Toshiba HD-A2 Owners

[salad 419]

Hey, I'm in the market for a new source as my $39 DVD player may not be the best source for listening to CD's. Since the HD-A2 is only $98, lately I was wondering how it may do for CD playback.

For the record, I don't own any HD TV, so HD video and upconversion are useless at the moment. I'm in need of a "better" CD player but on a budget of ZERO, but may be able to trick the wife on this one????


PS(edit), The rest of the system is as follows:
HK AV-245
Quad 22L Mains, L-Center, Axiom QS-8 Surrounds

[L.J.]

Have you thought about ebay or audiogon for a CD player?

I assume your using a digital connection to your HK. You would need a player with better DAC's than your HK for an improvement in sound.

[salad 419]

I actually am using the Analog outs from the DVD player. I found HUGE improvements in sound quality when I switched from the Coaxial Outs to the analog outs.

I've thought about Audiogon and Ebay for a player. Just seeing if this was a "better/cheaper option":confused5:

[L.J.]

Interesting, I would assume that the HK would have higher quality DAC's. Hard to say if the A2 would give any improvements. Is it even still available for $98? Last I heard, that sell was over.

[pixelthis]

With a few exceptions DVD players have always been piss poor for CD playback.
They just arent made for it.
You can get a generic five disc changer for that much or less, you'd be surprized at how
good they sound (I was)
I was using a laserdisc for CD also, a friend got a cheap "teac" five disc, I couldnt beleive
how good it sounded. I got a yamaha five disc and it sounded great also.
If you get the HD get it for video, I doubt if CD playback is a major part of the design,
like most new "receivers" that have their entire tuner on a single chip:1:

[PeruvianSkies]

With a few exceptions DVD players have always been piss poor for CD playback.
They just arent made for it.
You can get a generic five disc changer for that much or less, you'd be surprized at how
good they sound (I was)
I was using a laserdisc for CD also, a friend got a cheap "teac" five disc, I couldnt beleive
how good it sounded. I got a yamaha five disc and it sounded great also.
If you get the HD get it for video, I doubt if CD playback is a major part of the design,
like most new "receivers" that have their entire tuner on a single chip:1:


Anyone who takes listening seriously when it comes to CD's wouldn't be caught dead with a carousel unit in their setup. And you would think that someone who claims to have your knowledge of things would know that firsthand, then again I doubt with your setup that you would notice how good or bad a carousel unit can be, but you certainly don't see high-end manufacturers selling carousels and there is a reason for that.

[Groundbeef]

Anyone who takes listening seriously when it comes to CD's wouldn't be caught dead with a carousel unit in their setup. And you would think that someone who claims to have your knowledge of things would know that firsthand, then again I doubt with your setup that you would notice how good or bad a carousel unit can be, but you certainly don't see high-end manufacturers selling carousels and there is a reason for that.

When you say "carousel" does that included cd players with "changers" in them? How would that affect playback. I honestly don't know, and just wondering how a changer/carousel would affect playback.

[PeruvianSkies]

When you say "carousel" does that included cd players with "changers" in them? How would that affect playback. I honestly don't know, and just wondering how a changer/carousel would affect playback.

Often the biggest problem is the time-alignment and the mechanical aspects inside them often times mis-align the discs to small degrees, which can result in problematic playback, this doesn't mean you are hearing a problem, but you are not hearing everything you could or should. A single-loading mechanism and high-end player puts lots of time, effort, and energy into developing a mechanism that allows the CD to balance properly inside the tray for accurate laser reading and time-alignment. Carousel units do not feature these things, they are made primarily as a feature that is convenient for people who like to play multiple discs in settings such as a party where you don't want to keep changing discs.

[GMichael]

How about a single loading CD-R with a hard drive that let's you save a goodly amount of CD's?

[Woochifer]

If you don't have a HDTV and you're fine with your existing DVD player playback, there's no reason whatsoever to make the upgrade at this time. HD-DVD player prices will continue to plunge, and that $98 special is on a discontinued early model that lacks 1080p capability and HDMI 1.3. Get the HD-DVD player when you're ready, and by that time the $98 price point might very well be the norm for models with more up-to-date feature sets and more of the bugs worked out.

