Any thoughts on power conditioners ?

[codecougar]

Now that I have my new HT set up just about complete, I was wondering if I should get a power conditioner. I am currently only using a Belkin surge protector.

Is this a must have item? Do most people here use them? If so, any recommendations?

I came across this one one on Amazon. The price looks decent, but I have no idea if it is any good.

http://www.amazon.com/11-OUTLET-Theater-Console-Purefilter%C2%BF-Control/dp/B000IKQU1U/ref=sr_1_1/002-2482134-9020846?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1191891466&sr=8-1

Just looking for some input here. Thanks guys !!

[codecougar]

oh and if you DON"T use one, I would like to know. I'm kinda wondering how many people around here actually use one.

[dingus]

i use one, more for the convenience of turning everything on with one button. it does provide some line protection but i have no idea to what extent (i dont want to find out if it can withstand a direct lightning strike). i've heard some say a quality conditioner will improve sound, i've heard others say an inadequate conditioner will degrade sound. still others note that amps have their own conditioners built in, which makes adding your own moot.

mine is an older Panamax 1000+ that i got for cheap. i cannot detect any change in the sound, with or without the device.

[PeruvianSkies]

Now that I have my new HT set up just about complete, I was wondering if I should get a power conditioner. I am currently only using a Belkin surge protector.

Is this a must have item? Do most people here use them? If so, any recommendations?

I came across this one one on Amazon. The price looks decent, but I have no idea if it is any good.

http://www.amazon.com/11-OUTLET-Theater-Console-Purefilter%C2%BF-Control/dp/B000IKQU1U/ref=sr_1_1/002-2482134-9020846?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1191891466&sr=8-1

Just looking for some input here. Thanks guys !!


I use that same power conditioner and have been very pleased with the results. I would highly recommend it for your needs.

[pixelthis]

oh and if you DON"T use one, I would like to know. I'm kinda wondering how many people around here actually use one.

I bought a Monster power strip for half price, (99$) and it has some filtering.
Unless you live in a third world country you don't really need "power filtering".
But one thing forgotten is power BACKUP.
Not just for your computer but for more delicate pieces of equipment, and stuff for which the memory will disapear with a power outage, or a cable box, that will lose the program guide with a power failure.
As more and more stuff becomes computerized a APC makes more and more sense

[gman086]

I have both a Monster HTS 3600 and 2600. They both change the tonal qualities of the sound. They tighten the bass giving it more punch and musical quality as well as reduce treble smearing improving soundstage. I was blown away by the difference! Ran blind tests with three friends and they all felt the tonal quality was much better with the conditioner (i didn't tell them when it was conditioned or not). I highly recommend them if you're a critical listener.

[gman086]

i use one, more for the convenience of turning everything on with one button. it does provide some line protection but i have no idea to what extent (i dont want to find out if it can withstand a direct lightning strike). i've heard some say a quality conditioner will improve sound, i've heard others say an inadequate conditioner will degrade sound. still others note that amps have their own conditioners built in, which makes adding your own moot.

mine is an older Panamax 1000+ that i got for cheap. i cannot detect any change in the sound, with or without the device.

I have a Panamax 1000+ laying around as well. That is a SURGE protector and not a power conditioner so you shouldn't notice any change in sound quality! There is a huge tonal difference compared to my Monster power conditioners which do improve sound from most of your everyday A/V receivers without external amps.

[Wireworm5]

I use and Art SP 4x4 power conditioner. When I first hooked it up I noticed detail from cd's, mp3's I never knew they were capable of. Now I don't know if it actually improved the cd player or regulated the voltage to my speakers so that the speakers were always drawing on full voltage. Regardless the sound was more detailed than previously. This also may be because I have all my equipment plugged into one wall outlet.
My brother also bought one after I told him about it, which he uses for his radio scanner. His is a better model with line filtering, and he said it eliminated the noise he was getting.

[E-Stat]

Unless you live in a third world country you don't really need "power filtering".
Actually, you have this bass ackwards. I'll go out on a limb and suggest there are few third world homes that contain multitudes of computer controlled appliances, cable boxes, Tivos, wireless routers. etc. which either radiate RFI or spew it back through the AC. It is those devices that generate the noise power conditioning products address.

rw

[dingus]

I have a Panamax 1000+ laying around as well. That is a SURGE protector and not a power conditioner so you shouldn't notice any change in sound quality! ...
i dont know, its marketed as a "line conditioner" but marketing dont make it so.

[s dog]

I have a panamax 4300, Seems to be ok, Looks good on the shelf.

[elapsed]

My next purchase is a Wiremold L10320 power strip. This power strip has 9 hospital-grade sockets hardwired together. There is no circuit breaker, no noise filter, no light, no switch and no fuse. Any one of these items will reduce the system's musical performance.

Don't be fooled by power conditioners, it's been my experience that these will make the system worse in every case (or possibly make one area a little better, while ruining many others).

[DEVO]

I have a Panamax M5400EX and I got it mainly for the A/C regeneration system. It goes from A/C to D/C and then back to A/C so it is perfect power.

[PeruvianSkies]

Actually, you have this bass ackwards. I'll go out on a limb and suggest there are few third world homes that contain multitudes of computer controlled appliances, cable boxes, Tivos, wireless routers. etc. which either radiate RFI or spew it back through the AC. It is those devices that generate the noise power conditioning products address.

rw

So what else is new....Pix is constantly plaguing this site with mis-information.

[PeruvianSkies]

There are two Belkin PureAV units that are quite nice...the PF40 and the PF60...the PF60 allows you to program each outlet and determine if you want it to be switched or not, while the PF40 is already pre-assigned. Both have 2 outlets designed for high-current amplifier attachments and both have a LED display that shows your current usage and such. I have both units and I have gone further with my isolation and have one setup for my audio system and one for my HT system. I also have them plugged into a PS Audio powerport.

What I like about the Belkin units is that they are very well constructed, perform with excellence and even look professional too. They are great units that you can usually find for a great price online as well.

[DEVO]

Actually, you have this bass ackwards. I'll go out on a limb and suggest there are few third world homes that contain multitudes of computer controlled appliances, cable boxes, Tivos, wireless routers. etc. which either radiate RFI or spew it back through the AC. It is those devices that generate the noise power conditioning products address.

rw

I don't believe that Pix is speaking about power conditioning in third world countries, but to use UPS's. I don't use one because I have a panel and not a lamp engine to cool down...I may need one for my CPU, just too lazy to get one!

[E-Stat]

I don't believe that Pix is speaking about power conditioning in third world countries, but to use UPS's. I don't use one because I have a panel and not a lamp engine to cool down...I may need one for my CPU, just too lazy to get one!
Perhaps. I simply commented on that which he wrote. Power filtering is not the same as power regeneration. I have no need for the latter.

I use an inexpensive UPS for my primary desktop computer to address a completely different problem from the subject of this thread.

rw

[kexodusc]

So what else is new....Pix is constantly plaguing this site with mis-information.
Thought you committed to leaving your thread-jacking Pix attacks to another thread....you know, that one you made?

[E-Stat]

Don't be fooled by power conditioners, it's been my experience that these will make the system worse in every case (or possibly make one area a little better, while ruining many others).
I would agree with you had you limited the scope to high current devices such as power amps, receivers, etc. It is for that reason I use aftermarket PCs for the power amps in the two music systems and the HT receiver. If you find that a power conditioner limits the current delivery to a preamp or source that draws less than one-half an ampere, then I would recommend trying another.

rw

[PeruvianSkies]

Thought you committed to leaving your thread-jacking Pix attacks to another thread....you know, that one you made?

This isn't an attack this is simply agreeing with someone else's comment and simply stating that this is nothing new. Thanks for your concern though on where, when, how, and why I post though.

[kexodusc]

This isn't an attack this is simply agreeing with someone else's comment and simply stating that this is nothing new. Thanks for your concern though on where, when, how, and why I post though.
First, you made no reference to agreeing with E-stat's comments, just more sarcasm.
Come on....you saw an opportunity and you took a shot at him..."So what else is new....Pix is constantly plaguing this site with mis-information." That's a bit more than a casual observation.

Anyway, post away, just try and keep the Pix-rhetoric to a minimum, please....ok?

[PeruvianSkies]

First, you made no reference to agreeing with E-stat's comments, just more sarcasm.
Come on....you saw an opportunity and you took a shot at him..."So what else is new....Pix is constantly plaguing this site with mis-information." That's a bit more than a casual observation.

Anyway, post away, just try and keep the Pix-rhetoric to a minimum, please....ok?

Since when did AR become a Fascist Regime and when did they elect you the Post SS officer?

Pix's information was incorrect and I disagree with what he said and I agree with what E-Stat said. There! Was the plain enough for your liking?

[DEVO]

I would agree with you had you limited the scope to high current devices such as power amps, receivers, etc. It is for that reason I use aftermarket PCs for the power amps in the two music systems and the HT receiver. If you find that a power conditioner limits the current delivery to a preamp or source that draws less than one-half an ampere, then I would recommend trying another.

rw

You do speak the truth that Krell doesn't want you to use power conditioners for their amps...but I haven't heard of anybody else. If there is, please provide data.

[PeruvianSkies]

You do speak the truth that Krell doesn't want you to use power conditioners for their amps...but I haven't heard of anybody else. If there is, please provide data.

Yes, I have heard that as well, yes I agree with DEVO's response to E-Stats. I also have not heard of any other amp manufacturer stating this, therefore I also agree with DEVO's statement about that. I would also be interested if there is any other information out there on this, which again I agree with DEVO's comment.

[E-Stat]

You do speak the truth that Krell doesn't want you to use power conditioners for their amps...but I haven't heard of anybody else. If there is, please provide data.
Nelson Pass makes the same recommendation for his larger amps. Use the Adobe search tool to locate the word "conditioner":

XA 100.5 (http://passlabs.com/downloads/xa100_5_om.pdf)

I simply cannot imagine someone wanting to run their high current amplifiers through yet another device and power cord. My VTL amps draw 10 amps each at full output. Ideally, I would have a dedicated line just for the amps, but my older home construction prevented me from recently having additional lines added by an electrician. Apparently, there are stacks of 2x4s forming a firewall that prevented him from being able to drop a line from the ceiling.

rw

[PeruvianSkies]

Nelson Pass makes the same recommendation for his larger amps. Use the Adobe search tool to locate the word "conditioner":

XA 100.5 (http://passlabs.com/downloads/xa100_5_om.pdf)

I simply cannot imagine someone wanting to run their high current amplifiers through yet another device and power cord. My VTL amps draw 10 amps each at full output. Ideally, I would have a dedicated line just for the amps, but my older home construction prevented me from recently having additional lines added by an electrician. Apparently, there are stacks of 2x4s forming a firewall that prevented him from being able to drop a line from the ceiling.

rw

Now that you say that I think MBL says the same thing and I am sure many of the other high-end gear, which unless that company also makes "conditioners" and such, it does seem that the gear is ready to go direct.

[DEVO]

Nelson Pass makes the same recommendation for his larger amps. Use the Adobe search tool to locate the word "conditioner":

XA 100.5 (http://passlabs.com/downloads/xa100_5_om.pdf)

I simply cannot imagine someone wanting to run their high current amplifiers through yet another device and power cord. My VTL amps draw 10 amps each at full output. Ideally, I would have a dedicated line just for the amps, but my older home construction prevented me from recently having additional lines added by an electrician. Apparently, there are stacks of 2x4s forming a firewall that prevented him from being able to drop a line from the ceiling.

rw

I didn't say it wasn't true, but good research by the way! 10 amp per...WOW! My entire system w/ plasma included only puts out about 5 amps peak. I don't want to look at your electric bill.

But, what you were speaking of earlier was receivers, cd players, etc. Power conditioners will not effect the way they operate as much as say a Krell or any other high current amp would.

Some are for marketing, but for the most part...they are for televisions and video products, to take out noise created by vacuum cleaners, fans, microwave ovens, cell phones, etc, etc, etc...

[E-Stat]

But, what you were speaking of earlier was receivers, cd players, etc. Power conditioners will not effect the way they operate as much as say a Krell or any other high current amp would.
I was responding to poster "elapsed's" opinion they "will make the system worse in every case". I find that to be the case only with high current devices. Sources, TVs, and low current devices benefit from lowering the noise floor. Use the appropriate tool for the situation.

rw

[codecougar]

Lots of good info here, but I am just as confused as when we started. :)

I guess my main concern here is my LCD television and Blu-ray player and whether or not I would benefit from a power conditioner.


elapsed, that Wiremold L10320 power strip looks really cool, but aren't you worried about power surges? Also, are you planning on plugging your tv into that as well ?

[elapsed]

Sure I'm worried about power surges. ;)

In any case here's what Naim North America (NANA) has to say on the topic of power conditioners:


System Setup - Should I purchase a power conditioner or surge suppressor for my Naim Audio system?
Many systems, in our experience, do not perform anywhere near the ultimate level of performance due to poor conditions regarding the system's electrical set-up. Surprisingly, just a few minutes of extra attention to the AC mains power for your system can unleash a great deal of extra music, at virtually no additional cost!

DEDICATED CIRCUIT
Do you have enough power to feed your system?

The power supplies of Naim Audio equipment are deisgned to be among the largest, noise-free and most stable in the industry. You should provide your system with the most power possible--excess electrical capacity is important to making a great sound.

It is ideal that the system have its own separate circuit and circuit breaker.

Your electrician should install a dedicated 15 A circuit, complete with new wire, directly to your system. One dual (2) socket hospital-grade outlet is all that is necessary.

The advantage of a dedicated circuit is that your system will not be sharing power directly with other appliances in your house on the same circuit. Tremendous distortion of the power wave may occur if the circuit shares power with a refrigerator or personal computer (or worse, a humidifier or heater). This can reduce the system's performance considerably.
NOTE: Unlike many systems that use vacuum tubes or class-A circuit topologies, your Naim system uses very little quiescent power. The constant power demand of a Naim system is very small when played at normal levels, this advantage reflected in the extended longevity of Naim Audio equipment.

Your Naim components will likely outlast other designs by a large margin!

Outlet Strips
Naim Audio North America strongly recommends, for use with our equipment, a dedicated outlet strip, without circuit breakers, switches, fuses, indicator lights or other passive components which will reduce a system's performance.

We recommend the following items:

CablePro Noisetrapper NANA 8-Outlet Power Strip ($349)
available from http://www.thecablepro.com Eight industrial-spec grade, high-copper-content brass outlets for better conductivity
Non-magnetic, aluminum-alloy chassis
Cascade parallel wiring for hot and neutral connections
Star-grounded to minimize noise
12-gauge silver-plated oxygen-free-copper wiring
Hardwired, shielded power cord



Brooks/Wiremold L10320 (6' cable, $55) / L10321 (15' cable, $65) Outlet Strip
available from your local Naim dealer Nine panel-mount brass outlets
Non-magnetic, aluminum-alloy chassis
Cascade parallel wiring for hot, neutral and ground connections
12-gauge copper wiring with crimp connections
6' or 15' stranded-copper power cord with molded plug



Sequencing
The order in which the components are plugged into the strip is critical. If you plug the power amplifier into the strip closest to the end where the strip power cord enters, and work your way back to the source component, you will get a much better sound. Here are some examples:

A simple system:

NAP 150x Power Amplifier
FLATCAP2x Power Supply for NAC 112x Preamplifier
CD5x Compact Disc Player
Other sources, turntable, etc., in any order

An SL2 active system:

NAP 250 Power Amplifier
NAP 250 Power Amplifier
HICAP2 Power Supply for SNAXO 242 Active Crossover
SUPERCAP2 Power Supply for NAC 282 Preamplifier
XPS2 Power Supply for CDX2 Compact Disc Player
In some cases, it may be preferable to plug the power amplifier directly into the wall socket.

Because of the advantage of being able to control the order in which the components are plugged in, using a dedicated outlet strip is far superior to plugging all system components directly into a quad or double quad receptacle. Here are a couple more tips:

Keep power wires separated from signal wires--do not bunch your power wires together, but keep them flowing as gracefully as possible (electricity does not flow effeciently around sharp corners and bends).
Use only the Naim Audio power cords as supplied--they easily outperform even the most expensive power cords, and certainly any average cord.
POWER CONDITIONERS
Our customers often inquire about the purchase of a power conditioner suitable for a Naim Audio system.

You absolutely do not need one--every power conditioner we know of reduces musical performance dramatically.

Do not be fooled--power conditioners will make your system worse in every case. (A few will make one area a little better while ruining fifty other areas--that is the best case we have seen!)

If the power is dirty, you can't improve it with a power conditioner without taking away some of the remaining quality and punch.

