CD is dead. Long live Vinyl?

[squeegy200]

The digital delivery of music seems to have absorbed much of the sales of traditional CDs.

However, Vinyl sales are rising and market futures look optimistic. Could Vinyl ultimately be around to see the demise of the CD?

http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/commentary/listeningpost/2007/10/listeningpost_1029

[Mr Peabody]

One of the guys here, not mentioning any names, Wooch, fails to see any increase in vinyl sales. I also noticed Amazon.com is carrying vinyl now. I haven't looked up any titles but I bet they have it cheaper than any of the other internet dealers of new vinyl. Quite an interesting trend.

[Feanor]

The digital delivery of music seems to have absorbed much of the sales of traditional CDs.

However, Vinyl sales are rising and market futures look optimistic. Could Vinyl ultimately be around to see the demise of the CD?

http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/commentary/listeningpost/2007/10/listeningpost_1029

True, downloads will replace many, maybe most, eventually all CD sales. However there is no way that LP sales will depress CD sales to any significant degree.

Vinyl is and will remain a niche product, (not so say the its sales won't increase). The bottom line is the (largely imaginary) sound improvements do not out weight the appalling ergonomics and durability of the medium.

It is also clear that if SACD survives it will be as a niche product. (Possibly it will be replaced by Blu-Ray if and when the latter wins over HD-DVD.) If there is a niche market shoot out, it is likely to be LP versus SACD. It appalls me to think that vinyl might win such a contest.

[JohnMichael]

I am rooting for vinyl.

[Bernd]

Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!:6:

[Feanor]

Me too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!:6:

... By the deeply irrational responses of JM and Bernd :sad:

If it weren't for the better sound, (rice krispie free at very least), better ergonomics, better durability, and -- hell yes -- lower cost, SACD might only beat LP by being multi-channel.

Oh, I forgot: multi-channel LPs are possible and were actually produced for a while -- I guess we'll just have to fall back on SACD's other advantages.

[JohnMichael]

This has been a great day off. All music on vinyl today. Cd is nice as a convenience format but I love the sound quality and hands on approach of vinyl. No rice krispies here.

[BRANDONH]

One of the guys here, not mentioning any names, Wooch, fails to see any increase in vinyl sales. I also noticed Amazon.com is carrying vinyl now. I haven't looked up any titles but I bet they have it cheaper than any of the other internet dealers of new vinyl. Quite an interesting trend.

OH sweet!!
Amazon now has vinyl too.
I just booked marked it
http://amazon.com/b/ref=amb_link_961442_11/104-0299304-1637526?ie=UTF8&node=372989011&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=browse&pf_rd_r=0HZW4N3ZNF1X2YPR7SN5&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=318818701&pf_rd_i=5174
With free shipping on orders over $25 and no TAX + they will offer new and used OMG this is a great day.
And now that Circuit City is selling them man it just keeps getting better and better.

[JohnMichael]

I was just thinking. Did they not create the SACD format because of what was lacking in cd's compared to vinyl such as ambiance. If SACD were aiming for vinyl I will stick with the original.

[Feanor]

This has been a great day off. All music on vinyl today. Cd is nice as a convenience format but I love the sound quality and hands on approach of vinyl. No rice krispies here.

I can't even be bothered fiddling with CDs, never mind LPs. 90% of my listening is to computer files.

[GMichael]

Oh no! Will all my CD's stop working now?:sad:

[JohnMichael]

I can't even be bothered fiddling with CDs, never mind LPs. 90% of my listening is to computer files.



I am way too inept with computers. I think it is great for those of you with the skills. If I loaded everything on a file I would probably lose it all and the only music I would have is the sound made when the computers modem dials up.

[Feanor]

I was just thinking. Did they not create the SACD format because of what was lacking in cd's compared to vinyl such as ambiance. If SACD were aiming for vinyl I will stick with the origianl.

No, SACD was created because the Sony/Phillips CD patents were running out.

But if there is any doubt that CD is better than vinyl, there is none that SACD is. Personally, I have no problem with the Red Book medium though I do own plenty of pretty poorly recorded CDs. Most of the baddies were produced in the 80's; most of the newer ones are good to great -- and not lacking in ambience. Admittedly I am judging by classic music CDs, not those of the "popular" genres.

[jrhymeammo]

AWESOME NEWS!!!

btw, D2D will walk all over SACD. Dynamic range is just "wicked" and makes me wonder if my cantilever is gonna snap off. Of course I'm just a financially challenged 2ch guy.

I'm gonna get on this Amazon thing this weekend.

Cheers,

[jim goulding]

There ain't nothin wrong with two channel. Call me old school but any concert that you have attended the performers were on stage in front of you. Even the concert hall itself can be captured and re-created in two channel accept for applause which in properly recorded surround sound can come from behind your listening position along with more of the feelin that you are there (which means little to me cause I'm always in the cheap seats). And at what cost? I saw Segovia once from a back row, balcony seat. The ambience I heard ain't happenin in home audio so what's the point? Best case, I'm not sure very many labels are recording with this in mind. Perhaps, others can speak to this.

I don't own a squeezebox or listen from a computer. So, disc in some fashion is my preferred way of listening to music. Besides, it ain't bad. Sorry, but vinyl will remain an electic medium even tho it's enjoying another day in the sun helped by purists and manufacturers seizing the moment (some of both originate from Japan where life expectancy is longer). Let me give you a case in point. A treasured record of mine is a Linn release of "All My Tomorrows" by an English bird named Carol Kidd. Linn has re-released this on vinyl- it's a bloody wonderful recording with great repertoire for collectors of such, like me- but on Amazon it's $85.00! I'm thinking maybe contacting Linn direct might produce better options but I don't know. However, on SACD Hybrid, it's $25.00.

The good stuff from Acoustic Sounds, Classic Records, Cisco and such cost $25.00 and more. We're in a pickle, my friend. I may have to learn about listening via a computer. In which case, I know where to come for advice. My daughter might listen to my records once they're hers . . once. Vinyl is for romantics, like me and many others here, and the curious. It will go the way of flatheads. CD might become a chestnut, too. Get em while they're hot!

(a lil later) WTF was I thinking? After a re-read, I don't know why I opened with two channel save for jrhyme's seeming like he was under privileged..

[basite]

Oh no! Will all my CD's stop working now?:sad:


yes!

you will need a turntable instantly! :cornut:

(just kiddin)

I too love Vinyl, especially on vintage speakers (like mine), I'm not saying that vinyl will outsell the cd again, but I do say that the black shiny discs will exist forever, albeit not for a big market.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[kexodusc]

Interesting discussion - I share Feanor's sentiments on this one, while I'm proud to own a small library of LP's (30-40), I just can't get enough of the music I like in vinyl, and IMO SACD is far superior that I'll elect to go that route first.
I have a few LP's that sound better than some brutal CD mixes though - I don't blame the CD format, just the engineers who butchered it.

A few years back I read an article on some website somewhere that I tried to find today but couldn't. Maybe someone here will remember it if I try to describe it.

Essentially, it suggested the "weighted average" age of vinyl owners is significantly higher than CD owners. Ie, a 55 - 60 year old guy might have 200 LP's, where a 20 year old kid might have a dozen. The point being something like 90% of LP's are owned and used by people with limited time left on this earth compared to owners of other music formats.

When the aging sector of the market starts dying off at a rate exponentially faster than the CD market (inevitable in 10-25 years), the LP market won't die a long, draw out death, but rapidly die with a whimper.

I suspect LP's will be around for another generation or two in some capacity, but if they dont' start tapping into the younger buyers on a large scale, and fast, I can't see it enduring for long.

CD might give way to something newer and better, (or worse but more convenient) but I'm sure Vinyl will have nothing to do with its demise.

[GMichael]

yes!

you will need a turntable instantly! :cornut:

(just kiddin)

I too love Vinyl, especially on vintage speakers (like mine), I'm not saying that vinyl will outsell the cd again, but I do say that the black shiny discs will exist forever, albeit not for a big market.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

I have an old Technics TT in the basement. It's a direct drive with "quartz lock." It still works, but I no longer own any LP's. Someone thought that I had too many cases of them and felt that they'd take up less room behind the furnace. The rest, is history.
:incazzato:

[JohnMichael]

Essentially, it suggested the "weighted average" age of vinyl owners is significantly higher than CD owners. Ie, a 55 - 60 year old guy might have 200 LP's, where a 20 year old kid might have a dozen. The point being something like 90% of LP's are owned and used by people with limited time left on this earth compared to owners of other music formats.



Hey I am 51 and I resemble those remarks.

[Bernd]

:incazzato: Yeah, I am 46 and expect to listen for another 46 to the black stuff. There will be no surrender to the sunny delight generation with their 1s and 0s.

