Question re CD players and turntables

[lawman]

I have a general philosophical question:

Are high-end CD players a necessary part of an HT system?

If I run my CDs through my DVD player (granted, cheap Philips from Walmart) which is connected to my AVR by a digital coax cable, am I losing anything sound-wise? Would buying a high-end CD player improve my HT experience?

Also, I'm currently using an old RCA turntable which is due to be replaced. What should I be thinking about in terms of integrating it into my HT system? Any suggestions for turntables?

As always, thanks for all the help! Can't tell you how helpful this forum has been while I've been navigating through the very confusing world of audio.

[kelsci]

Hi Lawman; my brother just picked up a magnavox upconversion player at Walmart for 30 bucks. It is connected via coax to his Marantz-Mirage home theater system. I tested a CD in it and IMHO it works great as a CD transport. I was impressed with the audio this unit delivered into his system. You can certainly use the PHilips you have as a CD transport. Personally, I have liked using the DACS in the receivers processing the signal from a coax from not only his but from the dvd players that I have in my own system as well for CDs rather than deploying the analog two channel outputs for audio.

He also has an ELITE dv-37 dvd player to his system. It worked well as a cd transport. However, he did have a marantz multi-disc player hooked up to this system. The Marantz built in DACS outputted far superior sound out of its analog outputs than any dvd player could that we had on hand.

Sorry, Cannot help you on the turntable.

[lawman]

Kelsci,

Thanks for the response! About your point on using the RCA jack v/s coax - I just started using coax thanks to some advice I got on this forum and the difference is like night and day! It's amazing how much difference it makes.

Think I'll stick with the Philips DVD player for now. It's not the best out there (doesn't upsample) but it works pretty well, and I'm going to prioritize that money towards a new sub and / or turntable...

Lawman

[Mr Peabody]

The thing to keep in mind is where the decoding is done, if you use digital outs into the receiver, the decoding is done by the receiver's DAC and the source is merely being used as a transport. I have found some differences in the sound of transports but nothing as big as the difference in analog out. So, yes, you can use the Phillips for the transport but some day for better stereo playback of CD you might want to get a better CD player and use the analog out for music. Some receiver's offer a bypass feature for music to bypass all the surround circuitry for better sound. Better CD players can surpass the quality of a receiver's CD playback. As Kelci's example of the Marantz sounding better than the receiver.

You can get nice entry level turntables from Rega, Pro-Ject or Music Hall for around $299.00 with cart. These will blow your mind from the turntable sound you are used to. If you don't have a phono stage built into your receiver you will have to pick up an outboard phono preamp. I like the Creek OBH-8. I don't know what they run but it's under $200.00.
I had one of those and when I was ready to upgrade I had to look hard to find something better and when I did it costed over $1k. If you aren't that concerned about sound there are some DJ type tables out there with built in preamp and cost under $200.00, check Audio Teknika or Numark. If you have an album collection though you owe it to yourself to seek out one of the first three and give them a listen. The first time I heard a quality turntable I cannot express the amazement. I know I wouldn't have been so quick to jump to CD if I had one years ago.

www.amusicdirect.com & www.acousticsounds.com both carry turntables/phono preamps and offer a 30 day return policy. You might want to also pick up Michael Fremer's DVD on setting up turntables, it's supposed to be pretty good.

[PDN]

Mr. Peabody makes an excellent point about which output you use from your DVD/CD player and which DAC comes into play. Now as far as your question, I would work towards obtaining a decent dedicated CD player with a digital output. You don't have to spend a lot if you're on a budget. The budget higher end CD players would be a great choice (Marantz CD5001, NAD C525BEE, etc in the $325.00 area). You can also find some great preowned CD players at www.audiogon.com but always ask if they've been used in a smoke and pet free enivorment. Also I wouldn't buy any without a photo displayed in the ad.

Believe it or not, I purchased a preowned NAD 520 CD player for under $100.00 for a 2nd smaller system I have and it sounds fantastic. It was well taken care of. It's 10 years old but still sounds wonderful. That's NAD for you.

