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Rich-n-Texas
11-26-2007, 03:26 PM
I finally broke down and bought a new printer, so I printed, scanned and then saved this Excel drawing. I'd like everyone's opinion about things like the distance between the right and left, front and back speaker locations, where I would want to put acoustic panels, whether or not Bass traps would help, where the best location for the sub would be, and anything else you could offer in the way of constructive criticism.

People have mentioned that my receiver is lacking, so I know an upgrade is looming.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/th_MediaRoomDimensions_edited-1.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/MediaRoomDimensions_edited-1.jpg)

musicman1999
11-26-2007, 03:54 PM
Start over, first the television centered on the west wall, the front speakers about 9-10 feet apart, surround speakers on the east wall as far apart as possible.I would also bring the front speakers a little farther out into the room, this should put your left front about where your sub is only a little farther out.As for sub placement you need to try putting the sub in your seating position and move around the room,which i think was suggested before, try it it works.King's chair should go ddirectly opposite your center channel speaker which is centered under or above your screen.A rectangle is what you are looking for or as close as you can get.Oh and they are right about your reciever, you have very nice speakers and they need something to make them sing, that Yamaha sure will not.You might try an Arcam,Cambridge Audio, or a higher end Denon perhaps.

bill

codecougar
11-26-2007, 04:05 PM
Everything's sort of nutty with your set up. I realize you are trying to deal with the area as best as possible, but that set up is far from ideal. I agree that a complete re-do is in order.

You want to try and get everything spaced as equally as possible. For example, having one surround 5' behind your head and the other 12' over your right shoulder just isn't going to work as it should.

bobsticks
11-26-2007, 04:10 PM
Hey Rich,

Haven't seen you around these parts in a hot minute, so welcome back. I too have a challenging room and somettimes you have to think outside the envelope. I would suggest reversing the placement, by having the mains approximately where the surrounds are.

1) If you reverse the positions you can place your mains equidistant from the seating position. I know you can manipulate the levels by lowering or raising individual channels but something always seemed janky about that.

2) Another advantage of doing this is that you can bring the speakers out farther from the wall. Just a guess, but this might improve your imaging.

I think when we discuss your receiver we need to be careful about what your goals are. The Yammie may not pack enough current to really get the B&W's singing to their utmost but it is certainly not lacking in processing power. If you don't plan on moving into the HD genre anytime soon, I would suggest looking at an external amp--maybe a multi-channel Rotel or something along those lines.

If however you're looking at grabbing a BluRay or HDDVD player, you might wanna consider one of the powerhouse models by Pioneer or Onkyo with bigger amp sections and HDMI 1.3 passthrough. Denon surely will come out with a model with these abilities too.

This should be a good conversation and I'm looking forward to hearing some of the suggestions by the old hands 'round these parts. Overall, good to have you back and let's hope we can get you where you want to go.

Cheers

Rich-n-Texas
11-26-2007, 04:14 PM
Thanks guys. The only problem with your suggestion about putting the TV on the west wall is that there is a large window there, which is depicted by the double bars in the drawing. I could put the TV and stand, which measures 5' wide on the east wall, and the audio cabinet (which I neglected to include) in the bedroom closet that's on the other side of that wall. That's something I've been tossing around.

Rich-n-Texas
11-26-2007, 04:17 PM
Everything's sort of nutty with your set up
:lol: That room is a reflection of my personality! Just ask GMichael! :D

Rich-n-Texas
11-26-2007, 04:21 PM
I appreciate your kind words Bobby, and yes I'm hoping for a good conversation to help bring some life to the board.

bobsticks
11-26-2007, 04:23 PM
Thanks guys. The only problem with your suggestion about putting the TV on the west wall is that there is a large window there, which is depicted by the double bars in the drawing. I could put the TV and stand, which measures 5' wide on the east wall, and the audio cabinet (which I neglected to include) in the bedroom closet that's on the other side of that wall. That's something I've been tossing around.

Nah, I'm sayin' base everything off the entertainment center being positioned on the north wall.

Wireworm5
11-26-2007, 05:35 PM
Since I'm unconventional, here's my unconventional advice.
The north wall is fine, but I would move entertainment center more to the middle. I would place front speakers 6 to 8ft. apart.
Move your listening position to center of room where the sofa is. Then I would place the surround speakers perpendicular to your listening position adjusting the time delay so that fronts, side and center arrive at ears at the same time. The sub, I like to have facing the front wall if front ported, placed at the back of the room, in your case south wall.
As for your receiver, IMO it depends on what level of sound you're happy with. A good receiver will give you good sound. Power amps or adding external power amps will give, very good to elite sound depending on the quality of amp/s.

Rich-n-Texas
11-26-2007, 05:42 PM
Nah, I'm sayin' base everything off the entertainment center being positioned on the north wall.
Understood. Musicman suggested the west wall...

When I first purchased the house, the north wall was where I put my SD TV entertainment center. The problem there was with the setting sun shining through the window and directly on the TV screen. I realize though that room darkening, or even just dark, lined drapes would solve that problem.

A definte advantage of setting up the audio and video cabinets on the north wall would be that I already have the rear channel wiring running down that wall, and from the attic perspective, snaking the coax and all down that wall is easily accessed.

The biggest obstacle IMO is the fireplace, which I can't do anything about.

Luvin Da Blues
11-26-2007, 05:45 PM
Gotta ask Rich...is that Avatar your new ride?

Rich-n-Texas
11-26-2007, 05:47 PM
No... my current ride, purchased new in 2000.

musicman1999
11-26-2007, 06:45 PM
Sorry i did not notice the glass, the extra light would complicate the video.The fire place does complicate things, whatever set up you settle on try to be linear, it makes things easier.
Adding amps might help, but it has been my experience that improving the processor will make a much bigger difference than adding amps.Of course doing both is preferable but if one
must come first, buy a processor and run it into the 5.1 inputs on your receiver and use it as an amp until you get a power amp to go with the processor.

bill

pixelthis
11-27-2007, 02:11 AM
This is probably the best you will be able to do.
the main problem with rooms with fireplaces is that most people (especially the "spousal unit") want the seating area to be centered around the fireplace.
The problem with a HT in such a room is that it competes for attention.
Anything you try will turn out worse, because your current setup allows for enjoyment of the fireplace and the HT at the same time.
About the only other place for it would be the "window" side.
Dont see anything wrong with putting a HT in front of the window, gets rid of glare
for sure, never had a problem with that.
Since you've been in the south for awhile you need to learn some of our sayings, main one being, "if it ain't broke don't fix it":1:

basite
11-27-2007, 11:08 AM
sit in the middle. you don't want your lef speaker to be much closer to you than your right speaker. center the tv so it's right in front of you, and move your speakers closer to eachother, I know B&W's are always bragging about their very wide dispersion, but that doesn't mean your speakers have to be miles away from eachother... from where you sit, 3metres between the front speakers is more than enough.

That would be the first things I'd do...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

GMichael
11-27-2007, 11:32 AM
Tough room dude. All I could think of has already been said.
I know that your receiver has no pre-outs, so an external amp is out. Maybe a receiver upgrade with HDMI is the best place to start. The new Onkyo's are all the rage these days. Be sure to get one with pre-outs so that you can add an amp later when funds roll in.
But let me ask you this. Does it sound like anything is missing to you? Got enough highs? Got enough base? Does it sound clear and crisp? Is it loud enough? What are your goals?

PeruvianSkies
11-27-2007, 11:47 AM
Rich,

I am a fanatic when it comes to room arrangements and am constantly redoing, reworking, and revamping rooms, either in my house or other peoples if they want me to. I developed a knack for this sort of thing and I have a few methods that typically help. The first is to empty the room out completely. Start with a blank page. Once the room is empty then you begin bringing in the non-negotiables, the absolutes. These are things that you know have a dedicated place, perhaps for practical reasons. Think about all the possibilities for these items and envision what it would look like with these items in place. Once that is done then think about your HT needs, which will often dictate the rest of the room in many respects. This is where things might get interesting. First you must decide what is practical and at the same time ideal. Right now your setup is not ideal, but it's practical and works with the confines of the room, but if you are trying to move more into the 'ideal' setup then something has to change. I would be first concerned about getting the main speakers (L,R,C) lined up evenly in relationship with the TV. Then I would determine a listening position that works with the furniture and works with the flow of the room. Note: most people are concerned with sq. ft. when it comes to space, but this is only one factor, the main factor that determines the size of a room is what I call 'flex space' that is: room that does NOT have to involve traffic flow. For example a doorway needs walking space and that walking space must go to another area of the house, therefore that space breaks up the room, so you can't exactly put a couch in front of that space. So determine a walking space and where that will need to go, what are the absolutes in this case.

After you have done this you should have a good setup, plan it out on paper, take measurements, think blank page. Don't be afraid to try a few new things, remember you can always change things back.

PeruvianSkies
11-27-2007, 11:56 AM
After looking at it and taking a look at your pictures to get a good idea as well, the way I would set it up would be to have your TV/entertainment center on the opposite wall that it is now, it should fit and there is a doorway that would be to the left of it, but the flow of people should still be fine. Then I'd turn around the couch and chair from where they are and perhaps move them back just a tad, even though they will be directly in front of the opening for the next room, but the flow should still be fine. Swap the location of where you have your surrounds with your mains, although I think you are using the same in this case, so no need to change them, but I would re-distance them properly and evenly to your setup. You might be able to put the couch a bit closer towards the fireplace, although it won't be facing it, maybe that's an issue. I would also think that getting rear surrounds that are mountable on the wall would be more ideal for your room, since the floorstanders obstruct the traffic flow along the wall.

Rich-n-Texas
11-27-2007, 06:56 PM
With but one exception, there is plenty of constructive criticism here and some great suggestions. I appreciate it.

GM, what I'm hoping for is #1, a major improvement in imaging when I'm watching a movie with DD or DTS audio or a DVD-A. As it stands, something resembling a surround experience is hit or miss at best. #2, much better frequency response across the entire range. We've talked previously about my situation with my sub and the lack of clear, thumping bass. At the other end, I want to be able to hear the drumstick hitting the cymbal before the I hear the cymbal's response. I have five tweeters atop five quality speakers so I don't see why I can't achieve that clearness as well as a crisp response. What I have right now is a lot of midrange coming mostly from the center channel, and while I understand that when watching movies or TV that's where the audio will be focused, again, there should be some sense of imaging in the room from where I'm sitting. That's not happening. Kex and others have told me that acoustic treatments are a must to catch early reflections, but at this point I don't feel it's a good idea to start putting up panels until I have the best speaker arrangement for the room.

PS, no doubt that by taking everything out of the room I would have a clean slate without anything to distract me. It would also be a good time to replace the 12 year old carpeting, but then I probably won't be able to afford a new receiver which would suck. Seriously though, right now the room contains the bare minumum from a furnishings standpoint, so I'll follow your advice to clear the room completely and get a good picture in my head before doing anything else. It looks like the south (opposite) wall is the front runner at this point, which automatically means darker drapes, but it is the longest wall in the room so it would easily accomodate the TV stand, audio cabinet as well as the mains with minimal seperation.

