B&W or Klipsch with Yamaha

[koop]

My long term goal is to have a complete audio system focused more on music but still cabable of HT. Must be able to fill a large room (approx. 20'x30'). I like all music (Beasties, Clapton, Medeski, Chopin etc.) and all movies. Clarity is the priority but sometimes I do like to feel my organs shake. I started with a Yamaha rx-v3300 for my receiver and have financially recovered now. My first thought is to purchase used speakers from the local paper or ebay or the like. Is this a bad idea? I have only begun researching and B&W and Klipsch are two names that keeping popping up. Any others I should actively search for? In my local paper there is a complete B&W system 603 towers, cc6 center, sub, and surrounds. What is a good price? Ad says they are in great condition. A pair of Klipsch Forte towers and KG 4 towers have also recently appeared. Does my Yamaha have enough good clean power to run any of these speakers? I feel overwhelmed my all the information out there which is a full time job to filter through. Thanks so much to ever helps bring some clarity to the situation. :D

[92135011]

I don't think the horn tweeter sound of the klipsch gonna fit well with those artists you just described...on the other hand I hear that the horn is great for movies! gun shots, explosions, etc. sound great! but...on the other hand...maybe I'm on crack :)

[JSE]

This is my opinion based on hearing these speakers and receiver seperately. The Klipsch are bright speakers and the Yamaha receiver's tend to be a bit brighter than others. Put the two together and you may have one bright-arse system. You may like it, you may not. The B&W speakers you mentioned tend to be a bit warmer and laid back than others. This might be a good combination with the Yamaha.. Again, this is a total guess based on what I know of each speaker and receiver. Reality may be a bit different, but I bet I am on the right track in terms of general sound characteristics. Something to think about.

Have you listened to Klipsch? They are great speakers but they are a love/hate speaker. I can't listen to them. They are way too birght for my taste, but some people love them. I would guess that the B&W's would be more appealing to the masses. They are also a great speaker.

There, my not so clear answer.

JSE

[koop]

I should mention my current budget. I have about $2000 to work with for a speaker package. If purchasing individual components, the towers would have to come last because my wife would not tolerate them in our current, small living room. The big room will come in the next year or so when we move. A new center, sub, and surround can be made to blend in.

[koop]

Thanks for the help JSE. I have only auditioned the Klipsch RSW subs, not their speakers. I always feel a little guilty auditioning in a store if I know I buying used, assuming its not a bad idea.

[JSE]

By the way, I reread my post and I want to make clear that the Yamaha 3300 receiver you have is an excellent receiver. Kindof sounded like I slammed it for being bright. It's not, Yamaha just tends to be brighter than some.

JSE

[Woochifer]

The issue with the Klipsch Forte is that you may not be able to find any center or surround speakers that are a good match for those. A friend of mine owns a pair of them, and they sound pretty different from the Reference and Synergy speakers that they primarily market now. The Fortes great speakers if you're looking for a very deep, heavy, and aggressive sound. But, another word of caution -- the woofers use foam surrounds and the ones on my friend's speakers have shown signs of rot.

The B&Ws depend on which 600 series models you're talking about. In general, they're a more laid back and balanced sound than what you find with Klipsch. Judging by the center speaker model you listed, the ones you saw are probably either the S1 or S2 series. When I auditioned the 600 series a few years ago, I was very impressed with the DM603, but thought it was a bit overpriced compared to the bookshelf DM602 model. If there's a weak link in the B&Ws of that vintage it was with the center and surround speakers. The CC6 was not a very well matched center speaker for the 600 models, and the DS6 surround speaker was also a not so strong offering. Brand new, the speakers (w/o subwoofer) listed for about $1,850.

The 3300 is a solid receiver, and either the Klipsch or B&W would work fine with that model. Yamahas have a reputation for being bright, but I have not observed that with their models from the last three years.

[RGA]

It really depends on the Klipsh. The most famous Klipschhorn is one of the great loudspeakers and high end horns have the lowest distortion of any design and the highest sensitivity of any design. But this is more about Avante-garde(another horn maker) than Klipsh. I have horn loaded Wharfedales others are soft dome with horn like designs....none sound remotely alike.

I was impressed by the Klipsch Reference series and one big reason is they are easy to drive making receivers less winded. Solid tight punchy bass. Klipshc is a great rocker brand but better than just a rocker. B&W is a bit more balanced and neautral and the s3 series is very strong. All that said nothing is accurate so why not get the one that sounds the most fun. I don't perceive the horns as bright but they are certainly forward...which means the upper frequencies jump out at you...but they don't ring or behave as badly as many other basic metal domes.

[Debbi]

....very much the same case with Yamaha receivers and Klipsch speakers.... one of those old "wives tales" ...aint so...I have paired Yamaha and Denon with Klipsch Reference and Synergy series and frankly, no difference.I have a set of Boston CR8 bookshelves which really do hurt your ears and are painfully cheap...The Klipsch have the added advantage of efficiency which gives you are little margin of overkill for HT. The difference in sound of of electronics is very limited...shop the speakers because thats where the real preference is.

[koop]

Woochifer, thanks for the heads up on the foam on the Fortes. Has any one else seen problems with used speakers?

[topspeed]

Are you in the process of building or just guessing that your next house is going to have a 600s.f.(!) living/HT room? That's big...as in twice as big as a normal living room. If you're building with a dedicated HT room, I can understand the size and if so you're going to need at least a 7.1 system in my guesstimation.

