output and there results were that with 2 channels running it came very close to 130 watts, running in 5.1 mode it dropped down to about 100 watts and in 7.1 it fell all the way to 55 watts.It is a good idea to read the lab test results when you read a review for this kind of info.
Actually Bill, now that you mention it, I'm subscribed to S & V, and I did look at the review of the 1800. That 55 watt number you gave me sounded familiar, but I had forgotten where I read it. Here is S&V's comments about it's power output...

Power exceeded its specs by a good margin and bettered 100 watts all around, even with 5 channels driven. The unit's power supply appeared to run out of current when 2 more were added, however, since 7-channel results dropped by nearly 3 dB, to 55 watts — a non-issue in the real world.
The last sentence seems like it wasn't completed, but in any event I probably won't be trying to drive anymore speakers for the foreseeable future.

I checked for the other two but could not find them, the Denon 2307 was on there and it did give better results but it does not mean the 2808 would as well.Most of the mass market producers do this to various extents, not just Yamaha.
I agree that there is no standards body governing manufacturers, and not all test using the same end equipment. I guess you just have to compare one against the other and draw your own conclusions.


Harman Kardon is a noticeable exception as they rate there receivers conservatively so a 55 WPC HK will sound stronger and play louder than a 100 WPC
mass market receiver.The Harmon's have a strong amp section, the mass markets do not.Others that are known for it are Rotel and Cambridge Audio.I have a CA receiver that i use as a power amp and it works great, i feed it my Anthem pre-pro.If you are getting a bluray i would get one that decodes internally and outputs the signal rather than decode in the receiver, it will open up your choices a lot.

bill
Okay, I'll look at more Rotels and H/K's. The problem there is that it's hard to find listening rooms neaby that carry this high-end equipment. The Home Theater Store may; I'll get in touch with them, but I know I won't find any Rotel at Frys or BB.

Edit: There was no separate and detailed test bench results listed on the S&V website for the 1800.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I am adressing this question seperatly.
130 wpc means 130 wpc, all channels driven, in two channel mode the output will be slightly higher.
think its a modern miracle that a crapload of amps can put out such high power ?
Well, no.
Even those vertical coffins of yours wont be drawing that much juice, maybe 50w under stress.
Truth is, there is enormous competition these days, so they fudge the specs a tad, and we let them so we can brag.
BUT if you turn up seven 130w amps all the way several magical things will happen.
Your speakers will blow, eventually , and after awhile (about five minutes) so will the amps, if they dont melt like your eardrums will be doing.
So while theoretically these amps can put this out, they dont mean to actually try it.
Your main worry is having enough REAL power (current) because if your speakers dont have enough power they will go into clipping, which will damage them more than overpowering them.
But dont worry, just about any decent receiver will drive your speakers, look at that one lung wonder you're using now.
The main thing is getting the quality speakers like yours deserve.
So I am begging , really begging, look into some rotel, B&K, Integra (yay!) or even Onkyo.
Please. PLEASE:hand:
:lol: I gotta hand it to ya Pix, you've got a way with words, and you wear your emotions on your sleeve!

Like I said in another thread, soundstage is very important, music is 50/50 with movies workload, and at lower volume I still want a strong presence across the entire audible frequency range.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'd have to say right now that I'm liking what I read @ Audioholics about the Integra DTR-7.8 receiver. It does everything the other three do and then some (for $100 more). THX Ultra2 cert., Audyssey speaker calibration (a must for my dumba$$) and ethernet & RS232 hardware. If the ethernet and RS232 ports allow me to connect to a computer and print frequency response graphs and such, that would be a big plus. I know these access features are intended for the pro installer and I'd probably have to pay for the s/w, but if I could post them here, maybe then Wooch and Kex would participate in my threads again.:incazzato:


The Integra DTR-7.8 features independent block construction for the preamplifier and amplifier sections for improved low-noise performance. Each of the seven amplifier modules rated at 130 Watts per channel into 8 ohms (20Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% THD) and incorporates a newly developed push-pull amplifier configuration and discrete power output devices. Integra's exclusive WRAT (Wide Range Amplifier Technology) and a high current power supply capable of delivering 60 amps of instantaneous current for transient response round out the fundamental performance of the receiver, which is capable of dynamic and linear response from 5 Hz all the way to 100 kHz.
I would suspect that qualifies it for the "high-current amp" rating, no?

[basite]

I'd have to say right now that I'm liking what I read @ Audioholics about the Integra DTR-7.8 receiver. It does everything the other three do and then some (for $100 more). THX Ultra2 cert., Audyssey speaker calibration (a must for my dumba$$) and ethernet & RS232 hardware. If the ethernet and RS232 ports allow me to connect to a computer and print frequency response graphs and such, that would be a big plus. I know these access features are intended for the pro installer and I'd probably have to pay for the s/w, but if I could post them here, maybe then Wooch and Kex would participate in my threads again.:incazzato:


I would suspect that qualifies it for the "high-current amp" rating, no?


looks really good for a HT receiver...

I'd definately add that to the audition list :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[GMichael]

The 1800 should get you all the latest and greatest soundstages. (true HD or otherwise) If you are listening to 2 channel music, you will get about 125 watts of true power. When you put on a movie, do you really listen to it that loud? Only the front 3 speakers are getting a full load anyhow. The rest are just giving you background sounds now and then. And as LJ has said, the amp section can be easily bypassed with an external amp for more power if you need it. If you get a Rotel, then you'll have better built in amps, and better sound for music, but no HD (lossless) sound stages. Getting that is a little harder than adding an external amp. It's up to you to decide what fits your needs and budget. An argument can be made for either side.

[GMichael]

looks really good for a HT receiver...

I'd definately add that to the audition list :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Ditto, also worth listening to.

[L.J.]

Rich if you look at the 7.8, make sure you can get a return policy. I was gonna audition that unit but could only get it through special order and wouldn't have been able to return it. Last I heard, this unit had the same popping issues as the Onkyo's. Not trying to scare you, just saying make sure you can get a return policy.

Also, you don't have to worry about decoding being done by the AVR unless you want DTSMA. The decoding can be done by the player(TrueHD, DD+, MC PCM) and sent via HDMI or 5.1/7.1 analog. You would loose DTSMA though, since no player is able to decode it yet. Just throwing that out there.

[Rich-n-Texas]

The 1800 should get you all the latest and greatest soundstages. (true HD or otherwise)
That's right. Pix mentioned letting the DVD player do the sound decoding but what am I losing in regards to processing power by going that route? I think receiver manufacturers put higher quality components and tech into the D/A, A/D converters.

If you are listening to 2 channel music, you will get about 125 watts of true power. When you put on a movie, do you really listen to it that loud?
I sat down in front of my system yesterday and played CD's in Direct mode and 2 channel stereo and I was sadly disappointed. In Direct, I felt like the speakers were in another room. All I got was mid-range and very poor imaging. And no, when I watch a movie I don't turn it up too loud because the LFE output is quite good. The problem though with surround sound movies still lies with poor imaging.

Only the front 3 speakers are getting a full load anyhow. The rest are just giving you background sounds now and then. And as LJ has said, the amp section can be easily bypassed with an external amp for more power if you need it.
I agree GM. I can buy a separate 2 channel amp down the road, but what's the cost in the event I want more power for four channels?

If you get a Rotel, then you'll have better built in amps, and better sound for music, but no HD (lossless) sound stages. Getting that is a little harder than adding an external amp.
Because I'm not the type to upgade equipment every three years, future-proofing to me is very important. I get that with the latest A/V receivers.

It's up to you to decide what fits your needs and budget. An argument can be made for either side.
NO! It's up to you guys to decide what's best for me. That's why I'm here! It's your job to extol the virtues of Yamaha receivers, AVS123 speakers :rolleyes: and provide the women at the parties. It's Bert's job to correct Pix when he runs afowl(sp?) of the facts, as well as decipher specs, and it's L.J's job to audition my receiver choices as he has the testbed setup in his home, which means he can plug the unit in and all connections are made instantaneously. It's also his job to fix my remote whenever I get pi$$ed off at it! And it's Bill's job to continuosly present the arguments for Rotel, as my friends would cream their jeans if they knew I had one.

Did I leave anybody out?

[GMichael]

Did I leave anybody out?

We could send JSE over to tuck you in at night.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Rich if you look at the 7.8, make sure you can get a return policy. I was gonna audition that unit but could only get it through special order and wouldn't have been able to return it.
I'll look into that L.J. when I get in touch with local dealers. That doesn't sound good on it's surface.

Last I heard, this unit had the same popping issues as the Onkyo's. Not trying to scare you, just saying make sure you can get a return policy.
Makes me wonder how many chunks of Onkyo parts are in the Intergra receivers. I realize that Integra is "the Lexus" of Onkyo.


Also, you don't have to worry about decoding being done by the AVR unless you want DTSMA. The decoding can be done by the player(TrueHD, DD+, MC PCM) and sent via HDMI or 5.1/7.1 analog. You would loose DTSMA though, since no player is able to decode it yet. Just throwing that out there.
Same quality DAC's as in the receivers? The Integra incorporates three TI DSP's. Did you know that Pix? :ihih:

[Rich-n-Texas]

We could send JSE over to tuck you in at night.
No thanks. He'd probably bring that monkey pi$$ Shinner Bock beer with him. :vomit:

[Mr Peabody]

LJ, did you mean to say the decoded HD audio signal from BR would be passed via HDMI? If so, do you have any links, I'd be interested to see how that works, sincerely. The new HD formats and HDMI is one of the most confusing messes.

Also, this is the first I've heard of any popping issues with Onkyo. Where does this come from? I wonder if it's true or just one of those rumors that gets passed around. A friend of mine bought a 605 and driving Paradigm he hasn't mentioned anything like that. Onkyo/Integra is the closest you will get to a high current amp in the mass market brands. The 605 was wildly popular and Crutchfield is actually sold out of many Onkyo models. Crutchfield is an excellent place to buy. I have only had a couple warranty returns. The times I did they sent me new product with a return label for the problem unit.

Rich the NAD T175 preamp does most everything the receivers you are looking at will do. That paired with the Master series power amp would get those B&W's off the ground and give you imaging. If it's a good sound stage you want and your heart is set on a receiver then you should check out Rotel. For the record nothing Best Buy or any of the big box stores carry will compare, remotely, to your B&W. That NAD Master Series amp weighs 98 lbs. and is a beast.

No, I'm not volunteering to tuck anyone in!

[Rich-n-Texas]

LJ, did you mean to say the decoded HD audio signal from BR would be passed via HDMI? If so, do you have any links, I'd be interested to see how that works, sincerely. The new HD formats and HDMI is one of the most confusing messes.
LOL. Yeah, just ask the guys at Blue Jeans Cable what they think of the HDMI unstandard standard!
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/hdmi-cables.htm?hdmidept


Also, this is the first I've heard of any popping issues with Onkyo. Where does this come from? I wonder if it's true or just one of those rumors that gets passed around. A friend of mine bought a 605 and driving Paradigm he hasn't mentioned anything like that. Onkyo/Integra is the closest you will get to a high current amp in the mass market brands. The 605 was wildly popular and Crutchfield is actually sold out of many Onkyo models. Crutchfield is an excellent place to buy. I have only had a couple warranty returns. The times I did they sent me new product with a return label for the problem unit.
L.J. auditioned an 805 at home and experience popping during HDMI handshaking with his ???


Rich the NAD T175 preamp does most everything the receivers you are looking at will do. That paired with the Master series power amp would get those B&W's off the ground and give you imaging. If it's a good sound stage you want and your heart is set on a receiver then you should check out Rotel. For the record nothing Best Buy or any of the big box stores carry will compare, remotely, to your B&W. That NAD Master Series amp weighs 98 lbs. and is a beast.
The NAD T175 is nice, and if you're referring to the Master Series M25 7 channel amp, yes it's a hundred pound beast. It would probably cause a LOT of stress on my u-build-it audio cabinet. The closet NAD dealer is 17 miles and they're an installation firm. Not likely I'd be able to get competitive pricing. Any idea what those two components would run? Audiogon's got a used T175 for $3500. Can't do that! :nonod:

Oh yeah... more TI DSP's too!

[Mr Peabody]

That has to be a misprint, www.spearitsound.com will sell you a T175 new in the box for under $1,800.00, msrp is only $1,999.00. The M25 is the one, the same place has a refurb for $2,299.00. I bought my CJ gear from here, they are good guys.

[GMichael]

That has to be a misprint, www.spearitsound.com will sell you a T175 new in the box for under $1,800.00, msrp is only $1,999.00. The M25 is the one, the same place has a refurb for $2,299.00. I bought my CJ gear from here, they are good guys.

Does that NAD have Dolby TRUE HD and DTS HD Master Audio?

I didn't see them on their list.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I mentioned my maximum $2K budget in the Critique my Layout thread I started but I should've mentioned it here as well. I'm moving my TV & audio equipment to another wall and I'm in the process of ordering installation hardware and acoustic treatments as well.

[Rich-n-Texas]

No it doesn't GM. Not as far as I could tell.

[GMichael]

Bummer.

I'm sure that next year's models will. I'd so love to go with separates, but unless you spend a bundle, you never seem to get the latest and greatest.

Maybe someday.

[Mr Peabody]

http://nadelectronics.com/products/home-theatre-amplifiers/T175-Surround-Sound-Preamplifier

It doesn't mention any "HD" processing but there are a couple I wonder what they are, like DTS 24/96, what's the difference between that and regulare DTS, would the 24/96 be for HD? But it does have the 7.1 analog input which is the best and safest way of being sure you are receiving the intended format from the movie. Anyway don't base your purchase on the HD audio stuff via HDMI that doesn't look like it's completely ironed out and I'd hate to see you base a purchase on that to only find it's a useless feature. You all really need to do your research and especially read what the Dolby website says about the HD audio formats and HDMI. I bet there's a lot of people out there using HDMI with BR or HD who think they are getting this great HD sound and they are only getting the core DD or DTS. And, they bought HT gear with the buzz word 1.3 compliant or a list of HD audio which it will decode. Is it dishonest? Well, the receiver may decode it but will it ever see it to decode, that is the question. HDMI has done more to rape the consumer and confuse the issues than anything I have ever seen in my entire time in this hobby.

[pixelthis]

:ihih: :1:
I'll look into that L.J. when I get in touch with local dealers. That doesn't sound good on it's surface.

Makes me wonder how many chunks of Onkyo parts are in the Intergra receivers. I realize that Integra is "the Lexus" of Onkyo.


