Need help on amp basics

[wchek]

This is my first thread in this section. I am not an audiophile but i do like good quality sound. I am planning on setting up a system for both music and HT with a initial budget of $4k.

I know for a fact that if i were to setup both music & 5.1 with $4k i would end up with an average system. So i want to do it in 2 phases. I am still undecided whether to go music first then HT or the reverse.

To help me decide i need to know what equipments to get to achieve my ultimate system, then only i can plan out the purchase.

Can anyone help to explain :
- Is pre/pro = AV receiver = surround processor?
- Is integrated amp = pre-amp + power amp?
- How should these amps be connected from source to speaker? Are there many different configurations?
- What is the best setup (assuming money is no object) for both music & HT sharing the same pair of main speakers?

For speakers I have auditioned Sonus Faber Concertino Domus (bookshelf), Monitor Audio RS8 (floorstander) and i must say i like the Concertino more. I heard SF is pretty easy to drive so I have more choices of amps to choose. Any suggestion which amp is good?

Thanks :)

[shane2468]

Hello,

Sorry I Am Not The Right Person To Advice You On This Case I'm Afraid.
If Was In The Same Situation I Would Go For Music 2 Channel,then Build My System Up Little Little.

Respect.

Shane.

[nightflier]

"Is pre/pro = AV receiver = surround processor?"

The receiver typically includes an amp section, whereas the other two require a seperate amp. Many receivers can accommodate a separate amp as well although you'd have two logical amps and only be using one.

"Is integrated amp = pre-amp + power amp?"

Yes, theoretically.

"How should these amps be connected from source to speaker? Are there many different configurations?"

Yes, probably too many to list. But the most basic would be: source (CD) > preamp > amp > speakers.

"What is the best setup (assuming money is no object) for both music & HT sharing the same pair of main speakers?"

That's not an easy question to answer. It is both subjective and a matter of how many components you have. Generally speaking, your best results will be the from the simplest setup using quality components. It's somewhat of a personal philosophy of mine but for me, the fewer buttons, the better.

" For speakers I have auditioned Sonus Faber Concertino Domus (bookshelf), Monitor Audio RS8 (floorstander) and i must say i like the Concertino more. I heard SF is pretty easy to drive so I have more choices of amps to choose. Any suggestion which amp is good?"

You have thousands of choices, so there's no easy answer. Most good amps of 50W or more will drive just about most speakers. There are many factors such as amperage ratings, THD, S/N that may be just as important to you after you hear some more units.

The speakers you listed are about as different as you can get. The price may be a factor for you, but that shouldn't be your only purchasing decision. Compare the SF with other bookshelves with the same Monitor - Tweeter configuration that is approximately the same size. The differences will be very different from what you heard comparing to the Monitor Audios.

The key is to listen to as much as you can, preferably in your own home with your own music. Much of this depends on your own preferences. See if you can borrow some speakers from friends or if manufacturers will let you audition speakers for a little while. I know from personal experience that Magnepan, Ohm, Aperion, SVS, AV123 and Axiom do, but I have to believe that most of them do.

This is a fun hobby. Welcome.

[Mr Peabody]

You really do have several ways to go and many brands to choose from. Doing some listening is a good idea.

If you want the best of both worlds, music and HT, there are a couple of basic configurations you can use though.

1. Get a preamp processor and separate power amp

2. Set up a 2 channel system but make sure the preamp, or integrated, has a "bypass" feature. This feature will allow you to connect the front/main preamp outs of a HT receiver or preamp to it, an passing it through to the power amp. So both 2-channel and HT fronts will use the same amplification and speakers.

3. You could still buy a receiver but buy one built by a higher quality manufacturer who would put more emphasis on good sound for 2-channel, like Arcam, Rotel, possibly NAD.

Did your $4k budget include electronics and speakers? If so, you should either start with 2-channel and build from there, or think about #3. High quality separates will cost, at least $4k for processor/power amp, if you are lucky.

I've got a Krell integrated with the bypass feature I was talking about and a Krell cdp I'd be willing to sell. Some day I need to get serious and post it on Audiogon. Just email if interested.

[wchek]

You really do have several ways to go and many brands to choose from. Doing some listening is a good idea.

If you want the best of both worlds, music and HT, there are a couple of basic configurations you can use though.