[bobsticks]

This has been a great day off. All music on vinyl today. Cd is nice as a convenience format but I love the sound quality and hands on approach of vinyl. No rice krispies here.


Good for you. I just popped in Art Blakey's Keystone 3 SACD and I don't feel like I'm missing anything. The workers that are redoing my bathroom screeched to an abrupt halt.

[bobsticks]

I suspect LP's will be around for another generation or two in some capacity, but if they dont' start tapping into the younger buyers on a large scale, and fast, I can't see it enduring for long.

Which will be difficult given the relatively expensive nature of even a decent vinyl rig. The industry seems to be at odds with itself in terms of longterm success.

[bobsticks]

:incazzato: Yeah, I am 46 and expect to listen for another 46 to the black stuff. There will be no surrender to the sunny delight generation with their 1s and 0s.


Hey, stop that. Where's my Ocean Spray?

[SlumpBuster]

A few years back I read an article on some website somewhere that I tried to find today but couldn't. Maybe someone here will remember it if I try to describe it.

Essentially, it suggested the "weighted average" age of vinyl owners is significantly higher than CD owners. Ie, a 55 - 60 year old guy might have 200 LP's, where a 20 year old kid might have a dozen. The point being something like 90% of LP's are owned and used by people with limited time left on this earth compared to owners of other music formats.

When the aging sector of the market starts dying off at a rate exponentially faster than the CD market (inevitable in 10-25 years), the LP market won't die a long, draw out death, but rapidly die with a whimper.

I suspect LP's will be around for another generation or two in some capacity, but if they dont' start tapping into the younger buyers on a large scale, and fast, I can't see it enduring for long.



Conversely, the opposite could be true as boomers start dying off. As their collections are sold off the LP market could become swiftly gutted. Suddenly, unknown copies of the Butcher cover will start surfacing. Prices will drop and collectors will line up searching to complete their artist catalogues. I'm only 32, I think Jra is younger than me, and Bert's only 17, so there are plenty of young advocates. Vinyl has been dying for 30 years since the entry of the cassette. It will never go away because it does offer full dynamic range and frequency range. Sure it could use better channel separation, but that's okay. Only lo-fi mediums like 8-track and cassette die complete deaths. Although reel to reel was a hi-fi medium that died a comlete death, so I could be wrong.

[Feanor]

Interesting discussion - I share Feanor's sentiments on this one, while I'm proud to own a small library of LP's (30-40), I just can't get enough of the music I like in vinyl, and IMO SACD is far superior that I'll elect to go that route first.
...

Essentially, it suggested the "weighted average" age of vinyl owners is significantly higher than CD owners. Ie, a 55 - 60 year old guy might have 200 LP's, where a 20 year old kid might have a dozen. The point being something like 90% of LP's are owned and used by people with limited time left on this earth compared to owners of other music formats.

...
CD might give way to something newer and better, (or worse but more convenient) but I'm sure Vinyl will have nothing to do with its demise.

Kex, others,

I'm 62. I have about 120 LPs left over from "the day"; (I had over 200 at one point but sold or gave away many). I recently bought an old Technics TT to replace my Rat Shack that broke, and a new Denon DL-110 cartridge. The LPs sounded pretty good, obviously some better than others. However I heard nothing that would even vaguely imply that the sound was better than a well-recorded CD. OK -- granted this vinyl rig of mine is entry level at best, but I haven't listen to any vinyl for several months and I have little temptation to do so.

Will vinyl catch on with younger people? Yes, to some extend, largely driven by the glamorous DJ image, but they will always be a product a small niche market . Nor will they displace CDs. If CDs gradually vanish, it will be because they are replaced by downloads, and that would be just fine with me provided the downloads are equal (or higher) rez and don't cost any more than actual CDs today.

[Mr Peabody]

Do you all know companies like Audio Teknika and Numark have turntables with USB hook up and software to remove clicks & pops? The AT is $95.00 and the Numark is $123.00 at Amazon. I was half tempted but I'm afraid I couldn't get it to work. I'm lucky to be able to rip from my own CD's.

[jrhymeammo]

Do you all know companies like Audio Teknika and Numark have turntables with USB hook up and software to remove clicks & pops? The AT is $95.00 and the Numark is $123.00 at Amazon. I was half tempted but I'm afraid I couldn't get it to work. I'm lucky to be able to rip from my own CD's.

I would like to comment, without a single research.

It just doesnt make any sense to how a program can removes pops and clicks.

I think all it does is to remove certain frequency of music. But if it just detects and smooths out certain pulses or bursts of sound, then I guess it is possible. If anything, I would get one by Pro-Ject that is made half decently. Then purchase the program. But if you do that, why would you want to spend hundreds of dollars just to play music that's gonna sound inferior to what you already have. Mr. Pea, you are defintelky more towards a purist when it comes to audio. I'm not sure if you want to add more filters and processes to your sound. But instead, you should play around with a Low output MC cart. You already have a great phono pre....... Just a thought.

JRA

[jim goulding]

I must be the elder statesman on this topic. I own a ton of albums. In a few cases, the same title on vinyl and silver. My players are of similar quality except that I have one more TT rig than I do CD player (Sony transport/Bel Canto dac). Vinyl wins in every shoot out I've conducted for sounding more organic and involving except one and that would be Carmina Burana on Telarc SACD Hybrid. Now, we're just talking maybe a dozen titles but sometimes, as in Bruce Springsteen's Tunnel Of Love, for example, it's embarrassingly lopsided. I agree that CD has gotten much better since the 80's. Plain ole red book CD's. I've got plenty that sound absolutely fantastic and enjoy them thoroughly.

[Mr Peabody]

I've often wondered how that program works myself.

The only reason I'd do it is to put some of my favorite stuff from vinyl either on my mp3 or burn to CD for auto. That way I could enjoy a song more than once in a blue moon even though it wouldn't be in all it's glory.

[Bernd]

Hey, stop that. Where's my Ocean Spray?

Not in my fridge.

[SlumpBuster]

El-Cheapo noise reduction software exists, but you get what you pay for. Also, your not limited to software, there are hardware solutions too.

Check these out:

http://www.esotericsound.com/sfwr.htm

http://www.esotericsound.com/NoiseReduction.htm I like the one that goes for $7000.00 :D

[Feanor]

I must be the elder statesman on this topic. I own a ton of albums. In a few cases, the same title on vinyl and silver. My players are of similar quality except that I have one more TT rig than I do CD player (Sony transport/Bel Canto dac). Vinyl wins in every shoot out I've conducted for sounding more organic and involving except one and that would be Carmina Burana on Telarc SACD Hybrid. Now, we're just talking maybe a dozen titles but sometimes, as in Bruce Springsteen's Tunnel Of Love, for example, it's embarrassingly lopsided. I agree that CD has gotten much better since the 80's. Plain ole red book CD's. I've got plenty that sound absolutely fantastic and enjoy them thoroughly.

I'm certainly not against "organic" or "involving". Nor do I deny that something of the qualities might pertain to vinyl more than CD. Fairly recentlyI switch my digital amp for a tube preamp and high-bias, low-feedback S/S amps, and they have deliverd a good measure of organic and involving qualties.

Nevertheless it is still my opinion that my digital amp was better -- and more accurate -- with really well-recorded CDs than is my current setup. On the other hand my new setup is better with 80% of recordings. So there's the trade off.

In the end, my personal objections to vinyl are not sound, but rathe:

Ergonomics and durability
Availability of the sort of music I listen to
Multichannel sound -- though this is more hypothetical than real in general, including for me.

[nightflier]

Essentially, it suggested the "weighted average" age of vinyl owners is significantly higher than CD owners. Ie, a 55 - 60 year old guy might have 200 LP's, where a 20 year old kid might have a dozen. The point being something like 90% of LP's are owned and used by people with limited time left on this earth compared to owners of other music formats.

When the aging sector of the market starts dying off at a rate exponentially faster than the CD market (inevitable in 10-25 years), the LP market won't die a long, draw out death, but rapidly die with a whimper.


Well I wasn't much into LPs until my grandfather passed away and willed me a room-full of LPs. Many of these were not even opened (I guess his time also ran out). I now have a ton of 50s-60s jazz and classical I never even knew existed. If you'd asked me about this 10 years ago, I would have wondered why you even asked. I was all about CDs.

But with the LPs, what is most enjoyable to me (and my kids, apparently), is the mechanics and the tangible elements. We'll flick all the switches on in the "listening room," pull the LP out, lay it on the 'table, fasten the clamp, spin up the record player, carefully dust off the disk, set the needle ready to drop, all while waiting for everything to warm up. My kids will take their place on each corner of the couch, I slowly drop the needle down and...magic... Strauss/Zeppelin/Cornette starts to play and fill the whole room with sound. I then take my place between them and we study the cover and the artwork. I think my kids get a kick out of watching me fuss over the details and all the moving parts while all the LEDs are flickering. Will they be vinylphiles some day? You betcha. This experience is priceless to me.