If you want improved CD player playback, look to a standalone CD player, or perhaps even something that can play multichannel music discs like a CD/SACD changer (Sony's entry level CD/SACD changers have been very well reviewed for their CD playback) or a universal player that does DVDs, SACDs, and DVD-As. Even if you don't use those players for multichannel music (admittedly, the discs are getting hard to find nowadays), they typically include higher quality DACs and output circuitry than you would typically find in an entry level DVD player.

Also, if you're noticing huge differences between your coaxial digital and analog playback, you should first make sure that your listenings are truly equal -- i.e., same output levels (louder usually equates to better when doing uncontrolled A/B comparisons), same DSP settings, same bass management settings, etc. Generally, under more controlled conditions, any differences will be more subtle than huge/obvious

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Often the biggest problem is the time-alignment and the mechanical aspects inside them often times mis-align the discs to small degrees, which can result in problematic playback, this doesn't mean you are hearing a problem, but you are not hearing everything you could or should. A single-loading mechanism and high-end player puts lots of time, effort, and energy into developing a mechanism that allows the CD to balance properly inside the tray for accurate laser reading and time-alignment. Carousel units do not feature these things, they are made primarily as a feature that is convenient for people who like to play multiple discs in settings such as a party where you don't want to keep changing discs.

PS,
This is a blanket statement, and not reflective of my experience with carousel CD players. Either the laser reads the discs information, or it does not. There is no such thing as half reading the zero and ones. A misalignment no matter how small will result in the player not being able to read a disc, or it skip out alltogether. It will not result in you not hearing all everything you could as you state.

The Sony 300 CD changer is a highly reviewed both in sound quality and in overall durability over time. They have been making changers for years, and most all have received pretty high marks for durablity and sound quality. Technics, Denon, Yamaha all have changers that have received high marks for their changers as well.

[Woochifer]

This is a blanket statement, and not reflective of my experience with carousel CD players. Either the laser reads the discs information, or it does not. There is no such thing as half reading the zero and ones. A misalignment no matter how small will result in the player not being able to read a disc, or it skip out alltogether. It will not result in you not hearing all everything you could as you state.

Not to mention the fact that CDs have the built-in 8-bit CIRC code that underlies the 16-bit audio data. With the CIRC code in place, it's possible to have a CD playback with no read errors, even with the physical imperfections that all discs have, because missing bits are seamlessly reinserted into the audio data. Only if the errors go beyond the CIRC code's correction capacity do portions of the audio data go missing. And here, the CD player can use interpolation to fill in the gaps, or just let the gaps go.


The Sony 300 CD changer is a highly reviewed both in sound quality and in overall durability over time. They have been making changers for years, and most all have received pretty high marks for durablity and sound quality. Technics, Denon, Yamaha all have changers that have received high marks for their changers as well.

I remember that RGA (one of the more obsessive sound quality sticklers on this site over the years) owns one of those Sony 300 CD changers, so I don't know where PS goes presuming that "anyone who takes listening seriously when it comes to CD's wouldn't be caught dead" with a CD changer.

Plus, the majority of Sony's ES series SACD players, which are very well reviewed not only for SACD playback but for how they sound with CDs as well (which I concur with since I have a SCD-C2000ES plugged into my system), have been the carousel variety. The higher end carousel models have been mentioned by reviewers as very stable transport platforms.

[salad 419]

Also, if you're noticing huge differences between your coaxial digital and analog playback, you should first make sure that your listenings are truly equal -- i.e., same output levels (louder usually equates to better when doing uncontrolled A/B comparisons), same DSP settings, same bass management settings, etc. Generally, under more controlled conditions, any differences will be more subtle than huge/obvious

Not only A/B comparisons, but A (digital) for quite some time, then B (analog). Usually the only DSP mode I use is the 7 channel stereo so I can hear the music in every room. Every other setting was the same, or at the very least the sub level was changed since the analog had more bottom end (high end as well).

Yesterday, I hooked up my Play Station 2 to the reciever. I have it hooked up both with the Optical out and Analog out as well. The sound is MUCH cleaner and clearer (neutral?) than the $39 DVD player (although it skips on every little smudge and scratch). FINALLY, the highs sound better. I wasn't satisfied with my Quad's highs,previously although everyone else claimed that the highs were fine. Not only that, but the Digital out is better than the analog in this case.Maybe the PS2 has a good Digital out and crappy DAC??? I was amazed at how much coloration the DVD player added. The PS2 made "space" or no sound in quiet areas of music if that makes sense. At first, I was somewhat annoyed by the PS2 because I was hearing some kind of noise. It turns out that it was the snare on the bottom of the drum rattling. HOLY CRAP, I can't wait to see what a REAL CD player will sound like.