Same quality DAC's as in the receivers? The Integra incorporates three TI DSP's. Did you know that Pix? :ihih:

Havent kept up much. But everybody screws up every once in awhile:ihih:
Reason I extoll the virtues of Integra is three years of troublefree, audiophile quality sound
in my 7.4 (which has 192kh dacs, and its three years old!)
And it decodes MP3, wma, PCM and wave over a cat cable (nettune they called it)
And it has an exelent phono stage.
AND a lot of onkyo is in Integra, I just like the styling better, its more expertly done,
its beer off of the top of the vat.
And aluminum tweeters are considered "soft dome", they are certainly softer than titanium.
Anyway I have just about decided to go ahead with the original plan, and get into seperates by using the Integra as a pre pro for some really good amps.
Integra is one of the few receivers that are really good enough to be seriously considered for pre-pro status.
The most fun of getting new gear is shopping, comparing specs, etc, but I sat down
in my friends audio store and listened to the Integra and I was sold, didnt look at anything else, not even a Marantz that I had listened to previously.
It was "love" at first sight, its just really a refined product, feature laden with none of the crap you dont need:1:

[basite]

And aluminum tweeters are considered "soft dome"


uh
no...

and according to your statement, titaniums are soft domes too, because both beryllium and diamond are harder.

aluminium = metal = hard material.
felt = textile = soft material

got it? :D

[GMichael]

http://nadelectronics.com/products/home-theatre-amplifiers/T175-Surround-Sound-Preamplifier

It doesn't mention any "HD" processing but there are a couple I wonder what they are, like DTS 24/96, what's the difference between that and regulare DTS, would the 24/96 be for HD? But it does have the 7.1 analog input which is the best and safest way of being sure you are receiving the intended format from the movie. Anyway don't base your purchase on the HD audio stuff via HDMI that doesn't look like it's completely ironed out and I'd hate to see you base a purchase on that to only find it's a useless feature. You all really need to do your research and especially read what the Dolby website says about the HD audio formats and HDMI. I bet there's a lot of people out there using HDMI with BR or HD who think they are getting this great HD sound and they are only getting the core DD or DTS. And, they bought HT gear with the buzz word 1.3 compliant or a list of HD audio which it will decode. Is it dishonest? Well, the receiver may decode it but will it ever see it to decode, that is the question. HDMI has done more to rape the consumer and confuse the issues than anything I have ever seen in my entire time in this hobby.

My PS3 will only output the true Dolby etc formats via HDMI. If I had a BR player with 7.1 analog outputs I could plug it into the receiver I have now and flip it to straight mode. And yeah, that would be better.

[L.J.]

LJ, did you mean to say the decoded HD audio signal from BR would be passed via HDMI? If so, do you have any links, I'd be interested to see how that works, sincerely. The new HD formats and HDMI is one of the most confusing messes.

Yeah, HDMI is able to carry 8 channels of uncompressed PCM. My PS3 & HD-A2 do not have mc analog out. HDMI is the only way to get HD audio from these units.

From the HD -A3 "5.1-channel Dolby TrueHD available via HDMI output only"

From Dolby:
"Increasingly, A/V processors and receivers are being equipped with IEEE 1394 (FireWireŽ) or HDMI connections, capable of transporting up to eight channels of 24-bit/96 kHz PCM audio content. If your A/V receiver is equipped with this type of next-generation connection, you should look for a similarly furnished next-generation optical media player. By this method of connection, the mixed PCM signal is transported from the HD player to your A/V receiver, where digital signal processing and bass management can be easily effected."

http://www.dolby.com/images/consumer/technology/trueHD/fig2.jpg


Doldy also states that the sound quality should be the same either way.

" In the end, the sound quality will be essentially the same as that of audio decoded within the player as PCM signals and transported through a current-generation HDMI connection to the A/V receiver."

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_1.html


Also, this is the first I've heard of any popping issues with Onkyo. Where does this come from? I wonder if it's true or just one of those rumors that gets passed around. A friend of mine bought a 605 and driving Paradigm he hasn't mentioned anything like that. Onkyo/Integra is the closest you will get to a high current amp in the mass market brands. The 605 was wildly popular and Crutchfield is actually sold out of many Onkyo models. Crutchfield is an excellent place to buy. I have only had a couple warranty returns. The times I did they sent me new product with a return label for the problem unit.

I went through 3 805's and had issues with each one. I finally gave up. Here is a link to a poll at AVS. 29% of the 605/805 have experienced these issues. There are good units out there though and this is why I still recommend them.

Onkyo says this is not a malfuntion and is "normal".
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=859792&highlight=popping

I kept up with the Onkyo & Integra threads for a bit and the popping issue has been noted on all models from their new line up. This is from a Integra 9.8 thread.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=12119150&postcount=4279

Now some of these thread are 10,000 posts long so I'm not searching through all of them.

[Mr Peabody]

GM, good point, PS3 is only HDMI, I wonder how the HD formats does work with HDMI through the PS3? Does your owners manual specifically say you will receive the HD audio formats? It seems PS3 is an animal to itself from Sony but Sony's receiver's are one of the big ones as far as distorting the truth on what the HDMI will do or limiting the capability of HDMI on their receivers. This generalization may only apply to the lower levels I haven't seen each one. I do remember a thread here as well where some one was complaining about the HDMI ability on their Sony.

I'm only going by what I've read off the Dolby, DTS and some of the HT websites. LJ was up on this as well and may have more info. Sir T has PS3 as well and may know.

If your receiver decodes the HD formats does it display like Tru-HD on your receiver when playing movies on PS3?

[GMichael]

GM, good point, PS3 is only HDMI, I wonder how the HD formats does work with HDMI through the PS3? Does your owners manual specifically say you will receive the HD audio formats? It seems PS3 is an animal to itself from Sony but Sony's receiver's are one of the big ones as far as distorting the truth on what the HDMI will do or limiting the capability of HDMI on their receivers. This generalization may only apply to the lower levels I haven't seen each one. I do remember a thread here as well where some one was complaining about the HDMI ability on their Sony.

I'm only going by what I've read off the Dolby, DTS and some of the HT websites. LJ was up on this as well and may have more info. Sir T has PS3 as well and may know.

If your receiver decodes the HD formats does it display like Tru-HD on your receiver when playing movies on PS3?

My receiver is a few years old now. I don't have HDMI and therefore, no Tru-HD sound. I do have analog inputs on both of my AVR's. This lets me play SACD in my bedroom. The PS3 will play them two, but with no HDMI, I only get 2 channel music through the analog in. The toshlink is compressed, and I don't think that the PS3 will output SACD's through it anyhow.
Right now I have all sound from the PS3 coming through the toshlink. No Tru-HD or SACD's.

[L.J.]

If your receiver decodes the HD formats does it display like Tru-HD on your receiver when playing movies on PS3?

The PS3 cannot output bitstream for decoding. It decodes and outputs as pcm. My AVR says MCPCM.

[Mr Peabody]

Take this for what it is worth. Seems I need to do some learning on PCM.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=770354

And it gets more confusing, this article casts doubts again...

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/05/08/no-dolby-truehd-or-dts-hd-for-ps3-owners/

This will require more time than I have now.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks for the info LJ. It looks like if wanting to use HDMI with HD audio one needs to be sure the receiver/processor will accept a multichannel PCM signal. It sounds like yours does. The article I posted seemed to indicate the Onkyo 05 series will not. When looking at features I don't remember anythin mentioned pertaining to PCM, what is it called on your receiver?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Great info L.J. I very much appreciate it. Can't give you any greenies, so here's two cookies. :thumbsup:

If the lossless formats are transported via HDMI, and the HDMI spec and it's creators are all dysfunctional, what do we do? I think now it'll be important that while interviewing, I'm going to request a blu-ray movie be played through the receiver so I can see exactly what the receiver detects. Hopefully there are indicators on the AVR that light up when the s/w includes Dolby Tru-HD

[L.J.]

Thanks for the info LJ. It looks like if wanting to use HDMI with HD audio one needs to be sure the receiver/processor will accept a multichannel PCM signal. It sounds like yours does. The article I posted seemed to indicate the Onkyo 05 series will not. When looking at features I don't remember anythin mentioned pertaining to PCM, what is it called on your receiver?

No, the 05 & 04 series from Onkyo is OK. It's not always listed in the features but I think will state it somewhere in the manual. Some have phoned the manuf. to ask since it's not always mentioned.

Many thought that the new HDMI 1.3 series from Onkyo's would be able to accept a bitstream signal from their PS3. They didn't realize that the PS3 cannot output the bitstream signal, just decode it and output the decoded signal via HDMI.

[Mr Peabody]

Well, we do learn something every day. I guess there may be hope for those with HDMI or potential buyers, they just have to dig deep to be sure it will accept PCM. I personally would check with the manufacturer, I doubt if many sales people would know what you are talking about and say anything.

Yeah, sorry, LJ, I must have also given you a good chicklet not so long ago. I was told to spread it around some more. He's gone spreading :)

[Rich-n-Texas]

Well, we do learn something every day. I guess there may be hope for those with HDMI or potential buyers, they just have to dig deep to be sure it will accept PCM. I personally would check with the manufacturer, I doubt if many sales people would know what you are talking about and say anything.

Yeah, sorry, LJ, I must have also given you a good chicklet not so long ago. I was told to spread it around some more. He's gone spreading :)
Very sad but very true. Another argument for the *bring it home and see for yourself* argument I guess.

[basite]

Very sad but very true. Another argument for the *bring it home and see for yourself* argument I guess.


yes, it's sad...

but bringing stuff home and see for yourself is always good, you'll never know how the equipment reacts to it's envorniment...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Rich-n-Texas]

So where the manufacturer states: "By connecting a player compatible with these new audio codecs to an Onkyo A/V receiver equipped with 7.1 multichannel inputs, you will be able to experience extreme sonic clarity from these new discs, while retaining the full use of the receiver’s other onboard codecs." that means that the high resolution formats will be decoded by the AVR, but not necessarily over HDMI, is that correct?

I took that quote from the Integra 7.8's explanation of the [B]7.1 Channel logo.

[GMichael]

So where the manufacturer states: "By connecting a player compatible with these new audio codecs to an Onkyo A/V receiver equipped with 7.1 multichannel inputs, you will be able to experience extreme sonic clarity from these new discs, while retaining the full use of the receiver’s other onboard codecs." that means that the high resolution formats will be decoded by the AVR, but not necessarily over HDMI, is that correct?

I took that quote from the Integra 7.8's explanation of the [B]7.1 Channel logo.

7.1 multichannel inputs are for analog cables. No HDMI. The BR or HD-DVD player would be doing the DAC. That's great if you have a BR unit with analog outputs. Not so great if you have a PS3 that doesn't have those outputs.
What sources are you planning on using?

[Rich-n-Texas]

I don't know yet. The DVD changer I now use will be demoted to CD play only, because I like the convienence of loading up five disks, but I don't know if I'm ready to jump into Blu-ray/HD-DVD yet. The Oppo-981, although not a lossless audio player would satisfy my m/c music appetite just fine and is a good value for the money. This is another reason why I don't want to spend the entire budget on processing.

[Rich-n-Texas]

The Integra DTR-7.8 features independent block construction for the preamplifier and amplifier sections for improved low-noise performance. Each of the seven amplifier modules rated at 130 Watts per channel into 8 ohms (20Hz - 20 kHz, 0.05% THD) and incorporates a newly developed push-pull amplifier configuration and discrete power output devices. Integra's exclusive WRAT (Wide Range Amplifier Technology) and a high current power supply capable of delivering 60 amps of instantaneous current for transient response round out the fundamental performance of the receiver, which is capable of dynamic and linear response from 5 Hz all the way to 100 kHz. Finally, the receiver's rear surround amplifier channels can be reconfigured to reproduce the front L/R channel signals, allowing for biamplification of speakers capable of this function.
Still need to know if this qualifies the Integra as a receiver with *High Current* amplification.

Getting back to the original purpose of this topic and to partially answer my own question, I'll take s/w including a regular CD, a recently produced DVD (Batman Begins), and a DVD-A with me before I decide to bring an AVR home for further evaluation.

Any more tips?

[Mr Peabody]

Rich, the Integra is a high current design as is the Onkyos.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Thanks Mr P. And just to reiterate, I appreciate everybody's positive input. :thumbsup:

[L.J.]

Come on Rich, you should be auditioning new gear and giving us your thoughts. We need as many reviewers as possible :)

[Rich-n-Texas]

To coincide with the opening of the new season of American Idol, auditions commence next week! There's a Kellum's (are they a national/regional firm?) not far from work so I'm going to get in touch and see what they've got that I can play with. It'll be up to all y'all to interpret my audio terminology challenged descriptions of what I see and hear.

Meanwhile, I'm spending time drawing up my new and (hopefully) improved room layout which I'll post in the Critique My Layout thread shortly, because there haven't been any hot women falling out of the sky and into my lap lately. :rolleyes:

[L.J.]

One step at a time buddy! I can't even begin to tell you the huge improvements I have slowly made over the years. Wait, yes I can. It's all here, but you gotta find it somewhere in my 2300 posts.

[Rich-n-Texas]

The good thing is I don't have to rely too much on my memory. As a matter of fact...

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=23134 Original AVR reviews

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=23558 805 follow-up review
and
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=21809 Pics of HT room

I'm now remembering why I thought you were of Oriental desent too. You used a Japanese symbol for love on your pannels.

[Mr Peabody]

Rich, I hear that there are places where for a bit of cash the women are more than willing to fall into your lap. Then they want to do some kind of dance, what's that all about ?

[Rich-n-Texas]

I know about those places Mr P, but it costs too much to get... in. :sad:

[Mr Peabody]

I was joking anyway, we wouldn't want to do anything that would tarnish our halo.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Just to review L.J.'s panel assembly...

Hey Topspeed, the asian characters mean Love & Happiness. The theme goes throughout the house. They're glued to the panel using a light spray of adhesive. They should pull right off if I wanted to ever remove them. The panels are Owens 703 fiberglass and the fabric is burlap. I got the material from atsacoustic.

I glued my panels to a 1/4" board using spray adhesive and hung on the wall using saw tooth picture hanging hardware.
Okay, what panel thickness did you go with? Wasn't it 2"? I'm going to buy a 6 pack of DIY panels, a roll of burlap and 3M spay adhesive. How did you fasten the burlap to the panel, and how did you keep the fabric taught during that step? I'll buy some sheets of 1/4" backing board and have Home Depot cut them in 2' x 4' pieces. Thanks teach! :thumbsup:

[L.J.]

Read this thread. Kex posted some great info including step by step panel instructions.

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=18676&highlight=panel

[pixelthis]

Still need to know if this qualifies the Integra as a receiver with *High Current* amplification.

Getting back to the original purpose of this topic and to partially answer my own question, I'll take s/w including a regular CD, a recently produced DVD (Batman Begins), and a DVD-A with me before I decide to bring an AVR home for further evaluation.

Any more tips?

Yeah, don't eat butterbeans and stand next to a candle
AND you have two rear center channel amps, that can also be used for B speakers.
Or you can take the jumpers off of the rear of your speakers, run you mains into one
set, the "B" channel into another.
This will give you bi-amping, not to mention 200 w into each front speaker, but you will have to leave your B speakers on all of the time of course.
Be plenty loud though (havent tried it myself)

[StevenSurprenant]

I just went through this (finding a home theater receiver) myself. Cost was an issue for me as was being able to drive 4 ohm speakers (Magnepan).

Up to this point I was a 2 channel guy and went the high end route for many years. I sold my Quads and levinson gear and built a homebrew pair of Newform Research R465's powered by a lowly Panasonic XR25 receiver and not looked back since. Ironically, I have the best sound ever in my home.

I always wanted to go surround sound on the cheap and so my search began for speakers and amps. I decided on Magnepan because of the deep expansive sound stage they produce. I takes very good box speakers to do what the Maggies do for very little money. Besides, the models I bought hang on the wall and out of the way of my main system. I can find much to criticize the Magnepans, but that would apply to almost every speaker I have heard at any price. That said, they have one major defect and that is they are 5 ohm and 88dB efficient. Not that bad considering the rest of Magnepans lineup, but still an issue that needs to be addressed with adequate power. Oh, by the way, one of their better attributes is the way the handle voices, very nicely and important to me for movies.

Anyway, to get to the point, I bought a Yamaha RX1800 fo $850 delivered from Audiogon and am in the process of running it through its paces.

I am running Magnepan MMGW on the front mains and a pair of System Audio for the center channel until the rest of the Magenpans get here on Tuesday. Now I realize that this is not a final test, but I thought I'd give you some input to get you interested until then. My room is about 13 ft wide X 18 ft deep (approx). This is much smaller than your room and therefore I do not need as much power as you would. Of course that depends on your speaker efficiency.

