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L.J.
11-14-2007, 11:28 AM
After getting a HD DVD player I started to take more of an interest in the software and noticed that alot of titles have a DD+ track. My understanding is that DD+ is lossy & compressed like it's cousin DD, except the compression on DD+ is more efficient & it is capable of a higher bitrate. 3mbps is it's max, or is it 6? But we usually get it at 1.5mbps on HD DVD. If I'm off, please correct me!!!


How good is DD+? And why is it getting so much support? I ask because we are seeing hits like Transformers, Bourne Identity, King Kong, Shrek 3 and so on with a DD+. In certain cases, I'm assuming there just isn't any room for a lossless track like TrueHD, but I doubt this is true of every disc with only a DD+ track.

Why aren't we seeing it at it's full potential of 3 or 6 mbps? Backwards compatibility with existing gear right?

L.J.
11-14-2007, 03:43 PM
Hmmm.....perhaps I should have named this thread "Format war over BR wins!!!"

That would get a response or two.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
11-15-2007, 10:11 AM
After getting a HD DVD player I started to take more of an interest in the software and noticed that alot of titles have a DD+ track. My understanding is that DD+ is lossy & compressed like it's cousin DD, except the compression on DD+ is more efficient & it is capable of a higher bitrate. 3mbps is it's max, or is it 6? But we usually get it at 1.5mbps on HD DVD. If I'm off, please correct me!!!

You are actually quite correct except the maximum bitrate is 3mbps. The one thing to keep in mind is that DD+ is not all that effective until you have gone beyond 5.1. 640kbps DD on bluray, and 640 DD+ on HD DVD is exactly the same thing. Because Toshiba has chosen to to build HD DVD around the DVD format, Dolby needed to create a new codec to handle its shorter bitstream packet size. So DD created core plus additional packets for HD DVD that is not necessary for Bluray.

Roger Dressler himself has stated that DD+ becomes more efficient as you increase the amount of channels in use beyond 5.1. He has also stated that DD+ at 1.5mbps is only going to sound marginally better than 640kbps DD. He has stated that it is not going to hurt the audio to have a bitrate that high, but it is at a point of diminshing returns at 1.5mbps.



How good is DD+? And why is it getting so much support? I ask because we are seeing hits like Transformers, Bourne Identity, King Kong, Shrek 3 and so on with a DD+. In certain cases, I'm assuming there just isn't any room for a lossless track like TrueHD, but I doubt this is true of every disc with only a DD+ track.

Why aren't we seeing it at it's full potential of 3 or 6 mbps? Backwards compatibility with existing gear right?

DD+ sounds almost as good as full bit Dts IMO. It is getting alot of play on HD DVD basically because their supporting studios think it sounds good enough, and as demonstrated by Transformers there is capacity and bandwidth limitations.

King Kong, Transformers, Bourne Identity and Shrek are prime examples of capacity and bandwidth limitations. The HD DVD group believes that interactivity is the end all for the next generation format, and having HDi, multiple language tracks, PIP, and commentary going all at once is a strain on HD DVD bandwidth. That is why DD+ comes in handy.

You will probably not see any bitrates above 1.5mbps until more channels are utilized. 3mbps is designed for 7.1 and up.

Any more questions, let them fly bro bro!

Sir Terrence the Terrible
11-15-2007, 10:18 AM
Hmmm.....perhaps I should have named this thread "Format war over BR wins!!!"

That would get a response or two.


Hey, I came as fast as I could. I had business to take care of, and you what that was!

L.J.
11-15-2007, 12:58 PM
It's about time! JK

I hope this does not become the norm with HD-DVD. DD+ is nice and all but I would perfer a TrueHD or DTSMA track over extras any day.

Reading reviews like these really has me wanting Bluray to win this thing:

"Indeed, I had the opportunity to attend a special 'Transformers' media event with Paramount late last week, and the question was asked almost immediately -- why no Dolby TrueHD or uncompressed PCM? The studio's answer was that due to space limitations on the disc, the decision was made to limit the audio to Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround only (here at 1.5mbps). Unfortunately, this confirms the long-held theory that the 30Gb capacity of an HD-30 dual-layer HD DVD disc has forced studios to choose between offering a robust supplements package (as they've done here) and the very best in audio quality."


"The audio on 'Shrek the Third' is a comparative disappointment, if only because the film's engaging sound design deserves better than the Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround track (at 1.5mbps) that Paramount/DreamWorks provides here. Why the studio continues to eschew high-res audio on such major releases as this and the recent 'Transformers' remains a complete mystery to me."


Bluray has done a really good job at supporting lossless audio and I hope that trend continues .

Sir Terrence the Terrible
11-15-2007, 02:17 PM
It's about time! JK

I hope this does not become the norm with HD-DVD. DD+ is nice and all but I would perfer a TrueHD or DTSMA track over extras any day.

Reading reviews like these really has me wanting Bluray to win this thing:

"Indeed, I had the opportunity to attend a special 'Transformers' media event with Paramount late last week, and the question was asked almost immediately -- why no Dolby TrueHD or uncompressed PCM? The studio's answer was that due to space limitations on the disc, the decision was made to limit the audio to Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround only (here at 1.5mbps). Unfortunately, this confirms the long-held theory that the 30Gb capacity of an HD-30 dual-layer HD DVD disc has forced studios to choose between offering a robust supplements package (as they've done here) and the very best in audio quality."


