Amazing how some can tell subtle differences between cables.

[Tony_Montana]

I use an equalizer via tape monitor so I can switch it off and on via remote control instantaneously. When I change EQ settings (mostly is less than 1 dB change..so we are talking about subtle), the only I can tell if the new setting(s) is better than the old one is if I switch it off and on instantaneously.

If there was any time lapse (even few seconds) were between listening sessions, there is no way in the world I could tell if new EQ settings is an improvement or not.
So from personal experience, when some cable reviewer say that when he/she swap cable wires (which probably be more than few seconds) and noticed 'slight' improvement in midrange, highs or sound stage, I think to my self that this guy might:

1. have a memory like an elephant that can remember every music passages.
2. or he/she is imagining things.
3. or..................

[bturk667]

I can and have heard the differences cables can make in MY system!
If you or others can not hear any differences when trying them in your own systems , big deal. I am not going to lose any sleep over it, I hope you do not in trying to understand why I can!

[uncooked]

i have to, i was using 14 gauge tin wrapped copper for my fronts, and i switched to 14 gauge copper, and it sounded like twice as good, all the highs were in the music, before it was all really deep and sounded muddy. but i have to admit it was really crappy wire to start with, so i dont know if it counts

[pctower]

I use an equalizer via tape monitor so I can switch it off and on via remote control instantaneously. When I change EQ settings (mostly is less than 1 dB change..so we are talking about subtle), the only I can tell if the new setting(s) is better than the old one is if I switch it off and on instantaneously.

If there was any time lapse (even few seconds) were between listening sessions, there is no way in the world I could tell if new EQ settings is an improvement or not.
So from personal experience, when some cable reviewer say that when he/she swap cable wires (which probably be more than few seconds) and noticed 'slight' improvement in midrange, highs or sound stage, I think to my self that this guy might:

1. have a memory like an elephant that can remember every music passages.
2. or he/she is imagining things.
3. or..................

Rather arrogant would you say to pass judgment on everyone else, based on your own personal experiences?

[mtrycraft]

I hope you do not in trying to understand why I can!

But we need to if indeed you can tell audible differences. That is how science advances. But, for that to be meaningfull, you do need to demonstrate your prowess undedr bias controlled conditions. Highly unlikely event.

[mtrycraft]

i have to, i was using 14 gauge tin wrapped copper for my fronts, and i switched to 14 gauge copper, and it sounded like twice as good, all the highs were in the music, before it was all really deep and sounded muddy. but i have to admit it was really crappy wire to start with, so i dont know if it counts

Perception can be highly unreliable; hope you know this fact.
Why would that tin coating matter?

[mtrycraft]

Rather arrogant would you say to pass judgment on everyone else, based on your own personal experiences?

Since rapid switching has been demonstrated to be the best for detection, how is it arrogant to draw that conclusion? Oh, one only needs to ask JJ about rapid switching.
Or, did I miss something here?

[markw]

i have to, i was using 14 gauge tin wrapped copper for my fronts, and i switched to 14 gauge copper, and it sounded like twice as good, all the highs were in the music, before it was all really deep and sounded muddy. but i have to admit it was really crappy wire to start with, so i dont know if it counts


The only possible reason for something like this is that they were not connectecd correctly. If they were, this is patently untrue.

[maxg]

On many ocasions I have been at people's houses and asked to comment on their systems etc. Generally during any kind of review I try to glance at the cabling. You would be amazed how often I find blackened copper ends held at best loosely into their sockets. As a matter of course I will snip off those blackened ends, expose some clean copper from under the sheath and properly tighten the connections.

Sometimes this simple fix can provide discernable improvement in the sound - sometimes not (to the owner I mean).

On other ocasions I have found cables worn, bent at right angles and even nailed to the wall (through the copper). I generally suggest replacement under these circumstances - unless there is sufficient wire to cut off the damaged sections.

To say someone is lying when they find huge differences in cables is wrong - there can be many and various causes aside from any sonic benefits of one cable over another.

MY favorite of all was a friend who bought a pair of Klipsch KLF 30's and was complaining of having no bass (each speaker has 2 12 inch woofers in a ported enclosure). when I went round I discovered the problem was the cable. He had only connected the upper connectors - the lower ones were not connected to anything (the little solid copper links usually supplied were MIA). I cut about 3 inches off each cable run and linked the 2 connectors together. Made quite a difference...

[pctower]

Since rapid switching has been demonstrated to be the best for detection, how is it arrogant to draw that conclusion? Oh, one only needs to ask JJ about rapid switching.
Or, did I miss something here?

You missed something.

[E-Stat]

You missed something.
Beat me to the punch!

rw

[E-Stat]

or..................
3. Carefully chooses one or more musical passages that are:
---- A. very well known to the listener
---- B. selected to identify a particular characterisitic or variation.

I guess then that you have experimented little with speaker placement, listening position, or room treatments, as none offer an instantaneous switching capability. You might be surprised how critical room placement can be and how valuable room treatments can be.

Here are a couple of examples I've used.

1. My 30x15 room inherently possesses some rather vicious room nodes. One centered around 30hz was actually at times entertaining. I chose the "Yulunga" cut from Dead Can Dance's Toward the Within album to measure the success of using bass traps. There is an acoustical drum that extends down to the bottom octaves. Before using the traps, the strike of the drum created an extended "boom" past the initial strike. Fun, but not real. After putting traps in the two corners behind the panels, the same drum sounded very different. The initial strike was cleaner and the boom disappeared.

