Another noob needs help with an HT setup

[B_R_Y]

Hi all!
First let me apologize for being a giant noob when it comes to this stuff, I'll try not to ask too many silly questions.

I've been doing some poking around here looking at reviews and such, but I cant seem to come up with any definitive ideas on my own, so I'm here to beg the audio gurus to lend me some of their knowledge.:wink5:
Were building a bedroom size entertainment room in our basement (approx. 9.5ft by 10ft, probably a little larger), its small, but if I do things right it should work out well. We currently have a 40" Sony LCD TV (unfortunately its only 1080i) Denon 3801 Reciever, Crappy Panasonic speakers (our old boston acoustic speakers couldn't come with us when we moved :( ) and my PS3 and Wii. The PS3 is what plays all of the media, both disk and files shared over the network. My budget is currently close to 1300, but will increase as time goes on. I could get away with around 2k if needed, but I would like to slowly accumulate the parts, which should allow me to wait and find good used or new deals when they come, rather then just spontaneously buying everything. The system will be used for mostly Movies and Games and a little music, but not too much.

On to business! My main problem is that I dont really know all that much about speakers, preamps, power amps, recievers, etc.
Could someone explain the functions of preamps, power amps, and receivers and their functions, I think I have a fairly good idea of what they do, but I would like to be sure.

I have many more unintelligent questions to come...
Thanks in advance for all your help!:)

[Keith from Canada]

Hi all!
First let me apologize for being a giant noob when it comes to this stuff, I'll try not to ask too many silly questions.

I've been doing some poking around here looking at reviews and such, but I cant seem to come up with any definitive ideas on my own, so I'm here to beg the audio gurus to lend me some of their knowledge.:wink5:
Were building a bedroom size entertainment room in our basement (approx. 9.5ft by 10ft, probably a little larger), its small, but if I do things right it should work out well. We currently have a 40" Sony LCD TV (unfortunately its only 1080i) Denon 3801 Reciever, Crappy Panasonic speakers (our old boston acoustic speakers couldn't come with us when we moved :( ) and my PS3 and Wii. The PS3 is what plays all of the media, both disk and files shared over the network. My budget is currently close to 1300, but will increase as time goes on. I could get away with around 2k if needed, but I would like to slowly accumulate the parts, which should allow me to wait and find good used or new deals when they come, rather then just spontaneously buying everything. The system will be used for mostly Movies and Games and a little music, but not too much.

On to business! My main problem is that I dont really know all that much about speakers, preamps, power amps, recievers, etc.
Could someone explain the functions of preamps, power amps, and receivers and their functions, I think I have a fairly good idea of what they do, but I would like to be sure.

I have many more unintelligent questions to come...
Thanks in advance for all your help!:)

First off, an amplifier/"power amplifier" provides the power for a separates system and the preamp provides all of the processing. The amp is simply that, an amplifier or amplifiers that provide power. The benefit of using a preamp and an amplifier is that everything is separate and there is less chance of tainting the source material, be it music or movies.

A receiver does everything all in one box. It has a section dedicated to amplification (power amp), a section dedicated to processing (preamp) and in most cases, a section for the tuner (radio) components. The benefit of this is that you have everything you need in one box (like your AVR 3801). The drawback is that you're packing a lot of electronics into one box. Generally speaking, you will find that a separate system will provide better sound than a receiver but at a much higher cost. The question is, how much really clean power will you need for a system that is running HT and games in a small room? I think you'll do fine with the receiver that you have.

Speakers - this is an entirely different kettle of fish and one that you need to figure out. One man's dream speakers are another man's nightmare. You need to audition speakers to find out which ones sound good to you.

Good luck!

[Mr Peabody]

It does seem that you have all you need to build a system except speakers. The 3801 would be fine, the PS3 plays Blu-ray, you have a very nice HDTV, just get some speakers and you have it made. The 3801 may not have the latest HDMI crap, I mean features but if you run video directly to the TV, no problem.

In a small room you should probably go with bookshelf speakers on stands which will require a sub to do things right. Or, amplified speakers where you can eliminate the sub and still have good bass.

True speakers are a personal preference and some listening fun is suggested, however, B&W or Paradigm should be on the top of the list. Both make good speakers and starting price is budget on up. I'm not sure who makes good amplified speakers these days. Definitive Technology used to offer several.

[L.J.]