LIGHTNING
No power strip or conditioner can protect your system from lightning, your system's worst enemy.

Lightning raises the voltage on the ground side of the line, and can not be protected against--except by unplugging the system during a storm.

DISCLAIMER
We will not guarantee the performance of the system with any power conditioner, line conditioner or computer-grade outlet strip.

If you are not happy with your Naim system, please first try the recommended power setup described above. You should also refer to our SYSTEM SETUP GUIDE.

[elapsed]

Again, specific to Naim systems, but take a look at the inside of the power bar at the bottom of this page, yikes!

http://members.shaw.ca/mikesae/powerbar.htm

[codecougar]

Again, specific to Naim systems, but take a look at the inside of the power bar at the bottom of this page, yikes!

http://members.shaw.ca/mikesae/powerbar.htm

cool, thanks for all the info.

as a side note, I called my uncle who has been an AV nut since the 60's and told him I was confused over whether or not to buy a power conditioner. he simply asked, "are you having any trouble with your gear". my response, "no". he then asked, "have you ever had any problems with your gear". my reply again was no and he basically said, "then you probably don't need one".

so, I'm going to pass on the power conditioner for now.

Thanks for all the input guys !!

[Mr Peabody]

I'd suggest anyone interested go to www.amusicdirect.com to see if the PS Audio DVD, The History of Electricity, is still available, it's free.

This is not a "yes" & "no" question. To make a blanket statement that "NO" line conditioners work or are worth while is just not true. First, you have to know what the piece is supposed to do, power regulate, filter, surge protect etc. How much improvement or not depends on your electric company, how the service is delivered to your house, your houses wiring and what is plugged into your house's wiring.

The bottomline is you have to decide what you want the piece to do and then just try it. When I first started playing with conditioners I tried a Transparent multi outlet box, I can't remember the model, but it clearly degraded my Krell's attack. On the other hand I tried their power cords and was so impressed I bought one for every replaceable cord I had in my system. Lower signal sources benefited the most, like my CD player and phono stage, the noise floor was reduced drastically. I didn't even realize I had noise until it was gone. All the sudden I hear more subtle detail and the background is blacker.

A while back PS Audio came out with some new power products and I bought one to try, and again, I can't remember the name, I probably have it listed in my CP, anyway, it did not limit current, and new technology to filter and if the voltage goes up or down past the cutoff point, the unit will shut off to protect your gear. I have all my gear plugged into this unit and was thrilled with the improvement it made. Another member tried one based on my raves about the unit but his experience wasn't as great. You just have to try a piece and buy from a retailer that don't mind returns.

From what I've read, voltage regulation, despite many companies claims, is nearly impossible to accomplish and when it is possible it would not be close to being affordable.

Peoples different experiences with these types of products keeps the debate hot, much like upgrading inter connects. It's also a product one needs to research before jumping into, see what a unit says it will do. I don't think you will notice any difference from these basic outlet strips, to gain any improvement you have to get a unit that does provide filtering. High current pieces will need a unit with at least some outlets having unrestricted current flow, or, of course, it will make it sound worse, your choking it out. And, units that actually work are not going to be cheap. But considering the cost invested in today's home entertainment everyone should at least try these products to see if it does anything for you. The improvement I got was not subtle, I knew it was worth the money. It's also so easy to tell if it works, if you have to guess, or not sure, then it don't. Putting out the type of money some of these products cost the improvement should be apparent.

[pixelthis]

Actually, you have this bass ackwards. I'll go out on a limb and suggest there are few third world homes that contain multitudes of computer controlled appliances, cable boxes, Tivos, wireless routers. etc. which either radiate RFI or spew it back through the AC. It is those devices that generate the noise power conditioning products address.

rw

You went out on the limb, now let me saw it off.
Truth is, most "modern" appliances are well sheilded, and generate hardly any RF or
electromagnetic junk.
When CD players first came out they would generate interference, but that hasn't happened in awhile. When I was a kid everytime mom turned on the blender you could hear it through the TV, hardly ever anymore.
My digital cable box is sitting over my CD player and never interferes with it, and vice versa.
Most modern products have well designed power supplies, and the use of "wall warts"
has cured a lot of problems. But the sellers of "power conditioners" love to scare
the peoples with talk of that devil emf, anything to sell their latest version of snake oil.
As for third world countries, they sell radios with cranks because the power can get rather unreliable in places, but I can't remember the last time the power went off at my house,
and my computer sits right next to my receiver, you could never tell it.
As for power cords... DONT GET ME STARTED:incazzato:

[DEVO]

Truth is, most "modern" appliances are well sheilded, and generate hardly any RF or
electromagnetic junk.

Interesting...then why did I have to upgrade from the MRF100 radio frequency receiver to the MRF250 for my remote system? My cable box was spitting out way too much rf noize for the sensor to understand the data. The MRF250, you can adjust the individual sensor (cablebox) down and finally it was able to work?

[Glen B]

I also use a Belkin PF-60 with my HT system and highly recommend it.

[PeruvianSkies]

I also use a Belkin PF-60 with my HT system and highly recommend it.

Me too and ditto!

[fudgemik]

I have a parasound hca-1000a amplifier, yamaha rx-v2300 receiver, sony xbr2 60" lcd tv, and a denon dvd player all plugged into a apc back-up es 350 model, maybe i shouldnt, let me know what you guys think, thanks....................i know that when start to turn on the equipment that damn thing starts to beep, it makes think its wimpy!!!!!!!!!!!!

[gman086]

One thing I failed to mention in my original reply was that when I plugged my receiver (Yamaha RX-V995) into the recommended receiver outlet of the Monster HTS 3600, the analog filter DID degrade the sound! Then I plugged it into the high current filter (recommended for amps) and it IMPROVED the sound. So beware if you're using an A/V receiver that has high current amps, you need to plug it in to the correct outlet or you can see the sound degradation which has already been brought up by others in this thread. Again tho, I can't say enough good things about them if you use the proper outlets for your system's needs. There is absolutely no audible background noise in my system and everything is much more defined/clear improving soundstage dramatically. Everyone's system needs and power sources are different tho so to each his own!

Have FUN!

G MAN

[Mr Peabody]

You can sure do a quick test, unplug your Parasound and plug into the wall socket directly. If your strip is hindering performance you should notice the amp having a more punchy bass and the overall sound a bit livelier. How dramatic the difference, if any, depends on how much the strip is limiting your amps current draw. You also have to be in tune with your system and know how it sounds normally to detect differences, that goes for any change you want to evaluate.

[PeruvianSkies]

You can sure do a quick test, unplug your Parasound and plug into the wall socket directly. If your strip is hindering performance you should notice the amp having a more punchy bass and the overall sound a bit livelier. How dramatic the difference, if any, depends on how much the strip is limiting your amps current draw. You also have to be in tune with your system and know how it sounds normally to detect differences, that goes for any change you want to evaluate.

Yep...very easy thing to test! Not sure why people make it complicated.

[E-Stat]

You went out on the limb, now let me saw it off.
Or at least make an attempt.


Truth is, most "modern" appliances are well sheilded, and generate hardly any RF or
electromagnetic junk.
This truth is based upon exactly what?


When CD players first came out they would generate interference, but that hasn't happened in awhile.
Try this Pix. Take any CD player you please, even a battery powered unit and play it in the vicinity of an AM radio tuned off station. You'll hear the RFI.


Most modern products have well designed power supplies, and the use of "wall warts" has cured a lot of problems.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the common use of switching power supplies.


As for power cords... DONT GET ME STARTED:incazzato:
Is that a promise?

rw

[Mr Peabody]

I don't think anything Pix has would even allow for a power cord upgrade. Pix is your power cord issue based on experience or just what you suspect? I didn't believe just changing a power cord could do anything, when I brought home the Transparent multi outlet gizmo the dealer threw a power cord to me and told me to take that and try it too. So I did and it turned out to be a dramatic improvement. i tried it in a variety of my components. The outlet gizmo went back, I didn't like the effect but I kept that power cord and brought one home for everything in my system that would allow the upgrade.

[DEVO]

This gets off topic from power conditioning but from Mr. Peabody's statement...I agree, I have an Audioquest power cable NRG-5 that I replaced for my plasma. I could see an improvement in the colors and the 3D was amazing. If you have never seen it...or heard it...I guess it is snake oil. But don't bash it if you don't want it!
I want to get another one for my Debth.

[cvc]

Do you drink water from the tap? Can you taste the sea monkees? That's why I drink bottled water. Same thing with dirty electricity coming in to your system. Clean that crap up by using a line conditioner. I use 2 of these. These small power packs were recommended by the audiophile "man" Corey Greenberg. Your system will sound cleaner because the power is cleaner.

http://www.audiopower.com/newsite/pp2.html

[jrhymeammo]

Consider Power Conditioner as one of the tweaks.
Tweaks only work because problems exist in ones envirnment. No need to worry about conditioning electricity, if it sounds the same from pluging it in straight into a wall socket. Just spend $300 on the Duet made by PS Audio from one of those online retainers. I got mine from Acoustic Sounds and ended up returning it, cuz there wasnt a problem in envinrnment to begin with.

JRA

[pixelthis]

Interesting...then why did I have to upgrade from the MRF100 radio frequency receiver to the MRF250 for my remote system? My cable box was spitting out way too much rf noize for the sensor to understand the data. The MRF250, you can adjust the individual sensor (cablebox) down and finally it was able to work?
All of these new wireless devices have inteferrence issues, but with each other.
If your cable box is interferring with your stuff thats a completely seperate issue, the point is, is it showing up in the power? (NOT)
and I have several devices (integra receiver) that have detachable cords, and they work fine with the cords provided, but if you want to shell out the cash, and buy something with enough copper to keep the mint supplied for years, go ahead.
As for CD players interferring with AM radio, what does this have to do with power conditioners? Not to mention that if you tune an AM radio "off station you will hear
just about ANYTHING that produces a spark. As for switching power supplies, anything that uses such should be well enough designed to not issue much interferrence.
Most devices, even more advanced gear, just use the old step down transformer
with filtering caps, etc, works fine for most applications.
I AM NOT SAYING THAT there are "never" ANY INTERFERRENCE ISSUES, just that
its not a big enough deal to spend several hundred dollars, when rearranging cables
amd the like will cure most issues.
AND if your HTis large enough you probably need a seperate breaker box for it, seperating it from your mundane house current and curing most problems at the start.
And if not a simple power strip with minimal filtering and decently sheilded cables will cure most problems

[E-Stat]

If your cable box is interferring with your stuff thats a completely seperate issue, the point is, is it showing up in the power? (NOT)
Exactly how is it you know this about my systems?


As for CD players interferring with AM radio, what does this have to do with power conditioners?
I'll put the pieces together for you. Remember this statement?

...and generate hardly any RF

Actually, many do. Relevance? You mean other than the obvious isolation ? :)


As for switching power supplies, anything that uses such should be well enough designed to not issue much interferrence.
But they still feed spurious noise back into the AC. Your electrical theory goes only so far.

rw

[elapsed]

Recieved my $30 Wiremold L10320 power strip today, which is replacing my Belkin Heavy Duty surge protector. Immediate noticable improvement. In my setup I can attest that a high current amp will definately benefit from a quality power bar; no switches, no circuit breakers, no fuses, no line conditioning and no indicator lights. Highly recommend.

[E-Stat]

Recieved my $30 Wiremold L10320 power strip today, which is replacing my Belkin Heavy Duty surge protector. Immediate noticable improvement. In my setup I can attest that a high current amp will definately benefit from a quality power bar; no switches, no circuit breakers, no fuses, no line conditioning and no indicator lights.

What sort of improvement do you notice with your amp using the Wiremold power strip vs. going direct?

rw

[elapsed]

What sort of improvement do you notice with your amp using the Wiremold power strip vs. going direct?

rw
A layer of distortion has been removed, the full system sounds more controlled and more powerful, music sounds very smooth. There's more music to hear, you can actually hear more detail interestingly enough. This was noticable immediately after powering back up, but has improved more this morning after my system has sufficiently warmed up. Very impressed.

[E-Stat]

A layer of distortion has been removed, the full system sounds more controlled and more powerful, music sounds very smooth. There's more music to hear, you can actually hear more detail interestingly enough. This was noticable immediately after powering back up, but has improved more this morning after my system has sufficiently warmed up. Very impressed.
I confess that's pretty amazing for a power strip that doesn't attempt to address any noise/RFI issues. And to think the manufacturer only pitches the product as a convenient way to extend power!

rw

[elapsed]

Funny thing was I purchased off a reputable electronics components company, who have no idea the power strip is used in hifi systems, as far as they're concerned its just a high quality, hospital-grade power strip.

I should note that the improvements weren't dramatic, just many areas had a small but noticable improvement.

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE=E-Stat]Exactly how is it you know this about my systems?

Well, being an electrostatics fan its a pretty good guess that you like to complicate
the hell outta stuff unnessesarrily, but unless you bought your system on mars,
its going to have standard parts and engineering , and interferrence is something that,
while still a small problem in certain instances has largely been dealt with, its certainly not the bugaboo that snake oil salesmen make it out to be when selling "power " conditioners

I'll put the pieces together for you. Remember this statement?

...and generate hardly any RF

Which isnt incompatible with what I said, they DO hardly generate any RF, it just doesnt take much to send a signal to an off channel AM radio

Actually, many do. Relevance? You mean other than the obvious isolation ? :)


But they still feed spurious noise back into the AC. Your electrical theory goes only so far.

Yep, which most modern devices handle fine. I was around during the eighties, when interferrence from the procs in CD players were a real problem, compared to that they are
hardly an issue anymore.
AND I hope you and the ten other people listening to AM radio enjoy yourselves
rw
:1:

[E-Stat]

[QUOTE=E-Stat]...its going to have standard parts and engineering , and interferrence is something that, while still a small problem in certain instances has largely been dealt with...
You're completely missing the point. The source noise in my environment is generated by two wireless access points, router, two desktop computers, computerized microwave oven, computerized washing machine/drying cabinet, four wireless phones, three digital cable boxes, light dimmers, etc.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

Almost everything plugged into your homes electrical system will introduce noise. There isn't any filtering on florescent lights. Appliances and small electronics have no reason and don't want to add the expense of filtering the power, especially what travels back out.

I admit I'm not an EE, so therefore I can't break it down for you, but I do know what has worked for me. All of these items are not snake oil. Like I said before it is something that each person has to try in there particular home and set up to see if the benefit is worth the asking price. A $200.00 power cord took my CD player and phono stage up a notch, considering what these items cost new and what the cost to better them with new electronics would be, I consider the $200.00 darn well spent. I am thoroughly convinced in power cord upgrades.

As far as power outlet devices go, if you've paid attention to others posts here, my previous comments have held true. You have to know what these things do and you can't make a blanket statement about them. They can be very beneficial used correctly.

Pix, you should order the PS Audio DVD. This thing is more like a documentary and will show you how impurities get into electricity.

[PeruvianSkies]

Almost everything plugged into your homes electrical system will introduce noise. There isn't any filtering on florescent lights. Appliances and small electronics have no reason and don't want to add the expense of filtering the power, especially what travels back out.

I admit I'm not an EE, so therefore I can't break it down for you, but I do know what has worked for me. All of these items are not snake oil. Like I said before it is something that each person has to try in there particular home and set up to see if the benefit is worth the asking price. A $200.00 power cord took my CD player and phono stage up a notch, considering what these items cost new and what the cost to better them with new electronics would be, I consider the $200.00 darn well spent. I am thoroughly convinced in power cord upgrades.

As far as power outlet devices go, if you've paid attention to others posts here, my previous comments have held true. You have to know what these things do and you can't make a blanket statement about them. They can be very beneficial used correctly.

Pix, you should order the PS Audio DVD. This thing is more like a documentary and will show you how impurities get into electricity.


Is that DVD from PS Audio free ??? I think I signed up for something from them before that was "free" and it never arrived.