At this point,

Power:
Power is a total non issue, there is way more than enough. After hours of watching movies the receiver is barely warm.

Auto setup:
This is a wonderful thing. It sets up all the speakers in minutes and I had only to plug in the microphone (supplied) and press one button. The interesting thing is that since the center speakers are box speakers and the mains are planers the match between them is much better after the auto adjustment then I would have expected.

Soundstaging:
Using only the mains for this test, It was very good. This is one area that Magnepan performs their magic and the Yamaha did not stand in their way. I have also heard Magnepans using Marantz, Integra, and NAD and they all sounded about the same. I heard these in different stores at different times, so take this with a grain of salt.

Menu system:
Awkward but it works.

Equalizer:
This unit uses parametric (auto setup) and graphic (user setup) equalizers. This helps to make all your speakers sound the same regardless of where they are in the room therefore creating a seemless soundfield.

Okay, let's stop here. If you have any questions please ask and I will tell you what I know.

I will tell you this, I am happy with the results so far.

One last point...

When it comes to surround, I am a total amateur here! I'm sure that many patrons of this forum are more qualified to answer your questions, but I still will try to help.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah, don't eat butterbeans and stand next to a candle
Why not? We used to light farts. It was fun!!!

AND you have two rear center channel amps, that can also be used for B speakers.
Or you can take the jumpers off of the rear of your speakers, run you mains into one
set, the "B" channel into another.
This will give you bi-amping, not to mention 200 w into each front speaker, but you will have to leave your B speakers on all of the time of course.
Be plenty loud though (havent tried it myself)
Thanks for the refresher but I've already completed that chapter.

I'm finding the Integra line very hard to come by and I think it's because this receiver is described as an "installer friendly" unit. I read an article where the reviewer had no problems setting it up (and he gave it high marks BTW). My concern is still that I won't get competitive pricing when I'm ready to make the purchase.

[pixelthis]

Why not? We used to light farts. It was fun!!!

Thanks for the refresher but I've already completed that chapter.

I'm finding the Integra line very hard to come by and I think it's because this receiver is described as an "installer friendly" unit. I read an article where the reviewer had no problems setting it up (and he gave it high marks BTW). My concern is still that I won't get competitive pricing when I'm ready to make the purchase.

Obviously a carpetbagger whos not serious about his butterbeans.
And I hate to tell ya, but lighting farts (at least diliberately ) is consider kind of "gay"
(not that theres anything wrong with that)
And installers do like the integra, its a prepro at a receiver price, if I got a seperate amp
and hooked it up I would have a serious seperates system, which was my original intent,
to step up to a seperates system, the Integra was going to be a stepping stone
(darn dogtrack):1:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Obviously a carpetbagger whos not serious about his butterbeans.
I don't even know what butterbeans are butterball.

And I hate to tell ya, but lighting farts (at least diliberately ) is consider kind of "gay"
(not that theres anything wrong with that)
It wasn't "gay" back in the early 60's when my friends and I invented it. In fact, it was all the rage!

"Kind" of gay? You're either gay or not gay. There's no middle ground. :rolleyes:

And installers do like the integra, its a prepro at a receiver price, if I got a seperate amp
and hooked it up I would have a serious seperates system, which was my original intent,
to step up to a seperates system, the Integra was going to be a stepping stone
(darn dogtrack):1:
What's this? You lost all your money at the dog races? :lol:

[L.J.]

I'm finding the Integra line very hard to come by and I think it's because this receiver is described as an "installer friendly" unit. I read an article where the reviewer had no problems setting it up (and he gave it high marks BTW). My concern is still that I won't get competitive pricing when I'm ready to make the purchase.

This was my experience as well. No competitive pricing(both places would only do the MSRP$1300 for the 7.8) and no way to audition the unit. I had to special order, purchase and be stuck with it. Not that being stuck with a 7.8 would have been a bad thing :)

My understanding is that the 7.8 offers a few advantages over the 805(build quality, more flexibility.....) but the question is, is it worth the difference in price?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Can some one tell me what this spec from the 804's sheet means? (B&W 804 speaker that is)


Free-Field Response:
Listening axis +/- 2db, 31Hz - 20KHz
+/- 30 degree horizontal +/- 2dB to 10KHz
+/- 5 degree verticle +/- 2dB to 20KHz

[Mr Peabody]

I believe Spearitsound might carry Onkyo and Integra, I've seen both on their "used/demo" page. You might email them, if they carry both Jack is pretty good about breaking down differences between lines of gear you are looking at. If they stock Integra he will allow a reasonable audition and return but it's usually not as long as 30 days. I've always found them a class act to deal with.

I can't blame anyone though for not wanting to buy a product sight unseen and no way to return if it don't satisfy your needs.

[basite]

Can some one tell me what this spec from the 804's sheet means? (B&W 804 speaker that is)


Free-Field Response:
Listening axis +/- 2db, 31Hz - 20KHz
+/- 30 degree horizontal +/- 2dB to 10KHz
+/- 5 degree verticle +/- 2dB to 20KHz




If I'm correct that's the optimal listening axis...


I made a little drawing, because I can't explain it that easy (well, I could, but it'd be hard to understand...)

you should aim the speakers so your ears are definately within the 2 outer lines...

you'll get the best frequency response if your ears are on both the middle lines (the optimal listening axis), but this is not always the nicest to listen too, so that's why we play around with placement...
this is why so many people say that the sound is best when your tweeters are at 'ear level', but while this is (theoretically speaking) true, you might more like the sound when you're sitting under the tweeter level, or above...


I hope this was understandable...
(see pic below, note that the drawing is definately not on scale, and the outer and inner line doesn't really form the given angle (30°))

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Thank you! That's exactly what I thought.

(argument coming soon)

[Rich-n-Texas]

If I drew a line 30 degrees out from my speaker to the wall, why would that not be the point where the first reflection is going to occur? According to the procedure for finding the first reflection point that Wooch linked to, the point is where you see the reflection of your tweeter in a mirror slid along a wall from where you're sitting. To me that means the first reflection depends on seating position. That doesn't sound right to me. If the SPEAKER is stationary and the wall is stationary, how can the reflection point not be a constant?

[Mr Peabody]

The first reflection would not have anything to do with where you sit. It would be a constant, it would only change if you changed the direction, or toe, of the speaker. It looks to me like your figures are showing what the frequency response is inside the speakers optimum disspersion pattern. As you get outside that area the frequency response will not be as good. A speaker is only capable of radiating sound so many degrees vertically or horisontally.

[Rich-n-Texas]

So where that 30 degree line meets the first adjacent wall, that's where an acoustic panel should be placed right? And if I toe-in the speakers so that my sitting position is at the top of the equalateral(sp?) triangle, the placement of the panel will be even further away from the speaker. I'm going to need a protractor.

[Mr Peabody]

The mirror technique will work. Keep in mind the reflection will hit the wall whether it's sound is optimum or not.

I know what you mean though this is about the limit of my understanding or study in this area. I remember the first time I saw 30 degrees given, which seems a common spec, I thought, "this can't be, it's too narrow".

[pixelthis]

The mirror technique will work. Keep in mind the reflection will hit the wall whether it's sound is optimum or not.

I know what you mean though this is about the limit of my understanding or study in this area. I remember the first time I saw 30 degrees given, which seems a common spec, I thought, "this can't be, it's too narrow".

It depends on the dispersion of the tweeter (the Bass is nondirectional)
A lot of dedicated HTS' put carpet or drapes on the wall, looks nice and solves the problem,
but I doubt if that will work in your rather nice living room.
When I got my first beemers, I noticed that some sound was coming from behind me,
in the form of reflections.
STRANGE that we spend big bucks creating a "surround" effect and try to get rid of a natural one. Oh welll...

[Rich-n-Texas]

I can bring home an Integra DTR 7.8 for two weeks to audition. AND, the store will knock $100 off MSRP! (Can you tell I'm leaning towards an Intergra?)

Yes I know... audition audition audition.

[L.J.]

I can bring home an Integra DTR 7.8 for two weeks to audition. AND, the store will knock $100 off MSRP! (Can you tell I'm leaning towards an Intergra?)

Yes I know... audition audition audition.

I would still give the 805 a try to see how it stacks up to it's twin brother. Yes, I know Integra has a rep for higher quality components, but I'm just thinking how much of an improvement in SQ it will have over the 805, which can be had for half the price.

Also, you should give an HDMI source a try to see if either unit has the popping issue. I would hate for you to purchase a unit to only find out it has issues later on once you get into HD. Mine only happened when using my PS3, but others reported this when using the Toshiba players as well. Perhaps pick up an A3 when you get everything hooked up and just return it. You should be able to rent a few HDDVD from netflix. I guess it wouldn't be a problem if you used the 5.1 analog outs though. Just a though.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I agree L.J. I mentioned in my first post about making a checklist. I'm going to do that based on what I'm being told here. This will be my first shot at the auditioning process so I can easily interogate people and receivers with everything I've read in this thread. Don't want to sound like a broken record but I seriously appreciate everyone's advice. The AVS forum is also helpful but I'll tell ya, it's just waaaaaaaaay too much reading in their "Official" this/that threads (I really don't know why they don't trim them).

The thing I don't understand about the Integra line is why Onkyo wants to restrict these to the custom installer outlets. I realize there are aspects of the unit that are suited to that realm, but I've read nothing to indicate to me that people like me with limited, how did Pix say it..."considering your knowledge base a receiver is probably best." :rolleyes: abillities will have install problems. The abillity to integrate it into home automation systems, though I don't have any immediate plans to utilize it is just one more future-proofing aspect. But yeah, high quality internal components and a 3 year warranty make it attractive. And the salesperson at Kellum's, on the surface, seems to be willing to accomodate me which is more than I expected.

I can test for handshaking issues with the 805 (and I think there are other Onkyo units) in the stores using their equipment. I found a couple other higher end stores (The Home Theater Store has a pretty comprehensive line-up) in the event BB and Fry's don't have the HD players you mention.

[L.J.]

Sounds like you got everything figured out Rich. I look foward to your reviews.

[Rich-n-Texas]

The pressure's on! :yikes:

[Mr Peabody]

It would be interesting to see how much difference there is between 805 and 7.8. I'd bet there is. I knew of a guy who drove a pair of Kappa 9's with some Integra gear. If you know anything about the Kappa 9's then you know that driving them is quite an achievement. Although some have said to the contrary, I thought the ES gear I heard was a definite improvement over the mass market Sony gear. I haven't heard any Elite but I'd hope it was an improvement over Pioneer, most anything else is.

[pixelthis]

It would be interesting to see how much difference there is between 805 and 7.8. I'd bet there is. I knew of a guy who drove a pair of Kappa 9's with some Integra gear. If you know anything about the Kappa 9's then you know that driving them is quite an achievement. Although some have said to the contrary, I thought the ES gear I heard was a definite improvement over the mass market Sony gear. I haven't heard any Elite but I'd hope it was an improvement over Pioneer, most anything else is.

when I GOT MY 7.4 I COULDN'T find much difference between it and a comparable Onkyo, but quality was better and the price was only a hundred bucks more or so,
I was planning to live with it for awhile so it semed a good idea, and I have always been a fan of the "minimalist
' look, the Integra just looked cooler, and not everybody has one.
Cant talk about "handshaking" with the ethernet port, havent used mine, but there is a switch on the front, server or net radio.
There is a menu for DNS, I JUST USE AUTOMATIC, and the mac number is available,
allows your cable company to find it, just like a cable modem.
TRY IT A FEW WEEKS RICH, but I warn you, after that one lung Yammy what it does for your Beemers might be a bit addictive:1:

[Mr Peabody]

When you say > [QUOTE=pixelthis]when I GOT MY 7.4 I COULDN'T find much difference between it and a comparable Onkyo, but quality was better and the price was only a hundred bucks more or so, < are you talking sound quality wise where you heard both through the same speakers or are you just talking features?

[pixelthis]

When you say > [QUOTE=pixelthis]when I GOT MY 7.4 I COULDN'T find much difference between it and a comparable Onkyo, but quality was better and the price was only a hundred bucks more or so, < are you talking sound quality wise where you heard both through the same speakers or are you just talking features?

Build quality, the most important aspect of ANYTHING
From the Plugs in the back to the knobs on the front, An integra isnt a typical plasticy
generic receiver thats squeezed outta a tube.
The front face plate (real metal) has an aluminum vollume knob, and power button,
Most of the buttons disapear unless directly lighted.
And theres all of the little things that make a prepro a prepro.
basically it looks like an authenic piece of HI-FI equipment, not a posuer.
It cost 1200, a similar onkyo 900, and I dont regret the purchase a bit.
THE AMPS ARE QUITE, you hear NOTHING when there is no signal, no matter how high you turn it up, no crosstalk whatsoever.
The phono stage is basic, sure, but you have one, most have deep sixed theirs.
And like most well designed gear, complex tasks are simple, automation transparent.
Flip to an input and it switches to whatever you had that input set to, at the same vollume level if you wish. The vollume control is digital.
THE SPECS are ,05 % distortion, audiophile grade, damping factor, 60.
All seven amps are the same.
And true a lot of this is inside an Onkyo, but you will live with this for awhile, go for the lexus instead of a Camry.:1:

[L.J.]

Someone at AVS took the time to list the diff between the 7.8 and it's twin brother the 805.

"What are the differences between the Onkyo and Integra variants, you ask?

Integra products are designed with custom installation in mind. They only come in the Black Finish. They have hand-selected components (capacitors, etc). RS-232 ports for control up and down the line. 3 year warranty up and down the line.

There are also some feature enhancements over the Onkyo versions.
For instance, the 6.8 and higher all feature ethernet ports for I.P. control (AMX, Crestron, etc). The 7.8 and up also Zone 2 Subwoofer Out and Zone 2 HD component video out."


But is that worth double the price? I guess for some it is. I personally would have liked to auditioned both of these side by side, but something tells me I would have still ended up with the Onkyo. Very hard to beat for $699.

Now if Onkyo/Integra would get off their butts and do something about that freakin' popping :incazzato:

[Rich-n-Texas]

The current line of DTR's no longer include Nettune but that's okay. When I had DirecTV, it came with some XM channels and I had a couple of favorites, so I might subscribe to it.

...but you will live with this for awhile...
If I understand what he's saying here correctly... I'm not the type to replace A/V equipment (cars either) every three years so longevity is pretty important.

Mr. P, I was going to do a side-by-side spec comparison here but Pix, in his own little way pretty much summed things up. The listening tests start Monday.

[Rich-n-Texas]

For me L.J., the comparison will be the 7.8 vs the RX-V1800. I would think that by the beginning of Feb, prices won't be what they were at the end of '07, and CES is next week.

If my hunch is right about this store I'm going to visit, I'm going to get a good deal on whichever one I buy. They have two listening rooms so for the initial try-out I'm sure I'll have a good feel for which ones to bring home.

[Rich-n-Texas]

"Integra products are designed with custom installation in mind. They only come in the Black Finish. They have hand-selected components (capacitors, etc). RS-232 ports for control up and down the line. 3 year warranty up and down the line.

There are also some feature enhancements over the Onkyo versions.
For instance, the 6.8 and higher all feature ethernet ports for I.P. control (AMX, Crestron, etc). The 7.8 and up also Zone 2 Subwoofer Out and Zone 2 HD component video out."
I think the only reason they talk about it as for the custom installer in mind is because RS-232 and IP are built in. That's fine but like I said if I can integrate it into a future home automation system myself, then that's a plus. I like the three year warranty because that obviously speaks towards the Integra's integrity (pun!). The bit about "hand selected components" seems vague to me but I do know there are differences in component quality because I've worked with many different manufacturers parts in my career in electronics. In the old days, quality was a given, but not anymore, much to my shagrin.