1. Get a preamp processor and separate power amp

2. Set up a 2 channel system but make sure the preamp, or integrated, has a "bypass" feature. This feature will allow you to connect the front/main preamp outs of a HT receiver or preamp to it, an passing it through to the power amp. So both 2-channel and HT fronts will use the same amplification and speakers.

3. You could still buy a receiver but buy one built by a higher quality manufacturer who would put more emphasis on good sound for 2-channel, like Arcam, Rotel, possibly NAD.

Did your $4k budget include electronics and speakers? If so, you should either start with 2-channel and build from there, or think about #3. High quality separates will cost, at least $4k for processor/power amp, if you are lucky.

I've got a Krell integrated with the bypass feature I was talking about and a Krell cdp I'd be willing to sell. Some day I need to get serious and post it on Audiogon. Just email if interested.

#1, is Yamaha RX-V861 a pre-amp processor?

#2, Do you mean the following configuration

Source --> Preamp --> HT Receiver --> Power Amp --> Speaker

Bypass : Preamp to Power Amp (skip Receiver)

#3, I had a discussion with the audio shop today about going separates or receiver, and apparently he thinks that with my budget, it is best to get a high quality receiver for both music and HT. Optional upgrade would be a power amp if I can up the budget. I want a system that will last me long enough without frequent upgrading, so i think getting good quality equipment one at a time is a good idea.

They recommended the high end receiver of Yamaha RX-Z9 (demo unit available at $2200), RX-V3800 or RX-V1800. I haven't auditioned any of them except the lower end RX-V861.

Any comments anyone?

[GMichael]

The RX-V861 is an A/V receiver. It includes a processor, tuner and amps all rolled into one unit. It doesn't do a bad job, but having separates would sound better if you have the cash. It can also be used as just a processor if you add external amps. You would not need a processor and a receiver. If you get a processor you will need amps. (but not a receiver)

Receiver = tuner, processor & amps
Integrated amp = processor & amps (no tuner)
A processor takes the signal from your source (CD, turntable, DVD player etc) and sends it to the amps. It controls volume, balance, type of decoding etc.
The amps amplify the signal and sends it to your speakers.

What speakers you pick out will dictate whether or not separates will make a big difference or not.



Source-processor-amp-speakers

[GMichael]

#3, I had a discussion with the audio shop today about going separates or receiver, and apparently he thinks that with my budget, it is best to get a high quality receiver for both music and HT. Optional upgrade would be a power amp if I can up the budget. I want a system that will last me long enough without frequent upgrading, so i think getting good quality equipment one at a time is a good idea.

They recommended the high end receiver of Yamaha RX-Z9 (demo unit available at $2200), RX-V3800 or RX-V1800. I haven't auditioned any of them except the lower end RX-V861.

Any comments anyone?

Pick out your speakers first. Then you'll know how much power you will need. The RX-VZ9 is an older model. It's very nice but doesn't have HDMI wich you may want if you go 1080p HD down the road. The RX-V1800 is very nice and would drive most speakers well. You could always add a 2 channel amp later if need be (as they said) The 3800 isn't much different than the 1800. The 10 more watts won't mean much in real life. Save the 3 or 4 hundred $ difference.

[wchek]

Thank you GMichael for your advice.

Of all the speakers i have auditioned so far (Sonus Faber Concertino Domus, Monitor Audio RS-8, AE Evo 3), i like the Fabers most even though it is a bookshelf. I am now thinking of the Concertino + Velodyne VX-10 sub combo (because the SF floorstanders are out of my budget + i heard bookshelves produce better clarity + my own experience when comparing concertino and RS-8).

I understand that the SF are pretty easy to drive so I have lots of choice for receiver / amp. I am going to audition ProAc Reference 8 mains and REL sub when time allows, but i think the ProAc are more difficult to drive.

Is the Yamaha RX-V1800 good enough for me? Would the sound quality improve a lot if I add a Exposure 2010 power amp?

[Mr Peabody]

Me personally, if I was spending that kind of money, I wouldn't be bringing home a Yamaha. Check it out but before you buy compare it with an Arcam, Rotel or NAD. These companies may lack a few bells & whistles but they tend to put more emphasis on sound quality. It's just my opinion but it's stretching things a bit to call the Yamaha a "high end" receiver.