[Mr Peabody]

Absolutely free, if still available, go to www.amusicdirect.com

[pixelthis]

[QUOTE=pixelthis]
You're completely missing the point. The source noise in my environment is generated by two wireless access points, router, two desktop computers, computerized microwave oven, computerized washing machine/drying cabinet, four wireless phones, three digital cable boxes, light dimmers, etc.

rw

YOU are the one missing the "point", everything you mentioned is
AIRBORNE. No way is a "power conditioner" going to catch it, hell, it could introduce itself at the output of said conditioner.
If anything says "wireless" I ask myself if its absolutely nessesary, a lot of times its not.
When you buy some cables, etc, check the package where it says sheilded.
That means that most RF wont make it through, in any event a "power conditioner"
will be next to useless, no replacement for carefull system layout, and cord running.
My "wires" look a little sloppy, but closer inspection shows that the power strip
(a 200$ monster monster) is away from the cable and data cables. Some stuff crosses but nothing I will be using at the same time.
And say what you want about monster, they are a value way of putting a system together
and work well.
I don't buy cables for "sonic" properties, thats a delusion I leave to others.
One thing is key, is it well sheilded? Gold plate? A decent guage? Cool looking?
Reasonable price? And I have never had any problems with gremlins in the system
(knock on wood).
And all of that stuff youi mentioned has adequate sheilding, if your having problems call an electrician. I'm not kidding, they can work wonders (like putting a standalone power box to feed your system):ciappa:

[pixelthis]

ONE more thing, even christmas tree lights now have procs that run higher than the range of human hearing, a lot of what you mentioned operates in the GHZ range, so if it does interfere, you probably wont hear it.
ALL of that RF crap you're throwing in the air will probably give you cancer before it interferes with your stuff:ciappa:

[E-Stat]

YOU are the one missing the "point", everything you mentioned is
AIRBORNE.
The noise such devices introduces to the AC line is most certainly not limited to airborne effects.


I don't buy cables for "sonic" properties, thats a delusion I leave to others.
Depends upon your definition of "sonic properties". When one needs low capacitance cable, then "sonic properties" come into play. Shielded (not sheilded) cables can be of benefit in many real world systems.


And all of that stuff youi mentioned has adequate sheilding, if your having problems call an electrician. I'm not kidding, they can work wonders (like putting a standalone power box to feed your system):ciappa:
You must be joking.

rw

[pixelthis]

The noise such devices introduces to the AC line is most certainly not limited to airborne effects.


Depends upon your definition of "sonic properties". When one needs low capacitance cable, then "sonic properties" come into play. Shielded (not sheilded) cables can be of benefit in many real world systems.


You must be joking.

rw

JUST trying to explain something to someone who is clueless.
Just what kind of "interferrence" is a 5.2 ghz signal going to introduce into a power line
that a human can hear ? Thats a portable phone.
And most of the other stuff is in the ghz range.
I work in a hospital with a cell phone tower across the street.
Seems like if anybody had trouble with interferrence it would be them, but their standalone
"med net" doesnt seem to suffer, nor their cable, internet, or other systems.
Know how many computers, routers, etc are in such a place? Nurses walking down the hall talking on the phone, portable monitors, etc.
I LEARNED LONG AGO that hi-fi HT types are vunerable to delusions put toward them
by unscrupulous types, which is bad enough, but everytime I SEE some pimply
faced "sales associate" selling the latest peice of voodoo to some aging audiophile
with no discernment I wanna hurl.
Its their money, but that makes me out to be an idiot by associaton.
Unless theres a special problem (like when I lived down the street from a taxicab stand)
well sheilded cables and proper planning are all you will need, in most cases.
But if you want to pay good cash on stuff that probably isn't there, and that you couldn't
hear or see even if it was, then be my guest.
I'd rather spend my cash on gear and movies:1:

[E-Stat]

JUST trying to explain something to someone who is clueless.
Just what kind of "interferrence" is a 5.2 ghz signal going to introduce into a power line
that a human can hear ?
You continue to miss the point. Any device with a switching power supply adds noise to the power line. Take a scope and have a look.


Thats a portable phone.
Actually, mine operate at 49 mhz, 900 mhz, and 2.4 ghz. Not talking about them.


...well sheilded...
Still cannot spell the word I see.

rw

[PeruvianSkies]

JUST trying to explain something to someone who is clueless.
Just what kind of "interferrence" is a 5.2 ghz signal going to introduce into a power line
that a human can hear ? Thats a portable phone.
And most of the other stuff is in the ghz range.
I work in a hospital with a cell phone tower across the street.
Seems like if anybody had trouble with interferrence it would be them, but their standalone
"med net" doesnt seem to suffer, nor their cable, internet, or other systems.
Know how many computers, routers, etc are in such a place? Nurses walking down the hall talking on the phone, portable monitors, etc.
I LEARNED LONG AGO that hi-fi HT types are vunerable to delusions put toward them
by unscrupulous types, which is bad enough, but everytime I SEE some pimply
faced "sales associate" selling the latest peice of voodoo to some aging audiophile
with no discernment I wanna hurl.
Its their money, but that makes me out to be an idiot by associaton.
Unless theres a special problem (like when I lived down the street from a taxicab stand)
well sheilded cables and proper planning are all you will need, in most cases.
But if you want to pay good cash on stuff that probably isn't there, and that you couldn't
hear or see even if it was, then be my guest.
I'd rather spend my cash on gear and movies:1:

You better start showing some respect to our moderator, he knows his stuff and has the knowledge to prove it, plus loads of experience. Instead of running your little rants you might want to read what he says and you might learn something from it, then you can pass that knowledge off to those you meet in the future, rather than plaguing this site with your misguided, unexperienced, and ridiculous posts that only show just how little you know.

[jim goulding]

Pix- You still at it? Did you come here with that chip on your shoulder or did you just see a role you could play? I'm thinking you're relishing being the resident provocateur. Anyway, I don't personally use any line filtering or RF control other than some ferrite collars on my interconnects that cost about five bucks total and I only do that as a precaution cause I don't hear anything from it but I know a guy that put a seroius product on his TV and says that he improved his picture by a league or something. He went on to do his hifi rig and swears by this stuff. I'm tempted to plug my active speakers into one of these when and if I can find something well regarded by users and that I can afford. Who here has some practical expereince?

[Glen B]

You better start showing some respect to our moderator

The policies here at AR are pretty liberal and tolerant. There's another forum where just "rolling your eyes" at a moderator will get you banned.

[E-Stat]

The policies here at AR are pretty liberal and tolerant. There's another forum where just "rolling your eyes" at a moderator will get you banned.
As a mod, I just look for uncalled for personal attacks. Calling me "clueless" is pretty benign especially when that individual has zero experience with that which I'm discussing. Like another poster with whom I had a similar discussion a while back. While "Woodman" was a veteran electronics tech (likely like pix), he had absolutely zero experience with aftermarket power cords. Here was his belief: "Likewise, the A-C power cord can have no effect whatsoever on the performance of an electronic component ... none. "

Sadly, he couldn't understand the mechanisms so they didn't exist. And he necessarily couldn't benefit (however slightly) from using that which he couldn't imagine should or does work.

rw

[pixelthis]

As a mod, I just look for uncalled for personal attacks. Calling me "clueless" is pretty benign especially when that individual has zero experience with that which I'm discussing. Like another poster with whom I had a similar discussion a while back. While "Woodman" was a veteran electronics tech (likely like pix), he had absolutely zero experience with aftermarket power cords. Here was his belief: "Likewise, the A-C power cord can have no effect whatsoever on the performance of an electronic component ... none. "

Sadly, he couldn't understand the mechanisms so they didn't exist. And he necessarily couldn't benefit (however slightly) from using that which he couldn't imagine should or does work.

rw

YEAH ,I know absolutely nothing about it, just been in the hobby since I was 12, had three years of electronics training, and was pretty knowledgeable before I got out to go into law enforcement.
In the thirty eight years I have enjoyed this hobby I have never seen a "power conditioner"
do any good whatsoever, double blind tests consistently confirm this.
When CD players came out you had to be careful about placement, sometimes you could hear the proc working if it was on your VCR or near your receiver, but those days are gone.
Doesnt matter what "inpurities" are introduced into a system if you can't hear them,
and unless your a canine you wont hear much of anything past 14 khz if you're a prodigy,
most don't hear anything past 12 or so.
I went through some tough times awhile back, had to pay attention to what was coming into my system, so I know what I'M talking about, one reason I switched to monster
cable was that they seem better sheilded than the cheap crap I was using.
As for switching power supplies, give me a break, if you can "hear " any noise from one of these then its a cheap piece of crap , do you have any cheap pieces of crap in your system?
My home built computer sits NEXT to my receiver, stays on 24/7, NEVER HEAR A PEEP OUT OF IT.
But really, the condescension on this board, you think I don't know anything because I disagree with you?
Maybe instead of beleiving you I would rather beleive the thousands of articles and experts who claim , after using scientific methods, that these and other such gimmicks are snake
oil. I have never seen any article where blindfolded people could tell the difference.
So , you say, you might not be able to "tell" but it will color your music.
Anything will "color" your music, the biggest influence being your speakers.
Again, a lot of deluded types are more than happy to snap up the latest idea from the copper mining industry to push more copper, and if in your imagination this makes a "difference" in your system, them more "power " to ya.
I would much rather spend my somewhat limited budget on things that MATTER:1:

[pixelthis]

You better start showing some respect to our moderator, he knows his stuff and has the knowledge to prove it, plus loads of experience. Instead of running your little rants you might want to read what he says and you might learn something from it, then you can pass that knowledge off to those you meet in the future, rather than plaguing this site with your misguided, unexperienced, and ridiculous posts that only show just how little you know.

NOBODY asked your opinion, if you don't have anything meaningfull to add,
(and you usually don't) then why don't you BUTT OUT:cornut:

[pixelthis]

REALLY, the heat you get when you threaten the little myths that some "audiophiles"
adhere to, usually quite blindly:1:

[E-Stat]

In the thirty eight years I have enjoyed this hobby I have never seen a "power conditioner"
do any good whatsoever, double blind tests consistently confirm this.
As for me, I prefer to listen to the results. :)

DBTs test what they test. Problem is they rarely if ever test the kinds of products I've used. Laboratory results are llikewise next to useless because the noise issues are location specific. My experience differs from yours. Further, I suspect that you have not heard the products I have nor used any aftermarket power cords. Vocational electronics courses don't begin to address this topic.

The differences I hear are indeed subtle, but there. The highest frequencies are softer and free from a kind of hash that makes things sound grainier. There is a quieter background. You get more resolution at the PP end of the dynamics spectrum.

rw

[gman086]

Well here's an interesting twist... the power conditioner that worked so well for me with my ANALOG cd player into a Yamaha receiver DEGRADED the sound of my new Marantz system hooked up digitally to my universal player with HDMI! BUT, the digital filters of the Monster 3600 conditioner worked great for the HDTV. So... on a hunch I hooked up the A/V receiver to one of the dedicated outlets for DIGITAL sources (cd, dvd, sat, etc.) and viola! Sounds perfect! It seems since I was using an analog source before, the analog filter built into the receiver outlet circuit on the 3600 worked fine but not if you're feeding your receiver a direct digital source, then it just degraded the sound. The digital filtering was the key and I wasted half my day frustrated trying to get that perfect sound until I figured this out! Hope this can help someone.

Have FUN!

G

[pixelthis]

As for me, I prefer to listen to the results. :)

DBTs test what they test. Problem is they rarely if ever test the kinds of products I've used. Laboratory results are llikewise next to useless because the noise issues are location specific. My experience differs from yours. Further, I suspect that you have not heard the products I have nor used any aftermarket power cords. Vocational electronics courses don't begin to address this topic.

The differences I hear are indeed subtle, but there. The highest frequencies are softer and free from a kind of hash that makes things sound grainier. There is a quieter background. You get more resolution at the PP end of the dynamics spectrum.

rw

HEY , IF IT MAKES YOU HAPPY.
But getting a spurious signal through todays power supplies isn't easy.
AND "vocational" classes don't deal with this kind of stuff, too busy dealing with
REALITY.
I mean, isn't this expensive enough a hobby without inventing things to waste your money
on?
For my last years "project" I built a three stage FET amp on a little circuit board out of a kit, the power supply was on the board, a little transformer and a few diodes, capacitors,
etc, hooked it up to an old "superhet" FM radio and listened to it for years, with no trouble whatsoever.
But I will concede one point, decent sheilding and a decent power strip can't hurt, if you're spending big bucks on a system why not?
But most "power " conditioners , if they do do anything (which I doubt) just arent worth the money. Most modern power supplies have a metal cage or sit outside a device, and the power in this country is cleaner than the residents deserve.
AS for power cords, all they are is a larger guage of copper, after the power hits your power supply it will change a lot more than what that power cord will do to it,
what is most worrisome is data cables, if you get any interferrence it will be there,
but most power supplies will filter out anything in the power before it even gets to your system:1:

[PeruvianSkies]

HEY , IF IT MAKES YOU HAPPY.
But getting a spurious signal through todays power supplies isn't easy.
AND "vocational" classes don't deal with this kind of stuff, too busy dealing with
REALITY.
I mean, isn't this expensive enough a hobby without inventing things to waste your money
on?
For my last years "project" I built a three stage FET amp on a little circuit board out of a kit, the power supply was on the board, a little transformer and a few diodes, capacitors,
etc, hooked it up to an old "superhet" FM radio and listened to it for years, with no trouble whatsoever.
But I will concede one point, decent sheilding and a decent power strip can't hurt, if you're spending big bucks on a system why not?
But most "power " conditioners , if they do do anything (which I doubt) just arent worth the money. Most modern power supplies have a metal cage or sit outside a device, and the power in this country is cleaner than the residents deserve.
AS for power cords, all they are is a larger guage of copper, after the power hits your power supply it will change a lot more than what that power cord will do to it,
what is most worrisome is data cables, if you get any interferrence it will be there,
but most power supplies will filter out anything in the power before it even gets to your system:1:

Why are you so worried about how others spend their money? It would seem that you are jealous or envious of those who want to spend money on this hobby. People are entitled to spend money how they wish and we don't need you trying to put us down for spending money on certain things just because you choose not to.

[pixelthis]

Why are you so worried about how others spend their money? It would seem that you are jealous or envious of those who want to spend money on this hobby. People are entitled to spend money how they wish and we don't need you trying to put us down for spending money on certain things just because you choose not to.
I am not worried about how others spend their money, IF they are well informed.
Someone new to this stuff needs to know that there are those who will spend
thousands on "improvements" that produce no real audio or video improvement
whatsoever. Some "newbies" might get the idea that junk like "power conditioners"
and pet rocks on your speakers are usefull.
BUT if you're an oldtimer and been around awhile and should know better than by all means go ahead and waste your money, shysters need to make a living too.
Thinking that "power cords" and "power conditioners" will have anything to do with your sound is silly to anyone who knows the basics about electronics.
Its the electronic version of Aquafina, which turned out to be tap water.
But the rational crowd, who understands a little somethin somethin about how things work
and what I call the "heads in the clouds" crowd, who talk about stuff like how a
power cord makes sound "darker" are always going to be at odds about this stuff.
So by all means waste your coin on the latest hula hoop, help keep the economy going.
I'll just sit back and watch movies I bought with MY money.:1:

[E-Stat]

Thinking that "power cords" and "power conditioners" will have anything to do with your sound is silly to anyone who knows the basics about electronics.
It's a shame your exposure to hearing high resolution systems is so limited.

"In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is."

Yogi Berra

rw

[dingus]

in the end i dont care in the least what is measured, can or cannot be measured, or what goes along with or against conventional theories of electricity. i will always let my ears be the final judge. in my very limited experience with conditioners, i could detect no audible difference in sound, with or without the unit inline. that only means that the particular conditioner i used had no effect on the sound in my system.

if somebody tells me that something effects the sound of their system, i cannot corroborate or refute the claim unless i hear it for myself.

[Mr Peabody]

Power conditioners, upgraded power cords and higher quality cables can all have a positive effect on certain systems. Dingus said it well in his post. Although I have to say the article he posted a link to is rubbish, if we all don't have a 30 second worth of memory then we are lost. Anyway, not to get side tracked.

The nimrods like Pix who argue people would spend thousands of dollars on tweaks for no other reason than to have them for show or we are so stupid we can get psyched out into believing something works when it don't and they are the only intelligent people in the world who can see through the fog are beyond foolish. In fact, so foolish that they will be deprived of any of these products because they are closed minded and if they did use any of them, they'd have to admit they were WRONG. It's even more astounding when those who are familiar with audio take a stance similar to Pix because they should very well know that not all things related to sound quality can be measured.

In my case there are a few holes in Pix's warped out theory. All of the products I tried there was no money paid until after I tried the product, so I didn't have to justify anything. Most of my aftermarket cables and my power conditioner are not visible unless I took some one over and pointed these things out behind my shelving and TV, so I wasted my money on hi fi bling there. Some products I tried were returned, so I guess I was hypnotized only part of the time. The problem I have with articles like Dingus posted and the other naysayers, who do so just for attention, say we can't tell any difference, our memory of what we heard is too short etc. it's crap, if some one can't tell if one way has more bass or more detail than another way, then how can anything be evaluated. If I can't tell if one power cord makes a difference over another, then how can I tell if one CD player, or anything else has a difference. We might as well buy the cheapest shtuff and forget about it. None of these arguments naysayers of these upgrades holds water because the same senses we use to evaluate any hi fi gear are used when we evaluate the upgrade. Either there is an effect, or not. What's the big magic trick?

All I can say is I hope each person tries upgrades for themselves, and if one don't work, don't close the door because maybe the next one will.

A big key is whether the system with the added tweak has the resolution to show any difference. Since 99% of the misguided people on this board believe that speakers are the most important link in a system and least expense is their source, I doubt if resolution is part of their listening life. But don't let me mix my pet peevs.

[pixelthis]

Power conditioners, upgraded power cords and higher quality cables can all have a positive effect on certain systems. Dingus said it well in his post. Although I have to say the article he posted a link to is rubbish, if we all don't have a 30 second worth of memory then we are lost. Anyway, not to get side tracked.

The nimrods like Pix who argue people would spend thousands of dollars on tweaks for no other reason than to have them for show or we are so stupid we can get psyched out into believing something works when it don't and they are the only intelligent people in the world who can see through the fog are beyond foolish. In fact, so foolish that they will be deprived of any of these products because they are closed minded and if they did use any of them, they'd have to admit they were WRONG. It's even more astounding when those who are familiar with audio take a stance similar to Pix because they should very well know that not all things related to sound quality can be measured.

In my case there are a few holes in Pix's warped out theory. All of the products I tried there was no money paid until after I tried the product, so I didn't have to justify anything. Most of my aftermarket cables and my power conditioner are not visible unless I took some one over and pointed these things out behind my shelving and TV, so I wasted my money on hi fi bling there. Some products I tried were returned, so I guess I was hypnotized only part of the time. The problem I have with articles like Dingus posted and the other naysayers, who do so just for attention, say we can't tell any difference, our memory of what we heard is too short etc. it's crap, if some one can't tell if one way has more bass or more detail than another way, then how can anything be evaluated. If I can't tell if one power cord makes a difference over another, then how can I tell if one CD player, or anything else has a difference. We might as well buy the cheapest shtuff and forget about it. None of these arguments naysayers of these upgrades holds water because the same senses we use to evaluate any hi fi gear are used when we evaluate the upgrade. Either there is an effect, or not. What's the big magic trick?

All I can say is I hope each person tries upgrades for themselves, and if one don't work, don't close the door because maybe the next one will.

A big key is whether the system with the added tweak has the resolution to show any difference. Since 99% of the misguided people on this board believe that speakers are the most important link in a system and least expense is their source, I doubt if resolution is part of their listening life. But don't let me mix my pet peevs.


Whats astounding is spending big bucks on stuff like power cords and "conditioners"
when you could spend it putting real improvement into your system.
There are people offering money if blindfolded people can tell the difference between
power cords, etc, nobodies ever collected.
Take the top off of your gear sometimes, look at the capacitors , some quite large, look at the guage of wire running from the input jacks.
People who care more about sound instead of wasting money on "tweaks" that produce no real benefit will never see eye to eye with those who imagine things that justify buying tweaks, we have been arguing about this for DECADES,
and it won't be resolved here.
But newbies who are just getting into this come here and other places, they need to hear both sides.
the small differences in cables is problematic enough, but by the time power finally gets through your power supply it doesnt resemble ANYTHING like what went in, if you are hearing any difference in power cords its all in your mind, sorry but thats the facts,
and a decent power strip well put together(mine cost 200, got it for 100) are really all you need.
the theory that junk creeps into the final product of a system is even more dicey in the digital age.
Converting something to digital and back to analog is the ultimate "filter", if there is anything there it will be left out, mostly. And digital is what most listen to these days:1:

[dingus]

Power conditioners, upgraded power cords and higher quality cables can all have a positive effect on certain systems. Dingus said it well in his post. Although I have to say the article he posted a link to is rubbish...
what link?

[emorphien]

if somebody tells me that something effects the sound of their system, i cannot corroborate or refute the claim unless i hear it for myself.
I agree however my caveat is with how subjective hearing is to what someone wants to believe, and with how much misinformation is present in the audiophile community, my generally impression of most of those claims is that "they're hogwash."

[Groundbeef]

Too some degree I think that power conditioners are a bit overhyped. That being said, I DO own one for my rather budget concious system. I don't have 10K of electronics, so why spend hundreds for the power end?

I don't often agree with Pixel, but there was a small nugget of truth in his arguement "Why not spend your money where it will be noticed?". In my case, speakers. Wouldn't I be better served to buy a higher quality speaker, than invest in a high $$ conditioner? Would not the payoff be greater?

However, if say you own very $$ speakers, quality is probably not an issue. In that case, incremental gains are probably what you will have to gain. Sort of like the law of diminishing returns. Once the majors (better speakers, nicer reciever etc) are fufilled, then you can concentrate on the minors.

I would suggest that for smaller, non-professional systems (mine) a decent sub $150 conditioner/surge arrester is MORE than adequate. For professional/high end, I frankly don't know what would be acceptable. If you have the money, and it "sounds" better, than so be it. While I do feel it's foolish to spend several hundred $$/foot for wire/connections, I'm not going to be the judge for a system I can't afford.

Chances are, if your spending hundreds on connections, money isn't your last concern.

[Mr Peabody]

D, I think you posted it on the speaker wire thread. It was the one showing length of wire and what gauge you should use not to effect impedance.

Pix, give me the contact info, I will take anyone's DBT. Why would you spend $100.00 on a power strip when you can get one for $10.00? Like I said, cables and power products are the same as any other component, if we can't trust ourselves to evaluate them, then we can't be trusted to evaluate anything. So save a bunch of money and forget the hobby all together because humans are not capable of discerning changes in sound. Those guys who tune their guitar by ear have a hell of an imagination.

[PeruvianSkies]

Too some degree I think that power conditioners are a bit overhyped. That being said, I DO own one for my rather budget concious system. I don't have 10K of electronics, so why spend hundreds for the power end?

I don't often agree with Pixel, but there was a small nugget of truth in his arguement "Why not spend your money where it will be noticed?". In my case, speakers. Wouldn't I be better served to buy a higher quality speaker, than invest in a high $$ conditioner? Would not the payoff be greater?

However, if say you own very $$ speakers, quality is probably not an issue. In that case, incremental gains are probably what you will have to gain. Sort of like the law of diminishing returns. Once the majors (better speakers, nicer reciever etc) are fufilled, then you can concentrate on the minors.

I would suggest that for smaller, non-professional systems (mine) a decent sub $150 conditioner/surge arrester is MORE than adequate. For professional/high end, I frankly don't know what would be acceptable. If you have the money, and it "sounds" better, than so be it. While I do feel it's foolish to spend several hundred $$/foot for wire/connections, I'm not going to be the judge for a system I can't afford.

Chances are, if your spending hundreds on connections, money isn't your last concern.


I don't think anyone is arguing that you should spend money equally on power conditioning as you do on the rest of your system, just like everything else it needs to be with the correct proportions.

[PeruvianSkies]

D, I think you posted it on the speaker wire thread. It was the one showing length of wire and what gauge you should use not to effect impedance.

Pix, give me the contact info, I will take anyone's DBT. Why would you spend $100.00 on a power strip when you can get one for $10.00? Like I said, cables and power products are the same as any other component, if we can't trust ourselves to evaluate them, then we can't be trusted to evaluate anything. So save a bunch of money and forget the hobby all together because humans are not capable of discerning changes in sound. Those guys who tune their guitar by ear have a hell of an imagination.

I can tune my guitar by ear and I am about 99.9% in tune all the time with the tuner. I have what they call 'perfect pitch' and it's not something everyone has nor is it sometime you just get overnight, it takes time to develop your ear for pitch.

[emorphien]

Those guys who tune their guitar by ear have a hell of an imagination.
Wow, I'm quite disappointed to see someone attempt to make this argument.

If you simply look at scientifically measured specs alone, it's quite obvious one who knows what to look for will be able to detect an out of tune instrument. Be it a guitar, piano, trombone or flute. However the measurements do not support that for many of the audiophile tweaks people spend money on. What's more ironic is people are blissfully unaware that there are other, more significant upgrades they can make like room acoustics that don't have to be more expensive.

Do scientific measurements matter? Does an understanding of how they relate to human hearing matter? I think so, but many audiophiles are quick to discount those claims. However nobody has actually been able to prove in a proper DBT one way or another for most tweaks and even if they did, the hard core tweakers wouldn't care so it's easier to just let them live in their oblivious state of tweaking bliss.

[Groundbeef]

Do scientific measurements matter? Does an understanding of how they relate to human hearing matter? I think so, but many audiophiles are quick to discount those claims. However nobody has actually been able to prove in a proper DBT one way or another for most tweaks and even if they did, the hard core tweakers wouldn't care so it's easier to just let them live in their oblivious state of tweaking bliss.

And so much easier to charge $$$ for a few feet of wire.

[Mr Peabody]

Wow, I'm quite disappointed to see someone attempt to make this argument.

If you simply look at scientifically measured specs alone, it's quite obvious one who knows what to look for will be able to detect an out of tune instrument. Be it a guitar, piano, trombone or flute. However the measurements do not support that for many of the audiophile tweaks people spend money on. What's more ironic is people are blissfully unaware that there are other, more significant upgrades they can make like room acoustics that don't have to be more expensive.

Do scientific measurements matter? Does an understanding of how they relate to human hearing matter? I think so, but many audiophiles are quick to discount those claims. However nobody has actually been able to prove in a proper DBT one way or another for most tweaks and even if they did, the hard core tweakers wouldn't care so it's easier to just let them live in their oblivious state of tweaking bliss.

The argument is quite valid. You either missed the point or refuse to accept it. People like you, Pix, GB and others think for some reason it is imagination that one can discern a difference in their system when adding a tweak and removing it. I'm saying your argument is NOT valid because I am capable of knowing if something improves or changes my system's sound whether it be a tweak or another piece of gear. It's quite a stretch actually for you to say there's no effect and it's some one's imagination. This is an insult and applying your logic across the board,, if I can't discern differences in my system from tweaks or other components, then how is my hearing going to work to tune and instrument. I think the operative word in my post was "by ear". There's no test measurements to look at. So to break it down further for grad students, when tuning a guitar by ear it's just you and the guitar, you turn a key and LISTEN whether the string is getting closer to in tune. When evaluating a tweak, you LISTEN to the system, stop, insert tweak, LISTEN again to see if any difference. Use of one's hearing either works or it don't, you can't say it works for some things but stops and imagination kicks in when trying a tweak. So keep your mind closed, live your life believing nothing exists unless you can measure and stay in your ignorant bliss.

On entry level systems like Pioneer and JBL I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to hear much difference, there's a definite resolution deficit. Nor would I expect some one with that system to buy $300.00 speaker connects which cost more than the receiver. P Sky did have some what of a point about system equality. I believe I mentioned in an earlier post that a system would have to have the resolution or ability to allow the listener to tell if any improvements were made. This is one of the big reasons this is not a yes/no question. It's something that has to be tried. On the other hand to sit there with an entry level system and tell me something definitely don't exist is just stupid. However, I allowed my argument to broaden, even a modest system such as Pioneer can benefit from a power product, which is what the original question was about. Unfortunately, power products that make a significant difference are not cheap. Even Monster has 3 levels of filtering and in most instances you won't get your money worth until you buy into that 3rd level. And even that will depend on your house's wiring, your power company and what's plugged into your wall outlets. It could be that a person don't have the need for the power product, they're lucky, but it's possible. That's why you have to try it, if you can't tell a difference then only an idiot would go ahead and buy it.

[dingus]

D, I think you posted it on the speaker wire thread. It was the one showing length of wire and what gauge you should use not to effect impedance.
ah, right. that was intended to be used as a primer, a starting point for folks to work from, not to be taken as gospel.

[emorphien]

It's quite a stretch actually for you to say there's no effect and it's some one's imagination.
Not at all really. In fact in situations as subjective as this it might be the more reasonable explanation. It's not that many tweaks cannot help, it's that many people have successfully convinced themselves that things that are impossible due to simple physics have profound effects. That's not the golden ear, that's ignorance. And nothing more.

Humans are not infallible beings, our senses can be confused, and we're exceptionally good at convincing ourselves of things that cannot be. It is easy to prove that the tuning of an instrument is well within the threshold of trained ears, but so far little has successfully shown the same for many audio tweaks.

And certainly don't think that people who share the opinions I do and say similar things have not had the opportunity to audition these tweaks on systems costing tens of thousands of dollars. Statements from such people saying they heard no difference are no less valid as opinions as yours saying you can hear the difference. And neither one is enough to prove whether or not the tweak actually does make a difference.

[pixelthis]

D, I think you posted it on the speaker wire thread. It was the one showing length of wire and what gauge you should use not to effect impedance.

Pix, give me the contact info, I will take anyone's DBT. Why would you spend $100.00 on a power strip when you can get one for $10.00? Like I said, cables and power products are the same as any other component, if we can't trust ourselves to evaluate them, then we can't be trusted to evaluate anything. So save a bunch of money and forget the hobby all together because humans are not capable of discerning changes in sound. Those guys who tune their guitar by ear have a hell of an imagination.

I already had a 100$ monster "strip" but one day I saw one of their triagular honkin metal
strips (retail 199$) and it had no price, price check was 99$!
So I grabbed it, opportunity presented itself.
I have gotten a lot of praise about this dingus, everybody thinks it looks cool.
But affect the sound? No reason why it should, but it is exelent protection for my system.
Now mr p, you know my respect for you, but we live in different camps, and as for peruvian and his perfect pitch, not having a discerning ear has always been the mantra
of those who depend more on imagination than science in selecting gear, but my hearing has always been exelent, I can (barely) tell the difference between 128kbs and 320kbs,
wanting to hear sound in its entirety was the reason I got into this (it was pre-video, not even VCRS) but being of somewhat limited means I have never been able to indulge in such thing as silver cables, power cords, etc, would have if I could hear any difference
but have never really been able to, so I invest my dough in such things as new players,
better cables (which can improve your system, which isn't always the same as improving the sound) speker stands, etc.
Power cords, conditioners, are the latest marketing gimmick, we've gotten along fine for decades without these "improvements", the latest idea from the marketing dept.
Detachable power cords are a good idea for various reasons though, but as long as your cord is the proper guage thats all you need.
I guess decades of listening to some nice gear with the dinkiest power cords has made me somewhat leery of the whole notion of changing out a cord, and since I havent been able to tell the diff in any system with this "improvement" I'll pass:1:

[Donzel]

Here is my experience with power conditioners. I had a Monster 1000 - I added a dedicated 20 amp line, a ps audio outlet, replaced the Monster with a Wiremold power tap, and the sound improved measurably - my dynamic and resolution - on my Magnepan 1.6, Tandberg int. amp, and Rega- Apollo cd player. The electrician who added the dedicated line is also and audiophile, and with a/b comparison - noticed more detail in the Diana Krall cd. I have a home - hardly anything in appliances except a refrig - probably a different situation from a large city or an apartment. I had another speaker system plugged into a ungrounded outlet for 40 years - same location - no problem with surges or lightening.

[notphilmitchell]

I am using a MonsterPower HTS 2500 in my living room. I don't have very high end stuff (Onkyo 606, Denon 2200, Toshiba 37" LCD, and a Toshiba HDDVDA200?) but wanted some protection and a place to plug everything in to. I got it for about $100 from Amazon so I kind of view it as an expensive power strip. I don't really know if it does anything special but I like the way it looks and think the VU meter on the front is cool. I thought it was interesting that the voltage varies throughout the day.

My stuff downstairs is comparable. I use a $50 Monster Power power strip. When I finished the basement I ran a dedicated 20 Amp circuit just for the TV/Stereo stuff with the thought that I might add separate amps later.

[pixelthis]

I am using a MonsterPower HTS 2500 in my living room. I don't have very high end stuff (Onkyo 606, Denon 2200, Toshiba 37" LCD, and a Toshiba HDDVDA200?) but wanted some protection and a place to plug everything in to. I got it for about $100 from Amazon so I kind of view it as an expensive power strip. I don't really know if it does anything special but I like the way it looks and think the VU meter on the front is cool. I thought it was interesting that the voltage varies throughout the day.

My stuff downstairs is comparable. I use a $50 Monster Power power strip. When I finished the basement I ran a dedicated 20 Amp circuit just for the TV/Stereo stuff with the thought that I might add separate amps later.
Running a dedicated power circuit is probably the best thing you could
do.
I have a monster strip also and they are good, mine picked up a ground fault problem that I had no idea about, and they are about all you need, really.:1:

[elapsed]

Running a dedicated power circuit is probably the best thing you could
do.
I'll agree with pixie and donzel on this one, if you have the ability to install a dedicated mains spur for your rig, the potential for improvement is staggering!

cheers,
elapsed