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Kam
10-03-2007, 10:22 AM
Let me just start out by saynig Gene Kelly is a STUD. I had never seen this before, finally rented it and checked it out and holy cow, what a genius movie! LOVED IT!

As some of you know, i am a HUGE jackie chan fan and i always knew he was influenced by gene kelly and charlie chaplin, but to see gene kelly in this movie and see how obvious those influences are now on jackie is incredible.

Aside from the ridiculous dance numbers where these guys are serious badasses in their moves, the storyline and editing and special effects are incredible for a 1952 movie. The long extended takes and camera movements are just breathtaking, not to mention the set designs and art direction. WOW. seriously what a beautiful movie!

So if any of the regs here have committed the same atrocity as i had in not seeing this movie, bump it up to the top of your rental queue! I'm going out to buy it next. :)

PeruvianSkies
10-03-2007, 11:26 AM
Let me just start out by saynig Gene Kelly is a STUD. I had never seen this before, finally rented it and checked it out and holy cow, what a genius movie! LOVED IT!

As some of you know, i am a HUGE jackie chan fan and i always knew he was influenced by gene kelly and charlie chaplin, but to see gene kelly in this movie and see how obvious those influences are now on jackie is incredible.

Aside from the ridiculous dance numbers where these guys are serious badasses in their moves, the storyline and editing and special effects are incredible for a 1952 movie. The long extended takes and camera movements are just breathtaking, not to mention the set designs and art direction. WOW. seriously what a beautiful movie!

So if any of the regs here have committed the same atrocity as i had in not seeing this movie, bump it up to the top of your rental queue! I'm going out to buy it next. :)

Indeed a true classic, it begins to lose some steam towards the end a bit, but the first half of the movie really pumps along quite well and I love the way it highlights the 'talkies' as well. Plus the GOOD MORNING dance routine is just insane as is MOSES SUPPOSES.

Kam
10-03-2007, 12:32 PM
even the fight scene in the b/w 'silent pic' they are watching the premier of is awesome. aside from the obvious sword-under-the-arm thrusts, the rest of that scene has some great choreography! even has him doing the 'kick-up' move!

PeruvianSkies
10-03-2007, 01:44 PM
even the fight scene in the b/w 'silent pic' they are watching the premier of is awesome. aside from the obvious sword-under-the-arm thrusts, the rest of that scene has some great choreography! even has him doing the 'kick-up' move!

Have you seen AN AMERICAN IN PARIS? If you enjoyed SINGIN' IN THE RAIN you will probably equally enjoy AN AMERICAN IN PARIS.

Woochifer
10-03-2007, 05:51 PM
You're so right about the cues that Jackie took from Gene Kelly. Kelly was more athletic than Fred Astaire, and the choreography is very much akin to how Jackie uses his athleticism in choreographing fight scenes.

Jackie's other major influence is Buster Keaton, because of the physical daring in his stuntwork and ingenious approach to physical comedy. If you watch Keaton's classic silent films like Safety Last and The General, you'll see how Jackie has few contemporaries in how he mixes extreme stuntwork with slapstick comedy. Both of the Project A movies in particular are total tributes to Keaton.

Jackie, Buster, and Gene also share similarities in that each of them directed and choreographed their own action scenes. No need for quick cut editing or close-in shots to hide the presence of a stunt/dance double, since all of these guys did their own stunts and relied on long wide angle shots to let the audience harbor no doubt as to who/what they're watching on screen.

As far as Singin' In The Rain, it's hard to believe that when it came out, the movie garnered mixed reviews and was a box office disappointment. It was also unfavorably compared to American In Paris, which came out the same year, got great reviews, swept the Oscars, and attracted a much larger audience. But, as the years have passed, Singin' In The Rain's reputation has skyrocketed and now far surpassed American In Paris. This year, it moved up to #5 on the latest AFI Top 100, and is almost universally mentioned in any discussion of the greatest musicals.

It's a deceptively smart movie, because on the surface it seems so simple. But, it works on many levels. It might be a great musical, but it's a brilliantly satirical look at the entire Hollywood studio system and celebrity press of that era. Abstracting it even further, it's also a character study on people coming to grips with how their livelihood is about to change because of technology.

As an aside, would you believe that Debbie Reynolds had minimal dance training before landing the lead role (and she was only 19 years old!)? Apparently, she had a very hard time because Gene Kelly was a notorious perfectionist and tyrannical towards his costars (again, very similar to the insane demands that Jackie makes of his stunt team). In one of the documentaries, Reynolds said that she thought for years that Gene Kelly hated her!