[pixelthis]

Mr. Peabody makes an excellent point about which output you use from your DVD/CD player and which DAC comes into play. Now as far as your question, I would work towards obtaining a decent dedicated CD player with a digital output. You don't have to spend a lot if you're on a budget. The budget higher end CD players would be a great choice (Marantz CD5001, NAD C525BEE, etc in the $325.00 area). You can also find some great preowned CD players at www.audiogon.com but always ask if they've been used in a smoke and pet free enivorment. Also I wouldn't buy any without a photo displayed in the ad.

Believe it or not, I purchased a preowned NAD 520 CD player for under $100.00 for a 2nd smaller system I have and it sounds fantastic. It was well taken care of. It's 10 years old but still sounds wonderful. That's NAD for you.


Before they started making their stuff in China, anyway.

Its not "high end" but a friend discovered Yamahas five disc CD changer, it really sounds good.
But the best strategy moneywise is to get a receiver with great dacs, that way you dont have to buy a dac twice, just use the dac in your receiver.
My receiver has 192 dacs, and CD BYPASS FOR DIRECT passage to the speakers,
both the analog AND digital signal pass unimpeded, and basically unchanged.
And my "transport"? A 300 disc Sony that I use to store my cds in, about as far away from
"high end " as you can get, but it does sound good.
DONT BUY INTO THE MARKETING HYPE. A lot of "high end" units use a plain jane
sony or matshuhita (panasonic) CD drive in their gear. They claim they "improve" it but mainly they "improve" the art of marketing BS:1:

[lawman]

Thanks again for all the comments! This is helpful.

So it looks like I'm ok with using the Philips DVD for the moment, but I think my christmas gift to myself (as if the HT set up wasn't enough already) is going to be a nice new turntable. Can't wait!

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, it would be quite interesting to see how a digital signal can pass through your receiver unimpeded. Also, the old argument all CD players are the same is so old, so false, I didn't think anyone was so uninformed anymore as to even bring it up.

There is much more to good CD playbac, than just the digital to analog conversion. It's how the signal is treated after that and the quality of parts used to preserve it until it passes from the analog outputs.

[musicman1999]

Part of it depends on what you expect, and also how much you want to spend.If you are happy with the sound then thats great, but bear in mind that it can always get better.Does not matter if you have invested a few hundred in your system, a couple of thousand or many thousand it can always get better.Welcome to the never ending search for great sound.

bill

[pixelthis]

Pix, it would be quite interesting to see how a digital signal can pass through your receiver unimpeded. Also, the old argument all CD players are the same is so old, so false, I didn't think anyone was so uninformed anymore as to even bring it up.

There is much more to good CD playbac, than just the digital to analog conversion. It's how the signal is treated after that and the quality of parts used to preserve it until it passes from the analog outputs.
Of course the signal is converted to analog, but it doesnt go through anything else like bass managment, etc, and a signal from the analog outs on a CD player arent changed either. Thats what I meant.
And of course there are differences between CD players, some use a Sony drive,
some use a matshuhita or one from some other OEM. Sad but true.
THIS MAKES SENSE from a finacial point of view, and it would be silly to make a drive
from teh ground up for one model or line of models.
Most manufacturers build a basic chassis for a model line, everything from the cheapest
to the most expensive is basically the same, they just get "features" added at every price point.
Oh, they claim they take a oem drive and "improve" it, this is just marketing BS.
Buy a top of the "line" and get better dacs, more "geegaws", toys, etc, buy the bottom of the line and get basically the same player.
There is nothing wrong with this , production engineers have been doing this stuff
for decades, it does keep prices down, and improves quality.
Keystone is great beer, its Coors "second rate " beer, comes off of the bottom of the vat,
Coors comes off of the top.
But I am a keystone kinda guy, have to be really, I cant afford the delusions that a lot of audiophiles cling to to differeniate their stuff from mass market stuff.
i'd love to have a Mcintosh amp, some Wilson watt puppies or vandersteins, but the cut in my lifestyle would be extreme, to understate things.
And I have never really been able, after a certain price point, been able to tell much difference in gear except for speakers, mainly because their isnt much difference.
People like me live at the edge of the law of diminishing returns, I got a big bang out of the
eight grand or so I put into my system, to double the quality I'd have to spend another
EIGHTY GRAND or so. And unless the local slots pay off, that aint gonna happen.
So I use what little knowledge I have gleened to filter out the BS from marketing,
and buy quality stuff.
I actually like to but at the lower price point in a product line, most in this price range have the same build, power supplies, but are simpler with none of the crap you dont need, and they fit my prefference for simple, well designed gear(keep it simple stupid):1:

[Mr Peabody]

There used to only be two manufacturers of the disc drive assemblies, Phillips and Sony. I think now there are more. A CD player is much more than that, you are just wrong on this. You can see it if you take the top off to compare a $300.00 unit to a $2k unit and I think 99% of the people could certainly hear the difference. If you can't, then it would be foolish to spend the money but you are the very small majority and you shouldn't make sweeping statements based on that. To say you can't hear the difference I'd like to know what you compared. My first eye opening experience was when I owned a unique Kenwood CD player that was even above there top of the line. My unit was only 16 bit, this is some years ago, Kenwood's normal top of the line was a first gen 20 bit. My unit killed it in sound. A couple years down the road I experience hearing my first Arcam, just the entry level, and it was so far beyond what I had ever heard.

There have been people here before like you Pix and I have no problem with some one with a modest system but I do have a problem with those people with modest systems who spread inaccuracies to try to keep everyone else at your level. Anyone reading this who is a novis will know which one of us is right, if they care and want the truth they will just have to hear for themselves. I also wouldn't consider $8k modest but I can't see how you spent $8k on an integra receiver and B&W speakers unless you have Nautilus. Maybe your view would be different with some wiser shopping.

[pixelthis]

There used to only be two manufacturers of the disc drive assemblies, Phillips and Sony. I think now there are more. A CD player is much more than that, you are just wrong on this. You can see it if you take the top off to compare a $300.00 unit to a $2k unit and I think 99% of the people could certainly hear the difference. If you can't, then it would be foolish to spend the money but you are the very small majority and you shouldn't make sweeping statements based on that. To say you can't hear the difference I'd like to know what you compared. My first eye opening experience was when I owned a unique Kenwood CD player that was even above there top of the line. My unit was only 16 bit, this is some years ago, Kenwood's normal top of the line was a first gen 20 bit. My unit killed it in sound. A couple years down the road I experience hearing my first Arcam, just the entry level, and it was so far beyond what I had ever heard.

There have been people here before like you Pix and I have no problem with some one with a modest system but I do have a problem with those people with modest systems who spread inaccuracies to try to keep everyone else at your level. Anyone reading this who is a novis will know which one of us is right, if they care and want the truth they will just have to hear for themselves. I also wouldn't consider $8k modest but I can't see how you spent $8k on an integra receiver and B&W speakers unless you have Nautilus. Maybe your view would be different with some wiser shopping.

That includes my cables, and HT gear.
I didnt say there wasnt a difference, I said there wasnt MUCH difference.
YOU HAVE TO SPEND A LARGER AMOUNT of coin to get a smaller result as you climb
up the food chain, the law of diminshing returns.
I have a pretty good ear, I can tell the diff between a cheap 128k mp3 and a well recorded
CD track, and I actually think SACD offers improvements over CD.
My favorite disc is stan getz and Gil gilberto, has the girl from Ipanema on it.
Quite an amazing disc.
I spend an equal amount of time listening to and analyzing music, the very slight improvement in sound just isnt justified at this point.
Used to be simpler in audio only days, but I love movies so much that I knew I would
have to compromise slightly on audio and get into HT, I think I have made some
pretty good compromises.
I do need to upgrade on CD playback, probably a Cambridge or something.
Thats higher up the priority list than a Blu ray, if that tells ya anything.
Music was my first love, after all.
Knew I'd get ya with that post, Mr P:1: