HDMI versus coaxial or optical for digital sound - what's better?

[gman086]

As you may have read in my other thread, I'm trying to figure out where to go with my next A/V system. The deciding factor will be whether or not HDMI is the way to go. Does anyone have experience comparing the sound of an HDMI hookup versus say, optical or coaxial to a A/V receiver for digital sound (especially cd's)? And I've heard, from reliable sources, that component video hookups can look as good or better than HDMI. That has not been what I've seen personally using Monster M1000 audiophile HDMI compared to component video - the HDMI was clearly better (another bad pun!) for video in my system. So it's back to audio and I don't really want to run out and buy a HDMI compatible receiver just to see if the audio is any better or not. SO... if anyone has done comparisons I'm all ears!

Thank you!

G

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

As you may have read in my other thread, I'm trying to figure out where to go with my next A/V system. The deciding factor will be whether or not HDMI is the way to go. Does anyone have experience comparing the sound of an HDMI hookup versus say, optical or coaxial to a A/V receiver for digital sound (especially cd's)? And I've heard, from reliable sources, that component video hookups can look as good or better than HDMI. That has not been what I've seen personally using Monster M1000 audiophile HDMI compared to component video - the HDMI was clearly better (another bad pun!) for video in my system. So it's back to audio and I don't really want to run out and buy a HDMI compatible receiver just to see if the audio is any better or not. SO... if anyone has done comparisons I'm all ears!

Thank you!

G

Consider what the audio has to go through when coming through component cables. The D/A is first done in the player and sent through the component cable to the receiver. Then A/D conversion has to take place so bass management, delay, and level processing can happen(all this is done using DSP's), then converted back to analog to your receivers amps. Two conversion processes is not good for the audio, and you definately increased the chance of conversion errors or dropped bits.

With HDMI the audio remains digital throughout the entire chain until you get to the receivers D/A converters, which then convert the audio to analog to your amps. Cleaner handling of the signal, far less chance of errors or dropped bits.

Using coaxial or optical confines you to redbook standard CD. HDMI takes it to the next level in terms of high resolution audio.

HDMI is the way to go, preferrably 1.3 to ensure future compatibility with high definition media.

[gman086]

Consider what the audio has to go through when coming through component cables. The D/A is first done in the player and sent through the component cable to the receiver. Then A/D conversion has to take place so bass management, delay, and level processing can happen(all this is done using DSP's), then converted back to analog to your receivers amps. Two conversion processes is not good for the audio, and you definately increased the chance of conversion errors or dropped bits.

With HDMI the audio remains digital throughout the entire chain until you get to the receivers D/A converters, which then convert the audio to analog to your amps. Cleaner handling of the signal, far less chance of errors or dropped bits.

Using coaxial or optical confines you to redbook standard CD. HDMI takes it to the next level in terms of high resolution audio.

HDMI is the way to go, preferrably 1.3 to ensure future compatibility with high definition media.

Wow! Thanks for the response Terrence, that helps me understand it all now. Do you have a preference for a brand of HDMI cable? I've tried a few and was impressed (for the video anyway) with Monster's M1000 version (their best) which is said to exceed 1.3 HDMI. Also I can get an SR8001 Marantz receiver for about half the price of the newly released 8002 BUT the 8001 only has HDMI version 1.2 while the 8002 has version 1.3. Is it that critical? My current HDTV won't support it anyway (720p) but down the road...? I'm pretty much limited to the Marantz for a decent receiver because I don't have much depth space and their chassis aren't as deep as comparable units for similar power. Do you know of any others? Sorry for all the questions but I appreciate your knowledge.

Thanks again!

G

[musicman1999]

[QUOTE=Sir Terrence the Terrible]Consider what the audio has to go through when coming through component cables. The D/A is first done in the player and sent through the component cable to the receiver. Then A/D conversion has to take place so bass management, delay, and level processing can happen(all this is done using DSP's), then converted back to analog to your receivers amps. Two conversion processes is not good for the audio, and you definately increased the chance of conversion errors or dropped bits.

That is only true if you do not use a direct mode for cd playback.If you use direct mode then the player does the d/a conversion then analog all the way to the amp.

bill

[L.J.]

Wow! Thanks for the response Terrence, that helps me understand it all now. Do you have a preference for a brand of HDMI cable? I've tried a few and was impressed (for the video anyway) with Monster's M1000 version (their best) which is said to exceed 1.3 HDMI. Also I can get an SR8001 Marantz receiver for about half the price of the newly released 8002 BUT the 8001 only has HDMI version 1.2 while the 8002 has version 1.3. Is it that critical? My current HDTV won't support it anyway (720p) but down the road...? I'm pretty much limited to the Marantz for a decent receiver because I don't have much depth space and their chassis aren't as deep as comparable units for similar power. Do you know of any others? Sorry for all the questions but I appreciate your knowledge.

Thanks again!

G

For half the price, I would go with the 8001. I just picked the Yamaha 2700 which is HDMI 1.2, instead on going with the 3800 HDMI 1.3 model. $800 diff for almost identical units.

[gman086]

That is only true if you do not use a direct mode for cd playback.If you use direct mode then the player does the d/a conversion then analog all the way to the amp.

bill

I think my new DVD player (Marantz DV-7001) has automatic switching based on what interconnects are hooked up? Or do you select how the direct mode operates? I don't even know if it's possible but I'm guessing so since it's one of their higher end universal players and does have an HDMI (version 1.2) output.

Another question I have is do I need HDMI version 1.3 input for the receiver to play the sound on HD DVD's or Bluray players or is 1.2 fine for audio on both those formats? I'd eventually like to get one of those and don't want my receiver to have limitations there since I usually keep my components until they fail. I'm not worried about the video since I can just do a direct line to the HDTV but the sound and 7.1 separation/decoding is what concerns me.

Thanks!

G

[musicman1999]

The bluray question is a little more complicated. I don't have my bluray player yet,but i intend to use the 5.1 analog outs for the new sound formats.I have never seen that Marantz player only heard good things so i can't answer that question.


bill

[Mr Peabody]

Well another way to go is to use 7.1 analog ins/outs and avoid HDMI all together. There should only be one conversion this way and that is in your Marantz universal player.

And, if conversions are a big deal, why put your video through another component that surely will carry some kind of video conversion up or down. If it upsamples to 1080p, then your TV will down sample to it's native resolution, which you said might be 720p. It's really best to feed your TV the video signal direct from the source and let the conversion be done by the TV.

Sir T, why do you say coax or optical confines one to redbook? Playing Blu-ray via optical yields much better sound than from DVD because the signal is not compressed. It is still just the core DD/DTS where the analog out would provide the HD audio formats. Maybe I answered my own question. I still wonder if it's a limitation of the coax/optical or if it's simply a matter of they don't have a copy guard protection.

I have to check the Dolby website to see if anything has changed but I am not recommending HDMI to anyone until I'm sure it will work. Last I read no one was sure the disc encoding would allow the digital bit stream to bypass the disc players internal DAC. This would make all this HDMI 1.whatever pointless. It will also be interesting to see if the predicted compatibility issues between equipment with HDMI arise.

Also, last I read 1.3 is pointless until equipment comes on the market that has features necessary for 1.3 and who knows when that will be.

HDMI must be backed by the Mafia, it's been one big screwing of consumers since it hit the market.

[L.J.]

More info, to go along with Mr Peabody's comments on HDMI

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Joshua_Zyber/High-Def_FAQ/High-Def_FAQ:_Is_HDMI_1.3_Really_Necessary/853

http://www.dolby.com/consumer/technology/trueHD/AVRs/trueHD_avrs_1.html

[gman086]

Excellent! Thanks for the replies and let's keep the discussion going. Has anyone critically listened to both connections? Results? I'd really hate to hook up 8 cables for 7.1 surround from my universal player to receiver if HDMI can do it (and do it as well or better) with a single cable! Also my HDTV has only one HDMI input so I have to switch thru the receiver regardless. I went with the less expensive Marantz SR-8001 with the HDMI ver. 1.2 since nothing can make use of version 1.3 yet anyway and I saved more than $800 compared to the new SR-8002 with the 1.3.

Here is more good info I found on HDMI:
http://www.hdmi.org/learningcenter/faq.aspx

Have a GREAT day!

G

[musicman1999]

How many HDMI sources do you have? Bear in mind that when you are comparing connections you are also comparing DACs.


bill

[gman086]

How many HDMI sources do you have? Bear in mind that when you are comparing connections you are also comparing DACs.


bill

Just two - one from the Comcast cable box and one from the Marantz DV-7001 universal player. They will feed into the Marantz SR-8001 I just bought and then into the one HDMI input on the monitor. I'm guessing (since they're Marantz's higher end) the DAC's will be up to the task? The feed from the cable box gets converted to digital with the DAC in the box, right? So that feed goes straight digital thru HDMI to the receiver right? And I'm guessing the same if I tell the 7001 do direct feed digital (no DAC) with HDMI (auto switches as I understand it)? So the critical DAC will be in the receiver and I shouldn't have to go thru a bunch of D/A conversions, just one for CD or DVD playback, correct? In "thoery" it should provide the purest possible sound. Looking forward to hearing how it sounds!

Best,

G

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, why do you say coax or optical confines one to redbook? Playing Blu-ray via optical yields much better sound than from DVD because the signal is not compressed. It is still just the core DD/DTS where the analog out would provide the HD audio formats. Maybe I answered my own question. I still wonder if it's a limitation of the coax/optical or if it's simply a matter of they don't have a copy guard protection.



Mr P.

Now that I understand the direction the OP is going with this question I can answer that.

The optical and coaxial outputs only core Dts at 1.5mpbs, DD at 640kpbs and two channel PCM. Your limited to the lossy formats through this pipeline. And you are right, there is no copy protection on them.

Going through HDMI(1.3a) you can get 8 channel uncompressed PCM, Dts HD master audio lossless, Dts HD, Dolby TrueHD, DD+, SACD, and DVD-A. If the player has onboard decoding of these formats, and can convert it to PCM, then all that is needed is a 1.1 connection. However Dts HD Master audio requires a 1.3a connection.

[musicman1999]

Just two - one from the Comcast cable box and one from the Marantz DV-7001 universal player. They will feed into the Marantz SR-8001 I just bought and then into the one HDMI input on the monitor. I'm guessing (since they're Marantz's higher end) the DAC's will be up to the task? The feed from the cable box gets converted to digital with the DAC in the box, right? So that feed goes straight digital thru HDMI to the receiver right? And I'm guessing the same if I tell the 7001 do direct feed digital (no DAC) with HDMI (auto switches as I understand it)? So the critical DAC will be in the receiver and I shouldn't have to go thru a bunch of D/A conversions, just one for CD or DVD playback, correct? In "thoery" it should provide the purest possible sound. Looking forward to hearing how it sounds!

Best,

G

You should still try cd playback both ways.It is more about the quality of the DAC ,not the quality of the connection.Just because it is digital connection does not mean it will be better, it still must be converted to analog.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

In addition, did you bother to follow the links LJ posted? I will try to sum it up, 1.3 is pretty much useless at this point and may never be. The new HD audio formats are only going to be able to fully be utilized via multi-channel ANALOG outs.

As you only have a universal player for now you should be alright using the HDMI connections but as Bill stated, for best music playback you should test the analog against the digital connection for which sounds best. You can hook up both HDMI and a 2 channel analog connection and just toggle the selector for A/B comparison.

Congrads on the new gear and hope you really enjoy. If you do compare analog vs digital connections for music be sure to let us know how it went.

[gman086]

In addition, did you bother to follow the links LJ posted? I will try to sum it up, 1.3 is pretty much useless at this point and may never be. The new HD audio formats are only going to be able to fully be utilized via multi-channel ANALOG outs.

As you only have a universal player for now you should be alright using the HDMI connections but as Bill stated, for best music playback you should test the analog against the digital connection for which sounds best. You can hook up both HDMI and a 2 channel analog connection and just toggle the selector for A/B comparison.

Congrads on the new gear and hope you really enjoy. If you do compare analog vs digital connections for music be sure to let us know how it went.

Thank you! That is definitely my plan; I have some ZCable Live interconnects that I'd put up against all comers and the DAC in the universal is supposed to be high end (new flagship D/A converter from Cirrus Logic) so this will be quite a test. Both units should be in early next week so I'll post results by the end of next week. I've never owned Marantz before but have heard good things so I'm hopeful.

Thanks again to all that replied,

G