The Klipch Forte's are terrific speakers and would actually be great for a huge room like that. They throw an impressively large soundstage and they are very efficient. Unfortunately as Woochifer noted, finding a matching center is going to a daunting task indeed. For a room that size I'd lean towards the Klipsch's, and I'm a B&W owner. The Forte's were made during Klipsch golden era with the Klipschorns, Forte II, Cornwall, LaScala, Heresy, etc.. Man those speakers were so over the top you had to love 'em! Unfortunately, todays products just don't do it for me but if I had a 600sf listening room, I'd be very tempted to find a pair of Klipschorns!

As far buying used speaks, I personally don't have a problem with it, especially as you get into the higher end. Most audiophiles take meticulous care of their toys...kinda like gearheads and their cars. Foam rolls are definitely a concern but can also be replaced. Just use good judgement and common sense when researching any used equipment. Audiogon.com is populated with audiophiles so I'd feel a little safer purchasing from there versus e-bay. Still Caveat Emptor and all.

[spacedeckman]

on forum chatter? That will get you into the most serious "love/hate" cases. You need to broaden your horizons a bit. There are a lot of good speaker choices out there, and only you know what will make you happy.

Personally, I put both Klipsch and B&W on my personal "bad" list. The Klipsch tend to be boomy and really bright, and would be a horrible choice for classical music, especially piano or strings. They are "exciting" speakers, but will probably tend to get on your nerves over time due to the incessant bombast. (dang, I like big words sometimes). But, YOU are the one who is going to have to make this choice. I couldn't live with them.

B&Ws are the polar opposite, but I hate their tweeters and overall voicing. If I had to choose, it would be B&W of the two, but that would negate a couple of dozen speakers that would be a SUPERIOR choice to my ears. Keep in mind that you don't need excessively big fronts if you are going to use a subwoofer (Please buy a good one, Klipsch is not one of those) that is tuned for wide bandwidth output, not a one-note wonderbox that plays one note really loud.

On the speaker front, I've got a pair of freight damaged Mirage Omni 50 bookshelves that sound really neat, there are two tower versions with 5 and 6 inch woofers. Energy's C series is very good. I'm not a Paradigm fan myself, but there are those that really like them. Acoustic Energy's Aegis Three is very nice, and I guess they have a new line coming out this spring, not sure of pricing. Quad has some speakers that are in your price range that are really nice. Entry level Dynaudio would work. Anyway, the point is, go find what YOU like, not what everyone talks about. I'm willing to bet that the optimal speaker choice for you isn't going to be either B&W or Klipsch, but something inbetween. Have fun searching, and, don't worry, there isn't much that a 3300 can't drive exceedingly well. VERY nice piece.

[Worf101]

Are you in the process of building or just guessing that your next house is going to have a 600s.f.(!) living/HT room? That's big...as in twice as big as a normal living room. If you're building with a dedicated HT room, I can understand the size and if so you're going to need at least a 7.1 system in my guesstimation.

The Klipch Forte's are terrific speakers and would actually be great for a huge room like that. They throw an impressively large soundstage and they are very efficient. Unfortunately as Woochifer noted, finding a matching center is going to a daunting task indeed. For a room that size I'd lean towards the Klipsch's, and I'm a B&W owner. The Forte's were made during Klipsch golden era with the Klipschorns, Forte II, Cornwall, LaScala, Heresy, etc.. Man those speakers were so over the top you had to love 'em! Unfortunately, todays products just don't do it for me but if I had a 600sf listening room, I'd be very tempted to find a pair of Klipschorns!

As far buying used speaks, I personally don't have a problem with it, especially as you get into the higher end. Most audiophiles take meticulous care of their toys...kinda like gearheads and their cars. Foam rolls are definitely a concern but can also be replaced. Just use good judgement and common sense when researching any used equipment. Audiogon.com is populated with audiophiles so I'd feel a little safer purchasing from there versus e-bay. Still Caveat Emptor and all.

I've owned a lot of Klipsch over the years. I tend to love their sound, hate their looks. Just happens that way. Most of my experience with B&W came about as a result of dealing with them in recording studios. A lot of work with the 801 matrix and Nautius 805's and up. I find your characterizations of them to be essentially my own. For listening I'd do the Klipsch for mixing the B&W's, they force you to mix a little "hot" which is sometimes a good thing.

Da Worfster :o

[koop]

We have not begun construction yet, but an openish floor plan pushes the main room size to about 600 sq. ft. I am not a completely open floor plan kind of guy and thus envision some room definition provided by some bookshelves and perhaps a monster aquarium (maybe 250 - 500 gal? currently own a 120 gal.) What should I be thinking about to maximize the inherent acoustics of a room? Thank you everybody for all your help so far. What are some sub manufacturers you like? If I got a sub alone right now, It could be in the $1000 range (assuming wife approval Ha-Ha!)

[RGA]

Woochifer, thanks for the heads up on the foam on the Fortes. Has any one else seen problems with used speakers?

First of all foam gets a bad rap...most consider it to sound superior than any other type of surround. Replacing the foam is dirt cheap - cheaper than replacing any other kind. Assuming you don't trat them like crap and have them in brutal high changing environments like very hot and humid and then freezing cold foam will last 20 years+ Expect 10 before you have to even look.

My speaker uses rubber and the company is moving to foam and it'll be the UPGRADE of choice for me when the time permits.

Woochifer is incorrect abbout the center speaker which only he seems to dislike so I frankly think his audition was the problem or the unit under auddition was at issue. Besides you could buy the LCR600 S3 for the older line.

