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nightflier
10-02-2007, 01:23 PM
I have an opportunity to purchase two pairs of pre-owned VSA speakers, the VR2s or the VR4-IIs. The price is very attractive, but this will still be the single biggest speaker purchase I will ever have made. I like the VR2s because they are easier to drive (and less expensive), but the VR4s are the kind of speakers I could be happy with for years to come. I also like the fact that they moved back to SoCal, so service, should I ever need it, is local.

But at this price point, 3-5K, there are many other options from Dynaudio, Sonus, and others. Some people have said that VSA speakers are more expensive now than they were before, and others have said that there is better to be had. They certainly ramp up in price pretty fast after you get past the entry-level speakers. This is all well over where I usually window-shop. So my question is this: are VSA speakers a good value?

PeruvianSkies
10-02-2007, 01:27 PM
Wow, I can't comment on those speakers as I have limited experience with them, but if you are in the position to acquire them at a good deal...that makes it highly prospective. I guess a large part of it has to do with what your future plans are as well, will they be in a dedicated setup and what other components do you plan to use, etc etc. This might just throw a monkey wrench in all of your original ideas, but sometimes that is fun too!

Jack in Wilmington
10-02-2007, 02:14 PM
I always say if you have the cash, get what you really want and there will be no second guessing. I myself liked the Dynaudio Focus 220 over the VR2, but the 220 is a much more demanding speaker. But I preferred both the 220 and the VR2 over the Sonus Faber Concerto Domus which is also in the $3 - 5K range.

topspeed
10-02-2007, 02:36 PM
:lol:...hey PS, don't worry about Nightflier's front end. He's got more gear stowed away than Best Buy! Seriously, the man collects equipment like most here collect music or movies. It's sick.



Nightflier,

VR2's can regularly be found on agon for a few bills over $1K. They are excellent speakers and are true full range with extension into the mid 20hz range. Perhaps their most defining trait, as with every VSA speaker I've heard, is their seamless coherence across the spectrum. They rival planars and 'stats in this sense, only with superior dynamics and punch. Kick in a massive soundstage and sweetspot and you have a very good speaker and a killer at the used price.

Which VR4's are you talking about? The original VR4 or the VR4jr (Mk I or Mk II) or VR4sr (Mk I or Mk II)? I've only heard the 4jr, which was an astounding value at it's original price of $4K. Used, they are on agon for between $2 - 2.5K. Take everything I said about the VR2 and add better micro detail and faster bass and you have the 4jr. I have not heard the Mk II's, but I understand Albert changed the drivers and tweaked the xover. To what affect I have no idea.

If you are referring to the original VR4 Gen II's, I would strongly consider these over the VR2's. I haven't heard them personally, but these speakers are pretty legendary. They are so good and the owner base is so rabid that Albert sells an upgrade kit where you send your 4's in to San Diego and he'll upgrade everything to Gen III SE spec, which includes SOTA drivers, Hovland caps, new xover, the whole shebang. If you can get the Gen II's for a reasonable enough price, a few thousand more will get you a wold class speaker that will cure your upgradeitis once and for all. I'm considering the same thing, if I ever get around to building my next rig :rolleyes:

If you want to know more about the Gen II, here's a review. (http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/weaver15.htm)

Hope this helps.

drseid
10-03-2007, 01:39 AM
I have an opportunity to purchase two pairs of pre-owned VSA speakers, the VR2s or the VR4-IIs. The price is very attractive, but this will still be the single biggest speaker purchase I will ever have made. I like the VR2s because they are easier to drive (and less expensive), but the VR4s are the kind of speakers I could be happy with for years to come. I also like the fact that they moved back to SoCal, so service, should I ever need it, is local.

But at this price point, 3-5K, there are many other options from Dynaudio, Sonus, and others. Some people have said that VSA speakers are more expensive now than they were before, and others have said that there is better to be had. They certainly ramp up in price pretty fast after you get past the entry-level speakers. This is all well over where I usually window-shop. So my question is this: are VSA speakers a good value?

I am a big fan of VS speakers in general and highly recommend all but the pricey VR-4 SRs (mk I) that I never could come around to liking after several listens in different settings.

Apart from those, every VS speaker I have heard I have liked or loved (including their top of the line $150K/pr. VR-11s that are my favorite speakers -- period).

The VR-2s as Top has said are good all-around contenders at their price point. I like the VR-4jrs a lot better in the line though if you can swing their price tag used (which should be easily in your range)... I think you will find they definitely compete with similarly priced speakers from Dynaudio, and the like.

Of course in the 3-5K range there is a lot of good competition out there too...

My own Linbrook Signature System speakers can be found used in the 4K/pr range... and Acoustic Zen has the Adagios that sell used in the mid twos to maybe 3K/pr.

At the lower end of your range to compete with the VR-2s, Sonus Faber's old version of the Grand Piano (not the current Domus series) is called the Grand Piano Home, and they go for about $1800 used on Audiogon. They don't have the bass extension of the VR-2s (although they get low enough for me), but man, that midrange of theirs is addictive and they are not too finicky with front-end electronics (I heard them sound fantastic even powered by a Denon 3508 receiver).

All of this said, I am in *no* way trying to disuade you from going for the VS speakers as they are incredible sounding and Albert is a genius speaker designer. I am sure you would be extremely happy with them.

Good luck.

---Dave

basite
10-03-2007, 07:22 AM
I will further comment on my opinion about VS audio this sunday (after the hifi show) but last time I heard a pair of VS VR4SR (new ones), driven by way to expensive KR audio gear and even more expensive Pluto gear (and stuff like that, don't remember all the gear anymore)

I wasn't that impressed, they sounded good (even great) but I more liked other speakers in that price range, like some of the 'bigger' totems, or dynaudios, or even focals, martin logans, thiels...

look around first, if you have the time, check out other new stuff...

triangle just has a new speaker line, the Genese series, which look & sound very good
and try monitor audio too, you might just find them more to your likings...
and maybe there are zingalis in that pricerange too...

Keep them spinning,
Bert.

nightflier
10-03-2007, 03:32 PM
Well if there are Zingalis, I'll take those over VSA. I know it sounds silly, but Zingalis just seem to be a class above, kind of like Avantgarde, and you have to love the sensitivity of those horn-loaded speakers. Imagine hooking those up to a $40 Tripath amp and still getting decent sound. There's not a lot of speakers that can do that. I'm really on a low energy-consumption kick right now, so I do want to try and stay in the green zone, so to speak.

That said, I should perhaps clarify. I was talking about the VR-4 JR Mk II, the newest pair. I have been put in contact with someone who has both those and the VR2s and wants to get rid of one pair, the VR4s only if the price is right, which may not be as attractive compared to what I might find on audiogon. But I do get to audition them in his home with any music I want.

What I also like about the VR2 is that rear-facing tweeter. I know it sounds gimmicky, but I really am curious to hear what it does. I have horrible room acoustic issues to tame - increasing the soundstage and depth is one way to buy some happiness. I also expect to one day, if we move, get my large stereo-only room back and I will want a speaker that will be just as well suited there. I've tried a lot of speakers in the $1000 range, and I really was underwhelmed. I think it's time to crank it up to $2-3K. If I can find a well-maintained used speaker, then that would put it just in the VR-4 JR Mk II range.

VSA is local and they are at the top of the list. My criteria are:

- clarity (I want to hear as much of the recording as possible and I have warm equipment)
- Sensitivity (gota do my part for the environment)
- Power (it's got to be able to play loud - not that I will be doing that often, but I consider that part of confirming good engineering)
- If possible, real wood construction (I just don't have faith that vinyl-covered MDF has the same properties).

I just have this nagging feeling that I'm missing something. I've heard much better outside of my own home, so I know there is better. I just have to find it.

topspeed
10-03-2007, 07:45 PM
Depending on your room of course, the Ambience Recovery Driver on the back of VSA speakers really does work. It's tuneable, so you can tweak to your heart's desire until you find the the depth you really want.

The 4jr Mk II is dangerously close to the price of the Usher Dancer 8571, a speaker that could very well be superior (again, haven't heard the Mk II). The jr is a very impressive speaker soundwise, but from a visual presence standpoint, it can't hold a candle to the Dancer. Certainly, it would be worth auditioning if you're going to be playing in the price range.
http://www.audioconcept.se/img/reklam/CP-8571-II-small.jpg

drseid
10-04-2007, 02:11 AM
I was talking about the VR-4 JR Mk II, the newest pair.

What I also like about the VR2 is that rear-facing tweeter. I know it sounds gimmicky, but I really am curious to hear what it does. I have horrible room acoustic issues to tame - increasing the soundstage and depth is one way to buy some happiness. I also expect to one day, if we move, get my large stereo-only room back and I will want a speaker that will be just as well suited there. I've tried a lot of speakers in the $1000 range, and I really was underwhelmed. I think it's time to crank it up to $2-3K. If I can find a well-maintained used speaker, then that would put it just in the VR-4 JR Mk II range.

VSA is local and they are at the top of the list. My criteria are:

- clarity (I want to hear as much of the recording as possible and I have warm equipment)
- Sensitivity (gota do my part for the environment)
- Power (it's got to be able to play loud - not that I will be doing that often, but I consider that part of confirming good engineering)
- If possible, real wood construction (I just don't have faith that vinyl-covered MDF has the same properties).

I just have this nagging feeling that I'm missing something. I've heard much better outside of my own home, so I know there is better. I just have to find it.

Based on your new price parameters and sound goals I definitely think that you would gain by auditioning the Adagios after hearing the 4jrs, if anything for reference.

I heard the two speakers in the same room on the same equipment (both Cary solid state and tube separates with a high-end Consonance Droplet CD player as the front-end) and found the two a virtual tossup to my ears, but for different reasons...

The 4jrs got lower, and had a slight warm bias that maybe smoothed out the sound a hair, but never muzzled the instruments. The speakers were relatively small when you consider the low bass output they are capable of, and would be at home in medium to large sized rooms. Alison Krauss and Union Station "Live" sounded almost as good as it does on my Linbrook System (and that is a very high compliment, I assure you). I was quite impressed. Where these really shined though was when we put on Fiona Apple's "Tidal" CD... The 4jrs covered the full spectrum of Apple's voice, along with the instruments down to the low piano keys extremely well and seemed at home with this kind of music. Tidal uses some great sound ranges, and the JRs had no problem with handling the CD (as many speakers do).

The Adagios by contrast, were tall and elegant looking speakers and used what appeared to be a transmission line design to increase their low-end sound. This bottom-end was also quite impressive, but did not match the 4Jrs. What the Adagios exceled in was bass and midrange clarity. I played a jazz CD from Erin Bode called "Over and Over" (highly recomended, BTW) and the dealers and I were shocked at how good it sounded on them -- they now use this CD as their reference CD for the Adagios (with good reason) -- the resolution on this CD and the Adagios playing it is incredible. The ribbon tweeter did have one brief moment when I played a track from the Cirque du Soleil soundtrack "O" on them where I thought it sounded a hair too pronounced. That said, when we switched to a mixture of solid state and tubes, this went away. I would say the Adagios are a pretty neutral speaker overall that matches well with tube hybrid brands like Jolida and Vincent (the latter was also used at the dealer).

As for my verdict -- I really did find the two pretty much a draw... but for different strengths. I think the JRs were more amp friendly and would blend better with most systems already in place. The Adagios were more finicky, but when paired with the right electronics they showed off a resolution that can play with the best of them. I probably would buy the Adagios if I *had* to choose if I were building a system from scratch based on my own set of preferences and their specific strengths, but I honestly don't think one speaker was really better than the other -- both are easy recommendations, IMO. Neither are super-efficient (I know this is one of your requirements), but neither are inneficient either (about average on both).

As for used pricing:

Certainly better deals are to be had on the VR4jr. Mk Is that sound quite similar to the IIs IMO (they seem to go for $2K/pr. before negotiation on AudioGon). Not many mk IIs on AudioGon as they are relatively new still.

Adagios are not easy to find, but there are a couple up for grabs on the Gon for about $2.5K/pr. so I guess these also would be in your range.

In any case, I am interested to hear your own opinions once you hear the 4jrs soon.

Good luck,

---Dave