My concern wth an Onkyo relates to L.J's review and the popping noise during handshaking over the HDMI (IIRC). I haven't checked recently to see if there have been any updates to that; I was raised on Pioneer receivers so it looks like I've got some serious pondering to do. Is it a legitimate question to ask if the B&W's react better to a separates method over a do-it-all receiver?

I've got the PVR recording House right now; I like that show because his attitude reminds me of RL's, so I want to go watch it before bedtime.

Ober & out. Roger. who... huh...what?

musicman1999
11-27-2007, 07:28 PM
First step should be to replace your receiver, i believe most of your problems start there.
Separates would be better for sure but only you know your budget.When i added my Anthem processor it made the single biggest change in my system yet, opened my room right up and made my Focal speakers sing.

bill

bobsticks
11-27-2007, 07:42 PM
Hey Rich,

As far as the optimum setup for your Beemers, they're gonna love something with some current which will almost invariably lead you to seperates. However you might want to check out the Onkyo 905. From all reports the thing is a beast with a pretty massive amp section. There are a couple of reviews on various forums from happy users (hey, here's one: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-theater-components/6226-onkyo-905-review.html ) and I believe that our own Sloshy from over at Rave Recs uses one as well.

It is worth noting that the popping with the HDMI issue reported by L.J. and others was with the 805 and did not occur for many using external amps. There have been no such serious problems reported with the 905.

My own suggestion would be to change the configuration of your room and listen and tweak for a week or so. You may find this corrects most if not all of your issues (I guarantee your imaging will get better). If you decide you still need more juice or processing power take a 905 for a test drive.

Peace

pixelthis
11-28-2007, 01:04 AM
With but one exception, there is plenty of constructive criticism here and some great suggestions. I appreciate it.

GM, what I'm hoping for is #1, a major improvement in imaging when I'm watching a movie with DD or DTS audio or a DVD-A. As it stands, something resembling a surround experience is hit or miss at best. #2, much better frequency response across the entire range. We've talked previously about my situation with my sub and the lack of clear, thumping bass. At the other end, I want to be able to hear the drumstick hitting the cymbal before the I hear the cymbal's response. I have five tweeters atop five quality speakers so I don't see why I can't achieve that clearness as well as a crisp response. What I have right now is a lot of midrange coming mostly from the center channel, and while I understand that when watching movies or TV that's where the audio will be focused, again, there should be some sense of imaging in the room from where I'm sitting. That's not happening. Kex and others have told me that acoustic treatments are a must to catch early reflections, but at this point I don't feel it's a good idea to start putting up panels until I have the best speaker arrangement for the room.

PS, no doubt that by taking everything out of the room I would have a clean slate without anything to distract me. It would also be a good time to replace the 12 year old carpeting, but then I probably won't be able to afford a new receiver which would suck. Seriously though, right now the room contains the bare minumum from a furnishings standpoint, so I'll follow your advice to clear the room completely and get a good picture in my head before doing anything else. It looks like the south (opposite) wall is the front runner at this point, which automatically means darker drapes, but it is the longest wall in the room so it would easily accomodate the TV stand, audio cabinet as well as the mains with minimal seperation.

My concern wth an Onkyo relates to L.J's review and the popping noise during handshaking over the HDMI (IIRC). I haven't checked recently to see if there have been any updates to that; I was raised on Pioneer receivers so it looks like I've got some serious pondering to do. Is it a legitimate question to ask if the B&W's react better to a separates method over a do-it-all receiver?

I've got the PVR recording House right now; I like that show because his attitude reminds me of RL's, so I want to go watch it before bedtime.

Ober & out. Roger. who... huh...what?


I have an Integra receiver that is based on onkyo receivers (and built by onkyo)
A little bit more sophisicated than a comparable onkyo.
my b&w speakers run well on it, and it gets pretty loud but has never distorted
If you put your gear on the south wall it will compete with the fireplace.
This never works, but you can try it.
Or maybe you can put a flat screen over the fireplace and the speakers on either side...
OOPS! (sorry):ihih:

Rich-n-Texas
11-28-2007, 05:30 AM
I don't really use the fireplace anymore, and I don't have to deal with WAF at this time, so from a competion standpoint... not an issue. I'll check out the Onkyo, but can someone tell me how I interpret the specs so I'll know how the output current is indicated as it relates to the speakers?

Rich-n-Texas
11-28-2007, 05:38 AM
HEY!!! It's got TI parts in it!!! :thumbsup:

It's got... "high-performance parts from the likes of Texas Instruments."

Whaddaya think of that Burt?! :biggrin5:

basite
11-28-2007, 05:55 AM
HEY!!! It's got TI parts in it!!! :thumbsup:


duh :cornut:

Rich-n-Texas
11-30-2007, 12:07 PM
...I'll check out the Onkyo, but can someone tell me how I interpret the specs so I'll know how the output current is indicated as it relates to the speakers?
I'd really like to know how, by looking at specs, I interpret what would be a good match to my speakers from a "current" standpoint. Is there something in the speaker's specs that will tell me what to look for in the amp section spec? Thanks.

musicman1999
11-30-2007, 02:13 PM
Rich

If you are looking for a high current amp, i would stay away from the mass market receivers,
have a look at a Rotel.

bill

GMichael
11-30-2007, 02:28 PM
I'd really like to know how, by looking at specs, I interpret what would be a good match to my speakers from a "current" standpoint. Is there something in the speaker's specs that will tell me what to look for in the amp section spec? Thanks.

What are the specs on your speakers. Then we'll know what specs you need in an amp/receiver.

Rich-n-Texas
11-30-2007, 04:15 PM
Rich

If you are looking for a high current amp, i would stay away from the mass market receivers,
have a look at a Rotel.

bill
$$$:yikes:$$$ But it would be great to add Rotel to my sig.

I'll scan and post my speaker specs ASAP.

bobsticks
11-30-2007, 04:37 PM
$$$:yikes:$$$ But it would be great to add Rotel to my sig.

I'll scan and post my speaker specs ASAP.


Actually they're not that expensive. If you decided to forgo a receiver with the newest vid processing you could probably have yer cake and eat it too. An Onkyo 605 and a Rotel 1066 six-channel amp will still probably come in les than a 905.

I still think you need to optimize your room before you throw any more money at this.

Rich-n-Texas
11-30-2007, 04:55 PM
I agree Bobby. Replacing audio components ain't going to happen until the new year. I want to get the most out of my speakers, but I know just by virture of the fact that I'm a member here what the priorities are. This is the best time of the year to work in the attic and if I swap walls, rewiring will become much easier.

L.J.
11-30-2007, 05:16 PM
Gotta step up to the 705 to get preouts with Onkyo.

Rich-n-Texas
11-30-2007, 05:31 PM
That new Onkyo 905 is listed at $2K. I really don't think I need any video processing from an audio component. The TV does 1080p, and I'm probably going to invest in Bluray down the road.

L.J.
11-30-2007, 05:41 PM
That new Onkyo 905 is listed at $2K. I really don't think I need any video processing from an audio component. The TV does 1080p, and I'm probably going to invest in Bluray down the road.

Who said anything about the 905? The 705 is the first in line with preouts. Price is $600-700.

Bobsticks, have you got that 905 yet? I'm waiting to hear your thought on that.

Rich-n-Texas
11-30-2007, 05:48 PM
Huh?

Bobsticks did L.J. The same guy you just asked about it.

Did I rub you the wrong way somewhere along the line dude?

bobsticks
11-30-2007, 06:12 PM
Who said anything about the 905? The 705 is the first in line with preouts. Price is $600-700.

Bobsticks, have you got that 905 yet? I'm waiting to hear your thought on that.


Not yet. I went to Fry's a couple weeks ago and they didn't have any instock, and I kinda prefer to buy local just in case...

In the interim I have spent way to much money on Christmas for my peoples, though I have no regrets on that. It's also worth noting that I have already admitted to being a bad audiophile and not really a gearhead. Right now I'm pretty happy with the sounds I'm hearing but you know I'll get around to it sooner than later and I'll post up when I do.

L.J.
11-30-2007, 07:06 PM
Huh?

Bobsticks did L.J. The same guy you just asked about it.

Did I rub you the wrong way somewhere along the line dude?

Yeah, you gotta problem with that?




I'm just joking, I wasn't trying to be rude. Sorry if I came across that way :)

Rich-n-Texas
11-30-2007, 07:08 PM
Okay, if you're really serious, fix my remote! :biggrin5:

Rich-n-Texas
11-30-2007, 07:10 PM
Quit lurking LDB and say something!

L.J.
11-30-2007, 07:26 PM
Okay, if you're really serious, fix my remote! :biggrin5:

It's broke again! Man, mine got dropped in a cup of water and it's still working. I did loose the pause button though, but I just put pause on one of the LCD buttons so it's all good.

Rich-n-Texas
11-30-2007, 07:51 PM
No no, it's not broke. As a matter of fact the tilt sensor is starting to work better now for whatever reason.

Here's my latest dilema:

1) I start up the Watch TV activity
2) I press the media key which gives me my TV channel preset keys on the display
3) I press the device key to access functions for say, my TV

The problem is, I don't know how to get my TV channel presets back because when I press the Media key, this time nothing happens and my channel presets are no longer accesssible. The only way I know of to get the presets back is to point the remote away and press the Activity button again and then the Watch TV preset.

L.J.
11-30-2007, 08:08 PM
No no, it's not broke. As a matter of fact the tilt sensor is starting to work better now for whatever reason.

Here's my latest dilema:

1) I start up the Watch TV activity
2) I press the media key which gives me my TV channel preset keys on the display
3) I press the device key to access functions for say, my TV

The problem is, I don't know how to get my TV channel presets back because when I press the Media key, this time nothing happens and my channel presets are no longer accesssible. The only way I know of to get the presets back is to point the remote away and press the Activity button again and then the Watch TV preset.

You gotta keep pressing the "Activity" key until your "Watch TV" menu pops back up. Your media presets should be under there.

One thing you can do to avoid this is set whatever functions you want to the LCD buttons under that particular activity.

Rich-n-Texas
11-30-2007, 08:25 PM
So it sounds like by repeatedly pressing the Activity key, the remote will scroll through each programmed activity right?

Ah! Nevermind. By repeatedly pressing the Activity key, it toggles back-n-forth between the activities and the TV activity presets, and the Media keys reappear when I stop with the TV presets displayed. Thank you!

:Back to original topic:<RETURN topic original to>

Rich-n-Texas
12-01-2007, 08:47 AM
Here are the specs for my 804's:


http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/BWMatrix804.jpg

Is the Sensitivity spec or the power handling spec the one used to match up with the amp?

basite
12-01-2007, 11:17 AM
Here are the specs for my 804's:


http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/BWMatrix804.jpg

Is the Sensitivity spec or the power handling spec the one used to match up with the amp?


both actually...

they do have a big impedence swing, so I'd give them enough power, sensetivity rating seems normal at 89 db/m/2.83v (about 1watt);

I'd say a 100 watts for normal playing without cranking them, 150 or (and preferably more) more to get the most out of them. Also, since they have a pretty big impedence swing, get an amp with enough current...

Does your receiver have pre-outs? you could get a poweramp too and get a dedicated pre later on...
for High Current receivers, check out denon (but not the cheap ones) and rotel, or when you get a poweramp, definately check out parasound too...

usually, when the power increases noticably from 8 ohm to 4 ohm (not one wat more in 4 ohm than in 8 ohm or so eh), it's probably a higher current amp, the more it increases, the more current.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Rich-n-Texas
12-02-2007, 12:50 PM
both actually...

they do have a big impedence swing, so I'd give them enough power, sensetivity rating seems normal at 89 db/m/2.83v (about 1watt);
2.83 volts is what the crossover at the speaker sees right? Is that a constant value? Decibels, in this regard are a measure of volume or loudness? 89dBm divided by 2.83v = a large impeadence swing?


I'd say a 100 watts for normal playing without cranking them, 150 or (and preferably more) more to get the most out of them. Also, since they have a pretty big impedence swing, get an amp with enough current...
What I think I need to read here is a more specific explanation of "more current". That sounds too vague. More minimum RMS output current, more Dynamic power current... am I over-complicating again?

Here are the specs for the amp in my 5740:
Minimun RMS Output for front, center, surround, surround back: 85 watts
Dynamic power @ 8/6/4/2 ohms: 115/150/185/230


Does your receiver have pre-outs? you could get a poweramp too and get a dedicated pre later on...
No, and this compounds the problem I'm having trying to decide between an all-in-one or separates. Budget considerations don't seem to be a factor from what I gather here.

for High Current receivers, check out denon (but not the cheap ones) and rotel, or when you get a poweramp, definately check out parasound too...
Thanks for those suggestions


usually, when the power increases noticably from 8 ohm to 4 ohm (not one wat more in 4 ohm than in 8 ohm or so eh), it's probably a higher current amp, the more it increases, the more current.
That I understand. If resistance drops and voltage remains constant, an increase in current will increase power, in watts.

musicman1999
12-02-2007, 03:03 PM
Rich

don't over think your receiver search, there are more things to take into account than high current.Sound quality is more important than measurements.
Do you have any Cambridge Audio dealers in your area, if so give their 640r receiver a listen, it is far superior in sound to the mass marketers of the world.It does not have a lot of features, they concentrated on sound quality rather than a bunch of bells and whistles that you may never use.
But fix your room first.

bill

Rich-n-Texas
12-02-2007, 03:32 PM
I did some quick searches for higher end audio shops locally but haven't found any yet. Tweeter doesn't have a store in the Dallas area anymore, and the last time I went to the Magnolia HT room in my local BB, they were concentrated mostly on Denon audio equipment and Klipsch speakers. I'll check Cambridge's site and see if they have any dealers in my area.

musicman1999
12-02-2007, 08:55 PM
Be careful because you will like the Cambridge.

bill

pixelthis
12-03-2007, 01:37 AM
Outlaw.com has a nice line of amps you can hook into your receiver, then later you can upgrade to a pre-pro, replacing your receiver..
And you are overthinking the requirements on your speakers, B&W speakers love power,
true, but as long as your amp has an honest 100wpc or so dont worry.
As for current, a decent amp will be high current, this basically means robust.
With a standalone amp you can get by with 75w if your damping factor is high enough.
With a receiver you'll probably need 125 or so.
And dont worry about overpowering them, this is a rookie mistake, your speakers could handle 200 watts easily. This is because you'd be deaf and in jail for disturbing the peace before you could get them loud enough to do damage, however underpowering them
could send them into clipping.
Your current receiver can probably power these speakers fine if you dont get carried away, but its basically like a KIA 4 banger in a vette.
Outlaw has a decent seven channel amp for a decent price, check it out:1:

Rich-n-Texas
12-03-2007, 06:55 AM
Outlaw.com has a nice line of amps you can hook into your receiver, then later you can upgrade to a pre-pro, replacing your receiver..
I thought I had to have pre-outs in order to hook into my receiver? My Yamaha HTR 5740 doesn't have pre-outs so I'm assuming that if I go with a separate amp, I'll have to buy a pre-pro at the same time right? I understand that pre-pro means preamp-processor, and both stages are housed in one unit, right? Is, say a Pioneer RX-V receiver considered a pre-pro?

And you are overthinking the requirements on your speakers, B&W speakers love power, true, but as long as your amp has an honest 100wpc or so dont worry.
As for current, a decent amp will be high current, this basically means robust.
With a standalone amp you can get by with 75w if your damping factor is high enough.
With a receiver you'll probably need 125 or so.
I'll have to look at the 5740's specs again but I don't believe it produces the stated 100 watts (600x6) in reality.

And dont worry about overpowering them, this is a rookie mistake, your speakers could handle 200 watts easily. This is because you'd be deaf and in jail for disturbing the peace before you could get them loud enough to do damage, however underpowering them
could send them into clipping.
Your current receiver can probably power these speakers fine if you dont get carried away, but its basically like a KIA 4 banger in a vette.
Outlaw has a decent seven channel amp for a decent price, check it out:1:
"KIA 4 banger in a vette" That's embarrasing!

GMichael
12-03-2007, 07:26 AM
Hi Tex,

The receiver you have should sound fine at lower volumes. But those speakers can handle much more than it can put out. I'm not sure what your budget is or how fast you want to get to your goals. There are a few processors out there that are not badly priced. Outlaw, Adcom or the new Emotiva lines are affordable. These will let you get external amps that will give you more of what those speakers can do. Most any external amp will have enough power (and current) to make them sing. Of coarse, as you spend more, you'll get more. Each time you double the cost, you'll get about a 5% increase in sound. It's up to you, as far as what you can afford.
Another option is to pick up a mid level AVR like the Onkyo 905. (Other receivers are just as good or better depending on what you like) It will have more power than your current AVR and give you a little better sound right now.. When you have more cash, you can still add external amps as this model has pre-outs. Outlaw makes some decent mono-blocks for cheap. You could add two at first, then more later. An updated processor can be added to replace the receiver even farther down the line.

So, what kind of cash are you looking to spend? How far down this road do you want to go? Do you want to do it all in one swoop, or a little at a time?

GMichael
12-03-2007, 07:37 AM
A processor will have better sound than a receiver (AVR), but has no amps. You'll need external amps at the same time.

A receiver has amps build in so you can add external amps a little at a time (as long as it has pre-outs). Once you have all the amps you need, you could then replace the receiver with a processor.
Receivers tend to have all the latest bells & whistles sooner than most processors do unless you spend big bucks. Some of the cheaper processors don't have HDMI.

L.J.
12-03-2007, 08:17 AM
The Onkyo 905 is mid-level :yikes:

That's it. It's time for a new hobby.

GMichael
12-03-2007, 08:39 AM
The Onkyo 905 is mid-level :yikes:

That's it. It's time for a new hobby.

I guess it's a point of view. To you and me it's in the high level along with our Yammies. But on this board, they fall into the mid-level.

Rich-n-Texas
12-03-2007, 08:42 AM
Hi Tex,

The receiver you have should sound fine at lower volumes. But those speakers can handle much more than it can put out. I'm not sure what your budget is or how fast you want to get to your goals. There are a few processors out there that are not badly priced. Outlaw, Adcom or the new Emotiva lines are affordable. These will let you get external amps that will give you more of what those speakers can do. Most any external amp will have enough power (and current) to make them sing. Of coarse, as you spend more, you'll get more. Each time you double the cost, you'll get about a 5% increase in sound. It's up to you, as far as what you can afford.
An interesting analogy: The general rule for mods to increase the hot rod's HP was $100/horsepower. Just thought I'd throw that in...

I just looked at the Outlaw 7075: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7075.html It's rated at 7 x 75 watts RMS for $700, and if what Pix says is true, that should be okay.

Another option is to pick up a mid level AVR like the Onkyo 905. (Other receivers are just as good or better depending on what you like) It will have more power than your current AVR and give you a little better sound right now.. When you have more cash, you can still add external amps as this model has pre-outs. Outlaw makes some decent mono-blocks for cheap. You could add two at first, then more later. An updated processor can be added to replace the receiver even farther down the line.
The 905 is a beast and has a hefty price tag so I'd have to consider financing options (i.e. call my CC company and demand another year of 0% finance charge) to pay for it. It's got plenty of power and looks very future proof. If I were to buy an all-in-one similar to the 905, that's where it would stop. I grew up on Pioneer receivers, so that brand is the sentimental favorite and another one to consider.


So, what kind of cash are you looking to spend? How far down this road do you want to go? Do you want to do it all in one swoop, or a little at a time?
See above for questions 1 & 3 (Not to exceed $2K) After I get the room rearranged and rewired (questions coming on that aspect) which I'm planning to have completed by the end of this month, I'll start auditioning. Didn't we once or twice talk about you floating me a 0% interest loan? Or was that L.J.? :ihih:

Rich-n-Texas
12-03-2007, 08:43 AM
The Onkyo 905 is mid-level :yikes:

That's it. It's time for a new hobby.
Yeah, no sh!t!!!

Rich-n-Texas
12-03-2007, 08:44 AM
I guess it's a point of view. To you and me it's in the high level along with our Yammies. But on this board, they fall into the mid-level.
Yeah, no sh!t!!!

basite
12-03-2007, 08:47 AM
2.83 volts is what the crossover at the speaker sees right? Is that a constant value? Decibels, in this regard are a measure of volume or loudness? 89dBm divided by 2.83v = a large impeadence swing?


2.83 volts is in this case just another way of saying 1 watt, they don't use watt alot because of the different watts out there. Volt x Ampere = Watt, but when they say 89db/m/watt, that would be untrue if you were to use another amp as they used at B&W...

so, this is how you should read it: Your B&W's produce 89 decibels at 1 meter when they're being fed 2.83 volts.
The impedence swing cannot be calculated by those factors, your driver's impedence will differ at different frequencies (your woofers usually have more influence), that's an impedence swing, you can build a crossover to compensate those values though, but it will affect the sound.




What I think I need to read here is a more specific explanation of "more current". That sounds too vague. More minimum RMS output current, more Dynamic power current... am I over-complicating again?

Here are the specs for the amp in my 5740:
Minimun RMS Output for front, center, surround, surround back: 85 watts
Dynamic power @ 8/6/4/2 ohms: 115/150/185/230
.

current, as in ampere...

dynamic output is like 'peak level', the maximum output your amp can deliver for a few moments without clipping. dynamic power usually isn't for the entire frequency band. also, your amp won't be able to deliver it's full constant power in 2 ohms though. Usually receivers can't do this because they don't have enough current.

I hope that helped a little :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

L.J.
12-03-2007, 09:01 AM
Pioneer has 1.3 AVR's available. Get yourself one of those 12% off Best Buy coupons and you can pick one up from Magnolia for under 1K. I would also consider the Onkyo 805 though. This unit does not have the video capabilities of the 905 but should perform very close audio wise. It was on sale at Circuit City for $699 over the weekend. That is gonna be hard to beat. Take your time on the amps or go used from audiogon.

GMichael
12-03-2007, 09:17 AM
An interesting analogy: The general rule for mods to increase the hot rod's HP was $100/horsepower. Just thought I'd throw that in...

I caught it.


I just looked at the Outlaw 7075: http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7075.html It's rated at 7 x 75 watts RMS for $700, and if what Pix says is true, that should be okay.

That is 4 ohm stable so it should be good. I'd preffer a couple of these http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/2200.html and a decent AVR. The two (or three) mono blocks will give you plenty of juice for music and the AVR can still drive the rest of your speakers with no trouble.


The 905 is a beast and has a hefty price tag so I'd have to consider financing options (i.e. call my CC company and demand another year of 0% finance charge) to pay for it. It's got plenty of power and looks very future proof. If I were to buy an all-in-one similar to the 905, that's where it would stop. I grew up on Pioneer receivers, so that brand is the sentimental favorite and another one to consider.

I've been eying up the Yamaha RX-V1800. It seems to have everything I need. It would do great fo me untill I have enough cash to add amps from Parasound or (gulp) Classe'.
But even the HTR-6060 is a good unit, and then three Outlaw mono-blocks still fit in your budget with ease. Another way to go is to check out this link: http://www.emotiva.com/products.html

The system second down would do a fine job. Or you could mix and match. I kind of like the:
DMC-1 Preamplifier/Processor for $800. With the:
RPA-1 Reference Power Amplifier 200x2 (great for your mains) for $700 and the:
LPA-1 6/7 Channel Audio Power Amplifier for $450

You could even forgo the RPA-1 if you like. The LPA-1 would drive your mains fine, but the RPA-1 would be a step up for music.

basite
12-03-2007, 09:37 AM
you could always buy a full blown Mcintosh system :cornut:

nah, seriously, those emotiva's sure do look nice when you're on a budget.
personally, I think I'd prefer Parasound though, a pre and poweramp, great muscle at good prices for their performance, and they will handle your B&W's with ease :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

musicman1999
12-03-2007, 10:12 AM
Since your receiver has no pre-outs, you could go the other way and buy a new processor and run it into the 5.1 analog inputs, using the amps in your receiver as a power amp.Then later when more funds are available, add an amp.This will give you far better processing power and improved sound, since the processor make more of an impact on your sound than the amp section does.

bill

Rich-n-Texas
12-03-2007, 11:08 AM
2.83 volts is in this case just another way of saying 1 watt, they don't use watt alot because of the different watts out there. Volt x Ampere = Watt, but when they say 89db/m/watt, that would be untrue if you were to use another amp as they used at B&W...

so, this is how you should read it: Your B&W's produce 89 decibels at 1 meter when they're being fed 2.83 volts.
The impedence swing cannot be calculated by those factors, your driver's impedence will differ at different frequencies (your woofers usually have more influence), that's an impedence swing, you can build a crossover to compensate those values though, but it will affect the sound.




current, as in ampere...

dynamic output is like 'peak level', the maximum output your amp can deliver for a few moments without clipping. dynamic power usually isn't for the entire frequency band. also, your amp won't be able to deliver it's full constant power in 2 ohms though. Usually receivers can't do this because they don't have enough current.

I hope that helped a little :)
Thanks for that tutorial Bert, it helps alot. Dynamic power is peak power, RMS power is 70.?% of peak. I had electric shop in high school 30 some years ago; used to know all of my Ohm's law equations, but now that Oldtimers disease is setting in...

Notable in your explanation is: "Your B&W's produce 89 decibels at 1 meter when they're being fed 2.83 volts."

I would also consider the Onkyo 805 though. This unit does not have the video capabilities of the 905 but should perform very close audio wise. It was on sale at Circuit City for $699 over the weekend. That is gonna be hard to beat.
You're right... very hard to beat. Do I get the impression that NOW is the time to buy due to it being the holiday season? What do manufacturers do with prices after the new year starts? Do they have a history of raising them? When they introduce a new model (Onkyo TX-NR905) what do previously released model prices do in general? Is the 905 on store shelves yet?

Not sure I like that popping noise problem you talked about previously with the 805 though.

I've been eying up the Yamaha RX-V1800. It seems to have everything I need. It would do great fo me untill I have enough cash to add amps from Parasound or (gulp) Classe'.
But even the HTR-6060 is a good unit, and then three Outlaw mono-blocks still fit in your budget with ease. Another way to go is to check out this link: http://www.emotiva.com/products.html
Now you're making the decision even more difficult GM!:incazzato:

I didn't see anything in the specs for Emotiva's DMC-1 or MMC-1 regarding Dolby True HD, DD+ or DTS HD-MA capability. Future-proof features that I'd want in an HTR or pre/pro.

I work with a guy who has mono-blocks connected to his ribbons and sitting behind them on the floor. If they fit in my audio cabinet I have a feeling ventilation would become an issue. Is it safe to stack three, one on top of the other inside a cabinet? How much heat do they produce? The description says "large pancake style torroidal transformer enable us to deliver a cool yet potent performance." Is that a temperature reference?

Parasound gets a lot of attention and good reviews here, that's for sure.

I'm starting to lean towards an Onkyo, Yammie or Pioneer HTR, and then preamps down the road, especially if I'm looking at price increases after the holidays and have to make a choice sooner than I'd like.

GMichael
12-03-2007, 11:14 AM
I didn't see anything in the specs for Emotiva's DMC-1 or MMC-1 regarding Dolby True HD, DD+ or DTS HD-MA capability. Future-proof features that I'd want in an HTR or pre/pro.

.

That's what I meant by AVR's getting the latest and greatest bells and whistles before most pre-pros do. You'd have to spend a bit-o-cash to get a pre-pro that has those new formats.

PeruvianSkies
12-03-2007, 11:24 AM
You can thank certain people around here for boosting Pix's undeserving reputation, which occurred while you were away for several weeks, I won't mention any names, but let's just say it's the same group that likes to point fingers and accuse others of giving them negative points.

Rich-n-Texas
12-03-2007, 11:39 AM
You can thank certain people around here for boosting Pix's undeserving reputation, which occurred while you were away for several weeks, I won't mention any names, but let's just say it's the same group that likes to point fingers and accuse others of giving them negative points.
Understood bro. I know you very well and I know Pix very well; two decidedly different personalities but that's what makes this community thrive. Whenever you see me talking about chickletts, realize I talk with tongue-n-cheek.

Now how about giving me some advice about Parasounds and keeping this thread on topic. :)

Rich-n-Texas
12-03-2007, 11:43 AM
That's what I meant by AVR's getting the latest and greatest bells and whistles before most pre-pros do. You'd have to spend a bit-o-cash to get a pre-pro that has those new formats.
I see. Oh, I forgot to mention... Emotiva uses Motorola DSP's. Not acceptable!

L.J.
12-03-2007, 11:44 AM
You're right... very hard to beat. Do I get the impression that NOW is the time to buy due to it being the holiday season? What do manufacturers do with prices after the new year starts? Do they have a history of raising them? When they introduce a new model (Onkyo TX-NR905) what do previously released model prices do in general? Is the 905 on store shelves yet?

Not sure I like that popping noise problem you talked about previously with the 805 though.
.

I have only seen the 805 on sale at Circuit City. They just seem to randomly drop the price sometimes. It's never for very long though. Usually happens online only for a couple of hours on the weekend before 10am.

According to Bobsticks, the popping is amp related and people with external amps did not experience this. From what I read, it happened on every unit, including Integra. Also, some with the 805 or other units never experienced it. Maybe you'll get lucky!

Rich-n-Texas
12-03-2007, 11:50 AM
The 805 would certainly be an easy choice, what with all the info you provided. One good thing about message boards, every conversation is documented and is easily retrieved

Wireworm5
12-03-2007, 05:31 PM
The problem with having 5.1 or Multi-channel setup is a good pre-amp is expensive. Even I can't afford a multi-channel pre-amp so I use my av/receiver as a pre-amp. Of course you need the pre-outs on the back if you are going to upgrade down the road with external power amps.
Your other options is to go with something like the Outlaw already mentioned.
Personally I would go with a unit that has hdmi inputs and has an upscaler built in. Having toslink or optical ins and outs would be important to me. And from what I can see the Onkyo has only two optical ports.

musicman1999
12-03-2007, 05:43 PM
It does have 3 coax inputs.

bill

PeruvianSkies
12-03-2007, 09:43 PM
Now how about giving me some advice about Parasounds and keeping this thread on topic. :)

I constantly see Parasound units on Audiogon, especially the Halo A23 amp and pre-amp, which you could get combined for about 1K and would be an awesome combo that delivers for a great price. I am still on the fence about getting the pre-amp at this point only because I am trying to think long long term and determining my needs in the future. Since you are doing this for HT purposes I am not really sure what to recommend other than going with a receiver that can do 5.1 pre-outs and getting a 5-channel amp (maybe Outlaw) that could pump out the power to those B&W's.

pixelthis
12-04-2007, 01:54 AM
Understood bro. I know you very well and I know Pix very well; two decidedly different personalities but that's what makes this community thrive. Whenever you see me talking about chickletts, realize I talk with tongue-n-cheek.

Now how about giving me some advice about Parasounds and keeping this thread on topic. :)

Peruvian kinda went off the deep end for awhile, made me look good by comparason
(the Iranian president looked good by comparsion)

Get an Integra. This is basically Onkyos version of a lexus (which is a rebadged toyota)
Mine cost 1200 bucks, I PAID A 200 premium over a similar onkyo, but got a lot of style
points.
And your integra will have stuff like 12 volt triggers, etc, which will make it a great prepro
later on.
Only problem is that for everybody that sees it as a premium receiver , there are ones like the girl who asked me that if I was so into this why couldnt I afford something other than a "no name receiver"
Sorry about the bad pre out advice, thought sure yours had em:1:

Rich-n-Texas
12-04-2007, 05:32 AM
I keep reading about these "Trigger" outs. What the he!! are they? When I see the word trigger I think of oscilloscopes or logic analyzers. :confused:

I'll look at some Integra's and spend some time later at Audiogon.

musicman1999
12-04-2007, 05:51 AM
Trigger outs are power plugs that you would plug a downstream unit such as an amp that you want to power up when you turn on the receiver.

bill

Rich-n-Texas
12-04-2007, 05:57 AM
So there's a low voltage circuit in audio equipment that'll power up connected equipment. Thanks Bill. The dumb question would then be... why not just use the switched outlet found on *most* equipment?

GMichael
12-04-2007, 06:15 AM
So there's a low voltage circuit in audio equipment that'll power up connected equipment. Thanks Bill. The dumb question would then be... why not just use the switched outlet found on *most* equipment?

I think there is a possibility of damaging the amps buy cutting the power off and on this way. Maybe someone who actually has external amps could say for sure.

Rich-n-Texas
12-04-2007, 06:48 AM
Currently I'm using Dayton 12 awg OFC rope speaker wire to connect my rear speakers, which runs up one wall, across the attic, then down the back wall. Both ends terminate in wall plates. I realize that I'm violating construction codes but that's not an issue at all for me. This wire is a dream to work with so I really want to continue using it. Plus, I have nearly 50' left from a roll I bought for some short runs I had to make. By swapping all A/V equipment from its current location to the opposite wall, I'll be able to keep that wire in place. It's also my intention to duplicate the run and then bi-wire the surrounds since they have the connections for this method. Can anybody give me any reasons, other than the fact that I am seeing some corrosion on the bare wire ends, why this would not be a good idea? Again, this wire snakes down walls with incredible ease. :)

One other note: The Dayton wire is rated to 140 degrees, and though the attic gets quite hot, I've never felt any softness or anything to indicate a failure of the insulation.

Rich-n-Texas
12-05-2007, 04:03 PM
.............................
Well I guess it's safe to say there aren't any reason not to use the OFC wire, so I'll use it up.

pixelthis
12-06-2007, 01:56 AM
Well I guess it's safe to say there aren't any reason not to use the OFC wire, so I'll use it up.

I have never heard of any construction codes concerning speaker wire, cat cable, etc.
I think their main concern is with electrical wire, theres no way speaker wire will ever hurt anything.
As for the wire you have, 12 guage is ideal, so you're off to a good start.
But I would look at a higher quality pair for the fronts
My friend had a 200$ set of monsters, I replaced the spade lugs with bananas and the sound was really better than the other stuff I was using.
The surrounds arent as critical, however, people simply dont hear as well behind them.
I guess because in caveman days you didnt have to hear well behind you, if you heard ANYTHING behind you it was bad news:1:

basite
12-06-2007, 04:04 AM
My friend had a 200$ set of monsters, I replaced the spade lugs with bananas and the sound was really better than the other stuff I was using.


monsters are probably only 1 step up from regular speaker wire. If you want a real upgrade, go with Kimber, or audioquest, or Nordost, or MIT or so, but please, monster isn't the way to go if you're going high end.

as for the fact that speaker wires for the surrounds are not as critical as for the fronts, I'm partly with you...
it makes less difference, but you don't want the quality gap to be to big, differences will be heard...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Rich-n-Texas
12-06-2007, 05:19 AM
I have never heard of any construction codes concerning speaker wire, cat cable, etc.
I think their main concern is with electrical wire, theres no way speaker wire will ever hurt anything.
Maybe I was reading where someone was talking about new construction and pre-wiring.

As for the wire you have, 12 guage is ideal, so you're off to a good start.
But I would look at a higher quality pair for the fronts
Right now I'm using 14 awg bi-wired... I know, bi-wiring is useless right? Some of the receivers I'm looking at have assignable outputs so you can bi-amp the mains if you want. To me that sounds like a good thing to do.

My friend had a 200$ set of monsters, I replaced the spade lugs with bananas and the sound was really better than the other stuff I was using.
That kind of money would cut into my budget... I'll have to consider that step carefully.

...I guess because in caveman days you didnt have to hear well behind you, if you heard ANYTHING behind you it was bad news:1:
Like a big-a$$ T-Rex! :yikes:

pixelthis
12-07-2007, 12:41 AM
YOU GOT IT.
I never got into the whole cables thing, the monsters are probably as good as I need,
they are gold plate, insulated, large guage, etc.
I'm gomma let someone else put the kids of high end speaker wire makers through
college.
And bi-wiring is just like a lot of things the English advocate...
silly silly silly!

PeruvianSkies
12-07-2007, 12:51 AM
YOU GOT IT.
I never got into the whole cables thing, the monsters are probably as good as I need,
they are gold plate, insulated, large guage, etc.
I'm gomma let someone else put the kids of high end speaker wire makers through
college.
And bi-wiring is just like a lot of things the English advocate...
silly silly silly!

You are right, the monsters probably are 'as good as you need' because they are proportionate in cost to the rest of your system, but I wouldn't make a blanket statement that they couldn't be helpful to others, and they don't necessarily have to cost a ton of money. Cables shouldn't do anything but transfer the sound accurately between two places with no interference. If someone just bought a 50" HDTV and used the cables that came with it people would think they were strange, so why would someone with let's say a 50K or higher system use generic cables? They wouldn't, it's all about balance and proportion within a system.

basite
12-07-2007, 04:23 AM
And bi-wiring is just like a lot of things the English advocate...
silly silly silly!

yeah, you are quite right there :)

IMO, biwiring is only nessesary with speaker manufucturers that can't properly design a crossover :)

Rich-n-Texas
12-07-2007, 05:23 AM
You are right, the monsters probably are 'as good as you need' because they are proportionate in cost to the rest of your system, but I wouldn't make a blanket statement that they couldn't be helpful to others, and they don't necessarily have to cost a ton of money. Cables shouldn't do anything but transfer the sound accurately between two places with no interference. If someone just bought a 50" HDTV and used the cables that came with it people would think they were strange, so why would someone with let's say a 50K or higher system use generic cables? They wouldn't, it's all about balance and proportion within a system.
I agree 100% with this logic. I was a Monster anything hater until it was pointed out to me here that my receiver isn't in the same class as my speakers, so I think proper wiring with quality wire is a smart thing to do. With the next setup speaker distances will be shortened considerably, and if wire length IS a factor in sound quality the Monster Cable wire seems proportionate from a quality and cost standpoint.

IMO, biwiring is only nessesary with speaker manufucturers that can't properly design a crossover
I understand that's your opinion Bert, but if the likes of a B&W gives you the option by providing a set of terminals for the high frequency and the low frequency connections to the crossover, they must know something don't ya think?

johnny p
12-07-2007, 05:38 AM
I understand that's your opinion Bert, but if the likes of a B&W gives you the option by providing a set of terminals for the high frequency and the low frequency connections to the crossover, they must know something don't ya think?


Got my speakers yesterday, and had to read the manual to figure out how to wire the things (where I found that I could connect my + and - to just one Red/Black, just as every other speaker) Nothing like the feeling of getting a set of speakers, and not knowing how to connect them to the same source the old speakers came from!!!! I felt like (and still do) a complete idiot!

This thread helps a lot though.... now I know that I don't have to go to the effort to figure out how to bi-wire these things with my receiver (or new one)

basite
12-07-2007, 05:39 AM
I understand that's your opinion Bert, but if the likes of a B&W gives you the option by providing a set of terminals for the high frequency and the low frequency connections to the crossover, they must know something don't ya think?

yeah, but B&W also uses bi wiring because it gives you the ability to Bi amp, which, when done right, can be good...
and alot of today's brands use bi-wiring because it's a rage...

however, if you look at other exotic brands like Avalon, most of the Wilsons (I think), Thiel too, ... only use single wiring, because biwiring compromises the seamlessness of reproduction...

they've all got their theories, but I don't really need biwiring, nor do I need bi amping...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Rich-n-Texas
12-07-2007, 06:07 AM
Can it be said that the characteristics of certain types of wire lend themselves better to higher frequencies while others lend better to lower frequencies?

Rich-n-Texas
12-07-2007, 06:13 AM
Got my speakers yesterday, and had to read the manual to figure out how to wire the things (where I found that I could connect my + and - to just one Red/Black, just as every other speaker) Nothing like the feeling of getting a set of speakers, and not knowing how to connect them to the same source the old speakers came from!!!! I felt like (and still do) a complete idiot!

This thread helps a lot though.... now I know that I don't have to go to the effort to figure out how to bi-wire these things with my receiver (or new one)
Refresh my memory johnny p. What speakers did you purchase? For my rear speakers I use the included "gold plated" copper clip to connect the +'s and the -'s to eachother.

GMichael
12-07-2007, 06:28 AM
yeah, but B&W also uses bi wiring because it gives you the ability to Bi amp, which, when done right, can be good...
and alot of today's brands use bi-wiring because it's a rage...

however, if you look at other exotic brands like Avalon, most of the Wilsons (I think), Thiel too, ... only use single wiring, because biwiring compromises the seamlessness of reproduction...

they've all got their theories, but I don't really need biwiring, nor do I need bi amping...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

I agree 100%. Bi-wiring is very controversial. Does it help or doesn't it? It's been a big debate on more than one occasion. But bi-amping? Everyone seems to agree that this is very beneficial. I think that this is more of what B&W had in mind when they designed their speakers.

Rich, If you want to bi-wire, it sure won't do any harm. It will at least give you the equivalent of a larger gage wire.
Have you decided on what amp/receiver you are going to go with?

Rich-n-Texas
12-07-2007, 07:16 AM
I'm going to go with a receiver, then add an amp down the road. I read L.J.'s review as well as a CNet review of the Elite 91; I'll listen to it when I visit the Magnolia store but I'm not holding out too much hope for it. The Denon 2808, the Yamaha 1800 and the Onkyo 805 are on my short list, but I'll keep an open mind. They also list Marantz and McIntosh brands; don't know if they'll be available at this particular store but I'll audition them as well if I can. Next I'll do the L.J. buy - listen - return process until I find the one I like.

The new receiver will have the option to bi-amp the mains which I'll do, but it sounds like the Dayton wire would be better used in a different application, so I'll just use the existing wire for the rears.

L.J.
12-07-2007, 07:27 AM
Are you a reward zone member? You can use a 12% off coupon at Magnolia.

Rich-n-Texas
12-07-2007, 07:31 AM
No. How do I become one?

basite
12-07-2007, 07:36 AM
McIntosh brands


Bring money, lot's of it :)

they do only make seperates for surround though, no receivers there :)


Happy auditioning,
Bert.

L.J.
12-07-2007, 07:39 AM
No. How do I become one?

Sign up at BB. I think it costs 9.99. You get a coupon good for 10% & 12% off certain products including any Magnolia purchases. I think it comes every 2 months. Not sure how long you have to wait to get the coupon, but if you can't get one right away, I have one I could mail to you. It exp. on the 31st though.

musicman1999
12-07-2007, 07:42 AM
Rich

Instead of using those jumper plates on your speakers try this, replace them with short lengths of speaker wire.Makes a much better connection.About the whole bi-wiring thing, it has been my experience that bi-wiring is seldom helpful but bi-amping usually is helpful.I currently bi-amp my center channel speaker with good results, it seems to give a stronger, fuller sound to dialog.My pre-pro has dual center channel outputs so that makes it easy to do.

bill

Rich-n-Texas
12-07-2007, 08:04 AM
Rich

Instead of using those jumper plates on your speakers try this, replace them with short lengths of speaker wire. Makes a much better connection.
Ok. I'll do that. The rear channels are the ones where I have the plates in place.