And I agree I wouldtake the 602 over the 603 but the 603 would be my choice as a floorstander in the price range...just that the 602S3 with a sub would be about the same price which makes a bit more sense to me.

[Woochifer]

First of all foam gets a bad rap...most consider it to sound superior than any other type of surround. Replacing the foam is dirt cheap - cheaper than replacing any other kind. Assuming you don't trat them like crap and have them in brutal high changing environments like very hot and humid and then freezing cold foam will last 20 years+ Expect 10 before you have to even look.

RGA, the Forte is a model that got discontinued about 8 years ago, so foam rot on those models IS an issue. Foam gets a bad rap, but the fact is that my friends' Fortes are less than 10 years old and the foam surrounds on those units have begun rotting. The conditions in his house are temperate and controlled with no direct sun or anything else to prematurely age the drivers. The replacement for foam just adds to the cost of speaker acquisition and prevents the buyer from conducting a valid listening before buying if the foam is rotting. You wouldn't recommend buying a speaker not knowing what it would sound like after foam replacement, would you?


Woochifer is incorrect abbout the center speaker which only he seems to dislike so I frankly think his audition was the problem or the unit under auddition was at issue. Besides you could buy the LCR600 S3 for the older line.

Who the F are you to say that I'm incorrect about an observation? You HAVE NOT actually listened to that center speaker patched into a line up with other 600 series speakers, I HAVE. Your opinion about how I reached my conclusion is nothing but blind speculation. The CC6 is IMO a lousy center speaker because it DOES NOT adequately match the 600 series speakers that B&W recommends for it. And with center speakers, ALL THAT MATTERS is the voice matching with the mains.

The CC6 used different drivers from the other 600 series speakers that I was auditioning, so my observation should not be surprising. Their newer center speakers now use the same tweeters and comparable midrange drivers as the mains, so I would not expect the same kinds of voice matching problems. However, I was addressing the question at hand, which specifically included the CC6 center speaker. Bringing newer center speaker models into the discussion is basically asking someone to buy a system and junk the center speaker and spend more money buying a new one that was voiced matched for a different series. Try reading the post and then answer the question if you want to add value to the discussion, rather than bringing in all these irrelevancies. I have nothing against B&W, and I've always recommended that people give the 600 series a listen. But, I'll also call a spade a spade when I hear one.

[topspeed]

We have not begun construction yet, but an openish floor plan pushes the main room size to about 600 sq. ft. I am not a completely open floor plan kind of guy and thus envision some room definition provided by some bookshelves and perhaps a monster aquarium (maybe 250 - 500 gal? currently own a 120 gal.) What should I be thinking about to maximize the inherent acoustics of a room? Thank you everybody for all your help so far. What are some sub manufacturers you like? If I got a sub alone right now, It could be in the $1000 range (assuming wife approval Ha-Ha!)


Maximizing placement will depend on how your system interacts with the space involved. You are the only one that will be familiar with either so short of bringing in a pro, you'll have to figure it out on your own. There are room treatments (if that's what you mean) that you could use to smooth the response and room modes. Corner traps, bookcases, window treatments, the list goes on. Some people even treat the ceiling. Rich Greene's (acknowledged as the resident bass guru) recent thread on room modes was absolutely facinating and I'd recommend you read it. Shoot, I had to read it a few times :)

I like really fast subs because I'm more into music that HT impact. Even then, I turn the thing off when listening to 2 channel. DefTech makes great subs and a lot of guys here love the servo Paradigms and Velodynes. Geoffcin says his Velo's are quick enough to keep up with his Maggies, and that's saying something. Rel, Hsu & SVS are also highly recommended. Like anything else, it'll really be up to what you like and more importantly which one blends as seemlessly as possibly with your mains.

Sounds like a nice place you're constructing. I'd take advantage of the opportunity and wire everything through the walls (stay away from the electrical wires tho) and use terminal plates like Niles. I did and it makes the install sooo much cleaner.

[koop]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
If you are willing to do DIY, you could make a really awesome sub. You don't even have to make your own box. Here's an idea that works well.

This woofer http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...ID=120479&DID=7

In this box.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...t_ID=9385&DID=7

and this amp

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7

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I love to do things myself which makes this an attractive option for me but I am wondering if there are any disadvantages here. Are the components of the same qualilty as the "big" names? Thus the savings are in the assembly? Can I then build the box, or 1/16" miscut could really make a difference? I am inquiring in general rather than on the specific links provided above. I understand the subjuctivity of sound (like almost everything else) but sometimes things are best left to professionals in professional environments. Agree of disagree??????

[kfalls]

I've had several different models of Klipsch' over the years, but never any with "foam" surrounds. The surrounds on mine have always been rubber, on woofers and passives. I have seen cracks in the rubber of some (bought used), but nothing that I would consider rot. I've owned the KG4s (one of my all-time favorites), KG2s, RS-3s, a KV-3, KLF-C7, SW-8 and KSP1.2s.
I also disagree with those who say "all Klipsch' sounding brite". To me the earlier models (Heritage, Classic) are very well balance and are very involving with classical music. My bedroom home theater includes most of the speakers above (not the KG2s or the 1.2s) and are driven by a Yamaha RX-V2095 and sound great. My living room theater includes Legacy Focus, Silver Screen center and T&A P-30 surrounds driven by a Denon AVR-3300 and Yamaha M-65 (bi-amped woofers on the Focus) which is also an excellent sounding system at a considerably higher cost and many like the Klipsch/Yamaha system as well, if not better than the Legacy/Denon system.
I can fully recommend the Yamaha/Klipsch system with either the KG4s or the Fortes. Your RX-V3300 is very similar to my RX-V2095 in power and features. I recommend the KV3 as a better match for the center. I tried the KLF-C7 thinking the 8" woofers would be a better match for the 8" woofers in the KG4s, but I thought it didn't mesh as well and sounded as though the dialogue was going over your head no matter how much it was tilted toward the listening position.

[This Guy]

No 1/16" of a miscut will not make an audible difference, hell a 1" miscut won't make a difference in a sealed sub. With good subs you could make the box (sealed) a cubic foot too big and all that will result in is slightly less power handling, but will go lower. Many of these drivers from partsexpress are actually used in many high end speakers. Take a look at Swan speakers, they use "Hi Vi" speakers form partsxpress. If you dont count the crossover or cabinet cost, the speakers would cost $200 for the pair, and they're selling them for $800. For sub's, there's no doubt you get the most for your money with DIY, sealed subs are pretty easy to design compared to a regular two or three way speaker, ported subs tend to be a bit harder because of port chuffing that may occur. As long as you can make an air tight box out of mdf, along with some internal bracing and a little stuffing, you can make an awesome sub that would ahve cost much more if it were sold by one of these big name brands, and trust me the quality is there.

-Joey

[Debbi]

....appears noone on the same page here answering the question asked....ill go out on a limb and state the Klipsch would be fine with Yamaha, assuming choice of speakers adequate for room size...we really need to do better here when someone asks a specific question....somehow we ended up with subwoofer discussion and brands not considered by person posing the question.

[RGA]

It is fairly important to know which B&W 600 series we're talking about. The 600 Series 2 or series are fantastic and so too are there center channels - including the CC6 - though it's the entry level and i would prefer the LCR 60 or the LCR 600 or even try the CDM series centers.

The recommendation for the CC6 is as follows however something most dealers or casual passer byers wouldn't likely notice or think to do which does make it a pain in the ass no doubt =

"The CC6 S2 centre is the only speaker in this system finished in black ash. You should also avoid sending deep bass to it. Use your amplifier/processor's setup parameters to route bass away from the centre channel."

Overall the center speaker scored well in the listening sessions conducted by Home Cinema Choice magazine - a lot better than most similarly priced competitors. The entire package of 600 series received a best buy which would not happen if the center was so terrible.

The full review of B&W 600:Second bite for Super S-series
Adam Rayner considers B&W's first mid-priced S2 system and wonders if it's a gift from the gods: BEST BUY Home Cinema Choice Magazine

"It's fair to suggest that a new set of B&W speakers is definitely worth a listen. Of course for regular HCC readers, some elements of this new kit might not seem all that new. For example, the CC6 centre enclosure has been inside my home at least three times before. These boxes all apparently form part of a new series, the S2. So is this really the second coming for these B&Ws?

Well, they certainly inspired awe in me. Time and again I came back to them during the audition period, playing everything from Ronin to Shakespeare In Love on DVD. I also went to the recent hi-fi show in Hammersmith and bought the Mavericks on DTS CD - I danced the night away. These may be B&W's middle priced product, but they are marvellous.

Firstly, these are supremely naturalistic sounding boxes. As the ear gets used to higher and higher average SPLs (Sound Pressure Levels), B&W speakers excel at conning you into thinking they are not as loud as they really are. It has to do with realistic reproduction without compression. The temptation is to turn up the volume - because what you hear is detail not loudness. This system sings with a synergy that just ignites your happy gland. The power and control is tremendously impressive at enormous scale and depth.

The rear speakers are capable of fabulous power and have wonderful control. The left and rights fronts are not particularly huge, but they too can reach way down to deliver a convincing bass extension when asked. The centre speaker is also a bit of a beast, with delicious impact. And all of it with excellent imaging - just as the director intended.

SUPERSONIC SUB
The system is underpinned by the B&W ASW1000. B&W has surpassed itself with this oh-so-simple subwoofer. It drops to a very low point for a ported wobbler and shifts air in great stomach-churning bouts. You have to set it with care though, especially given the excesses of DTS bass encoding.

Beginning with the boom, the ASW1000 subwoofer is not recommended exclusively for singular use. In the manual - an item which should be used by other makers as an example of how these things ought to be printed - eight different hook-ups are explained. These encourage the use of two ASW1000s. Perhaps you should budget for two from the outset, or plan ahead for an additional sub when funds allow.

Of course, you can still use one sub to get up and running. The perfectly ordinary oblong enclosure has a nice cloth grille over a well-built driver. There's 120W of power onboard and the box stands on conical feet that dig rather seriously into the carpet at each corner. The sub's port loads to the floor via a wide-mouthed flare with golf ball like bumps upon its face in increasing density as you get closer to the throat of the port. B&W call this a Flowport. That this allows rapid breathing of pressure waves in and out of the box is undeniable. Tragic but true, my two reference JBL HT1A subwoofers are just not so good in the face of this sub-sweetheart.

FRONTING IT OUT
The front left/right DM603 speakers arrive with evilly sharp spikes for ground-coupling and, interestingly, three porting options. What's that you say? Three porting options? Long since provided in other markets with products like Stillwater designs' Bass Stations, B&W offer you a rear ported tower that can go deep enough for main use without a sub. Should your room suffer from overblown bass as a result, you can stuff supplied foam mesh or plugs into the ports.

For the record, I left them unbunged throughout the audition. On the flanks of the huge Triskom TK100 mega console that all my reference kit lives in, the top row of tweeters and Kevlar coned mids were nicely lined up with those of the CC6 S2 centre enclosure atop my resident Sony KV-S28WS2U widescreen television.

The CC6 S2 centre is the only speaker in this system finished in black ash. You should also avoid sending deep bass to it. Use your amplifier/processor's setup parameters to route bass away from the centre channel.

Apparently derived from R&D done for the big old Nautilus speakers, the high-frequency units in this S2 range are loaded with tapered tubes you can't see but which do improve the performance. This speaker series doesn't go as far as the super-end surroundless Kevlar mids on the brand's top models, but does get a funky bullet-shaped dust cap. This pumps in and out with the cone, as against the bullet-shaped dispersion modifiers used on the more expensive ones.

OUT-OF-THIS-WORLD SOUND
Overall, this really is a wonderful system. It has limitations imposed only by the physical conventions of our world, so that means a less-than-coffin-sized centre and likewise sensibly sized rears. However, I can tell you that five of the front left/right 603s and a video projection system would fill a 200-seater theatre with ease. I loved them so much it was a worse wrench than usual to say goodbye...

Adam Rayner, Home Cinema Choice, January 2000

FOCUS
Obviously conceived as one cohesive whole, these B&Ws work in synergy with each other to create a thunderous, accurate soundstage with tremendous presence, dynamics and enormous low-end frequency extension. A treat for enthusiasts
[out of five]
Front * * * * *
Centre * * * *
Rears * * * *
Bass * * * * *
Overall * * * * *
Model :B&W S2
Approximate street price : £2,200
Purchased separately : B&W DM 603 S2 left and right £550; B&W CC6 S2 centre channel £200 (each); B&W DM 602 S2 surrounds £300 (pair); B&W ASW1000 subwoofer £500
Frequency response (+/- 3dB) : B&W DM 603 S2 left and right 48Hz-20kHz; B&W CC6 S2 centre channel 78Hz-20kHz; B&W DM 602 S2 surrounds 52Hz to 20kHz; ASW1000 subwoofer 25Hz-140Hz
Power handling : B&W DM 603 S2 left and right 25-150W; B&W CC6 S2 centre channel 25-120W; B&W DM 602 S2 surrounds 25-120W; ASW1000 subwoofer 120W from onboard amplifier
Dimensions/Weight : B&W DM 603 S2 left and right 236(w) x 850(h) x 306(d)mm & 19Kg; B&W CC6 S2 centre channel 450(w) x 151(h) x 275(d)mm & 6.3Kg; B&W DM 602 S2 surrounds 236(w) x 490(h) x 306(d)mm & 9.8Kg; ASW1000 subwoofer 540(w) x 460(h) x 500(d)mm & 30Kg
01903 524801

[RGA]

Another review - this of the original CC6 by Secrets of Home Theater and Hi Fi magazine.

"Sound wise, the B&Ws are quite natural, with no boominess and very little chestiness (that irritating sound that destroys female vocals). In fact, the CC6 was one of the most natural sounding center channel speakers we have had the pleasure to test. Often, a center channel speaker requires a little EQ in the 125 Hz range (lower it by as much as 8 dB) to get rid of the problem. Perhaps it is due to sound bouncing off the face of the TV (we test them on top of the monitor, front of speaker flush with front of monitor), or the top of the TV at the sides of the center channel speaker. In any case, the CC6 did not need any EQ to get a very nice tonality, even though the frequency response test showed a bump in the 125 Hz - 160 Hz range. Front to back tonality was well balanced, and of course, because the 603s are full range, there was a bit of expected tonality imbalance with the CC6. The only way to get complete balance across the front, is to use identical LCR speakers." http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_3_2/v3n2c.html

[Woochifer]

It is fairly important to know which B&W 600 series we're talking about. The 600 Series 2 or series are fantastic and so too are there center channels - including the CC6 - though it's the entry level and i would prefer the LCR 60 or the LCR 600 or even try the CDM series centers.

The recommendation for the CC6 is as follows however something most dealers or casual passer byers wouldn't likely notice or think to do which does make it a pain in the ass no doubt =

Good gawd, who are you kidding here? Do you even bother to read a thread before going into auto pilot trying to snuff out any hint of dissent regarding B&W? I stated early on, that the speakers in question are likely to be either in the S1 or S2 series because the CC6 was only made at that time. It's a pretty bold statement to say that "there [sp] center channels - including the CC6" are fantastic given that you've previously stated that you'd never heard those models before.

Well, if that model is so great, why the hell did B&W DISCONTINUE it when they went to the S3 series? Again, the CC6 uses a different set of drivers and produces a notably different timbre than the other 600 S2 series models that I tried out, which IMO makes them a weak link in that series. With the S3 series, B&W is now using the same type and caliber of drivers on their center speakers that they put into their mains. Obviously, somebody over at B&W felt that an improvement over the CC6 was needed.

BTW, the LCR60 and LCR600 that you mention are matched to the S3 series, so your statement that you would prefer them or the CDMs with a set of S2 600 series models is nothing more than speculation on your part, unless you've actually heard them together. The other center speaker for the S2 series was the LCR6, which did use comparable drivers to the other 600 series models. If the discussion was about that model, I would not have chimed in as directly as I did, given that I never got to audition that particular model. Maybe you should try that approach.

And for someone who's ranted several times on this board about how nobody should trust reviewers and how they're mostly amateurish shills who never say anything negative (and therefore truthful), it's sure high minded and principled of you to cite a review that just happened to fill your informational gap. (and even there, the reviews are not exactly convincing, given that they did not mention anything conclusive about timbre matching with the mains, which is really all that you should ever listen for in a center speaker irregardless of how good it sounds by itself) Is this somehow proof that I'm "incorrect" with what I heard with my own two ears? Or by digging through your magazines all the way back to 2000, are you just doing damage control? You seem to have this thing about B&W in that if anyone dares to criticize them, then B&W suddenly can do no wrong in your view, even if you yourself nitpick on them in other threads. What arrogance and hypocrisy.

[RGA]

Yes I don't necessarily trust reviews but I should trust the word of people on the internet? I'm not saying you didn't hear what you heard - nor was my post directly for you...but the original poster may have wanted to see an alternate opinion of the CC6 within the context of the surround sound system it was designed for. At no time did I read this fatal flaw that this was a truly terrible integration and was a totally inept center channel - and they are not afraid to give negative reviews...B&W does not win too many awards from that Magazine.

I am speculating that a person can TRY a center from the CDM line or a newer model.

THE FACT is a perfect match REQUIRES the EXACT same speaker. The fact that a woofer is the same size is totally ridiculous...the BOX has 20 times the effect on a speaker's sound than a driver's SIZE has. The same tweeter yes, to a FAR lesser degree the woofer material follows, and then size. It would make more sense to get another 602S2 and andgle it down...which still won't be perfect since the tweeters need to be at the same height...one reason the TOtem dreamcatcher system(and pricey) with a rear projection was totally abysmal - the center is too high - the speakers need ot be too far apart and the sound is off...they match...exact same issue I heard at sound and vision with the Paradigm Studio 100V3 matching center and ridiculous boomy sub(not the sub but the set-up).

Plasma makes sense you can hang it above the center speaker which means you can have three identical speakers across the front....now that is the biggest advantage I perceive with those tvs.

[46minaudio]

Another review - this of the original CC6 by Secrets of Home Theater and Hi Fi magazine.

"Sound wise, the B&Ws are quite natural, with no boominess and very little chestiness (that irritating sound that destroys female vocals). In fact, the CC6 was one of the most natural sounding center channel speakers we have had the pleasure to test. Often, a center channel speaker requires a little EQ in the 125 Hz range (lower it by as much as 8 dB) to get rid of the problem. Perhaps it is due to sound bouncing off the face of the TV (we test them on top of the monitor, front of speaker flush with front of monitor), or the top of the TV at the sides of the center channel speaker. In any case, the CC6 did not need any EQ to get a very nice tonality, even though the frequency response test showed a bump in the 125 Hz - 160 Hz range. Front to back tonality was well balanced, and of course, because the 603s are full range, there was a bit of expected tonality imbalance with the CC6. The only way to get complete balance across the front, is to use identical LCR speakers." http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_3_2/v3n2c.html

Secrets also reviewed the Paradigm Titan.Here is a quote"How do they make such an inexpensive speaker sound so good?"..Its good to know RGA aproves ....

[RGA]

Secrets also reviewed the Paradigm Titan.Here is a quote"How do they make such an inexpensive speaker sound so good?"..Its good to know RGA aproves ....

It amazes me that people can so miss the point of my post.

[Woochifer]

Yes I don't necessarily trust reviews but I should trust the word of people on the internet?

Then why the hell should anybody trust your opinion on this or any other topic?


I'm not saying you didn't hear what you heard - nor was my post directly for you...but the original poster may have wanted to see an alternate opinion of the CC6 within the context of the surround sound system it was designed for. At no time did I read this fatal flaw that this was a truly terrible integration and was a totally inept center channel - and they are not afraid to give negative reviews...B&W does not win too many awards from that Magazine.

Well, if all that you were trying to do was recommend an alternative opinion, then I would not be on your case. Unfortunately, you tried the backdoor approach of dismissing and trivializing my conclusion and speculating on the reasons why my opinion is "incorrect" and should be disregarded. This coming from someone who hasn't even listened to the speaker model in question. And your sources of back up are the very reviews that you've devoted plenty of space to attacking in the past.

It would be like me saying that your attacks on the Paradigm Monitor series are BS, speculating on reasons why you have no idea what you're talking, and then citing third party reviews to back up my case even though I'd never heard those speakers first hand before. I'm sure that approach would go over very well with you. Oh, and just so you know, the Monitor 5 was the Absolute Sound's Best Buy in its price category. I mean, a speaker that they recommend could not possibly be as terrible as you claim it is, right?


I am speculating that a person can TRY a center from the CDM line or a newer model.

You are speculating, but that's something that was already evident before you just now admitted it.


THE FACT is a perfect match REQUIRES the EXACT same speaker. The fact that a woofer is the same size is totally ridiculous...the BOX has 20 times the effect on a speaker's sound than a driver's SIZE has. The same tweeter yes, to a FAR lesser degree the woofer material follows, and then size. It would make more sense to get another 602S2 and andgle it down...which still won't be perfect since the tweeters need to be at the same height...one reason the TOtem dreamcatcher system(and pricey) with a rear projection was totally abysmal - the center is too high - the speakers need ot be too far apart and the sound is off...they match...exact same issue I heard at sound and vision with the Paradigm Studio 100V3 matching center and ridiculous boomy sub(not the sub but the set-up).

How convenient of you to now go changing the subject. And you're going about this as if you have first hand experience designing and building speakers. How do you know that the box has "20 times the effect on a speaker's sound than a driver's SIZE has"; is this something that you quantified and verified yourself, or is just more speculation and BS on your part? What is 20 times the effect versus 10 times the effect or 100 times the effect?

At what time did I ever talk about a "perfect match"? Let's review before you start bringing other unrelated topics into the discussion:

-- The original poster was talking about a B&W speaker package in the classifieds that featured the DM603 and the CC6, NOT the LCR60, NOT the LCR600, NOT the CDM, and NOT a downangled DM602.

-- My response was that the two models did not voice match one another very well because I had heard them together before and did not feel that the CC6 was an adequate match. THAT'S what I was responding to.

PLEASE address the topic at hand, rather than try to cover your tail by spinning the subject onto irrelevant tangents and throwing stuff off the perverbial dung heep that you always like to talk about until something sticks. This topic has nothing to do with the Totem or Paradigm systems that you've apparently heard for yourself, so I have no idea why you're bringing those into the discussion other than you just had to say something about something.

If you actually read my posts, I make note of the sound on the CC6 being an inadequate match. (And again, this is my OPINION, so how can you call it INCORRECT?) The size of the driver is an ancillary but contributory issue, and the drivers used on that model are not just different sized but a completely different design used nowhere else in the B&W lineup (except in those DS6 dipole surround speakers, which were also not so good in my listenings). It is true that the best performance is achieved with three identical speakers up front, but that wasn't part of the topic at hand either. Nice try.

[RGA]

Starting at the review stage it is you and 46min that like to support rags and gee wiz they're so right they should also diss something you hate they don't. The point is more to 46 min as to WHY I don't go by reviews.

Wooch made an assumption that I haven't heard the CC6...why do you get the impression I never heard the CC6. This was one of the very first sessions I have ever had with a surround system. The LCR60 is better as is the LCR 600 the BUYER gets to decide which way he/she wants to go. The CC6 is the worst of them but it's also the cheapest - and I don't even think it's even being made anymore. I kept calling the CC6 the LCR 6 however. Nice naming by B&W - not.

The reviews fall all over themselves loving this set-up which you didn't care for...perhaps that might give a clue to the fact that reviews should not be assumed correct...even if they are being HONEST it's still their opinion - which quite obviously YOU feel very strong in opposition to. GOOD.

This is the underlying point. Take 46min he hates the CDM 1NT and thinks the 20V2 is a VASTLY superior speaker from "top to bottom." I disagree with that assessment but it is entirely valid. But we go back to reviews and see the CDM 1NT a Stereophile Class B product and the Studio 20 isn't. Does that mean he's WRONG. No because ONE reviewer happened to like the bottle of Red wine B&W sent over to the reviewer instead of the White Paradigm sent.

As for TAS and any review they're entitled to their view of the speaker...reviewing something and owning it long term are two different things. Lots of stuff in a given price range I would give a nice rating too...certainly I would never want to live with the speaker because it would grate on my nerves.

And the ridculousness should be seen in the fact that they rate 12 speakers or so a class A or B that sound NOTHING remotely alike. That makes little sense...but they can tack on "if you like this type of sound then you'll love this speaker." Well if you don't you may hate it - but that bit's left off.

How bout we let the poster listen and see if he hears this lack of timbral accuracy...after all not everyone hears the annoying mess I hear with the Paradigm Monitor 5 and other Paradigms...then again some do.

the box has more impaact on sound than a driver's size. end of story mate it does. The box design and cabinetry factors more in the B&W sound than whether they go polypropolyne or kevlar for their 61/2 inch woofer. Kevlar helps the marketing and does have an impact but a smaller one. Going to a smaller box center channel right away influences the sound of the speaker...to then use the SAME size drivers in a smaller box makes less sense - I should EXPECT them to compensate the driver size as well - or the technology in the crossover and other parts etc. A match is the exact same speaker or it doesn't match PERIOD. The CC6 doesn't match yes, neither does the matching top of the line Nautilus with their Nautilus...perhaps why Skywalker uses ALL N802's all the way around...that matches.

My audition - though short with the 100 V3 matching humongous center was as unimpressive as usual with the center on top of a massive 50+ inch widescreen tv... the sound is not cohesive - it's off kilter. SO they crank the sub to make you physically ill to divert your attention from the rest(though the depth and SPL of the Paradigm Sub is stunning considering a big room). An over $8,000 front end with Anthem's AVM 20 and power amps. If this was supposed to be competantly handled surround integration then I'll avoid looking for a center channel because the incompetant ones must be truly appalling.

[Woochifer]

Wooch made an assumption that I haven't heard the CC6...why do you get the impression I never heard the CC6. This was one of the very first sessions I have ever had with a surround system. The LCR60 is better as is the LCR 600 the BUYER gets to decide which way he/she wants to go. The CC6 is the worst of them but it's also the cheapest - and I don't even think it's even being made anymore. I kept calling the CC6 the LCR 6 however. Nice naming by B&W - not.

Are you for real, or just waking up and realizing that you're way late to the party? I stated that the CC6 was discontinued three responses ago and asked you why B&W would bother to quit making that center speaker model if it was as "fantastic" as you said it was. I guess that answers my question on whether or not you even bothered to read the thread before going into cut and paste mode.

In past discussions on center speakers, you have mentioned the LCR6, which is why I assumed that you had not listened to the CC6. But, why are you suddenly so sure about which center speaker you heard now that I'm taking you to task for stuff that you said about my listenings? And why not just mention that you thought that they were a decent voice match for the 600 series and leave it at that, without resorting to the condescending dismissals of my opinion on the CC6.


The reviews fall all over themselves loving this set-up which you didn't care for...perhaps that might give a clue to the fact that reviews should not be assumed correct...even if they are being HONEST it's still their opinion - which quite obviously YOU feel very strong in opposition to. GOOD.

It's all well and good and magnanimous of you to say all this now, but unfortunately your earlier statements were a helluva lot less tolerant of disagreement. You were oh so sure that my opinion was factually incorrect and I was the only person who could've possibly felt the way that I did about the speaker in question. That's what I'm taking you to task with on this thread, and all of the subsequent spinning and sidetracking and semi-sincere backtracking and weasel words are just irrelevancies designed to sidetrack from the topic at hand.


This is the underlying point. Take 46min he hates the CDM 1NT and thinks the 20V2 is a VASTLY superior speaker from "top to bottom." I disagree with that assessment but it is entirely valid. But we go back to reviews and see the CDM 1NT a Stereophile Class B product and the Studio 20 isn't. Does that mean he's WRONG. No because ONE reviewer happened to like the bottle of Red wine B&W sent over to the reviewer instead of the White Paradigm sent.

As for TAS and any review they're entitled to their view of the speaker...reviewing something and owning it long term are two different things. Lots of stuff in a given price range I would give a nice rating too...certainly I would never want to live with the speaker because it would grate on my nerves.

And the ridculousness should be seen in the fact that they rate 12 speakers or so a class A or B that sound NOTHING remotely alike. That makes little sense...but they can tack on "if you like this type of sound then you'll love this speaker." Well if you don't you may hate it - but that bit's left off.

How bout we let the poster listen and see if he hears this lack of timbral accuracy...after all not everyone hears the annoying mess I hear with the Paradigm Monitor 5 and other Paradigms...then again some do.

the box has more impaact on sound than a driver's size. end of story mate it does. The box design and cabinetry factors more in the B&W sound than whether they go polypropolyne or kevlar for their 61/2 inch woofer. Kevlar helps the marketing and does have an impact but a smaller one. Going to a smaller box center channel right away influences the sound of the speaker...to then use the SAME size drivers in a smaller box makes less sense - I should EXPECT them to compensate the driver size as well - or the technology in the crossover and other parts etc. A match is the exact same speaker or it doesn't match PERIOD. The CC6 doesn't match yes, neither does the matching top of the line Nautilus with their Nautilus...perhaps why Skywalker uses ALL N802's all the way around...that matches.

My audition - though short with the 100 V3 matching humongous center was as unimpressive as usual with the center on top of a massive 50+ inch widescreen tv... the sound is not cohesive - it's off kilter. SO they crank the sub to make you physically ill to divert your attention from the rest(though the depth and SPL of the Paradigm Sub is stunning considering a big room). An over $8,000 front end with Anthem's AVM 20 and power amps. If this was supposed to be competantly handled surround integration then I'll avoid looking for a center channel because the incompetant ones must be truly appalling.

Case in point. A bunch of verbiage that in the end doesn't address what I brought up, and does not make your case on why you stated earlier that my listening was somehow less than valid. You can bring all the irrelevancies and detailed out accounts of unrelated listening sessions that you want, and that still doesn't get at why you think the CC6 is a "fantastic" center speaker and why my opinion of that speaker is "incorrect" and should be dismissed.

And stop pretending that you're a speaker designer, because it's obvious that you're not. My comments were limited to my opinion that the CC6 did not adequately voice match the 600 series main speakers that it was paired up with. This is based on a first hand listening. If you disagree, fine. A simple response on why they DO voice match would have sufficed, and it's something that you have yet to provide. Instead, it's just tired soapbox material that veers way off topic. The discussion of the driver configuration is secondary to the voice matching. Your keying on that minor point and turning it into the anchor point of your response doesn't address my very simple point about a speaker that I listened to. I agree with you on using three identical speakers up front, but in case you failed to actually read my last response, I already agreed with you and said that was off-topic and an unnecessary tangent. And I already said that with a center speaker it's not about a perfect match, but an adequate match, and the CC6 IMO fails to live up to that standard. How hard is it to stay on topic and read before posting?

[46minaudio]

Starting at the review stage it is you and 46min that like to support rags and gee wiz they're so right they should also diss something you hate they don't. The point is more to 46 min as to WHY I don't go by reviews.

I only point out reviews (pro and users) to show there are different oppinions than your golden ear so called facts..


This is the underlying point. Take 46min he hates the CDM 1NT and thinks the 20V2 is a VASTLY superior speaker from "top to bottom."

Now Now Now RGA there you go again posting things that are just untrue..The word I used was "prefered". And the word hate as in the "CDM 1nt" was never posted.This just goes to show you cannot be trusted...The fact is I very much liked the 7nt and 1nt and It came down to the 100v2 /20v2 combo and the 7nt/1nt combo...


I disagree with that assessment
I really have no problem with this but the you called me"tone deaf" as if your ear was somehow better than mine...This is one reason why I almost never recomend speakers..Try posting facts .Why is it you feel your ears cannot be wrong?

[topspeed]

Woochifer's posts: 463
RGA's posts: 457

How many of these nearly 500 posts have you guys used to go at each other? As an outside observer, it appears you two are really reading more into the posts than there is. Relax, it's a HOBBY, remember?

[mario ferrari]

Please , someone out there, would help me to send me the copy of the manual of B&W speaker subwoofer ASW1000. My email is matuelo1@yahoo.com. I really appreciate if you help me. Mario

[MikeyBC]

Wow...that's digging pretty deep !