But is that worth double the price? I guess for some it is. I personally would have liked to auditioned both of these side by side, but something tells me I would have still ended up with the Onkyo. Very hard to beat for $699.
You know I'll be reporting back on that comparison L.J. :yesnod:


Now if Onkyo/Integra would get off their butts and do something about that freakin' popping :incazzato:
You know I'll be reporting back on that too L.J. :yesnod:

[Mr Peabody]

Rich, I'll be waiting for the word.

I would think better parts would yield better sound. A receiver just sits on a shelf, I don't care if it's plastic or metal, if I have to pay more money it has to sound better.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I stopped at Fry's just to see what they might have connected up in their version of an auditioning room and sure enough the 805 was on duty and driving some Polk (I think) speakers. A DVD was being played on a tiny little Visio looking toy, but unfortunately (L.J.) the 805's HDMI out wasn't being used. I asked the salesperson, who I must admit did seem to know a thing or two about receivers (of course that's not saying much considering it was ME he was talking to :rolleyes: ) if he was aware of the popping during handshaking with PS3's and he said no. The only handshaking anomally he talked about was picture flicker when changing to a different source.

So while it was running I got to touch the beast that it is. It's big, it's heavy and brother it runs hot. If I'd left my hand on the grill too long I'm sure it would've left burn marks on my hand. Just like the marks I see on the steaks I cook out on the grill in the middle of winter! :biggrin5: I talked to the rep about that; he told me the 805 is the workhorse in the room, it's on 24/7, and according to him, never any issues. I said well yeah but what about longevity, does it have a shorter life span than a Yamaha and he told me that's the way Onkyo designs them. Someone over on the AVS forum mentioned the heat was due to the THX requirements, but who knows.

Another issue I was reading about over on AVS was the lip sync problem. There seems to be some confusion about whether or not Onkyo is addressing the issue with firmware updates, which one might fix it, which version works best...etc. I was turned off by all that though because of the anger and frustration I had to deal with over the years when I was using an ATI video card in my computer. I don't want ANYTHING to do with firmware issues and updates in my receiver! :incazzato:

I have to say that overall I was impressed with its power; during some scenes in the movie, which I wasn't even paying attention to, where there was a lot of action, the sub sounded so good that I kept having the urge to turn down the receiver's volume from it's -18dB setting. But again I couldn't get a good feel for it's musicality because of the room it was in.

We then talked about pricing, and he told me it just came off of a $699 sale but it will probably come back up soon, according to him. And yeah, there were no blacks units in stock, only a big stack of silver ones on display. I went over to it and just casually lifted one and it's every bit of its hefty 60 lbs! :eek: I have a feeling it would break the shelf in my audio cabinet. I better check the specs!

So anyway, that's where I am with the 805 at this time. It is one that I'll see about bringing home for a better look-see/hear.

[pixelthis]

I stopped at Fry's just to see what they might have connected up in their version of an auditioning room and sure enough the 805 was on duty and driving some Polk (I think) speakers. A DVD was being played on a tiny little Visio looking toy, but unfortunately (L.J.) the 805's HDMI out wasn't being used. I asked the salesperson, who I must admit did seem to know a thing or two about receivers (of course that's not saying much considering it was ME he was talking to :rolleyes: ) if he was aware of the popping during handshaking with PS3's and he said no. The only handshaking anomally he talked about was picture flicker when changing to a different source.

So while it was running I got to touch the beast that it is. It's big, it's heavy and brother it runs hot. If I'd left my hand on the grill too long I'm sure it would've left burn marks on my hand. Just like the marks I see on the steaks I cook out on the grill in the middle of winter! :biggrin5: I talked to the rep about that; he told me the 805 is the workhorse in the room, it's on 24/7, and according to him, never any issues. I said well yeah but what about longevity, does it have a shorter life span than a Yamaha and he told me that's the way Onkyo designs them. Someone over on the AVS forum mentioned the heat was due to the THX requirements, but who knows.

Another issue I was reading about over on AVS was the lip sync problem. There seems to be some confusion about whether or not Onkyo is addressing the issue with firmware updates, which one might fix it, which version works best...etc. I was turned off by all that though because of the anger and frustration I had to deal with over the years when I was using an ATI video card in my computer. I don't want ANYTHING to do with firmware issues and updates in my receiver! :incazzato:

I have to say that overall I was impressed with its power; during some scenes in the movie, which I wasn't even paying attention to, where there was a lot of action, the sub sounded so good that I kept having the urge to turn down the receiver's volume from it's -18dB setting. But again I couldn't get a good feel for it's musicality because of the room it was in.

We then talked about pricing, and he told me it just came off of a $699 sale but it will probably come back up soon, according to him. And yeah, there were no blacks units in stock, only a big stack of silver ones on display. I went over to it and just casually lifted one and it's every bit of its hefty 60 lbs! :eek: I have a feeling it would break the shelf in my audio cabinet. I better check the specs!

So anyway, that's where I am with the 805 at this time. It is one that I'll see about bringing home for a better look-see/hear.


They tell you in the instruction manuel that it runs hot, they meant to do it that way.
Mine is three years or so old, no "poping" that doesnt come from orvile reddenbacher,
and no lip synch either, this is from a three year old model.
And they dont have nettune anymore, but its my understanding that they do have ethernet,
same thing.
I leave mine on whenever I am awake and off from work, BTW

[Rich-n-Texas]

They tell you in the instruction manuel that it runs hot, they meant to do it that way.
Do what what way?

Mine is three years or so old, no "poping" that doesnt come from orvile reddenbacher,
That would be... popping. And of course it doesn't come from Orville Reddenbacher, he's dead.

and no lip synch either, this is from a three year old model.
You're one of the lucky ones then. There ARE owners who are having problems with it though, and again, I don't want anything to do with unstable firmware!

And they dont have nettune anymore, but its my understanding that they do have ethernet,
same thing.
Ethernet is the same thing as nettune? HUGH?

Net Tune was a program allowing access to internet radio that was built into the receiver. Integra now uses PlaysForSure but it's not available on the model I'm interested in.

I leave mine on whenever I am awake and off from work, BTW
And when are you awake?:cool:

[GMichael]

I leave my RX-V2500 on 24/7. My cable DVR has a timer built in. I have it set to come on and go off automatically to match my schedule. So I just leave the receiver on. It never gets more than warm.

[f0rge]

wow this thread has a lot of info in it...

i'm looking at the same range of receivers, the RX-V1800 was at the top of my list because of the connections it offers and the fact i'm quite happy with my current yammer

has anyone had any experience with HD audio? currently i'm running BR and HDDVD audio via optical to my receiver in 5.1, and even that is pretty amazing. so i'm wondering if HD audio is worth the hype just for movies???

see the reason i'm wondering is that for the price of this receiver i can pick up a nice rotel rmb-1075 AND sell my adcom and i'm sure it would sound amazing. but then again the DACs in the rx-v1800 would be so much better than what i have right now and cable management would be so much easier with the rx-v1800...

in conclusion i dont know what i want :(

[musicman1999]

On pure sound quality the Rotel will best the Yamaha by some distance but i don't think it has HDMI, to bad your PS3 lacks analog outs so the new sound formats would be out of the question as you would need to use the coax digital input.You need to decide what is most important.

bill

[pixelthis]

Do what what way?
Design amplifiers, they use high current amps, I beleive class A (not sure, its not in the specs) Just say they built em to run hot
That would be... popping. And of course it doesn't come from Orville Reddenbacher, he's dead.
Do you even have any comprehension of a joke?
My receiver doesnt "pop", it doesnt snap or crackle either

You're one of the lucky ones then. There ARE owners who are having problems with it though, and again, I don't want anything to do with unstable firmware!
Unstable? The only thing "unstable" is your emotional state. I have used my receiver for three going on four years withojut problems, a friend has an onkyo with no problems, how "stable " do you want?

Ethernet is the same thing as nettune? HUGH?
My nettune uses an ethernet cable, I HAVE A SWITCH FOR SERVER/NETRADIO.
Dont know where you got that this is used for control functions.
I dont use mine anyway since it uses mp3 and wma, and I dont like lossy

Net Tune was a program allowing access to internet radio that was built into the receiver. Integra now uses PlaysForSure but it's not available on the model I'm interested in.

And when are you awake?:cool
Awake is whats called councious, you should try it sometimes:1:

[GMichael]

Unstable? The only thing "unstable" is your emotional state. I have used my receiver for three going on four years withojut problems, a friend has an onkyo with no problems, how "stable " do you want?

:

I've had my Yammy for 3 years now. I still think of it as new. The Pioneer in the basement is about 25 years old and going strong. The Panasonic in the garrage is going on 35 years old. The built in 8-track recorder even still works.

4 years? Pfffft..

[Rich-n-Texas]

Design amplifiers, they use high current amps, I beleive class A (not sure, its not in the specs) Just say they built em to run hot
I'm editing your post as I go through it to correct your misuse of quote tags...

Do you even have any comprehension of a joke?
Ha ha ha ha ha!!! :lol: Uhhh... no. Not yours anyway. :biggrin5:

My receiver doesnt "pop", it doesnt snap or crackle either
So which is it, popcorn or rice crispies? I like both. :rolleyes:

Unstable? The only thing "unstable" is your emotional state. I have used my receiver for three going on four years withojut problems, a friend has an onkyo with no problems, how "stable " do you want?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=933736
Don't get out much do ya?

My nettune uses an ethernet cable, I HAVE A SWITCH FOR SERVER/NETRADIO.
Dont know where you got that this is used for control functions.

For instance, the 6.8 and higher all feature ethernet ports for I.P. control (AMX, Crestron, etc).
It's also mentioned in the spec. Surprised you didn't check.

I dont use mine anyway since it uses mp3 and wma, and I dont like lossy
It works in a pinch. It's convenient to just crack up a 50 or so long playlist from my computer when I'm doing woman's work around the house.

Awake is whats called councious, you should try it sometimes:1:
You spelled conscious wrong. Irregardless, my drugs are what keep me sane and unconscious, and they cost a lot of money, so...

[Rich-n-Texas]

I've had my Yammy for 3 years now. I still think of it as new. The Pioneer in the basement is about 25 years old and going strong. The Panasonic in the garrage is going on 35 years old. The built in 8-track recorder even still works.

4 years? Pfffft..
The more time I spend reading posts like this the more I miss my Pioneer SX-450 with it's wood veneers, silver knobs and that wonderful analog signal strength meter. That was the very first receiver I owned back in the '70s.

I'm feeling blue... :(

[pixelthis]

The more time I spend reading posts like this the more I miss my Pioneer SX-450 with it's wood veneers, silver knobs and that wonderful analog signal strength meter. That was the very first receiver I owned back in the '70s.

I'm feeling blue... :(
I miss my 35wpc yamaha.
Stop paying so much for the drugs, you arent getting your moneys worth.
AND friends dont let friends (or whatever you are) do MP3.
Check out Flac and Ape lossless codecs, on their respective sites.
Winamp has a plugin for both, ripping a CD in fLAC IS JUST AS EFFORTLESS
as ripping an Mp3, I am currently filling up a hard drive with cd'S RECORDED IN fLAC.
True high fidelity without the WAV file size, or the 900$ CD player:1:

[GMichael]

I miss my 35wpc yamaha.
Stop paying so much for the drugs, you arent getting your moneys worth.
AND friends dont let friends (or whatever you are) do MP3.
Check out Flac and Ape lossless codecs, on their respective sites.
Winamp has a plugin for both, ripping a CD in fLAC IS JUST AS EFFORTLESS
as ripping an Mp3, I am currently filling up a hard drive with cd'S RECORDED IN fLAC.
True high fidelity without the WAV file size, or the 900$ CD player:1:

To seek out new life, new civilizations. To boldly go....

[Rich-n-Texas]

I liked the women better.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I went to the Kellum's store on Friday to see about auditioning an Intergra but was disappointed. There were four models on the shelf, unplugged, but none in either auditioning room. I talked to the sales guy that I had been in touch with last week and he told me that they've made no progress on the "Integra Room". Apparently they do things a little different at this store. One room had a $3K Denon linked to all sorts of Paradigms, another room with Sony stuff that he told me was crappy and not to even bother, and the third room was intended for the Integra receivers. I sat down to listen to the Denon; he asked me if I brought any CD's to listen to... "NO!" (I know, checklist & all that jazzz :rolleyes: ), so he plugged in a smooth jazz CD. Boy those Paradigm Reference monitors are sweeeeeeet! Beautiful to look at and a very clear, detailed I guess you would say, sound.

Then we watched some of The Fifth Element on a Sony Blu-ray player (don't remember the HDTV brand) and I'll tell ya the clarity and detail that came out of the center channel was quite remarkable. Imaging was lacking though and I think that was because there were no room treatments. I'd love to own those Paradigms, but that's not what I was there for so I didn't stick around too much longer, other than to look at some of the 100's of TV's on display. I walked up to a JVC LCD and was surprised at how noticeable the screen-door effect was. I thought I was looking at my CRT TV at home.

I got clarification on the return policy as well. I was told they allow two weeks to return the unit, so it's not quite as good as I thought.

There was something I noticed with the Integras... on every model, when I spun the metal volume control knob, they all wobbled as if they were out-of-round. Not for nothing but that doesn't strike me as a receiver with "hand-picked" components, and it didn't happen when I spun the metal knob on the Denons.

The adventure continues...

[pixelthis]

I went to the Kellum's store on Friday to see about auditioning an Intergra but was disappointed. There were four models on the shelf, unplugged, but none in either auditioning room. I talked to the sales guy that I had been in touch with last week and he told me that they've made no progress on the "Integra Room". Apparently they do things a little different at this store. One room had a $3K Denon linked to all sorts of Paradigms, another room with Sony stuff that he told me was crappy and not to even bother, and the third room was intended for the Integra receivers. I sat down to listen to the Denon; he asked me if I brought any CD's to listen to... "NO!" (I know, checklist & all that jazzz :rolleyes: ), so he plugged in a smooth jazz CD. Boy those Paradigm Reference monitors are sweeeeeeet! Beautiful to look at and a very clear, detailed I guess you would say, sound.

Then we watched some of The Fifth Element on a Sony Blu-ray player (don't remember the HDTV brand) and I'll tell ya the clarity and detail that came out of the center channel was quite remarkable. Imaging was lacking though and I think that was because there were no room treatments. I'd love to own those Paradigms, but that's not what I was there for so I didn't stick around too much longer, other than to look at some of the 100's of TV's on display. I walked up to a JVC LCD and was surprised at how noticeable the screen-door effect was. I thought I was looking at my CRT TV at home.

I got clarification on the return policy as well. I was told they allow two weeks to return the unit, so it's not quite as good as I thought.

There was something I noticed with the Integras... on every model, when I spun the metal volume control knob, they all wobbled as if they were out-of-round. Not for nothing but that doesn't strike me as a receiver with "hand-picked" components, and it didn't happen when I spun the metal knob on the Denons.

The adventure continues...


You're absolutely right, those B&w SPEAKERS of yours SUX.
Sell em to me for fifty bucks, I'll even pay shipping, them you can get some of those paradoxes.
And it was probably you that was out of round:1:

[StevenSurprenant]

Back to the Yamaha RX-V1800...

I've had mine for a while and I've been driving 5 ohm Magnepan speakers. They play plenty loud and the amp has never got hot. I was worried that there might be a problem with power, but that never occured. I like this receiver and decided that in the event that power was a problem I could add some outboard amps. The Yamaha P Series II Amps caught me eye.


