Dumb amp/preamp question?

[Number9]

I have a receiver that has a "pre-out" can I add an amp or preamp to increase it's power? I don't know much about HiFi. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, Michael

[jeskibuff]

I have a receiver that has a "pre-out" can I add an amp or preamp to increase it's power
Well, adding a preamp doesn't make much sense in regards to pre-out connections, but yes, you CAN connect another amplifier to those jacks to possibly improve the sound quality. Remember that more power doesn't necessarily mean better sound, but in most cases, a separate power amp will deliver better sound than a receiver that is compromised by sticking a bunch of electronics into one box.

[markw]

To clarify the above statement, you can replace your receivers power amp with an external amp. Unless you want to biamp, which requires special speakers, it's an either/or situation. You can't use both power amps at the same time.

[Number9]

Thanks Mark. So are you saying that I can't hook up an amp thru the "pre-out" or that it's completely impossible to do, period? Thanks, Michael

[topspeed]

You CAN hook up an amp using the pre-outs. You simply plug your speaker wire into the outboard amp(s) and your receiver is now a preamp/processor. This bypasses your receiver's inline amps. You can also add a preamp w/ a theater bypass function but explaining this will probably just make this more confusing. Just remember for now that it is an option. As Jeski said, it will probably sound better with the addn'l amp but it's really up to you to decide if you can hear the difference. I certainly could.

[Number9]

You CAN hook up an amp using the pre-outs. You simply plug your speaker wire into the outboard amp(s) and your receiver is now a preamp/processor. This bypasses your receiver's inline amps. You can also add a preamp w/ a theater bypass function but explaining this will probably just make this more confusing. Just remember for now that it is an option. As Jeski said, it will probably sound better with the addn'l amp but it's really up to you to decide if you can hear the difference. I certainly could.
Is there a way to use the receiver's power supply AND an amp or preamp? Which would be better, an amp or a preamp? If this is not possible would I just use the receiver as a tuner? Thanks, Michael

[RGA]

Firstly, let's back up a minute. Don't confuse volume level with watts. For instance if your receiver is 80 watts in order foryou to get DOUBLE the volume to your ear you would need 800 watts - that's right ten times the power. And you would ONLY get double the volume if your speakers say Max 800watts. Which is highly doubtful. Some speakers are built to play loud and some aren't.

Most power amps are between 100-200 wattsper channel...let's say you buy one that is double the 80 watts of the receiver(yours may be different but this is an example). SO you buy a 160watt power amp. This will give you a 3decibal increase in volume...which is BARELY audible and I sure would not want to spend money for a 3db increase.

Where a power amp is useful however is handling the carying impedence dips all speakers have and for clarity and general bass control. The reason people buy good integrated amplifiers even with LESS watts than a receiver is that we can play louder clearer.

I have a 70 watt Sugden integrated and an 80watt Marantz receiver. The former has les watts but has more bass depth and tighter control...it also plays at a higher volume level clearer - The Marantz will play just as loud but sounds lifeless.

Speaker sensitivity has more impact on volume than does an amp. For instance if you have 85db(1 watt/1eter) speakers and I have 95db(1 watt/1meter) speakers I would get the same volume level with 10 watts that you would with 100 watts.

For instance with just 1 watt your speaker(assuming it's 85db) will produce a fairly loud 85db...to get that 3db extra requires double the watts or 2 watts - want another 3db you double it again 4watts

85db speaker / watts

85 = 1watt
88 = 2
91 = 4
94 = 8
97 = 16
100 = 32
103 = 64
106 = 128
109 = 256 (by now chances are this is well out of what the speaker can handle in watts so 108decibals is probably as loud as it can go...which is very loud and can cause hearing loss)

The 95db speaker that I have / watts

95 = 1watt
98 = 2
101 = 4
104 = 8
107 = 16 (I'm getting the volume with 16 watts that the above set-up maxed out at)
110 = 32
113 = 64
116 = 128
119 = 256 (My speaks can take 175 so roughly 118db but these speakers would be TWICE as loud as the above even if the above could handle 250 watts and had more amplifier power).

Then there is the whole impedene issue which also throws a wrench into the mix and where receivers fall apart. Even with my easy to drive speakers a 120w Bryston Power amp I tried for a weekend made a huge improvement over the flagship 125 watt per channel Pioneer Eliite i had in the mid 1990s.

Pre outs are terrific and good of the manufacturer to realise their power amp sections are the weak link and allow you to upgrade.

[topspeed]

Is there a way to use the receiver's power supply AND an amp or preamp? Which would be better, an amp or a preamp? If this is not possible would I just use the receiver as a tuner? Thanks, Michael

There are a lot of things I'm going to have to assume here Michael so bare with me...

Let's assume you have an AV receiver and want to plug a 2 or 3 channel amp to run your mains and/or center off of. Most every AV receiver's amp section is compromised because of space and cost limitations. This is not to say they are bad, just not as good as they could be. A separate amp will have a different sound (especially tubes) and each channel will likely have their own dedicated power supply. Therefore, there would be no way (or need for that matter) to use a receiver's power supply. Now, you only bypass the amps within the receiver that you have plugged a separate amp into via the pre-outs. In other words, if you plug a 2 channel amp in to run the mains, say for stereo playback, the receiver's amps will still power the center and surrounds. Make sense?

If you usually listen to music in 2 channel and are pretty serious about it, you can add a preamp with a theater bypass function or you can use the tape loop. This way, when you listen to 2 channel, you would actually bypass your receiver altogether and only be listening to the source, your outboard pre and amp. A lot of 2 channel enthusiasts do this because of the compromises inherent in receivers yet we don't have the space for dedicated HT's and 2 channel rigs. I'm not sure whether or not your tuner will work with this set-up. I'd think not.

Personally, I feel that there are more audible differences between amps than pre's therefore I added an amp first. I prefer passive pre's tho so you have to listen REALCLOSE to hear the diff between them anyway. The advantage of adding an outboard amp was immediate and very dramatic. It was as if I had new speakers. No kidding. I started listening to everything all over again just to see what I was missing. It was great fun!

[Number9]

There are a lot of things I'm going to have to assume here Michael so bare with me...

Let's assume you have an AV receiver and want to plug a 2 or 3 channel amp to run your mains and/or center off of. Most every AV receiver's amp section is compromised because of space and cost limitations. This is not to say they are bad, just not as good as they could be. A separate amp will have a different sound (especially tubes) and each channel will likely have their own dedicated power supply. Therefore, there would be no way (or need for that matter) to use a receiver's power supply. Now, you only bypass the amps within the receiver that you have plugged a separate amp into via the pre-outs. In other words, if you plug a 2 channel amp in to run the mains, say for stereo playback, the receiver's amps will still power the center and surrounds. Make sense?

If you usually listen to music in 2 channel and are pretty serious about it, you can add a preamp with a theater bypass function or you can use the tape loop. This way, when you listen to 2 channel, you would actually bypass your receiver altogether and only be listening to the source, your outboard pre and amp. A lot of 2 channel enthusiasts do this because of the compromises inherent in receivers yet we don't have the space for dedicated HT's and 2 channel rigs. I'm not sure whether or not your tuner will work with this set-up. I'd think not.

Personally, I feel that there are more audible differences between amps than pre's therefore I added an amp first. I prefer passive pre's tho so you have to listen REALCLOSE to hear the diff between them anyway. The advantage of adding an outboard amp was immediate and very dramatic. It was as if I had new speakers. No kidding. I started listening to everything all over again just to see what I was missing. It was great fun!
I only have 2 speakers, although I would like to add a sub. I have a Marantz 2 channel receiver (55 or 60 wpc) & I'm not into Home Theater. I'm thinking of buying used/demo equipment so that I can experiment & I won't lose alot of money. So, I should look at amps but not preamps? What brand of amp do you have? Thanks for your help. I'll talk to you Monday. Michael

[topspeed]

I only have 2 speakers, although I would like to add a sub. I have a Marantz 2 channel receiver (55 or 60 wpc) & I'm not into Home Theater. I'm thinking of buying used/demo equipment so that I can experiment & I won't lose alot of money. So, I should look at amps but not preamps? What brand of amp do you have? Thanks for your help. I'll talk to you Monday. Michael

Hey Michael,

If you're not into HT, my first thought was to sell the Marantz and buy a used amp and pre. If that's not within you budget right now, I'd definitely get an amp first and eventually replace the Marantz with a pre. You'll of course need to get a tuner now but they're dirt cheap. I'd get XM anyway :). Another route would be to get an integrated amp like RGA and not worry about mixing and matching amps and pre's, which can be a kind of black art anyway. There are very good, reasonably priced integrateds like the NAD C320Bee or higher-end gear from Arcam, Roksan, Plinius, Audio Refinement, etc.

Used is a great way to a lot of bang for your buck. A used pre is usually a very safe bet because it's essentially a switching device. As long as it has a reliable attenuator, the dumb thing should last longer than you do. (This doesn't apply to tube pre's of course). For amps, do some more research and if it's important to you, get one that has a long warranty like Bryston (20 yrs) or Odyssey (also 20 years).

I have a PS Audio HCA2 that only has a 3 yr warranty (which pissed me off to be honest) but I've had a fair amount of experience with Paul's stuff and they have never let me down before. It's a hybrid class D amp which is altogether different than normal Class A or A/B amps, whether ss or tube. In my system, it was the best I'd heard before I hit the price ceiling where the wife goes into full kill mode.
http://www.stereophile.com//amplificationreviews/729/index.html

What speakers are you using?

Have a great weekend.
ts

[Number9]

I'm using PSB Image 5T speakers right now. I have a very inexpensive system but it sure sounds good! I'm looking to upgrade everyting over a period of time. As I said earlier, I'm new to HiFi but I've been bitten by the audiophile bug. What a wonderful hobby. Michael

[topspeed]

it sure sounds good!
This is the ONLY thing that matters! Don't let anybody convince you otherwise. Money and ego should have no part in your enjoyment of music.

Enjoy
ts

[CARLOS]

Number9...........I didn't see it mentioned above so I thought i'd drop a line to warn you that adding a more powerful amp to that Marantz is going to add the noise from your receivers pre amp to your sound. If the amp in your Marantz is 50-60 wpc, you probably can't hear much or no noise generated from within but adding a more powerful amp will probably reveal it. So if you hear that extra hiss and maybe some little pops from knob tweaking ( Marantz goes back a ways ) don't be alarmed. I had a Marantz and got those results mentioned above when I did what you are thinking to do, so I thought i'd pass that along.
Carlos

[F1]

I'm using PSB Image 5T speakers right now. I have a very inexpensive system but it sure sounds good! I'm looking to upgrade everyting over a period of time. As I said earlier, I'm new to HiFi but I've been bitten by the audiophile bug. What a wonderful hobby. Michael

Not trying to break your upgrading mood, but you may contemplate on the following quote from DMK in another thread that I fully agree with... and many people forget the importance of room accoustics.


.......
Lastly, if you don't first have the best speakers you can afford, forget preamps and amps for now and upgrade your speakers. If I were to categorize by order of importance, I'd go this way:

1) Source. NOT source components but the software. The best sounding CD's sound pretty awesome on the worst stereo! Could be improved but still great sounding.
2) Speakers
3) Room acoustics
4) Vinyl playback source component
5) Preamp
6) Amp
7) Digital playback source component
8) All other claptrap such as cables, power conditioning, tweaks, etc, most of which I consider anywhere from dubious to an outright waste of funds.
......

[nusiclover]

Firstly, let's back up a minute. Don't confuse volume level with watts. For instance if your receiver is 80 watts in order foryou to get DOUBLE the volume to your ear you would need 800 watts - that's right ten times the power. And you would ONLY get double the volume if your speakers say Max 800watts. Which is highly doubtful. Some speakers are built to play loud and some aren't.

Most power amps are between 100-200 wattsper channel...let's say you buy one that is double the 80 watts of the receiver(yours may be different but this is an example). SO you buy a 160watt power amp. This will give you a 3decibal increase in volume...which is BARELY audible and I sure would not want to spend money for a 3db increase.

Where a power amp is useful however is handling the carying impedence dips all speakers have and for clarity and general bass control. The reason people buy good integrated amplifiers even with LESS watts than a receiver is that we can play louder clearer.

I have a 70 watt Sugden integrated and an 80watt Marantz receiver. The former has les watts but has more bass depth and tighter control...it also plays at a higher volume level clearer - The Marantz will play just as loud but sounds lifeless.

Speaker sensitivity has more impact on volume than does an amp. For instance if you have 85db(1 watt/1eter) speakers and I have 95db(1 watt/1meter) speakers I would get the same volume level with 10 watts that you would with 100 watts.

For instance with just 1 watt your speaker(assuming it's 85db) will produce a fairly loud 85db...to get that 3db extra requires double the watts or 2 watts - want another 3db you double it again 4watts

85db speaker / watts

85 = 1watt
88 = 2
91 = 4
94 = 8
97 = 16
100 = 32
103 = 64
106 = 128
109 = 256 (by now chances are this is well out of what the speaker can handle in watts so 108decibals is probably as loud as it can go...which is very loud and can cause hearing loss)

The 95db speaker that I have / watts

95 = 1watt
98 = 2
101 = 4
104 = 8
107 = 16 (I'm getting the volume with 16 watts that the above set-up maxed out at)
110 = 32
113 = 64
116 = 128
119 = 256 (My speaks can take 175 so roughly 118db but these speakers would be TWICE as loud as the above even if the above could handle 250 watts and had more amplifier power).

Then there is the whole impedene issue which also throws a wrench into the mix and where receivers fall apart. Even with my easy to drive speakers a 120w Bryston Power amp I tried for a weekend made a huge improvement over the flagship 125 watt per channel Pioneer Eliite i had in the mid 1990s.

Pre outs are terrific and good of the manufacturer to realise their power amp sections are the weak link and allow you to upgrade.

I have the marantz 6400 and am driving dynaudio 52se (or 4 ohm speakers). i decided (since i am still within 30 days) to return then marantz, scratch HT, and go with separates since i am NOT convinced that the marantz is doing them justice. WEll, my question then is, "can i preout the marantz with a good integrated and get the SAME good sound as if i were to scratch the marantz all together?" my initial thought was NOT, but now after reading this, i wonder if maybe i didnt know everything there is to know on this subject. then again, maybe i just confused myself and should stick with plan. either way, im sure you can help.
(ps, i am posting this as a thread as well to make sure you get it.)

thanks then.

[Number9]

Michael

[Electric_Haggis]

I only have 2 speakers, although I would like to add a sub. I have a Marantz 2 channel receiver (55 or 60 wpc) & I'm not into Home Theater. I'm thinking of buying used/demo equipment so that I can experiment & I won't lose alot of money. So, I should look at amps but not preamps? What brand of amp do you have? Thanks for your help. I'll talk to you Monday. Michael

Just thought I'd throw in that I recently bought Creek's passive pre-amp, the OBH-22 - I am bloody blown away by it ! If ever there was an affordable gateway to hi-end 2-channel, this little box is IT. I'm running it with a Rotel power amp (RMB-1075), which drives my VAF DC-X speakers as well or better than more expensive amps like Musical Fidelity A3.2