Yes, there are snaps and pops, and you know what? It doesn't matter - in a way it adds to the atmosphere in the room. And as far as not being surround sound, when done right, there's plenty of ambiance, depth and scale to the vinyl-based music to make up for that. Now, I'm not against the disks and the digital formats, I even have an extensive collection of SACDs, but there is nothing that can replace the fun of this experience. It's just not the same to plug in the MP3 player and click the scroll button. I also happen to think that LPs give a different, very analog sound that no digital medium has ever given me, but in the end it's the whole process of listening to LPs and enjoying the artwork that makes it that much more special. And as a bonus, my wife gets an hour to herself while I "entertain" the young'uns.

And this isn't just for the kids. When friends and family are over, there's nothing like spinning up a little Telemann during dinner, or some Coltrane when we're sitting outside by the BBQ, or spinning up Billy Joel's Piano Man when my college buddies are over. Yes, I can also put a set of CDs in the changer, even set it in random mode to add a little spice, but it's just not the same. Maybe the length of a single side of an LP is the perfect length between conversation topics or courses in a meal, I don't know, but at least with LPs and a good sound system, you always have something else to break the ice with newly invited guests. "...Oh, you still play records? ...wow that really takes me back... it sounds a whole lot better than that old Ratshack player I keep in the garage...you wouldn't have Bruce Springsteen on vinyl, would you?" Call me a Luddite if you must, but LPs have turned a whole lot of my wife's "awkward" get-togethers around.

Does digital sound better? I don't know. Is it more enjoyable? Absolutely not. And as far as the LPs costing too much, that's nonsense - just don't buy them new. I have bought maybe 5 LPs new since I've come back to listening to them, but I must have bought hundreds used. If you search hard enough, you'll find good quality LPs for a whole lot less than the comparable CD. And regarding the artwork, how can I forget the fantastic album covers of Santana, Yes, Rush, even Iron Maiden from my, ahem, wilder days. I even have a few picture disks left. Yes, you get a picture on a CD too, but is that really the same?

* Ergonomics and durability: That is it's very charm
* Availability of the sort of music I listen to: I still think there's more on Vinyl than on CD, if anything, there's quite a bit, no matter what you listen to.
* Multichannel sound: For me, only a few classical titles really shine in SACD surround - a good stereo setup can go a long way to meeting that expectation.

...and yes, a better table/cartridge/phono-preamp help a whole lot.

[jim goulding]

Nightflier, you're a romantic at heart. Enjoyed reading this immensely. But, do you really listen to Coltrane when you BBQ?

[Bernd]

Nightflier, that was a superb read. This should be made a sticky here.
Kudos to you for bringing the pleassure of vinyl and the appreciation of music in general to the young ones.
I feel exactely as you about playing vinyl. The little surface noise there is adds to the experience. And lets be honest "life is noisy".
Also, because you never get the set up 100% right there is always more music to discover from those black discs then you thought.

:16:

[basite]

Nightflier, That was very very very true! And with that you actually explained the most important factor in our hobby, the joy of listening to your music, and enjoy your gear.

and I don't have any led's on my tt (only a strobe light, which looks good too at night), but I can honestly tell you that listening to vinyl at night (or at any other moment) is more enjoyable than any cd. With Frank Sinatra's 'Blues in the night' on vinyl for example, just demands you to listen, to just shut up and don't care about anything else than the music. and that's what matters.

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Feanor]

How may people here own and use a film camera? I suspect quite a few own one since digital is barely a decade old, but I'll bet most actually use a digital exclusively.

At about age 12 I interested in photography. My first camera was Kodak Brownie Hawkeye. I really wanted a more advanced camera, and at 14 I got a fixed-lens rangefinder camera for Christmas, (a Japanese Petri). Of course, I really wanted a Leica or Canon model with interchangable lenses.

It's a long story. For a brief time I did actually own a Leica M3 which was absolutely the finest device I've ever owned, though I've own fine cameras (and lots of other stuff) since then.

Recently I looking around eBay and talked myself into buying a couple of rangefinder cameras. One is a Russian Kiev A4, a quite handsome copy of the famous pre-war Contax II. To go with it, I bought three Russian lens, again, good copies of Zeiss Ikon lenses.

A few months have gone by and I had fun taking a few rolls of film. I should point out that this camera of 65 year old design has no automatic exposure much less autofocus. But I rememebered the F/16 rule, (how many or you know this?), so I can take good pictures outdoors under most conditions without consulting a exposure meter. (I have a couple of really excellent old exposure meters too.)

It's been good fun and certainly nostalgic: going back almost 50 years to my adolescence. But know what? The digital camera takes better better pictures with much more convenience. So I might haul out the Kiev and the various lenses once and while for the fun, but for serious picture taking it's the digital.

So I might keep my small LP collection a little longer and listen one once in a while for nostalgia's sake, but this won't be serious music appreciation.

[nightflier]

Feanor,

Interesting you should bring up cameras. I had a chance to play with the Leica digital and while it does offer many of the manual tuning features, it really wasn't the Leicas I remember. My father is a photographer and camera collector and he's the one who impressed on me the beauty of analog photography and I think it applies to music as well.

With analog film, even from a mediocre camera, the image can be exposed onto just about any size photographic paper, meaning that it's a lot like a raster image, it does not degrade as you zoom into it (provided you have the projector and photographic paper to do so, of course). This is impossible with digital because you're dealing with a finite pixel count - even the most advanced digital cameras have this limit because the medium is limitted - think of zooming in on a bit-mapped image.

With music, I think the same logic can apply. I don't know if I can quantify it the same way, but there is just the sense that zooming in on the microdynamics of an analog recording will not expose weaknesses like it would with a digital medium. Yes, the snap, crackle pop will still be there, but beyond that, what else is there to find fault with? The digital medium has always suffered from having to compare itself to the analog. Digital technology, whether in music or photography, will always be an approximation of the analog reality. Nature is not digital, it is analog.

Now we can debate ad infinitum on whether the digital medium's approximation shortcommings are audible, but I don't think that conversation would ever end.

By the way, my oldest is quite fond of my latest analog toy: an old Hasselblad top-down camera. It's about as analog as you can get and it takes quite a bit of work to get a good picture, but that is it's charm, I suppose. Oh yes, it takes great pictures of us sitting on the porch listening to Coltrane while I try and BBQ something (BBQ'ing is one analog skill I sorely lack).

[jim goulding]

I wonder what artists with their photographs hanging in galleries use. I know Stanley Kubrick, the filmaker, had a preference for an older camera that was used in Eyes Wide Shut. Wouldn't shoot without it I read. Your close strikes me as odd. Good for you for saying it but sounds kind of brain dead to me (regards analog). Why would you derive less serious musical appreciation from what's in those grooves any less than what's it those bits? What I'm getting is that your preference for the newer technology is strong. Too strong. But you don''t have many albums, anyway. You won't be gettin nominated for romantic of the year . . maybe pragmatist. I'm bettin that if you were to spend an afternoon at my house, you'd have an serious appreciation of music on vinyl. If you could be open minded, that is. Just in case, I got somethin for that.

[Feanor]

.... Your close strikes me as odd. Good for you for saying it but sounds kind of brain dead to me (regards analog). Why would you derive less serious musical appreciation from what's in those grooves any less than what's it those bits? ....

I gave my three reasons for preferring digital, (not specifically CD), earlier in this thread. Go back and read: the reasons didn't have to do with sound quality, not even with clicks & pops.

For years my music collection was very small, and it still is relatively. My object today is today is to own some version of all the most notable classical works -- this will take my collection above 1000 CDs (or equivalent). Also, I enjoy contemporary classical composers and works. The fact is that the selection I need is simply not available on LP.

Other than that, my earliest hi-fi experience was with vinyl -- I go back a dozen years before CD was even introduced. The rituals of LP handling have no residual charm for me whatsoever.

[jrhymeammo]

I totally respect Feanor's opinion, You know my system isnt top-notch, but damn I wish you hear what I hear.

If you ever come down for Kentucky Derby, you are always welcomed to come by my place. We'll spin some records, as well as shinny discs. I'll promise not to play anything with sythesized bass.

JRA

JRA

[Mr Peabody]

Everyone convene here tomorrow night at midnight to perform an exorcism on Feanor :) Maybe we'll include Bassite too, some one not old enough to legally buy alcohol who already has Mac and listens to Sinatra......

Bernd, do you ever check your email?

[Bernd]

Everyone convene here tomorrow night at midnight to perform an exorcism on Feanor :) Maybe we'll include Bassite too, some one not old enough to legally buy alcohol who already has Mac and listens to Sinatra......

Bernd, do you ever check your email?

Yes! Why?:)

[basite]

Maybe we'll include Basite too, some one not old enough to legally buy alcohol who already has Mac and listens to Sinatra......


hey, I can legally buy & drink alcohol here in Belgium, law says you have to be at least 16 years old... :)

but I don't drink too much alcohol, wine on family parties and sometimes with dinner, maybe a little martini, or fiero on occasions...


who already has Mac and listens to Sinatra......

wait till I get new speakers :ihih:

[Feanor]

Everyone convene here tomorrow night at midnight to perform an exorcism on Feanor :) Maybe we'll include Bassite too, some one not old enough to legally buy alcohol who already has Mac and listens to Sinatra......

Bernd, do you ever check your email?

I'm still here!!! :ihih:

[Mr Peabody]

Yes! Why?:)

I sent you an email through AR. I was curious about your signature and wondered if you have ever heard The Legend of Crazy Horse by JD Blackfoot. It's a cool 18 minute song. In one of the lines he says "there's no chance of us removing you, but wait til the day you get Sioux'd". If you haven't you might find it interesting.

I hope you plan to audition Dynaudio when looking for new speakers.

[Bernd]

....., but your e-mail never showed up. I will seek that song out. Thank you for the heads up.

Have a great weekend

:16:

[jrhymeammo]

Recently, I checked my cartridge with a different protractor, and found out that it needed to be adjusted quite a bit. I never screw down carts all the way, cuz It always moves with a final twist. I like to tighten just enough so that I can always readjust a cart just a smidget when attached. I guess it had moved after playng over hundreds of records, or just a different design of protractor.

I'm getting more Stereo separation with precision.

Note to self - Check the cart alignmnet at least once a month.

Hey Feanor, you should really hear it now. Com'on down and I'll make you rethink about vinyl. LOL.

Regards,

[Feanor]

...

Hey Feanor, you should really hear it now. Com'on down and I'll make you rethink about vinyl. LOL.

Regards,

JRA,

I have little doubt your system sounds great. :) I'd love to hear it sometime. But I think you're kind of missing the point about why I haven't got much use for vinyl.

[JohnMichael]

Recently, I checked my cartridge with a different protractor, and found out that it needed to be adjusted quite a bit. I never screw down carts all the way, cuz It always moves with a final twist. I like to tighten just enough so that I can always readjust a cart just a smidget when attached. I guess it had moved after playng over hundreds of records, or just a different design of protractor.

I'm getting more Stereo separation with precision.

Note to self - Check the cart alignmnet at least once a month.

Hey Feanor, you should really hear it now. Com'on down and I'll make you rethink about vinyl. LOL.

Regards,



JRA which protractor did you use? Curious minds want to know. The mounting hardware that came with the Benz was the first that would slide when tightened down. If you use a standard screw and nut and have the screw head below the cart and the nut on top of the headshell I have found it easier to tighten. Once tightened I have never had a cartridge change position. I usually find that I did not sight the protractor properly the first time.

[PeruvianSkies]

I wonder what artists with their photographs hanging in galleries use. I know Stanley Kubrick, the filmaker, had a preference for an older camera that was used in Eyes Wide Shut. Wouldn't shoot without it I read. Your close strikes me as odd. Good for you for saying it but sounds kind of brain dead to me (regards analog). Why would you derive less serious musical appreciation from what's in those grooves any less than what's it those bits? What I'm getting is that your preference for the newer technology is strong. Too strong. But you don''t have many albums, anyway. You won't be gettin nominated for romantic of the year . . maybe pragmatist. I'm bettin that if you were to spend an afternoon at my house, you'd have an serious appreciation of music on vinyl. If you could be open minded, that is. Just in case, I got somethin for that.

Kubrick was one of the few filmmakers who was also a cinematographer at the same time because he understood the motion picture camera inside and out. He knew how to get a certain 'look' and 'feel', which all of his films contain a unique signature to them that IS Kubrick. Each of his films he used a variety of cameras, but most of the time was using Mitchell and older models that often times gave a unique look, but more important to that is the film stock, which Kubrick also knew much about and would always make sure that the finished product resembled his vision and that requires the knowledge of all of the equipment. Of course BARRY LYNDON is one of the more famous stories where he retro-fitted Zeiss lenses onto the Mitchell (I believe BNC) models and was able to get the candles without any other lighting except natural lighting, this also gave the film little depth of film and flattened it out like a 17th Century painting, which was also appropriate.

The look of EYES WIDE SHUT is very interesting as well because it has a very golden tone to it, but also it has tons of grain and is relatively over-saturated to some degree, but there are contrasting golden scenes with light colder blue ones that work so well for the film and again, the result is a unique trademark that few films have this same quality.

[nightflier]

Basite,

If only we could have bought beer at 16, just imagine...

So what kind of speakers are you considering?

[Woochifer]

One of the guys here, not mentioning any names, Wooch, fails to see any increase in vinyl sales. I also noticed Amazon.com is carrying vinyl now. I haven't looked up any titles but I bet they have it cheaper than any of the other internet dealers of new vinyl. Quite an interesting trend.

Interesting trend in the sense that retailers are picking up on vinyl. However, are these retailers adding vinyl because the market is growing or because so many existing music outlets that previously sold vinyl have disappeared over the last decade? I'm remain unconvinced that Amazon and other retailers suddenly adding vinyl to their offerings will have a significant bottomline impact on the overall market. The article cited by the original poster contains these a couple of choice factoids:

"Our numbers, at least, don't really point to a resurgence," said Jonathan Lamy, the Recording Industry Association of America's director of communications. Likewise, Nielsen SoundScan, which registered a slight increase in vinyl sales last year, nonetheless showed a 43 percent decrease between 2000 and 2006.

Yet, the article keeps referring to a vinyl resurgence as if it was a factual trend without any solid data to back it up.

Like I've said in many previous discussions on this topic, talk of a vinyl "resurgence" has been ongoing since at least the early-90s when grunge bands began pressuring the record labels to issue their albums on LP. The primary change with vinyl over the past decade is that record companies now market LPs as a low volume, high margin product, which is a very different approach than when the LP was actually a mainstream format that cost less than the CD. And all the while, the majority of music continues to be sold on CDs, and the most significant market trend has been the shift towards digital file downloads.

The only way for the LP to become "mainstream" again would entail putting entire libraries of titles back into release, and competitively pricing them. Good luck trying to get any of the RIAA members to do that, given that all of them now outsource their LP manufacturing to small-scale production houses like RTI (which was interviewed for the article). The entire infrastructure for manufacturing LPs simply isn't setup for low cost, high volume production anymore. That's a major point that the article misses entirely.

I still have a turntable and prefer the sound of many LPs over their CD counterparts. Personally, I would love it if these vinyl prognostications came to pass -- I would personally benefit from more title and hardware choices, and better access to vinyl and turntable accessories. But, wishful thinking does not translate into market success. Just because the CD format is in a protracted decline does not mean that the LP will save the day in the end. Just because I'm not into digital file downloading does not deny the fact that it's now a much more significant driving force in the music industry than the LP.

Problem with articles like this is that they recycle long repeated points about vinyl's virtues and generalize personal preferences and observations into presumptions about larger trends, while ignoring the market data that tracks actual spending behavior. A previous thread on this subject cited a "scientific" study that talked about how young people preferred vinyl. Sounds like a great finding, until you find that the study was merely than an attitudinal survey. Sure, respondents said that they prefer vinyl, but how many of them had actually purchased LPs or turntables recently?

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=17362

I agree with the Wired article in the sense that the vinyl format will survive long after the CD goes by the wayside (the DJ market alone will ensure the turntable's survival). However, just because the LP will outlive the CD does not mean that the LP will somehow grow beyond its current status as a niche format.

[Feanor]

El-Cheapo noise reduction software exists, but you get what you pay for. Also, your not limited to software, there are hardware solutions too.

... :D

Circa 1978 I briefly owned a Phase Linear 4000 preamp, (yes! four channel), that had noise reduction. It sort of worked but I never decided really how well because the 4000 sounded like crap in general. I ended up with an Apt Holman.

[basite]

So what kind of speakers are you considering?


check your PM's :)

[JohnMichael]

check your PM's :)



I would also like to know.

[Mr Peabody]

Yeah, Bassite, let us all know. We won't make fun of you buying Bose...., much :)

Wooch, just giving you a hard time. When vinyl was taken off the market it left us to searching used stores and yard sales. There has to be some increase in interest for vinyl to become available new from so many outlets. The market has changed quite a bit from the 80's and even the record companies have changed for putting out CD's. I agree vinyl will never return to what it was in the market place. I'm hoping with Amazon jumping on the bandwagon that prices will go down some though. It also costs more to press a 180 to 200 gram album though and Mobile Fidelity was never cheap although still cheaper than most new vinyl today.

[jrhymeammo]

JM,

I used the one by both Vacuum State and turntable basics. I like the one by vacuum state better.

I agree with your experience on mounting a cart.
I like getting head low with my nuts up high.:devil:

Regards,

[JohnMichael]

JM,

I used the one by both Vacuum State and turntable basics. I like the one by vacuum state better.

I agree with your experience on mounting a cart.
I like getting head low with my nuts up high.:devil:

Regards,



I tried my best to give you rep points for this one.:mad2:

[jrhymeammo]

I was in absolute joy when I was browsing thru Amazon's vinyl search. I was thinking "WOW, look at all the BNs they have!!!" But what good is it when more than half are Out of Stock(very unlikey for a restock....) and most of them are used.

I must say, if I hadnt lived in Denver, I dont think I would've got into records. There were 3-4 record stores within walking distance and 4-5 more with a little drive. Here in Lexington, it's an absolute disaster. But a nice drive to Cincy tames my windigo.
With that in my, Peace Out! I think i'll go to Louisville.

Regards,

[basite]

I would also like to know.


Yeah, Bassite, let us all know. We won't make fun of you buying Bose...., much

Okay, Okay :)

I will give you some hints, which may, or may not guide you in the right direction.

1: It's not Bose, neither are they tiny
2: They're from America, where they are also built.
3: They're out of production since 2003, since then, their new model has continued this range...

Happy guessing, Rep points for who guesses right :)

no; those 3 who already know are not allowed to give the right answer before anyone else does, It would be kinda unfair :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

[Mr Peabody]

Martin Logan? If so, awesome choice.

I don't think Klipsch are built in U.S. anymore but please please don't say it's Klipsch.

I'm at a loss really as to what is even built here anymore. U.S. built should really limit the options.

[basite]

4: they're not planars, I wish my room was big enough for planars...

[Bernd]

Lithe ???

[basite]

5: no, they're not klipsches...
6: thick front baffle
7: coaxial mid/tweeter

(6&7 are pretty much dead giveaways...)

[jrhymeammo]

I still think you shouldnt getting a pair of Cain & Cain Abby. It would be crazy loud with your Mac!!!

[bobsticks]

I still think you shouldnt getting a pair of Cain & Cain Abby. It would be crazy loud with your Mac!!!

Nah, that wouldn't work. It'd be like putting .410 shotgun sheels in a 44MAG. A bit of overkill and really good for nothing. I thought briefly of picking up a pair of C&C's for use with a low-watt SET amp in a secondary setup but it seemed kinda limited. Overall, the best combo that I could mentally configure was a computer going straight to an Outlaw R2150 via USB, into the c&C's with a REL subwoofer. How's that for a mini system?

I suspect that our young friend is going a little higher up the food chain. Maybe some Tylers or Salk Sound? Those Veracitys are sure nice...

I'm surprised Flo hasn't been on this thread to gently explain that MLs aren't planars but electrostats.

Okay, Bert, I gotta know. Give me the PM.

[bobsticks]

Kewl.

Yer gonna piss off a lot of people. Nice work. :D

[jrhymeammo]

Kewl.

Yer gonna piss off a lot of people. Nice work. :D

I know, I'm really jealous cuz his systems gonna sound better than mine. Damn it, now I'm forced to upgrade. Hehehe.


Has anyone here found anything they want on Amazon? I think the selection is worst than mediocre. I hope they'll get it worked out, cuz I miss buying music thru Amazon. I used to get at least 1 package a week from Amazon when I used to live in Johnson City, TN.(What a Sh*t hole that place was....)

Happy listening to all,

[bobsticks]

I know, I'm really jealous cuz his systems gonna sound better than mine. Damn it, now I'm forced to upgrade. Hehehe.

While this may be true, nobody...and I mean nobody... does a better job at finding system synergy with the weirdest possible combos than our own periscope to unbalanced behavior in the modern world, Jay-Ra.

I know I eagerly await your next report on whatever Mr. Quan-San's Moss-Covered Three Handled Family Gredunzel KT 90 Tube doohickey...



...just kiddin' b :ciappa:

[Woochifer]

Wooch, just giving you a hard time. When vinyl was taken off the market it left us to searching used stores and yard sales. There has to be some increase in interest for vinyl to become available new from so many outlets. The market has changed quite a bit from the 80's and even the record companies have changed for putting out CD's. I agree vinyl will never return to what it was in the market place. I'm hoping with Amazon jumping on the bandwagon that prices will go down some though. It also costs more to press a 180 to 200 gram album though and Mobile Fidelity was never cheap although still cheaper than most new vinyl today.

A big part of that Wired article's argument is the ubiquity and high prices that used vinyl commands on eBay and similar outlets. To me, this does not represent market growth for the LP, but rather the evolution of LPs into more of a collector's item rather than something destined for mass consumption.

Used LPs have escalated in value simply because most of titles are out of print and will likely remain out of print, which in turn increases the scarcity (or perception thereof) that drives the market for any collector's item. Unlike CDs, vinyl can and will vary significantly from copy to copy -- the condition will vary, the pressing quality will vary, the mastering will vary. In-demand titles in mint/new condition will command attention and a high price simply because the number of quality LPs copies for most titles continues to decrease over time. You don't have the same collector's value with CDs because they either play or don't play -- you won't find much difference in value between one used CD copy over another.

While some outlets like Amazon and (purportedly) Circuit City recently added LPs to their offerings, you also need to consider the huge number of retail music stores that have been lost over the past decade. Between 1998 and 2005, the number of music stores in the U.S. declined from around 8,000 to about 5,500. (U.S. Census, County Business Patterns)

A lot of this had to do with CD sales shifting over to big box stores like WalMart, Best Buy, and Target, but these dedicated music outlets were also the likeliest places where you would find vinyl, and if a product line loses over 30% of its potential retailer outlets, then it needs to find new places of commerce. Sure, Amazon's a nice addition, but 2,500 defunct music stores also results in a market gap that these new vinyl outlets have an opportunity to fill. Until I see unit sales trending significantly upward (and none of the data I've seen shows LP sales in any kind of overall long term recovery), I can only conclude that this is more of a shift in demand from one retail avenue to another, rather than a fundamental increase in demand.

As for LP pricing, my Mobile Fidelity copy of Pink Floyd's The Dark Side Of The Moon still has the $17.99 price tag from Tower Records (R.I.P.) on the sleeve. Taking inflation into account, most of the new LPs nowadays are priced at about the same price points where you found audiophile vinyl in the mid-80s. Not much though is priced at a similar inflation-adjusted price point as the LPs that commonly sold for $5.99 to $8.99 during that same time period.

[jrhymeammo]

I had recently posted a thread about Classic Records releasing some of the BNote's most influential albums in 45rpm.
($50 an album)

I had decided to get on Acoustic Sounds and see what I can get for $300 to put under my TT, then the Homepage caught my attention.
They used words like "Universal", "Limited", "Japan", and other meaningless words I cannot remember...
Anyhow, I placed an order for a copy of:

Stevie Wonder - Innervision
Charlie Parker - Now's the Time

You guys should check it out, they got albums for almost everyone. Classical, Jazz, Stones, The Police, Clapton, Marley, etc.
($40 a pop, ouch..)

Finally, one of my recent favorites, Ben Webster. Analog Production has reissue of At the Renaissance for $150!! Just when I was checking out with 2 mentioned above, I noticed that I had

Coleman Hawkins - Night
Hawk

in my shopping cart for $75. Whatta hell was it doing in my shopping cart, and most imortantly whatta F' was I THINKING!!

Of course these are not for everyone, and it's not like companies have stop pressing wimpy 120Gs for $10 a pop. But I dont see'em producing great titles for $15 either..

If analog really is a niche market then fine, but I think this is going to far.

Regards,

PS, does anyone here wanna get rid of a copy of Amused to Death by Roger W? I'll pay $300 or $500 sealed.

[Mr Peabody]

A big part of that Wired article's argument is the ubiquity and high prices that used vinyl commands on eBay and similar outlets. To me, this does not represent market growth for the LP, but rather the evolution of LPs into more of a collector's item rather than something destined for mass consumption.

Used LPs have escalated in value simply because most of titles are out of print and will likely remain out of print, which in turn increases the scarcity (or perception thereof) that drives the market for any collector's item. Unlike CDs, vinyl can and will vary significantly from copy to copy -- the condition will vary, the pressing quality will vary, the mastering will vary. In-demand titles in mint/new condition will command attention and a high price simply because the number of quality LPs copies for most titles continues to decrease over time. You don't have the same collector's value with CDs because they either play or don't play -- you won't find much difference in value between one used CD copy over another.

> I'm not so sure about that, people were dumping vinyl in the 80's, you couldn't give it away let alone sell it. So why would people think it scarce now? Especially with titles being pressed new. By all accounts vinyl should have been a thing of the past by now. But it's not and people are buying turntables used/new and vinyl has become a commodity again.

While some outlets like Amazon and (purportedly) Circuit City recently added LPs to their offerings, you also need to consider the huge number of retail music stores that have been lost over the past decade. Between 1998 and 2005, the number of music stores in the U.S. declined from around 8,000 to about 5,500. (U.S. Census, County Business Patterns)

> I have been in several music stores since the 80's when vinyl went out and I have never seen new vinyl for sale. This isn't to say some where it may have been. The only place I've found vinyl until recent years was used records stores and other outlets for used vinyl.

A lot of this had to do with CD sales shifting over to big box stores like WalMart, Best Buy, and Target, but these dedicated music outlets were also the likeliest places where you would find vinyl, and if a product line loses over 30% of its potential retailer outlets, then it needs to find new places of commerce. Sure, Amazon's a nice addition, but 2,500 defunct music stores also results in a market gap that these new vinyl outlets have an opportunity to fill. Until I see unit sales trending significantly upward (and none of the data I've seen shows LP sales in any kind of overall long term recovery), I can only conclude that this is more of a shift in demand from one retail avenue to another, rather than a fundamental increase in demand.

As for LP pricing, my Mobile Fidelity copy of Pink Floyd's The Dark Side Of The Moon still has the $17.99 price tag from Tower Records (R.I.P.) on the sleeve. Taking inflation into account, most of the new LPs nowadays are priced at about the same price points where you found audiophile vinyl in the mid-80s. Not much though is priced at a similar inflation-adjusted price point as the LPs that commonly sold for $5.99 to $8.99 during that same time period.

> I actually have yet to buy a new vinyl and if the prices remain where they are at I won't. Now that I go to the record show occasionally and recently took a friends collection off his hands, I have vinyl backed up to listen to for some time. When my brother worked for the trash company he was hooking me up with free vinyl. He knew I wanted it, and if he found any that wasn't, trash, he'd bring them over. I ended up with a sealed copy of the Police, Syncronicity like that.

[Woochifer]

> I actually have yet to buy a new vinyl and if the prices remain where they are at I won't. Now that I go to the record show occasionally and recently took a friends collection off his hands, I have vinyl backed up to listen to for some time. When my brother worked for the trash company he was hooking me up with free vinyl. He knew I wanted it, and if he found any that wasn't, trash, he'd bring them over. I ended up with a sealed copy of the Police, Syncronicity like that.

Ah, that recalls the glory days of vinyl by the pound sales and dumpster diving!

The golden age of used vinyl was that window of time when the CD began to push the LP and cassette formats out the door. You had retailers desperate to clear out their remaining stock of LPs, and consumers desperate to sell their LPs so they could repopulate their music collections with CDs. Since I was a starving college student at the time, I could much more easily afford used LPs in excellent condition selling for less than $1 each than the newfangled CDs that were selling for approximately $14-$16 each (nearly twice what an average new LP cost). Problem with that market shift is that it devalued LPs to the point that it drove a lot of music retailers in my area specializing in quality used vinyl out of business (some of which did collector's grading on each LP).

Now, we're in a market where that stock of high quality low cost vinyl is largely depleted. What remains for sale is generally cheap vinyl is less than stellar condition and quality vinyl that commands a price premium. It's still possible to unearth a choice LP in the used record bins, but my searches as of late have been a lot less fruitful (and more expensive) than before.

[JohnMichael]

5: no, they're not klipsches...
6: thick front baffle
7: coaxial mid/tweeter

(6&7 are pretty much dead giveaways...)



I had two thoughts on the matter. KEF came to mind with their Uni Q drivers or some Thiel speakers.

[Feanor]

Ah, that recalls the glory days of vinyl by the pound sales and dumpster diving!

...
Now, we're in a market where that stock of high quality low cost vinyl is largely depleted. What remains for sale is generally cheap vinyl is less than stellar condition and quality vinyl that commands a price premium. It's still possible to unearth a choice LP in the used record bins, but my searches as of late have been a lot less fruitful (and more expensive) than before.

There are still a lot of people who insist that vinyl is a great deal because one can buy used LPs for a buck a piece. Oh yeah? Where can you do that? Not in the local shops where I am; not on eBay; not at Audiogon, etc. And certainly not the classical music I'm mainly interested in.

[Luvin Da Blues]

There are still a lot of people who insist that vinyl is a great deal because one can buy used LPs for a buck a piece. Oh yeah? Where can you do that? Not in the local shops where I am; not on eBay; not at Audiogon, etc. And certainly not the classical music I'm mainly interested in.

I just bought a fellow workers vinyl collection, 400 albums, mostly all in great shape, for a G note. Very mixed bag of goods, from Baez to Dire Straits to ZZ Top, with a few audiophile grade disks to boot. 90% have been professionally cleaned.

Now if I can shake this work thing I could be in heaven all day long.

[GMichael]

Okay, Okay :)

I will give you some hints, which may, or may not guide you in the right direction.

1: It's not Bose, neither are they tiny
2: They're from America, where they are also built.
3: They're out of production since 2003, since then, their new model has continued this range...

Happy guessing, Rep points for who guesses right :)

no; those 3 who already know are not allowed to give the right answer before anyone else does, It would be kinda unfair :)

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

Sparkomatics?

[nightflier]

There are still a lot of people who insist that vinyl is a great deal because one can buy used LPs for a buck a piece. Oh yeah? Where can you do that? Not in the local shops where I am; not on eBay; not at Audiogon, etc. And certainly not the classical music I'm mainly interested in.

Well I haven't bought from eBay in a while, but here are some promising auctions:

http://cgi.ebay.com/HUGE-LOT-64-CLASSICAL-LPS-RECORDS-RACHMANINOFF-BACH_W0QQitemZ120177702551QQihZ002QQcategoryZ306QQ ssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/CLASSICAL-COLLECTION-70-LP-Lot-NM-NM-VG_W0QQitemZ190169211738QQihZ009QQcategoryZ306QQss PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com/CLASSICAL-COLLECTION-MUSIC-75-LP-LOT-VG-NM-ONE-OWNER_W0QQitemZ190169817340QQihZ009QQcategoryZ306Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

And if you're in the bay area, you might want to give this guy a call:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/emd/464202741.html

The problem with buying LPs online is that shipping is never cheap. I prefer to find a used record store and see for myself what the surface looks like, but that does take some time. I also keep tabs on people I know that have decent collections and when they are getting rid of stuff, or they want to trade, I make sure I'm the first person they call.

[shokhead]

The digital delivery of music seems to have absorbed much of the sales of traditional CDs.

However, Vinyl sales are rising and market futures look optimistic. Could Vinyl ultimately be around to see the demise of the CD?

http://www.wired.com/entertainment/music/commentary/listeningpost/2007/10/listeningpost_1029

In short,NO!.

[Feanor]

nightflier, thanks again.

Checking out the eBay offerings, I see that it's indeed (most likely) possible to buy LPs at a buck a piece. Maybe I'll watch these lots and see what they actually go for.

But let's say it's $1 per. LPs are pretty heavy and one seller suggested $2 per or a bit more, so we're talking about $3 per, shipped. Shipping into Canada, a large package of records is likely to attract brokerage, tax, and duties, maybe 25% of declared value, so we're at $3.25 per.

With lots like these I've got to take the good with the bad. Of the titles, I'd say at most 50% would be of any interest to me, and of these a few would likely be in bad shape, so let's say 33% are valuable. Do the math and we're looking at almost $10 per. That's not much less than what I pay on average for the CDs I buy, (I'm bargain hunter plus I buy a lot of Naxos). So I think I'll pass.

[jim goulding]

Go to Bis Records and click on About Bis. This is a Scandanavian outfit who may can tell you how to pick a couple of sides. Excellent recordings with a focus on native composers. Happy trails.

[Mr Peabody]

Yip, it must be Thiel. Those also sound very sweet but the models I've heard haven't exactly been bass monsters.

It's interesting that a home speaker would use coaxials when those have been criticized to sell components in car audio.

[bobsticks]

Go to Bis Records and click on About Bis. This is a Scandanavian outfit who may can tell you how to pick a couple of sides. Excellent recordings with a focus on native composers. Happy trails.

Abso-frikken-lutely. BIS does some fantastic stuff much of which comes out on SACD. I have several from their eclectic catalogue including three or four from Edvard Grieg, which I regard as the best interpretations of Grieg I've ever heard. "Norwegian Dances", "Slovakian Dances", and "Symphony in C" are all excellent as is the "Peer Gynt" boxed set. Interestingly, many of the multi-channel offerings are in 5.0 so those with sub/sat combos may want to beware. Fullrange is a must.

The Kempf Trio's "Beethoven's Piano Trios", a disc that I have flogged repeatedly, is also from the good fellows at BIS.

[jim goulding]

Bobby- You are full of surprises.

[bobsticks]

Yeah, I'm kinda bougie--like Gatsby but without the problems.

[nightflier]

Feanor,

I can't change the import/export duties across the border. You'll have to mount your own protests (I'm sure the recent governement policies on both sides of our borders are a large part of the reason - so much for that liberals-raise-taxes mantra they're always ranting about). Anyhoo, I don't deny that with shipping, it does make LPs less competitive. That's why for the best deals you have to wander the weekend garage sales and swap meets. It's not the easiest way to buy but it can definitely be rewarding - especially for those of us who buy less-mainstream stuff like classical and jazz.

Speaking of streams, I bough a collection of New Third Stream LPs from a guy two weeks ago and it was all pristine condition - said he got it from an estate sale and he "hated" that stuff. After haggling, I ended up paying $40 for over two dozen LPs (Scorched, SteamTeam, Vitous, etc.). So yes, there's some good stuff to be had, but you have to hunt for it.

Bobsticks, thanks for the link. BIS has a nice selection and good prices, but no way to listen to samples. That's OK for the better known stuff, but I'm always on the lookout for new & modern stuff - and for that I need to hear it. Although I suppose the surprise is OK sometime.

[jrhymeammo]

also comes from lack of availability. I guess it's just a personal tyle, but I love digging, LP stores with a friendly service that has a tinkle facility gets alot more money from me than other that do not. I dont mind going thru hundreds of crates, as long as I can take my time.

Nothing is sweeter than finding a good copy of albums you've been searching for a long time. Maybe that's one of the reasons why reissues do not sound as good as originals. Hmmmm......


NP: Charlie Partker: Now's the Time.(Universal Reissue).


Hey Bas, did you get the pair yet? I've thought you got them by now.
JRA

[squeegy200]

There are still a lot of people who insist that vinyl is a great deal because one can buy used LPs for a buck a piece. Oh yeah? Where can you do that? Not in the local shops where I am; not on eBay; not at Audiogon, etc. And certainly not the classical music I'm mainly interested in.

I usually stop by thrift shops and second hand stores. Estate sales are also great places to find boxes of LPs. Oftentimes I can pick up a box of LPs for around $10. Most are trash but I sometimes find jewels amongst the chaff.

My local audio club also has a software event every year. Every member brings their extras and sells them. These are usually in very good shape and my local club has a few distributors amongst its membership so there's usually quite a selection to choose from.

The best source is friends who no longer own turntables. I've acquired a handful of collections from people I've known who discover that I'm still listening to the spinning wax. They tell me they no longer have a turntable and often are glad to clean out their closets.

[Feanor]

...

The best source is friends who no longer own turntables. I've acquired a handful of collections from people I've known who discover that I'm still listening to the spinning wax. They tell me they no longer have a turntable and often are glad to clean out their closets.

I have a couple of hundred LPs; I rarely, (virtually never), listen to them, and I'd be glad to get rid of them some how other than just pitching them in the trash. Most are in very good to excellent condition.

Buyer pays shipping. Email me if you're interested.

[kexodusc]

Feanor (and any other music buying Canadians) - the way to buy LP's from the US is just to make sure the Value for duty is below $20 on your purchases, or just ensure the shipper is using USPS - you won't be charged brokerage by Canada Post/USPS. I don't always take advantage of "combined shipping" offers just to keep the vfd below $20. Of course sometimes it's not that big a hit in which case going over $20 isn't the end of the world.
On used LP's or used CD's most most ebayers I've dealt with just declare them as "used LP's" at below $20 (unless you're buying a bunch of rare, expensive LP's or something). Customs has a fast-tracked system for sub-$20 imports so they just get courier-remissioned and you don't pay any taxes, duty, brokerage or handling fees. I frequently instruct the shippers to send items in bundles of just under $20 to avoid surcharges (ie, 4 or 5 cd's in one package, 4 or 5 in another) - I might pay more in extra shipping, but I often save 3 or 4 times that additional cost by avoiding the surcharges. Makes buying abroad a lot more attractive. Makes ordering on line a bit more time consuming, but I'll surrender to redundancy to save money.

Sometimes though the import fees aren't all that bad - I bought 12 albums last week, 8 SACD's and 4 CD's. Total VFD was $158 CAD - I took the guy up on the combined shipping rate - think it was an additional $9 total which was pretty good.
I had to pay the tax at 14% but there is no duty on anything made in North America (one nice thing about NAFTA) and no brokerage because the shipper used USPS, which hands it over to the government owned Canada Post, who doesn't impose brokerage levies on the public that UPS and Fed Ex do for reasons I won't get into.
I even had a CD made in Japan but the shipper just assumed USA so that's all he declared. I figure I saved at least $80 over the best rate I could find inside the country - the tax I would have to pay anyway. Quite a bit of wiggle room to still make ordering from the US cheaper. SACD's aren't usually as cheap here and are a bit harder to find in my neck of the woods.

[Feanor]

I frequently order CDs from ArkivMusic.com. Obviously Arkiv charge lower per item shipping when orders are combined, so I order that way. Even though my combined orders are generally much more than $20, I rarely pay any duty or Canada Post changes. How come?

Well, Archiv, despite combined shipping charge, actually ships the constituent items separately from different locations, so the individual package is often <$20.

I believe there is another "unofficial" factor at work. I suspect Canada Post often delivers physically small packages without inspection regardless of declared value -- if true, another advantage of CDs over LPs. :smilewinkgrin:

[musicoverall]

I have a couple of hundred LPs; I rarely, (virtually never), listen to them, and I'd be glad to get rid of them some how other than just pitching them in the trash. Most are in very good to excellent condition.

Buyer pays shipping. Email me if you're interested.

I set up an account just to clean out some old stuff I wasn't listening to. It took off so fast and furious that I now have an actual internet business buying and selling. Over the last 120 days, I've sold about 400 CD's. I'm mostly selling CD's but I have a ton of LP's to list when I get the time. It's still just "additional income" - I still have to work! :)

I tell you this because if you still have the LP's and I buy them from you, I will resell them at most certainly a handsome profit. That profit could be yours!

[Feanor]

I set up an account just to clean out some old stuff I wasn't listening to. It took off so fast and furious that I now have an actual internet business buying and selling. Over the last 120 days, I've sold about 400 CD's. I'm mostly selling CD's but I have a ton of LP's to list when I get the time. It's still just "additional income" - I still have to work! :)

I tell you this because if you still have the LP's and I buy them from you, I will resell them at most certainly a handsome profit. That profit could be yours!

Well great, moa. Glad you're doing well with it.

When you say "set up an account", what/where are you referring to? I've bought/sold stuff on eBay. Not difficult, but LPs are heavy, so that's some discouragement for selling, and a really big discouragement for buying with any prospect of reselling at a profit.

As for selling mys stuff, the question is whether I can first be bothered digitizing them. Right now I have a post asking for advice about a low cost phono preamp since I don't have one at the moment.

[nightflier]

Well great, moa. Glad you're doing well with it.

When you say "set up an account", what/where are you referring to? I've bought/sold stuff on eBay. Not difficult, but LPs are heavy, so that's some discouragement for selling, and a really big discouragement for buying with any prospect of reselling at a profit.

As for selling mys stuff, the question is whether I can first be bothered digitizing them. Right now I have a post asking for advice about a low cost phono preamp since I don't have one at the moment.

You have a point, but I think if you buy in bulk (sometimes LPs are sold by the crate or palette), and do a little research, you can separate out the valuable pieces and sell them at a decent markup - if you combine that with weekend trips to garage sales, estate sales and swap meets, you could easily make some extra cash.

I have a friend who buys whole stereo systems on eBay and elsewhere, separates out the components and resells them piecemeal - he doesn't even have to buy packing materials since he usually flips most of the stuff right away. The best part is that over the last four years he has been able to put together a very nice hi-fi setup from the gear and it cost him very little. He is a high-school counselor during the day, so he's not rolling in the money, but the extra eBay income has all been going into his "vacation fund" and I'll tell you he's been to a lot of places I would love to be able to go to. If you consider how much longer and healthier he will live as a result... well anyhow, my point is that there's ways to make this work.

Regarding the digitizing of LP's I have to agree that's a painstaking process. I record them onto a CD-RW using a recorder in my rack, then I take the disk to the computer, where I have to copy it to the hard drive and clean up the snaps crackles & pops using audio software, and then re-burn it to a regular CD-R. Some tips I would offer:

- Use good software. I played with Audacity but I get far more mileage out of Sony software. Yes, it's Sony, but it works very well.

- Use a record cleaner. Spring for the NittyGritty base model, it's a whole lot better than a carbon fiber brush.

- Like any project, expect it to take twice as long as you think.

- The ProJect PhonoBox is an excellent bargain-basement preamp, but if you can spring for it, get something better like the Jolida JD9a. I use a Phonomena, but I'm still lusting after that Jolida.

- Use a decent turntable and cartridge. I know this goes w/o saying, but $100 TT isn't going to cut it.

- Make backups - there's nothing like loosing 30Gb of songs to remind you of that. Automate them for when you're not at the computer, if you have to.

And the best tip that has nothing to do with sound quality? Use a Lightscribe CD burner. If you start accumulating CD-Rs like I have, there's nothing more annoying that having to search for that one song by re-checking a bunch of hand-labeled or blank CDs in a stack. Lightscribe burns an image onto the disk after you burn the music w/o needing ink or dies - this feature is priceless.

I hope this helps a little.

[Feanor]

You have a point, but I think if you buy in bulk (sometimes LPs are sold by the crate or palette), and do a little research, you can separate out the valuable pieces and sell them at a decent markup - if you combine that with weekend trips to garage sales, estate sales and swap meets, you could easily make some extra cash.

I have a friend who buys whole stereo systems on eBay and elsewhere, separates out the components and resells them piecemeal - he doesn't even have to buy packing materials since he usually flips most of the stuff right away. The best part is that over the last four years he has been able to put together a very nice hi-fi setup from the gear and it cost him very little. He is a high-school counselor during the day, so he's not rolling in the money, but the extra eBay income has all been going into his "vacation fund" and I'll tell you he's been to a lot of places I would love to be able to go to. If you consider how much longer and healthier he will live as a result... well anyhow, my point is that there's ways to make this work.

Regarding the digitizing of LP's I have to agree that's a painstaking process. I record them onto a CD-RW using a recorder in my rack, then I take the disk to the computer, where I have to copy it to the hard drive and clean up the snaps crackles & pops using audio software, and then re-burn it to a regular CD-R. Some tips I would offer:

- Use good software. I played with Audacity but I get far more mileage out of Sony software. Yes, it's Sony, but it works very well.

- Use a record cleaner. Spring for the NittyGritty base model, it's a whole lot better than a carbon fiber brush.

- Like any project, expect it to take twice as long as you think.

- The ProJect PhonoBox is an excellent bargain-basement preamp, but if you can spring for it, get something better like the Jolida JD9a. I use a Phonomena, but I'm still lusting after that Jolida.

- Use a decent turntable and cartridge. I know this goes w/o saying, but $100 TT isn't going to cut it.

- Make backups - there's nothing like loosing 30Gb of songs to remind you of that. Automate them for when you're not at the computer, if you have to.

And the best tip that has nothing to do with sound quality? Use a Lightscribe CD burner. If you start accumulating CD-Rs like I have, there's nothing more annoying that having to search for that one song by re-checking a bunch of hand-labeled or blank CDs in a stack. Lightscribe burns an image onto the disk after you burn the music w/o needing ink or dies - this feature is priceless.

I hope this helps a little.

Could be that in a couple of years, (that's all :cornut: ), when I'm retired, I'll try some eBay dealing or that sort of thing. Meanwhile my prioritiy is to digitize the LPs, then get rid of them. My collection is small anyway, so I'll have to make do with my old Technics direct drive. The Pro-Ject sounds like a good bit though I'll be looking for used.

I'll try going recording directly to computer since my M-Audio Audiophile USB supports via analog RCA inputs. I have a copy of OEM Nero that I expect to use.

[Mr Peabody]

Musicoverall, do you have a "bluebook" for LP's or similar? In my last collection I obtained there were some Lenny Bruce LP's and I understand they could potentially be worth a pretty penny. I need to dig them back out, check the condition and titles.

Feanor, the Creek OBH-8 is a killer little preamp. I thought about some day getting one of those music servers, cd recorder with hard drive, to use as a transport and toload vinyl favs. But it's still just a thought.

[musicoverall]

Well great, moa. Glad you're doing well with it.

When you say "set up an account", what/where are you referring to? I've bought/sold stuff on eBay. Not difficult, but LPs are heavy, so that's some discouragement for selling, and a really big discouragement for buying with any prospect of reselling at a profit.

As for selling mys stuff, the question is whether I can first be bothered digitizing them. Right now I have a post asking for advice about a low cost phono preamp since I don't have one at the moment.

As Nightflier mentioned, selling the valuable ones individually is the way to go. Ebay works the best for LP's. I sell my non-valuable CD's via Amazon, as the market price is already set and it's pretty simple. Valuable CD's and LP's go up for bid on Ebay. I usually set the starting price fairly low and the demand (or lack of) demand determines the ending bid price.

So the pain then becomes buying boxes and boxing up individual LP's. I'm not aware of anyplace that buys classical LP's but there are a few places in the U.S that buy jazz collections. You might start a post to see if anyone knows of someone that buys classical collections. You may not get a bundle of money but if you're selling in bulk and you get $2 per, that's way better than throwing them away. And if I could trouble you to put a list together, I might be interested as well. No cherry picking - I'd take the lot since you mentioned that they are all in good shape.

[musicoverall]

Musicoverall, do you have a "bluebook" for LP's or similar? In my last collection I obtained there were some Lenny Bruce LP's and I understand they could potentially be worth a pretty penny. I need to dig them back out, check the condition and titles.

Feanor, the Creek OBH-8 is a killer little preamp. I thought about some day getting one of those music servers, cd recorder with hard drive, to use as a transport and toload vinyl favs. But it's still just a thought.

No, I don't. LP values are a crapshoot for me, as they are for most people. But I agree Lenny Bruce LP's should have some value. The deal with LP's for me is unless I know they're valuable, I usually sell them in lots - about, say, five at a time - like 5 Bruckner symphonies or 5 early Miles Davis'. Speaking of Miles, I have a Japanese Columbia issue of Miles only recording with Sam Rivers on tenor (the same Sam in my postscript below). Can't seem to find a value on it but I should think it would be worth at least $25 in its near mint condition.

[musicoverall]

Well great, moa. Glad you're doing well with it.

When you say "set up an account", what/where are you referring to? I've bought/sold stuff on eBay. Not difficult, but LPs are heavy, so that's some discouragement for selling, and a really big discouragement for buying with any prospect of reselling at a profit.

As for selling mys stuff, the question is whether I can first be bothered digitizing them. Right now I have a post asking for advice about a low cost phono preamp since I don't have one at the moment.

If you're just going to use it to copy LP's to CDR (or hard drive) don't spend a lot of money. The Pro-Ject mentioned below will work just fine and then when you're done with it, you won't have a lot of cash tied up in something you won't use.

On the other hand, if you can find the Jolida or Creek used on Audiogon, you might be able to resell it when you're done with it for the same amount as you paid!

Good luck! Email me if you need anything. I still think I'm going to pattern my next system after yours. :)

[Feanor]

.... And if I could trouble you to put a list together, I might be interested as well. No cherry picking - I'd take the lot since you mentioned that they are all in good shape.

I'll put to together a list and email it to you. Most of the LPs are in excellent condition; a few have a minor scratch, and a few could stand for a good cleaning. About 50% are classical the rest are assorted but 30% '60s/'70s folk, folk-rock, rock, the rest are hokey stuff or one kind or another. Unfortunately no jazz at all.

[musicoverall]

I'll put to together a list and email it to you. Most of the LPs are in excellent condition; a few have a minor scratch, and a few could stand for a good cleaning. About 50% are classical the rest are assorted but 30% '60s/'70s folk, folk-rock, rock, the rest are hokey stuff or one kind or another. Unfortunately no jazz at all.

That's cool. Classical music on LP tends to be the domain of the audiophile. Most classical music lovers (of the non-audiophile variety) prefer CD. Can't say I blame them, as their reasons have more to do with record noise and the 20 minute side length max that breaks up a performance than actual sound quality - not to say LP's sound better than CD's because that's an argument for another thread... and best left argued by those with an opinion. I've got examples of both media sounding better than the other.

[squeegy200]

I set up an account just to clean out some old stuff I wasn't listening to. It took off so fast and furious that I now have an actual internet business buying and selling. Over the last 120 days, I've sold about 400 CD's. I'm mostly selling CD's but I have a ton of LP's to list when I get the time. It's still just "additional income" - I still have to work! :)

I tell you this because if you still have the LP's and I buy them from you, I will resell them at most certainly a handsome profit. That profit could be yours!

My old boss sold LPs on eBay as a hobby. He had quite a system of buying and selling. He would constantly flog his Nitty Gritty on LPs he sold and packaged in preparation for transit.

He had over 20000 LPs in his home when i visited and he indicated he cleared over ~$500 USD per week with his hobby selling used LPs.