2. Among their many benefits, my bipolar electrostatic speakers are an utter b*tch to position for the best midbass and imaging. To fine tune the distance in the room, I chose the female voice as I find I am very sensitive to changes in that "instrument". Using the "golden triangle" method, I began with a distance to back wall of about seven feet. Then I began a long process of experimenting with both that distance and optimum listening position. I chose a combination that sounded most lifelike to me. That meant moving the speakers further out to about eight feet and moving my initial listening position somewhat closer. I chose a number of favorite vocalists including that of my wife (who has a very clear voice and sings in a barbershop chorus).

It can be done my friend.

rw

[Tony_Montana]

Rather arrogant would you say to pass judgment on everyone else, based on your own personal experiences?

Well, members at CA do it all the time :D

As Mtry mentioned, rapid switching is very effective way to distinguish subtle changes between cables as it will take memory coloration out of picture. I believe rapid switching is even more reliable than DBT testing (I know Mrty will disagree with that) as in DB testing, memory still does play a part.


I guess then that you have experimented little with speaker placement, listening position, or room treatments, as none offer an instantaneous switching capability.

That is true, but most of the time speaker placement effects are not subtle at all and often dramatic. And one can forecasts what type of effect speaker placement will have on the sound so as to pay close attention to it. For example, when you placed traps around your room, you were paying very close attention to bass notes to see if its effects are improvement or not.

But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)

[E-Stat]

But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)
Huh? It works for everyone who can read in either case.

rw

[mtrycraft]

I believe rapid switching is even more reliable than DBT testing (I know Mrty will disagree with that) as in DB testing, memory still does play a part.

But you can do rapid switching under DBT, especially with an ABX box:)
Test subject will do this on their own without instruction as they discover the advantages of this.


But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)

If the cables are comparable, 12ga -16ga, it is very predictable, nothing will happen. :)

[uncooked]

The only possible reason for something like this is that they were not connectecd correctly. If they were, this is patently untrue.



well it is different now, they were connected properly for sure, and now that the new wire is on i can turn it up as loud as i want with no distortion, before the voices in movies would get really harsh, everybody would have a really bad lisp, every s was dragged out. now its perfect.

[markw]

well it is different now, they were connected properly for sure, and now that the new wire is on i can turn it up as loud as i want with no distortion, before the voices in movies would get really harsh, everybody would have a really bad lisp, every s was dragged out. now its perfect.

The reason I ask this, and I doubt your claim, is that when cable differences do exist (and, yes, they possibly can) it takes a system of fairly high resoultion and even then, the differences are subtle at best and yhen heard only under fairly careful listening.

Not to sound elitist. but somehow I don't think yoursystem has that resolving power. Mine doesn't and you can view it @ audioasylum under markw*.

Now, here you are claiming a monumentous gain in quality? Sometimes we hear what we want to hear, not what is. If there was a change in sound, odds are it was a bad connection that was fixed when you changed cables.

But to hang that change on cables? Nahhhh.

[E-Stat]

If there was a change in sound, odds are it was a bad connection that was fixed when you changed cables.

But to hang that change on cables? Nahhhh.
I would have to agree.

rw

[uncooked]

there was no bad connection for sure, im very carefull about thoughs things, every strand of the cable goes in as well, i make sure not to cut or severe any strand.

and all i can say is that distortion at high volumes is gone. its not something you can just believe. i have had people comment on it sounding better, "becuase i watch movies, and music really loud with friends" and they noticed the change as well, and they know nothing about audio stuff.

but like i said, "it probably doesnt count" it was really bad cable to start with, it was like commercial data transfer wire, that some neighbour gave us and said it was awsome stuff, but it wasnt......... i have my rears turned up to 14 feet away, when there really only 7, in order to make the level with the fronts, thats how much signal it loses from around 40 feet of this wire. and ive tested it, since i have a rear centre as well, and that is run with good wire, i plugged a speaker into that and set it for 7 feet and it works loud and clear.

[markw]

I am curious as to the physical differences in the old/new wires. What is the gauge of the two wires in question?

Nobody has ever disputed that a wide disparity in wire gauge over a distance can cause a voltage drop, which is measurable and can, in some cases, be audiable.

If that's the case, then there could be a reason for you having to drive the amp so hard as to strain it, which is what you seem to describe. Using a high gauge (thin) wire for a long run is a no no.

[pctower]

Well, members at CA do it all the time :D

As Mtry mentioned, rapid switching is very effective way to distinguish subtle changes between cables as it will take memory coloration out of picture. I believe rapid switching is even more reliable than DBT testing (I know Mrty will disagree with that) as in DB testing, memory still does play a part.



That is true, but most of the time speaker placement effects are not subtle at all and often dramatic. And one can forecasts what type of effect speaker placement will have on the sound so as to pay close attention to it. For example, when you placed traps around your room, you were paying very close attention to bass notes to see if its effects are improvement or not.

But for cables, not only effects are subtle, but one can not participate ahead of time what type of effects it will have on the sound :)


Personally, I suspect that a scientifically proper cable DBT has never been reported. Probably one has never even been conducted. Therefore, claims and statements made by both sides are mainly mental masturbation.

E-stat explained in a recent post why cable companies don't bother to conduct scientific DBTs, and no one else seems to care enough to do so.

