amp quality over pre-amp quality ?

[naulidge]

I the newbie have a question critical to my developing system.

I have a pair of NHT ST-4's and am looking for a good, powerful amp, maybe adcom, to match it. Currently I have a tecnics tuner/receiver/amp (yuck, spitter, gag, etc) .. I am considering keeping this and using it as my pre-amp, since it does have an A, B or no speaker option.

That being said .. what kind of a qaulity hit am I going to take using this technics as my pre-amp if I have good speakers and a good amp to go with it?

I don't understand the purpose of a pre-amp and that is of certain -partially- why I am asking this question.

I'd rather have an adcom gfa-555 with a cheap pre-amp setup than say a gfa-545 with an adcom pre-amp, does this strike you as logical?

Thanks- John

[Mr Peabody]

I hold to the truth that you cannot build an audio signal. You have to start with the best signal you can and maintain that signal the best you can throughout your system until it reaches your ears. So if you degrade your signal with a poor preamp a good power amp will not restore it. You may want to also consider integrated amps that have the pre & power sections in one box. You can't use your receiver as preamp unless you have preamp outputs. Speaker selection switch means nothing. It is a good stepping stone to use your receiver as preamp until you can afford a good preamp. That preamp will be essential though for good sound. In the same manner, you don't want to spend money on new amplification if you have a entry level cd player or other sources. You MUST have a good signal to begin with. Of course you want a balanced system but to illistrate what I am saying, I'd prefer your receiver with a $1k cd player verses an entry level cd player and $1k integrated amp. Others will debate this but they cannot change the fact that an amp will not create or restore what isn't there in the first place.

[happy ears]

I agree what Mr Peabody says above that you cannot improve on the signal quality only degrade it. Just like computers grabage in equals garbage out. If it doesn't have pre amp outputs maybe you could cheat by using a line level adapter that is available in car audio. These are used to adjust the speaker line outputs down to a level that an amplifier can use. Search the internet maybe you can find some simple plans, try ESP Elliot Sound Products it is free, good site.

The importance of a good source is overlooked by many people, I used to think that the most and only important piece was the speakers but I have changed my thinking. Speakers are first and foremost but the source is the second most important component that you buy.

Only wish that most things in life where cheaper so that more of us can enjoy the fruits .of life. I guess that whats seperates your average worker and the rich. First you need the money and then the desire to spend it to appease your ears. Mosty people are quite happy with a basic stereo, power to them. But for myself I want to hear that the band is playing in my room.

[jbangelfish]

Everyone is saying what I would say. A lousy preamp will make everything sound lousy. If your source (record or CD) is good, you need good components to get the most out of it, beginning at the beginning with a good cartridge or a good cd player. From there, the next most important is the preamp, then amp and speakers. Even great speakers can sound like crap if the components are not up to the task. There is no unimportant link in the system. I think of it in reverse from most people, it appears, start to finish with the speakers themselves being the least important. Don't misconstrue this as saying that they are not important. Each and every piece is important and speakers have the biggest sonic signature on a system just because of what they do. I am just more contented to listen to a wide variety of speaker systems as long as I know that I'm getting the most from them VIA the other components that make them do what they are capable of.
Bill

[E-Stat]

I'd rather have an adcom gfa-555 with a cheap pre-amp setup than say a gfa-545 with an adcom pre-amp, does this strike you as logical?
What are your sources? Another approach to consider is to banish the preamp altogether if you listen primarily to high level sources like FM and CD. I use an inexpensive DIY passive attenuator with a Threshold amp for my vintage garage system. It is inexpensive and beats the pants off of even very good active preamps. The downside, of course, is manual source switching. When I go from tuner to CD, I must move the ICs from one unit to another.

rw

[RGA]

I agree in part with the others but cd players even entry level players today are excellent. I've been an audiophile for over a decade and have been rather impressed by the move, even in entry level cd players, on a much smoother treble region. A lot of the reason people feel the need to upgrade their cd players is more due to the fact that they own speakers with metal tweeters or a generally bright sound - they blame the cd player and not what they should be blaming - the speakers.

My Sony Changer is perfectly fine from top to bottom and while there is better to Rega Planet at $1k sure as hell isn't - it's worse. And the differences are very subtle.

Your Technics needs to have preout jacks - not an A/B speaker selector - to be able to add a power amp. If on the back there is no RCA slot that says PREOUT you cannot add a power amp. The Preout means that the technics can be used as a preamp and will output the signal to the power amp. I doubt a Technics has one.

The preamp stage is more important than the power amp and I agree with the others...that a good integrated is probably your best bet.

That is assuming your speakers are good. Cheaper cd players do in fact get ALL of the information off a cd - they may have slightly higher jitter(then again maybe not) an many expensive cd players add noise reverberation and other totally innacurate information to the chain to add a euphonic - it sounds different of course and because it comes in an expensive heavy case and a big price tag from a noted maker it is assumed before listening that it will be better. and when we assume something going in our brain tricks us into thinking it's better. Over long more objective listening we can often realize that the maker deliberately altered the sound, like Rega does, and makes the signal less accurate and even distorted. Cable makers like MIT do this as well.

In fact you would be surprised that the Sony Mega changer I was immediately planning to upgrade with an outboard DA converter turns out to be more open with a larger soundstage a smooth very extended treble region sounds better than single players from Rega, NAD, Denon - and in some ways my Cambridge Audio, YBA. DIfferent not worse.

The adcom's should be an improvement but do try before you buy.

[hifitommy]

for WAY less than $1k, you can come up with what youre looking for. you really dont have to be rich for good sound. theere are adcoms, rotels, nads, all kinds of stuff.

[vivisimonvi]

If you want to cut corners and get close to the source as possible, consider a CD player with a digital output (with a receiver that has optical/coaxial inputs). You let the receiver do the analog conversion right from there and straight to your speakers. Forget about those overpriced analog cables you use from your CD player to receiver. I do this with my cheapie Apex DVD player, just feed the digital signal straight to the receiver, doesn't matter what quality the cable is... It's the one component that can play anything with digital signals (movies, mp3's, CD audio, DVD-audio, HDCD, SACD, whatever else).

I also consider my PC as part of my audio system as it has software preamp capabilities with an optical digital output. Again, let the receiver do the digital to analog conversion. I've never heard of a preamplifier that converts at the digital level except on computers (not the "seperates" conventional kind at least).

The only drawback is if you have a seperate poweramp. The digital signal has to be converted to analog before it gets to the poweramp (as I know of no power amp with digital input capabilities).

[hifitommy]

if you want the cheeeeeep way out, dont bother with the cdp. go to audiogon and get separates. the quality will stomp all over any mass market receiver. dont bother with pricey cables until you have achieved a system with VERY hi rez. that will be a long time from now.

the function of a preamp is to switch components, preamplify phono signals to line level, and provide hi quality sound with low distortion while doing these other things.

your receiver will do for now if it has pre-outs, get a better preamp later. a reasonably priced high powered amp from audiogon will satisfy your need for louder, cleaner playback. on CD you get a taste of separates, youll never go back to receiverland.

[DMK]

I agree in part with the others but cd players even entry level players today are excellent. I've been an audiophile for over a decade and have been rather impressed by the move, even in entry level cd players, on a much smoother treble region. A lot of the reason people feel the need to upgrade their cd players is more due to the fact that they own speakers with metal tweeters or a generally bright sound - they blame the cd player and not what they should be blaming - the speakers.

My Sony Changer is perfectly fine from top to bottom and while there is better to Rega Planet at $1k sure as hell isn't - it's worse. And the differences are very subtle.

Your Technics needs to have preout jacks - not an A/B speaker selector - to be able to add a power amp. If on the back there is no RCA slot that says PREOUT you cannot add a power amp. The Preout means that the technics can be used as a preamp and will output the signal to the power amp. I doubt a Technics has one.

The preamp stage is more important than the power amp and I agree with the others...that a good integrated is probably your best bet.

That is assuming your speakers are good. Cheaper cd players do in fact get ALL of the information off a cd - they may have slightly higher jitter(then again maybe not) an many expensive cd players add noise reverberation and other totally innacurate information to the chain to add a euphonic - it sounds different of course and because it comes in an expensive heavy case and a big price tag from a noted maker it is assumed before listening that it will be better. and when we assume something going in our brain tricks us into thinking it's better. Over long more objective listening we can often realize that the maker deliberately altered the sound, like Rega does, and makes the signal less accurate and even distorted. Cable makers like MIT do this as well.

In fact you would be surprised that the Sony Mega changer I was immediately planning to upgrade with an outboard DA converter turns out to be more open with a larger soundstage a smooth very extended treble region sounds better than single players from Rega, NAD, Denon - and in some ways my Cambridge Audio, YBA. DIfferent not worse.

The adcom's should be an improvement but do try before you buy.


Even the best speakers will be wasted if the signal from upfront isn't up to the task. However, CD players are more similar in sound than they are different. If people disagree that the speakers are the most colored component in the audio chain, I can only assume they don't have much experience with different speakers. Hell, even speakers that are considered "neutral" have different sonic signatures! Compare an electrostat with a box speaker or horns with planars or Quads against Thiels. Try that experiment with CD players.

IME, there is no simple explanation for what audio components are more "important" than others. If you have great speakers, you're probably 80% of the way home. I'd MUCH rather listen to a cheap receiver driving great speakers than great amplification driving lousy speakers. If you're into phono, your next step is the turntable and especially the arm/cartridge. If not, go directly to the preamp. I have no idea why but preamps tend to be much more colored than power amps, although with tubed products that is sometimes reversed. Assuming you have a neutral preamp and a neutral power amp and the power amp has enough juice to drive the speakers, your preamp will impose more of a sonic signature. DEAD LAST in the chain is the CD player. Sure, some of them sound different but the diffs are very subtle, as you pointed out.

IME, if you have your speakers in place and your analog front end is cookin' and your have great amplification (and assuming your speaker placement and room acoustics are maximized), you're 99% of the way home. I hate to be disagreeable with the others but I've heard too many systems where the user had followed that advice and while he was saving up for his speakers, he was gritting his teeth against the sound. If he had bought great speakers, he would have had substandard but listenable sound. His fancy new CD player and amp will NOT make his crappy speakers sound anything but just as crappy as they did before. If someone has to scrimp for awhile, it's the CD player they should scrimp on.

To the original poster: I'd use the Technics as a power amp before I'd used it as a preamp. However, it probably can't be configured in any way other than as both. So I'd take Hifitommy's suggestion and look for good used separates or a good integrated amp on audiogon.

[DrBoom]

I'd MUCH rather listen to a cheap receiver driving great speakers than great amplification driving lousy speakers.

Wow, i'm affraid i'll have to disagree on that part.
So you'd rather listen to Nautilus 804's driven by a cheap Yamaha receiver, then DM602's driven by a Classé CAM350 monobloc amplifier ?
I've heard both of these combinations, and let me assure you that was the best 602 i've ever heard.
If you've ever heard a really good speaker driven by a cheap amp, you'd know better ;)
Speakers ARE a very important part of a hifi system, but great speakers driven by inferior amps just plain suck.
I'd say if the amplifier is up to the task, then upgrading your speakers will be the greatest difference.
If you have a really lousy amp, and are planning to get really good speakers before you upgrade it, forget it and go buy an amp first.

[DMK]

Wow, i'm affraid i'll have to disagree on that part.
So you'd rather listen to Nautilus 804's driven by a cheap Yamaha receiver, then DM602's driven by a Classé CAM350 monobloc amplifier ?
I've heard both of these combinations, and let me assure you that was the best 602 i've ever heard.
If you've ever heard a really good speaker driven by a cheap amp, you'd know better ;)
Speakers ARE a very important part of a hifi system, but great speakers driven by inferior amps just plain suck.
I'd say if the amplifier is up to the task, then upgrading your speakers will be the greatest difference.
If you have a really lousy amp, and are planning to get really good speakers before you upgrade it, forget it and go buy an amp first.

I've no quarrel with the idea of better amplification making the most of cheap speakers. Of course, I'm not sure who in their right mind would combine that Classe amp with those speakers but what the heck. But yes, absolutely, I'd MUCH prefer to hear the Nautilus driven by a cheap receiver until I could get a better amp than listening to the bass shy 602's driven by the Classe. The Classe will help but it won't make the speaker do things it can't. And I've heard more really good speakers driven by cheap amps than I could possibly recall - hence my comfort in suggesting that path rather than the alternate.

Sorry, but I cannot recommend that anyone build a system around an amp unless they've decided on a low power tubed amp, in which case they'll need highly sensitive speakers. Using normal power solid state, it's a sure path to severe disappointment over the long haul. Having set up hundreds of systems for people over the years (and I do what they tell me unless they ask my advice so I've done them both ways), I can't recommend anything other than someone putting the bulk of their money in speakers to start and then upgrading the other components when they can. Empirical evidence, both mine and that from science, simply doesn't support your view.

[hifitommy]

DrBoom (http://forums.audioreview.com/member.php?u=200312)

"So you'd rather listen to Nautilus 804's driven by a cheap Yamaha receiver, then DM602's driven by a Classé CAM350 monobloc amplifier ?"

YES. but first i have to say that dm602s arent lousy. i would rather listen to Nautilus 804's driven by a cheap Yamaha receiver, than cerwin vegas driven by a Classé CAM350.

the weakest link is the speaker, not the elctronics. electronics are way closer to state of the art than speakers so yes, i would go for better speakers first, then the electronics.

oh, you would probably hear SOME improvement in sound switching to classe driving CVs but the other way around, Nautilus 804s swapped for CVs would be a huge change, adding the classe to that would be the icing on the cake.

[DMK]

DrBoom (http://forums.audioreview.com/member.php?u=200312)

"So you'd rather listen to Nautilus 804's driven by a cheap Yamaha receiver, then DM602's driven by a Classé CAM350 monobloc amplifier ?"

YES. but first i have to say that dm602s arent lousy. i would rather listen to Nautilus 804's driven by a cheap Yamaha receiver, than cerwin vegas driven by a Classé CAM350.

the weakest link is the speaker, not the elctronics. electronics are way closer to state of the art than speakers so yes, i would go for better speakers first, then the electronics.

oh, you would probably hear SOME improvement in sound switching to classe driving CVs but the other way around, Nautilus 804s swapped for CVs would be a huge change, adding the classe to that would be the icing on the cake.

...is spot on accurate. I should say that I recommend going for the speakers first but there should be a balance with the system. In the system Dr Broom mentioned, I'd replace that Yamaha receiver ASAP but if I could only upgrade one item at a time, speakers would always be first. And if that Yammie had a power out jack, my next upgrade would be a first class preamp driving the power amp section of the Yammie. Then I'd save for a better power amp. Of course, people would get a huge laugh out of, say, a Classe pre driving the Yammie but that's better than me crying if I used the Yammie to drive a CAM350. The preamp will screw up the sound faster than a power amp (assuming the power amp has sufficient juice to drive the speakers). I don't understand why but it's true, IME.

That doesn't mean that the speakers should always be more expensive. The best system I ever heard used $7500 loudspeakers with $16K worth of tube amplification. I own those speakers but I can't justify the minor improvement that the $16K amps bring over my amp and preamp which retail at around half that much. Too much vinyl sitting around waiting for my grubby fingers to pick up! Also, I auditioned a $1300 solid state integrated (the Sugden A21A) with my speakers and got 95% of the performance of my more expensive tubed stuff. As you said, amps are much closer to SOTA than speakers which are SO personal in sound that you can find a dozen or more different pairs that are deemed accurate and neutral and all could sound very different.