I agree with sticking with the 3801 and concentrating your efforts on speakers. You can still enjoy BR at a higher bitrate than DVD using your 3801, but not at it's full potential. If you want to take full advantage of the HD audio, that comes along with BR, and SACD playback, you will need an AVR that is HDMI compatible since the PS3 does not have analog outs. No rush though right, have fun auditioning speakers.

[Mr Peabody]

Does the PS3 allow for optical or coax audio out for BR or SD playback? If so, you will still benefit from the uncompressed sound off BR discs just not to the extent of the analog outs or theoretically the HDMI. Several sources of authority, including the Dolby website, say if HDMI from Blu-ray works at all with receivers it will be limited. It seems the players have to allow the non-decoded bitstream past their internal circuitry and that isn't likely to happen. The disc has to be encoded to allow it to happen. The core DTS/DD encoding is on Blu-ray discs and uncompressed so it will sound better than standard DVD via current A/V gear.

[codecougar]

Well, you don't really specify what you are looking to accomplish here.

You have a pretty decent set up going and a fairly small room. If you "dont really know all that much about speakers, preamps, power amps, recievers, etc.", I am assuming that you are not looking for the "best of the best", but rather a decent audio set up for movies and games.

You have a nice receiver and I do not think you need to go out and buy a separate power amp. It appears that all you really need is speakers.

First question is whether you want to run 5.1 or 7.1. I believe your receiver can do both. I personally run 5.1 (2 fronts, center, 2 surrounds, and a subwoofer). It is fine for my needs. Trust me, you do not need 7 speakers and a SW in your sized room.

My recommendation would be to keep your current receiver and start looking for new speakers. You can get the whole shebang (fronts, rears, center, and SW) within your current budget as long as you stay at the shallow end of the pool. I really like Infinitys. They are low end, but I think they sound fantastic for the price. You also have a small room so I wouldn't go crazy here especially if you aren't really using your system for music.

Separate preamps and power amps are usually reserved for a person who is looking for the "best of the best" and seriously concerned about the audio quality. I don't think you need to start blowing cash on this stuff. Your receiver will do nicely.

[L.J.]

Does the PS3 allow for optical or coax audio out for BR or SD playback? If so, you will still benefit from the uncompressed sound off BR discs just not to the extent of the analog outs or theoretically the HDMI. Several sources of authority, including the Dolby website, say if HDMI from Blu-ray works at all with receivers it will be limited. It seems the players have to allow the non-decoded bitstream past their internal circuitry and that isn't likely to happen. The disc has to be encoded to allow it to happen. The core DTS/DD encoding is on Blu-ray discs and uncompressed so it will sound better than standard DVD via current A/V gear.

Yes the PS3 allows playback via optical connections but you would still be limited to a 5.1/6.1 compressed track @ a bitrate normally higher than DVD. 640kbps for DD & 1.5mbps for DTS. The optical connection can only carry 2 channels of uncompressed PCM so your only other options would be HDMI or analog outs. In both cases, the player would do the decoding as you stated. HDMI is able to carry the 5.1/7.1 channels of uncompressed PCM, decoded DTSMA or decoded DolbyTrueHD. Analog out can do the same IF the player has them. I suggest HDMI because some units like the lower end Toshiba's or PS3 only offers HD audio capabilities via HDMI.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ:_Blu-ray_and_HD_DVD_Audio_Explained/1064

Mr. Peabody, where are you finding info that states the "core" DTS track & DD tracks are uncompressed? I don't think that is accurate. Perhaps I'm just reading your wording incorrectly.

[B_R_Y]

Thanks all for your input! I really appreciate it!:)

Thanks for the reminder Codecougar, I guess I should have thought about what I wanted to accomplish before posting.
I'm looking to piece together a 5.1 surround system for a small sized room for mainly watching movies and playing games while listening to some music. I currently have around $1300 to spend, but as time goes on I can set aside more and more. And I dont mind waiting for good deals to come around and buy one piece at a time.
I'm one of those people who knows what sounds good, but doesn't necessarily have the knowledge to know what is exactly helping those systems sound so good. That being said, I am willing to spend the time to learn about audio products. Any one know of any good resources?

It sounds like I may need a receiver or something with HDMI inputs (unlike my 3801), in order to get full benefit out of my Bluray collection, but that can come later.

I understand that choosing speakers is subjective to the listener, but could I get your thoughts on good brands and speakers that you have heard? I trust all of you much more then I do a sales person from futureshop. I was thinking of watching local used sites to see if any deals come up. Would buying a used set of speakers be a bad idea? I would, of course, audition them before buying and inquire about how they have been treated, etc.