Audio (as opposed to home entertainment and background music) has always been primarily for those who have a dedicated listening area with two speakers properly placed in relationship to a single sitting position. Audiophiles are those who are passionately interested in music AND good home reproduction, to the point that their approach to electronic home reproduction of music is very much at variance with the general population. Audiophiles are people who sit in front of their two speakers for hours on end the way most other boobs sit in front of TVs. Because of the serious nature of their listening habits, audiophiles are naturally prone to seek improvements in their systems, where most people don't care because their systems are primarily for background music, and hiding all equipment, cables and speakers is the primary deisign consideration for their systems.

The vast majority of audiophiles have always made decisions based on what they perceive to make improvements in their systems that were worth the cost of these improvements. They care about how their own system sounds to them - they don't care about the science or lack of science in back of what they do. Moreover, they make their decisions consistent with the way they listen - sighted and non-scientifically.

If these kind of people didn't exist, there would be no Audio industry and virtually no audiophiles. Companies such as Levinson, Rowland, Krell, Audio Research, MIT, Transparent, Audioquest, Conrad-Johnson, Vandersteen, SoundLab, etc would never have come into existence and this site would not exist if audiophiles took the scientific approach the few stallwarts on this board seem to demand.

Let me make myself perfectly clear. I do not believe anyone on this board or on any audio board has ever really dealt with audio DBTs in a valid, scientific manner. There are difficult statistical issues involved. In addition, the validity of tests is dependent upon the expertise behind the tests. The required expertise is not engineering. Rather it comes more from psychologists. And as far as I can tell there are virtually no people who possess the degree of expertise in the proper disciplines that would be required to set up, hold or opinine on valid blind testing as applied to cables (or for that matter all other components) who ever post on the internet.

[Richard Greene]

Every four to six months in a hot humid climate, or every 8 to 12 months in a dry environment, take apart all your wires and clean the ends of the wires and terminations
and jacks with contact cleaner such as the Caig deoxIT I use (or one of a hundred other brands).

Clean the inside of rarely used controls such as the balance control, bass & treble control every six months for old equipment (over 8-10 years old .. and every year for newer equipment. More often in hot humid areas.

Then tighten all connections (very tight without breaking anything).

You are more likely to hear ... the same improvement you'd hear if you replaced your old corroded wires/loose connections with new clean wires and tight connections. Of course then you'd attribute the change to the new wires.

Or maybe everythibng will sound the same, but at least you will be busy and productive for a while. and far away from this WireNut/WirePolice asylum!

[mtrycraft]

Let me make myself perfectly clear. I do not believe anyone on this board or on any audio board has ever really dealt with audio DBTs in a valid, scientific manner. There are difficult statistical issues involved. In addition, the validity of tests is dependent upon the expertise behind the tests. The required expertise is not engineering. Rather it comes more from psychologists. And as far as I can tell there are virtually no people who possess the degree of expertise in the proper disciplines that would be required to set up, hold or opinine on valid blind testing as applied to cables (or for that matter all other components) who ever post on the internet.

Perhaps you should contact Dr Toole? He know how and what his data is on wires. It comes down to wire basics, R, I, C.

[zapr]

I can and have heard the differences cables can make in MY system!
If you or others can not hear any differences when trying them in your own systems , big deal. I am not going to lose any sleep over it, I hope you do not in trying to understand why I can!
........Exactly what differences do you hear? Can you describe what gains you noticed in detail or what you noticed as a loss?.........Zapr

[bturk667]

Aren't cables and the differences that they can make to a system great?!?

[bturk667]

Gains: Bass detail, crisper and more vibrant high end, allows for better detail. Also, a better sense of air.
Loss: Background noise was quelled. Example: Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" on CD, has an audible amount of hiss. With the Blue Heavens in place, the hiss is less audible. It is easier to focus on the musicians and their masterful playing.

[markw]

Yeah, it does have hiss. It's part of the recording, or at least the media it's recorded on.

Now, if that hiss is part of the recording, and cables attenuate this particular frequency range for t his recording, how do they know to not attenuate this frequency range on recordings that don't have hiss in this range?

[bturk667]

Why ask me, ask Nordost. Anyway, that was just one example. The sound is cleaner on all recordings. By the way, "Kind of Blue" on vinyl, has no hiss!

[pctower]

Perhaps you should contact Dr Toole? He know how and what his data is on wires. It comes down to wire basics, R, I, C.

He has to my knowledge never even claimed to have conducted DBTs on cables. If you know otherwise, please enlighten me.

[Monstrous Mike]

He has to my knowledge never even claimed to have conducted DBTs on cables. If you know otherwise, please enlighten me.
I have second hand knowledge that he has conducted DBTs on speaker wires. When he was designing speakers and testing them, he wanted to make sure all of the variables in his DBTs on speakers were controlled and that included the cables. He found that cables did not affect the sound of his speakers.

I cannot verify this story but I have no reason to doubt the person that told me this.

[Tony_Montana]

If these kind of people [audiophiles] didn't exist, there would be no Audio industry and virtually no audiophiles. Companies such as Levinson, Rowland, Krell, Audio Research, MIT, Transparent, Audioquest, Conrad-Johnson, Vandersteen, SoundLab, etc would never have come into existence and this site would not exist if audiophiles took the scientific approach the few stallwarts on this board seem to demand.

I really don't see what that got to do with cables. Are you saying that any audiophile that don't belive in exotic bales is not an audiophile-even if they owns expensive equipment from companies you mentioned?

There are alot of audiophile or professionals (even on this site such as Terrence or Greene) that do own or worked with expensive components, but do not belive in exotic cables. And they like listen to music as much as next audiophile :)

[mtrycraft]

I have second hand knowledge that he has conducted DBTs on speaker wires. When he was designing speakers and testing them, he wanted to make sure all of the variables in his DBTs on speakers were controlled and that included the cables. He found that cables did not affect the sound of his speakers.