Anyway, I'm still browsing for a player. I've considered the HK DVD 47 since it can do SACD and DVDA and there seem to be some bargains on the net for them. All in all, it will depend on how cheap I can find something. Doesn't life suck when you have no budget????

[PeruvianSkies]

PS,
This is a blanket statement, and not reflective of my experience with carousel CD players. Either the laser reads the discs information, or it does not. There is no such thing as half reading the zero and ones. A misalignment no matter how small will result in the player not being able to read a disc, or it skip out alltogether. It will not result in you not hearing all everything you could as you state.

The Sony 300 CD changer is a highly reviewed both in sound quality and in overall durability over time. They have been making changers for years, and most all have received pretty high marks for durablity and sound quality. Technics, Denon, Yamaha all have changers that have received high marks for their changers as well.

What experience do you have with high-end players? And I am not talking about Denon, Technics, or Yamaha, but companies like EMM Labs, Goldmund, Gryphon, etc etc.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

What experience do you have with high-end players? And I am not talking about Denon, Technics, or Yamaha, but companies like EMM Labs, Goldmund, Gryphon, etc etc.

Plenty. I own a Theta voyager and David II that has sat in my studio before it was being rebuilt. I have owned Wadia and krell CD players in the past.

I am willing to be you have had NO experience with any of the high end companies you listed.

Any more questions?

[Woochifer]

Not only A/B comparisons, but A (digital) for quite some time, then B (analog). Usually the only DSP mode I use is the 7 channel stereo so I can hear the music in every room. Every other setting was the same, or at the very least the sub level was changed since the analog had more bottom end (high end as well).

Yesterday, I hooked up my Play Station 2 to the reciever. I have it hooked up both with the Optical out and Analog out as well. The sound is MUCH cleaner and clearer (neutral?) than the $39 DVD player (although it skips on every little smudge and scratch). FINALLY, the highs sound better. I wasn't satisfied with my Quad's highs,previously although everyone else claimed that the highs were fine. Not only that, but the Digital out is better than the analog in this case.Maybe the PS2 has a good Digital out and crappy DAC??? I was amazed at how much coloration the DVD player added. The PS2 made "space" or no sound in quiet areas of music if that makes sense. At first, I was somewhat annoyed by the PS2 because I was hearing some kind of noise. It turns out that it was the snare on the bottom of the drum rattling. HOLY CRAP, I can't wait to see what a REAL CD player will sound like.

Anyway, I'm still browsing for a player. I've considered the HK DVD 47 since it can do SACD and DVDA and there seem to be some bargains on the net for them. All in all, it will depend on how cheap I can find something. Doesn't life suck when you have no budget????

First off, you have a lot of variables that you need to control for before you go assigning causal effects to what you're listening. Anytime you compare an analog output with a digital output, you absolutely have to control for the levels first and foremost.

Comparing the DVD player with the PS2, was that a digital-digital comparison? In that case, both players are using the receiver's DACs. You're only using the players as transports in that case.

Only in an analog-analog comparison are you listening thru the players' internal DACs. And even then, your receivers' analog inputs is likely doing a redundant analog-to-digital-to-analog conversion, particularly if you are using the receiver's bass management or DSP settings, since all of that processing is done in the digital domain. Only if you have some kind of "direct" mode and switch off the bass management and DSP modes is there any chance of the analog signal getting passed directly to the receiver's preamp section with no redundant digital conversion.

If you have no budget right now, then you should save up more for a dedicated CD player if that's your priority. Getting a HD-DVD player when you're really looking for improved CD audio at this point is a waste of $98.

[s dog]

With a few exceptions DVD players have always been piss poor for CD playback.
They just arent made for it.
You can get a generic five disc changer for that much or less, you'd be surprized at how
good they sound (I was)
I was using a laserdisc for CD also, a friend got a cheap "teac" five disc, I couldnt beleive
how good it sounded. I got a yamaha five disc and it sounded great also.
If you get the HD get it for video, I doubt if CD playback is a major part of the design,
like most new "receivers" that have their entire tuner on a single chip:1:
I have a denon 1600 dvd player that cost $550.00, It is a really nice player with a audio only button on the front panel for playing cd's, I also have a denon dcm 280 - 5 disc cd player that cost around $275.00. When it comes to playing cd's the 280 -5 disc cd player flat out sounds better than the more $ dvd player, The dvd player does not sound as warm and the bass is weak.

[PeruvianSkies]

Plenty. I own a Theta voyager and David II that has sat in my studio before it was being rebuilt. I have owned Wadia and krell CD players in the past.

I am willing to be you have had NO experience with any of the high end companies you listed.

Any more questions?

Then I'm willing to bet you don't have experience with the ones you have listed either. I'd like to see some pictures of your setup if you do though. I have played around with a variety of high-end gear and have been to shows and demoed lots of equipment over the past few years, I am quite aware of the high-end market and desire to own the best equipment out there as time allows.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Then I'm willing to bet you don't have experience with the ones you have listed either. I'd like to see some pictures of your setup if you do though. I have played around with a variety of high-end gear and have been to shows and demoed lots of equipment over the past few years, I am quite aware of the high-end market and desire to own the best equipment out there as time allows.

You have played around with stuff, I have owned it. So what you need to do is go back to overanalyzing movies in the most subjective way you know how, and stop trying to spread untruths about the mechanics of things you do not know about. If you haven't lived with good stuff, then you do not know about it. Playing around with it gives you only a cursory experience with the equipment.

[L.J.]

You have played around with stuff, I have owned it. So what you need to do is go back to overanalyzing movies in the most subjective way you know how, and stop trying to spread untruths about the mechanics of things you do not know about. If you haven't lived with good stuff, then you do not know about it. Playing around with it gives you only a cursory experience with the equipment.

Sir T, I have to wonder why you even bother with him? It is such a waste of time.

[salad 419]

If you have no budget right now, then you should save up more for a dedicated CD player if that's your priority. Getting a HD-DVD player when you're really looking for improved CD audio at this point is a waste of $98.

I believe that this is the advice I was looking for.

Now I just have to research to find the type of player that will have the right synergy with my current gear as well as my upgrades :)

Thanks guys

Also, I don't mind if/when you bust my balls. I'm here to learn.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, I have to wonder why you even bother with him? It is such a waste of time.

LJ, you are right. You advice is well taken. Thanks bud.

[PeruvianSkies]

Plenty. I own a Theta voyager and David II that has sat in my studio before it was being rebuilt. I have owned Wadia and krell CD players in the past.

I am willing to be you have had NO experience with any of the high end companies you listed.

Any more questions?

And how many of these are Carousel units? These are all good units and such, but they are still affordable in most peoples cases, unlike perhaps the Goldmund reference or the MLB stuff, which costs upwards of $70,000. So owning this is not exactly on everyones list, but unless you have some in your home, I think you'd better shut up about 'owning stuff'.

[PeruvianSkies]

Sir T, I have to wonder why you even bother with him? It is such a waste of time.

I'm glad you follow him around like a little well-trained lap dog too.

[L.J.]

I'm glad you follow him around like a little well-trained lap dog too.

Sssshhhhh...........:Yawn:

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

And how many of these are Carousel units? These are all good units and such, but they are still affordable in most peoples cases, unlike perhaps the Goldmund reference or the MLB stuff, which costs upwards of $70,000. So owning this is not exactly on everyones list, but unless you have some in your home, I think you'd better shut up about 'owning stuff'.

:rolleyes5::ciappa:

[PeruvianSkies]

Sssshhhhh...........:Yawn:

What's the matter? Truth hurt?

[pixelthis]

PS,
This is a blanket statement, and not reflective of my experience with carousel CD players. Either the laser reads the discs information, or it does not. There is no such thing as half reading the zero and ones. A misalignment no matter how small will result in the player not being able to read a disc, or it skip out alltogether. It will not result in you not hearing all everything you could as you state.

The Sony 300 CD changer is a highly reviewed both in sound quality and in overall durability over time. They have been making changers for years, and most all have received pretty high marks for durablity and sound quality. Technics, Denon, Yamaha all have changers that have received high marks for their changers as well.