Thanks again for all of you help!

[codecougar]

Thanks all for your input! I really appreciate it!:)

Thanks for the reminder Codecougar, I guess I should have thought about what I wanted to accomplish before posting.
I'm looking to piece together a 5.1 surround system for a small sized room for mainly watching movies and playing games while listening to some music. I currently have around $1300 to spend, but as time goes on I can set aside more and more. And I dont mind waiting for good deals to come around and buy one piece at a time.
I'm one of those people who knows what sounds good, but doesn't necessarily have the knowledge to know what is exactly helping those systems sound so good. That being said, I am willing to spend the time to learn about audio products. Any one know of any good resources?

It sounds like I may need a receiver or something with HDMI inputs (unlike my 3801), in order to get full benefit out of my Bluray collection, but that can come later.

I understand that choosing speakers is subjective to the listener, but could I get your thoughts on good brands and speakers that you have heard? I trust all of you much more then I do a sales person from futureshop. I was thinking of watching local used sites to see if any deals come up. Would buying a used set of speakers be a bad idea? I would, of course, audition them before buying and inquire about how they have been treated, etc.

Thanks again for all of you help!

I would stay away from Bose and Polk. I hate both and think they sound horrible.

I would stay away from tower speakers. They are totally unnecessary for your room size. Bookshelf speakers for the 2 fronts and rear surrounds would be more than adequate. That's what I have in a 16' X 12' room and I can hear my system down the street.

I personally do not like buying used because of a couple of bad experiences in the past.

You don't sound like a hardcore audiophile so I don't think you need to drop a ton of cash here on high end speakers. For example, you can buy 4 Infinity Beta 20 bookshelf speakers for $125 a piece ($500 total):

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?search=infinity+beta&i=108BT20B

Then get a matching center channel for $150.

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?search=infinity+beta&i=108BTC250B

And a powered subwoofer like this for $300:

http://www.crutchfield.com/App/Product/Item/Main.aspx?g=12300&i=108PS212&tp=187

And you will have a very nice system for a total of $950 with money left over for speaker stands and wire.

But look around. axiomaudio.com seems to have some nice stuff and as noted above, Paradigm and B&W seem to get high marks.

[pixelthis]

First off, don't get anything at crutchfield, they charge full retail.
And infinity you can buy at Circuit city, nuff said.
polks used to be great but not anymore, like infinity they sold out to the mass market.
Boston , B&W, some of the stuff from axiom is okay but not hi-fi.
As for floorstanders, they are fine with a proper pair they can let you get away without
having to buy a sub. They don't have to be intrusive, I have a set of B&w 305's,
about three, three and a half feet tall, their footprint is 12" by about 8" or so.
They add needed bass to my system, not that I need much with a set of 602s in front,
b&w is known for their bass.
If the wife is bugging you a set of deftech sattelites with a mini sub are very unintrusive
and sound great (used to have some) but they are more for HT than any audiophile application.
Just don't compromise on speakers, I guess I disagree with code on that.
Speakers last forever and are a major part of your system, get a good pair:1:

[topspeed]

For a room that size, I'd have to agree to staying with standmount speakers instead of floorstanders. To get a floorstander that fits your budget yet plays deep enough to supplant a true subwoofer, you'd likely eat up your budget just buying ONE speaker!

Speakers I'd think worthy of audition would be Epos ELS3's, Paradigm Titan or Mini's, Athena B1's, and Energy C1's. There are countless others, but this should get you started. For subs, it's hard to beat a Dayton Titanic from partsexpress.com for sheer bang-for-the-buck.

Hope this helps.

[codecougar]

First off, don't get anything at crutchfield, they charge full retail.
And infinity you can buy at Circuit city, nuff said.
polks used to be great but not anymore, like infinity they sold out to the mass market.
Boston , B&W, some of the stuff from axiom is okay but not hi-fi.
As for floorstanders, they are fine with a proper pair they can let you get away without
having to buy a sub. They don't have to be intrusive, I have a set of B&w 305's,
about three, three and a half feet tall, their footprint is 12" by about 8" or so.
They add needed bass to my system, not that I need much with a set of 602s in front,
b&w is known for their bass.
If the wife is bugging you a set of deftech sattelites with a mini sub are very unintrusive
and sound great (used to have some) but they are more for HT than any audiophile application.
Just don't compromise on speakers, I guess I disagree with code on that.
Speakers last forever and are a major part of your system, get a good pair:1:

I don't believe they sell Infinity at Circuit City.