Models
P7000S
8Ω/STEREO 750W+750W
4Ω/STEREO 1100W+1100W
$699.00

P5000S
8Ω/STEREO 525W+525W
4Ω/STEREO 750W+750W
$599.00

P3500S
8Ω/STEREO 390W+390W
4Ω/STEREO 590W+590W
$499.00

P2500S
8Ω/STEREO 275W+275W
4Ω/STEREO 390W+390W
$399.00

My thoughts were to use one of these amps for the mains which would reduce the amount of current drawn from the power supply of the Yamaha receiver. Problem solved!

I have to add one more thought about the Yamaha receiver...

I tried the "Presence" speakers and I have to say that this feature is fantastic. It does two things. First it allows me to bring the image of the center channel up to the center of the screen and second, it creates an extrodinary amount of depth to the sound stage. When I switch back to standard surround sound the sound stage becomes rather like wall paper in comparison. I would buy this reciever again for this feature alone.

I am one happy camper!

As for this idea of power drops with all channels driven...

Keep in mind that in the real world, you will never have that occur. Except for a test signal, you will never be driving all channels to maximum output at the same time.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Thanks for bringing this up Steve. The RX-V1800 is now the front-runner for me. I'm reading too many stories on various discussion boards about Onkyo's heat problems, Denon's less bang-for-buck drawbacks, and the Integra is just too elusive. It seems like every store I go to when I try to audition receivers has this $2K receiver or that $5K receiver set up. I've spoken to some sales reps and even though I have to temper their stories due to their position, I've learned that the 1800 really fits my scenario best. I just don't like the idea of bringing home units from the BB's & CC's in my area, and like was indicated before, I'll be happy no matter what receiver upgrade I choose. The fact that it drives your Maggies with great ease is even more encouraging.

Ya know, while I've been rearranging my room and because my surrounds have been disconnected for a week now, I've been listening to music and TV in 2 channel stereo mode. I have to say that I've been nothing short of astounded with the imaging, bass response and the dialog clarity I've noticed. If I can get that with my weak HTR 5740, I can just imagine what it will be like when the speakers are being driven with more power.

[GMichael]

Thanks for bringing this up Steve. The RX-V1800 is now the front-runner for me. I'm reading too many stories on various discussion boards about Onkyo's heat problems, Denon's less bang-for-buck drawbacks, and the Integra is just too elusive. It seems like every store I go to when I try to audition receivers has this $2K receiver or that $5K receiver set up. I've spoken to some sales reps and even though I have to temper their stories due to their position, I've learned that the 1800 really fits my scenario best. I just don't like the idea of bringing home units from the BB's & CC's in my area, and like was indicated before, I'll be happy no matter what receiver upgrade I choose. The fact that it drives your Maggies with great ease is even more encouraging.

Ya know, while I've been rearranging my room and because my surrounds have been disconnected for a week now, I've been listening to music and TV in 2 channel stereo mode. I have to say that I've been nothing short of astounded with the imaging, bass response and the dialog clarity I've noticed. If I can get that with my weak HTR 5740, I can just imagine what it will be like when the speakers are being driven with more power.

Very true. As much as I like surround sound, 2 channel is the way to go for music recorded that way. Even my HTR-5740 sounds very good through a pair of JBL E20's. I've taken to leaving both systems in straight mode. Whatever goes in is what comes out (plus a sub). Although, watching a 2 channel TV show does sound better (to me) in Neo:6. The new CINEMA DSP Digital should do that even better.

[L.J.]

...I'll be happy no matter what receiver upgrade I choose.

I agree with that. After going through as many as I did, you soon realize that there is no night and day differences between these units.

[Rich-n-Texas]

My concern L.J. was that I was going to disappoint you and Mr P by not home auditioning as many receivers as possible, but its just not vaible in my situation. Too many other tasks to deal with right now.

[GMichael]

My concern L.J. was that I was going to disappoint you and Mr P .

Awwww.........
How sweet.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Kiss me GM. :biggrin5:

[GMichael]

Sorry, but..

I wouldn't kiss you with JM's lips and LJ pushing.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I'd give you a green chicklet for that remark if I only could. :rolleyes:

[GMichael]

Stop trying to flirt with me.

[L.J.]

My concern L.J. was that I was going to disappoint you and Mr P by not home auditioning as many receivers as possible, but its just not vaible in my situation. Too many other tasks to deal with right now.

So far my biggest improvements in sound have come from room treatments, speaker placement, sub EQ, getting my levels correct with the RS meter......you know, the little things.

Recently I moved my surrounds back a few feet and I was shocked at how much of an improvement it made. Alot of improvements can be made by simply optimizing what we have.

But you guys already know that.....don't mind me, I'm just running my mouth.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I agree. Construction resumes on the panels shortly. I purchased a sofa and loveseat from my sister (perfect timing); they're full sized pieces and will definatley help with my acoustical mess.

[GMichael]

So far my biggest improvements in sound have come from room treatments, speaker placement, sub EQ, getting my levels correct with the RS meter......you know, the little things.

Recently I moved my surrounds back a few feet and I was shocked at how much of an improvement it made. Alot of improvements can be made by simply optimizing what we have.

But you guys already know that.....don't mind me, I'm just running my mouth.

All fine information.
Remember, there are far more lurkers reading these threads than there are members reading it.
So, to all you lurkers out there. Take head to what LJ is saying. Some of the best upgades are cheaper than you think.

[JohnMichael]

Sorry, but..

I wouldn't kiss you with JM's lips and LJ pushing.




Leave my lips out of this discussion. They only go where and do what I want them to do.

[Rich-n-Texas]

GM started it! Not me! Give him the timeout!

[GMichael]

Leave my lips out of this discussion. They only go where and do what I want them to do.

But they're so full and juicy looking. I thought Tex would like them. Besides, you don't see LJ getting upset about doing the pushing.

[Mr Peabody]

Ah....., Rich, LJ and I love you, we'll be proud of you no matter what you do.

GM, you are a suck up but I have to admit you come off with some good ones sometimes. That would have gotten a chicklet from me as well.

Steven I'm glad the Yammie is working out and thanks for the info on the power amps. I want to look those up. I bet they are digital, pretty cheap for the power ratings stated. If they are decent though they could be a hit for Yamaha. I just hope they may have gone a bit more neutral sounding than their old house sound.

[StevenSurprenant]

Mr Peabody,

This is the link to those amps on the Yamaha site.

http://www.yamaha.com/ca/productdetail/0,,CNTID%25253D45252%252526CTID%25253D560498,00.ht ml

[Rich-n-Texas]

Ah....., Rich, LJ and I love you, we'll be proud of you no matter what you do.
Group hug!!! (Not you though GM.)

[Mr Peabody]

Those are DJ amps. They might still work if they sound good. You'll have to adapt to the XLR or 1/4 inch inputs. They do use a switching power supply, I wonder why they still need a fan.

[L.J.]

Rich..your going with the 1800 right? How much is it going for?

There's a thread over at AVS (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40207) that says the 3800 is going for $1098 at 6th Ave. Not sure if it's an authorized dealer. You'd have to look that up along with return info and all that good stuff.

[StevenSurprenant]

Those are DJ amps. They might still work if they sound good. You'll have to adapt to the XLR or 1/4 inch inputs. They do use a switching power supply, I wonder why they still need a fan.

Check this out...

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/topics/leading_technology/archives/learn_more_about_eeengine.html

I don't think I need these amps, but they are interesting.

[GMichael]

Ah....., Rich, LJ and I love you, we'll be proud of you no matter what you do.

GM, you are a suck up but I have to admit you come off with some good ones sometimes. That would have gotten a chicklet from me as well.

Steven I'm glad the Yammie is working out and thanks for the info on the power amps. I want to look those up. I bet they are digital, pretty cheap for the power ratings stated. If they are decent though they could be a hit for Yamaha. I just hope they may have gone a bit more neutral sounding than their old house sound.

Suck up?!

Hmpft...

[GMichael]

Group hug!!! (Not you though GM.)

Sniff sniff...

:17:

[GMichael]

Rich..your going with the 1800 right? How much is it going for?

There's a thread over at AVS (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40207) that says the 3800 is going for $1098 at 6th Ave. Not sure if it's an authorized dealer. You'd have to look that up along with return info and all that good stuff.

Wow! That's a great deal. You sure know how to tempt a guy.

[L.J.]

Wow! That's a great deal. You sure know how to tempt a guy.

You know, for the same price you could get away with a Yammie 661 & used 5 channel amp or maybe a new Emotiva. Let the Yammie hold you over until more pre/pro's are available that support HDMI and all that.

This will give you the HD audio formats. With the A2 & PS3, HDMI 1.3 is not needed since both units do the decoding and sends the pcm signal over HDMI. Just a thought :idea:

[Rich-n-Texas]

I just went to 6ave, plugged in the coupon code and sure enough, $500 off the price. Something doesn't seem right. That's too cheap!

My finances aren't quite lined up yet but a deal like this can't be passed up... if it's for real.:idea: :idea: :idea: :confused5:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Well, the audioholics guy says the coupon is good 'til the 7th. I need to think about this.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I just read their FAQ's page; they are an authorized dealer and their policies seem to run along the same lines as everyone else's so I'm going to call them tomorrow to get answers to a couple more questions. 10 wpc more for $100 less than the 1800... you just can't sneeze at that deal. Thanks again... and again... and again... L.J. for the tip.

[L.J.]

I just read their FAQ's page; they are an authorized dealer and their policies seem to run along the same lines as everyone else's so I'm going to call them tomorrow to get answers to a couple more questions. 10 wpc more for $100 less than the 1800... you just can't sneeze at that deal. Thanks again... and again... and again... L.J. for the tip.

Well....I'd be happy to take that $100 off your hands as a thank you gift :cornut:


http://www.yamaha.com/yec/compare/Detail.html?compitem1=&compitem2=558316&compitem3=558291&CTID=5000200&VNM=LIVE&comp_items=558316&comp_items=558291&B_compare.x=44&B_compare.y=6

You also get USB on the front panel and network capabilities. Also video in the 2nd zone, composite only though.

[Rich-n-Texas]

You know, for the same price you could get away with a Yammie 661 & used 5 channel amp or maybe a new Emotiva. Let the Yammie hold you over until more pre/pro's are available that support HDMI and all that.

Well....I'd be happy to take that $100 off your hands as a thank you gift
You are a wheeler-dealer extrordinaire aren't ya? :smilewinkgrin:

[L.J.]

This is pay back......you guys are always helping me spend all my money :cornut:

[Rich-n-Texas]

See what you started GM? I'm moving into negative cashflow territory.

[GMichael]

This is pay back......you guys are always helping me spend all my money :cornut:

That was me.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Give him a cookie. :rolleyes:

[Mr Peabody]

What's this Emotiva stuff? Anyone know who builds it or where it's from? Who sells it?

[L.J.]

http://www.emotiva.com/products.html

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/amplifiers/emotiva-ultra-theater-series/?searchterm=emotiva*

AH has a few reviews and plenty of owners. AVS gotta few owners threads going as well.

[Mr Peabody]

Thanks. On "why buy" they talk like they are sitting around building and designing the stuff then under "news" they talk about getting shipments in. People seem to like it? I'll have to check it out a bit more..

[O'Shag]

Rich, just some advise from a guy that had an experience with a reciever going down. I must have had my senses about me that day, because I decided to purchase my final choice, the Yamaha RX-Z9, from an authorized dealer. I could have saved hundreds of dollars elsewhere buying from companies that were not authorized - and thank God I didn't. Because Murphy is always lurking my receiver went down, this about 4 months after purchase. I sh!t the brick, but as it turned out, Yamaha were brilliant.

if you can, purchase your unit of choice from an authorized dealer. I think Crutchfield is one, but you should check on your final choice manufacturer's website to confirm. Don't take the seller's word on this, always check the manufacturers website to make sure. There are a few categories, so if you don't see the seller under one, you may under another, such as installers or something. By the way the Z9 has been flawless for the past few years.

The new Pioneer flagship looks very sweet. Its ICE powered and I'll bet it kicks arse, and washes the dishes too. Only problem is that its $6,500.00. Don't rule out Arcam either. Arcam may not have the visible bells and whistles of the Japanese fare, but its a serious performance machine, and will even put many seperates to shame. Might be a bit pricey though - perhaps 3k or so.

[pixelthis]

I just went to 6ave, plugged in the coupon code and sure enough, $500 off the price. Something doesn't seem right. That's too cheap!

My finances aren't quite lined up yet but a deal like this can't be passed up... if it's for real.:idea: :idea: :idea: :confused5:

Its probably grey market, a lot of new york companies are grey market companies.
In other words the product isnt intended for the American market, thats why its so cheap.
No overhead.
They buy one "real" item and zerox the instruction book for the rest, because all of the instruction books are in a forieng language, usually Japanese.
And it will have a "warranty" but its not a factory one, its one of theirs.
Grey market is not nessesarily bad , but you need to be carefull.
I GOT A GREY MARKET CAMERA ONCE AND THAT TURNED OUT WELL AND i saved a bunch, but you never know, might wind up with an expensive paperweight:1:

[Rich-n-Texas]

According to the Yamaha website, 6th Avenue IS a Yamaha authorized dealer. They're headquartered in New Jersey.

pixelthis, whenever you see this abbreviation in my posts: STFU, that means it's directed at you, and it also indicates how much interest I have in your responses. Do you need a more detailed explanation?

[pixelthis]

According to the Yamaha website, 6th Avenue IS a Yamaha authorized dealer. They're headquartered in New Jersey.

pixelthis, whenever you see this abbreviation in my posts: STFU, that means it's directed at you, and it also indicates how much interest I have in your responses. Do you need a more detailed explanation?


Does that mean I can't participate in the group hug?
AWWWWW:sleep:


BTW GOOD LUCK on the Yamaha, with their latest probs with quality you'll need it.

[L.J.]

And what problems are you refering to? Could you provide a link please?

[Mr Peabody]

[QUOTE=pixelthis]Does that mean I can't participate in the group hug?
AWWWWW:sleep:

Now that's genuinely funny.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Now that's genuinely funny.
Now you're out too!!!

Wait a minute. Who does that leave? :skep:

[pixelthis]

Now you're out too!!!

Wait a minute. Who does that leave? :skep:

Just you, but you're so in love with yourself that you probably wont notice:1:

[pixelthis]

And what problems are you refering to? Could you provide a link please?

Hang in there, I'll get to it.
First, yammy was my first serious receiver, and a work of art.
BRUSHED ALUMINUM face, wood side panels, 35wpc, loved it.
My next yammy was a rxv 800, had a problem with the digital board, quit when I FIRST GOT IT, then worked for 2 years, then quit again (melted cap on the digital board).
A fluke? Well, I HAVE HEARD on this forum about two guys who had trouble with their yammy, thats why I MENTIONED that, also to play with rich's tiny mind.
But the rxz I had was no great shakes, I never COULD GET THE TUNER TO WORK,
it WORKED but try to figure it out, this from a guy who learned dos in a few days.
It just wasnt a quality product like my first yammy, it was a mass market receiver
like a lot of companies sell to trade on their past glory, like pioneer and a few others.
Just my opinion, but in this entire saga of mr wishy washy trying to pick out almost similar receivers, hes' not mentioned a great resource,mainly the reveiws on this board.
I never buy anything without a quick look at least.
Just a hunch but I think the reviews wont inspire great confidence:1:

[pixelthis]

And you gotta understand, the ONE thing that is key to something like a receiver ,
is longetivity.
Like I said about TV sets, the best "Q" feature about a picture is HAVING A PICTURE.
Same thing about receivers, EXCEPT its sound .
I could have fixed my yammy but it was a good excuse to upgrade, and I wanted out of the brand.
But the MAIN reason I traded was I hate to have a receiver flake out on me, its a HUGH hassel to unplug everything, and to have to live without my sound for up to six weeks while they fix it.
AND ITS A TRUISM IN ELECTRONICS, when something breaks, its a lot more likely to break AGAIN:1:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Hang in there, I'll get to it.
First, yammy was my first serious receiver, and a work of art.
BRUSHED ALUMINUM face, wood side panels, 35wpc, loved it.
My next yammy was a rxv 800, had a problem with the digital board, quit when I FIRST GOT IT, then worked for 2 years, then quit again (melted cap on the digital board).
A fluke? Well, I HAVE HEARD on this forum about two guys who had trouble with their yammy, thats why I MENTIONED that, also to play with rich's tiny mind.
Classic. You can read bad reviews about ANYTHING, but considering only two out of how many reviewers here? Not bad odds IMO.