Actually, Arcam has a preamp/processor for $2,500.00 that is very good. Rotel makes a preamp processor that was around $1,600.00 but I haven't kept up with model progressions. It used to be a big bang for the buck. Their digital amp is also getting a lot of good talk. You could get the Rotel separates and match them with B&W or Paradigm for a great system. Arcam builds some killer power amps, their separates may go slightly beyond your budget. Rotel might work because I'm fairly certain they still make a good budget preamp/processor, it used to be the rsp-1068.

Using the bypass, you would basically have two systems that share the main speakers. Let's use an integrated for stereo. You'd plug your cd player into that along with any other source for stereo. Let's say for budget sake we buy a receiver for HT, you plug your DVD and other video sources into that. Your mains are connected to the integrated, the center and rears to the receiver. But how do I use the mains in HT you ask. You go from your receivers preamp output and connect that into the integrated amps theater bypass. When watching a movie both the integrated and receiver will be on but the signal meant for your mains will go from your receiver into the integrated. Once it reaches the integrated it bypasses the preamp and goes directly to the power section and out to your speakers. You are basically using the integrated amp as a slave to the receiver for HT. When listening to stereo, you just have the integrated on and do your thing.

[Mr Peabody]

Sonus Faber are very good. You wouldn't hear their full potential from a Yamaha receiver.

Keep in mind when you are thinking of adding an amp to a receiver, you are still limited by the receiver's preamp section. Although this is a popular thing to do, and an outboard amp will be some what of an improvement, it's not really worth the money a higher quality amp would cost. There's only so much stuff you can stuff into a receiver and have it cost a certain price. You will yield overall better sound quality for music from either a separate preamp processor, or separate 2 channel system.

One other thing, when you are hooking every thing into the receiver, if you use digital connections the digital to analog conversion will be done by the receiver. You can generally get better 2 channel sound from a quality cd player than you can from a receiver's internal DAC.

You really have to ask yourself where you listening will be done most, HT or stereo.

[wchek]

Keep in mind when you are thinking of adding an amp to a receiver, you are still limited by the receiver's preamp section. Although this is a popular thing to do, and an outboard amp will be some what of an improvement, it's not really worth the money a higher quality amp would cost. There's only so much stuff you can stuff into a receiver and have it cost a certain price. You will yield overall better sound quality for music from either a separate preamp processor, or separate 2 channel system.

One other thing, when you are hooking every thing into the receiver, if you use digital connections the digital to analog conversion will be done by the receiver. You can generally get better 2 channel sound from a quality cd player than you can from a receiver's internal DAC.

You really have to ask yourself where you listening will be done most, HT or stereo.

Thanks Mr Peabody, your comments really helped me in understanding the whole picture much better!

Seems like a receiver is really not a good idea if i want good sound for both music & HT. So if I use a pre/pro like the Arcam AVP700 or Rotel RSP-1068, the system will give me reasonably good sound without adding a integrated or power amp?

What would be the ideal setup in this case?
1) pre/pro + power amp
2) pre/pro + integrated
3) pre/pro only

The AVP700 would stain my budget quite a bit so I think for now the RSP-1068 is the way to go. Does the AVP700 really worth the $700 extra?

One thing about the 1068 is that it has been out in the market for a while now and i'm not sure if the technologies (especially the decoding formats) are still the latest or going to obsolete soon. Also I didn't see any HDMI input/output on the backpanel drawing.

[GMichael]

What would be the ideal setup in this case?
1) pre/pro + power amp
2) pre/pro + integrated
3) pre/pro only

.

1) This would work great.
2) An intgrated amp icludes a processor (pre/pro). You don't really need two.
3) No amp? ='s no sound.


I agree that 99% of the receivers out there are below the level of the speakers you are looking at.

[Mr Peabody]

The rsp-1069 is the newest version, it has HDMI switching but not 1.3. If your preamp has 5.1 or 7.1 analog inputs that will be all you need to keep up with HD players because they all will do the decoding for you.

The only way to tell if the Arcam would be worth the extra money would be to listen to them. The Arcam would have more of an agressive presentation where the Rotel would be more laid back.

Hopefully, you live in an area where you could hear the Rotel and how it sounds with other speakers. If you get the Rotel rsp, I'd highly recommend using a Rotel power amp for system synergy. The Sonus Faber are good speakers and I would be surprised if they didn't sound great with Rotel. This would be a sweet little package. I'm not sure how much their digital multi-channel amp runs but that would be one to look at.