About the whole bi-wiring thing, it has been my experience that bi-wiring is seldom helpful but bi-amping usually is helpful.I currently bi-amp my center channel speaker with good results, it seems to give a stronger, fuller sound to dialog.My pre-pro has dual center channel outputs so that makes it easy to do.

bill
I think what I'll do this weekend (because I like tweaking my setup) is replace all of the 14 awg wire that I'm using for the mains and center with the Dayton 12 awg OFC wire. I'll strip the speaker ends of the wire so I can just connect it to both sets of terminals.

You bring up a question though Bill. When bi-amping the mains, how important is it to do the same with the center? I know this has all been covered before, but I think for the sake of the new people (and myself) a fresh discussion is in order, no?

Luvin Da Blues
12-07-2007, 08:11 AM
When bi-amping the mains, how important is it to do the same with the center? I know this has all been covered before, but I think for the sake of the new people (and myself) a fresh discussion is in order, no?

How would you do this with a regular receiver when it only has one center channel amp section and no provisions to assign another section to it?

My Denon allows me to assign my surround back channels to the fronts but not for the center channel.

Rich-n-Texas
12-07-2007, 08:22 AM
How would you do this with a regular receiver when it only has one center channel amp section and no provisions to assign another section to it?

My Denon allows me to assign my surround back channels to the fronts but not for the center channel.
Dunno. Maybe it was a bonehead response on my part. :o

johnny p
12-07-2007, 08:27 AM
Refresh my memory johnny p. What speakers did you purchase? For my rear speakers I use the included "gold plated" copper clip to connect the +'s and the -'s to eachother.

I got the 686's (which WILL become my surrounds, but they're gonna be Mains for the time being) and I got an HTM7 for the center. I'm using the Sub and surrounds from my previous set for the time being, but a pair of 705's (along with some nice stands.... can't believe the price on those though!) will be ordered probably within 6 months.

I couldn't get everything I wanted because the wife is on Maternity leave, and the cost of a new kid, coupled with the loss of her income for quite awhile prevented me from a whole new set up..... but she's very open to new stuff in the near future. Here's the "to-do" in order of what I'm planning....

705's,
New Entertainment stand
Stands (four new ones)
Sub
new receiver

further down the line.....

Hair Plugs and dentures followed shortly by a custom installed home theater with stadium seating and whatever giant image producing mechanism that may or may not even be known as a "television" or "monitor" in the year 2050!

P.S. I got the HTM7 because my wife gave me the choice of getting the 686's and 685's, the matching center (not sure what the center 600 series is called, but the smaller, not the bigger) and the small sub, OR I could get the HTM7 and 686's, and get the 705's/sub in the future....... Good things come to those who wait......

johnny p
12-07-2007, 08:29 AM
I'm still using WAY TOO big of a sub, and some Cerwin Vega bookshelfs for surrounds.

Luvin Da Blues
12-07-2007, 08:30 AM
Dunno. Maybe it was a bonehead response on my part. :o

Not a bonehead response at all....Very feasible if your running separate amps for all the channels then you would only need a stereo amp for the center channel with both channels driving the speaker.

And Merry X-mas to you Rich :)

Rich-n-Texas
12-07-2007, 08:33 AM
Excellent choices all JP (except maybe for the hairplugs & dentures) :)

Rich-n-Texas
12-07-2007, 08:42 AM
Not a bonehead response at all....Very feasible if your running separate amps for all the channels then you would only need a stereo amp for the center channel with both channels driving the speaker.

And Merry X-mas to you Rich :)
Thanks LDB; same to you and everybody else who's helping me out here! I guess this is the scenario where GM's m-blocks suggestion comes in. I'm not seeing where it's all that necessary to pre-amp the rears, so maybe just a two channel and one separate for the center would work. My concern Bill (although I'm not certain) is that a pre-pro with lossless format decoding is going to cost big, if it's even available.

And let me throw this in because I didn't at the beginning of this topic... my listening habits are 50% music, 50% TV/DVD.

musicman1999
12-07-2007, 08:47 AM
You bring up a question though Bill. When bi-amping the mains, how important is it to do the same with the center? I know this has all been covered before, but I think for the sake of the new people (and myself) a fresh discussion is in order, no?

Well i am not sure it makes much difference as long as you make sure to re balance your levels to take into account the extra power each speaker is receiving. I do the center speaker only, mains are just fine on their own and i only had one extra amp channel.

bill

musicman1999
12-07-2007, 08:58 AM
[QUOTE=Rich-n-Texas]Thanks LDB; same to you and everybody else who's helping me out here! I guess this is the scenario where GM's m-blocks suggestion comes in. I'm not seeing where it's all that necessary to pre-amp the rears, so maybe just a two channel and one separate for the center would work. My concern Bill (although I'm not certain) is that a pre-pro with lossless format decoding is going to cost big, if it's even available.


I don't think there are any prepro available with lossless decoding nor would i expect any for a long while.I just use the 5.1 analog inputs and run the Bluray player from its 5.1 outputs and there is your uncompressed pcm and it sounds amazing.The high end guys are starting to bring out all analog multichannel preamps that require all processing to be done in the player
and sent by analog connection to the preamp and reports are that these are incredible sounding.

bill

musicman1999
12-07-2007, 08:59 AM
How would you do this with a regular receiver when it only has one center channel amp section and no provisions to assign another section to it?

My Denon allows me to assign my surround back channels to the fronts but not for the center channel.

LDB

It might work with a splitter.

bill

Luvin Da Blues
12-07-2007, 07:27 PM
LDB

It might work with a splitter.

bill


I'm a little confused by what you mean Bill....please elaborate.

musicman1999
12-07-2007, 07:50 PM
I'm a little confused by what you mean Bill....please elaborate.

Sorry man i was thinking pre-pro not reciever, the only way i could think of doing it with a reciever would be to use the center channel preout and an external amp for one set of posts and the reciever for the other set.Little more complicated and probably not work that well.



bill

Luvin Da Blues
12-07-2007, 09:54 PM
Sorry man i was thinking pre-pro not reciever, the only way i could think of doing it with a reciever would be to use the center channel preout and an external amp for one set of posts and the reciever for the other set.Little more complicated and probably not work that well.



bill

...or using a 2Ch amp from the center channel pre-outs (using a Y RCA ) should work also no?

Rich-n-Texas
12-27-2007, 07:05 AM
For my first installation I used Leviton wall plates and inserts for A/V distribution but I don't like them. Reason being the method for fastening the mounting brackets to the sheet rock sucks. I like these:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=261-432

I'll probably need an 8 gang plate; don't know if PE has one that size, but in any event I'm wondering if anyone's had experience with them?

Rich-n-Texas
12-27-2007, 12:10 PM
No. After further investigation I think a 2-gang with two 6 position inserts will do.

It's times like these that I wish Westcott was still frequenting this site because my next question is whether or not I should use binding post to binding post connectors, binding to banana or binding to solder tab.The connection inside the wall is a concern and I know he's got installation experience.

pixelthis
12-28-2007, 03:04 AM
No. After further investigation I think a 2-gang with two 6 position inserts will do.

It's times like these that I wish Westcott was still frequenting this site because my next question is whether or not I should use binding post to binding post connectors, binding to banana or binding to solder tab.The connection inside the wall is a concern and I know he's got installation experience.

Not a concern, really. Just run wire, attach it to the binding posts, and use bananas
for the speaker wire. I dont see as to why you need to solder anything

Rich-n-Texas
12-28-2007, 08:58 AM
BTW, please put the Jessica picture back in your avatar okay? We really don't need to see that hairy terrorist every time we read your middle-of-the-night posts ya know?

pixelthis
12-31-2007, 02:12 AM
BTW, please put the Jessica picture back in your avatar okay? We really don't need to see that hairy terrorist every time we read your middle-of-the-night posts ya know?

HEY! dont talk about rosie odonell that way! (although she is rather terrifying!)
I put that up, hoping someone would notice, nobody did, so its babe time again:1:

Rich-n-Texas
01-07-2008, 10:08 AM
I spent some time this weekend doing some wiring up in the attic for the new location and I was thinking about every connection I'm going to need since I hate working up there, so I want to get all wiring in place the first time around. Besides the wiring for the rear speakers, I plan on running one Cat5 cable for the potential connection to the new receiver, all the necessary RG-6 for the FIOS STB and an OTA directly from the antenna, and a digital cable for connection to a digital coax in on the receiver from my computer in another room so I can play iTunes music. The overall length of that IC will be about 40' with five connectors in the path (I have a ten ft. section of cable snaked in which I'll be connecting a 25' length to which will complete the overhead run). I'm going to assume that 40' run of digital (PCM) data won't suffer any loss or jitter, but correct me if I'm wrong.

The other thing I want to do is run another digital cable from the junction box at the new location to one at the old location and use it for my sub in the event it just doesn't work with it in front of or beside the new listening position. This run will probably be about 50' so will that much length be cause for concern? About 30' of that will be routed in the attic and will probably include one in-line connector.

Thanks!

pixelthis
01-08-2008, 12:58 AM
I spent some time this weekend doing some wiring up in the attic for the new location and I was thinking about every connection I'm going to need since I hate working up there, so I want to get all wiring in place the first time around. Besides the wiring for the rear speakers, I plan on running one Cat5 cable for the potential connection to the new receiver, all the necessary RG-6 for the FIOS STB and an OTA directly from the antenna, and a digital cable for connection to a digital coax in on the receiver from my computer in another room so I can play iTunes music. The overall length of that IC will be about 40' with five connectors in the path (I have a ten ft. section of cable snaked in which I'll be connecting a 25' length to which will complete the overhead run). I'm going to assume that 40' run of digital (PCM) data won't suffer any loss or jitter, but correct me if I'm wrong.

The other thing I want to do is run another digital cable from the junction box at the new location to one at the old location and use it for my sub in the event it just doesn't work with it in front of or beside the new listening position. This run will probably be about 50' so will that much length be cause for concern? About 30' of that will be routed in the attic and will probably include one in-line connector.

Thanks!

A digital cable for a sub? HUH?
:confused5:

Rich-n-Texas
01-08-2008, 05:32 AM
Didn't know there was a difference between the two. That's... shielded coax cable with RCA connectors.

Whatever.

pixelthis
01-09-2008, 12:48 AM
Didn't know there was a difference between the two. That's... shielded coax cable with RCA connectors.

Whatever.

Thats what I thought you meant, but while theres not a dimes worth of difference
its still a "rca" cable untill you plug it into a digital source.
Thats a long run you're talking about, try it first, maybe you wont have any problems.
If you do then a distribution amp of some kind will be called for.
Check out monoprice.com, theres a few other places you can look into also:1:

Rich-n-Texas
01-09-2008, 04:56 AM
Thanks Pix. That's the kind of answer I was looking for.

GMichael
01-09-2008, 07:23 AM
I think that Pixie is 100% correct here.
And Monoprice.com is a great company to deal with. I use them as a supplier here at work as well. You can return anything to them with no questions asked. Prices are great and Customer Service is top notch.

Rich-n-Texas
01-09-2008, 11:18 AM
Wow look at that! A response from someone other than bonehead (that's what I call my cats but it seems to fit here).

Yeah I'd like to be able to return a 50' coax cable in the event I don't need it or it ends up creating issues. This is all just forward thinking because again, working in my attic is a real b!tch. Remember this:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/House%20Pictures/th_100_0354.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/House%20Pictures/100_0354.jpg)

GMichael
01-09-2008, 11:26 AM
Wow look at that! A response from someone other than bonehead ]

Wow! I know that Pix is a little... well, let's just say, "off." But calling him a bonehead seems mean.

Rich-n-Texas
01-09-2008, 11:34 AM
If the shoe fits...

(It's great that we don't have to read his feeble attempts at humor for a whole day ya know?) :thumbsup:

pixelthis
01-10-2008, 02:30 AM
Wow! I know that Pix is a little... well, let's just say, "off." But calling him a bonehead seems mean.


Hes a yankee, he's always going to bite the hand that feeds him.

I put up with this from rich in his own mind, I get so much amusement at his efforts,
and his constant , neurotic almost, obsessing with details.
I walked into a stereo store and bought a 1200 dollar receiver, because with my knowledge base I knew just how good it was, and weighed the small advantages
of continuing the search. Decided this was about the best
rich has been searching for a receiver forever, I think the berlin wall was still up when he started, this is from wanting to make the perfect purchase, which aint gonna happen.
A product is never perfect , pick one out with the features and specs in the right price range, and hope for the best. most receivers these days are pretty good, and pretty generic, which is why I went Integra, seemed just a tad better than the rest
Rich is the type of guy, if he went to a whorehouse, all of the hookers would die from old age before he picked one out:1:

GMichael
01-10-2008, 06:06 AM
if he went to a whorehouse, all of the hookers would die from old age before he picked one out:1:

This is a bad thing?

pixelthis
01-11-2008, 12:19 AM
This is a bad thing?

I guess if you're into necrophillia it aint bad.
I prefer my women (paid or not) to be breathing, and hopefully, not drawing social security:1:

pixelthis
01-11-2008, 12:21 AM
Lets just say that if I'm being called a "bonehead" by someone who hooked a pair of Nautilus to a friggin HTIB then I must be doing something right
(and no, rich, you'll never live that down):1:

Rich-n-Texas
01-11-2008, 06:28 AM
You're memory is failing in your old age Pix. I don't own Nautilus, I own Matrix. I didn't say I connected them to my bookshelf surround sound system, I only asked if there was any harm in doing so.

But guess what? Since that player doesn't work anymore, I may integrate the mains from it, which have a 6 ohm midrange and tweeter along with a built-in 8 ohm sub that's wired separately in the cabinet, into my main system and eventually use them as surround back speakers. What's that do for ya oldtimer!:1:

GMichael
01-11-2008, 06:30 AM
I guess if you're into necrophillia it aint bad.
I prefer my women (paid or not) to be breathing, and hopefully, not drawing social security:1:

Why would anyone have to pay for their women? Dead or not.

Luvin Da Blues
01-11-2008, 06:43 AM
Why would anyone have to pay for their women? Dead or not.

I've always said, "The day I have to pay for it is the day I quit". But then I guess we all pay for it one way or another.

Rich-n-Texas
01-11-2008, 07:00 AM
:cryin: :cryin: :cryin:

GMichael
01-11-2008, 07:51 AM
I've always said, "The day I have to pay for it is the day I quit". But then I guess we all pay for it one way or another.

So true. Pop for pop, it may have been cheaper to pay a pro.
But wifey brings so much more to the table.

Sorry Rich,

I'm sure that misses Tex will came along when you aren't expecting her.

O'Shag
01-11-2008, 11:40 AM
Hi Rich,

Just a thought, but you could also consider putting the entertainment center/rack diagonally across the north and east wall. The negative is that it will eat up a bit of space, and if I understand the drawing correctly will cover the window located down in the corner, I'm presuming its a window but if its a doorless corridor then this wouldn;t work. A lot of folks don't consider the diagonal config, which can have real advantages, particularly with speaker performance. The diagonal approach negates a lot of the harmful first reflections.

Is that a corridor or a window down there at the north and east wall intersection?

Rich-n-Texas
01-11-2008, 12:16 PM
Hi O'Shag. Thanks for the suggestion. That opening leads to the common hallway for the bedrooms and bathroom. I see what you're saying; another benefit would be that the fireplace location would then become irrelevant but I would no longer be able to go to bed. Or go to the bathroom. :nonod:

By moving all of the equipment to the opposite wall I don't have to spend much effort drilling holes up in the attic or cutting out more sheetrock at the walls. The wiring for the surrounds in their current location will remain and it'll just be a matter of swapping the mains & surrounds. I drilled another hole in the south wall up in the attic because the existing one isn't wide enough to accomodate all the other wire and cable I'm going to stuff down there. The existing junction box on that wall will be removed, I'll widen the hole and and install a two-gang plate with plenty of provisions for everything that'll be connected to the receiver and TV.

I just put in an order for some lengths of digital coax at Monoprice (:thumbsup: guys) and when that stuff arrives I'll be ready to terminate all connections and move the A/V equipment.

So, all I have to do is get this done before I die of old age or Pix dies of high anxiety, whichever comes first. :rolleyes:

pixelthis
01-13-2008, 11:26 PM
Why would anyone have to pay for their women? Dead or not.

There are two types of men in the world, those who know that you ALWAYS pay for it,
and those who dont.
As for hooking up your clock radio speakers up to a decent receiver, go ahead,
but it would be easier to just light a cherry bomb and toss it into the top.
Speakers from such systems are generally from car stereos, and other generic uses, the six ohm should be a giveaway, and it certainly shouldnt be hooked to a 8 ohm out.
As for matrix vs nautilus, you might find it hard to beleive but I dont really care.
Its still like carmen Electra being married to Woody Allen:1:

pixelthis
01-13-2008, 11:27 PM
In other words a waste of a lot of good equipment:1:

GMichael
01-14-2008, 06:20 AM
There are two types of men in the world, those who know that you ALWAYS pay for it,
and those who dont.
As for hooking up your clock radio speakers up to a decent receiver, go ahead,
but it would be easier to just light a cherry bomb and toss it into the top.
Speakers from such systems are generally from car stereos, and other generic uses, the six ohm should be a giveaway, and it certainly shouldnt be hooked to a 8 ohm out.
As for matrix vs nautilus, you might find it hard to beleive but I dont really care.
Its still like carmen Electra being married to Woody Allen:1:

You know Pix, sometimes your mind wanders a little. Makes reading your posts a new adventure every time.
Now I have to go back and re-read all the other posts to see if I can figure out who you were talking to here.

Rich-n-Texas
01-14-2008, 06:36 AM
Attempted my first DIY acoustic panel this weekend. It started out with a trip to JoAnn fabrics to pick up some burlap (yes, I took Kex & Mr. P's advice and bought some $2.99/sq. yd. with the crease). I cut it so there'd be an extra 2" for the overlap on the back panel, then, with my righteous Suzie Homemaker steam iron, I ironed the he!! out of it. It worked! Needless to say I'll be back to that fabric store for more. They also have a lighter color along the same lines as the "natural" I purchased so that'll be good for color coordination.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/th_100_0501.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/100_0501.jpg)


Next I went over to Home Depot for backing board and mounting hardware. As luck would have it, they had a section in the lumber dept. with already cut 2' x 4' lengths of 1/4" birch plywood, but guess what, they also had MDF, 1/4" for $2.00 less so I bought two pieces. There were two problems with the MDF though. First, they're actually 49", not 48" as advertised... :rolleyes: but no big deal, I own a sabre saw. The other problem is that the board is warped. I thought that by pressing on the board while the tack spay I used was setting up would make the 703 "form" to the board but it didn't.

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/th_100_0504.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/Home%20Theater%20photos/100_0504.jpg)

I still have to finish spray tacking and stapling, but I wanted the panel to lay on its face overnight to be sure the stickum on the burlap side has plenty of time to set. I'll post more pics when they're up on the walls. Total time for this one was about 5 hours, which included some sanding of the MDF 'cause I didn't get it exactly square with the 703 when I mounted it :o , the learning curve and frequent breaks for the football games.

GMichael
01-14-2008, 06:56 AM
Very nice Tex. Looking good.

How'd you like those games this weekend? Who would have bet that of the two Mannings, Payton would be the one outed?

Rich-n-Texas
01-14-2008, 07:17 AM
Woulda never thunk it. I felt bad (believe it or not) for the Cowboys though. They really deserved a better outcome to a great season than to go out in the first round.

So what's Melvin up to today? :ihih:

Rich-n-Texas
01-14-2008, 10:54 AM
You know Pix, sometimes your mind wanders a little. Makes reading your posts a new adventure every time.
Now I have to go back and re-read all the other posts to see if I can figure out who you were talking to here.
:lol: My reading comprehension has improved ten-fold since he joined. :rolleyes:

I think he was talking about my idea of incorporating the speakers that came with my bookshelf 5.1 system into a 7.1 scenario in my media room.

Wouldn't it be something if Pix was actually a girl? It would explain a lot.

Rich-n-Texas
01-14-2008, 12:30 PM
I think that Pixie is 100% correct here.
And Monoprice.com is a great company to deal with. I use them as a supplier here at work as well. You can return anything to them with no questions asked. Prices are great and Customer Service is top notch.
My boss and I both tried to order parts from them on Saturday. I wanted three different lengths of their cheapest digital coax, 1 ea., and he wanted banana plugs and a fire-wire cable. Everything except the firewire cable is backordered. Not so good. I'm going to price out their next quality upgrade, but I have a feeling it's back to Parts Express.

pixelthis
01-15-2008, 12:28 AM
:lol: My reading comprehension has improved ten-fold since he joined. :rolleyes:

I think he was talking about my idea of incorporating the speakers that came with my bookshelf 5.1 system into a 7.1 scenario in my media room.

Wouldn't it be something if Pix was actually a girl? It would explain a lot.

a girl would still know more about HT than you do.
HAVE YOU NOTICED that the fairer sex is less represented on this and other HT/audio boards?
I have met a few, but largely they dont have the HT gene.
If you try that speaker hookup let me know when you plug it in, I'll look toward Texas
for the mushroom cloud:1:

Rich-n-Texas
01-15-2008, 05:31 AM
We need to turn Pix's one little green chicklett back to red.