But the rxz I had was no great shakes, I never COULD GET THE TUNER TO WORK,
Which tuner.. AM or FM? Did you try connecting an antenna to it?

it WORKED but try to figure it out, this from a guy who learned dos in a few days.
Well? Did it work or didn't it work?. Learned DOS in a few days? And you tell me I'm in love with myself?

It just wasnt a quality product like my first yammy, it was a mass market receiver
like a lot of companies sell to trade on their past glory, like pioneer and a few others.
Every company except Integra right?

Just my opinion, but in this entire saga of mr wishy washy trying to pick out almost similar receivers, hes' not mentioned a great resource,mainly the reveiws on this board.
Looks like you're trying to suck up with this one son, and you're contradicting yourself when you say "similar receivers" and then knock the Yamaha. Like I said, you're reputation here is well entrenched.

I never buy anything without a quick look at least.
Just a hunch but I think the reviews wont inspire great confidence:1:
Didn't you say in another thread that you bought your Integra sight-unheard? And, I don't see any documentation or links about Yamaha's quality problems. Just a lot of personal experiences, and knowing you, they're probably mostly operator errors.

[Rich-n-Texas]

And you gotta understand, the ONE thing that is key to something like a receiver ,
is longetivity.
Which will last longer: an Onkyo/Integra that runs hot or a Yamaha that doesn't produce anywhere near the heat?

But the MAIN reason I traded was I hate to have a receiver flake out on me, its a HUGH hassel to unplug everything...
That's H_U_G_E. Huge not HUGH. PS pointed this error out a long time ago, but apparently it still hasn't sunk in. You're so scatter-brained.

and to have to live without my sound for up to six weeks while they fix it.
Wouldn't it be nice if we could live without you for six weeks?

AND ITS A TRUISM IN ELECTRONICS, when something breaks, its a lot more likely to break AGAIN:1:
Especially when the person trying to fix it is clueless. :rolleyes:

[pixelthis]

Rich-n-Texas]Classic. You can read bad reviews about ANYTHING, but considering only two out of how many reviewers here? Not bad odds IMO.
I keep hearing about yamaha, and three bad experiences with the reletively small population is worrisome
Which tuner.. AM or FM? Did you try connecting an antenna to it?
Have to try that next time

Well? Did it work or didn't it work?. Learned DOS in a few days? And you tell me I'm in love with myself?

Yep, and dos was easy compared to using the tuner on my YAMAHA

Every company except Integra right?
Mostly, but a lot of companies get their parts from the same place, and trying to do the same thing their engineering solutions tend to be similar.
Theres only so many ways to do something

Looks like you're trying to suck up with this one son, and you're contradicting yourself when you say "similar receivers" and then knock the Yamaha. Like I said, you're reputation here is well entrenched.
So is yours. AT LEAST I know something about this stuff

Didn't you say in another thread that you bought your Integra sight-unheard? And, I don't see any documentation or links about Yamaha's quality problems. Just a lot of personal experiences, and knowing you, they're probably mostly operator errors.

I listened to an 8.4 for about an hour, and wound up with a 7.4, the main diff was a little more amp power, which I didn't need. It had everything I needed so why shop further?
I dont shop like a woman, unlike some transplanted carpetbaggers.

AND I hope that the "personal" experiences with yammys QC dont turn out to be yours.
Really. But I wouldnt be surprized:1:

[pixelthis]

Rich-n-Texas]Which will last longer: an Onkyo/Integra that runs hot or a Yamaha that doesn't produce anywhere near the heat?

Any modern receiver will produce copious amounts of heat.
Mine has been on just about everyday for going on four years with no problems.
And the frying pan I PUT ON TOP MAKES GOOD SAUSAGES

That's H_U_G_E. Huge not HUGH. PS pointed this error out a long time ago, but apparently it still hasn't sunk in. You're so scatter-brained.
At least I have the brains to spare

Wouldn't it be nice if we could live without you for six weeks?
I have a sinking feeling that you're gonna be so preoccupied with your mail order bride,
and especially when those bare wire connectors short to ground, that you wont even notice me. I'll keep an eye out for any mushrooms coming from Texas

Especially when the person trying to fix it is clueless.
Not so clueless that he would try to fix a modern device without a lot of practice.
But I DID figure out what the problem was, which was easy because it shutoff when ever a digital input was accessed, but not analog, hence a problem with the digital board.
Even more worrisome was that a melted capacitor was the problem, no telling WHAT caused that. And the same designers probably designed yours.
If they havent fallen on their sword yet:prrr:

[Rich-n-Texas]

You need to reconstruct your last two posts before I go any further.

[StevenSurprenant]

Boys, boys, boys...am I going to have to send you to your rooms for time out?

[Rich-n-Texas]

No! Not until after you make me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich! AND I want chocolate milk too!!!

[GMichael]

Chocolate milk?! Are you kidding me? White milk goes so much better with PB&J!
And don't even try to slip me some of that whole wheat crap!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Chocolate milk?! Are you kidding me? White milk goes so much better with PB&J!
Does not!

[GMichael]

Does not!

Does to!

[L.J.]

Wow, so your Yamaha QC issues are based on comments from 2 people :idea:

[audio amateur]

Actually, do you guys know what goes incredibly well with a PB&J sandwish? Orange juice. I promise. Every time I have peanut butter or peanuts now, I crave orange juice. I simply have to have it. Same thing happens with chocolate/brownies/chocolate chip cookies. It simply calls for milk. Lots of it.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Does to!
Does not!

[GMichael]

Does............!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Doesn't!!!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Actually, do you guys know what goes incredibly well with a PB&J sandwish? Orange juice. I promise. Every time I have peanut butter or peanuts now, I crave orange juice. I simply have to have it. Same thing happens with chocolate/brownies/chocolate chip cookies. It simply calls for milk. Lots of it.
Better check your urine AA. You might be pregnant. :yikes:

[Mr Peabody]

[QUOTE=pixelthis
"Theres only so many ways to do something", Pix used to tell his wife.

"You're limp" says Pix's partner, "So is yours. AT LEAST I know something about this stuff".

I took a 8.4" for about an hour, and wound up with a sore bumm, the main diff was a little more amp power, which I didn't need. It had everything I needed so why shop further?
I dont shop for a woman, unlike some transplanted carpetbaggers.

AND I hope that the "personal" experiences with my mommys QC dont turn out to be yours.
Really. But I wouldnt be surprized:1:[/QUOTE]


Nor, would we after you making statements like that :)

[Rich-n-Texas]

Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! Very creative there Mr P. :lol: :thumbsup: I'm going on a green chicklet crusade then come back with a big greenie for you!

[pixelthis]

Nor, would we after you making statements like that :)


talk about MY statements after you print such gibberish.
Not just gibberish but fifth grade gibberish.
Although the fine art of insulting at an adult level is quite beyond you, most likely.

This confirms what I have been thinking, this board is full of 12 year olds:1:

[audio amateur]

Better check your urine AA. You might be pregnant. :yikes:
Surely not:D

[GMichael]

talk about MY statements after you print such gibberish.
Not just gibberish but fifth grade gibberish.
Although the fine art of insulting at an adult level is quite beyond you, most likely.

This confirms what I have been thinking, this board is full of 12 year olds:1:

Tap tap tap... Hey, is this thing on?

Hey Pixie. He was mocking you.

The end.

[Mr Peabody]

Pix it seems the 5th grade level is the only level you can comprehend, if that, don't give yourself too much credit.

[pixelthis]

Tap tap tap... Hey, is this thing on?

Hey Pixie. He was mocking you.

The end.

YES, and doing a piss poor job.
MR P could do better.

The REAL mocking is to get insulted by a ninny who can't do the job right:1:

[pixelthis]

Pix it seems the 5th grade level is the only level you can comprehend, if that, don't give yourself too much credit.

OH wow!
That really hurt, coming from someone who doesnt even understand fifth grade science
class. My feelings are really hurt!
GOT me where ya want me now! Oh no!:1:

[pixelthis]

Pix it seems the 5th grade level is the only level you can comprehend, if that, don't give yourself too much credit.


You know, I am really getting tired of a know nothing like you who doesnt
know a S.E.T from a F.E.T talking down to me.

IF the "fifth grade level" is the best I can do, then I STILL HAVE ATTAINED HEIGHTS YOU CAN NEVER HOPE TO ASPIRE TO.
Now go back to playing with your power cords.:1:

[Mr Peabody]

You know, I really enjoy a highly intelligent person like you Mr P who
know a S.E.T from a F.E.T talking to me.

IF the "fifth grade level" is the best I can do, then I STILL HAVE HEIGHTS I CAN NEVER HOPE TO ASPIRE TO.
Now go back to playing with your power cords.:1:

Sorry, this is what I meant to say. Pix

[Mr Peabody]

YES, and doing a wonderful job.
MR P could do even better.

The REAL mocking is to get insulted by a brilliant person who can do the job right:1:

Thanks for the kind words

[Rich-n-Texas]

You know, I am really getting tired of a know nothing like you who doesnt
know a S.E.T from a F.E.T talking down to me.

IF the "fifth grade level" is the best I can do, then I STILL HAVE ATTAINED HEIGHTS YOU CAN NEVER HOPE TO ASPIRE TO.
Now go back to playing with your power cords.:1:
Why are you getting so upset? He was only kidding. Don't get your panties in a wad.

You know what they say... "What goes around, comes around", right?:ciappa:

[Mr Peabody]

Pix really wants to be like me when he grows up. He gets upset when he falls so short. But it's nothing a lot of therapy and study couldn't help. Lashing out mindlessly is the only way he knows to vent his frustrations. Like babies only know to cry when they need something. So maybe he will seek the therapy and study up on the issues we tried to correct him on. It's odd how he puts so much effort into posting babble but fails to accept the teachings of others. It's not like I expect him to take my word, I provide him links to other sources, as others have tried, but he would rather spew his babble and remain ignorant.

[pixelthis]

Pix really wants to be like me when he grows up. He gets upset when he falls so short. But it's nothing a lot of therapy and study couldn't help. Lashing out mindlessly is the only way he knows to vent his frustrations. Like babies only know to cry when they need something. So maybe he will seek the therapy and study up on the issues we tried to correct him on. It's odd how he puts so much effort into posting babble but fails to accept the teachings of others. It's not like I expect him to take my word, I provide him links to other sources, as others have tried, but he would rather spew his babble and remain ignorant.


YOU HAVE NOTHING TO "TEACH ME" IDIOT.
You cant even create your own insults, you have to change someone elses posts.
Change another one of my posts like you have the last four times and I am complaining to the moderator.
I don't alter what you say no matter how stupid it is, do me the same courtesy.

This type of juvenile behaviour convinces me that you really are a twelve year old that needs to do a lot of growing up.
AND if you arent a twelve year old... THEN GOD HELP YOU.:1:

[pixelthis]

Thanks for the kind words


THEY ARENT "MY" words , nimrod, they're yours.
Misquoting someone is the last refuge of a scoundrel, and the result of a very immature
personality.
I was a law officer for two decades, and in profiling class this was the behaviour of
your typical juvenile delinquent.
other posts of yours point to your immaturity.
And to think I used to think of you as a friend, hell, you're nothing but a child.
If not in age then in personality.
Cheer up, maybe your folks will get you an Ipod for your birthday:ciappa:

[Mr Peabody]

Oooooooo..... you're going to tell on me, how mature is that? If you can't take it then keep your comments to yourself.

[Mr Peabody]

THEY ARE "MY" words , O'Great One, they're so true.
Misquoting someone is the last refuge of a scoundrel, and the result of a very immature
personality.

*Then you should refrain from that practice.
I was a Meter Maid for two decades, and in profiling class this was the behaviour of
your typical fun loving genious.
other posts of yours Mr P point to your utter brilliance.
And to think I think of you as a friend, hell, you're nothing short of my idol.
:ciappa:

Thanks, I think, but you are wierding me out a bit.

[GMichael]

Thanks, I think, but you are wierding me out a bit.

Careful. He may tell mommy and daddy.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Mommy = JM?
Daddy = E-stat?

:biggrin5:

j/k JM. :smilewinkgrin:

[pixelthis]

Thanks, but I am a wierd little peckerhead who needs to come out a bit. And I don't understand english too well


Thats allright, talk to your boyfriend about it, maybe he can help:1:

[Mr Peabody]

Very good Pix, I'm proud of you. I had lost all hope you could learn anything.

[pixelthis]

Very good Pix, I'm proud of you. I had lost all hope you could learn anything.

Just an example of how sad you are.
Learn anything? I quit doing this juvenile crap when I was 13,
LIKE MOST PEOPLE:1:

[StevenSurprenant]

Okay boys, that's enough! Funs over!

You guys gotta be getting tired of this by now.

Shake hands and let's get back to this audio thingy...

[Rich-n-Texas]

:lol: Keep throwing it at the wall Steven. Eventually it SHOULD stick.

[GMichael]

Hey Rich,

Did you get that second shipment yet. What's the story?

[Rich-n-Texas]

It's been a very stressfull situation GM. After I refused the delivery, I was keeping tabs on the return process to see when I'd get a tracking number for the replacement. 6ave won't send a new receiver until they've gotten the refused unit back, and it seems DHL is dragging its feet. I just got off the phone with 6ave; they called DHL while I was on hold and the DHL rep told the 6ave CS rep that the box was sent back Friday, but a tracking number has yet to be generated. I questioned the fact that DHL would send something without including a tracking number. The 6ave rep agreed and told me she asked the DHL rep why, but all she was told was that a tracker would be sent later on today.

I'm trying to be patient about this situation but #1, it's been just about a week since I refused the first box, and #2, my credit card has already been charged. Two facts that I made 6ave very well aware of. The thing is, it's not likely I'd be able to get a deal like this one anywhere else so all I can do is keep my fingers crossed and hope for the best. It's not looking like I'll have the new one by the weekend unless 6ave is kind enough to ship it overnight. This is also holding me up from finishing the house wiring because I want to take care of all of that in one weekend instead of continuing with my current receiver and then re-connecting the new one.

It remains to be seen just how well 6ave takes care of its customers, but it's not likely I'll ever buy from them again unless they change shippers. There's no doubt in my mind that DHL truely is the bottom feeder of shipping companies.

[GMichael]

Sorry to read this Tex. May your luck change soon.
By the way. You'll never become an audiophile buying crappy receivers.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Sorry to read this Tex. May your luck change soon.
By the way. You'll never become an audiophile buying crappy receivers.
:mad: :mad5: :incazzato: :mad2:

[GMichael]

:mad: :mad5: :incazzato: :mad2:
Don't give yourself a headache. Your crappy receiver is still a couple models newer than my crappy receiver. But for some reason, I don't mind.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Like the man says...

CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP! :thumbsup:

[Mr Peabody]

Just an example of how sad I am.
Learn anything? I quit doing this juvenile learning when I was 3,
LIKE MOST OTHER MORONS:1:

Leave Pixel you are a plague. You only live to disrupt.