THANKS
I have a sony 300 disc player and while its mainly for storage it does sound quite good.
I have also had a yamaha five disc that was really great.
I used a Sony laserdisc and like Peruvian dismissed these players, was quite surprized
to hear how they sounded, especially when you bypass the dac and use your receivers DAC.
The snobbery displayed by peruvian is rampant in the audio world, but the truth is that
on "higher end" players you're just getting cosmetics and maybe a better DAC.
Most of these "high end" units use the Sony or denon drive units.
HIGH END MANUFACTURERS CLAIM THESE UNITS ARE "IMPROVED"
but never quite explain how.
And only a german sherpard could tell the difference. I have had players costing hundreds
of dollars, but now that most of my collection is on hard drive I see little reason for the expense, considering the small amount of improvement (if any) and the few times I listen to CD these days, when I listen to a single disc its usually a SACD or DVDAUDIO.
The CD as a format is dead, basically, the hard drive is the future:1:

[emaidel]

This is a most interesting thread, with opinions just about all over the place, and, apparently, tempers to match. In my experience, no DVD player has ever done a decent job playing CD's, and that includes my newest Toshiba TOTL HD-DVD unit. While that unit may do a wonderful job with HD DVD's, and an equally wonderful job of upscaling "ordinary" DVD's to "near" HD quality, it flat out stinks when it comes to CD playback.

Insofar as carousel units, I seriously doubt the ultra high-end units will ever be designed that way, but my Adcom GCD-600 changer does a pretty good job of playback, especially so when connected to the outboard Adcom GDA-600 D/A converter. That combination runs rings around an older Denon 1500 MkII, (not a carousel) but I'm sure, pales when compared to separate transport/D/A converter combos running into the many thousands of dollars.

Adcom always did a fine job of providing near high-end performance at a fraction of the cost of such equipment, and these two units are perfect examples of that philosophy. So, a blanket statement that carousel units are somehow by nature inferior isn't quite true.

This is much the same argument used in the 70's against so-called record "changers." The very idea that they were capable of stacking records (something audiophiles cringed about), and had gears, springs and other such parts to allow for automatic playback relegated them to the back of the line, compared to strictly manual tables. Not surprisingly, many of these "automatic turntables," as they were called, made excellent automatic single-play units, which definitely held their own against manual tables from other manufacturers. Dual is certainly a case in point: the TOTL Dual "changer" vastly outperformed anything from Technics in the days past, but the fact that Duals were automatic made many steer clear from tham.

My two cents.

[L.J.]

Emaidel, you have a A2 right? I think you did a review a while back. How's it working out for you? Any freezing during playback? Have you did a firmware update yet? Any sync problems?

[emaidel]

It's not an A-2, but an A-20K, or something like that. It's the one that currently sells at Best Buy for $299.95. I had it freeze up once, and all I did was disconnect the power to it, and since then it's been fine. I've done no updates to it and have no idea what that entails, or if it's something I can do by myself. Still, I'm very satisfied with it, except for the slloooowwwww startup time.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

This is a most interesting thread, with opinions just about all over the place, and, apparently, tempers to match. In my experience, no DVD player has ever done a decent job playing CD's, and that includes my newest Toshiba TOTL HD-DVD unit. While that unit may do a wonderful job with HD DVD's, and an equally wonderful job of upscaling "ordinary" DVD's to "near" HD quality, it flat out stinks when it comes to CD playback.
.

Wow, I am surprised to hear this about the A2's CD playback. I owned(and still own) a Toshiba A1, and its CD playback is probably one of its best virtues. The same goes for the XA-2, great CD playback. Well maybe I am not so surprised, to keep the price down Toshiba had to cut so many good things that were on the A1(like 5.1 analog outs, and multiple sharc DSP's), that is actually is not the value that the A1 seemed to be.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

It's not an A-2, but an A-20K, or something like that. It's the one that currently sells at Best Buy for $299.95. I had it freeze up once, and all I did was disconnect the power to it, and since then it's been fine. I've done no updates to it and have no idea what that entails, or if it's something I can do by myself. Still, I'm very satisfied with it, except for the slloooowwwww startup time.

Yo E,
You can call Toshiba customer service(and good luck on that) and request the latest update disc from them for your player. Once you get the disc, uploading the firmare is a piece of cake. The problem is getting the disc without mutliple calls to their customer service, and getting a competent person to respond to you.

[GMichael]

Yo E,
You can call Toshiba customer service(and good luck on that) and request the latest update disc from them for your player. Once you get the disc, uploading the firmare is a piece of cake. The problem is getting the disc without mutliple calls to their customer service, and getting a competent person to respond to you.

This looks like a good link to get Toshiba down loads. Didn't notice if his model is on there.

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/customersupport/updates_notices.asp

Beats calling them.

[L.J.]

I read somewhere that people where having sync issues once they installed the firmware update for the A2. I haven't hit any issues yet, but I'm thinking I won't do a update unless it was absolutely necessary.

[PeruvianSkies]

This is a most interesting thread, with opinions just about all over the place, and, apparently, tempers to match. In my experience, no DVD player has ever done a decent job playing CD's, and that includes my newest Toshiba TOTL HD-DVD unit. While that unit may do a wonderful job with HD DVD's, and an equally wonderful job of upscaling "ordinary" DVD's to "near" HD quality, it flat out stinks when it comes to CD playback.

Insofar as carousel units, I seriously doubt the ultra high-end units will ever be designed that way, but my Adcom GCD-600 changer does a pretty good job of playback, especially so when connected to the outboard Adcom GDA-600 D/A converter. That combination runs rings around an older Denon 1500 MkII, (not a carousel) but I'm sure, pales when compared to separate transport/D/A converter combos running into the many thousands of dollars.

Adcom always did a fine job of providing near high-end performance at a fraction of the cost of such equipment, and these two units are perfect examples of that philosophy. So, a blanket statement that carousel units are somehow by nature inferior isn't quite true.

This is much the same argument used in the 70's against so-called record "changers." The very idea that they were capable of stacking records (something audiophiles cringed about), and had gears, springs and other such parts to allow for automatic playback relegated them to the back of the line, compared to strictly manual tables. Not surprisingly, many of these "automatic turntables," as they were called, made excellent automatic single-play units, which definitely held their own against manual tables from other manufacturers. Dual is certainly a case in point: the TOTL Dual "changer" vastly outperformed anything from Technics in the days past, but the fact that Duals were automatic made many steer clear from tham.

My two cents.

I am certainly not saying that a carousel unit is junk, some are better than others, but for serious high-end playback, you are pretty much going to want to go with a single-tray unit. This obviously is going to highly depend on your entire system anyway and most people will probably be satisfied with a carousel for convenience and options, but it's also nice to have both in your setup that way you can have one for long-extended playing at a party or when you are cleaning around the house, but a single-tray for critical listening.

[pixelthis]

I am certainly not saying that a carousel unit is junk, some are better than others, but for serious high-end playback, you are pretty much going to want to go with a single-tray unit. This obviously is going to highly depend on your entire system anyway and most people will probably be satisfied with a carousel for convenience and options, but it's also nice to have both in your setup that way you can have one for long-extended playing at a party or when you are cleaning around the house, but a single-tray for critical listening.

Ah yes, the infamous "critical" listening where so called "audiophiles" claim minute differences in players that are worth spending big bucks on.
Not that it matters, its the twilight of the CD anyway.
And I liked dual, and sometimes for monetary had to use a "changer" for records,
but the primary objection to these were that they were rough on records, and most used ceramic cartriges that were also rough on records.
I have records bought new that have never seen a changer or a ceramic cartrige,
and are not as good as new but in good shape, and the few times I was stuck with one
I always used it as a single play unit.
Back to CD players, sure a single tray unit will have more stability, and maybe a better DAC, but use your pre-pro dac and the dac issue in non-existent, and while the snob
factor keeps "audiophiles" away from changers, of all types, they have never been shown
to suffer from the type of tray they use.
Truth is, like sir t said, as long as the ones and zeros are read, thats all that matters,
but DVD players of all types suffer from bad CD playback. probably because so little of their resources are devoted to such:1:

[emaidel]

[
You can call Toshiba customer service(and good luck on that) and request the latest update disc from them for your player. Once you get the disc, uploading the firmare is a piece of cake. The problem is getting the disc without mutliple calls to their customer service, and getting a competent person to respond to you

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll try contacting them online first - that ususally works since no live people are involved. "Customer Service," regrettably, has become a thing of the past for numerous companies. Try contacting customer service for DirecTV and see what a delightful experience that is!

[GMichael]

[
You can call Toshiba customer service(and good luck on that) and request the latest update disc from them for your player. Once you get the disc, uploading the firmare is a piece of cake. The problem is getting the disc without mutliple calls to their customer service, and getting a competent person to respond to you

Thanks for the advice. I think I'll try contacting them online first - that ususally works since no live people are involved. "Customer Service," regrettably, has become a thing of the past for numerous companies. Try contacting customer service for DirecTV and see what a delightful experience that is!

I deal with Toshiba every day. Trust me, go on-line.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am certainly not saying that a carousel unit is junk, some are better than others, but for serious high-end playback, you are pretty much going to want to go with a single-tray unit. This obviously is going to highly depend on your entire system anyway and most people will probably be satisfied with a carousel for convenience and options, but it's also nice to have both in your setup that way you can have one for long-extended playing at a party or when you are cleaning around the house, but a single-tray for critical listening.

The quality of the analog stages, the cleanliness of the digital signal path, and the quality of the DAC has far more effect on what you hear than than whether a tray is a single, or mutli disc tray. If I put high quality DAC, a clean high quality analog stage, and a very clean digital signal path on a multidisc player, that pretty much squashes your claims, and describes the Sony 300 disc player.

[PeruvianSkies]

The quality of the analog stages, the cleanliness of the digital signal path, and the quality of the DAC has far more effect on what you hear than than whether a tray is a single, or mutli disc tray. If I put high quality DAC, a clean high quality analog stage, and a very clean digital signal path on a multidisc player, that pretty much squashes your claims, and describes the Sony 300 disc player.

These 'claims' are not just mine, but what high-end units claim as well, so take it up with them if you disagree. I only confirm that I have had better success with single-tray players over carousel and it's really hard to compare since you can't buy a high-end carousel unit to accurately compare to a single-tray, but again there is a reason why high-end manufacturer's don't deal with carousels.

Tell me again, how many of those CD players that you mentioned (once owning) were carousels?

Once owning and owning are two different things, why don't you own them anymore?

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

These 'claims' are not just mine, but what high-end units claim as well, so take it up with them if you disagree. I only confirm that I have had better success with single-tray players over carousel and it's really hard to compare since you can't buy a high-end carousel unit to accurately compare to a single-tray, but again there is a reason why high-end manufacturer's don't deal with carousels.

Tell me again, how many of those CD players that you mentioned (once owning) were carousels?

Once owning and owning are two different things, why don't you own them anymore?

Just what "high end units" are making this claim? I have never heard of a high end "unit" making any claim. Your success is your success, you failure is your failure. Your success are not mine, your failures are not mine. So once again, who are these "units" that make this claim?

I never said any of the high end CD players I mention where carousel units. You asked me a question, I answered it. That question was not related to carousel units, it was related to what high end CD players I have owned. Surprised you do not even remember the contexted of your own question. Well maybe not.

[PeruvianSkies]

Just what "high end units" are making this claim? I have never heard of a high end "unit" making any claim. Your success is your success, you failure is your failure. Your success are not mine, your failures are not mine. So once again, who are these "units" that make this claim?

I never said any of the high end CD players I mention where carousel units. You asked me a question, I answered it. That question was not related to carousel units, it was related to what high end CD players I have owned. Surprised you do not even remember the contexted of your own question. Well maybe not.

I guess i'll have to explain this to you like a 4 year old....

Which player is more likely to have better alignment for playback? A Carousel unit or a single-tray player? Answer: The single-tray unit.

Alignment is essential for proper playback...right? The way the laser reads the data is obviously effective if the disc is not properly spinning or balanced, not to mention calibrated. High-end players offer technology to ensure that the disc is being read completely, accurately, and ensure proper spinning, just read up on this a bit, check out Gryphon, Goldmund, etc etc.

So what's the difference? System to system these nuances are going to change, just like anything else, and this is just one of many reasons why carousels are not nearly as popular, the others range from discs getting stuck in the trays, tedious to work with/load etc, as well as being bulkier (depending on the storage size).

[emaidel]

I deal with Toshiba every day. Trust me, go on-line.


I followed your advice and sent them an email over an hour ago. So far, nothing, but then it's "only" been an hour....

[GMichael]

I followed your advice and sent them an email over an hour ago. So far, nothing, but then it's "only" been an hour....

An email? That may not work any better than the call. Depends on their mood that day.

You'll want to go on their website and find what you need for yourself. You'll find an answer much faster that way.

[L.J.]

Yeah, I think you can just download the update and burn it to a disc.

http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/tacpassets-images/notices/hddvd2firmware.asp


Link to instructions:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=876566

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I guess i'll have to explain this to you like a 4 year old....

Do not forget to stand in front of the mirror on this one, because this would only apply to you.


Which player is more likely to have better alignment for playback? A Carousel unit or a single-tray player? Answer: The single-tray unit.

Proof and relevance please. Because I am going to tell ya, I have owned two carousel units, and the alignment must have been perfect because they both played discs exceptionally well. If a disc is not in perfect alignment for the laser to read the disc, it will skip frequently, or it won't play at all. Either it reads the disc, or it cannot. There is no such thing as reading it better than the next. This is digital 0 and 1's, not vinyl who's needle and cartridge are subject to playback distortion if not correctly aligned.


Alignment is essential for proper playback...right? The way the laser reads the data is obviously effective if the disc is not properly spinning or balanced, not to mention calibrated. High-end players offer technology to ensure that the disc is being read completely, accurately, and ensure proper spinning, just read up on this a bit, check out Gryphon, Goldmund, etc etc.

I am aware of both manufacturers. However, there is a point of diminishing returns on a DVD transport that cost $75k. I completely understand their use of special isolation platforms and clamping to control disc balance. However, the question is, how do both of these make a disc play better? How do you isolate that from the fact that they use exceptionally high quality DACs, high quality digital components in the digital signal path, and the analog section is well isolated from the digital components? I would argue that the latter does more than the former in getting excellent sound.

If I take two players with the same internal electronics and signal paths, high quality DAC, with one having the specialized clamps and the other not, could you really hear the difference? I would think most would not hear the effects of a specialized clamping system.

The prices that both of these manufacturers charge for their products is not in line with the quality of the parts, and the design of the products. They represent "statement" pieces of which all of the specialized "design" enhancements have a rather dubious effect on sound quality. And lastly, very few people would purchase a statement piece for $75k. So even mentioning it on this board is completely out the realm of helpfulness for most.






So what's the difference? System to system these nuances are going to change, just like anything else, and this is just one of many reasons why carousels are not nearly as popular, the others range from discs getting stuck in the trays, tedious to work with/load etc, as well as being bulkier (depending on the storage size).

Perv, sorry but this makes no sense at all. Either the laser can read the disc, or it cannot. There is no nuance to that. Where the nuance comes in is in the processing, decimation stage, and D/A conversion, not whether a CD player has a fancy clamping and stabilizing system.

[pixelthis]

I guess i'll have to explain this to you like a 4 year old....

Which player is more likely to have better alignment for playback? A Carousel unit or a single-tray player? Answer: The single-tray unit.

Alignment is essential for proper playback...right? The way the laser reads the data is obviously effective if the disc is not properly spinning or balanced, not to mention calibrated. High-end players offer technology to ensure that the disc is being read completely, accurately, and ensure proper spinning, just read up on this a bit, check out Gryphon, Goldmund, etc etc.

So what's the difference? System to system these nuances are going to change, just like anything else, and this is just one of many reasons why carousels are not nearly as popular, the others range from discs getting stuck in the trays, tedious to work with/load etc, as well as being bulkier (depending on the storage size).

Alingment is NOT essential as long as the ones and zeros are read.
This is what drove "audiophiles" back to turntables, an inexpensive CD player sounded quite good, about as good as an expensive one, main difference is the dacs.
Sir T, I have never heard about the dacs in a sony 300 CD changer, I will try them (I have been using the dac in my Integra receiver, just asumed it was better)
And PERUVIAN, I had a Yamaha, five disc changer, a yamaha single disc, sold the five disc to a friend, don't miss it much, its just more conveinent to listen off of your computer
and with lossless codecs like FLAC and APE the sound quality is quite good.
Which BRINGS UP A QUESTION FOR SIR T, when is the industry going to produce a portable player that supports lossless codecs? Seems like in a crowded market this would be a good selling point, or are people interested in good sound too small a market?