If you went with the Rotel separates that would be a good compromise, it's better than a receiver and a lot cheaper than having 2 systems. Let me tell you too, a good HT preamp is just as enjoyable on movies.

[Mr Peabody]

There aren't many integrated amps with processors built in. I believe he was referring to the two system set up I was talking about.

[wchek]

Yes, the "pre/pro + integrated" setup refers to the two system setup as mentioned by Peabody.

So of the three setup above, can i say that "pre/pro + integrated" is the most upgrade-proof setup one can get for both music & HT?

Unlike the HT setup, 2-channel music system is basically upgrade-proof, as long as you get a reasonably good system it will last you for a long long time. Can i say that a good music setup consists of a source (CDP) + preamp + power amp + speaker/sub? If cost is a concern, the preamp + power amp can be replaced by an integrated amp?

If the above is true, i might consider spending more on music system and less on HT equipment. What do you guys think?

[Mr Peabody]

If you like the idea of 2 systems, for HT I'd recommend a receiver. A receiver would include the other channels of amplification you would need. A processor or more accurately, preamp processor, this is going to require power amps for all channels. This would be a very expensive way to go when having 2 systems. To keep the cost in line while going with 2 systems I'd recommend an integrated amp for the 2 channel side with the "theater bypass" feature and a decent HT receiver from Cambridge Audio, NAD or possibly Rotel if the cost wouldn't break the budget. One thing about Rotel, and some may disagree, but I find they have a distinct sound and they may be a bit harder to match sound with an integrated's internal amp.

It may be just as good, depending on what you are looking at for 2 channel, to just go with a Rotel processor and multi-channel amp.

Many integrated amps offer the "bypass", I know all Krell do. I'd have to look at the model you were interested in to be sure on other brands. I've seen used Krell 300i's used for around $1,100.00, this is a good buy and incredibly good sounding amp with seemingly endless power. The downside is it seems to sound it's best with Krell cdp or maybe another brand with the same emphasis on current.

If you had access to listen you should go see how much difference you notice between receivers and integrated amps from some of the brands I've mentioned.

[wchek]

In a bookshelf + sub speaker combo setup, is the 2 channel amp still a good choice? Does the 2 channel really mean only the pair of mains and not the sub? Can i still use "theatre bypass" for music listening in this setup (integrated + receiver)?

If that is the case, what choice of amp is most suitable for bookshelf + sub setup for music?

I kinda like the idea of a Rotel pre/pro + multi-channel amp. But i am thinking maybe i should spend more on music than HT, because HT technologies move so fast thus subject to more frequent upgrade.

Taking this into consideration, what setup options do i have? In general, is pre/pro or receiver more expensive?

[Mr Peabody]

Wanting to use your sub for both systems complicates things. It can be done by Y'ing off the main pre outs with one side to a sub and the other to the integrated. You'd have to set your receiver to "no sub" so that full range goes to the mains. You might also find the Sonus Faber sounds pretty good without a sub for music.

I really think your best option is the pre/pro and multi-channel power amp. My processor is a few years old with no recent video switching but it does have DTS/Dolby Digital and analog inputs if I want to use them. This is still compatible with anything. All I do is run my video sources directly to my TV. I personally think that's best, one less component for the video to run through and one less place to worry about a upsampling conversion. You could actually find a good deal on a close out older model and as long as it has at least 5.1 analog inputs you will be good with HD disc players. The only thing you sacrafice is video switching going that way. Both HD disc formats decode inside the machine, so you don't really have to worry about whether your processor has the latest HD movie audio decoders. HD discs are easily compatible with current and past HT gear as long as you don't get hung up on having HDMI, I don't want to get off on a rant but the HDMI is so confusing and all the facts aren't given, I think it's better to avoid it in your stereo and let your TV deal with it. HD disc players have multi-channel outputs like SACD and these would hook into whatever HT gear you got as long as they were equipped with the multi-channel input. Most are since they were needed for SACD.

If you are confused on a point let me know.

[wchek]

In a pre/pro + multi-channel power amp setup,
- Do both pre/pro & power amp need to be turned on for stereo music listening?
- Does the pre/pro process both video & audio signal or just the video signal?
- From the DVD player, do i connect the video output directly to the LCD (via Components or HDMI), and the audio signal to the pre/pro?
- If i have a separate CD player, do i connect it to the pre/pro or directly to the multi-channel power amp?

Which model of pre/pro and multi-channel power amp would you recommend?

What is video switching? Is it for digital video on cable TV?

I agree with you, running video source directly to the TV is a good idea. However, it would be great if i can make use of the upsampling function in the pre/pro to increase the resolution of the satellite TV signal i subscribed to. It has pretty low resolution that the pictures appear to be worse on my 42" Plasma than a CRT TV. To make things worse, i will be getting a 46" Sharp LCD TV for my HT. Will check if the new TV has at least 2 inputs (HDMI or Components), one for HD video source (DVD) direct, another input for satellite signal running thru the pre/pro.

Is HDMI better than Components?

Thank you guys for helping me understand this game better! It's getting more and more interesting now!! :)

[Mr Peabody]

[QUOTE=wchek]In a pre/pro + multi-channel power amp setup,
- Do both pre/pro & power amp need to be turned on for stereo music listening?
* Yes, as a preamp does not have a power section to drive speakers-

Does the pre/pro process both video & audio signal or just the video signal?
* It can do both. Some feature upsampling for video and some just bypass it. The switching is where you can switch from, let's say DVD to cable box with your processor/receiver's remote with one button both audio and video would switch. Processors can decode digital signals from DVD or CD, they can also accept analog (already decoded) signals for either 2 channel or 5-7.1.

- From the DVD player, do i connect the video output directly to the LCD (via Components or HDMI), and the audio signal to the pre/pro?
*Yes, that is one way. HDMI is probably better because it gives your TV a digital signal and carries both audio & video, which is handy for watching TV without the surround system on. It is alright to connect to either TV or processor as long as the processor accepts current video connections but as we discussed earlier going direct to the TV has it's advantages.

;- If i have a separate CD player, do i connect it to the pre/pro or directly to the multi-channel power amp?
* You would connect it to the processor, a power amp does not have volume control. Depending on the quality of your CD player, you could use either a digital or analog connection, you'd have to try both to see which sounds best. Most processors will allow a bypass (not to be confused with the previous "bypass" we talked about) for the analog connection to have a more direct route and bypass all the HT features for better sound.

Which model of pre/pro and multi-channel power amp would you recommend?
* For your budget and keeping with a good value, take a listen to the Rotel, NAD, possibly Adcom or B&K. Which brands would you have access to?

What is video switching? Is it for digital video on cable TV?
* If you run all video sources into a processor or receiver, then only one connection from there to TV, this will allow you to switch both sound and video of the same source with one button on your remote, that's it.

I agree with you, running video source directly to the TV is a good idea. However, it would be great if i can make use of the upsampling function in the pre/pro to increase the resolution of the satellite TV signal i subscribed to. It has pretty low resolution that the pictures appear to be worse on my 42" Plasma than a CRT TV. To make things worse, i will be getting a 46" Sharp LCD TV for my HT. Will check if the new TV has at least 2 inputs (HDMI or Components), one for HD video source (DVD) direct, another input for satellite signal running thru the pre/pro.
* An LCD should upsample your satelite signal anyway without help from another source, this is why really it's better to go directly to the TV. You may have to go inside the satelite box and set the output resolution. Do you have HD channels now from your satelite?

Is HDMI better than Components?
* That's debateable but it is supposed to be and it's the only true digital connection. As I mentioned above, HDMI carries both digital audio and video with only the one connection.
Thank you guys for helping me understand this game better! It's getting more and more interesting now!!

[wchek]

So now i have narrowed down to two options :
(A) : receiver + 2 channel integrated amp
(B) : pre/pro + multi-channel power amp

After a quick check on some prices on the internet, i feel (A) fits my budget more comfortably than (B).

For Setup (B), Rotel RSP-1608 + RMB-1075 would set me off by about $2700. I think this setup places equal emphasis on both music and HT, which is my original intention. However, as I research on I found that it is worthwhile to spend a little more on 2-channel music because it doesn't go outdated as fast, unlike in HT technologies.

This is another reason why i prefer Setup (A), besides that cost. A normal Yamaha RX-V861 receiver + Rotel RA-1062 integrated only costs $1400 (almost half of (B)). I am not sure how the 2-channel music will turn out to be, but I would be happy if it is equally good or even better than the 2-channel in Setup (B). I know HT quality in (B) will be much better, but the $1300 i saved can be spent on a better integrated or speaker/sub.

So in Setup (A) with bookshelf mains, what is the best way to connect the sub for 2-channel music?

Other equipments under consideration are:
Main speaker : Sonus Faber Concertino Domus (bookshelf)
Sub : Velodyne VX-10 or REL
Surround : Wharfedale Diamond 9 DFS
Integrated amp : any recommendation?
Receiver : any recommendation? (budget for integrated + receiver : $1400-$2000)
DVD Player : Pioneer DV600
CD Player : any recommendation? (budget $500)

What do you guys think?

I have access to Rotel, Cambridge Audio, Exposure, Yamaha, but not sure about NAD, Adcom and B&K though. The satellite signal doesn't have HD channels at the moment, but i think it is coming soon.

[Mr Peabody]

You should listen to the Cambridge and Rotel to see which sound you prefer. Both offer pretty good value but they sound different from each other.

The only way I'd know to do a sub with a two system set up as I stated in an earlier post, you'd have to set the receiver to "no sub" in the set up menu, direct your LFE to mains, and use Y adaptors from the integrated pre outs, with one side to the sub and the other back into the amp. I doubt if you find a stereo integrated with sub out.

[Mr Peabody]

www.spearitsound.com is selling a NAD preamp processor with 7 channel power amp for $1,948.00, regularly around $3,500.00. The power amp is sold as a refurb, the website would give you the definition. The processor has 7.1 analog in so it would work with HD disc players. Only component video in/outs though.

I saw this and thought I'd share, Jack would give at a 14 day return. They aren't as generous as some but very good to deal with. I've bought stuff from them before. They also carry Rotel and Cambridge, Jack could give you some good info between the 3 if you email him. Link is on the site under "used/demos".

[pixelthis]

In a pre/pro + multi-channel power amp setup,
- Do both pre/pro & power amp need to be turned on for stereo music listening?
yes

- Does the pre/pro process both video & audio signal or just the video signal?
both
- From the DVD player, do i connect the video output directly to the LCD (via Components or HDMI), and the audio signal to the pre/pro?
Maybe. "video switching" will obsolete a perfectly good receiver or prepro more than
anything, because these days the standards are in flux. TRY to connect video directly to your MONITOR

- If i have a separate CD player, do i connect it to the pre/pro or directly to the multi-channel power amp?
To the pre pro, you really are new to this aren't you?


Which model of pre/pro and multi-channel power amp would you recommend?
Outlaw, for reasons I will explain shortly

What is video switching? Is it for digital video on cable TV?
IT FOR CHOOSING BETWEEN video sources, DVd and cable, HD dvd, etc
I agree with you, running video source directly to the TV is a good idea. However, it would be great if i can make use of the upsampling function in the pre/pro to increase the resolution of the satellite TV signal i subscribed to. It has pretty low resolution that the pictures appear to be worse on my 42" Plasma than a CRT TV. To make things worse, i will be getting a 46" Sharp LCD TV for my HT. Will check if the new TV has at least 2 inputs (HDMI or Components), one for HD video source (DVD) direct, another input for satellite signal running thru the pre/pro.

There is no "upsampling" unless you spend a few grand on a scaler. An upconverting
dvd player will upconvert a signal and make it look a bit smoother but you wont get any resolution out of it that didn't go into it. This is the first law of the universe,
THERE AIN'T NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH.



Is HDMI better than Components?
YES, you need at least two of these on your TV

Thank you guys for helping me understand this game better! It's getting more and more interesting now!! :)
let me throw a little cold water on you.
Don't get the cart before the horse, first you need a budget.
With 4K YOU need to spend half on speakers at least, they are the most important part
of your system.
That leaves 2K for amplification, sources, cables, etc.
A pre pro is the best route, but if you don't know where the CD player plugs into you have no business buying one, and you can't afford one on your budget.
I would reccomend something like an Integra, a higher line version of Onkyo.
I got one for 1200$, and it has stuff like 12 volt triggers and preamp outs, that would make it a beginner pre pro when you're ready, which is why I bought it.
When you learn a few things you can get a five channel amp from someplace like
Outlaw, hook it up and you have a beginner pre pro setup, but in the meantime you have a nice receiver and speaker setup.
Yamaha has nice higher line stuff also, Mr P aside.
Yammys pay at least a little attention to stuff like Damping factors, and while they aren't
as good as seperate amps, they at least try, they make their own DSP chips for instance.
Marantz is also nice, their stuff seems more "musical " to me at least, if that makes
sense. And with decent speakers you should have a nice system to both look at and listen to. None of this advice includes the price of a display BTW:1:

[Mr Peabody]

Pix, you dogged Rich out for having B&W with his Yamaha and now you are telling this buy to spend an entire half his budget on speakers, which are important, but I disagree, the, most important.

[wchek]

The SF Concertino would set me off $1700 and ProAc Reference 8 around $1800, converted from my currency. This is slightly less than half my budget. Due to budget constaint i will most likely be going the stereo amp + receiver route.

For stereo, i am looking at Rotel 06 Series (CDP06 cd player + RC 06 pre + RB06 power amp). However, i do not know if the Rotel can match the speakers (either SF or ProAc). I can audition Rotel with ProAc in the same shop, but the SF is from another dealer which i doubt sells Rotel.

Please help.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't know enough about the particular pieces to sway you one way or the other. You should start with a listen to the Rotel/Proac to see if that is even a combo you like. Our local Rotel dealer has used them with B&W (of course), Heil (when in business) and Martin Logan, so depending on the amp, they are capable of driving some difficult speakers.

How much difference between the RC06 and a RSP-1069? Does the RC06 have a "bypass" feature. Keep in mind with 2 systems you have to have some way to share the mains.

[Mr Peabody]

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Reviews/Real_Hi_Fi/V3Q3R3L3

Looks like the RC06 is significantly less than going with a RSP-1069, but then again how much would the receiver be. The RB-06 is bridgeable so this is a definite upgrade path. The pair look like a pretty good deal, especially if they perform.

You could actually use a tape loop for the bypass. You would run the preamp main outs into the RC06 tape loop. When watch a movie, or setting the surround volume levels, the RC07 volume control would need to be full volume. So some definite caution would be continually needed that you or anyone didn't accidently turn the monitor off, or forget to turn the volume back down when done.

When buying speakers also keep in mind a matching center channel at some point and whether the receiver you choose will drive it.

[wchek]

Wanting to use your sub for both systems complicates things. It can be done by Y'ing off the main pre outs with one side to a sub and the other to the integrated. You'd have to set your receiver to "no sub" so that full range goes to the mains. You might also find the Sonus Faber sounds pretty good without a sub for music.


Sorry but i'm a bit confused here. Do you mean the Y is installed on the sub input so that it gets two input signal, one from receiver and the other from the integrated? If yes, would the inteference from receiver signal degrade 2-ch music listening (due to 2 simultaneous signal to the sub)?

Just checked that the REL Quake can take 2 inputs, line level (RCA) and hi level (speaker cable). I can connect the sub out of the receiver to the sub RCA in, and hi level signal from power amp / integrated to the sub hi level in. What do you guys think of this connection?

[Mr Peabody]

Sorry, now that I read that again, that won't work for both anyway. It would work though if your Y adaptor came out of the RC06 preout. The single end goes into the RC06 preout, one side of the remaining two goes to the power amp and the other to the sub. Since the power amp, rb06, would be on for music or HT, this set up would work. Again, you have to set your receiver to "no sub" so all the LFE goes to the main channels.

Your set up may work but the high level inputs generally aren't the best when there's a choice. If you do this you'll have to set the sub for music with the Rotel and then set the receiver's level with it's internal volume.

[wchek]

As far as i know, if there is no direct receiver-sub connection, you won't get the special effect of the .1 in DTS. The sub simply plays the low freq of the signal to the mains. Am i correct?

What if I install a Y at the sub input so that it takes 2 input signals, one from pre-out of the pre-amp (2ch music), the other from receiver sub-out (HT)? This is based on the assumption that at any one time, either the music system (CD, preamp, power amp, mains, sub) or the HT system (DVD, receiver, power amp, mains, center, surround) can be turned on. The good thing about this configuration is that it uses only the line level input (RCA) of the sub, avoiding hi level input which is deemed to have poorer quality. However, I do not know if Y'ing off the sub to take 2 inputs will degrade the performance. Can anyone pls advise?

[Mr Peabody]

When you set your receiver's set up menu to "no sub" the decoder will mix the .1 in with the mains. Some receivers will give you a choice of where to mix the .1 but to the mains would be best way. And by the sub being wired to the mains, therefore the sub will still get the LFE.

I don't think using a Y into the sub with both connected is a good idea. You could see if there is some type of switch box available though.

Are you sure you would need a sub for music?

[wchek]

When you set your receiver's set up menu to "no sub" the decoder will mix the .1 in with the mains. Some receivers will give you a choice of where to mix the .1 but to the mains would be best way. And by the sub being wired to the mains, therefore the sub will still get the LFE.

I don't think using a Y into the sub with both connected is a good idea. You could see if there is some type of switch box available though.

Are you sure you would need a sub for music?

Will i lose any special effect out of the DTS .1 if i mix the .1 to the mains?

I will most likely be getting a good bookshelf as oppose to floorstander due to budget constraint, therefore i think a sub is necessary.

[Mr Peabody]

Not at all.

[wchek]

Has anyone tried Audio Analogue Primo integrated and cd player with Sonus Faber Domus speakers?

Appreciate any comments :)

[Mr Peabody]

I'm not familiar with Audio Analogue

[wchek]

It seems there are endless choice of amps to match, but how do i narrow down my search? I'm looking for some guidelines here, perhaps your experience might help...

What factor influences matching of amp with speaker? Is it amp output power? speaker input impedance? etc?

When someone say a speaker is easy or difficult to drive, do they mean the required power to drive is high for difficult speaker, and likewise low power for easy speaker?

How do we know if a speaker and amp is properly matched? What happens when the combination does not match?

[Mr Peabody]

One thing is to look at a speakers sensitivity rating. If you have a certain watt amp it will sound louder with a speaker rated at 93dB vs one rated at 89dB or the higher the sensitivity rating the louder the speaker will sound with the same amount of signal in. http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.html So if you have a low power amp it will be more capable of filling the room with sound with a more sensitive speaker. On the other hand if you have a speaker with low sensitivity you will need more power, watts, to fill the room.

Another thing is a speakers impedance. This is more difficult because speakers have a nominal impedance rating (id 4, 6 or 8 ohms) but it's not so much that, it's more how stable or how close the nominal the speaker remains as it receives the music signal. If a speaker swings down to low impedances, approaching 1 ohm, you will need an amp capable of producing a lot of current. When you look at an amps specs, a high current amp will usually at least double it's power from 8 to 4 ohms ( ie 100 wpc into 8 ohms, 200 wpc into 4 ohms)

Some of the British amps from the likes of Arcam or Creek have low power ratings but tremendous ability to drive difficult loads. So if you don't need Rock concert volume levels they are a good value because the sound quality is also very good. The Rotel package you were considering didn't look bad if you liked the sound. A Krell integrated would perform better than separates in that price range. You can usually find good deals on those at Audiogon.com. Also, Krell would give you both massive power and current.

Aside from all of that many amps can sound quite different from one another, so some listening is advised or buying from a company/website with return policy. If you are lucky enough to have a true. high end shop in your area they are willing to allow in home auditions.

[wchek]

One thing is to look at a speakers sensitivity rating. If you have a certain watt amp it will sound louder with a speaker rated at 93dB vs one rated at 89dB or the higher the sensitivity rating the louder the speaker will sound with the same amount of signal in. http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/dB.html

Mr.P,
Thanks for the explanation. Interestingly enough the URL you mentioned is from a university i graduated from :) are you from unsw too?


You can usually find good deals on those at Audiogon.com....... If you are lucky enough to have a true. high end shop in your area they are willing to allow in home auditions.

Unfortunately I do not live in the US, so i do not have access to audiogon and other online stores. As you said, the choice i have is limited to what brand the dealer carries. As far as i know, the SF dealer carries Audio Analogue, Rotel, Cambridge Audio, Exposure, Musical Fidelity, and of course SF Musica integrated. The ProAc dealer carries Primare, Rotel, Exposure, Cambridge Audio, NAD, Naim.

I like the SF but i think ProAc are awesome too. My options are still open. Which do you think is the best combination?

[Mr Peabody]

No one here carries SF or Proac. Out of the lines you have to choose from my pick would be either Musical Fidelity or Naim. Primare is a well built product and I like my processor for HT but I'm not fond of Primare's music playback, it's a personal preference. I did have a dealer that carried Naim, very good stuff. I should say too that I have never heard Audio Analogue or Exposure.

I did not graduate from unsw. I found that article some time back and saved it. Occasionally some one opens the can of worms when talking about speaker sensitivity whether 3dB is double the sound or if you need 10 times the amp power to double your sound. The article is a good reference.