"The audio on 'Shrek the Third' is a comparative disappointment, if only because the film's engaging sound design deserves better than the Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround track (at 1.5mbps) that Paramount/DreamWorks provides here. Why the studio continues to eschew high-res audio on such major releases as this and the recent 'Transformers' remains a complete mystery to me."


Bluray has done a really good job at supporting lossless audio and I hope that trend continues .

One of the things that has me sold on bluray, is that they support ALL of the video codecs, and ALL of the audio codecs as well. HD DVD supports one video codec(VC-1) and essentially DD+, and to a lesser extent DTHD. Out of my 140 or so HD DVD titles, only 25 have DTHD tracks. Out of my 230 BR, I have 180 with uncompressed PCM, 20 or so more with Dts MA lossless, and about 30 more with DTHD tracks and uncompressed PCM both included.

This is the format for today and tomorrow.

pixelthis
11-15-2007, 02:54 PM
It's about time! JK

I hope this does not become the norm with HD-DVD. DD+ is nice and all but I would perfer a TrueHD or DTSMA track over extras any day.

Reading reviews like these really has me wanting Bluray to win this thing:

"Indeed, I had the opportunity to attend a special 'Transformers' media event with Paramount late last week, and the question was asked almost immediately -- why no Dolby TrueHD or uncompressed PCM? The studio's answer was that due to space limitations on the disc, the decision was made to limit the audio to Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround only (here at 1.5mbps). Unfortunately, this confirms the long-held theory that the 30Gb capacity of an HD-30 dual-layer HD DVD disc has forced studios to choose between offering a robust supplements package (as they've done here) and the very best in audio quality."


"The audio on 'Shrek the Third' is a comparative disappointment, if only because the film's engaging sound design deserves better than the Dolby Digital-Plus 5.1 Surround track (at 1.5mbps) that Paramount/DreamWorks provides here. Why the studio continues to eschew high-res audio on such major releases as this and the recent 'Transformers' remains a complete mystery to me."


Bluray has done a really good job at supporting lossless audio and I hope that trend continues .

This is what I have been saying, and is one of the key reasons there is such widespread
industry support for Blu-ray.
30 gigs is small enough, but add a bunch of "interactive" gee-gaws that a movie watcher like myself couldn't care less about and you are pushing the boundries, so where is the chance for growth?
The reason for HD's limited growth is the way the grooves are cut into the disc.
This allowed the use of older equipment, which led to the earlier initial lower cost,
but limits the size of a single layer.
Blu ray has a more advanced system with much finer grooves, allowing for 50 gigs
out of the box, HD is always going to be an inferiour system, the use of VC can also be used by BLU, BTW.
Why on earth would anybody (save clueless types like groundbeef) support an already inferior system? If we are going to have a new disc system it needs to be as robust technologically as possible, it needs to be the best we can do NOW, and allow for possible growth, so a few years down the road we don't get stuck paying for yet another system.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
11-15-2007, 03:28 PM
This is what I have been saying, and is one of the key reasons there is such widespread
industry support for Blu-ray.
30 gigs is small enough, but add a bunch of "interactive" gee-gaws that a movie watcher like myself couldn't care less about and you are pushing the boundries, so where is the chance for growth?
The reason for HD's limited growth is the way the grooves are cut into the disc.
This allowed the use of older equipment, which led to the earlier initial lower cost,
but limits the size of a single layer.
Blu ray has a more advanced system with much finer grooves, allowing for 50 gigs
out of the box, HD is always going to be an inferiour system, the use of VC can also be used by BLU, BTW.
Why on earth would anybody (save clueless types like groundbeef) support an already inferior system? If we are going to have a new disc system it needs to be as robust technologically as possible, it needs to be the best we can do NOW, and allow for possible growth, so a few years down the road we don't get stuck paying for yet another system.

Pixel type individual, neither bluray nor HD DVD uses grooves. That would be pits. I knew what you meant though. Oh, and I agree with your post.

L.J.
11-15-2007, 08:40 PM
Woohoo! Pix I just bumped you back into green rep territory. Enjoy while you can. I'm sure the leech will be around soon to bump ya back down again.

I know, I know.....who cares about the little dot under their name. Well, the little leech sure does!

drseid
11-16-2007, 01:51 AM
One of the things that has me sold on bluray, is that they support ALL of the video codecs, and ALL of the audio codecs as well. HD DVD supports one video codec(VC-1) and essentially DD+, and to a lesser extent DTHD. Out of my 140 or so HD DVD titles, only 25 have DTHD tracks. Out of my 230 BR, I have 180 with uncompressed PCM, 20 or so more with Dts MA lossless, and about 30 more with DTHD tracks and uncompressed PCM both included.

This is the format for today and tomorrow.

I am pretty sure I have seen a few HD DVDs with the AVC/MPEG-4 encodes as well...

As for BR being the format for today and tomorrow... I would argue it may only be the format for tomorrow as the specs seem to still be evolving. The interactivity aspect is a huge letdown right now and HD DVD runs rings around it it that area IMO. I never was a huge fan of interactivity anyway, so I guess it is not a big deal to me, but some of the things HD DVD can do in that area have actually made me take some interest in it. I also am a big fan of the online abilities of the HD DVD format... BR will eventually get there, but for now HD DVD is where it is at for interactive features IMO.

I concur that HD DVD's audio side is extremely disappointing to folks like us who care about it (this is an audio board after all). I certainly hope that HD DVD can get more lossless tracks on their discs as that is important to me and it does make a difference to the movie watching experience for those who have the equipment to realize it. I am beginning to suspect that they wont, as Joe6pack most likely could not tell the difference on their Bose system anyway (no demand from the general public, to my chagrin). Too bad, really. :-(

---Dave

drseid
11-16-2007, 02:03 AM
After getting a HD DVD player I started to take more of an interest in the software and noticed that alot of titles have a DD+ track. My understanding is that DD+ is lossy & compressed like it's cousin DD, except the compression on DD+ is more efficient & it is capable of a higher bitrate. 3mbps is it's max, or is it 6? But we usually get it at 1.5mbps on HD DVD. If I'm off, please correct me!!!


How good is DD+? And why is it getting so much support? I ask because we are seeing hits like Transformers, Bourne Identity, King Kong, Shrek 3 and so on with a DD+. In certain cases, I'm assuming there just isn't any room for a lossless track like TrueHD, but I doubt this is true of every disc with only a DD+ track.

Why aren't we seeing it at it's full potential of 3 or 6 mbps? Backwards compatibility with existing gear right?

As Sir T has mentioned, I think space is an issue on at least a couple titles (Transformers and King Kong). I think the others were just cheap shortcuts and I don't know why. Quite frankly, I don't really believe it is a space issue at all for the most part... I think that is just a copout from the studios who just don't want to do it for some reason. There are a couple big studio offenders that pretty much don't release anything in lossless, and it most likely ain't space constraints causing them not to. :incazzato:

---Dave

pixelthis
11-16-2007, 03:07 PM
Woohoo! Pix I just bumped you back into green rep territory. Enjoy while you can. I'm sure the leech will be around soon to bump ya back down again.

I know, I know.....who cares about the little dot under their name. Well, the little leech sure does!

A leech with the initals PS who has a lot of growing up to do?

Sorry about the use of the term "groove" but it is quite often used by various types
when talking about any type disc, kinda hard to get out of the habit when the only
"disc" you had for ten years had grooves (LP records)
Anyway you get my point, mainly that you can pack more into a layer with BLU.

And I am glad that the "leech" pisses off other people, thought it was just me
(although I can be a pain sometimes):5:

Sir Terrence the Terrible
11-16-2007, 03:30 PM
I am pretty sure I have seen a few HD DVDs with the AVC/MPEG-4 encodes as well...

Dave, its a handful, and for MPEG-2 its about the same.


As for BR being the format for today and tomorrow... I would argue it may only be the format for tomorrow as the specs seem to still be evolving. The interactivity aspect is a huge letdown right now and HD DVD runs rings around it it that area IMO.

Warner, Universal and Sony did a huge survey(I think I have mentioned this before) on interactivity, and they found that there is alot less interest in interactivity than one would think. On that same survey, they found that people who look at the extras never do more than one time, and they are a small percentage of overall viewers. When asked what the most important thing to them concerning the next generation formats, picture and sound were the top two. It was clear that interactivity is not a selling point, and is not an advantage to either format.




I never was a huge fan of interactivity anyway, so I guess it is not a big deal to me, but some of the things HD DVD can do in that area have actually made me take some interest in it. I also am a big fan of the online abilities of the HD DVD format... BR will eventually get there, but for now HD DVD is where it is at for interactive features IMO.

You are actually the majority in the interactivity camp. At the end of December a whole bunch of BR players will get an update that will make them as interactive as any HD DVD player. I am not sure this really will mean anything because it seems the majority of bluray owners(at least polled on Bluray.com) have no real interest in it. But this will official end any advantage in interactivity that HD DVD players have.


I concur that HD DVD's audio side is extremely disappointing to folks like us who care about it (this is an audio board after all). I certainly hope that HD DVD can get more lossless tracks on their discs as that is important to me and it does make a difference to the movie watching experience for those who have the equipment to realize it. I am beginning to suspect that they wont, as Joe6pack most likely could not tell the difference on their Bose system anyway (no demand from the general public, to my chagrin). Too bad, really. :-(

---Dave

It seems that the HD DVD exclusive studios have taken a good enough attitude rather than taking the best and superior one. This is part of the reason that I only buy HD DVD disc if I really want the title, as opposed to replacing my DVD's with HD DVD disc. The prices for the each formats disc are about the same, but I always feel like I am getting more for my buck from a Bluray title. Universal IMO is killing this format with a bunch of mediocre releases, alot of them, but mediocre PQ and lossy audio. When I bought my player, I had high hopes for this format. However I have been very disappointed with HD DVD because I just do not think I am getting all that the format can deliver.