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ji0921
02-26-2004, 05:46 AM
Hi, I'm planning to buy a HT 5.1 system piece by piece with a limited budget of somewhere around USD2,000 - 2,500 for my speakers/sub (the cheaper the better but not at the expense of performance). Before I came across this forum I used to think that Paradigm speakers were the way to go for a budget system base on reviews read in magazines/online reviews. However, after several readings in this forum I've come to realize that that's not completely true. Now I know there's other great sounding speakers in this price range.

I've come to narrow my options for speakers to Paradigm (Studio), B&W (600 series) and Dynaudio (Audience). Before I get too far I must also inform that I live in Indonesia so it limits my buying options. Which means, I don't have access to such brands like Ascend Acoustics, Hsu Research, etc. which are either sold online or factory direct and does not sell/ship to my neck of the woods.

I planned on getting Rotel preamp (RSP 1066) and amp (RMB 1075) for my system. My room size is medium and although I listen to music but it will mostly be for HT use. However, I'm a firm believer that a great speaker must perform well for music first and foremost. Since my room is medium size so I'm leaning towards bookshelf speakers though I'm open to new suggestion in terms brand/model and format.

I thank you very much in advance for your input/feedback :D

Bryan
02-26-2004, 06:06 AM
For speakers, I believe nOrh (http://www.norh.com) ships to your neck of the woods. As you like the sound of Dynaudio you should enjoy them (4.0 video package in either wood or ceramic). SVS (http://www.svsubwoofers.com) probably also will ship there, though I am unsure of how much shipping would be on their 25-31PCi.

ji0921
02-26-2004, 06:23 AM
Bryan:

Thanks for the input. I think the nOrh are too radical for me but I dig the SVS sub. However, I think a more well-known brand is better off because then they should have a local distributor here. If I insist on the SVS I might end up paying more than I should due to the shipping charges. I was thinking of getting a Velodyne though not sure of which model.

RGA
02-26-2004, 06:09 PM
First off you're correct - marketing goes a long way for a lot of companies and often it seems more is spent on marketing than the products. It is not for me or anyone else to tell you what to buy and the two speaker brands you're looking at have their supporters and detractors - some like em both and some despise them both. You can't please everyone...if you could there would only be ONE brand.

The B&W 600 series is actually the competitor - as lines go - to the Paradigm Monitor series. The fact that it competes against the Studio sries is a big compliment to B&W's 600 line for competing at others' higher models. I basically feel the two are similar lines. B&W's offer a slightly warmer bigger rotund presentation the Studios are punchy and beefy. I can't tell you which coffee you should like so I can't tell you which speaker you should like.

However, one swingable factor in the decision process could be that Paradigm might blow out some Studio V2 series cheaper...but then the B&W CDM series may also offer you some deals. - I prefer the CDM line.

You're focussing in home theater - but it seems like music is important as well. GO out and listen...a lot of big magazines only review products with BIG American distributorship and the Brit mags review products with big British distributorship. Probably why you see so much Paradigm and Energy raves in American mags and luke warm reviews of Energy in Britain and almost no reviews for Paradigm in Europe. Vice versa - Roksan, Quad, Epos is raved about there and gets almost no press here.

Magazine reviews may as well be as useful as movie reviews. The review is only right if you agree with them. :D

I know what I like and don't like not from a review but from going out and listening adn comparing often times directly against other speakers - and sometimes total no names come out and blow you away - gee just like movies. The small independant fiulm with no advertising you leave the movie thinking wow what a great movie and you're dissapointed that no one else saw it...but of couse some dreck like Black Sheep will stay in theaters for months :rolleyes: Of course there are also good blockbusters and lousy independants.

B&W and Paradigm and Energy are all reputable brands with good build construction and depending which ones will sound very good - some are less than good...but only you can determine which is what.

ji0921
02-26-2004, 06:51 PM
RGA:

Just the man I was waiting for. You didn't mention anything about Dynaudio. Actually, there are a lot of audio shops here. Maybe some of you have experience this or not but in some parts of Asia, if you go into a shop asking a lot of stuff they are expecting you to buy something from them or else. Of course, there are shops that do provide great customer service but then these shops mostly carry extremely hing-end stuff which are way above my budget. You see, I'm caught in this dilemma which is why I tend to hear out other people's opinion rather than go out and audition them myself.

Basically, what I was hoping is to get some idea/info as to the characteristics of these speaker/brand and the good and bad thing about them. Then, base on these info I should be able to get a better picture of which speaker/brand suit my taste. It'll be great if I can get the best pricing of these speaker as well so that I won't be ripped off here. The good thing in my side of the world is that almost everything can be bargained. For example, when I was browsing at a Rotel dealer here they offered me 25% discount off the retail price of a brand new RMB 1075 straight up which cost USD 999. That was just after a short bargaining session and I'm pretty sure I can get more discount if I decided to buy it then.

RGA
02-26-2004, 08:33 PM
Well B&W and Rotel are co-distributors like Bryston is for PMC. The Rotel B&W is a hugely popular mathing because most dealers - all the ones I've seen - have the Rotels running B&W. It's a shame that Rotel is not more highly regarded in high end circles because I prefer their power amps to a lot of very pricey units such as Classe or Copland - but that's just me I guess.

I have liked B&W for a long time - my first experience with them was the CDM 1SE and 2SE. The latter retailed for $1200.00Cdn and I preferred it handedly over the $2000.00 Totem Model 1. It simply sounded more open and organic.

The 602S2 sounded very solid but required more than receivers were offering up and with Denon the 602S2 sounded rather lifeless even dull with bass response that was flabby. Arcam's units punched up the bass and really brought out a solid tonal balance and plenty of bass weight and drive. But the S2 was a bit reserved. The S3 isn't.

My initial impressions of the Paradigm Studio were awful...since then with better gear...my own amp, I have better opinions on the Studio V2 line to where I could recommend them. I'm personally not thrilled by their treble response and they're not something I would want to listen to long term...but I can respect what they're attempting and acknowledge that some would like them especially for home theater.

But all of this is just my ears...I bought my Sugden based off of an audition with the Studio 100 V2 - so obviously it's not like I hate Paradigm - but if you ever say anything negative people go berzerk that you're attacking the company.

To see where I'm coming from I would try an audition an Audio Note system...Even if they're totally not in your price range or don't fit your decor etc you'll know the type of sound I like. That may be impossible in your area but Audio Note is not tiny - they have dealers all over the world.

Also, I generally am dissatisfied with speakers using metal drivers. It is in my experience listening - used to appeal the home theater crowd creating the pyrotechnics and pumped frequency extremes for home theater effects -- just as there are subs for H/T that will shake your house but be unlistenable for music. But times change and they go where the money is - not where the passion of the designer is.

Not that all metal speakers are lousy or their incorporation is lousy or that soft domes can't be bright or sizzly in the treble.

Dynaudio is extremely good I especialy liked the Dark but involving sound of the 52. Apparantly they have a 52SE which is more straightforward souning and open...if so it could be a winner. - well it already was. And now that the CDM series is no more...the 52 is my champ in this price band.

Though I really want to hear the Audio Note Absolute Zero two and three quasi horn transmission lines. Not suited for the wham of home theater apparently...but that actualy appeals to me.

ji0921
02-26-2004, 11:06 PM
Before, I didn't even bother finding out anything about Dynaudio, of course, then I was new to home audio and didn't quite know who's who in the industry. I used to be dead set on getting Paradigm Studio 40 .v3 but after more reading about Dynaudio, especially Audience 52, I think I'm starting to have a change of heart. Yes, the 52se is quite tempting but the price would be pushing my budget to the edge.

Right now, I have a Yamaha RX-V530 which I bought about 2 yrs ago. That was when I didn't know much about home audio. A friend told me that Yamaha was a safe bet for a newbie to the audio game and so I went along with it. If I was better informed then I would've bought a better model. Now, I'm tempted to upgrade to Yamaha RX-V1400 instead of the Rotel separates but, man, I just love the looks of those Rotels. Plus, separates is the way to go for serious high-end music/HT so that's set.

What's your take on bookshelves and floorstanders? What are the advantages and disadvantages of those formats? Also, from most of input in this forum you seemed to never mention anything about cables. Do you think those expensive fancy cables does make a huge difference to sound? What about silver vs. copper cables? Unbalanced vs. XLR interconnects?

Sorry if I seem to asked a lot but I'm starting to really get into this whole thing and I'm in the curious stage. It's much better to listen to an audiophile's opinion rather than the salesperson. :)

F1
02-27-2004, 06:39 AM
......
What's your take on bookshelves and floorstanders? What are the advantages and disadvantages of those formats? Also, from most of input in this forum you seemed to never mention anything about cables. Do you think those expensive fancy cables does make a huge difference to sound? What about silver vs. copper cables? Unbalanced vs. XLR interconnects?
Sorry if I seem to asked a lot but I'm starting to really get into this whole thing and I'm in the curious stage. It's much better to listen to an audiophile's opinion rather than the salesperson. :)

Sorry to jump in..
If you have a subwoofer, then floorstander is somewhat redundant in the bass department and it costs more too compared to the same series bookshelf. Normally bookshelf speakers have less cabinet problem that may affect the sound as it's more rigid compared to floorstanders.

As for cable, don't spend so much on it. Thick speaker cable (12 or 14 AWG) is preferred no matter what brand. For interconnect, as long as it looks well constructed it should give the same performance with those expensive ones. There are many claims from cable manufacturers that they solve certain defficiency of 'normal' cable with their product but the so called defficiency is actually nothing to worry about. Be sensible and spend more on speaker or electronics.



Which means, I don't have access to such brands like Ascend Acoustics, Hsu Research, etc.

You may email Hsu whether they have a dealer in Indo, sure you'll get an answer within a day. They have one in Singapore. You may also throw in JMLab (Chorus or Cobalt series) in your audition list. They make very fine entry level speaker.
Good luck.

RGA
02-27-2004, 10:47 AM
You're right I'm not a speaker wire or interconnect supporter. I have very well reviewed Tara Labs Prism 11 interconnects...no different than the $3.00 kind they put in the box but boy do they look impressive.

Besides if you MUST have a name cable/speaker wires and highly reviewed ones in What Hi Fi Magazine that are under a $1.00 a foot. These things are like aluminum siding and rust-proofing snake-oil. I have heard pricey speaker wire sound different...worse.

I'd still buy the power amp portion of your Rotel used. It will save money and power amps are probably the safest used buy in all of audio...there are no moving parts.

I prefer standmounts in the same line generally speaking. Largely it has to do with the cabinet. A lot of cheaper speakers use cheap cabinets. But a small standmount cheap cabinet doesn't have a lot of resonances. when you buy the floorstander they put another woofer in or another 6 inch driver they call a woofer and give you more cheap wood(if it's even wood). So they become muddy - yes there is more bass but it's poor bass.

Subs are difficult to integrate properly for music with standmounts however.

Still I prefer standmounts. Audio Note's are all standmounts and go over $20k. Their entry level AZ series are floorstanders.

Some people like the new V3 series so make sure you listen to all these before you buy.

46minaudio
02-27-2004, 12:19 PM
I used to be dead set on getting Paradigm Studio 40 .v3 but after more reading about Dynaudio, especially Audience 52, I think I'm starting to have a change of heart.
I sure hope you try to listen to some of these brands before crossing anything off..Reading and hearing are different ..

ji0921
02-27-2004, 08:48 PM
F1:

I did e-mail Hsu and they said they don't have any distributor in my area. I'd go to Singapore and get them but I'm on budget here so it doesn't make sense to take that trip. I've heard a lot of good reviews on Velodyne subs which is available here. I just don't know which model will suit my taste. Any recommendation?

RGA:

I think I'm dead set on getting a bookshelf speakers because of my room size. Now, I have to be certain which brand and model I really really should audition. Before, there were many options so I can't just go into a shop and audition them all. Traffic's pretty bad in my area so I can't be bothered going back and forth.

Regarding buying a used amp, I'd definitely go that route if I was in the US or Canada or Europe but not here. There's no online auctions sites like you in the aforementioned countries so more likely I'd have to buy it new. But, like I said, the good thing is you can buy new stuff really cheap by bargaining like hell. You know, some distributors here don't pay import tarriffs and fees when they ship in their stuff. Which is why you can get cheap electronics in most parts of Asia. Btw, Audio Note is too rich for my blood :)

46minaudio:

Before, I had too many options which is why I'm checking other people's opinions. Basically, I'm trying to get as much info as possible about which speaker brand and model I should really check out as you know there are a lot in my price range. I had to know more about the characteristics of each speaker brand/model so that I can get a good idea of which ones would suit me best. I will definitely give my shortlist a good listen before I make my purchase. Thanks!

ji0921
02-27-2004, 09:07 PM
OK, so far you guys recommended these following brands: B&W and Energy in addition to my choices like Paradigm, Dynaudio and Audio Note. Due to budget constraints Audio Note is out of the list. Now, my budget is around USD 2,000-2,500 for 5 speakers and 1 sub. Also, I'll be buying them new so B&Ws will be their S3s version and same with Paradigm it will have to be their v.3s.

Now, the question is from B&W, Paradigm Studio, Energy and Dynaudio, which model should make my shortlist and budget from these respective brands? Also, for subs, so far my only option is Velodyne even though I don't know which model yet. Any other recommendation? If Velodyne is best way to go then which model should I choose that will suit my taste and budget?

RGA
02-28-2004, 12:19 PM
Well in another thread a guy recently bougt the Ascend Acoustics CBM 170 for $328US and he said he likes them better than his way more expensive Paradigm Studio 40V2s. I took an interest because I like that they're using a soft dome tweeter and admit that they are shying away from bass to get the midrange up right. Well they talk the talk anyway. For what reviews are worth everyone seems happy from buyers to Stereophile...and the parts quality look to be better than anything else in the $300.00US price range.

I can't tell you if they're good or not but if you're willing to buy unheard they seem like a good option for low money. They seem strong in the midrange leaving the sub to handle the bottome end.

I'm not big on buying speakers unheard but if you have to do it anyway, buying a well reviewed one and one that certainly uses high quality parts and one that even owners of other speakers costing 3-4 times the price like are certainly worht looking at.

"The guys from Ascend have now developed a special wall mount ($80 for a pair) for the CBM-170. I would ask them about any sound degradation with wall mounting. They are very knowledgeable, don't try to push you into buying something you don't need and are pretty quick with their replies (always < 24 hours). There was a slight problem with my shipment due to border issues and they were quite helpful. If you don't like them, I believe you can return them within 45 days for a full refund (minus S+H which is only $8).

I have my Ascends on stands so I can't comment how they sound wall-mounted. They are absolutely brilliant sounding with great imaging, soundstaging and clear mid-range and highs. I honestly prefer them to my Paradigm studio 40/v2's for music although the Paradigm's win out in HT. The Ascends combined with a good subwoofer makes for great audio. Allegedly the owner of SVS uses an Ascend system along with two SVS subs in his own HT, FWIW." From PMR http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=2163

46minaudio
02-28-2004, 02:46 PM
Well in another thread a guy recently bougt the Ascend Acoustics CBM 170 for $328US and he said he likes them better than his way more expensive Paradigm Studio 40V2s. I took an interest because I like that they're using a soft dome tweeter and admit that they are shying away from bass to get the midrange up right. Well they talk the talk anyway. For what reviews are worth everyone seems happy from buyers to Stereophile...and the parts quality look to be better than anything else in the $300.00US price range.

I can't tell you if they're good or not but if you're willing to buy unheard they seem like a good option for low money. They seem strong in the midrange leaving the sub to handle the bottome end.

I'm not big on buying speakers unheard but if you have to do it anyway, buying a well reviewed one and one that certainly uses high quality parts and one that even owners of other speakers costing 3-4 times the price like are certainly worht looking at.

"The guys from Ascend have now developed a special wall mount ($80 for a pair) for the CBM-170. I would ask them about any sound degradation with wall mounting. They are very knowledgeable, don't try to push you into buying something you don't need and are pretty quick with their replies (always < 24 hours). There was a slight problem with my shipment due to border issues and they were quite helpful. If you don't like them, I believe you can return them within 45 days for a full refund (minus S+H which is only $8).

I have my Ascends on stands so I can't comment how they sound wall-mounted. They are absolutely brilliant sounding with great imaging, soundstaging and clear mid-range and highs. I honestly prefer them to my Paradigm studio 40/v2's for music although the Paradigm's win out in HT. The Ascends combined with a good subwoofer makes for great audio. Allegedly the owner of SVS uses an Ascend system along with two SVS subs in his own HT, FWIW." From PMR http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=2163

NRC measurements..for the 170s..
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/ascend_cbm170/
Here is the soundstage review.
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/ascendacoustics_cbm170.htm
If you dont mind the looks.I have read alot of positives on these speakers..As RGA said they are not bottom feeders and would need a sub...

RGA
02-28-2004, 05:07 PM
I have always said NEVER buy a speaker you can't audition first. But if you have no choice but to...buying from these internet ONLY sellers is the best way to go if you think about it. Why? Because they have money back gaurantees that you probably won't get from B&W or Paradigm or Energy etc.

SO if you absolutely MUST buy unheard then I would look at these brands. The measurements don't tell me enough because be a slight tiny itsy bitsy spike at a give pinpoint frequency could be far far more annoying than a HUGE HUIGE HIUGE dip somewhere else.

But the point is you can listen try em out and return em if you don't like them...can't go wrong with that.

F1
02-29-2004, 12:35 AM
.......
Now, the question is from B&W, Paradigm Studio, Energy and Dynaudio, which model should make my shortlist and budget from these respective brands? Also, for subs, so far my only option is Velodyne even though I don't know which model yet. Any other recommendation? If Velodyne is best way to go then which model should I choose that will suit my taste and budget?

You may consider these models:
B&W 602
Paradigm Studio 20
Dynaudio Audience 52
I would add JM Lab Cobalt 806

You should pair them with their respective center channel. As for surround speakers, you can get away with their lower model, such as B&W 303, Paradigm Mini Monitor, Dynaudio Audience 42, JM Lab Chorus 706/705. As for subwoofer, I've read the SPL series from Velodyne is recommended. Get the 10 or 12 incher sub.
Good luck!

ji0921
02-29-2004, 06:15 PM
Yea, I read about Ascend Acoustics but, like I said, they don't ship to my country. I've already e-mailed them about it. Anyway, yes, I will eventually audition them before buying but I just wanted to be sure which brand/model should make my shortlist.Thanks F1, your reply helps a lot.

Before, I wasn't quite sure whether I should look into Studio 20 or 40 in Paradigm's case, or whether Audience 42 or 52. What you guys did was basically helped finalized which model of the respective brand I should try out because each brand have so much models to choose from. Tell you the truth, if I was in the US I'd probably had went ahead and bought HT set of Ascend Acoustics complete with Hsu Research VTF-2 for USD 1,200 (approx).

Anyways, thanks guys for all your help. Now it's time to save up some dough and get busy!

ji0921
02-29-2004, 06:21 PM
One more question, how do I tell if a B&W 602 S3 is indeed S3 and not S2? I know it sounds stupid but I just wanted to make sure. Does it show S3 in the back panel or maybe on the box? Sometimes you get stores that still have a lot old inventory stuff, then a guy like me who's not experience with these stuff gets sold an S2 line when in fact I wanted an S3. Same thing with Paradigm v.2 and v.3.

ji0921
02-29-2004, 07:26 PM
Which is better, Velodyne SPL-1000 or Definitive Technology Supercube I? Both uses 10-inch drivers and Class D 1,500w amp. Retail price for Velodyne is U$1,299 and DefTech U$1,200.