I cannot verify this story but I have no reason to doubt the person that told me this.

A number of years ago I corresponded with him on this and a couple of other issues. Your second hand story is factual :) Cables boiled down to the old standard, R, C, L. nothing more.

[zapr]

Why ask me, ask Nordost. Anyway, that was just one example. The sound is cleaner on all recordings. By the way, "Kind of Blue" on vinyl, has no hiss!
........Thanks bturk667. Which Nordost cables do you use and can you tell me how much $? I'm looking for something that will tone the treble region down somewhat without spending a whole lot.........Zapr.

[mtrycraft]

........Thanks bturk667. Which Nordost cables do you use and can you tell me how much $?

Too much for what it just cannot do, has not been demonstrated it can do.




I'm looking for something that will tone the treble region down somewhat without spending a whole lot.........Zapr.

Use your tone control, it is free. Or, add a resistor in the line, maybe a 1/2 ohm, will tame your treble, about a $1. Or, cover your tweeter, free.

[zapr]

........Thanks bturk667. Which Nordost cables do you use and can you tell me how much $?

Too much for what it just cannot do, has not been demonstrated it can do.




I'm looking for something that will tone the treble region down somewhat without spending a whole lot.........Zapr.

Use your tone control, it is free. Or, add a resistor in the line, maybe a 1/2 ohm, will tame your treble, about a $1. Or, cover your tweeter, free.
........Thanks Mtry. Any idea where I could get such a resistor. I checked rat shack but they don't carry resistors anymore..........Zapr.

[mtrycraft]

........Thanks Mtry. Any idea where I could get such a resistor. I checked rat shack but they don't carry resistors anymore..........Zapr.

That is hard to believe they don't. Try the yellow pages for an electronics parts store. On line search?

[Sealed]

Richard Dunlavy of the defunkt speaker company did a really dirty thing to a group of audiophiles. He sat them down in a listening room. He allowed them to see "assistants" in lab coats "swap" anaconda-thick cable in place of some AWG 12 OFC. The comments were mostly "Wow ! what an incredible improvement!!!" "My God Richard...tell me you can't hear that!" Problem is, they never actually switched out the cables from the AWG 12.

I believe that cables are in essence, a tone filter. I believe the compensate for system nasties. That does not mean I endorse expensive cables. I think it is obscene and criminal for NBS to charge $30,000 for cables. $3000 is obscene for that matter, it's just wire!!! $3000 will get you a killer source component or speakers that will make a BIG difference, not a cable that makes a small one.

I have tried MIT cables in my system, and let me tell you...the results were ugly. The R/C of that stuff must be very high. It was like putting a towel over my tweeters. OFC 12 sounded better. MIT does some nasty things to color the signal.

DNM cable (not recommended for speaker cable!) has poor sheilding. You can hear the loss treble and bass. Your system goes flat, because a lot of the signal is radiated into space.

I have some old Audioquest cables that work exceptionally well. They are based on a helically wound copper, insulated by teflon, and again around the conductors by polypropelene. These can be found used for a few bucks. But they have exceptionally low R/C charactaristics, and exceptional shieilding.

The gist of all this is that IMO cables filter the sound. A good cable has low resistance to the signal, and good shielding. I prefer the best signal transfer, and that solution comes a lot cheaper than the cable industry will have you believe. I do not believe in "cable miracles." My AQ cable is a LITTLE better than standard OFC because of it's construction. But to say "Oh my Lord, it's night and day!!!" would be misrepresenting the contribution that cables have IMO.

[bturk667]

I use the Nordost Blue Heavens; they retail for @ $180 a meter. Now the Solar Wind are also very good, there retail price is @ $120 a meter. You might want to take a listen to the kimber Kable Hero. It is a little softer in the high-end than the Nordost Blue Heavens. Their retail price ia @ $150 a meter. I know that these cables are expensive, but I feel there worth it.

[bturk667]

Funny thing, Dunlavy had their own speaker cables that you could buy, go figure!

[Sealed]

Dunlavy, along with Frank Van Alstein are basically whores when it comes to cables. Both went to great lengths to decry high end cables. But due to companies pressuring them, the coalesced, and ended up endorsing and/or making certain cables.

That tells you that the promise of income kicks any ethics butt.

[zapr]

That is hard to believe they don't. Try the yellow pages for an electronics parts store. On line search?
.......Yeah I thought it strange they would drop resistors. In the area I live, Kitchener Ont. Ca, all rat shack stores don't carry resistors anymore. They said they were'nt selling......Zapr.

[pctower]

Dunlavy, along with Frank Van Alstein are basically whores when it comes to cables. Both went to great lengths to decry high end cables. But due to companies pressuring them, the coalesced, and ended up endorsing and/or making certain cables.

That tells you that the promise of income kicks any ethics butt.

I find it interesting that passions involving cables run so deep that two giants of audio who have contributed far more to audio than any of us web junkies will ever dream of are referred to as "whores".

[Sealed]

I find it interesting that passions involving cables run so deep that two giants of audio who have contributed far more to audio than any of us web junkies will ever dream of are referred to as "whores".

I have talked to Frank on the phone, and via e-mail. I own some AVA gear. It's great stuff. However, he sold out his ethics and pricipals. He was dyed in the wool anti-snake oil/cable etc. He got pressure from cable companies to back off, he was potentially hurting thier sales. So he decides he will go with the ever popular Kimber kable, almost in direct contradiction of his own mantra over many years. That is pretty much whoring yourself out. Frank is a great guy, and makes great stuff, but he caved and sold out.

[Tony_Montana]

A good cable has low resistance to the signal, and good shielding. I prefer the best signal transfer, and that solution comes a lot cheaper than the cable industry will have you believe.

Bingo my friend, you said it all. Transparency (best signal transfer) concept is so easy to grasp-and not that expensive or hard to achieve, but nightmarish concept for those who believe in cable's sound :)

[markw]

I find it interesting that passions involving cables run so deep that two giants of audio who have contributed far more to audio than any of us web junkies will ever dream of are referred to as "whores".

I guess that puts them in the same league as lawyers now.

[pctower]

I guess that puts them in the same league as lawyers now.

Gee Mark. How in the world did you ever get so clever and creative? No, rather how did you rid yourself of every last bit of self-respect to the point that you could so freely throw out such trite and tired stuff?

[markw]

I never could resist a good straight line. Thanks for throwing me the bone.

[mtrycraft]

Richard Dunlavy of the defunkt speaker company did a really dirty thing to a group of audiophiles. He sat them down in a listening room. He allowed them to see "assistants" in lab coats "swap" anaconda-thick cable in place of some AWG 12 OFC. The comments were mostly "Wow ! what an incredible improvement!!!" "My God Richard...tell me you can't hear that!" Problem is, they never actually switched out the cables from the AWG 12.


I didn't know John Dunlavy had a brother Richard.
You have a problem with that demonstration of people's gullibility? A prime example, easy to replicate day in and day out, even under sighted conditions :D

I believe that cables are in essence, a tone filter.

Well, if you want fractional dB differences on the order of .2-.5dB, go for it. Good luck hearing it.

I believe the compensate for system nasties.

Same as above.

That does not mean I endorse expensive cables.

You just endores ineffective tone controls.



I think it is obscene and criminal for NBS to charge $30,000 for cables. $3000 is obscene for that matter, it's just wire!!! $3000 will get you a killer source component or speakers that will make a BIG difference, not a cable that makes a small one.=

Ah, now we're quibbling about price?

Your system goes flat, because a lot of the signal is radiated into space.

What? where did you get this nonsense? You have zero evidence for this either measured effect or audible effect of this.

I have some old Audioquest cables that work exceptionally well. They are based on a helically wound copper, insulated by teflon, and again around the conductors by polypropelene. These can be found used for a few bucks. But they have exceptionally low R/C charactaristics, and exceptional shieilding.


Great:) A few bucks sounds good to me.

The gist of all this is that IMO cables filter the sound.

Well, I think your gist went beyond that here.

A good cable has low resistance to the signal, and good shielding. I prefer the best signal transfer, and that solution comes a lot cheaper than the cable industry will have you believe.

Hey, we agree :D


My AQ cable is a LITTLE better than standard OFC because of it's construction.

Great :)

[mtrycraft]

Funny thing, Dunlavy had their own speaker cables that you could buy, go figure!


How is that funny? He filled his customers desires.

[mtrycraft]

Dunlavy, along with Frank Van Alstein are basically whores when it comes to cables. Both went to great lengths to decry high end cables. But due to companies pressuring them, the coalesced, and ended up endorsing and/or making certain cables.That tells you that the promise of income kicks any ethics butt.

Do you have any proof of your slanderous allegations? What claims did Dunlavy make on top of his demontrations of the preposterous claims for audible differences in cables are bogus?

[mtrycraft]

I find it interesting that passions involving cables run so deep that two giants of audio who have contributed far more to audio than any of us web junkies will ever dream of are referred to as "whores".


I find it sad.

[zapr]

........Thanks bturk667. Which Nordost cables do you use and can you tell me how much $?

Too much for what it just cannot do, has not been demonstrated it can do.




I'm looking for something that will tone the treble region down somewhat without spending a whole lot.........Zapr.

Use your tone control, it is free. Or, add a resistor in the line, maybe a 1/2 ohm, will tame your treble, about a $1. Or, cover your tweeter, free.
.........Picked up a couple resistors today. 1.50 per. Did the trick quite nicely.........Zapr.

[Sealed]

[QUOTE=mtrycraft][
I didn't know John Dunlavy had a brother Richard.

Possibly I was talking over my left shoulder with a friend who met Richard Vandersteen while I was typing about Dunlavy.

I believe that cables are in essence, a tone filter.

Well, if you want fractional dB differences on the order of .2-.5dB, go for it. Good luck hearing it.

MIT was quite audible. It removed anything resembling treble from a couple different systems we tried it on. It was not subtle, and it was easy to conclude that MIT wasn't for me. It's easy to hear. But MIT isn't "just wire" they have components inline also. Obviously an induced resistance.


I believe the compensate for system nasties.

Same as above.

They can, by rolling off the treble response. That's easy to hear, and measure.

That does not mean I endorse expensive cables.

You just endores ineffective tone controls.

Wanna -be tone controls that I don't subscribe to.

I think it is obscene and criminal for NBS to charge $30,000 for cables. $3000 is obscene for that matter, it's just wire!!! $3000 will get you a killer source component or speakers that will make a BIG difference, not a cable that makes a small one.=

Ah, now we're quibbling about price?

Yes, wanna make something of it skeptic-boy? Do you always have to take the opportunity to be a twit in every post? People would actually take you more seriously if you didn't try to be Fear3000. I have been waiting for years for you to provide us with a list of your reference-class stereo main system from which you make all your assertions. I bet it's less accurate and neutral and revealing than mine, ergo less valid of a test bed. Lets hear it, you have JBL speakers, Denon reciever and what sources?

Your system goes flat, because a lot of the signal is radiated into space.

What? where did you get this nonsense? You have zero evidence for this either measured effect or audible effect of this.

--It's measurable. Poor insulation, parallel conductors= radiated loss. The DNM speaker cable output is a lot less than the input. I have test equiptment at my shop that measure everything from spectral analysis to micro signal levels. Do you? with what are you making measurements?

I have some old Audioquest cables that work exceptionally well. They are based on a helically wound copper, insulated by teflon, and again around the conductors by polypropelene. These can be found used for a few bucks. But they have exceptionally low R/C charactaristics, and exceptional shieilding.


Great:) A few bucks sounds good to me.

So that's the key, we are quibbling about price? It MUST be cheap to be good?

You tend to blend as much fact, with extreme bias, fallacy, ego and irrelevance as anyone else. You disguise it by being a Peter Aczel wanna be. You throw rocks at everyone (Like Romy the cat) but when confronted and challenged to list your own system truthfully, you "pussy out"...much like that other guy...You have repeatedly deflected and dodged questions in the lamest manner possible. "Oh it's irrelevent..." well at least FEAR3000 had a revealing system and would post his gear on the web. You on the other hand fling rocks, and then cower away. If people knew you have a relentlessly midfi system, it would let a lot of your hot air out. And you are afraid of that. your real credibility lies not in simple resistive measurements. It also depends on:
1) Quality and accuracy of the system you own. Which I a skeptical that you have one , or know what one sounds like.

2) That you are not actually tone deaf as I have suspected for years.

Compiling the data from your posts (before and after you got banned for a while) I can make a strong case for saying you just can't hear, because you have abnormally poor hearing. That is a very good possibility. But again, good hearing is irrelevent if you have mediocre equiptment in which to form an opinion to cast rocks.

[bturk667]

It was his company wasn't it? So he should have stood up for what he believed in. I do not buy your argument.

[mtrycraft]

It was his company wasn't it? So he should have stood up for what he believed in. I do not buy your argument.


His company? Or, he just works there as an exec of research?

[mtrycraft]

MIT was quite audible. It removed anything resembling treble from a couple different systems we tried it on. It was not subtle, and it was easy to conclude that MIT wasn't for me. It's easy to hear. But MIT isn't "just wire" they have components inline also. Obviously an induced resistance.

You should read the patent on the cable which is useless. The cable box is a filter for RF, not audio signals.
I'd rather see a DBT compariosn to be sure of differences.


They can, by rolling off the treble response. That's easy to hear, and measure.

Only if it is large enough magnitude. The, the cable is a poor design, broken cable.



I have been waiting for years for you to provide us with a list of your reference-class stereo main system from which you make all your assertions. I bet it's less accurate and neutral and revealing than mine, ergo less valid of a test bed. Lets hear it, you have JBL speakers, Denon reciever and what sources?

Irrelevant, especially as I make no claims for audibility of anything. It is you who has to demonstrate audibility, YES. You cannot pass the burden of proof. It will remain in your court until you stop making claims for differences unsupported by credible evidence.



--It's measurable.

What is measured?



Poor insulation, parallel conductors= radiated loss.

Poor insulation causes losses? Hogwash. parallel conductors with signals in opposite direction tends to cancell out most everything. And, if you can measure it, doesn't mean a thing that it robs your speakers of signal, LOL.



The DNM speaker cable output is a lot less than the input.

How much? Inductance and resistance has nothing to do with it? Really? And, so what. Turn up the volume control by 1/2dB.



I have test equiptment at my shop that measure everything from spectral analysis to micro signal levels.

Good for you. And the results are? Caused by what? Magnetic field radiation? LOL. Where did the resistance loss, inductance loos gone? Mythology?



but when confronted and challenged to list your own system truthfully,

You Just Don't Get IT!!! I don't really need a system, not even a boom box, to make comment here, take you to task to prove your fantastic claims of fancy. Try to remember that, what I have has no relevance on what you can hear or cannot hear and claim to hear. ZERO.


well at least FEAR3000 had a revealing system

You you claim it to be revealing? Based on name brand or demonstrably revealing? Prove it.



If people knew you have a relentlessly midfi system, it would let a lot of your hot air out.


Ah, facts are established by what I have or don't have. What you can hear and claim to hear. LOL. You are too funny for words.


It also depends on:
1) Quality and accuracy of the system you own. Which I a skeptical that you have one , or know what one sounds like.
2) That you are not actually tone deaf as I have suspected for years.

Hogwash. All it depends on is what you can demonstrate, unbiased. You have no evidence of that, hence you have unreliable hype, nothing more.
Why don't you just pretend I am deaf altogether. That will put you out of your misery waiting for what I have or don't have.

Compiling the data from your posts (before and after you got banned for a while)

Really?



I can make a strong case for saying you just can't hear, because you have abnormally poor hearing. That is a very good possibility. .


Then it is settled. No need to agonize anymore what I don't have. But, you are still on th ehot seat to demonstrate your claims for audibility. Rather simple. Your court, cannot leave your court. Check mate.

[mtrycraft]

He has to my knowledge never even claimed to have conducted DBTs on cables. If you know otherwise, please enlighten me.

Email him. Simple. His email is at the web site for Harman.

[pctower]

You should read the patent on the cable which is useless. The cable box is a filter for RF, not audio signals.
I'd rather see a DBT compariosn to be sure of differences.

And how do you know the particular model cable he was listening to employed that particular patent?

Irrelevant, especially as I make no claims for audibility of anything. It is you who has to demonstrate audibility, YES. You cannot pass the burden of proof. It will remain in your court until you stop making claims for differences unsupported by credible evidence.

You make such claims almost daily with the unqualified advice you give here to newcomers. It would be one thing if you simply pointed out to them the lack of proof. But you go beyond that and for all intents and purposes make absolute claims that cables don't make a difference.

I for one believe it to be highly irresponsible for you to set your self up as an authority and pontificate on audible differences in the form and manner that you do without revealing who you are, what your background is and what kind of system you have.

Your dodge is wearing thin. It works if all you did is refer to the test results (of course, it would be nice if you were honest about it while doing it and point out the flaws in the protocol and statistical analysis and disclose your own level of expertise in evaluating such matters), but when you choose to play with the big boys and start giving unqualified advice about audibility of cables then you have crossed the line where the unwritten (and I believe extremely fair) code says if you're going to spout off about such things you had better let people know your own personal point of reference.

[Monstrous Mike]

I for one believe it to be highly irresponsible for you to set your self up as an authority and pontificate on audible differences in the form and manner that you do without revealing who you are, what your background is and what kind of system you have.
What are you setting yourself up as?

[Monstrous Mike]

Your (Mtrycrafts) dodge is wearing thin.
What dodge? He has nothing to dodge. People who claim cables are magical are the ones doing the dodging.

And further, it is very resposible advice to say you only need basic cables in your audio system. Show me how that is not reponsible advice. On the other hand, advising people to spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars based on in-home "experience" is very irresponsible advice.

Besides, any advice given here is at your own risk anyways so why all the personal attacks? What have you got against people giving their opinion?

[Sealed]

They can, by rolling off the treble response. That's easy to hear, and measure.

Only if it is large enough magnitude. The, the cable is a poor design, broken cable.
[B]large enough is easy enough to do. Doesn't have to be broken cable. Just has to induce resistance or loss, which many do.


I have been waiting for years for you to provide us with a list of your reference-class stereo main system from which you make all your assertions. I bet it's less accurate and neutral and revealing than mine, ergo less valid of a test bed. Lets hear it, you have JBL speakers, Denon reciever and what sources?

Irrelevant, especially as I make no claims for audibility of anything. It is you who has to demonstrate audibility, YES. You cannot pass the burden of proof. It will remain in your court until you stop making claims for differences unsupported by credible evidence.

ROTFLMAO!!! You are as easy to read and predict as a comic book! I *KNEW* you would take the pussy route! You backed out just as I said you would. It makes ALL THE DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD YOU DISINGENOUS HYPOCRIT! You make claims every damn post that no one can hear the difference in anything.

The gospel according to the pussy-out, disingenuous, hyprocritical, deaf MTRY "cop out" crafts: Matra repeated ad nauseum since the 90's:
1- All cd players sound the same
2. cables make no difference
3. amps make no difference

Of course they don't you JBL owning 7-11 manager! You have no equipment that is revealing or resoloute enough for you to hear any difference. You are obviously tone deaf, and have never heard a revealing system. you have contradicted yourself throughout the years (anyone can look up your posts and prove this.) you are simply raging against the machine citing only partially meaningful test and measure claptrap. Fact is, you do not possess equiptment of a decent calibre that can discern differences, and there is no doubt that you have hearing problems and cannot hear anything anyway.



--It's measurable.

What is measured?

Roll off. Loss . The FR curve.

Poor insulation, parallel conductors= radiated loss.

Poor insulation causes losses? Hogwash. parallel conductors with signals in opposite direction tends to cancell out most everything. And, if you can measure it, doesn't mean a thing that it robs your speakers of signal, LOL.

LOL? I am laughing my ass off at you, trying to obfuscate the matter and PUSSY OUT when confronted ...like a little punk. There is such thing as radiated loss, capicitive loss, inductive loss, and copper loss. They all reduce signal integrity you dimwit.



The DNM speaker cable output is a lot less than the input.

How much? Inductance and resistance has nothing to do with it? Really? And, so what. Turn up the volume control by 1/2dB.

That just makes it louder, and just as flat ...like your head.



I have test equiptment at my shop that measure everything from spectral analysis to micro signal levels.

Good for you. And the results are? Caused by what? Magnetic field radiation? LOL. Where did the resistance loss, inductance loos gone? Mythology?

You are living on another planet, appearently totally occupied by deaf *******s, and you are obviously king. You are obviously not an EE, and obviously a disingenous prick, and a pussy for throwing rocks and not walking the walk. Get a life you idiot.



but when confronted and challenged to list your own system truthfully,

You Just Don't Get IT!!! I don't really need a system, not even a boom box, to make comment here, take you to task to prove your fantastic claims of fancy. Try to remember that, what I have has no relevance on what you can hear or cannot hear and claim to hear. ZERO.

It has every relevence you dense prick. You tell everyone what they CAN'T hear. The only one that can't hear is you you deaf asswipe.


well at least FEAR3000 had a revealing system

You you claim it to be revealing? Based on name brand or demonstrably revealing? Prove it.

We all have hearing ability which you do not possess. It's called normal hearing. Fear3000 had a system based on Dunlavy speakers, high quality front end both digital and vinyl. Any flaw or coloration is immediatly obvious to those of us with normal hearing.


If people knew you have a relentlessly midfi system, it would let a lot of your hot air out.


Ah, facts are established by what I have or don't have. What you can hear and claim to hear. LOL. You are too funny for words.

You are too ****ing stupid for words. You claim to be mr a/b/x and readily burn down people for the choices they make. Just because you are completely deaf and have NO concept whatsoever what constitutes revealing, and detail. The fact is, you are a deaf ******* with an axe to grind. You are mad because of your stunted hearing ability and want to take it out on the entire world. You are NOT a debunker, you are just a ****ing prick.


It also depends on:
1) Quality and accuracy of the system you own. Which I a skeptical that you have one , or know what one sounds like.
2) That you are not actually tone deaf as I have suspected for years.

Hogwash. All it depends on is what you can demonstrate, unbiased. You have no evidence of that, hence you have unreliable hype, nothing more.
Why don't you just pretend I am deaf altogether. That will put you out of your misery waiting for what I have or don't have.

All you have is an axe to grind, and no hearing ability. Your assertions are far beyond worthless at best, asinine at least. You are pretentious as hell, and a wart on the ass of audio boards everywhere.

Compiling the data from your posts (before and after you got banned for a while)

Really?
Yes..they are all in history you jackass.



I can make a strong case for saying you just can't hear, because you have abnormally poor hearing. That is a very good possibility. .


Then it is settled. No need to agonize anymore what I don't have. But, you are still on th ehot seat to demonstrate your claims for audibility. Rather simple. Your court, cannot leave your court. Check mate.

There is no check mate. You have been crowned queen of the hypocritical **** for brains. I hope you and your ***** Romy live happily ever after.

[mtrycraft]

Didn't think you woule have an intelligent response. You proved me right. Must be psychic as well. I will now try for the Randi prize.
When you have something of real value to offer, please contribute.

[Romy the Cat]

You throw rocks at everyone (Like Romy the cat) but when confronted and challenged to list your own system truthfully, you "pussy out"...much like that other guy...You have repeatedly deflected and dodged questions in the lamest manner possible



Hm, you apparently know Romy and had opportunity to evaluate personally his idiocy. Or perhaps you was one of many Morons that Romy sent to screw themselves in order do not was his time on the socializing with the fertile cretins? Or perhaps you are familiar with Romy via the Rush Limbaugh broadcasts, the Rod Doorack barking or the Bruce Righter’s intelligence? Probably instead of boosting your pterodactyl-like cleverness and dropping Romy name you should to shut up and keep talking with Fear3000- he is a specially accommodated for the conversation with such a Morons like you.

The Cat

[Monstrous Mike]

Audiophiles are people who sit in front of their two speakers for hours on end the way most other boobs sit in front of TVs.
Yikes. Perhaps audiophiles should turn off their systems once and awhile and watch the Discovery Channel and learn something.



The vast majority of audiophiles have always made decisions based on what they perceive to make improvements in their systems that were worth the cost of these improvements. They care about how their own system sounds to them - they don't care about the science or lack of science in back of what they do. Moreover, they make their decisions consistent with the way they listen - sighted and non-scientifically.
People make perception decisions when it comes to art, decorating your home, gettting a haircut, buying wine. Most people do not make perceptions decisions when souping up their car, rebuilding their roof, or buying new hardware for their computer. I think it might be more accurate for you to say that audiophiles do not care if their system sounds the same after a change, only that they perceive an improvement and are thus "happier".



Let me make myself perfectly clear. I do not believe anyone on this board or on any audio board has ever really dealt with audio DBTs in a valid, scientific manner. There are difficult statistical issues involved. In addition, the validity of tests is dependent upon the expertise behind the tests. The required expertise is not engineering. Rather it comes more from psychologists. And as far as I can tell there are virtually no people who possess the degree of expertise in the proper disciplines that would be required to set up, hold or opinine on valid blind testing as applied to cables (or for that matter all other components) who ever post on the internet.
Probably true. But audiophiles do hold the upper hand because their own home listening results trump everything else. Maybe the security of that is the reason they will not let it go. But that would require the psychologist to verify.

[Pat D]

I have second hand knowledge that he has conducted DBTs on speaker wires. When he was designing speakers and testing them, he wanted to make sure all of the variables in his DBTs on speakers were controlled and that included the cables. He found that cables did not affect the sound of his speakers.

I cannot verify this story but I have no reason to doubt the person that told me this.
Alan Lofft, former editor of Audio Scene Canada, told me in an Email that Dr. Toole had done extensive DB testing with cables a number of years ago and found that proper cables did not make an audible difference.

[Monstrous Mike]

Alan Lofft, former editor of Audio Scene Canada, told me in an Email that Dr. Toole had done extensive DB testing with cables a number of years ago and found that proper cables did not make an audible difference.
Thanks, Pat. And I honestly believe that he went into such testing with a completely open mind with his only goal being to determine if he should be using a certain type (i.e. optimal) of speaker wire for his speaker DBT tests.

[mtrycraft]

Thanks, Pat. And I honestly believe that he went into such testing with a completely open mind with his only goal being to determine if he should be using a certain type (i.e. optimal) of speaker wire for his speaker DBT tests.


Of course. He is a scientis and wanted to be sure his research will have meaning by checking all the links in the chain and their effects.

[mtrycraft]

Alan Lofft, former editor of Audio Scene Canada, told me in an Email that Dr. Toole had done extensive DB testing with cables a number of years ago and found that proper cables did not make an audible difference.


When did you exchange with him? What time period did Toole do this? Was any of it published in that magazine back then?