The DVD (the two-disc set) is worth buying because it comes from a well done frame-by-frame restoration (presumably the HD-DVD also used the same master), and includes two great documentaries -- one covering the making-of Singin' in the Rain and the other profiling Arthur Freed who produced many of the classic MGM musicals (this gave me a very long list of other musicals to watch).

All in all though, this is just a great unapologetically happy movie.

Kam
10-04-2007, 07:00 AM
Jackie's other major influence is Buster Keaton, because of the physical daring in his stuntwork and ingenious approach to physical comedy. If you watch Keaton's classic silent films like Safety Last and The General, you'll see how Jackie has few contemporaries in how he mixes extreme stuntwork with slapstick comedy. Both of the Project A movies in particular are total tributes to Keaton.

Jackie, Buster, and Gene also share similarities in that each of them directed and choreographed their own action scenes. No need for quick cut editing or close-in shots to hide the presence of a stunt/dance double, since all of these guys did their own stunts and relied on long wide angle shots to let the audience harbor no doubt as to who/what they're watching on screen.

what i loved about jackie is that slapstick 'temper' to the violence. and he's talked about that exact aspect of what he does. how he incorporates comedy into nearly every violent act, ala when he punches a guy he doesn't show how cool he is, but how much he hurt his own hand in the process, shaking it, making his trademark faces, etc.

and those long takes are still amazing, seeing them from gene kelly to their latest iteration in jackie's work are simply phenomenal AND incredibly incredibly difficult to pull off. hence why everyone else uses the 30cuts/second method of action. it's a lot easier to convey action and excitment through cutting then through an unblinking, long, unapologetic take that puts ALL your choreography under scrutiny.

best way to cover bad choreography is to cut around it, zoom in, close up action.

Woochifer
10-04-2007, 03:28 PM
what i loved about jackie is that slapstick 'temper' to the violence. and he's talked about that exact aspect of what he does. how he incorporates comedy into nearly every violent act, ala when he punches a guy he doesn't show how cool he is, but how much he hurt his own hand in the process, shaking it, making his trademark faces, etc.

I recall Jackie saying that he arrived on adding those slapstick elements to his fight scenes by imagining how Bruce Lee would do it, and then do the exact opposite. Where Bruce would duck away from a punch, Jackie would go into it ... where Bruce would hit and hold the position, Jackie would hit and pull back his hand reeling in pain. The fight scene with the chili peppers from Project A, Part 2 is a perfect example of an anti-Bruce fight scene -- Jackie's getting beaten up until he maces his adversaries with chili peppers, and even after he starts beating up on the other two guys after incapacitating them, he's still in bad mouth because his mouth is burning up!


and those long takes are still amazing, seeing them from gene kelly to their latest iteration in jackie's work are simply phenomenal AND incredibly incredibly difficult to pull off. hence why everyone else uses the 30cuts/second method of action. it's a lot easier to convey action and excitment through cutting then through an unblinking, long, unapologetic take that puts ALL your choreography under scrutiny.

best way to cover bad choreography is to cut around it, zoom in, close up action.

Those long shots also take out the use of safety nets! Buster Keaton's stunt work (BTW, I forgot that Safety Last was a Harold Lloyd film!) had that same element of danger to it.

I know filmmakers who would never dream of doing these kinds of long takes on an action scene precisely because it reveals so much, particularly the limitations of the production and/or actors. Even with these kinds of long panning scenes, Jackie and Gene would spend weeks on end perfecting them. Few people can consistently pull off these kinds of scenes, and those two clearly can.

The longest continuous shot I can recall from an action pic is the hallway shootout during the hospital seige in Hard Boiled. It was over 3 minutes long, and incredibly complex in the pyrotechnics and gun choreography needed. It's ironic that Woo would use that kind of long continuous shot considering how heavily his films use quick cut edits, slow-mo, etc.

Another one of Jackie's wonderful trademarks is how he films his showcase stunts using multiple cameras, and then proceeds to repeat showing that stunt using every angle in the movie!

PeruvianSkies
10-09-2007, 09:06 PM
Classic!

Kam
10-10-2007, 07:05 AM
Another one of Jackie's wonderful trademarks is how he films his showcase stunts using multiple cameras, and then proceeds to repeat showing that stunt using every angle in the movie!

i don't know if it's the first time he did it, but the first time i saw it was the clocktower fall from projectA. and the thing that got me as i watched it over and over again, was that it was MULTIPLE takes!!! not just multiple camera angles. and he put the other takes in the repeat-showing.... he did that more than once!!!

also, i think the longest take i've seen, i have to check it, is from the latest tony jaa movie (the one with the elephants) where he goes into the club and proceeds to, video-game-style, walk up the curving stairway to the top floor and beats the crap out of everyone on the way up in one long steadycam shot.

PeruvianSkies
10-10-2007, 10:30 AM
i don't know if it's the first time he did it, but the first time i saw it was the clocktower fall from projectA. and the thing that got me as i watched it over and over again, was that it was MULTIPLE takes!!! not just multiple camera angles. and he put the other takes in the repeat-showing.... he did that more than once!!!

also, i think the longest take i've seen, i have to check it, is from the latest tony jaa movie (the one with the elephants) where he goes into the club and proceeds to, video-game-style, walk up the curving stairway to the top floor and beats the crap out of everyone on the way up in one long steadycam shot.

Long takes....

The longest one that I have seen and I am aware of is from a movie called RUSSIAN ARK (2002), which the entire film is one continuous shot...for about 90-minutes. There is one cut towards the end.

http://www.bta.it/img/a0/07/bta00708.jpg


The opening 3 minutes of MISSION TO MARS is also one amazing long take as well that is well-setup for sure.

Kam
10-10-2007, 10:50 AM
Long takes....

The longest one that I have seen and I am aware of is from a movie called RUSSIAN ARK (2002), which the entire film is one continuous shot...for about 90-minutes. There is one cut towards the end.
The opening 3 minutes of MISSION TO MARS is also one amazing long take as well that is well-setup for sure.

well i think wooch and me were referring to uncut fight choreography scenes in long takes, generally in the 3-5 min range just because that's all that's capable of being done straight though physically, as well as technically. film mags run in 400 or 1,000 ft rolls, which can give you 11mins or about 28 mins each.

rope, is actually the first 'uncut' one take movie, where hitchcock used 11 min long takes edited together with 'invisible' cuts. russian ark, not to take away from its own accomplishment, did it one long hour and half take by shooting it highdef direct to a massive tape drive.

PeruvianSkies
10-10-2007, 10:52 PM
well i think wooch and me were referring to uncut fight choreography scenes in long takes, generally in the 3-5 min range just because that's all that's capable of being done straight though physically, as well as technically. film mags run in 400 or 1,000 ft rolls, which can give you 11mins or about 28 mins each.

rope, is actually the first 'uncut' one take movie, where hitchcock used 11 min long takes edited together with 'invisible' cuts. russian ark, not to take away from its own accomplishment, did it one long hour and half take by shooting it highdef direct to a massive tape drive.

Do you realize how hard it would be (regardless of film format) to shoot the sequences in RUSSIAN ARK with all the actors hitting the mark perfectly and all the lighting continuity and such? It's stunning and masterful. Like Hitchcock and many others who are capable of masterful mise-en-scene that we get very little of these days in filmmaking.

Woochifer
10-10-2007, 10:53 PM
i don't know if it's the first time he did it, but the first time i saw it was the clocktower fall from projectA. and the thing that got me as i watched it over and over again, was that it was MULTIPLE takes!!! not just multiple camera angles. and he put the other takes in the repeat-showing.... he did that more than once!!!

The clocktower fall was Jackie's tribute to Harold Lloyd, and there were two total takes. The first take resulted in Jackie getting injured (that was the outtake shot where the last awning did not break and he wound up bouncing off of it, and landed splatto on his side injuring his shoulder). The one shown in the film was the second try, which he successfully executed. The amazing thing about that take was that he performed the stunt (with the cut getting shown from multiple angles) AND remained in character afterwards reciting a few lines afterwards!

Other Chan flicks off-hand that I recall showing stunts repeated from multiple camera angles were Police Story II (when he was leaping from one moving truck to another), Drunken Master II (the scene where he gets thrown into the fire pit), Rumble In The Bronx (the leap from the parking garage onto the balcony IIRC), and IIRC Police Story III: Supercop (the insane leap onto the helicopter rope ladder).

The most famous stunt where he showed the stunt repeatedly from multiple angles was the climactic pole slide from Police Story. That stunt got shown on screen at least four times! There too, Jackie had to complete the stunt and still remain in character to complete the scene. Apparently, while that stunt was successful on screen, apparently it was totally botched. The lights that exploded as Jackie was sliding down the pole were mistakenly lit using direct current, which burned the skin off of Jackie's hands. Amazing that he got injured in that scene, and still completed the take. Jackie also broke his ankle doing a stunt for Rumble In The Bronx, and he still used that shot, even showed the stunt in slow-mo for the final cut where you can clearly see the ankle getting turned the wrong way (ouch!).


also, i think the longest take i've seen, i have to check it, is from the latest tony jaa movie (the one with the elephants) where he goes into the club and proceeds to, video-game-style, walk up the curving stairway to the top floor and beats the crap out of everyone on the way up in one long steadycam shot.

I'm way behind you here - got lots of Tony Jaa to catch up on! Wonder how it compares with the John Woo's scene from Hard Boiled.

Kam
10-11-2007, 07:11 AM
The clocktower fall was Jackie's tribute to Harold Lloyd, and there were two total takes. The first take resulted in Jackie getting injured (that was the outtake shot where the last awning did not break and he wound up bouncing off of it, and landed splatto on his side injuring his shoulder). The one shown in the film was the second try, which he successfully executed. The amazing thing about that take was that he performed the stunt (with the cut getting shown from multiple angles) AND remained in character afterwards reciting a few lines afterwards!

Other Chan flicks off-hand that I recall showing stunts repeated from multiple camera angles were Police Story II (when he was leaping from one moving truck to another), Drunken Master II (the scene where he gets thrown into the fire pit), Rumble In The Bronx (the leap from the parking garage onto the balcony IIRC), and IIRC Police Story III: Supercop (the insane leap onto the helicopter rope ladder).

The most famous stunt where he showed the stunt repeatedly from multiple angles was the climactic pole slide from Police Story. That stunt got shown on screen at least four times! There too, Jackie had to complete the stunt and still remain in character to complete the scene. Apparently, while that stunt was successful on screen, apparently it was totally botched. The lights that exploded as Jackie was sliding down the pole were mistakenly lit using direct current, which burned the skin off of Jackie's hands. Amazing that he got injured in that scene, and still completed the take. Jackie also broke his ankle doing a stunt for Rumble In The Bronx, and he still used that shot, even showed the stunt in slow-mo for the final cut where you can clearly see the ankle getting turned the wrong way (ouch!).



I'm way behind you here - got lots of Tony Jaa to catch up on! Wonder how it compares with the John Woo's scene from Hard Boiled.

tony, imo, is at the screenpresence level that jet li was in lethal weapon4. he's a physical force to be reckoned with... but that's about it. however, that physical force, is unbelievable. the things tony can do are just flat out incredible.

the other major injury stunt i remember from jackie was from Armour of God, when he's escaping the natives and jumps from the cliff through the trees and the outtakes show him getting carried off totally knocked out from the impact through the branches.

i remember the rumble in the bronx outtakes after showing him with the cast on zooming around in the gocart thingy, and then putting a fake 'shoe' cover over his cast, and CONTINUED to film!!

Woochifer
10-11-2007, 12:05 PM
tony, imo, is at the screenpresence level that jet li was in lethal weapon4. he's a physical force to be reckoned with... but that's about it. however, that physical force, is unbelievable. the things tony can do are just flat out incredible.

I did buy The Protector a while ago, but still haven't gotten around to watching it. So, I'll look forward to that.


the other major injury stunt i remember from jackie was from Armour of God, when he's escaping the natives and jumps from the cliff through the trees and the outtakes show him getting carried off totally knocked out from the impact through the branches.

That was the stunt that nearly killed him. Compared to other things he's done, it was a relatively routine stunt, but the tree branch that Jackie dived into broke and he landed head first onto a rock. IIRC, he has a metal plate in his skull because of that injury.


i remember the rumble in the bronx outtakes after showing him with the cast on zooming around in the gocart thingy, and then putting a fake 'shoe' cover over his cast, and CONTINUED to film!!

That's what differentiates Hong Kong from American productions. U.S. movies usually don't use footage where the stuntmen or actors get injured, whereas H.K. movies routinely use scenes that might have caused injuries. In the publicity tour for Rumble In The Bronx, I remember Jackie would routinely brag about how he kept the cameras rolling even after breaking his ankle, and how he did several of the fight scenes while wearing a cast (with that fake shoe cover that you mentioned).