[Mr Peabody]

Okay boys, that's enough! Funs over!

You guys gotta be getting tired of this by now.

Shake hands and let's get back to this audio thingy...

I can appreciate your trying to help but you are relatively new here and will soon see that Pixel is a Troll of the enth degree and has mucked up a many threads with ignorance. When others post valid links to infromation in an attempt to teach him anything he remains in his ignorance and continues to spew his misinformation around. There aren't many members left that he hasn't gotten into some conflict with. I'm not sure why if we have moderators they continue to allow him here. He has no positive or informative input to offer, and in fact, his misinformation could cause a unsuspecting poster damage. When some one with knowledge corrects him and shows proof of their position he results to flame wars sticking to his obvious wrong and ignorant stance.

Now, if I have said ANYTHING untrue about Pixel here I want to be corrected. Anyone in his defense please, let me have it.

[pixelthis]

I can appreciate your trying to help but you are relatively new here and will soon see that Pixel is a Troll of the enth degree and has mucked up a many threads with ignorance. When others post valid links to infromation in an attempt to teach him anything he remains in his ignorance and continues to spew his misinformation around. There aren't many members left that he hasn't gotten into some conflict with. I'm not sure why if we have moderators they continue to allow him here. He has no positive or informative input to offer, and in fact, his misinformation could cause a unsuspecting poster damage. When some one with knowledge corrects him and shows proof of their position he results to flame wars sticking to his obvious wrong and ignorant stance.

Now, if I have said ANYTHING untrue about Pixel here I want to be corrected. Anyone in his defense please, let me have it.

Well, just about everything.
The only reason I hang around here is to correct the vast amout of misinfo and just plain lies and nonsense on this board, I am just trying to keep the casual visitor from
being misinformed by the silly nimrods on this site, of which YOU are chief nimrod numero uno.

You take MY posts, change the words, and try to misrepresent it as something I
said, in other words you are deliberatly trying to put words in my mouth, which is about the worst thing I HAVE SEEN ANYBODY DO anywhere.
Have you apologised? Nope, and I dont expect a ignorant boor like you to do so, you don't even understand the gravity of this.
But then again you don't understand much of anything, really.
However in the arrogance department , well you have THAT down pat.
teach ME anything? Thats rich.
The opposite is true, I have fourty years of experience and three years in electronics
and you're gonna TEACH me, thats RICH.
Try to tell you something and it doesnt fit into the nonsense you have stuck in your otherwise empty head and like a ignorant hillbilly faced with the theory of evolution you just start insulting the teacher.
You don't even know about basic tools of electronics, and while my knowledge is a bit dated its miles ahead of ANYTHING you will ever know, doesnt stop you from arguing about stuff you know ABSOLUTELY nothing about, like hetrodyning, the functions and characteristics of various cables, basic electronics history, etc.
Which would be fine if you would stick to what you know.
Oh wait, then you couldn't post ANYTHING:1:

[StevenSurprenant]

Mr. Peabody,

Actually, I have been coming to this site for many many years and I also have been accosted by trolls. Like you, I tried to reason with these people but the arguments never ceased so I left for a very long time. I then got involved in a political site called e-thepeople and they had their share of trolls there. If fact, that site was plagued with them. I finally gave up on that site too. My love for audio never ceased and so I came back here.

What I've discovered is that we all have taken different paths and have formed our conclusions of this hobby according to preferences and our experiences. I've had so many people tell me that Bose was high end and I just shrug my shoulders and walk away. I don't want to hurt their feelings so I keep silent. I spent many years traveling between the Midwest to the east coast just to listen to the best equipment that was available and formed many opinions about audio. I have learned that equipment matching is very important for synergy. I have heard systems with all Stereophile A+ rated equipment sound uneventful and rather boring, and have heard some of the same components in different systems that totally blew my socks off.

The most important thing I have learned is that many people have a very high opinion of their system even when much better is available. I had one person tell me that my Quad ESL/Levinson system sounded almost as good as his Bose system. I suppose that in his mind that was true. I had no reason to be upset with him because it was just his opinion and perhaps he preferred Bose. In the end, it's all a matter of taste.

As for Pixelthis, I'm sure you are a very smart man and know more about many areas of audio and electronics than I, but (and this is a big but) you insist that people accept your opinion as the only opinion of value. I'm not being mean to you. This is just what I see as the reason for all this negativity toward your posts. You see your opinions as fact and there-in lies the problem. I suppose that in your mind they are facts, but there are very few facts in audio. If I heard your system, I could say that my system is better than your system and you could, in turn, say that yours is better than mine. Both statements could be true, but only in our own minds. Do you get the point?

Besides, you keep arguing with these people and you will never win. There are no winners in this kind of thing. You are being played and don't seem to realize it.

My experience with trolls, and I am not saying that you are one, is that they always have to have the final word. There has to be a point where one person or the other has to realize that nothing is being accomplished and decide to end this. Cowboy up, as they say!

Just so you know, I am not picking sides in this. There are no sides to pick. All there seems to be is a silly argument which has been reduced to name calling and insults to ones intelligence.

I really don't know why I posted this because it probably won't change a thing. I guess that I shouldn't care except that audioreview keeps sending me emails to let me know that there are new posts in this thread and I keep reading them.

Anyhow, I wish the best to everyone.

I suppose that I'll get blasted for this post, but that's okay. No good deed goes unpunished.

[GMichael]

Mr. Peabody,

Actually, I have been coming to this site for many many years and I also have been accosted by trolls. Like you, I tried to reason with these people but the arguments never ceased so I left for a very long time. I then got involved in a political site called e-thepeople and they had their share of trolls there. If fact, that site was plagued with them. I finally gave up on that site too. My love for audio never ceased and so I came back here.

What I've discovered is that we all have taken different paths and have formed our conclusions of this hobby according to preferences and our experiences. I've had so many people tell me that Bose was high end and I just shrug my shoulders and walk away. I don't want to hurt their feelings so I keep silent. I spent many years traveling between the Midwest to the east coast just to listen to the best equipment that was available and formed many opinions about audio. I have learned that equipment matching is very important for synergy. I have heard systems with all Stereophile A+ rated equipment sound uneventful and rather boring, and have heard some of the same components in different systems that totally blew my socks off.

The most important thing I have learned is that many people have a very high opinion of their system even when much better is available. I had one person tell me that my Quad ESL/Levinson system sounded almost as good as his Bose system. I suppose that in his mind that was true. I had no reason to be upset with him because it was just his opinion and perhaps he preferred Bose. In the end, it's all a matter of taste.

As for Pixelthis, I'm sure you are a very smart man and know more about many areas of audio and electronics than I, but (and this is a big but) you insist that people accept your opinion as the only opinion of value. I'm not being mean to you. This is just what I see as the reason for all this negativity toward your posts. You see your opinions as fact and there-in lies the problem. I suppose that in your mind they are facts, but there are very few facts in audio. If I heard your system, I could say that my system is better than your system and you could, in turn, say that yours is better than mine. Both statements could be true, but only in our own minds. Do you get the point?

Besides, you keep arguing with these people and you will never win. There are no winners in this kind of thing. You are being played and don't seem to realize it.

My experience with trolls, and I am not saying that you are one, is that they always have to have the final word. There has to be a point where one person or the other has to realize that nothing is being accomplished and decide to end this. Cowboy up, as they say!

Just so you know, I am not picking sides in this. There are no sides to pick. All there seems to be is a silly argument which has been reduced to name calling and insults to ones intelligence.

I really don't know why I posted this because it probably won't change a thing. I guess that I shouldn't care except that audioreview keeps sending me emails to let me know that there are new posts in this thread and I keep reading them.

Anyhow, I wish the best to everyone.

I suppose that I'll get blasted for this post, but that's okay. No good deed goes unpunished.

How dare you come here and make sense? Oops. Sorry. Just having fun. All good points you have there.
Now, do me. Do me. And don't forget to be just as kind this time.

[pixelthis]

Mr. Peabody,

Actually, I have been coming to this site for many many years and I also have been accosted by trolls. Like you, I tried to reason with these people but the arguments never ceased so I left for a very long time. I then got involved in a political site called e-thepeople and they had their share of trolls there. If fact, that site was plagued with them. I finally gave up on that site too. My love for audio never ceased and so I came back here.

What I've discovered is that we all have taken different paths and have formed our conclusions of this hobby according to preferences and our experiences. I've had so many people tell me that Bose was high end and I just shrug my shoulders and walk away. I don't want to hurt their feelings so I keep silent. I spent many years traveling between the Midwest to the east coast just to listen to the best equipment that was available and formed many opinions about audio. I have learned that equipment matching is very important for synergy. I have heard systems with all Stereophile A+ rated equipment sound uneventful and rather boring, and have heard some of the same components in different systems that totally blew my socks off.

The most important thing I have learned is that many people have a very high opinion of their system even when much better is available. I had one person tell me that my Quad ESL/Levinson system sounded almost as good as his Bose system. I suppose that in his mind that was true. I had no reason to be upset with him because it was just his opinion and perhaps he preferred Bose. In the end, it's all a matter of taste.

As for Pixelthis, I'm sure you are a very smart man and know more about many areas of audio and electronics than I, but (and this is a big but) you insist that people accept your opinion as the only opinion of value. I'm not being mean to you. This is just what I see as the reason for all this negativity toward your posts. You see your opinions as fact and there-in lies the problem. I suppose that in your mind they are facts, but there are very few facts in audio. If I heard your system, I could say that my system is better than your system and you could, in turn, say that yours is better than mine. Both statements could be true, but only in our own minds. Do you get the point?

Besides, you keep arguing with these people and you will never win. There are no winners in this kind of thing. You are being played and don't seem to realize it.

My experience with trolls, and I am not saying that you are one, is that they always have to have the final word. There has to be a point where one person or the other has to realize that nothing is being accomplished and decide to end this. Cowboy up, as they say!

Just so you know, I am not picking sides in this. There are no sides to pick. All there seems to be is a silly argument which has been reduced to name calling and insults to ones intelligence.

I really don't know why I posted this because it probably won't change a thing. I guess that I shouldn't care except that audioreview keeps sending me emails to let me know that there are new posts in this thread and I keep reading them.

Anyhow, I wish the best to everyone.

I suppose that I'll get blasted for this post, but that's okay. No good deed goes unpunished.


okay , you start off in left field and go farther and farther astray with each word you type.
For one thing, you're wishy washy, sorry, but thats just a fact.
True my opinion is only my opinion, but a FACT is a FACT, nimrod.
There are basic theories of electronics, they are used even tho they are theories
because they WORK, so they will be accepted as FACT until proven otherwise.
What mr penis had trouble with was when I explained a basic principle of electronics which has always fascinated me, mainly that when you add two freqs together you get the difference, if they are the same they cancel each other out.
This is called hetrodyning and used to be used in radio, nowadays its used in noise canceling headphones.
So he said I didnt know what I was talking about. when I learned this in SCHOOL,
and then went on to say that Bose INVENTED noise canceling headphones
(he ripped the idea off from much greater men) and it went downhill from there.
Now in your post hippie relatavistic world of "cant we all get along" there are a
few FACTS of nature that are FACTS, they arent open to opinion, yours, mine, or mr P.
As for being Played by the nimrods that inhabit this site, thats really funny, I am the one whos Playing THEM.
I get a little truth out, if one poor guy with no funds trying to put a little something together
to listen to doesnt waste his time on BS like "hot cables" and power cords, and
tube amps that were obsolete in 1934, then I will be happy.
People like mr pissant you will NEVER have an influence on thats true, he will never acknowledge anything outside his narrow world view, which is fine, he should stick to
obscure crap equipment that a first year engineering student could build and other stuff that is in his limited range of knowledge, thats all I am saying.
My knowledge is sometimes a bit dated, and I HAVE LEARNED a lot on this board,
difference between mr penis and myself is if I dont know something I will admit it, he'll
try to bluff his way through, usually embarassing himself.
Which is fine, but he winds up misinforming others:1:

[GMichael]

okay , you start off in left field and go farther and farther astray with each word you type.
For one thing, you're wishy washy, sorry, but thats just a fact.
True my opinion is only my opinion, but a FACT is a FACT, nimrod.
There are basic theories of electronics, they are used even tho they are theories
because they WORK, so they will be accepted as FACT until proven otherwise.
What mr penis had trouble with was when I explained a basic principle of electronics which has always fascinated me, mainly that when you add two freqs together you get the difference, if they are the same they cancel each other out.
This is called hetrodyning and used to be used in radio, nowadays its used in noise canceling headphones.
So he said I didnt know what I was talking about. when I learned this in SCHOOL,
and then went on to say that Bose INVENTED noise canceling headphones
(he ripped the idea off from much greater men) and it went downhill from there.
Now in your post hippie relatavistic world of "cant we all get along" there are a
few FACTS of nature that are FACTS, they arent open to opinion, yours, mine, or mr P.
As for being Played by the nimrods that inhabit this site, thats really funny, I am the one whos Playing THEM.
I get a little truth out, if one poor guy with no funds trying to put a little something together
to listen to doesnt waste his time on BS like "hot cables" and power cords, and
tube amps that were obsolete in 1934, then I will be happy.
People like mr pissant you will NEVER have an influence on thats true, he will never acknowledge anything outside his narrow world view, which is fine, he should stick to
obscure crap equipment that a first year engineering student could build and other stuff that is in his limited range of knowledge, thats all I am saying.
My knowledge is sometimes a bit dated, and I HAVE LEARNED a lot on this board,
difference between mr penis and myself is if I dont know something I will admit it, he'll
try to bluff his way through, usually embarassing himself.
Which is fine, but he winds up misinforming others:1:

Tisk tisk tisk. And you were doing so well. This sir is a major setback for you. Take a timeout and don't play with the wallpaper this time.

[StevenSurprenant]

okay , you start off in left field and go farther and farther astray with each word you type.
For one thing, you're wishy washy, sorry, but thats just a fact.
True my opinion is only my opinion, but a FACT is a FACT, nimrod.
There are basic theories of electronics, they are used even tho they are theories
because they WORK, so they will be accepted as FACT until proven otherwise.
What mr penis had trouble with was when I explained a basic principle of electronics which has always fascinated me, mainly that when you add two freqs together you get the difference, if they are the same they cancel each other out.
This is called hetrodyning and used to be used in radio, nowadays its used in noise canceling headphones.
So he said I didnt know what I was talking about. when I learned this in SCHOOL,
and then went on to say that Bose INVENTED noise canceling headphones
(he ripped the idea off from much greater men) and it went downhill from there.
Now in your post hippie relatavistic world of "cant we all get along" there are a
few FACTS of nature that are FACTS, they arent open to opinion, yours, mine, or mr P.
As for being Played by the nimrods that inhabit this site, thats really funny, I am the one whos Playing THEM.
I get a little truth out, if one poor guy with no funds trying to put a little something together
to listen to doesnt waste his time on BS like "hot cables" and power cords, and
tube amps that were obsolete in 1934, then I will be happy.
People like mr pissant you will NEVER have an influence on thats true, he will never acknowledge anything outside his narrow world view, which is fine, he should stick to
obscure crap equipment that a first year engineering student could build and other stuff that is in his limited range of knowledge, thats all I am saying.
My knowledge is sometimes a bit dated, and I HAVE LEARNED a lot on this board,
difference between mr penis and myself is if I dont know something I will admit it, he'll
try to bluff his way through, usually embarassing himself.
Which is fine, but he winds up misinforming others:1:

You are a funny man Pixilthis...

Hetrodyning is a simple concept, but you made a mistake...