As for Crutchfield, I have had good experiences with them. I don't believe you will be able to find Infinity Beta 20's for cheaper than $125.

As for the Infinity Beta 20's, they are not high end, but certainly a good performing speaker for the price. If you Google them, you will also find that they are pretty well reviewed. But sure, there are certainly much better speakers out there if you have the $$.

[Mr Peabody]

LJ, I read that the HD disc will include the core DD/DTS on Dolby's website. I can't remember the exact wording, I need to look at it again, but I think you are right, optical or coax will be less compressed than SD but not uncompressed in the way analog outs will be. Remember HDMI is a digital connection so if the player has to decode the soundtrack, how will it travel through the HDMI? When decoded it becomes analog. Most of my Blu-ray discs sound great with just a digital connection. One exception, the SD DTS on Pearl Harbor actually sounded better than the DD they put on the Blu-ray. Shame on whoever was responsible for that blooper. Some day I will get the energy to hook up the analog. The back of my stuff just isn't easily accessible.

Circuit City is not synonomus with good deal. I saw the Samsung BD-P1200 on Amazon for $457.00 and CC wanted $599.00, I asked them to match or come close. They wouldn't even drop a $1.00. I would have paid $10 or $20.00 more to get in my hand right then.

I bought my TV from Crutchfield and got a FREE stand which NO ONE locally was offering, the price was the same and I got free shipping and no sales tax. That beats anything I could have gotten locally. Crutchfield's customer service is 2nd to NONE. I'd rather pay them a few bucks more, if that be the case, to get support. CC or BB won't do jack unless you buy an extended warranty and then you are lucky if they honor it. I paid a couple bucks from BB for an extended warranty on my little girls walkman. It broke and they used the excuse I didn't have the headphones to keep from honoring the warranty. I told them to keep the new ones, I just needed the walkman replaced, no deal. I haven't bought anything from them since and hope to never have to. I had a mp3 player quit under warranty I bought from Crutchfield, no extra warranty, they sent me a new one. All I had to do is ship them the broken one back and they even paid all shipping both directions. You buy from BB or CC and keep bending over, in the long run Crutchfield is a much better deal regardless what the price tag says. I rather pay a couple bucks extra at point of purchase than end up with all my money down the drain because I can't get any support. You'll spend more then those couple bucks if you have to ship something back to the manufacturer.

[L.J.]

LJ, I read that the HD disc will include the core DD/DTS on Dolby's website. I can't remember the exact wording, I need to look at it again, but I think you are right, optical or coax will be less compressed than SD but not uncompressed in the way analog outs will be. Remember HDMI is a digital connection so if the player has to decode the soundtrack, how will it travel through the HDMI? When decoded it becomes analog. Most of my Blu-ray discs sound great with just a digital connection. One exception, the SD DTS on Pearl Harbor actually sounded better than the DD they put on the Blu-ray. Shame on whoever was responsible for that blooper. Some day I will get the energy to hook up the analog. The back of my stuff just isn't easily accessible.

I think the improvement in SQ would be worth the effort. I went about 6 or 7 months using an optical connection from my PS3. The improvement in sound was noticable over standard DD/DTS(X-men 3 core DTS track @ 1.5mbps sounds excellent), but the new HD audio formats takes it up a few more levels.

[pixelthis]

LJ, I read that the HD disc will include the core DD/DTS on Dolby's website. I can't remember the exact wording, I need to look at it again, but I think you are right, optical or coax will be less compressed than SD but not uncompressed in the way analog outs will be. Remember HDMI is a digital connection so if the player has to decode the soundtrack, how will it travel through the HDMI? When decoded it becomes analog. Most of my Blu-ray discs sound great with just a digital connection. One exception, the SD DTS on Pearl Harbor actually sounded better than the DD they put on the Blu-ray. Shame on whoever was responsible for that blooper. Some day I will get the energy to hook up the analog. The back of my stuff just isn't easily accessible.

Circuit City is not synonomus with good deal. I saw the Samsung BD-P1200 on Amazon for $457.00 and CC wanted $599.00, I asked them to match or come close. They wouldn't even drop a $1.00. I would have paid $10 or $20.00 more to get in my hand right then.

I bought my TV from Crutchfield and got a FREE stand which NO ONE locally was offering, the price was the same and I got free shipping and no sales tax. That beats anything I could have gotten locally. Crutchfield's customer service is 2nd to NONE. I'd rather pay them a few bucks more, if that be the case, to get support. CC or BB won't do jack unless you buy an extended warranty and then you are lucky if they honor it. I paid a couple bucks from BB for an extended warranty on my little girls walkman. It broke and they used the excuse I didn't have the headphones to keep from honoring the warranty. I told them to keep the new ones, I just needed the walkman replaced, no deal. I haven't bought anything from them since and hope to never have to. I had a mp3 player quit under warranty I bought from Crutchfield, no extra warranty, they sent me a new one. All I had to do is ship them the broken one back and they even paid all shipping both directions. You buy from BB or CC and keep bending over, in the long run Crutchfield is a much better deal regardless what the price tag says. I rather pay a couple bucks extra at point of purchase than end up with all my money down the drain because I can't get any support. You'll spend more then those couple bucks if you have to ship something back to the manufacturer.


Circuit CITY charges full retail also.
At Crutchfields you pay retail AND have to get it UPS, worst of both worlds.
Most of the stuff I get is from a local shop, they ask retail and then shave some off when I ask them, have their own warrenty service, and take anything back in 30 days.
And sell stuff like denon, yamaha, aragon, etc.
There are too many people selling on the web with steep discounts, sure the "retail" price is bogus, jacked up so they can slash it, but neither crutch nor short circuit city
do any slashing.
I do like to window show CC, and have actually gotten some good buys there, when there's a sale, but I rarley buy anything on a regular basis, same with the "crutch".
Yeah, I know they need to make money to stay in business, but it doesnt have to be MY
money.
I don't mind paying a little extra for good service, and beleive in supporting your local retailer(where else are you going to get to audition things) but NOBODY
pays retail for anything , with gas heading for four bucks who can afford to?

[pixelthis]

AND if you think that tv "stand" was "free" than I have some real estate I'd like to sell ya.
I bought my tv at sams club, I shop but these guys consistently have the lowest prices.
I got a 47in samsung RPTV and it had a "free" stand, most of the sets there had "free"
stands.
Like paying 6.00 bucks to see a movie, but the popcorn costs ten bucks.
Or a thousand dollar rebate on a car

[Mr Peabody]

The stand was free, the price of the TV was the same at Crutchfield as it was locally. So pay X amount of dollars for TV&stand, or, just TV, which would you do? Depending on what you buy UPS is less than sales tax and most of the time you can get free shipping. I don't normally advocate online purchases over a local shop but customer service trumps. Besides that places like CC & BB aren't what I'd call local shops. If they disappeared tomorrow it wouldn't make me any difference. It's BB & CC who dangled the carrot in front of the ignorant consumer who went for it that drove most of the locals out of business. So now those same consumers have to shop at a warehouse who cares less if your next purchase is there or not.

[jcooz13@lycos.com]

what does it matter were you buy as long as it works and is what you want..deftech sats are great speaks i have used 2 on stands in front 2 on back wall a center and sub they sounded great even when in stereo. not the loudest but nice and clear and crisp. i still use them for rear surrounds.

[Mr Peabody]

If you have to ask "what does it matter", then you didn't pay attention to prior posts.

[pixelthis]

The stand was free, the price of the TV was the same at Crutchfield as it was locally. So pay X amount of dollars for TV&stand, or, just TV, which would you do? Depending on what you buy UPS is less than sales tax and most of the time you can get free shipping. I don't normally advocate online purchases over a local shop but customer service trumps. Besides that places like CC & BB aren't what I'd call local shops. If they disappeared tomorrow it wouldn't make me any difference. It's BB & CC who dangled the carrot in front of the ignorant consumer who went for it that drove most of the locals out of business. So now those same consumers have to shop at a warehouse who cares less if your next purchase is there or not.

You need to read my post, I don't do business with either very much.
The UPS comment was about paying retail for something then having it shipped./
If you pay full retail you might as well get it local, then you don't havta wait, the only reason to get something through the web, etc, is to save money or if you cant fibd it where you live, crutch and CC both have similar product lines, the same mass produced
stuff, so why buy it at crutch? Doesnt make good sense.

[Mr Peabody]

I'll read yours if you read mine. The reason to buy from Crutchfield can be summed up in two words CUSTOMER SERVICE.