GMichael
01-15-2008, 06:57 AM
Why would anyone want to play with Pixie's little chicklett? :idea:

Rich-n-Texas
01-15-2008, 07:12 AM
Anyway GM, I'm pi$$ed off at Monoprice. The 50' length of coax I'm looking for is a great price; no one else comes close but the site shows no stock and ETA = n/a. Their availability of parts in general leaves much to be desired. I think they employ the Just In Time method and don't get more inventory until a minimum amount of requestors get on the e-mail notification list, seems to me.

GMichael
01-15-2008, 10:10 AM
Anyway GM, I'm pi$$ed off at Monoprice. The 50' length of coax I'm looking for is a great price; no one else comes close but the site shows no stock and ETA = n/a. Their availability of parts in general leaves much to be desired. I think they employ the Just In Time method and don't get more inventory until a minimum amount of requestors get on the e-mail notification list, seems to me.

I'm starting to see that a lot on their site also. Either, they are switching manufacturers and are in a state of flux, or they are having trouble meeting demands, or are using the "just not in time method, or are having cash flow problems.

or
or
or....

GMichael
01-15-2008, 12:24 PM
Is the 9.68 one too much?

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236&cs_id=1023602&p_id=4098&seq=1&format=2

Or maybe you could go all out and spend11.39 on this http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10236&cs_id=1023603&p_id=2684&seq=1&format=2

Groundbeef
01-15-2008, 12:27 PM
So true. Pop for pop, it may have been cheaper to pay a pro.
But wifey brings so much more to the table.

Sorry Rich,

I'm sure that misses Tex will came along when you aren't expecting her.

Well, there have been several "prospects" in the last few years. But you keep ruining them at the Christmas Party.

You sir GM are a "ManWhore", and need to give Rich a chance. You've got your wife. Leave the others alone!

GMichael
01-15-2008, 12:33 PM
Well, there have been several "prospects" in the last few years. But you keep ruining them at the Christmas Party.

You sir GM are a "ManWhore", and need to give Rich a chance. You've got your wife. Leave the others alone!

It's not like I'm attacking them. I just give them what they ask for.

Besides, I did bring a couple of new girls to the party. Never touched them myself. Who's gonna be the first bidder on the camera footage from Rich's visit to their room?

Rich-n-Texas
01-15-2008, 12:41 PM
Thanks GM. I appreciate your efforts.

I looked at the one with the "Fancy connector"; it would probably work fine but I was a little concerned that the connector would stick out so far that it would cause the cable to kink itself against the back of the opposite wall after I attach the wall plate. I need to get the wiring task completed by the weekend so I'm just going to skip that run for the time being. This is just a precautionary measure anyway in the event I don't get good response from the sub. The Hooters girls will be back crawling around on the floor soon so they can get the best vibration from the sub and this time I won't distract them from their appointed duty. :thumbsup:

DAM I type slow. Look what I missed!

pixelthis
01-16-2008, 12:31 AM
Thanks GM. I appreciate your efforts.

I looked at the one with the "Fancy connector"; it would probably work fine but I was a little concerned that the connector would stick out so far that it would cause the cable to kink itself against the back of the opposite wall after I attach the wall plate. I need to get the wiring task completed by the weekend so I'm just going to skip that run for the time being. This is just a precautionary measure anyway in the event I don't get good response from the sub. The Hooters girls will be back crawling around on the floor soon so they can get the best vibration from the sub and this time I won't distract them from their appointed duty. :thumbsup:

DAM I type slow. Look what I missed!

Seek professional help. Now.
Yankees invading the south is bad enough, but CRAZY yankees....:1:

Rich-n-Texas
01-16-2008, 04:43 AM
Your posts are becoming less and less helpful Pix.

GMichael
01-16-2008, 05:58 AM
Rich,

If and when the time comes that you need or want to run that cable, you can cut out a larger hole in the back of the plate box so that the longer connectors work for you. I had to do this with my HDMI runs.

Pix,

What the heck are you talking about?:idea:

Rich-n-Texas
01-16-2008, 06:34 AM
This is what I'm using for the wall plate assy:

This is the cover... http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=261-115

This is the mounting bracket... http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=261-432

And this is the insert where the cable is connected... http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=261-408

As you can see, there is no box in this type of application. I decided to go this route because the mounting brackets that come with the Leviton plates @ Home Depot suck IMO. I like the fact that these black ones actually pull the bracket tight to the wall when you screw them in place.

Obviously this means that I have 4 inches of clearance (width of the stud) between the connection at the insert and the other wall, but I don't know how long the "Fancy connectors" molding is that provides the strain relief. I don't want too sharp of a bend at the connector because I'm then putting a lot of stress at the cable insertion point.

(Hopefully I'm drawing a good picture here)

GMichael
01-16-2008, 06:54 AM
This is what I'm using for the wall plate assy:

This is the cover... http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=261-115

This is the mounting bracket... http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=261-432

And this is the insert where the cable is connected... http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=261-408

As you can see, there is no box in this type of application. I decided to go this route because the mounting brackets that come with the Leviton plates @ Home Depot suck IMO. I like the fact that these black ones actually pull the bracket tight to the wall when you screw them in place.

Obviously this means that I have 4 inches of clearance (width of the stud) between the connection at the insert and the other wall, but I don't know how long the "Fancy connectors" molding is that provides the strain relief. I don't want too sharp of a bend at the connector because I'm then putting a lot of stress at the cable insertion point.

(Hopefully I'm drawing a good picture here)

Should work well. 4 inches is a lot more room than I had. I had to cut up the back of most of my boxes to get the connectors to all fit. It was my first stab at it. I'm learning from what you're doing this go around.

jim goulding
01-16-2008, 09:00 PM
Richadoo- As already suggested, entertainment center in the middle of your west wall. Front speakers on either side but well out in front of the plane of your EC and nearer to the ends of your EC than to your roomís corners. The width may be determined by the distance to your listening/viewing position , which should not be shorter. Your surrounds could mirror the placement of your front speakers or be on the opposing north and south walls behind your listening position. In either case, they can be nearer the wall. Put your chair in the virtual center. Your front speakers should be at an equilateral triangle and equidistant with your surrounds with your head at the apex. In this configuration, entry to the room may be a bit of a challenge but it will be worth it to you. Iím assuming that your surrounds are smaller than your front speakers. Sofa on the south wall or behind you. In your rendering, your room is just long enough to accommodate this. Open legged end tables. Carpet or rug on the floor (I use a higher than normal grade of foam plus a peat mat). In this configuration you neednít worry about reflection obscuring imaging or detail. Your presentation might sound a little more atmospheric if you leave your walls untreated is all, not necessarily a bad thing. We bad . . thatís right, we bad!!

Ps- If your EC is a big, deep, bulky affair with doors and all that, you may want something more discreet down the road.

pixelthis
01-17-2008, 12:16 AM
Rich,

If and when the time comes that you need or want to run that cable, you can cut out a larger hole in the back of the plate box so that the longer connectors work for you. I had to do this with my HDMI runs.

Pix,

What the heck are you talking about?:idea:

Rich and his imaginary hooters girls.
AND dont tell me they ARENT imaginary, as much as I love this hobby, if I had a bunch
of hooters girls running around HT would be the last thing on my mind.


And you want some helpfullness?
HERES SOMETHING THAT WILL WORK IN ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE,
if you are having a lot of trouble doing something, chances are that you're doing it wrong.
this falls under the old "fighting gators so long you forget your original task was to drain the swamp".
I have seen some installs with looong cable runs, but for myself I try to limit that,
for a variety of reasons.
Maybe you ought to rethink the concept of what you're trying to do.
Just a thought:1:

jim goulding
01-17-2008, 04:58 AM
Rich'n- Re-read your earlier info and see that you don't want to put TV in front of window. The same principles I suggested could apply if you were to use the north or south walls altho in that case your surrounds may need to adjusted, Remember equidistant with the front speakers to your listenng position if that can be made practical. Sofa, out of the way. BTW, there is some buzz starting in high places about 14awg Dayton High Definition Speaker Wire available in the current Parts Express catalog (part# 100-020) for . . get this . . $35.99 for fifty feet! Read about it in The Audiophile Voice. The author says not only he but 5 of his friends all with systems in excess of 35k (and a lot more in some cases, he adds) are currently using this. He challenges people to try it.

Rich-n-Texas
01-17-2008, 05:19 AM
...BTW, there is some buzz starting in high places about 14awg Dayton High Definition Speaker Wire available in the current Parts Express catalog (part# 100-020) for . . get this . . $35.99 for fifty feet! Read about it in The Audiophile Voice. The author says not only he but 5 of his friends all with systems in excess of 35k (and a lot more in some cases, he adds) are currently using this. He challenges people to try it.
I bought a 50' roll of 12 guage OFC from PE a while back so I want to use that to bi-amp the mains and also use it for the CC.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=100-024&CFID=10204708&CFTOKEN=28747731

This wire is a breeze to work with. It lays down flat and was real easy to snake down the wall.

Rich-n-Texas
01-17-2008, 05:28 AM
Rich and his imaginary hooters girls.
AND dont tell me they ARENT imaginary, as much as I love this hobby, if I had a bunch
of hooters girls running around HT would be the last thing on my mind.
Just for you Pix...

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/My%20cars/th_Hootersgirls1-1.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/My%20cars/Hootersgirls1-1.jpg)


And you want some helpfullness?
HERES SOMETHING THAT WILL WORK IN ALL ASPECTS OF LIFE,
if you are having a lot of trouble doing something, chances are that you're doing it wrong.
this falls under the old "fighting gators so long you forget your original task was to drain the swamp".
You seem to have an aversion to animals. :idea:

I have seen some installs with looong cable runs, but for myself I try to limit that,
for a variety of reasons.
Maybe you ought to rethink the concept of what you're trying to do.
Just a thought:1:
Well, like I said, the 50' digital coax run will be postponed. IF I still don't get good response from the sub after all the room treatments are in place I'll revisit that possibility. The nice thing about the wall plates I'm using now and have used in the past as well is that you can plug blank inserts in and just pop them out later if need be.

pixelthis
01-18-2008, 12:35 AM
Just for you Pix...

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/My%20cars/th_Hootersgirls1-1.jpg (http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n286/rich3fan/My%20cars/Hootersgirls1-1.jpg)


You seem to have an aversion to animals. :idea:

Well, like I said, the 50' digital coax run will be postponed. IF I still don't get good response from the sub after all the room treatments are in place I'll revisit that possibility. The nice thing about the wall plates I'm using now and have used in the past as well is that you can plug blank inserts in and just pop them out later if need be.
Is that the same as "shooting" blanks?
And I have a ton of pics of hooters girls, doesnt mean they come to my house.
The only one I know is now a nurse, thats how she worked her way through school.
Anyway, good luck on your system, I am afraid I would have to be "hands on" to be much help:1: