Mutiny on the AR Board

[PeruvianSkies]

Ok,

I think most of us are aware of the dire situation with this site. I mean, it's pretty pathetic. There are about 20-30 of us who really help keep this site alive and that is just flat out sad. We need to take charge here people! We need to organize and stand up for our rights. This site should be run by the people and we ARE the people, so let's try and get AR back to a healthy place again. I am open to suggestions for sure and I have plenty myself, but nothing really seems to get done around this place regardless.

Don't get me wrong, AR is a very cool place and could be even better. I owe a great deal of my knowledge to this site, but it's not THE site, it's the people of this site. We are the ones that make this place interesting and informative. We need to breathe some life back into this dormant site. It would be great to see this place thrive with tons of visitors where we can have very good discussions on music, movies and audio. Think about what it would be like to educate the public on what good sound is, or what good music is, or movies etc etc. I think it's time we take the reigns on this, but I cannot do this alone. It will take the combined efforts of all of us to help make this place what it could be.

So who is with me????

[basite]

Count me in!! :cornut:

[GMichael]

I'm all for coming up with ideas to help this place get more action. At any given point there are 4 to 10 times as many lurkers as members here. This is because if you do a search on Google for audio or video products, this site comes up more than most. The trick is for us to give these lurkers a reason to join into our conversations instead of just reading them. We have to make them feel welcome to join our family.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I think I've expressed my opinions about this site's *situation* more than once; it's for the most part fallen on deaf ears by the people who hold the reigns, so I've started splitting my online discussion time between here and a computer forum I recently discovered. PC gaming is another one of my passions.

I'll do whatever I can to help out PS, but don't be surprised if the efforts end up for not. FWIW, as much as I dislike Pix's style and the way he constantly insults the company I've long had the goal of being a part of, I've come to look at it as a means for me to promote my sense of humor. I think GM would agree.

I like spending time here and feel comfortable that for the most part others have grown to tolerate me (although I just recently got two red chicklets and a blue (?) one), but I'm just not that enthusiastic about this community anymore. Anyway, let's give it a shot!

[basite]

good point there Mike, however: How are you going to do that? thing is that alot of people google their question, find the answer here and move on, they don't join in because they already have their answer. Alot of those lurkers don't know much about audio & video, maybe that's why they don't join in, because they wouldn't know what to tell.

[GMichael]

I'm not sure yet, but that is the best way for us to get this place back in shape. Let's all work on ideas.

Here's my first one: On many other sites, I see chances to win free audio and video equipment. Registering is a requirement to win. Why not try that here. We could start off with something small like a calibration disk from Rives.

[basite]

yes, but who will be paying for the prizes? you can't give away stuff you don't have...

but winning prizes is a good thing...

another idea: on AK for example, you get discount on a number of sites (audio repair shops, & things like partsexpress or so) maybe we could try that too, asking those sites to give discount TO MEMBERS ONLY, in return they get a link to their site on the forums...

[Swish]

Ok,

I think most of us are aware of the dire situation with this site. I mean, it's pretty pathetic. There are about 20-30 of us who really help keep this site alive and that is just flat out sad. We need to take charge here people! We need to organize and stand up for our rights. This site should be run by the people and we ARE the people, so let's try and get AR back to a healthy place again. I am open to suggestions for sure and I have plenty myself, but nothing really seems to get done around this place regardless.

Don't get me wrong, AR is a very cool place and could be even better. I owe a great deal of my knowledge to this site, but it's not THE site, it's the people of this site. We are the ones that make this place interesting and informative. We need to breathe some life back into this dormant site. It would be great to see this place thrive with tons of visitors where we can have very good discussions on music, movies and audio. Think about what it would be like to educate the public on what good sound is, or what good music is, or movies etc etc. I think it's time we take the reigns on this, but I cannot do this alone. It will take the combined efforts of all of us to help make this place what it could be.

So who is with me????

...I'd like to hear some of your ideas. I'm involved in so many things that it's hard to concentrate on something that's not high on my priority list. I come to Rave Recordings for music and related info and to poke fun at my friends there. I try to go with the flow but can't commit to something that will take a lot of time because I don't have much of it to go around these days.

Swish

[Rich-n-Texas]

Who let you outta your cage Philly boy??? :biggrin5:

[Rich-n-Texas]

yes, but who will be paying for the prizes? you can't give away stuff you don't have...
I disagree. First prize could be all of Pixelthis's posts since he first started gracing us with his presence. Think about it... it's all here; just a matter of cut-n-pasting into one thread and then PM'ing it to the winner? Simple as that!

Sound good lemme know... :rolleyes:

[Florian]

I was asked to comment on this thread. I have been here for ages, been a moderator and the cause *and sometimes a solution* to some problems. The problem is that there are no special things about this site!! Absolutly none!! There is no real DIY section which has good contributions. This is not a dedicated site to either small boxes, large boxes or ribbons, planars etc.. There are too many sections and not enough acceptance of other peoples choices and heavy critque from some members.

Just rammbling here...but why do you wanna stay here?

[SlumpBuster]

The problem is that there are no special things about this site!! Absolutly none!!

I think I know what your saying, I just don't think your saying it right. I think your trying to say AR is trying to be a "jack of all trades but a master of none." i.e. some sites focus on vintage or DIY or ultra-hi-end or HT, where as AR seems to try to address all but doesn't do any particular one very well.

But there is something special about AR that no other site has: the review section and google prominence. AK, Audioholics, ect are all nice but don't have anything near the review section like AR. How many of us wound up hear because of that review section. I know I did. The question is how to leverage that.

Also, the site is to slow.

[Kam]

i;ve always liked it here. i generally stick with the fav films board, and occasionally venture out into the other forums. but i think, just thinking out loud, that its all about penetrating the market that this site would target. and if they want to get more specific, targeting specific boards.

to be selfish, having movietickets or fandango banners on the fav films board, or having bmg/columbia house banners on the rave recs board, etc.

[Florian]

I think I know what your saying, I just don't think your saying it right. I think your trying to say AR is trying to be a "jack of all trades but a master of none." i.e. some sites focus on vintage or DIY or ultra-hi-end or HT, where as AR seems to try to address all but doesn't do any particular one very well.


Also, the site is to slow.

Yup, thats what i wanted to say. The review section, is not very helpfull to me. Basically, its as worthless as Audio Magzines because everyone has a different "goal" limit etc... For someone a Martin Logan Prodigy would be the holy grail, i personally consider it a start into High End.

I do love the photo galllery, but i erased them all after some jerk off kept on adding negative comments on my pictures out of jealousy.

[Feanor]

I was asked to comment on this thread. I have been here for ages, been a moderator and the cause *and sometimes a solution* to some problems. The problem is that there are no special things about this site!! Absolutly none!! There is no real DIY section which has good contributions. This is not a dedicated site to either small boxes, large boxes or ribbons, planars etc.. There are too many sections and not enough acceptance of other peoples choices and heavy critque from some members.

Just rammbling here...but why do you wanna stay here?

Very true: not much special here. Really, I just like the people, (mostly), plus it's possible to get a word in edge-wise.

As for "not enough acceptance of other peoples choices and heavy critique from some members", maybe, but there are far, far worse examples. To wit, Audio Asylum. There any comment is met with crushing criticism, not to mention sarcasm, contempt for your knowledge/experience, and a cynical view of your motivation for posting in the first place. Also, it' tops in terms of real and quasi-technical types, elitists, snobs, and very wealthy audiophiles. Hmmmm ... !! maybe that's what's special about AA. But do we want to be like that?

[kexodusc]

Very true: not much special here. Really, I just like the people, (mostly), plus it's possible to get a word in edge-wise.

As for "not enough acceptance of other peoples choices and heavy critique from some members", maybe, but there are far, far worse examples. To wit, Audio Asylum. There any comment is met with crushing criticism, not to mention sarcasm, contempt for your knowledge/experience, and a cynical view of your motivation for posting in the first place. Also, it' tops in terms of real and quasi-technical types, elitists, snobs, and very wealthy audiophiles. Hmmmm ... !! maybe that's what's special about AA. But do we want to be like that?

I agree, (especially about the AA cynicism). I visit some other forums regularly under different names - there's so much of the typical tired old audio debates that it becomes nauseating. How many debates about subjectivity/objectivity, cables, and (ugh) brand name wars can one take? Some sites really ruin this hobby for me. I hate every thread that errupts into a flame war about this brand vs that brand, this design vs that design, in response to a call for a recommendation. It happens here to some extent, but far less intense than some other sites. For too many audio forums, this hobby is as much about ego stroking as it is the enjoyment of music and the fun the hobby provides. Too many people find a way to throw an insult (either at an opposing point of view, a product, or person) into their thread responses. Why? What does this accomplish other than ego-masturbation?

I like ar.com more for the diversity, the odd-ball characters,the OT discussions, Fave-films, Rave Recs, and the odd engaging question/ discussion about audio. Ar.com is more like an airport than a destination...you can meet all sorts of people in the lounge in between flights if you chose to. If I want AA I'll go to AA. If I want audioholics, I go there - if I want a forum for DIY stuff, well I've got several I subsribe to as well. Some sites are so big that I never really recognize or "learn" about other members. Here I'm at least familiar with a few dozen personalities. I like the smaller scale of it too - I find some discussions help when 32 different people aren't all chimming in. Easier to follow. Seriously, I doubt any of us use ar.com as our only web forum for audio anything.

Specialty sites have their place - and I hope ar.com never becomes one, because then it just becomes "another one". The problem is like minds tend to flock together there, opinions converge, and they become boring and repetitive in many ways. I agree ar.com could be better. It used to be a lot better, and then it got censor crazy. But the censors have seemed to all but disappear...I would like to see more equipment review threads. More cool discussions about audio's current trends, all of the positives without the negatives. LJ recent exploits to find a new a/v receiver were rather interesting and helpful, for example...interesting thread. Nightflier's new speaker purchase was another.

I like the people here and more than anything, that's what keeps me hanging around. Whatever you guys (or whoever) decide to do with this site, I just hope it doesn't lose some of the good elements.

[basite]

I must agree with Kex,
Myself, I came here about 1 year ago, and started asking questions, which were kindly answered, without any snobism. Half a year later, I also registered on AK, and I like it there too, but it's different, like a vacation home, you can be there, even for very very long periods, but there will be a time when you'll have to come back to your real home, for me that is AR.

I enjoy reading the threads here, and I like the people here too, but it would be nice if there were more of those people...

[nightflier]

It's been said before, but I have some critiques about the advertising here. I have contributed and written code on lots of sites and if there is one thing I've learned is that advertising needs to be better thought out. I have a colleague at Google and he tells me that they have spent years researching this very topic; we talk about this almost every time we get together. My initial observation is that the contract with your ad agency is not working for you. The contract should be a blueprint for a growing relationship - it should be reviewed often and there should be regular meetings to re-establish goals and pre-established targets. Here are some initial thoughts I have:

- The ads take far longer to load than the pages. This is because of too reasons: crappy code and animation. The crappy code is just the ad agency's way of cutting costs and could be negotiated on when a contract is signed. The animation-factor is based on an outdated idea that animations get more click-throughs - that's not the case anymore, according to numerous studies - it actually irritates people more and angers them against the company who's products are being advertised. It certainly no longer translates to increased sales.

- The top advertising banner is only part of the width of the screen on most monitor resolutions. 800 pixels-wide screens are a very small percentage of the viewing public, today. The spaces on either side of the banner are wasted space. It could be used for other ads, or at the very least a themed background image - hmmm, I don't know, how about a graphic that has something to do with audio....

- The 800-pixel wide top ad is so small that if a user actually had this resolution, the right side banner would not be visible. This should be a bargaining point during contract negotiations. Here's a thought (and it could become a "revolution" in the advertising industry LOL): cut the height of the top banner in half and use a full 1024-pixel width. BTW, the "ideal banner height" used now, is also based on outdated research.

- Ads about Las Vegas getaways, life insurance, and childish attempts to get me to notice a lower interest rate because of some dancing silhouette, are a turn off. I'm here for audio-video, and would much rather see ads about that. Sometimes it almost feels like this site is about something else and I forget which one of my discussion forums I am on.

- I've heard all the excuses: "it's expensive to find the right companies", or "this is all we're getting from this ad agency," and the ubiquitous: "there are not enough companies willing to advertise in your <blank> market sector." Well then threaten to fire this ad agency! They are not the only game in town. Bottom line is they are not hustling hard enough for you.

- Website managers often forget that it is in the interest of the ad agency to find better advertisers because they make far more money on click-throughs and resulting sales. This is a bargaining chip for negotiations. With that in mind, the ad agency should lower its fees for industry-specific advertisers because those will generate more click-throughs.

There are other ways to advertise: look for an ad agency that has a fresher, more modern approach on advertising. I don't mean to sound like a shill for Google, but their AdWords approach really does work in the long run. Ask potential ad agencies to make proposals that demonstrate more subtle and better targeted advertising. Ask for current, future, and potential client lists. Look for an agency that sees you as a partner that is looking to grow with you: they should demonstrate a vested interest in your success. They should also offer projections about this success, projections that need to be reiterated as performance targets in the written proposal, from which the final contract is generated.

Evaluate how well they understand this industry. Your current ad agency may rave about what they've done for Martha Stewart or Macy's, but what do they really know about audio and video? Do they understand the future of this industry: what product families are gaining prominence and what product families are fading? Do they have a basic understanding of associated industries and market sectors such as computers, electronics, automation, product distribution channels, heck, even an understanding of raw materials availability? Everybody knows that most of the stuff is made in the far east, but do they even know where most of the audio-video products are designed and developed? Do they have even an inkling of the traditions, reputations, and cultures associated with high-end gear (Opera, Gryphon, Harbeth, come to mind). I'm not saying that I expect them to know this stuff as well as the readers here, but they should have some idea about it - and some of these should definitely be part of their presentation.

These are just some first impressions, and it leads me to one of two conclusions: either your ad agency is not working hard enough for you, or it is horribly outdated and should be put out to pasture. Of course another possibility is that someone dropped the ball in finding this agency, but I'll leave that to another discussion. Who knows, maybe it's just simple economics and AR just isn't that important of a client. Frankly I don't know - but what I do know is that a loss in visitors hurts the site as much as the ad agency.

[L.J.]

I agree with Feanor, Kex and who ever else made a "I like the people here" comment. I lurk a few sites but don't post there. I really don't care for all the traffic. Sometimes it does seem a little slow here, but it's never bothered me.

[kexodusc]

I've never noticed a speed issue, and it's safe to say I visit here a few times every day.

[Swish]

Who let you outta your cage Philly boy??? :biggrin5:

Well, I like most Philly sports and go to a fair number of shows there since they get lots of my favorite indie rock bands (The National, Beulah, etc.), but I live near Hershey, PA, so I resemble that comment.

G Swish

[PeruvianSkies]

As I had hoped it would seem that the majority of us here all the feel the same way and in fact many of us possess the ability to help make that change, the only problem is that we need to get organized and make a stand. If we can organize our efforts we can hopefully see some changes around here. Obviously we need a different management structure to see the changes carried out, and the one way to get that done is to figure out HOW more of us can contribute to those causes AND get some better/different advertising to enable more/better funding.

Of course the function of a 'mutiny' is to say that WE are not going to take this current situation anymore unless (said things) change. What I am basically hearing is that we are not getting enough people to stick around long enough and that we don't offer enough for those that are currently here. Maybe a better structure of the forums as well as some new creative ways to keep those that are here around longer. It also seems that many of you have voiced your opinions and thoughts before and nothing has been changed, which puts up a few red flags to me. If that is the case, than drastic changes need to be made and that can only be done if we work together as one. What would happen to AR if the to 90% of the posts/hits and activity were to suddenly go away? Because about 90% of the activity derives from about 20-30 of us. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!

Let's keep this discussion rolling as we progress towards a hopefully better AR.

[Swish]

Just rammbling here...but why do you wanna stay here?

I started visiting Rave Recordings years ago...probably about 8 or 9 as best I can recall...and was hesitant to post right away because they seemed to have their own little clique going. Once I got up the nerve, I was met with a ton of 'welcome' responses and I've never looked back. My wife and I (she doesn't post) have actually met 5 RR friends in the real world...one in New Orleans (along with his wife), one in NYC, and three in Toronto (one brought her husband and another brought his wife). We had a great time with all of them and found they were all very genuine and exactly as I expected them to be, just a nice bunch of people who know how to have fun.

Along with the great music discoveries, I also get some of my best advice here as well; digital cameras, scanners, web cams, you name it, but I get it from the members, not the review section, although I have checked out some audio equipment. We have some of the smartest people on RR and I go to them before anywhere else, and my results are usually very satisfying. They're also very generous and share their music and their ideas freely.

What else can I say?

Swish

[PeruvianSkies]

I started visiting Rave Recordings years ago...probably about 8 or 9 as best I can recall...and was hesitant to post right away because they seemed to have their own little clique going. Once I got up the nerve, I was met with a ton of 'welcome' responses and I've never looked back. My wife and I (she doesn't post) have actually met 5 RR friends in the real world...one in New Orleans (along with his wife), one in NYC, and three in Toronto (one brought her husband and another brought his wife). We had a great time with all of them and found they were all very genuine and exactly as I expected them to be, just a nice bunch of people who know how to have fun.

Along with the great music discoveries, I also get some of my best advice here as well; digital cameras, scanners, web cams, you name it, but I get it from the members, not the review section, although I have checked out some audio equipment. We have some of the smartest people on RR and I go to them before anywhere else, and my results are usually very satisfying. They're also very generous and share their music and their ideas freely.

What else can I say?

Swish

Yes, and it would be great if we can get more people to have a similar experience as yours and I feel the same. This place has been very beneficial for me, but I also hope that I can make it beneficial for others. Some people come here to GET something, while others like to GIVE out something....ideally we want the best of both. It's great to be able to give advice and discussion, but also great to get it in return, which many of us have.

How can we keep people here? How can we keep those that just come and make ONE post about how to help them set up their stuff and then the leave like a stranger in the night. If we can keep more people around here and ramp up the discussions as well as add some diversity and creativity than this place could really be awesome. I would like to see more activity in the PHOTO GALLERY as well.

I am prepared to do whatever I can to help this site out. I am on this site for a large majority of my day and therefore I feel that I can contribute in some way, shape or form. I am willing to do what I can, but I need to figure out the action steps needed to make that happen.

[mlsstl]

I've yet to really figure out if I have interests that mesh with others around here. I've tried to participate in (and even started) a few threads but apparently my take on things is not aligned with any one else's head. I've got about 38 years in this hobby, a basement full of audio test equipment from my more active building days, time on the professional side (sound engineer and stereo store manager years ago), a healthy growing and varied music collection (over 18,000 tunes), a current system and good experience in the computer side of music and just don't see much that grabs my attention. And, what I have to offer doesn't seem to grab anyone else's.

As someone else indicated, there does seem to be a lack of focus here. A bit of stereo, a dose of HT, some music, a hint of DIY and so on, but just no strong current that draws people in and lets them know they're in the right place.

There are a lot of great people here (and it is nice to be away from some of the nut-case name calling one sees elsewhere) but in summary, here's my two cents - the place needs a stronger identity.

[royphil345]

I don't know...

I've always liked this site a little better than most audio sites because the people, for the most part anyway, seem to be a little more level-headed and open minded... Intelligent people who can think for themselves... Speak based on experience... not what they read on the internet yesterday... One site in particular makes me nuts because once an idea becomes accepted as being the "concensus"... (of a bunch of 13-year olds no doubt) no matter how completely wrong it is... You can't say anything that doesn't completely agree without being attacked en masse by everyone. So... A busy board overpopulated by a pack of wild dogs isn't always a good thing....

I think one of the biggest problems is that there are a few other sources for user reviews now. That was always the backbone of Audio REVIEW. and... as much as I hate to say it... their pages load quicker and the reviews are easier to search for, find and navigate.

I think people are finding consumer reviews a little less helpful too. People know now that a person will always be excited about a new purchase and it takes time to find the faults in things... User reviews are great though for spotting products likely to arrive defective, etc...

Branching out in a new direction may help... Offering some guides, etc...

IMHO... Getting the pages to load a little quicker would be job #1. This has DEFINITELY decreased my number of visits to the site lately.

I hope Audio Review is around a good long time. I've had a great time and learned much here over the years. Met some great people... Wish them much good luck and success!!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Well, I like most Philly sports and go to a fair number of shows there since they get lots of my favorite indie rock bands (The National, Beulah, etc.), but I live near Hershey, PA, so I resemble that comment.

G Swish
Didn't know you were that far west of West Philly Swish.

You know, that experience you had with the lightning strike and subsquent equipment replacement story you talked about in RR was, as far as I know in my short time here a unique experience and, IMO would have been a good conversation had you posted it in a more relevant forum. I realize that's just a small observation in the big scheme of things here but nevertheless it seems to me that it would've stirred more participation.

If you ask me, I'd say this is a PS power grab attempt. He wants to get his hands on that member delete switch. :ihih:

[topspeed]

The indentity problem, which I agree is the main concern, can be found in the name: AudioREVIEW. Royphil hit the nail on the head, this site is based on user reviews. It would be interesting to see how many members found the forums from the review section, because my guess is the majority of you nutballs did exactly that.

The key to increasing forum traffic is to increase traffic to the review section, an area that needs to be completely revamped. If I'm looking for electronics reviews, I'll check CNET, not AR. That needs to change. There were efforts to do "professional" reviews, but that died after only a few. There were also efforts to give away prizes, but I have no idea what happened there. My opinion is that we don't need to bribe people to come here. All you need to do is give them a good reason, that being the quest for knowledge.

The AR home page needs a complete makeover. It needs to be more graphic, offer more pics, easier accessibility to ratings, and most importantly more comparisons. When someone is shopping for an AVR, they want to know about a particular unit and how it compares to others in its price class. If they want user opinions, there should be "one click" link that dumps them into the correct forum. AR is slow, not real user friendly, and as attractive as a WW2 frigate. (Who thought of grey anyway?!?)

There is a very good crew of people here, but the reality is we've lost far too many of the "characters" that made AR an entertaining place. Were there fights? Oh, yeah. Were they entertaining? Unquestionably. In an effort to quell the flames, management turned the site into a big bowl of vanilla ice cream. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you add some chocolate topping or cherries every once in a while to break up the mundanity. I'm not saying it should be the pissing match it was before (Mtrycrafts was particularly infuriating), but once the revamped homepage and reviews sections starts feeding new life into the forums, how 'bout we loosen the reigns and take a "wait and see" approach?

Like most, I still consider AR as my "audio home" of sorts. I'll be the first to acknowledge that I don't post nearly as much as before. Whereas before I'd stop by a few times a day, now I'll take a peek maybe once a week at best. Why? Less time is at the top of the list. Second would be a bit of waning interest. Many of my favorite places to audition gear have either gone HT or out of business all together. It's just not as easy to hear new and interesting gear as it once was and I don't believe in rendering an opinion on stuff I have no experience with.

[kexodusc]

The indentity problem, which I agree is the main concern, can be found in the name: AudioREVIEW. Royphil hit the nail on the head, this site is based on user reviews. It would be interesting to see how many members found the forums from the review section, because my guess is the majority of you nutballs did exactly that.

The key to increasing forum traffic is to increase traffic to the review section, an area that needs to be completely revamped. If I'm looking for electronics reviews, I'll check CNET, not AR. That needs to change. There were efforts to do "professional" reviews, but that died after only a few. There were also efforts to give away prizes, but I have no idea what happened there. My opinion is that we don't need to bribe people to come here. All you need to do is give them a good reason, that being the quest for knowledge.

The AR home page needs a complete makeover. It needs to be more graphic, offer more pics, easier accessibility to ratings, and most importantly more comparisons. When someone is shopping for an AVR, they want to know about a particular unit and how it compares to others in its price class. If they want user opinions, there should be "one click" link that dumps them into the correct forum. AR is slow, not real user friendly, and as attractive as a WW2 frigate. (Who thought of grey anyway?!?)

There is a very good crew of people here, but the reality is we've lost far too many of the "characters" that made AR an entertaining place. Were there fights? Oh, yeah. Were they entertaining? Unquestionably. In an effort to quell the flames, management turned the site into a big bowl of vanilla ice cream. There's nothing wrong with that, as long as you add some chocolate topping or cherries every once in a while to break up the mundanity. I'm not saying it should be the pissing match it was before (Mtrycrafts was particularly infuriating), but once the revamped homepage and reviews sections starts feeding new life into the forums, how 'bout we loosen the reigns and take a "wait and see" approach?

Like most, I still consider AR as my "audio home" of sorts. I'll be the first to acknowledge that I don't post nearly as much as before. Whereas before I'd stop by a few times a day, now I'll take a peek maybe once a week at best. Why? Less time is at the top of the list. Second would be a bit of waning interest. Many of my favorite places to audition gear have either gone HT or out of business all together. It's just not as easy to hear new and interesting gear as it once was and I don't believe in rendering an opinion on stuff I have no experience with.
Yeah!

More product reviews, and comparisons. Less arguments for the sake of arguing!!!

Sad, I read my own post, and I realize, I hang out here more for the personalities than anything audio now.
Is this just going to be a ***** thread, or is there anything we can do about it?
Unless someone's got a phone number to someone in a position of authority, I'm sceptical we'll get anywhere.
Start the rally cry!!!!

WE'RE HERE! WE'RE QU--uhh-quite interested in improvement!!!

[Rich-n-Texas]

IIRC, this site is owned by a marketing group right? Good like trying to get them to change it's structure/appearance IMO.

[Rich-n-Texas]

The indentity problem, which I agree is the main concern, can be found in the name: AudioREVIEW. Royphil hit the nail on the head, this site is based on user reviews. It would be interesting to see how many members found the forums from the review section, because my guess is the majority of you nutballs did exactly that.
Nutballs huh? This coming from the guy who drives around in a broken BMW with a broken speedo. :cornut:

[PeruvianSkies]

If you ask me, I'd say this is a PS power grab attempt. He wants to get his hands on that member delete switch. :ihih:

Guilty as charged.....hey, wouldn't it be better to have someone at least throwing SOME switches, rather than just letting things slide and slide and slide. No offense to the Mods, but this place needs a makeover.

[Woochifer]

I think this site very well might have seen one "purge" too many to be the kind of community that some of us would like. Indeed a lot of bad apples got tossed out, but a lot of other very knowledgeable and active regulars went out the door along with them. I'll admit that some of the color on this site has faded in the last couple of years.

Count me as one of those posters who has stuck around here because I just like hanging out with a lot of the regulars. I sporadically post on the AVS Forum, but that site gets so swamped with traffic that it's impossible to maintain any semblance of a coherent conversation unless you're glued to that site for hours at a time. That place works more like a chat room than a forum, and I just don't have time for it. I'll also occasionally post on the Home Theater Shack, but that site has more industry professionals administering the discussions and seems more seriously focused on technical topics. Great site if you want solid topical discussions, but my endurance for purely technical topics has waned quite a bit lately given that I'm not really in an upgrading mode right now.

I know that the site administrators on AR have trial ballooned several different ideas to try and revamp the site. Things like posting "official" equipment and disc reviews, FAQs/how-to guides, etc. But, there's only so much you can do when 1) the majority of the regulars that would be recruited to write up the content have jobs and other commitments (and AR's pool of regulars is not very large to begin with); and 2) AR's staff is not especially large and is primarily focused on keeping the site up and running, and making sure that enough ads sell to keep the lights on and the servers churning. No one at AR is dedicated squarely on editorial content and/or community.

Even if we collectively agree on a plan to improve AR, I'm just not sure that the site has the resources to implement it. Remember that parent company ConsumerReview has already gone through one bankruptcy reorganization. And compared to other sites, AR has considerably less participation from the site administrators/owners who often set the tone for how the discussions go (for better or worse).

As it stands, this site is driven and defined by the participants (again, for better or worse). The quality of the discussions depend on participation, and if a site cannot attract new blood to take up the slack left when regular participants leave or pull back, then the community as a whole stagnates. I think that's the primary issue with this site right now. My understanding is that AR is one of the most heavily trafficked audio/home theater sites on the web, and there probably are ways of tweaking the site to better encourage participation, like for example posting actual news articles and industry news releases to spur discussions (this is how sites like Ecoustics, Audioholics, AudioRevolution, and High Def Digest direct traffic to their forums -- put the news article/synopsis on the home page, and provide a comments link).

I've stuck with this site since 2001, and while I don't plan on leaving anytime soon, I also don't see myself participating with nearly the same frequency as in years past. (Life changes have a way of reprioritizing my hobbies and how I spend my time.)

[PeruvianSkies]

This thread thus far has already received a great deal of responses and it's less than 24 hours at this point, which tells me that it's not a matter of people NOT wanting to join in with the discussion of AR so much, but rather having something worthwhile to talk about. Perhaps for some of us we are bored with the lack of depth most of these discussions entail or the repetitive nature of many of the posts, such as "Which Sub Should I Buy?" After being around this place for nearly 2 years and a member for about 1.5 years I must say that I too mostly come back for the people and to get some ideas from everyone. Plus, this is my source of news when it comes to things like Blu-ray. I also enjoy the film discussions from time to time and thanks to Smokey ...the polls.

However, I didn't 'JOIN' the site until I felt like I could benefit from the site and that was being able to post pictures of my setup. Once I did that I was hooked on the photo gallery section and actually spent quite a long time in there before I even ventured to the forum section. Then it took another few months before I began being a more regular person there, of course in the early days I had a few tiffs here and there with a few folks (like Flo) who I have since come to understand and appreciate a bit more. So this might be a good time to ask these questions....


1. What brought you to AR in the first place?
2. What made you want to stay around or contribute to AR?
3. Do you come here just to keep up with the conversations or do you primarily come here when you actually have something to talk about?
4. What would be ONE thing that you could change in order to make you want to stay here longer or contribute more often?

[Mr Peabody]

Who actually does run this board? I mean some one must receive the checks and post the advertisements. The site is extremely slow changing pages and is not user friendly. My goodness the last time I tried to post a review it took me forever. Between trying to figure out what to do and where to go, and then the length of time to go from one thing to another. Somebody gave us a fix to do on our computer, turning off ActivX which helped a lot. But newbies may not know to do that. Posting Classifieds is difficult as well. I think a strong classified area would be a good attraction but that would require some policing of scammers. I don't like the links to the AR content are so small compared to all the other print and advertising on the first page. I saved the discussion page to my favorites so I never have to go to the front page. If you want users, AR has to be user friendly.

The reviews brought me here years ago when I started upgrading. I actually have won a prize here for posting reviews. I won a DVD player and some movies. It's the people who keep me here and my love to talk about the hobby. When AR changed to the new thread structure I was going to leave. My computer skills are limited and I guess I don't take to change well. I owe a debt of gratitude to Topspeed for encouraging me to stay. So I tried the new threads and eventually got used to it. So you have him to blame for having to put up with me.

It's funny that it was mentioned AR needs a face lift when Eric just reworked it not too long ago. I wish I could find the thread where Eric started it about the new changes and there was a big bunch of members brown nosing how good it looked yatta yatta. I think this was around the same time he was saying he was looking for reviewers, so some couldn't wait to do some stroking.

It's funny our membership is down because after we lost a few members the site was a lot more pleasant to participate in. We can disagree without getting into who can hit the lowest below the belt and personal attacks. It's nice to be able to exchange ideas in a quasi orderly manner. Many here of a great sense of humor and willingness to help. I think more of the forums need to mirror the atmosphere of the Rave Recordings forum. But it's the people there who make it what it is.

We all need to bring what we learn and run across on the web back to AR to start new threads with it. News bits and new products etc. Let's not be shy. You never know what idea will generate a discussion and what will flop, just throw it against the wall to see what sticks. You never know who might be weighting for a nuclear amp.

It takes a while to get the feel for the board and how to take what people say, let's be tolerant with newer posters and give them the chance to grow.

With all the criticisms I like AR and participating in the discussions and when I'm able doing a review. Actually this is the only board I participate in. I'd like to say it's because I love you guys but.... really, do you know how long it would take me to learn a new board :)

[PeruvianSkies]

It sounds like we need some more ways to generate excitement into coming here, AND most importantly a way to keep people here who truly wish to contribute to the site, not just trolls. I think that this is a fairly easy site to use for the most part, especially in comparison to other sites that are just terrible with their formatting and such.

We have talented people here, I know Flo does some web work and I think Nightflier talked about programming at one point. It would be cool if we could collaborate some awesome ideas together, I think what would really be cool is a chat room for us to all talk in together instead of in this format since sometimes we are nearly chatting anyway with the rapid responses.

[nightflier]

Here's a couple more ideas that I think will improve the quality of the site:

- Add more simple to answer "short answer", "yes/no", and "1-5 ratings" questions for people writing reviews. For those of us who have limited time to write these, it would be relatively easy to just click on a few items and write a short blurb, then to have to write a full dissertation on a particular component.

- While I agree that the galleries really add a lot, here's another section that I think people would appreciate: a documentation section, with the option of posting pics. I can't tell you many times I've pulled my hair out because a particular company won't post documentation or pics on their products, especially the older stuff. PS Audio obviously comes to mind, here. And some manufacturers like Onkyo, actually expect people to pay for older gear documentation! Now I know there are sites out there that sell manuals, but I wouldn't mind seeing a scanned brochure, promotional ad, a PDF file or even a pic of the back side of some of that older gear. For those of us in the market for second-hand components, this would be an invaluable resource, especially if it was linked to the reviews.

- Some people have mentioned graphics as a way to jazz things up, well from a programming perspective, I can think of one way to make this more interesting: make them dynamic. For example, instead of listing a poster's location with text, show a little map of the world with a pin of where they're posting from. Instead of just listing the number of posts, how about a tiny bar graph comparing this poster's total with 2-3 regulars. I also think the member information pages could be more dynamic: for example including a little thermometer graphic showing how many posts this member posted that day, and how that compares to other "hot" days. How about a graphical word count? After all, it's easy to boost one's numbers with one-line posts, but there's also something to be said for those who write well thought-out explanations and discussions.

- And while this will have to be thought out a little, I would welcome comments and ideas from the manufacturers, designers, and engineers who build the equipment. I always like to read what the the manufacturer have to say about the reviews in the back of Stereophile magazine. It's this kind of back-and-forth that engenders improvements. Now I know we don't want this site to be influenced by the manufacturers, but maybe they could have their own separate section where they could respond to some of the comments made on these boards. I often wonder if they are reading these posts and I must admit, there are times that I really wish they did.

- Someone already mentioned this, but how about a "new product announcement section" on this website? This could probably be generated automatically w/o too much programmer interaction if a standard submission format is created.

- Finally, I've noticed that these forums are heavily US-focussed. Maybe we could look for ways to get more people from across the pond and elsewhere to participate? While we're at it, how about finding ways to include women into these discussions, too? Don't they have sharper hearing? And jokes about WAFs notwithstanding, maybe women have a thing or two to to teach us about design?

Anyhow, those are some of my thoughts this evening. It's after 11pm here and I'm still toiling away at work (server crash). I really do need to get home....

[PeruvianSkies]

Here's a couple more ideas that I think will improve the quality of the site:

- Add more simple to answer "short answer", "yes/no", and "1-5 ratings" questions for people writing reviews. For those of us who have limited time to write these, it would be relatively easy to just click on a few items and write a short blurb, then to have to write a full dissertation on a particular component.

- While I agree that the galleries really add a lot, here's another section that I think people would appreciate: a documentation section, with the option of posting pics. I can't tell you many times I've pulled my hair out because a particular company won't post documentation or pics on their products, especially the older stuff. PS Audio obviously comes to mind, here. And some manufacturers like Onkyo, actually expect people to pay for older gear documentation! Now I know there are sites out there that sell manuals, but I wouldn't mind seeing a scanned brochure, promotional ad, a PDF file or even a pic of the back side of some of that older gear. For those of us in the market for second-hand components, this would be an invaluable resource, especially if it was linked to the reviews.

- Some people have mentioned graphics as a way to jazz things up, well from a programming perspective, I can think of one way to make this more interesting: make them dynamic. For example, instead of listing a poster's location with text, show a little map of the world with a pin of where they're posting from. Instead of just listing the number of posts, how about a tiny bar graph comparing this poster's total with 2-3 regulars. I also think the member information pages could be more dynamic: for example including a little thermometer graphic showing how many posts this member posted that day, and how that compares to other "hot" days. How about a graphical word count? After all, it's easy to boost one's numbers with one-line posts, but there's also something to be said for those who write well thought-out explanations and discussions.

- And while this will have to be thought out a little, I would welcome comments and ideas from the manufacturers, designers, and engineers who build the equipment. I always like to read what the the manufacturer have to say about the reviews in the back of Stereophile magazine. It's this kind of back-and-forth that engenders improvements. Now I know we don't want this site to be influenced by the manufacturers, but maybe they could have their own separate section where they could respond to some of the comments made on these boards. I often wonder if they are reading these posts and I must admit, there are times that I really wish they did.

- Someone already mentioned this, but how about a "new product announcement section" on this website? This could probably be generated automatically w/o too much programmer interaction if a standard submission format is created.

- Finally, I've noticed that these forums are heavily US-focussed. Maybe we could look for ways to get more people from across the pond and elsewhere to participate? While we're at it, how about finding ways to include women into these discussions, too? Don't they have sharper hearing? And jokes about WAFs notwithstanding, maybe women have a thing or two to to teach us about design?

Anyhow, those are some of my thoughts this evening. It's after 11pm here and I'm still toiling away at work (server crash). I really do need to get home....

Those are some really fun and great ideas. I like the idea of making the site a bit more dynamic with some of the current things going on, just ramp them up a bit. It's always great to make this place a bit more diverse and interactive.

I think that AR in it's current form has a lot going for it, but it just needs to be streamlined a bit more and much more functional. Plus, fun. I think that we could incorporate some of those ideas very easily and really help ramp up the overall involvement of this place. Maybe if we get some more females around here we could dress this place up a bit from the cold, sterile, blue and gray too! lol.

[PeruvianSkies]

http://www.flagline.com/images/pirates/mutiny-shirt.jpg

[pixelthis]

I've yet to really figure out if I have interests that mesh with others around here. I've tried to participate in (and even started) a few threads but apparently my take on things is not aligned with any one else's head. I've got about 38 years in this hobby, a basement full of audio test equipment from my more active building days, time on the professional side (sound engineer and stereo store manager years ago), a healthy growing and varied music collection (over 18,000 tunes), a current system and good experience in the computer side of music and just don't see much that grabs my attention. And, what I have to offer doesn't seem to grab anyone else's.

As someone else indicated, there does seem to be a lack of focus here. A bit of stereo, a dose of HT, some music, a hint of DIY and so on, but just no strong current that draws people in and lets them know they're in the right place.

There are a lot of great people here (and it is nice to be away from some of the nut-case name calling one sees elsewhere) but in summary, here's my two cents - the place needs a stronger identity.

Another one who knows a little too much for this site.
I have been doing this for four decades, but one poster said I needed more "experience"
with turntables, when the only choice when I started WAS a turntable!
I am a bit rusty on the actual electronics side but am still quite knowledgable,
but a lot of stuff is anti-intuitive, try to post it and you get attacked as a "know-nothing".
I was even attacked for posting info on Yamahas sound bar, something that has been
on the market for a year, instead of accusing me of making things up all the attacker had to do was go to Yamahas site and read up on this thing!
And Mr peabody is quite polite but I still think hes' a bit leery of what I have posted about a sets resolution.
And the predictions I have made, which I beleive are sound, have been jeered, I have been
accused of stating these as fact, but they are just predictions!
But they have served the purpose of stirring things up a bit.
And peruvian schizoid, you wanna "improve" this site? Well, no more pictures of your ugly
mug, howzabout?
I mean, GOD, I just ate!:(

[PeruvianSkies]

Another one who knows a little too much for this site.
I have been doing this for four decades, but one poster said I needed more "experience"
with turntables, when the only choice when I started WAS a turntable!
I am a bit rusty on the actual electronics side but am still quite knowledgable,
but a lot of stuff is anti-intuitive, try to post it and you get attacked as a "know-nothing".
I was even attacked for posting info on Yamahas sound bar, something that has been
on the market for a year, instead of accusing me of making things up all the attacker had to do was go to Yamahas site and read up on this thing!
And Mr peabody is quite polite but I still think hes' a bit leery of what I have posted about a sets resolution.
And the predictions I have made, which I beleive are sound, have been jeered, I have been
accused of stating these as fact, but they are just predictions!
But they have served the purpose of stirring things up a bit.
And peruvian schizoid, you wanna "improve" this site? Well, no more pictures of your ugly
mug, howzabout?
I mean, GOD, I just ate!:(

Let me clarify a few things for you here. First, no one here really gives a hoot about what you say. In fact, you have the lowest reputation on this site currently because A. you don't know what you are talking about B. you think you know everything and C you come across as this ALL KNOWING person and it irritates those who know better.

So now that we have established that much, let's continue here a bit. Just because you have 'experience' with something doesn't mean you know everything that there is and this hobby changes a lot over time and you might THINK you know something, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true. Your OPINION by the way isn't the ABSOLUTE in anything. However, what irritates us the most is that you try and persuade people into thinking that what you say (again your OPINIONS) are the ONLY way and the ABSOLUTE way.

To give a few examples of this: LCD and Blu-ray. For whatever reason (my guess is your own delusion) you somehow KNOW that those two things are the ONLY thing that last and that you can somehow see into the future. It's one thing if you want to support those two things, but don't come around here claiming that they are BETTER than anything else yadda yadda yah. You don't know if they will last just like anyone else does. Maybe they will and maybe they won't.

Finally, let me address the 'pictures' jab that you threw out. Here's an idea...why don't you post some pictures of all of your gear? Hmmm. Are you too ashamed of what people might say? Or maybe it doesn't even exist to begin with. I am not ashamed to show off what I have or what I look like. I could care less what you think about me or my equipment. Others seem to enjoy it. You are in the minority here and you aren't making too many friends that quick. However, you for some reason think that I am the one that is crazy....well, than everyone else must be too because you are the only person that everyone here pretty much feels the same about. We have even tried to be patient with you and let you rant and rave, but you have pushed far too many buttons. You might be 50 years old, but you are too immature and one of the worst trolls I've ever seen around here. Now, either act right or get out!

[PeruvianSkies]

http://www.pixelthis.shutterchance.com/

nice outfit pixelthis!

[Bernd]

.....stock me thinks. A very good thread. I believe it is important to do a little soul searching now and then.Due to my work commitments my postings during the summer months drop right off (thank god some will say).
I stumbled into here as a PC virgin via the photo gallery. I agree with Kex's comment that AR resembles an Airport lounge. In my opinion AR displays above anything else a rich mixture off tolerance to other members. I met some great people on here and am proud to consider some of them my friends. Discovered some great music and generosity in RR which is full of smart and knowledgable people. As for hardware discussions, yes it can get a little stale especially if you have read enough threads about cables, etc. Never the less it is important to keep these going to attract new members and for me it's very enjoyable to follow someone else's audio journey.
I don't think that incentives will attract the members we would like, most likely one would get trophy hunters. I am also not sure that there is a way to force people to join. Either one joins or one does not. I also enjoy that we do not have a blinkered outlook and don't very often display a very narrow horizion. I would not enjoy to be on a "high end" (whatever that is) or any other specialist only forum.:sleep:
The diversity and the exchange of points of views about other happenings outside audio makes AR the place it is.The sometimes talking of absolute rubbish by some members (I do enough of it and am guilty as charged) lightens the daily ritual a little. I welcome it. All we can do is to continue, and never lose sight that this forum is only as good as the members posts.
As was said before. I consider this small corner of the Universe part of my home.
Phew. Heavy for a saturday morn.
Have a great weekend one and all.

Peace

:16:

[thekid]

I do what I can-when I can, but between my limited knowledge and travel schedule, it is not much. As had been said the people are the main reason I hang out here. The flame wars and brand bashing do become tiresome but like any open forum people bring their own agenda to the table so as you get to know the personalities you get some insight into their perspective/agenda's.

I think Night has a good idea about some sort of easy-standardized review system. Point-Click and Comment. I think if you combined that with a comment section you could create something unique to most of these sites. It might add greater diversity of opinion and equipment.

[westcott]

I think I know what your saying, I just don't think your saying it right. I think your trying to say AR is trying to be a "jack of all trades but a master of none." i.e. some sites focus on vintage or DIY or ultra-hi-end or HT, where as AR seems to try to address all but doesn't do any particular one very well.

But there is something special about AR that no other site has: the review section and google prominence. AK, Audioholics, ect are all nice but don't have anything near the review section like AR. How many of us wound up hear because of that review section. I know I did. The question is how to leverage that.

Also, the site is to slow.

You nailed it right on the head. Maybe a link to the forum prominently placed on each product to a dedicated forum for that product or just to the forum itself. This is where google and other search engines are picking up the site.

Also, although we have a member gallery, the way it is presented is not conducive to viewing. I would like to see it change to a thumbnail format to make it easier for people to decide whos gallery they want to investigate further.

I would also suggest we whittle down all the categories. It just spreads us out and too thin and some categories just do not get the proper attention from the few of us who contribute. You can't help someone if you do not see their questions.

I would also like to see a resource center for white paper links, room acoustics, ground loop solutions, cabling how to, seating distance for audio, viewing distance calculator for video, speaker placement, audio and video calibration, room mode calculator, etc. If you have tools that people find helpful and come back to the site repeatedly to use, some will stay longer and longer and even join.

I am sure I can think of other ideas given time but we must leverage what brings people to the site in the first place.

[kexodusc]

I don't think that incentives will attract the members we would like, most likely one would get trophy hunters. I am also not sure that there is a way to force people to join.

Agreed!


I would also like to see a resource center for white paper links, room acoustics, ground loop solutions, cabling how to, seating distance for audio, viewing distance calculator for video, speaker placement, audio and video calibration, room mode calculator, etc. If you have tools that people find helpful and come back to the site repeatedly to use, some will stay longer and longer and even join.]
Yeah, this is one of the few forums I've visited without useful how-to's, faq's, stickies, etc...
There's been some attempt at this in the past, but surely it wouldn't be too hard to coordinate something - a lot of us would volunteer to write/research a topic or two I'm sure.

[Mr Peabody]

I thought we did have pretty good participation from outside the U.S. I'd guess about 50/50

I'm not into programming but be careful with getting too graphical. I don't think we want to end up with 2 versions of the website, one regular and one text for accessibility. I've noticed some large websites have done this, like Amazon and government websites. Text is better for hand held computer devices and adaptive software. For me, it's not a sites look as much as the content, is it something I want to read, and user friendly. As an example of what not to do, I'd like to visit the Krell website to see what's new if I could but that site is unuseable. It may be because of it being all graphics or some type of new web format. www.krellonline.com. I do use adaptive software and their site I can't get around in.

I don't agree with the being more focused issue. Why would we want to narrow the site down to one specialized forum? This is the right place, just post your question where it belongs. I'm perfectly happy with going to which ever forum that covers my question or new info. The "new post" link easily shows what has been visited lately. If we get more focused we would lose more people. There's no reason for me to stay if this became a planar site or just HT. Many of us have both stereo and HT, computers, portables or whatever. I feel being "more focused" is one of the worst suggestions given. The diverse topics is a plus.

We need to be careful how we oppose some one and be more open minded in order to keep those with more experience here. Hermanv is an EE and has built his own preamps and speakers. MLSTL has experience, Mr. Anderson seems to be our resident computer guy. Edtyct, who I haven't seen here is a long time was big into video. We've disagreed on a topic before but we need to try to keep our knowledgeable folks here. With this being said, it's not how many years you've been doing the hobby that gives you knowledge, Pix., I've been doing the hi fi thing for well over 25 years but it wasn't until maybe the last 10 when I started getting experience with true high end gear and HT. I don't profess to know everything but I start to doubt ones knowledge when they come to the board for the first time and start making wild blanket statements. I had some type of turntable since I was in elementary school collecting 45's, my eyes was not opened until several years back I tried my first Rega, before that, you would have gotten different answers from me. So it's not the years, it's the hands on experience and knowledge. There's turntables, and then, there's turntables. You have to show some respect because not everyone with experience will come on here and start blowing how they are this and that. If one has been into audio for 40 years and never had more than a receiver and speakers, your knowledge is going to be limited to what you've experienced despite the 40 years. We also have to keep in mind how subjective this hobby is and respect that sometimes there's no right or wrong.

For instance, Pix, there is a fair majority of people here who have at least some tube gear in their system and more with tube experience. When you come out of the blue and start spouting off that tubes are relegated to the 30's and a dead technology, you have to expect to lose some credibility fast. The same with turntables. Because you may not have heard a good set up yet doesn't mean there aren't any. If those of us say there are good tube gear and turntables, why wouldn't you start to think, well, maybe they are onto something, or, maybe they've heard something I haven't? But that's not your way and that's why you seem to have become a target. Your credibility is gone and no amount of arguing and name calling will get that back. If you decide to stick it out, the only way to get back on track is by choosing your posts wisely and trying to add substance to the conversation. I could care less if you ever hear another tube amp but don't be condecending to me, or anyone else, because it's my choice. I've had some good solid state gear and now I have tubes, I made my choice based on what I have actually heard and what I enjoy. So quit whining, because, I know MLSTL, and sir, you are no MLSTL.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Is everybody aware of the sticky at the top of the News & Rumors forum where you can add products? The link still works; I was able to fill in the form although I didn't submit it, and manufacturers also have the opportunity. The point is... let's make sure we're all aware of the existing resources so our criticisms and suggestions have more validity. Although, like I said... are they falling on deaf ears?

[E-Stat]

When you come out of the blue and start spouting off that tubes are relegated to the 30's and a dead technology, you have to expect to lose some credibility fast. The same with turntables. Because you may not have heard a good set up yet doesn't mean there aren't any.
I had a similar disagreement way back with poster Woodman regarding power cords. He said resolutely there could be no possible way different cords could influence the sound. While he had been a TV technician for fifty? years, he had zero exposure to the systems I was referring. When I pointed out the RF filtering aspects, he responded that such cords were no longer power cords. Right.

I think It is important to know what you don't know. I value direct exposure and experience over speculation, however well reasoned it may seem.

rw

[Mr Peabody]

One other thing a post remined me of, we have to be careful how much a manufacturer or their reps get involved here. I remember an incident where a review was requested to be removed because it wasn't glowing, I can't remember who it was now, either Odyssey or Bel Canto. I could see maybe a comment or rebutle place for manufactures if they wanted to respond. I have also had a review of a pair of Klipsch speakers mysteriously disappear. It was not a favorable review but I honestly had them in my home and hooked to my Krell and then some Adcom gear, the speakers were poor in every aspect from sound to build. So, if our review section is not going to be honest or only be one sided, why have it.

[Mr Peabody]

After my last post I got to wondering how many reviews I did have, to my surprise I only have 5. I have written more than that. None of my reviews of my Krell, Arcam or other gear I may have reviewed are here, I reviewed my Denon 1600. Where are these? Do they delete after so much time, did we lose reviews when the website switched to the new format? Are these around somewhere but a profile only counts back so far? Anyone know?

[Bernd]

How about if we would introduce a Dealer only board. Dealers could respond to queris from members, or give their opinion what would go well with what, or/and inform this forum about new releases. As-long as there is no blatant advertising and it is very clear what brands each dealer is involved with.
Just a thought.
I also think that we should stop hankering after the past and who has gone. Those members that have left are totaly unimportant to new members and I am sure that can be off putting and could be misunderstood by some newbie. This is the only forum that I know of without a charmed circle. And long may it continue.

Peace

:7:

[jrhymeammo]

I first came to this site for reviews, and I still enjoy reading them everytime I visit this site. But I have yet to find an easy way to search for gears. Why does anyone have to choose a category then click a beginning letter of manufacturer's brand name? Then go thru 500 SONY DVD players before I get to 777 or 999ES.

Why do I have to search:
"A-R.com + product name" on google?
There gotta be an easier way....

But as for AR forums, I like it just fine.
I used to start a thread with basic questions, and used to receive a nice welcome with great info. If it wasnt for them, I woulda ended up with a HTIB. I think we just gotta be nicer and stop being ELITIST JERKS!!

So what is your budget, DA!!!

JRA

[PeruvianSkies]

Sounds to me like the same reasons why those of us who have stayed around are the same reasons (to some degree) why we can here in the first place, which indicates to me that this site needs some versatility in order to attract new people in and have different reasons for keeping them here. For the most part, us regulars, all have similar interests and while we might have a slightly wide range of equipment and styles/tastes, we represent a very small demographic as a whole.

These are all great discussion points, let's keep the buzz going and most of all try and put some things into action once we establish some things.

[jim goulding]

I'm pretty new here and respect my elders but maybe I have an insight or two. First, the names of threads should be compelling, offering somethin different and interesting. Think about that. Like maybe their should be a brief description of what's inside- a teaser so the speak- to further draw the interest of the browser. A suggestion . . "Diamonds in the Ruff" followed by "lesser known movies to share" or, maybe "your favorite smaller or lessor known films" or "fire away, you got the floor". Whatever begets action. Keep that in mind.

When we title a column "Tweaks, etc." give it a sub title (cause I'm thinking what tweaks?). There is buzz startin about silver fuses and silver paste contact cleaner. Somehow we should make Tweaks less esoteric in meaning, more interesting, now and real world. Always ask, does anyone really want to check this out?

Separate amps from pre amps, tubes from solid state. Where can I listen to samples of new and, perhaps, not easily obtained recordings? Young people are always lookin for tunes. What can we do differently? What would make a new person sign in? Think about what is go to and catchy

And, of course, the colors and graphics need updating. This is a biggy. Everybody in marketing knows that the package is everything. Hamburgers, everything. Look no further that Shandling for an audio example. A rudimentary CD player but with a center piece design. They got out of the gate strong based on looks alone. I built my own wedsite for nothing. If I can do it, etc. If we are talking advertising dollars, you've got to have potential for a larger market. They will take appreciation of our efforts.

You main guys, you know who you are, add color to your commentary. I don't mean humor or sarcasm, tho I love it, the intelligence and wit of smart men and women gases me, use it, but in your description of whatever it is that you're talking about. Review stuff. Somebody step up here. Write articles but don't put readers to sleep. I'm doing one on the heyday of West Coast jazz (I don't promise that it won't put you to sleep) that I'll stick on this bad boy. Management should solicit this sort of thing. HiFi News in the UK, I think it's them, are having a contest to bring on new contributors. A column like this should get a headline. Come on ladies, pick a subject. There is a cat in the galleries that's from Korea (my best guess). Ask him to tell everyone about his audio experience in his native tongue. Let's go after the Far East. Can we translate to incoming? If so, tell em.

Most of you are capable of adding pictures. Do more of that. It's attractive. I don't mean in the galleries, but that's cool, rather with your comments every time it's appropriate. Scan cartoons out of the New Yorker and elsewhere when it's relevant. What . . you don't subscibe to the New Yorker? Start a thread. Visits to the audio store with quotes from the resident experts. Call up designers. What's happening in New York or Seattle? Wanna be the magazine? Start thinking that way. Contribute.

Jaymo, sorry, mate, I know I'm spelling your name wrong, has the most dynamite portrait of a woman on his signature, if that's the right nomenclature. Appearance is everything! Just ask the fashion or cosmetics industries. Worry about substance later. You got that already and it will be appreciated. I know that this statement may be offensive to your intelligence, and if you look like me day to day it's a bitter pill, but it's true.

My favorite example of rebirth is Arm&Hammer baking soda. Once upon a time, ladies baked at home. When they stopped, whadda think their execs were thinking about about? They came up (with the help of some marketing experts, I expect) with the job it does on odor in the fridge. How many households own fridges? And that's sorta kinda of what we're talking about. In their case, they struck with the original packaging. You can't do that.

You have to be unique to do that. We have to get new. They had been a house hold name. Wanna be a house hold (listening room) name? Start thinking that way. But we're gonna have to turn this place upside down first. Yo, it's dooable.

Think cosmetics, points of interest, and in your substance, think that you want he or she to come back.

Now, I'm on my third glass of red, my limit. I've spent more time editing this damn thing than I did writing it. Maybe we're not that ambitious. That's cool, but we can be better. We can be the best.

PS- Much of this has been said already, I mean to confirm that and add some energy if I can.

[PeruvianSkies]

I'm pretty new here and respect my elders but maybe I have an insight or two. First, the names of threads should be compelling, offering somethin different and interesting. Think about that. Like maybe their should be a brief description of what's inside- a teaser so the speak- to further draw the interest of the browser. A suggestion . . "Diamonds in the Ruff" followed by "lesser known movies to share" or, maybe "your favorite smaller or lessor known films" or "fire away, you got the floor". Whatever begets action. Keep that in mind.

When we title a column "Tweaks, etc." give it a sub title (cause I'm thinking what tweaks?). There is buzz startin about silver fuses and silver paste contact cleaner. Somehow we should make Tweaks less esoteric in meaning, more interesting, now and real world. Always ask, does anyone really want to check this out?

Separate amps from pre amps, tubes from solid state. Where can I listen to samples of new and, perhaps, not easily obtained recordings? Young people are always lookin for tunes. What can we do differently? What would make a new person sign in? Think about what is go to and catchy

And, of course, the colors and graphics need updating. This is a biggy. Everybody in marketing knows that the package is everything. Hamburgers, everything. Look no further that Shandling for an audio example. A rudimentary CD player but with a center piece design. They got out of the gate strong based on looks alone. I built my own wedsite for nothing. If I can do it, etc. If we are talking advertising dollars, you've got to have potential for a larger market. They will take appreciation of our efforts.

You main guys, you know who you are, add color to your commentary. I don't mean humor or sarcasm, tho I love it, the intelligence and wit of smart men and women gases me, use it, but in your description of whatever it is that you're talking about. Review stuff. Somebody step up here. Write articles but don't put readers to sleep. I'm doing one on the heyday of West Coast jazz (I don't promise that it won't put you to sleep) that I'll stick on this bad boy. Management should solicit this sort of thing. HiFi News in the UK, I think it's them, are having a contest to bring on new contributors. A column like this should get a headline. Come on ladies, pick a subject. There is a cat in the galleries that's from Korea (my best guess). Ask him to tell everyone about his audio experience in his native tongue. Let's go after the Far East. Can we translate to incoming? If so, tell em.

Most of you are capable of adding pictures. Do more of that. It's attractive. I don't mean in the galleries, but that's cool, rather with your comments every time it's appropriate. Scan cartoons out of the New Yorker and elsewhere when it's relevant. Start a thread. Visits to the audio store with quotes from the resident experts. Call up designers. What's happening in New York or Seattle? Wanna be the magazine? Start thinking that way.

Jaymo, sorry, mate, I know I'm spelling your name wrong, has the most dynamite portrait of a woman on his signature, if that's the right nomenclature. Appearance is everything! Just ask the fashion or cosmetics industries. Worry about substance later. You got that already and it will be appreciated. I know that this statement may be offensive to your intelligence, and if you look like me day to day it's a bitter pill, but it's true.

My favorite example of rebirth is Arm&Hammer baking soda. Once upon a time, ladies baked at home. When they stopped, whadda think their execs were thinking about about? They came up (with the help of some marketing experts, I expect) with the job it does on odor in the fridge. How many households own fridges? And that's sorta kinda of what we're talking about. In their case, they struck with the original packaging. You can't do that.

You have to be unique to do that. We have to get new. They had been a household name. Wanna be a househouse (listening room) name? Start thinking that way. But we're gonna have to turn this place upside down first. Yo, it's dooable.

Think cosmetics, points of interest, and in your substance, think that you want he or she to come back.

Now, I'm on my third glass of red, my limit. I've spent more time editing this damn thing than I did writing it. Cheers.

Those are great ideas. When I take over this website I'll appoint you as the director of web operations.

[jim1961]

Being a newbie here, I thought I would give you all a perspective from one who doesnt know the site or the people here very well at all. Firstly, I found most of the responses helpful and useful. More responses from a greater number of people would have been better, but one can only expect so much. Secondly, for whats its worth, I posted the same threads here on 2 other sites, and got more from folks here, than at the other two.

I didnt read every post here, but read several, and feel like you are all being too hard on your selves. High end audio, or even audio in general, is not something the common person is going to get online and want to discuss. The majority of people, when posed with audio needs or questions just rush down to Bestbuy and get something the salesperson recommends. Research and discussion in audio is mostly for audiophiles and people with too much time on their hands looking for a social outlet. And like already pointed out, many discussions inevitably degrade to similar resolutions. I dont see how this can be avoided. But I would agree that the strength here, as for any online site, is its people and their friendliness, keep that up, and you all stand a chance.

Take care all,

Jim

[GMichael]

I could use a spell checker myself.
So could a few others. Many of the newer sites have this simple addition.

[mlsstl]

> I could use a spell checker myself.

Actually, if you use Firefox as your web browser, the spell checker is built-in. That way it is available to you independent of the web site.

[bobsticks]

Most of you are capable of adding pictures. Do more of that. It's attractive. I don't mean in the galleries, but that's cool, rather with your comments every time it's appropriate. Scan cartoons out of the New Yorker and elsewhere when it's relevant. What . . you don't subscibe to the New Yorker? Start a thread. Visits to the audio store with quotes from the resident experts. Call up designers. What's happening in New York or Seattle? Wanna be the magazine? Start thinking that way. Contribute.

Jaymo, sorry, mate, I know I'm spelling your name wrong, has the most dynamite portrait of a woman on his signature, if that's the right nomenclature. Appearance is everything! Just ask the fashion or cosmetics industries. Worry about substance later. You got that already and it will be appreciated. I know that this statement may be offensive to your intelligence, and if you look like me day to day it's a bitter pill, but it's true.


You have to be unique to do that. We have to get new. They had been a house hold name. Wanna be a house hold (listening room) name? Start thinking that way. But we're gonna have to turn this place upside down first. Yo, it's dooable.

Think cosmetics, points of interest, and in your substance, think that you want he or she to come back.

Well, I'm playing the "catch-up" game today and that in itself may be telling. A lot of folks don't have a lot of time.Anyway, the above is but one quote out of several with which I agree.

It must be said that I don't completely consider the situation "dire" so I don't agree with the very premise of this thread, but jim's on to something for those that would increase the traffic around here. 'Course for every action there's an equal and oppposite reaction, so be careful what you wish for. The biggest trend in music is P2P and DLing, so any significant increase in new contribution would necessarily bring about deadend conversations about the new Plies or Breaking Benjamin or Akon or Children of Bodom or whatever. It occurs to me that many of you will not be open to such things.

But, yeah, there are some things that we could do around here to market the place to be more inviting and for that we probably need to look at the things that we have done that are successful. "What's Spinning" picks up 50 to 100 views a day might be extremely newbie friendly if we ever responded to them. GSwishy's "Top 50" thread was great until it started running the gamut between ridiculous and obvious. The "YouTube" posts were always good for some visits.

We have lost some characters (the most recent to come to mind are Dusty and RL;where be you jim and Peter?) many of whom were the most frequent to contest or battle something with which they disagreed. Some have held that this is due to the mods but really this may be due to us. I mean, when was the last time something got transfered over to the Steel Cage? Does the Steel Cage even exist anymore? When was the last time a thread even bordered on being so uncivil as to lock it? I'm not really one for meaningless internet battles but I already pick on jayrhymedaddy enough...I could step it up if y'all think some conflict will help (and realistically, to an extent, it probably would if current television programming is an indicator)

At the end of the day, like others, I come here for the people. I can't imagine anyone being able to say that they've benifited more from this place than I have as far as gear and music selection goes. Still I come here for the personalities.

Peace
.

[PeruvianSkies]

Research and discussion in audio is mostly for audiophiles and people with too much time on their hands looking for a social outlet.

Jim

Is there a difference between these two types of people? lol.

[PeruvianSkies]

Here is a person who would be great to have some discussion with around here....

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=1463&cat=503

[jim goulding]

Here’s an idea for discussion regards PSky’s recent post about Mutiny and the state of AR.

I’m thinking a new format would help. I’m thinking a newspaper format. A front page with a headline (this would change frequently). Some pictures varying in size. Articles could include industry news and articles by members (this should be encouraged) and industry guests. Readers could be directed to another part of the paper depending on the article. Include a letters section. A box for contents at the bottom left like most papers. That’s how readers would enter. Regards any articles on this page, they could continue if need be by clicking on "con't".

Contents should include something like:

“Enlightened repartee by members of all things audio and video”. This would be the forum which I think is the reason most people are likely to join and stick around. New readers should be directed to a Join Now page to appear at the end of this section to include rules. At the top of every page there should be a banner, no, a bar, of where to go for this and that. Consolidate.

"Audio and Film reviews and commentary by members". The section should have separate sections for each. Encourage repeat entries by staying topical with what’s happening.in the here and now. During Oscar time, for example, encourage readers to nominate.

A "Supporting Industry Advertisers" section and MRSP when available to include dealers in addition to manufacturers to include a page of how to advertise in AR.

"Q and A". This would be for people opening with a question. Sections should be split out like CD players / DVD players / Amplifiers / Pre amplifiers / Hi Def Flat Screens / and so forth.

"Classifieds". Give Audiogon some competition. This is how they get paid.

"Letters and suggestions".

Each section should have its own sub-sections similar to what AR has now.

I don’t much care about systems myself but many do and so there should be a place for that. On the other hand, this could be done by just beefing up a profile section with more detailed information and photos when members want to submit.

The paper should be three color, of course, like USA Today.

Here’s a bad idea . . drop down advertisements. They’re annoying and bolster the impression that AR is about sales rather than news and information and discussion. The home page as it is begs for a change. The newspaper format would give AR a totally different look and the conditioned response is to turn to the section you want, as you do the paper, or browse em all.

Advertisers would see that AR is taking a big step to expand its market and esteem and that should translate to more advertising dollars.

(later) Failed to say anything about the review section. That's a keeper. And the layout is good. Just that the opening page needs some artwork or something.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Here is a person who would be great to have some discussion with around here....

http://gallery.audioreview.com/showphoto.php?photo=1463&cat=503
:yikes: Are they speakers or china cabinets?

[jim goulding]

"Free Money" oughta get you dancin in your seat on the way home, too. It's got that
tour-de-force thing going as well what with that slow intro, gradual build, and balls to the wall finish.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Jim, it's the third song on my Patti Smith Essentials comp, right after Gloria and Redondo Beach.

[daviethek]

When I first joined the site was a little more instructive. Lots of excellent advice being doled out by Wooch, Kex, etc.

Two areas interest me now,

1) a discussion of equipment symetry and
matching components and .....

2) frank discussions of the value( or lack thereof) of Pacific Rim high end. Its not going away, and we are all bargain hunters so just how close can we get to the flame?

[PeruvianSkies]

It seems like there are quite a lot of people who had a hard time changing over when this Forum changed it's format a few years ago, I am curious from those that were here back then why this shift was hard to make and would that happen again if we made changes again? Would we lose people in the shift and would it be worth it in order to attract more people in the long run?

I know that some people have a hard time adjusting to change, but if it is for the better than it shouldn't be as much of an issue. One comment that quite a few people seem to say is that the site is so slow and hard to really do anything like post pictures and such because it takes so long. I can agree with that.

[Mr Peabody]

I was thinking of leaving during the change because the forums were totally different then and I was used to them. I wasn't very good on the computer, and still not. Once I got used to doing it this way, I couldn't go back. Now I've been here a long time and unless the site was so screwed up I couldn't use it or it took too much time, they are stuck with me.

As much as I like talking to everyone, I really don't like the PM, the way it's set up. It seems to me like I have to go through a lot just to get to what was written.

[Wireworm5]

I don't find the site slow on my comp'. It does take longer to load than other forums, Once loaded it's fast.
I was around on the old format, I didn't mind it but knew it had to be updated to handle increased traffic. Basically alot of knowledgeable members left and haven't returned. Sure there was flame wars, but half the time I didn't get the arguments anyway.
And my post count should be at least double what it is now.

[PeruvianSkies]

Does anyone else think that topical chatrooms would be helpful here? The reason I ask is because we were talking about ways to get new people connected and perhaps if they are able to ask quick questions in an open chat we can provide quicker responses. Most of the time newbie questions are about certain setup and/or 'what should I buy" and most of the time does not require a thread to get that accomplished, usually just one or two of us responding gets the job done. Also, a chat room about music would also be cool, especially if we were able to upload files so that people could listen, even if it was only samples.

[GMichael]

Does anyone else think that topical chatrooms would be helpful here? The reason I ask is because we were talking about ways to get new people connected and perhaps if they are able to ask quick questions in an open chat we can provide quicker responses. Most of the time newbie questions are about certain setup and/or 'what should I buy" and most of the time does not require a thread to get that accomplished, usually just one or two of us responding gets the job done. Also, a chat room about music would also be cool, especially if we were able to upload files so that people could listen, even if it was only samples.

Sure, but who we gonna tell?

[PeruvianSkies]

Sure, but who we gonna tell?

Well, who are the powers that be? We need to find out more about the nuts and bolts of this site. The function of a mutiny doesn't work unless all of us are working together to make changes.

[GMichael]

Well, who are the powers that be? We need to find out more about the nuts and bolts of this site. The function of a mutiny doesn't work unless all of us are working together to make changes.

Dude, did you know that you were in the PR department?
http://forums.audioreview.com/showgroups.php

[PeruvianSkies]

Dude, did you know that you were in the PR department?
http://forums.audioreview.com/showgroups.php

That's news to me. Weird. Ok, so now we see a list of the people, but how many of them are still active and active with the site? Do these people get paid?

[Mr Peabody]

Not that chats would be bad, but it's a good idea to post a thread because not everyone is here at the same time and a thread will allow more of a variety of input oppose to some one being stuck in the chat..... well, let's say with Pix, and they wanted to know what the best DLP is. Or, to be fair, with me, and they wanted to know if Klipsch was any good. Of course, on the other hand, a one sided biased opinion would alleviate confusion from the poster getting opposing opinions :)

Chats could get people to hang around more though. I've seen some chats that moved so fast and so many posts, it was nearly impossible to keep up with conversation with some one. It may be something at some point to try and if it works great, and, if not, shut it down.

[nightflier]

Hey I'm also in the PR department. How did that happen? I don't remember signing up for this. What is the PR department, anyhow? Do I need to do something? Will I get paid?

[PeruvianSkies]

Not that chats would be bad, but it's a good idea to post a thread because not everyone is here at the same time and a thread will allow more of a variety of input oppose to some one being stuck in the chat..... well, let's say with Pix, and they wanted to know what the best DLP is. Or, to be fair, with me, and they wanted to know if Klipsch was any good. Of course, on the other hand, a one sided biased opinion would alleviate confusion from the poster getting opposing opinions :)

Chats could get people to hang around more though. I've seen some chats that moved so fast and so many posts, it was nearly impossible to keep up with conversation with some one. It may be something at some point to try and if it works great, and, if not, shut it down.

Ok, how about still keep the threads, but you have the ability to IM whoever is currently online.

[Rich-n-Texas]

That only works if everybody has IM. I don't, and don't really see the need to set up an account.

well, let's say with Pix, and they wanted to know what the best DLP is.
Ha ha ha ha ha!!! Now that's a chat I'd want to evesdrop on!

Dude, did you know that you were in the PR department?
He didn't show up on the list when I looked at it. Sometimes this place gives me the creeps.

[GMichael]

He didn't show up on the list when I looked at it. Sometimes this place gives me the creeps.

PS is his second name on this site. I remember him from his older ID.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Oh. Well, another example of how under maintained this site is.

[PeruvianSkies]

Rich,

The IM could be integrated into the site, not a secondary IM system like AOL or Yahoo, but a AR IM system that way everyone who has an account here has one.

[GMichael]

So, who's going to step up and take over?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Okay. I see. So if an inter-IM flame war starts, (i.e. I ask Pixe how to spell encyclopedia and he goes all balistic on me), there will be no one there to see it. How would we regulate/moderate that type of situation, or... would no one care.

Just kidding but IMO to have a real-time conversation takes time out of a person's day, and in the case where people are chatting while at work it could be a distraction, ya know?

[PeruvianSkies]

Okay. I see. So if an inter-IM flame war starts, (i.e. I ask Pixe how to spell encyclopedia and he goes all balistic on me), there will be no one there to see it. How would we regulate/moderate that type of situation, or... would no one care.

Just kidding but IMO to have a real-time conversation takes time out of a person's day, and in the case where people are chatting while at work it could be a distraction, ya know?

This site...a distraction? Nooooo. Say it ain't so!

Well, again I suppose it could be possible to do moderated chat rooms and IM capabilities. I find this being more helpful than those certain instances where certain said name trolls come lurking about in which case we have a handy IGNORE button. I also think that once a certain TROLL gets enough ignores from certain people that a prompt goes to a moderator with the ability at that point to eject/ban the Troll for good.

[Mr Peabody]

What is the PR dept.?

[Blue Meanie]

I've never noticed a speed issue, and it's safe to say I visit here a few times every day.

Well, then you're one of the few lucky ones. This site has always been glacially slow to load, compared to most other sites I've frequented.

But at least before the censors went nuts a few years ago, there was a LOT of traffic, making the wait to load worthwhile. But the combination of extreme censorship AND slow servers killed this place long ago.

These aren't complaints, merely observations.

Jeff

[Pat D]

I first found AR toward the end of the last century--I'm not sure just when. I had listened to a great many speakers over many years and was pretty familiar with the NRC measurements because Audio-Video Canada and its predecessors used them, and I was somewhat familiar with the work of Dr. Floyd Toole. Knowing something about logic and methodology, naturally I found myself in sympathy with mtrycrafts.

It seems to me that when people ask questions about equipment, then technical and audibility considerations are relevant. However, the rules appear to favor relegating them to The Audio Lab, which means those asking the questions on other forums can't get an adequate answer. I'm not much interested, therefore, though I do look in on the Speakers forum occasionally.

My main musical interests are in various classical genres, and when I first found AR, there was considerable discussion of classical music in Rave Recordings. I now have much less to contribute at RR, but I like the fellows over there and learn a lot about other genres of music, so I look in there every two or three days, anyway, to see if I can contribute anything.

The Reviews are no doubt a main attraction at AR, and they can be helpful if one reads them and screens out the ones who haven't used the equipment and just want to gain an adolescent thrill in bashing something. Just looking at the rating numbers is mostly useless.

[jim goulding]

:crazy: Maybe that describes what happened to me a few hours ago or maybe it just describes me I'm beginning to think. I'm typing a reply, a rather lengthy one I suspect, when a screen suddenly appears from Aperion Audio. Not a drop down advert mind you but the entire reply to thread page was hijacked and there was no way for me to return to AR let alone save my message. Is this what was referred to earlier by a member stating SPAM is coming through AR? I don't know but this is the second time it's happened. The first time I thought I may had done something wrong but not this time. This is liable to piss some people off if it happens to them. Let me testify to that. jim

[PeruvianSkies]

It would seem that there are a ton of newbies that post in the Vintage section...anyone have an explanation for this? Also, it would seem that majority of the people that post in the Photo Gallery do not come in the Forums and vice versa.

[flippo]

I think part of the problem is people can ask the same questions so many times and people will get bored. How many threads do you see in the speakers forum titled "What speakers should I buy?" or something close to that.

[GMichael]

I think part of the problem is people can ask the same questions so many times and people will get bored. How many threads do you see in the speakers forum titled "What speakers should I buy?" or something close to that.

So, what speakers do you think I should buy? I want the best speakers available. Money is no object. I have up to $300 to spend.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I think part of the problem is people can ask the same questions so many times and people will get bored. How many threads do you see in the speakers forum titled "What speakers should I buy?" or something close to that.
That happens everywhere though. I've been a member of auto, computer and video card discussion forums and it's the same thing. IMO the search functions of vBB's is pretty much useless so that, among other factors will contribute to the redundancy. In some cases I'm glad to see that because it helps refresh my memory about one person or another's opinions and experiences.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Yeah, GM needs new speakers already. :biggrin5:

[dingus]

It would seem that there are a ton of newbies that post in the Vintage section...anyone have an explanation for this? ...
my guess is that someone new, or someone who is getting back into audio, can get a very good sounding vintage system for relatively cheap. in some cases dirt cheap if you get lucky or know where to look.

[Mr Peabody]

Dingus, how do you like your EAD? Anyone looking for a bang for their buck should jump on that stuff at Audiogon.

[dingus]

Dingus, how do you like your EAD? Anyone looking for a bang for their buck should jump on that stuff at Audiogon.
i love it. my first DAC was the Entech Number Cruncher, a pretty good DAC for $65 to my door. luckily the EAD came up on craigslist shortly thereafter for $185. the owner had it upgraded by EAD so in effect i got a DSP 1500. its a big step up from the Entech, i cant imagine doing without it now.

[GMichael]

Yeah, GM needs new speakers already. :biggrin5:

You could send me those B&W's if you like.

[Rich-n-Texas]

They're black and definately would not go with your room's decor!

[GMichael]

They're black and definately would not go with your room's decor!

I have other rooms they could go in.

[JSE]

Two things have kiiled these forums.

1. Over moderation. During the great "purge" a few years back I had mixed feelings about the stronger moderation. On one hand, some people needed to go and on the other, they were the "spice" that kept things interesting and lively. I think it went way to far. Good people with big personalities left and it has killed the forums. I like 99% of the people here I post with. There are a few wackos, a few a-holes, a few funny guys, a few technical guys, a few people who know more about audio video than the rest of us combined. But, there is very little "spice". Which leads me to number 2.

2. Everyone here gets along for the most part. This is a great things in some regards but it's also BOOORRRRIIIINNNG! Back in the site's hey day (sp?), I loved going head to head and sometimes arguing with people about cables, movies, politics, etc. I was probably as big of an A-hole as anyone else. Well maybe not as big as some. :wink5: I just don't feel like pushing people's buttons here at this time. One reason is I like you guys, and gals (FA), and the other is I would probably get the boot. The resident "do-gooders" (and you know who you are) would report me in 2 seconds. The Steel Cage is way to obvious and just is not the same as a good old slug-fest out in the open. I miss those days. For the most part, we all had some pretty down and dirty arguments but after the dust cleared, we still respcted each other and got along the rest of the time. Sir T and I got into some pretty heated debates/arguments about some pretty serious stuff but I think we both respected each other and were friends here at AR. The new "management" just thought the "back and forth" was bad for the site and put an end to it for the most part. For that, they are dumbasses and have run this site into the ground. The more I write about this the more irked I get so I will end my rant. I have been trying to come around this place when possible but the bottom line is this place is dead and there are only a few members left here that keep me coming back. Yes G'Man, your one of them. :rolleyes:

Anyway, if anyone disagrees, SCREW YOU! :dita:

JSeeeeeeeee!

[JSE]

Oh yeah,

PS, I commend your idea and your dedication to this site but in reality there is simply nothing we as forum members can really do to increase traffic. Management is either happy with the site the way it is, or they don't give a rat's ass. I'm not trying to be a downer, I'm merely pointed out the truth. Of course, if there is some type of an effort in the futrue, I will gladly do what I can.

[PeruvianSkies]

Two things have kiiled these forums.

1. Over moderation. During the great "purge" a few years back I had mixed feelings about the stronger moderation. On one hand, some people needed to go and on the other, they were the "spice" that kept things interesting and lively. I think it went way to far. Good people with big personalities left and it has killed the forums. I like 99% of the people here I post with. There are a few wackos, a few a-holes, a few funny guys, a few technical guys, a few people who know more about audio video that the rest of us combined. But, there is very little "spice". Which leads me to number 2.

2. Everyone here gets along for the most part. This is a great things in some regards but it's also BOOORRRRIIIINNNG! Back in the site's hey day (sp?), I loved going head to head and sometimes arguing with people about cables, movies, politics, etc. I was probably as big of an A-hole as anyone else. Well maybe not as big as some. :wink5: I just don't feel like pushing people's buttons here at this time. One reason is I like you guys, and gals (FA), and the other is I would probably get the boot. The resident "do-gooders" (as you know who you are) would report me in 2 seconds. The Steel Cage is way to obvious and just is not the same as a good old slug-fest out in the open. I miss those days. For the most part, we all had some pretty down and dirty arguments but after the dust cleared, we still respcted each other and got along the rest of the time. Sir T and I got into some pretty heated debates/arguments about some pretty serious stuff but I think we both respected each other and were friends here at AR. The new "management" just thought the "back and forth" was bad for the site and put an end to it for the most part. For that, they are dumbasses and have run this site into the ground. The more I write about this the more irked I get so I will end my rant. I have been trying to come around this place when possible but the bottom line is this place is dead and there are only a few members left here that keep me coming back. Yes G'Man, your one of them. :rolleyes:

Anyway, if anyone disagrees, SCREW YOU! :dita:

JSeeeeeeeee!

I can definitely see where you are coming from, especially since I try to 'spice' it up here and there as well and I am not afraid to let my personality shine through regardless of what anyone thinks of it. If someone asks for my opinion I will give it, but often times when I have tried to get things going around here it usually backfires or just goes nowhere. I don't mind getting along with everyone, but I also think that debates and such are also beneficial as well, especially when both sides are presenting good arguments and not just bashing each other around. Maybe everyones tired of debating...I get tired of going back and forth about cables and such, so maybe everyone else is too. I just don't know.

[JSE]

Maybe everyones tired of debating...I get tired of going back and forth about cables and such, so maybe everyone else is too. I just don't know.

I don't think people were tired of debating issues, I just think given the strict constraints that management forced on us a few years back, people just went to other boards to debate. Boards where it's still allowed. Hell, just off the top of my head, I can think of about 10 to 15 of this site's past regular contributors that are now over at Audioholics.

[GMichael]

I don't think people were tired of debating issues, I just think given the strict constraints that management forced on us a few years back, people just went to other boards to debate. Boards where it's still allowed. Hell, just off the top of my head, I can think of about 10 to 15 of this site's past regular contributors that are now over at Audioholics.

Very true. I think that they had a good idea here that just went too far. The fights were the spice that kept people coming back. I used to enjoy reading threads where Flo and RGA were going at it. Most of what they said went over my head, but I learned a lot from those fights. Both of them have so much knowledge about this hobby that I may never know. Their points of view never seemed to match, but it was great reading.
The old Lex threads were great too. As much as he would melt down, he still had a lot to add to this forum. I don't blame AR for sending him off. He brought it on himself. But I still miss him and his long a$$ reveiws. And WHO else knows HOW to CAPITALIZE the WAY he did?

[Mr Peabody]

It depends on what the purpose of the forums are supposed to be. If the forums are to help others learn, I don't see how the arguments were productive. But, on the other hand, we can help all we want but it is really up to the poster to try or listen for themselves to determine whose opinion was in sync with what they found. I would imagine the purpose of the forums are to really attract people in to see all the advertisements, so you'd think the owners would be having this conversation instead of the participants.

I think it was Flo I was mixing it up with when I received my first warning. I'm not sure what I did to cross the line but it seemed like I had been in hotter conflicts with Sir T or Skeptic.

I have learned from the arguments. I remember having an argument about 5.1 speaker placement. The person pointed me to the Dolby website and although all the installers I saw did it one way, Dolby illustrated another. So there is the potential of productivity as long as people give references or experiences and keep the jabs above the belt.

Oh, and JSE, skru U

[JSE]

Oh, and JSE, skru U

That's what I'm talking about! :cornut:

Felt good huh?

[PeruvianSkies]

So what is the purpose of this site ???

[PeruvianSkies]

Inspired from our discussion here:

[PeruvianSkies]

GM, where are you? You are the star of this show!

[GMichael]

GM, where are you? You are the star of this show!

Dude, it's Sunday.
I have today off...............

Nice pic. I like how my old avitar is flying around behind the ship.

[Luvin Da Blues]

Dude, it's Sunday.
I have today off...............

Nice pic. I like how my old avitar is flying around behind the ship.

I think they're throwing you overboard GM...:arf:

[GMichael]

I think they're throwing you overboard GM...:arf:

Didn't you know that Chity Chity Bang Bang was mt great aunt?

[Luvin Da Blues]

Didn't you know that Chity Chity Bang Bang was mt great aunt?

And Herbie the Love Bug is your long lost bro?

[GMichael]

And Herbie the Love Bug is your long lost bro?

Cousin.:arf:

[PeruvianSkies]

Well, this thread generated a bit of responses, but it would seem that without knowing who to take these concerns to or what the process is for changing things that our mutiny will not help matters. If the top 20% of us posters were to suddenly stop coming here, what would happen? The top 20% of us probably make up about 90% of the posts anyway, so that means the site would be even more stagnant than it already is, but would anyone really care? Would new 'regulars' emerge with the void? Who knows, and most of all ...does anyone care at this point? Our community is struggling and there doesn't seem to be anyone running this place to bring our concerns to.

[Mr Peabody]

So who do the moderators answer to? None of them know who is the wizard of AR? Did Eric appoint all of them?

[musicoverall]

Two things have kiiled these forums.

1. Over moderation. During the great "purge" a few years back I had mixed feelings about the stronger moderation. On one hand, some people needed to go and on the other, they were the "spice" that kept things interesting and lively. I think it went way to far. Good people with big personalities left and it has killed the forums. I like 99% of the people here I post with. There are a few wackos, a few a-holes, a few funny guys, a few technical guys, a few people who know more about audio video than the rest of us combined. But, there is very little "spice". Which leads me to number 2.

2. Everyone here gets along for the most part. This is a great things in some regards but it's also BOOORRRRIIIINNNG! Back in the site's hey day (sp?), I loved going head to head and sometimes arguing with people about cables, movies, politics, etc. I was probably as big of an A-hole as anyone else. Well maybe not as big as some. :wink5: I just don't feel like pushing people's buttons here at this time. One reason is I like you guys, and gals (FA), and the other is I would probably get the boot. The resident "do-gooders" (and you know who you are) would report me in 2 seconds. The Steel Cage is way to obvious and just is not the same as a good old slug-fest out in the open. I miss those days. For the most part, we all had some pretty down and dirty arguments but after the dust cleared, we still respcted each other and got along the rest of the time. Sir T and I got into some pretty heated debates/arguments about some pretty serious stuff but I think we both respected each other and were friends here at AR. The new "management" just thought the "back and forth" was bad for the site and put an end to it for the most part. For that, they are dumbasses and have run this site into the ground. The more I write about this the more irked I get so I will end my rant. I have been trying to come around this place when possible but the bottom line is this place is dead and there are only a few members left here that keep me coming back. Yes G'Man, your one of them. :rolleyes:

Anyway, if anyone disagrees, SCREW YOU! :dita:

JSeeeeeeeee!

This is precisely why I don't come here much anymore. It wasn't just the physical act of arguing and debating - it was the learning that came with it... or if not the learning, at least the research that helped build my own case. Sir T and I agreed on a lot of things but I found that the things we didn't agree on... well... he was right most of the time. But even if he had been wrong, his comments forced me to review my own position. And he was a gentleman as long as the person he was debating with was.

The problem was the folks who took their position too personally. Many who do that do so because it's NOT just audio to them. They are scientists, engineers... and this stuff is their life, at least theoretically. Telling an engineer that different cables make systems sound different is an insult to them. Of course, I can't stop telling them that because cables DO make a difference. :) But I understand their unwillingness to test and why they get their back up. They feel that a cable person is telling them their lifetime of studying was a waste. I'm actually telling them to take it a step further, but that's a story for another time.

The fact is that even many of the a-holes had something to say on this board. If they could have said it with less vitriol and insultation, this board would be more interesting. Therein lies the conundrum. I absolutely understand the Board's decision to make the place more friendly. If we were all together in person, I would totally agree. We'd share beers and audio stories and music and it would be a friendly place to be. But I think audio itself moves forward when it encounters resistance... a belief foreign to the norm. I don't see that here much anymore.

I wish I could come up with an answer.

[jvc]

Ok, I've GOT to say something here.

I think the biggest problem with this site is PeruvianSkies!
Some of you may remember, when I first joined, I tried to post regularly. But, once I mentioned I liked Steven Seagal movies, PS immediately jumped in with both feet, and started insulting and condemning me. Naturally, that caused me to insult back. We went back and forth a little, until I finally said "to hell with this!" If this is how new people to this site get treated, just because of some movies they like, I don't want any part of it! Others made insulting remarks too, but it was mostly PS. And you wonder why people don't sign up?

There was another time, when he was jumping on someone else. I got in and said a couple of things, in the other person's behalf. I probably haven't posted more than 3-4 times, in many months. It's not worth it, not knowing if you're going to get into a knock down, drag out fight with someone. Of course, the lurkers see this happening, and think WTF! I'm not joining this place! It's as bad, or worse than AVS here!

The idea about winning prizes is good. I think prizes are donated to most sites that offer them. It's an advertising write-off, for the companies that donate them. Write some letters to some companies, requesting donations for prizes. Invite them to come to the site (and hope they don't see the flame wars). If they see the flaming, you can probably forget about any donations.

If you want to attract more members, teach PS (and a couple others) some basic manners and internet etiquette. Honey attracts more flies than vinegar does!

[GMichael]

Ok, I've GOT to say something here.

I think the biggest problem with this site is PeruvianSkies!
Some of you may remember, when I first joined, I tried to post regularly. But, once I mentioned I liked Steven Seagal movies, PS immediately jumped in with both feet, and started insulting and condemning me. Naturally, that caused me to insult back. We went back and forth a little, until I finally said "to hell with this!" If this is how new people to this site get treated, just because of some movies they like, I don't want any part of it! Others made insulting remarks too, but it was mostly PS. And you wonder why people don't sign up?

There was another time, when he was jumping on someone else. I got in and said a couple of things, in the other person's behalf. I probably haven't posted more than 3-4 times, in many months. It's not worth it, not knowing if you're going to get into a knock down, drag out fight with someone. Of course, the lurkers see this happening, and think WTF! I'm not joining this place! It's as bad, or worse than AVS here!

The idea about winning prizes is good. I think prizes are donated to most sites that offer them. It's an advertising write-off, for the companies that donate them. Write some letters to some companies, requesting donations for prizes. Invite them to come to the site (and hope they don't see the flame wars). If they see the flaming, you can probably forget about any donations.

If you want to attract more members, teach PS (and a couple others) some basic manners and internet etiquette. Honey attracts more flies than vinegar does!

Some valid points mixed in here. There are some areas where the veterans and EE's should be allowed to fight all they want about different sides of technical issues. But when a new member pops in about a film, receiver options, or even a Bose system, we should treat them a little nicer. Let them feel like part of the family. Then we can fight with them later.
Oh, but I don't like Steven Seagal either. And anyone who does is a mindless..... Oops, sorry. Lost my head. Stick around a while. We'll talk more later.
Joke.....
JOKE.....:thumbsup:

[markw]

So what is the purpose of this site ???this site is a marketing tool that exists to generate as many hits to sell advertising to their advertisers as possible. Since this site pops up at the top when people do searches on this subject on the web, it's highly successful as it is.

As for the participants here, they are just icing on the cake that help draw people to this site and, since they get mucho hits already, why should the owners bother to rock the boat? It's not so much the participants that matter but more so the lurkers who are drawn to this site's advertisers.

If anyone thought there were higher, more altruistic reasons for this sites existence, welcome to marketing 101. I've got a bridge to sell ya.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Capitalist pig!!!

(kidding)

[GMichael]

Is it a wooden bridge, or one of those new fangled metal type bridges? I like metal. I can stick magnets to it. I'm tired of sticking them to the metal plates in my head.

[musicoverall]

I had a similar disagreement way back with poster Woodman regarding power cords. He said resolutely there could be no possible way different cords could influence the sound. While he had been a TV technician for fifty? years, he had zero exposure to the systems I was referring. When I pointed out the RF filtering aspects, he responded that such cords were no longer power cords. Right.

I think It is important to know what you don't know. I value direct exposure and experience over speculation, however well reasoned it may seem.

rw

It's true that there is little (in audio - and not much more in the rest of the world!) that means much until it's experienced. Nothing makes a difference until you try it!

[musicoverall]

It seems to me that when people ask questions about equipment, then technical and audibility considerations are relevant. However, the rules appear to favor relegating them to The Audio Lab, which means those asking the questions on other forums can't get an adequate answer. .

I don't disagree with your first statement - in fact I agree totally. But the issue was not with getting adequate answers... the issue was that once those adequate answers were given, it's not ok to fire the personal attacks because the questioner preferred one explanation over another. Neither side could stand being second guessed and things quickly turned pissy. It wasn't good enough to give someone the facts as the opposing sides saw them. So one could reasonably conclude that it was the posters and not the rules that were the problem. The rules were a response... successful one the one hand and unsuccessful in that they discouraged intelligent exchange - that one had to dig for amidst the name calling but that were there if one had skin thick enough to survive.

[Mr Peabody]

Hey, I like Seagal movies! Anyone who don't is a little on the feminen side, if you know what I mean......

Not that there's anything wrong with that :)

[GMichael]

Hey, I like Seagal movies! Anyone who don't is a little on the feminen side, if you know what I mean......

Not that there's anything wrong with that :)

Smarty pants.

[jvc]

Hey, I like Seagal movies! Anyone who don't is a little on the feminen side, if you know what I mean......

Not that there's anything wrong with that :)

LOL!
His last couple of movies weren't that great. The studio has Seagal's voice dubbed in, in a lot of scenes, for some reason! They ruined the movie for us fans, by doing that. There were some unhappy people!

You may or may not know...............Seagal plays lead guitar and sings, in a blues band. He's not great, but he definately isn't too bad either. His band's name is Thunderbox. They have two cds out. Here's a little something that was written on Rotten Tomatoes:
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/journal_view.php?journalid=100003963

[Mr Peabody]

I didn't know he was in a band.

Any idea what that controversy was a year or two ago when they were trying to say he really didn't know Marshall Arts?

I have seen anything new of his. It seems like they go under the radar. Maybe they'll pop up on HBO.

[jvc]

His last few movies went straight to dvd, since they weren't done by the really big studio, like Under Siege, and Under Siege 2. There's talk that Under Siege 3 is a possibility. I'd like to see ol' Casey Ryback again..........:)

I never heard of a contraversy.
I remember, years ago on the Tonight Show, they had a guy on that was in a lot of martial arts movies. He was one of those people that you know the face, but not the name. Jay said to him, "you've worked with all the martial arts guys in films. Who's for real, and who isn't?" The guy said, "well, Chuck Norris was a kick boxer, so he's into the competition type martial arts. Jean-Claude Van Dam was into doing tricks (as with the split, on the backs of the two chairs). Jackie Chan like comedy with his scenes." Bruce Lee, (forget what he said about him and Jet Li). Then he said, "but, the one guy that can kill you in a few seconds, and think nothing of it, is Steven Seagal!" Then he said if they all got together, and fought each other until one was left standing, Seagal would be the one walking away, after it was over."

I saw where another guy told this story, at another HT forum, a year or so ago. I was glad that someone else had seen it too, to confirm what I had said before. Of course everyone watching that night saw it, but I didn't know anyone personally, that saw it.

The one thing I've never liked about Seagal, is that he hit his wife a time or two. He was married to gorgeous Kelly LeBrock at the time.

[PeruvianSkies]

What happened to this thread?

[Luvin Da Blues]

LOL!
His last couple of movies weren't that great. The studio has Seagal's voice dubbed in, in a lot of scenes, for some reason! They ruined the movie for us fans, by doing that. There were some unhappy people!

You may or may not know...............Seagal plays lead guitar and sings, in a blues band. He's not great, but he definately isn't too bad either. His band's name is Thunderbox. They have two cds out. Here's a little something that was written on Rotten Tomatoes:
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/vine/journal_view.php?journalid=100003963


I've seen his "blues" act on TV a couple of times and gotta say that his band sucks almost as bad as his acting! :Yawn:

[Mr Peabody]

What do you mean, what happened. It seems there is a growing inference that the problem, seeks the solution.

Are you kidding me?! Seagal can act every bit as good as Vin Diesel or The Rock, or Vandam.

[PeruvianSkies]

What do you mean, what happened. It seems there is a growing inference that the problem, seeks the solution.

Are you kidding me?! Seagal can act every bit as good as Vin Diesel or The Rock, or Vandam.

People just don't give Steven Seagal enough credit, if you look at the top pantheon of actors of all time and you rank the elite actors that have graced the silver screen there is little doubt that Steven Seagal ranks up there with the likes of Howie Long.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MMPO/503339~Firestorm-Posters.jpg

Although Howie has nothing on Denise Richards in the classic 1994 film TAMMY AND THE T-REX...

http://press.creighton.edu/030504/images/030504/tammy_t-rex.jpg

[GMichael]

What happened to this thread?

It took a hard left.

[Mr Peabody]

Howie who?

Duh..... which way did he go.... which way did he go... did anyone see a wabbit around here?

[Rich-n-Texas]

The new movie starring The Rock looks pretty funny...

[jneutron]

It seems to me that when people ask questions about equipment, then technical and audibility considerations are relevant. However, the rules appear to favor relegating them to The Audio Lab, which means those asking the questions on other forums can't get an adequate answer.

Agreed.

Issues which have driven me away:

1. Site's policy keeping technical discussion off all forums but "lab". I warned em this was not a good idea, and losing too many posters at one time could make the place a dead zone. Did they believe other forums did not exist? I said I'd re-evaluate the site 3 months after the major changes, and at that time, nothing was new. Same now.

2. Inadequate control over those sharing the moderator's POV...they were allowed to run over those who's opinion did not match moderator's. Kinda like certain people at AA who are given carte blanche to bash who they please.

3. Very slow page loading. The ads kill it. I rarely even lurk here because of that bottleneck.

4. To me, it is not even clear that they want people to post in the forums.

Cheers, John

[musicoverall]

...you were one of the posters that could always be counted on not only to have his facts straight and something worth reading that would inspire further research, but also someone who respected conflicting opinions. I never saw you dress down another poster, even when you disagreed strongly.

Would that we were all like you. If we had been, The Lab would never have to have been introduced. You have earned your right to disagree with the "new rules".

[PeruvianSkies]

Man, this is such a tragedy...the fact that people of this site want things to change and have so many great ideas, yet we can't get anyone to hear our cries. It's just a shame.

[dingus]

http://www.quantcast.com/forums.audioreview.com

[PeruvianSkies]

http://www.quantcast.com/forums.audioreview.com

Those are some neat stats.....did you have anything specific that struck you about this or did you just post this for the heck of it?

[dingus]

i thought that even if no one found it helpful, it would at least be interesting.

[PeruvianSkies]

i thought that even if no one found it helpful, it would at least be interesting.

Good idea. I like seeing stats like that, especially in light of this conversation with this thread. It seems that this site does pretty good without much activity inside the forum and such, then again, there are about a zillion ads on here.

[dingus]

you also get to see how this site stacks up (in terms of visits) against others.

[PeruvianSkies]

you also get to see how this site stacks up (in terms of visits) against others.

We should make our own site.... totally independent and free of advertising.

[dingus]

We should make our own site.... totally independent and free of advertising.
and who's going to pay for it?

[PeruvianSkies]

and who's going to pay for it?

I think Florian said he would sell his speakers for it.

[dingus]

I think Florian said he would sell his speakers for it.
that would be a start.

as for starting a non-commercial forum from scratch, its been done many times, with varying levels of success. imo the biggest hurdle to overcome is funding. the easiest solution is to use a free hosting service. you dont get away from the ads, thats the trade off for using a "free" service", but at least you dont have to deal with having to generate capitol.

[PeruvianSkies]

that would be a start.

as for starting a non-commercial forum from scratch, its been done many times, with varying levels of success. imo the biggest hurdle to overcome is funding. the easiest solution is to use a free hosting service. you dont get away from the ads, thats the trade off for using a "free" service", but at least you dont have to deal with having to generate capitol.

Yeah, true...we need a site by the people for the people. I mean, we are the ones who are the heart and soul of this hobby and we deserve a site that enables us to discuss our passion with others, spread good information around, and be able to build a stronger community of people with similar interests and expand the horizons of those searching for information as well.

[dingus]

Yeah, true...we need a site by the people for the people. I mean, we are the ones who are the heart and soul of this hobby and we deserve a site that enables us to discuss our passion with others, spread good information around, and be able to build a stronger community of people with similar interests and expand the horizons of those searching for information as well.
yer preachin' to the choir brother!

[PeruvianSkies]

yer preachin' to the choir brother!

After seeing what you said to look at in your PM, I guess I am, I had no idea!

[Rich-n-Texas]

Let's go crash the party at dingus's discussion forum! :biggrin5:

[GMichael]

We could have Spanky design it for us.

[JSE]

So we the "addict" forum posters account for 4% of the visits? If that's true, no wonder they could care less about the forums. "We" don't make them a dime since we don't click on ads like the "passers by" and regulars. Also, looks like only abotu 12% visit the forums.

The bottom line is this is a revenue genarating business through visits and ads. That's the priority, not forums. Other sites seem to be more forum oriented and that seems to be where most people go. The AR forums are an afterthought. Whoever's in charge wants to make money through ads and reviews, not create a community. That seems to be the business model and that's his/her/their choice.

Maybe "we" should look into another alternative site? Maybe "we" can research it, find a good new home and migrate? A mass migration! Start a thread here telling everyone where to go, and go!

For me, Audioholics would probably be my first choice since I used to post there quite a bit but I would be open to any site. The main reason I mention Audioholics is there are a lot of old AR members there now and their forum format seems to be similiar in terms of the categories they have.

What has AR done for us? Nothing, except provide a forum. "We" make this place what it is, not AR. If most of the regulars here leave and go to the same new place, what's the difference? Oh, more members, less rules, better discussions, new friends, old friends, new start, "puttin" it to AR, just better overall IMO.

Anyway, something to think about.

JSE

[GMichael]

Start a thread here telling everyone where to go.

JSE

I've already been told where to go. :nono: But I'm waiting for them to go first.:thumbsup:

[jneutron]

So we the "addict" forum posters account for 4% of the visits? If that's true, no wonder they could care less about the forums. "We" don't make them a dime since we don't click on ads like the "passers by" and regulars. Also, looks like only abotu 12% visit the forums.

The bottom line is this is a revenue genarating business through visits and ads. That's the priority, not forums. Other sites seem to be more forum oriented and that seems to be where most people go. The AR forums are an afterthought. Whoever's in charge wants to make money through ads and reviews, not create a community. That seems to be the business model and that's his/her/their choice.

Hence my statement ""4. To me, it is not even clear that they want people to post in the forums.""

For me, Audioholics would probably be my first choice since I used to post there quite a bit but I would be open to any site. The main reason I mention Audioholics is there are a lot of old AR members there now and their forum format seems to be similiar in terms of the categories they have.

The site's not very active either, and I believe the owner also does not consider the forums to be of importance. Essentially, the forums were started to garner interest, but they also strive for ad income and not community.

The owner threatened to ban me for presenting a clear and concise biwire analysis showing clear differences between bi and monowire. First, he brought in hired guns Putzy, Elliot, and Leseuf, and when I detailed their error in understanding mathematically and with physics, the owner got really nasty. And I mean nasty, in private e-mails. So AH is certainly not my next choice.



What has AR done for us? Nothing, except provide a forum. "We" make this place what it is, not AR.


Yup and yup. If members as a group can convince the moderators to make it an easier place to chat, will they listen?


Cheers, John

[nightflier]

So we the "addict" forum posters account for 4% of the visits? If that's true, no wonder they could care less about the forums. "We" don't make them a dime since we don't click on ads like the "passers by" and regulars. Also, looks like only abotu 12% visit the forums.

The bottom line is this is a revenue genarating business through visits and ads. That's the priority, not forums. Other sites seem to be more forum oriented and that seems to be where most people go. The AR forums are an afterthought. Whoever's in charge wants to make money through ads and reviews, not create a community. That seems to be the business model and that's his/her/their choice.

Maybe "we" should look into another alternative site? Maybe "we" can research it, find a good new home and migrate? A mass migration! Start a thread here telling everyone where to go, and go!

For me, Audioholics would probably be my first choice since I used to post there quite a bit but I would be open to any site. The main reason I mention Audioholics is there are a lot of old AR members there now and their forum format seems to be similiar in terms of the categories they have.

What has AR done for us? Nothing, except provide a forum. "We" make this place what it is, not AR. If most of the regulars here leave and go to the same new place, what's the difference? Oh, more members, less rules, better discussions, new friends, old friends, new start, "puttin" it to AR, just better overall IMO.

Anyway, something to think about.

JSE

Other sites have their problems too, but more importantly, you implied yourself that this is the nature of this business - it's a business. Other sites, even if they are not already a business, will become more so over time. It's about ad revenue and sooner or later, that will be the norm elsewhere too.

I'm not for giving up. I think that if we can find a way to exert the right kind of pressure on the moderators, that we can make a difference here. We need to make a stand, the question is how.

[Worf101]

I've been monitoring this thread since getting P.Skies invitation. I'm old school here. I date back before the change over and lost about 800 posts or so in the transition. I've also lost some reviews. To be honest I've absolutely no deisre to return to the days of Tube vs. Solid State, Analog vs. Digital, Planar uber alles, nOrh vs. Swan Divas or the merits of Consumer Reports vs. Double Blind tests. etc... I've seen/read/lived through all that crap and have no desire repeat history.

Yeah, it'd be nice to have more folks contribute, but I'll take quality over quantity any day of the week. After building and installing about 19 HT's for family and friends over the years I've little patience for holding another breathless noobs hand through the learning/buying process. God Bless those of you that do have the patience to do it but I dont. But be that as it may I'll help when and where I can.

As for what's wrong with this place, everybody's got an opinion and you know what they say about opinons and a-holes. There've been some great suggestion in the last 7 pages of posts. But the following things need to be asked first:

1. What do we as a communitry or individuals WANT from this site?

Me personally, I just come here to kibits cause I love da folks here. JSE, Kam, Kex, Wooch, Forever Autumn, Smokey and many others are like family to me. I'm personally getting what I want whenever Kam and F.A. go on a "Lost" Bender or Smokey come up with some ridiculous Top 10. I have no big hankering to change the place. However, if these folks were to migrate somewhere's else I'd probably follow them.

2. What do the site aministrators want from this site?

Money from advertising revenue is a fair answer I suppose.

3. Would we find what "we want" anywhere else?

I don't know we might. But I'd have to be sure I'm gonna get better than I get here.

4. Would you pay money say $20 a year to improve this site? Cut down on the crappy advertising hire some real "Staff" and get some proper bandwidth?

I would, ya gets what ya pay for.

These are the things that crossed my mind about this place. Yeah it's not as hectic as it once was or frenetic either, but it's a lot more civil (for the most part) and I don't mind having this place as my once quiet little backwater of the net.

Da Worfster

[dingus]

.... After building and installing about 19 HT's for family and friends over the years I've little patience for holding another breathless noobs hand through the learning/buying process. God Bless those of you that do have the patience to do it but I dont. But be that as it may I'll help when and where I can.


.... Would you pay money say $20 a year to improve this site? Cut down on the crappy advertising hire some real "Staff" and get some proper bandwidth?

I would, ya gets what ya pay for.

why not do an HT 101 thread. it could be a one time post if you wanted, let others make additions and keep it updated with current offerings. newbies would simply be pointed to the thread, end of handholding.

i wouldnt pay $0.01 towards the maintenance of any site. its the members that make the site, providing 100% of the content, why should they then pay for the privilege? sites that utilize ads for funding are much preferred, over those that "pass the hat", in my book.

[Smokey]

I'm personally getting what I want whenever Kam and F.A. go on a "Lost" Bender or Smokey come up with some ridiculous Top 10.

Was that a compliment or sarcasm http://www.techsupportforum.com/images/smilies/4-diss1.gif

Thanks for kind words, and also as an old member I may put in my bit too.

AR always has been notorious for free-for-all audio forum without too much supervision or moderation. It was true back in 2001 when I join, and it seem to be true today. Not like other audio forum that run a tight ship (Audiokarma or Audioasylum come to mind), in AR you are pretty much on your own.

[Blue Meanie]

Haven't been there in years, but when did Audioasylum turn into a 'tight ship'? That place was a zoo, years ago.

Jeff

[markw]

Haven't been there in years, but when did Audioasylum turn into a 'tight ship'? That place was a zoo, years ago.

JeffSome of the blessed can say anythng they want with impunity.

[Smokey]

Some of the blessed can say anything they want with impunity.

Of course. It is called executive privilage :)

[PeruvianSkies]

so now what.....

[Corto Maltese]

I am a newbee, and active community on this site did attract me, because I found some of the reviews and threads / comments bordering with professional work, packed in nice language. I am sick and tired of miserable (or overly happy) people. Being in music for a very long time, I got a lot of negative things, and I don’t need more of that punishment. Info is possible to find elsewhere, some of the other sites are more active, but so far it looks like AR is not playground for idiots.
I will try to join in as many threads as possible – if I can really make a contribution to the discussion.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Welcome Corto. Enjoy your stay.

Hey, GM, he thinks this forum is NOT a playground for idiots. :devil:

[GMichael]

Welcome Corto. Enjoy your stay.

Hey, GM, he thinks this forum is NOT a playground for idiots. :devil:

Well, except for you, me and a few others, he's right. I've been to other sites where more than half the requlars don't know crap about real sound. If I have any questions, I always post them here because the people here know so much more than I do. On other sites, I find myself being the one answering the questions.:mad2:

[Kam]

I've been monitoring this thread since getting P.Skies invitation. I'm old school here. I date back before the change over and lost about 800 posts or so in the transition. I've also lost some reviews. To be honest I've absolutely no deisre to return to the days of Tube vs. Solid State, Analog vs. Digital, Planar uber alles, nOrh vs. Swan Divas or the merits of Consumer Reports vs. Double Blind tests. etc... I've seen/read/lived through all that crap and have no desire repeat history.

i remember the old board and the transition over to the new board and all the discussions that fostered (and arguments). wasn't it beige? i think some really dull beige color if i remember correctly. would be great to see a screen cap if anyone (site managers?) are reading this and have it archived somewhere. oh man, i do not miss all the norh threads, wow that was beating a dead horse. i do miss woodman though. :(

but i agree with worfster, quality over quantity for us, but i understand the people who run this want quantity as well. i guess just keep posting quality :)

[Rich-n-Texas]

I read a post from Wooch indicating how it's hard to keep up with a question you may ask on the AVS forums due to the amount of traffic, and jvc indicated that apparently flame wars and personal attacks are abundant there but does that mean a sense of community doesn't exist there as well?

I can get info there that relates specifically to my remote, or my exact brand of TV...etc. There are 13 forums there with a total of 73 sub forums. Is that overkill?

[Corto Maltese]

Overkill?
btw, thanks for welcome.
I posted only one question on 6 forums (1 here just few days ago, "Living room compromise”). No info on Tannoy C-10. And one can see – at AR, only nice comments. Somewhere else, in 2-3 days (no time to see, too much work) I would get about 50 posts and after reading random, say, 7, I would give up on all others.
Those 7 would be bashingthenewguy, urstupidmesmrt, and other alike, telling me the dominant profile.
Canuck Audio Mart (http://www.canuckaudiomart.com/) is not that bad.

Please, just keep posting quality. News, pics, all. If I get something interesting from Canada, I’ll share it with you. Like this one below. It is for this system (110V), but it is a great simplified info for novice anywhere in the world. Few years ago (I was still part of the automotive industry) I tried to explain ground loop to exec - we had some problems in the lab. Wish I had this. Now I drive long haul truck for living. It is easier, and more money. A lot more, for the work.

http://www.aes.org/sections/pnw/pnwrecaps/2005/whitlock/whitlock_pnw05.pdf

[Rich-n-Texas]

You get trolls everywhere you go. We have one here. You'll know him by the red dot under his username.

[PeruvianSkies]

You get trolls everywhere you go. We have one here. You'll know him by the red dot under his username.

You know that brings up something interesting....

I notice that if you don't check around on here once or twice a day you can easily lose track of certain threads, so if the traffic was 10x what it is...there would be 1. more trolls and 2. more posts, which may not necessarily be a good thing.

I think that we have a good concentration in our threads of useful, helpful information, which means that (unlike other sites) this one is quite good when it comes to getting your question answered without too much garbage in there, with the exception of a few people around here, most of the time we are very positive and try to be as helpful as possible.

[GMichael]

with the exception of a few people around here, most of the time we are very positive and try to be as helpful as possible.

Can I be one of the exceptions? Please? Huh? Can I?

[Rich-n-Texas]

Can I be one of the exceptions? Please? Huh? Can I?
If the shoe fits... :biggrin5:

I've been spending some time lurking on the AVS forum, and you're not kidding! The traffic over there is 100x what it is here, and some threads are a mile long! The bad thing about that is, some of the still-active topics were started years ago with most of the information being, in some topics way out-of-date. There are topics about something that I have a question about that would probably be answered, but reading through, in some threads 50 pages of responses is out of the question.

[GMichael]

If the shoe fits... :biggrin5:

I've been spending some time lurking on the AVS forum, and you're not kidding! The traffic over there is 100x what it is here, and some threads are a mile long! The bad thing about that is, some of the still-active topics were started years ago with most of the information being, in some topics way out-of-date. There are topics about something that I have a question about that would probably be answered, but reading through, in some threads 50 pages of responses is out of the question.

It's a nice place to visit when you're bored out of your mind, but I wouldn't want to post there. I go to get updates on LOST durring the season.
It's also helped me to find a lot of information on gaming lately.

[Rich-n-Texas]

REAL men play PC games! :ihih:


It's a nice place to visit when you're bored out of your mind...
Which is exactly how things at work have made me recently. Too much time on my hands (how's that saying go... idle hands are the devils workshop?)

I noticed that when I clicked on this topic, the progress box in the status bar filled up fully with the green squares indicating "done", it disappeared, but nothing happened (the new page didn't load). The phishing filter was still active meaning something was going on, but I had to click refresh to get the new page up. I don't like to use "High" security settings because I think you'll loose some relative content when you go that route.

[Luvin Da Blues]

REAL men play PC games! :ihih:

Hey Rich, I thought real men played Hockey or Football.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Well, besides that...

Hey! How 'bout them EA-GL-ES EAGLES!!!

[GMichael]

Well, except for you, me and a few others, he's right. I've been to other sites where more than half the requlars don't know crap about real sound. If I have any questions, I always post them here because the people here know so much more than I do. On other sites, I find myself being the one answering the questions.:mad2:

I rest my case. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35791

[Rich-n-Texas]

Glad you don't generate as much hostility here as you do there. :rolleyes5:

I wonder if not you, who he was directing his pointed remarks to? He appreciated your "second to last post" but not your last post.:idea:

I think markw set him straight though...

[PeruvianSkies]

Well, besides that...

Hey! How 'bout them EA-GL-ES EAGLES!!!

Maybe they should wear those uniforms all year, they look like a neon version of the old Rams jerseys....yikes, but wow could they play football in them, at least this week.

My Fantasy Football team is tanking! I am 2-1, but a long road ahead. My only hope is my Bears defense and Carson Palmer.

[Rich-n-Texas]

Maybe they should wear those uniforms all year, they look like a neon version of the old Rams jerseys....yikes, but wow could they play football in them, at least this week.

My Fantasy Football team is tanking! I am 2-1, but a long road ahead. My only hope is my Bears defense and Carson Palmer.
Whoever has Brian Westbrook and NcNabb made a killing last Sunday!

The Bears were a total let-down on both sides of the ball, and I don't think Grossman's future there is a lock anymore.

Apparently back in the 30's graphics weren't very advanced because I saw nothing to indicate the team nickname or logo on the helmets or jersey's. Someone pointed out that if you looked at the helmet straight on you'd see eagles wings...

[Fred333]

Grossman is done in Bears Country. I really hope Greise can do something with that offense.

[bobsticks]

My only hope is my Bears defense and Carson Palmer.

Good luck with that.

[PeruvianSkies]

Good luck with that.

I was offered a trade: Boldin and Eli Manning for Palmer...

I changed the offer: Brett Favre and Boldin for Palmer and Ladell Betts.

[Mygaffer]

(Necro!)
While this site has a lot of great info I have noticed that there is a lot more acrimonious debate on this forum than some others and that some of the moderators engage in what might be called trolling on other forums.

The biggest thing that might make this forum more enjoyable is tougher moderation.

[TheHills44060]

If the shoe fits... :biggrin5:

I've been spending some time lurking on the AVS forum, and you're not kidding! The traffic over there is 100x what it is here, and some threads are a mile long!

Most of AVS is is fluff though with only a few knowledgeable posters considering the amount of activity...plus the moderators are ridiculous. I got banned from that site long ago because I posted unfavorable equipment reviews from one of their sponsors. You can guess which one it is.

Audiokarma and AudioAficionado are quality sites like Audioreview.

Yikes 2007, just noticed.