You said. "when you add two freqs together you get the difference, if they are the same they cancel each other out."

I'm sure you meant to say that if they are the same, but one of them is 180 degrees out of phase in relation to the other, they will cancel each other out.

I'm sure that you also know that this concept of overlapping frequencies occurs when sound from our speakers reaches us directly and then from bouncing off the walls, thereby distorting the purity of sound reaching our ears. This is the reason why room treatment works so well. It reduces the reflections which causes less hetrodyning to occur. Of course we don't call it hetrodyning, but the concept is the same. The terminology we normally use is, picket fencing, peaks and nulls, standing waves, and so on.

Yes, there are facts that aren't open to interpretation.

There are also facts that aren't so clear cut, such as the effect of cables on the sound. There is nothing in electronics (to my knowledge) that could explain why we hear differences between cables, but I hear it very clearly. I'm sure that in time, someone much smarter than me will figure this out. Till then, I will continue to believe as I do and just between you and me, I resent people telling me otherwise. I've already been down that path and have heard all the arguments. Actually, I don't resent people telling me that wire is wire, I just resent having it crammed down my throat. I don't dispute the facts, I just say that we don't have enough information or that we are not performing the correct tests. It could be something as simple as wave reflections causing interference patterns in the signal?

Perhaps you are trying to help people, but do they want to be helped?

[Rich-n-Texas]

...peaks and nulls, standing waves, and so on.
I hate those terms! I hate 'em I hate 'em I hate 'em!!!

I hate "room modes" too! :incazzato:

[L.J.]

Rich, what's the latest word on the Yammie?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Still waiting for 6ave to receive and process my rejected shipment. I'm hoping to see a new shipment notification and tracking number in my Inbox tomorrow. This will be the third weekend I haven't been able to finish up the living room because of this delay.

A very frustrating experience.

[L.J.]

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8371558&type=product&id=1184768736682

Kinda late to bring it up, but if things don't work out with the Yammie for some weird reason, I saw this Elite on sale through Digital Bits for $1187.

[pixelthis]

Tisk tisk tisk. And you were doing so well. This sir is a major setback for you. Take a timeout and don't play with the wallpaper this time.

YOU take a timeout and stop playing with yourself.
AND you can keep your codescending BS to yourself.
We all "get it", you are so much more superior to us mere mortals.
At least the ones under the age of 5 or so:1:

[pixelthis]

You are a funny man Pixilthis...

Hetrodyning is a simple concept, but you made a mistake...

You said. "when you add two freqs together you get the difference, if they are the same they cancel each other out."

I'm sure you meant to say that if they are the same, but one of them is 180 degrees out of phase in relation to the other, they will cancel each other out.

I'm sure that you also know that this concept of overlapping frequencies occurs when sound from our speakers reaches us directly and then from bouncing off the walls, thereby distorting the purity of sound reaching our ears. This is the reason why room treatment works so well. It reduces the reflections which causes less hetrodyning to occur. Of course we don't call it hetrodyning, but the concept is the same. The terminology we normally use is, picket fencing, peaks and nulls, standing waves, and so on.

Yes, there are facts that aren't open to interpretation.

There are also facts that aren't so clear cut, such as the effect of cables on the sound. There is nothing in electronics (to my knowledge) that could explain why we hear differences between cables, but I hear it very clearly. I'm sure that in time, someone much smarter than me will figure this out. Till then, I will continue to believe as I do and just between you and me, I resent people telling me otherwise. I've already been down that path and have heard all the arguments. Actually, I don't resent people telling me that wire is wire, I just resent having it crammed down my throat. I don't dispute the facts, I just say that we don't have enough information or that we are not performing the correct tests. It could be something as simple as wave reflections causing interference patterns in the signal?

Perhaps you are trying to help people, but do they want to be helped?

If they dont want to they can ignore me.
As for the "difference" between cables there are those who can explain why some hear a difference between cables.
They're called psychologists.
And they will tell you that the human mind has a marvelous ability to delude itself.
A cable needs to be decent, gold plate, properly insulated, and the proper guage, thats it.
No one has ever been able to tell the difference between esoteric cables in a double blind test, because there IS no difference.
But I am not a religious nut about it, expensive cables to me are like the "dubs" on a ghetto cruiser, they look nice and hurt no one, and its your money.
But I am not going to tell a newbie that they are needed, because they arent:1:

As for "phase" that doesny matter in a circuit, and sometimes doesnt matter with sound,
anyway I was just trying to cover the basics, but I STILL havent convinced mr pee pee
that hetrodyning is anything but my imagination:1:

[GMichael]

YOU take a timeout and stop playing with yourself.
AND you can keep your codescending BS to yourself.
We all "get it", you are so much more superior to us mere mortals.
At least the ones under the age of 5 or so:1:

Who's the we in "we all get it?" You seem to be the only one who thinks that I'm so superior. (this was a joke if you didn't get it) Everyone else here seems to see me as the jokester I am. I struggle every day to understand half of what people write on this forum. But at least I'm trying to learn instead of closing my mind to anyone who doesn't agree with every word I type.
Now play nice.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Who's the we in "we all get it?" You seem to be the only one who thinks that I'm so superior. (this was a joke if you didn't get it) Everyone else here seems to see me as the jokester I am. I struggle every day to understand half of what people write on this forum. But at least I'm trying to learn instead of closing my mind to anyone who doesn't agree with every word I type.
Now play nice.
You're light years ahead of me GM!

[GMichael]

You're light years ahead of me GM!

Only in your mind. There are so many people here that know 100x more than I do. Funny how those are the people Pix fights with the most. Except for the ones who just hang out to read and never post. They've grown tired of the fight but still get a laugh out of us peons. They are like the Vorlons keeping an eye on us but not getting involved.

Hey out there! I see you!

[Mr Peabody]

Super hetrodyning is an old tuner technique that has nothing to do with our original debate. Even Steven told you the same thing I did. To say phase has nothing to do with sound is wrong and shows you don't even know anything about the basics of electronics or sound. If we follow your logic that like frequencies cancel we'd hear nothing when we turn our stereo on. Pix your willingness to remain stupid is really beyond comprehension. Your argument is not only wrong it is simply not logical in it's concept. Before you post again you should really try to think about all the examples of how like frequencies are used and how what you say just can not remotely be true. While your at it read about hetrodyning again. The frequency spectrum is quite broad and hetrodyning isn't even close to sound frequencies and really has nothing to do with cancelling.

Steven let me apologize for Pix's attack and hope you don't let him run you off. At least if we have enough people who know about the hobby and have experience here we can still maintain some level of dialogue. If everyone runs from Trolls like Pix then, they win, and the board loses.

[Mr Peabody]

Who's the we in "we all get it?" You seem to be the only one who thinks that I'm so superior. (this was a joke if you didn't get it) Everyone else here seems to see me as the jokester I am. I struggle every day to understand half of what people write on this forum. But at least I'm trying to learn instead of closing my mind to anyone who doesn't agree with every word I type.
Now play nice.

Not so fast ol' mighty one.
Master G..... we're not worthy! We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

[GMichael]

Not so fast ol' mighty one.
Master G..... we're not worthy! We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

That's Mr Gator to you sir.

[Mr Peabody]

Is that Mr. Master Gator or Master Mr. Gator? Siar

[GMichael]

Is that Mr. Master Gator or Master Mr. Gator? Siar

Just, "Mastergator" will do.
Tanx

[Rich-n-Texas]

:rolleyes:

[GMichael]

Hey Rich,

I see you hit 2K recently. How does it feel? Are we having another party?

[Mr Peabody]

We'd better not slur our speech as we call you "Master Gator".

[GMichael]

We'd better not slur our speech as we call you "Master Gator".

Why not?
What do you mean?:idea:

[L.J.]

Wow Rich is gonna pass me up soon.

http://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/party.gifhttp://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/party(1).gif..........http://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/hyper.gifhttp://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/excited.gif

[GMichael]

Wow Rich is gonna pass me up soon.

http://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/party.gifhttp://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/party(1).gif..........http://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/hyper.gifhttp://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/excited.gif

Are you putting on the steaks?

[L.J.]

Are you putting on the steaks?

No but I will be getting tipsy http://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/expressive/drunk.gif

[Mr Peabody]

Why not?
What do you mean?:idea:

Surely, you are just toying with me, siar. Mastergbator

[Rich-n-Texas]

No but I will be getting tipsy http://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/expressive/drunk.gif
I'm kicking you out of my sandbox! LEAVE!!! :mad5:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Wow Rich is gonna pass me up soon.

http://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/party.gifhttp://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/party(1).gif..........http://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/hyper.gifhttp://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/balloons/excited.gif
I passed you up a long time ago... Yer not my type. :ciappa:

[GMichael]

Surely, you are just toying with me, siar. Mastergbator

Yup.,,,

[L.J.]

Dude, just quote one of his posts. Bingo, there's the website he's getting them from. :17:

Geez GM, you just ruined all my fun http://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/expressive/censored.gif

[GMichael]

Geez GM, you just ruined all my fun http://www.clipart.co.uk/clipart/mazeguy/expressive/censored.gif

What do you mean?

[L.J.]

What do you mean?

Trying to see hw long it would take him to figure it out :idea:

Sorry Rich :lol:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Too late boneheads, I already saw GM's post. Only problem is, quoting L.J.'s post didn't show me a link. Must have to turn something on somewhere to enable viewing of links.

Maybe somebody can tell me how, since I AM now in 2K territory. :yesnod:

[Rich-n-Texas]

Hey Rich,

I see you hit 2K recently.
Thanks for noticing GM.

How does it feel?
Don't know. I've been sick for the past two weeks. :cryin:

Are we having another party?
Naa. To tell you the truth, 2K doesn't really seem to be that big a deal to me. I mean, anytime's a good time to have a party but I think that when people here reach the 5K plateau, that's a much more meaningful milestone.

Anyway, can somebody pass the Nyquil? :ihih:

[StevenSurprenant]

Steven let me apologize for Pix's attack and hope you don't let him run you off. At least if we have enough people who know about the hobby and have experience here we can still maintain some level of dialogue. If everyone runs from Trolls like Pix then, they win, and the board loses.

Thanks for the concern, that makes me feel good to know that you consider me a valued member of this board.

Pixelthis is really no concern to me. He gets picked on quite a lot and so I decided to search his posts and see if I could figure out where he was coming from. One thing for sure, he is an enthuthiast. He reminds me of my cousin. My cousin reads a great deal and knows a little about many things, but not a lot about any one thing. In fact, my cousin pronounces impedance "impotence". Makes me laugh every time, but I tried to correct him. He never seemed to get it. In so many ways, Pixelthis reminds me of my cousin. Let me explain.

My cousin will argue for the sake of argument. I don't mind arguing, but not when the topic of discussion is side tracked for the sake of minor points.

For instance:

I might say, "Magenpan is a very good speaker"

He would reply, "How do you know it's a very good speaker""

I reply, "Because it sounds good"

Him: "What are you comparing it to"

Me: "I've heard many very expensive speakers and these have many of the same qualities"

Him: "How do you know the expensive speakers sound good"?

Then I might describe some of the qualities the I hear in quailty speakers and then...

He replies: "Well my Polk speakers have those qualities"

Me: "It's not in the same league"

Him: "What is your definition of "the same league"?

This could go on all day...

You get the point...

I could probably get away with saying that Magnepans are speakers, but he might say, "They don't look like speakers, how do you know they are speakers"?

Whew! Talk about frustration...

[Mr Peabody]

Yeah, who's on first.....

[Rich-n-Texas]

Oh brother. Here we go again.:mad2:

[Mr Peabody]

Oh brother. Here we go again.:mad2:

What are you talking about?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Who's on first... what's on second... right?

Just being sarcastic.

[pixelthis]

Thanks for the concern, that makes me feel good to know that you consider me a valued member of this board.

Pixelthis is really no concern to me. He gets picked on quite a lot and so I decided to search his posts and see if I could figure out where he was coming from. One thing for sure, he is an enthuthiast. He reminds me of my cousin. My cousin reads a great deal and knows a little about many things, but not a lot about any one thing. In fact, my cousin pronounces impedance "impotence". Makes me laugh every time, but I tried to correct him. He never seemed to get it. In so many ways, Pixelthis reminds me of my cousin. Let me explain.

My cousin will argue for the sake of argument. I don't mind arguing, but not when the topic of discussion is side tracked for the sake of minor points.

For instance:

I might say, "Magenpan is a very good speaker"

He would reply, "How do you know it's a very good speaker""

I reply, "Because it sounds good"

Him: "What are you comparing it to"

Me: "I've heard many very expensive speakers and these have many of the same qualities"

Him: "How do you know the expensive speakers sound good"?

Then I might describe some of the qualities the I hear in quailty speakers and then...

He replies: "Well my Polk speakers have those qualities"

Me: "It's not in the same league"

Him: "What is your definition of "the same league"?

This could go on all day...

You get the point...

I could probably get away with saying that Magnepans are speakers, but he might say, "They don't look like speakers, how do you know they are speakers"?

Whew! Talk about frustration...



I don't argue for the sake of arguing, I argue for the sake of the TRUTH, which is in short supply on this board.
Your cousin doesnt seem anything like me, however he seems a great deal like you.

SWIMMING IN THE SHALLOW END OF THE GENE POOL.
One things foor sure, if hes arguing with you about Magnepans he can't be too bad.
As sorry as polks are, they (and just about anything else) beat these gimicky speakers:1:

[pixelthis]

And dont be too impressed by Mr P welcoming you to this board, you'll soon find out that hes' a 12 year old boy trying to act a lot older than he actually is, either that or hes' incredibly immature:1:

[StevenSurprenant]

And dont be too impressed by Mr P welcoming you to this board, you'll soon find out that hes' a 12 year old boy trying to act a lot older than he actually is, either that or hes' incredibly immature:1:


There is a restaurant in Chicago called Debevic's where all the employees take each and every opportunity to insult you. That is part of their job description and people pay to have them do this. Of course we all think its fun and funny.

You've missed your calling in life. if you know what I mean...

Here you are giving away your trade for free.

If you don't have a Debevic's in your area, you should start your own. You would be very good at it.

You have the ability to insult people and make them laugh at the same time.

The other guys were right, "you are a lot of fun". I'm serious about this...LOL

Of course, if you got a job, you would not be able to spend as much time posting here and that would be sad. You would be missed.

By the way I was looking at your equipment list in your personal information and now I understand why you can't relate to people with hi-end stuff.

vizio l37
klipsch set of rb speakers
integra 7.4 receiver
samsung 840
sony dvd recorder
homebuilt pc/ server
technics turntable from 80s
sony 300 cd changer
monster cable

You are like a Chevrolet Chevette owner attending a Corvette rally.

I'm not really insulting your choice of equipment, they are okay for what they are, but if this is your reference for discussing high end then that explains everything.

Your turn Pixel ( or should I say, Debevic?).

Have fun and let me have it!

Seriously, you are a teenager, aren't you?

There is one thing I would like to know about. Your home built computer.

What motherboard are you using and what processor.
What video card?
What power supply?
What type of RAM and how much?
What operating system are you running?
How big is your hard drive and how many do you have?
Is it set up in RAID configuration and if so, which one?
You also said it was a server. Do you mean music server or network server?
Do you have it overclocked and by how much?
Do you use it for games or just surfing the net?
Do you have one of those cool cases with all the lights inside?
http://www.aaa-clipart.com/data/anim3/music/an5.gif

[Rich-n-Texas]

DAM!!! Look at THAT smilie! Top that L.J.

[L.J.]

That's a smilie :idea:

[Rich-n-Texas]

That's a smilie :idea:
You know what I mean! :incazzato: