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JohnMichael
08-21-2007, 11:06 AM
This will be my first low output moving coil. Several of you have talked about how impressed you were with different models of low output moving coil cartridges. My concern is how well the Rotel phono preamp will work with a low output cart. The only adjustment on the unit is the switch for mm/mc. I worry the preamp might be the limiting factor.

The Benz Gold is priced at $350 but by trading in an old cart you can purchase it for $225. I wanted to hold onto some money in case I like the cartridge and find I will need a new preamp. In the future I will be able to trade the cartridge in for a better one in the Benz line and receive a good discount. All that I have read indicates I should be happy with it.

I will post my reactions to the cartridge after I have lived with it for several days. I considered the Dynavector and the AT movingcoil but was happy with the price of the Benz.

jim goulding
08-21-2007, 02:25 PM
That's a title of a Patti Smith song from her fifth album after a log haitus. What punk/pop musician writes a song like this? It's about the killing of US Marines in Lebanon and like a lot of her stuff, it's brillantly mixed. I don't know a how young woman comes up this kind of understanding.

But that's not why I'm replying to you. I've owned several low output moving coils myself. Lucky for me, I knew an opthomologist who used to visit Japan twice a year and bring back MC's in his luggage, not so legal I think, and would pass a few my way for pennies on the US dollar. This was before the Yen went nuts. I've stepped em up with various pre preamps and stepup transformers. I have fond memories of the dynamic life of an Accuphase with a PS Audio transformer, I'm jealous of the excitement I think you're in for.

You'll have plenty of step up devices available to you if you need em and your MC's output is around 5 ohms. Most are these days. You can look at Acoustic Sounds and Music Direct for devices of good pedigree and you probably know that. Some are pretty affordable.

You have fun, buddy!

royphil345
08-23-2007, 12:09 PM
I had the Rotel... It worked fine with a moving coil. I had some hum until I thought to remove it from being stacked on another component. It'll work fine with any moving coil a 100 ohm load is suitable for.

Although, I think with a different phono stage... You might be perfectly pleased with any one of the fine cartridges you already own. The Rotel always made my vinyl rig sound a bit dry and thin. There was never any way around it... no matter how many cartridges I bought... No way to fine-tune loading or capacitance, which I've found can go a long way towards flattening frequency response and "focusing" the soundstage.

I really do think you'd be EXTREMELY pleased with a Jolida JD-9A. I know it's a chunk of change to spend all at once... But, you'll end up spending more trying to get good sound other ways just like I did... and never getting the desired results. I can 99.9% guarantee you would not regret spending the money after hearing it. MAJOR difference.

I was using the Denon DL-103 when I bought the Jolida. It improved the sound of that GREATLY. Just for kicks, I recently tried my old Shure M97xE with the Jolida. I always loved the tonal balance, mids and bass that cartridge delivered, but there was a slight lack of "air" and a hardness in the highs. It sounds FANTASTIC with the Jolida and I may just go back to using it as my main cart. The ease, detail, tracking and neutrality are nothing short of amazing for such a modestly-priced cart. Just took buying the Jolida to hear more of it's potential. I honestly think any quality cartridge would sound excellent run through the Jolida. Just a matter of what "flavor" you like and how much detail retrieval you want to pay for from there... I think having the tonearm height adjusment I didn't have before helped get more out of the Shure too... Not as much as purchasing the Jolida helped though.

I've been having some fun lately posting vinyl rips on a torrent site and swapping / comparing them with some posted by others... joining discussions... I've gotten nothing but compliments. A guy who was also posting some beyond excellent sounding vinyl transfers told me not to touch a thing. (That was with the Denon DL-103 and I'm pretty sure I'm liking the old Shure MM even better now)

Bought my Jolida here... http://www.uptownaudio.com/jolida/jdStore.htm Best price I could find on the web and they shipped it out seemingly the very moment they got my order.


Would love to hear your impressions on the Benz... I've been curious about that one. Not much info available about it on the web.

Hope you get a good one!!! :)


EDIT: I was just checking out the Benz Gold... Looks like they recommend a 200 ohm load or greater. It'll sound a little thin with the 100 ohm load of the Rotel. Greater load and capacitance settings seem to increase the midrange energy. Definitely get a more tweakable phono stage and you will be happy. The Musical Surroundings Phonomena and Trigon Vanguard II, MM/MC Phono stages have finer steps for tweaking than the Jolida. Pricier though... and I think I heard someone say the Jolida sounds better than the Phonomena... I really don't think you can beat the value of the Jolida. It definitely sounds head and shoulders above "entry level" at a very reasonable price.

royphil345
08-30-2007, 12:20 PM
Naw...

The Denon DL-103 beats the Shure hands down. Shure sounded pleasing at first on some recordings.... mostly due to my very bright-sounding room which has always been a problem. May be some kind of sound reducing technology used in this apartment building. Seems like everything just sounds "dead" except for the extreme highs. I've replaced every component and several pairs of speakers over the years thinking this can't be. One of the pairs of speakers sounds incredible at my brother's house with a "flat" eq setting... Oh well... I've begun experimenting with an eq and things are getting better.

Anyway...

The Denon sounds VERY close to the way CDs sound on my system. The detail might even be a little cleaner... less "tizzy". Slight added warmth in the mids... Slight dropoff at frequency extremes... probably due to the conical stylus / old-fashioned design. Best sounding cartridge I've had yet though.

The Shure seems less focused... "cloudier"... Bigger peaks and valleys in the frequency response (seems like the case with most moving magnets). The less stable soundstage / imaging seem to make listening less enjoyable than listening to the Denon in the long run.

So... I think you will like the moving coil experience. Though, you probably will need a phono stage with adjustable loading to get the most out of it...

nightflier
08-30-2007, 01:59 PM
JM,

What made you decide on the Benz (besides price)? Like Roy said, there isn't much info online about it, and since I haven't heard anything from Benz (although they do have a decent reputation), I was just curious what you had heard read.

After you put it through its paces, let us know what you think of it.

JohnMichael
08-31-2007, 06:52 AM
I chose the Benz based on several things. Reviews I have read in the past. Also the weight and compliance of the cartridge being a good match for the RB250. The discount from Benz for trading in another cartridge. To my knowledge this is not one of the Benz cartridges that are made in Switzerland but designed by Benz and made in Japan. I have owned two high output moving coil cartridges and this will be my first low output. Since I was not sure how happy I would be I decided to start cheap.

As royphil345 mentions I may not be happy with my phono preamp and I still have money left for one. I have been looking at the Jolida and have also thought about the Trigon. The new less expensive Simaudio Moon LP3 preamp is also being considered.

Today I am not listening to music I am waiting for the doorbell to ring with the UPS man on the other side holding my cartridge.

royphil345
08-31-2007, 09:01 AM
The Benz Gold looks very tempting to me. Supposed to be a smoother sounding cartridge which is what I generally like. Looks like it could be a step up from my Denon... although it's still sounding great. The prices with a trade-in and for a retip look tempting...

The Benz Ace or Glider would be my "dream cartridge" I think. I've heard them described as being just a little more open, detailed, and at the same time, slightly more relaxed sounding than the Denon. They're really outside my budget though for something that needs to be replaced every 500 hours or so. Wouldn't be surprised if I end up giving the Gold a shot sooner or later...


What they call "adjustable gain and loading" on the Simaudio Moon LP3 is basically MM 40dB gain at 47K ohms or MC 60dB gain at 100 ohms. Capacitance may be set at 0 or 100 pF. Really no more flexable than the Rotel and won't give you the >200 ohm load recommended for the Benz. http://simaudio.com/moonlp3.htm I'm also finding a higher capacitance setting seems to work better with higher end equipment and cables that have little capacitance on their own...

jrhymeammo
08-31-2007, 07:20 PM
Big Congrats to you, JM.
I would be very curious to what Jolida can do to your system. I know Roy is very happy with 12AX7M by GT inside of JD9. Also, you can always have it moded by Underwood hifi. Simaudio would be very tempting, but you wont be able to tweak it..

JRA

JohnMichael
09-01-2007, 09:27 AM
The Gold arrived Friday. I was going to wait until Saturday to mount it but could not wait. The cartridge works well in the RB250 without the need for the 2mm spacer. After installing I switched the Rotel RQ-970BX to MC mode. Turned on the table turned on the phono preamp and turnted on the int. amp. So far no noise and that was my biggest concern. I also found that I had almost the same volume with the int. amp's volume control at the same position it would be with a moving magnet cartridge.

Of course the cartridge is not broken in yet but I am pleased so far. Listened to For Duke which is a direct to disc album. I think what struck me most was the greater ability to hear the music and then be able to listen to an individual musician. Other vinyl so far has been Michelle Shocked "Short, Sharp, Shocked" and the Manhattan Transfer "Vocalese". I enjoy both albums but have always wondered if they could sound better. They do. The soundstage is less cluttered. By this I mean images are more focused and with the greater depth more space between performers. I do not know if I was hearing resonances from the removable stylus assemblies or some kind of reflections that would create ghosting that made it sound like more instruments or some low level confusion to the performance.

The cartridge is smooth but detailed. Bass is good with more texture to low strings and better definition. Midrange is good as are the highs. The cartridge has greater clarity and is more communicative. Surface noise is much less than the MM's I had been using. I am anxious to hear the changes as the cartridge breaks in more.

With the very low output of .4mv I am glad I had the tonearm rewired. There are no solder joints in the length of the wire from the cartridge clips to the rca's. In the original wiring harness there would have been two solder joints and three thickness of wires.

After the cartridge has broken in I will then listen to the Rotel to hear how it is doing. Right now it is noise free and as listenable as I have always thought it was. I am going to try and borrow a phono preamp to compare if I decide I need a new one.

Setup of the cartridge was done using the following items; MoFi GeoDisc for overhang and offset angle, Shure stylus force gauge for vertical tracking force. Once I have the cartridge mounted using the GeoDisc I confirm the position with "The Rega Baerwald Arc Protractor" from www.vinylengine.com and the free protractor from www.enjoythemusic.com. This gives me a triple check for my aging eyes that assures me I have everything correct.

I will report more as the cartridge breaks in and I look forward to anymore phono preamp advice.

Thanks,

JohnMichael
09-15-2007, 10:01 AM
Well the cartridge is breaking in nicely. As advertised the sound is very smooth. More body to the sound, more three dimensional then with the moving magnet cartridges I have used. There is less congestion to the soundstage. Individual instruments are more in focus.

As I have mentioned in another post while the cartridge has been breaking in a friend offered me a chance to try his preamp. I was not interested at first but we swapped. I am now using his Cambridge Audio 640P and he has the Rotel. The 640P has better high frequency extension, more defined bass and is quieter. The 640P does a good job with the Benz Goldand there is no noise or other problems. I am really surprised at the improvements with the CA. We will be ABing them together soon. The Rotel was 11years old this month so I do not know if it is still up to original specs.

I have been talking to salesmen about phono preamps and listening to their ideas. One suggested the Simaudio Moon LP3 which is what I had been thinking. It has internal jumpers so the impedance can be set for 100 ohms or 470 ohms and the salesman suggested using whatever sounds best. I am a little concerned about a tubed phonostage and problems that can develop. Of course for now I am being pleasantly surprised by the 640P.

jrhymeammo
09-15-2007, 04:05 PM
Good on you, JM. If CA is performing beautifully, then I would go with that. I would be very interested to hear LP3. Something tells me that it would sound a bit cold(I dont know why).

If my Denon eats shjt, I think I'll try the Benz. But I can trade it in for a brand new 301 for around $150 so...

Keep us updated on your decision, but for now "Happy Listening".

JRA

royphil345
09-17-2007, 06:30 AM
Glad to hear it's working out. I just know the whole time I had my Rotel phono stage, I was never really crazy about how my vinyl sounded. Like you, I was very slow to replace it. It seemed like a quality unit, parts quality was exceptional and I couldn't really put my finger on anything it was doing wrong.

If reliability worries are the only thing stopping you from considering the Jolida... I wouldn't worry. It's hybrid, very quiet, parts quality looks good. The only tubes are the two 12AX7 preamp output tubes that should last between 5 and 10 years. I still have to wonder how good that Benz would sound with loading set in the recommended range.

JRA... I ended up using the NOS Brimar tubes after all. After getting better acquainted with the Jolida... It seemed my problem was that the output of my cart (.5mv) was right on the borderline of what's recommended for the two moving coil gain settings. .5mv is actually the exact cutoff between the two. The lower gain setting sounded too "stuffy" with the stock tubes, so I just ignored it from then on. The NOS Brimar tubes had higher gain and sounded worse on the high gain setting I was using than any of the other tubes I tried. The GT 12AX7-M sounded pretty darn good at the high gain setting, but I was still wishing there was an "in between" gain setting at times.

Just recently thought to try the Brimar tubes with the lower gain setting and it's sounding like the magic recipe to me so far. Clearer, sweeter and just more "right" sounding than the GT tubes and higher gain setting.

Goes to show you can never have too many "tweak" settings and the ability to roll tubes can be very helpful indeed.

...Leaves me with a spare set of GT 12AX7-M that would probably sound beyond excellent on the high gain setting with a cartridge having a lower .3mv output... like a Benz or something... LOL

JohnMichael
09-20-2007, 08:48 AM
Royphil345 I am glad to learn of your experiences with tube phono preamps. I was concerned about reliability.

As far as the Rotel is concerned I think it was too forward in presentation. A little to in your face. At first the CA seemed a little reticent. Now that I am used to the sound and presentation I have no interest in using my Rotel. Which of course means I need to buy a new preamp or keep avoiding my friend who wants his CA 640P back.

I think the Benz is sounding good and is probably broken in by now. I to wonder how it would sound with the proper loading. Bass and midrange is good and overall sound a little on the warm side. I have always read that proper loading would affect the high frequencies the most. If the proper loading would make the cartridge less bright I will say this cartridge does not need help in this area. It is smooth.

The CA 640P is surprisingly good. I would recommend it to anyone wanting a preamp for less than $200. Now that I have vented speakers I am glad it has a subsonic filter. Warped records created quite a bit of cone flutter but with the subsonic filter in use the cone moves more normally. I have also read this helps the amp by it not trying to produce that low frequency.

Will I ever play the cdp again?

royphil345
09-20-2007, 09:20 AM
Will I ever play the cdp again?


LOL... I haven't been using mine much at all lately. I was also going to suggest that maybe you should just avoid the owner of the Cambridge :)...


As far as the loading goes... What changing the settings seems to do is help focus the soundstage. It's hard for me to put into words... It seems that all cartridges have slight bumps and dips in the frequency response due to the mass of the stylus assembly and the force that must be applied for tracking. Seems with the ability to tweak settings... you can place these bumps and dips so that the sound is most natural and the timing of the music is right. For example... The highs on my Shure M97xE sounded "hard" and "bunched up" using other phono stages (common complaint about the cartridge). Setting the capacitance higher than the preset value used on most phono stages (as recommended by Shure) opened things up in just the right frequency ranges to make the sound much smoother and the timing seem better from the back to the front of the soundstage... if that makes any sense... LOL... But, the overall tonal balance wasn't much effected.

JohnMichael
09-21-2007, 07:33 AM
Royphil345 I wanted to let you know that I ruled out the $33,250 Boulder phono preamp. Of course that would raise the cost of my system to $36,750. One thing I realized is that with the ttable, modifications, phono cartridge and preamp half of the value of my core system is dedicated to vinyl. Sounds like money well spent to me. Of course if I figured in speakers, phono cartridges, extra cables and etc. the amount would be higher. Still not high enough to justify a $33,250 phono preamp.

jrhymeammo
09-22-2007, 02:02 PM
JRA... I ended up using the NOS Brimar tubes after all. After getting better acquainted with the Jolida... It seemed my problem was that the output of my cart (.5mv) was right on the borderline of what's recommended for the two moving coil gain settings. .5mv is actually the exact cutoff between the two. The lower gain setting sounded too "stuffy" with the stock tubes, so I just ignored it from then on. The NOS Brimar tubes had higher gain and sounded worse on the high gain setting I was using than any of the other tubes I tried. The GT 12AX7-M sounded pretty darn good at the high gain setting, but I was still wishing there was an "in between" gain setting at times.

Just recently thought to try the Brimar tubes with the lower gain setting and it's sounding like the magic recipe to me so far. Clearer, sweeter and just more "right" sounding than the GT tubes and higher gain setting.

Goes to show you can never have too many "tweak" settings and the ability to roll tubes can be very helpful indeed.

...Leaves me with a spare set of GT 12AX7-M that would probably sound beyond excellent on the high gain setting with a cartridge having a lower .3mv output... like a Benz or something... LOL

That's cool man. I still need to grab some 12AX7M. I've been putting it off for the longest time.. but I think I'll upgrade 2 pairs of 6922 with Platium grade Type 2 for my pre first.

Do you think you'll ever modify your JD9 from Underwood?

JRA

royphil345
09-22-2007, 03:49 PM
The GT-12AX7-M are awesome sounding tubes... I'm back to using them after my little experiment. I had everything set as good as it can get with what I got. Just always have to mess with things a little more and make sure. :) It's really sounding fine. Like I said... Acoustics are TERRIBLE in here. Nothing ever really sounds great. That's why I tend to keep messing around with stuff. My vinyl rig is sounding better to me than my CD player though. No complaints at all for what I spent.

The Underwood mods look interesting. I probably won't do it. I'm sure some improvements could be made in the area of detail. Not sure if it would make that much of a difference in my modest system. Also, I'm not going to bother with any further upgrades until I get out of this horrible sounding building. You'd have to hear it to believe it. The building seems to "eat" any sound under under around 10 khz. Anything over that comes at you full-force and reflections get brighter with each bounce. I've spent too much money over the years replacing speakers and components I thought were maybe the problem. I would have had a much nicer system by now if it wasn't for that and if it was even worth putting better sounding components in this horrible sounding place. I really should move or find a different hobby... LOL

I also think I like the almost "vintage" sounding character of the Jolida. Between that and the punchy bass and dynamics... I'm enjoying it quite a bit. It seems to suit where I'm at right now with my system and room. Not so sure I'd want to mess with it. I probably would try to get more detail out of it if I had a real sweet and detailed sounding system.... better tonearm... better cart... In this place, warmth has definitely been the most desirable characteristic in any component. As far as acheiving the ultimate clarity and retrieving every last detail... just not where I'm at now... and I'm definitely not even considering trying to go there unlesss I move.

I have to wonder how much of the improvement is simply from them changing out the Chinese tubes. They really lack detail. There are also some op amps in sockets that can be easily changed. The ones in there are known for being warm and fuzzy. The same ones are used in a few pricy CD players though. Seems you can get a nice improvement in detail and smoothness simply by replacing the tubes. Many people rave about the sound of the JD-9 without even doing that.

JohnMichael
09-23-2007, 11:27 AM
I learned something new about the Cambridge Audio 640P. It does not like my Alpha Core Micropurl interconnects. As good as everything was sounding something was bugging me. I could not figure it out. I do not know what made me think of changing interconnects but I replaced the Micropurls with a pair of less expensive AR wires. I have no idea why the MP's reacted the way they did. The overall sound is a little sweeter with a deeper soundstage. What ever was causing me to sense something was wrong is gone. The music flows better. I wish I could better describe the differences.

jim goulding
09-30-2007, 04:46 PM
JM, Hi. I'm just lookin in to see how it's going and I see the albums you were listening to on 9/01. Man, I'm a freak for those albums and own em, too! Happier listening, dude.!

JohnMichael
10-13-2007, 12:35 PM
Still spinning vinyl these days. I did order the CA 640P preamp. The Rotel is in storage along with the NHT SuperOne's (under the bed). The CA was good and an improvement over my 11 year old Rotel. It was inexpensive enough that I will step up when I get a chance to hear something better that I can afford. Cartridge continues to sound very nice.

Special thanks to improved sound goes to JRA. In his "Free" thread he gave a link to a cartridge protractor where it was also suggested to set antiskate by ear. I had always set antiskating by using a grooveless band and setting it so the arm would remain stationary on the rotating disc. I now know I have never had the anti-skating set properly. If you are able to set anti-skating on a continuous range I would try the suggested method.

This is the link provided by JRA.
http://www.vacuumstate.com/various/GuruSetUp.pdf

In the past I worried more about overhang and offset angle then I did about antiskating. There has been different opinions about anti-skating and some arms have had no way to adjust. Also some thought that once a cartridge was tracking 2 grams the weight would keep the stylus evenly seated in the groove. I have found that with the RB 250 and the Benz Gold antiskating properly set is important. One disc that really demonstrates this is Jennifer Warren's "Famous Blue Raincoat". The last song on side 1 "Joan of Arc" contains the Angel Choir that in the past sounded distorted. I believed this to be wear from all the times playing it. Now that the antiskating is correct the sound is clear and free from any distortions.

This old dog learned a new trick.

jrhymeammo
10-13-2007, 03:43 PM
Glad it worked out for ya, JM.

I havent even tried it out myself. I guess ones should always post something that has been proven by themselves first. But hey, it worked out for ya. I LOVE toying with my TT, but I'm quite pleased at the moment. When it's time for a new cart, I will print that sucker up.

Best Regards,

JohnMichael
10-14-2007, 09:07 AM
Just to clarify it was not the protractor that I used but his written instructions on setting the antiskating by ear. Since your arm uses a string and weight for antiskating I do not know if it would work for you. If I used the scale on the tonearm and set it at the same amount as tracking force I would be applying too much antiskate force.

jrhymeammo
10-14-2007, 10:35 AM
Good ups to JM for using his ears to reach audio nirvana.

:0:

jim goulding
10-22-2007, 10:06 PM
Haven't visited you in awhile and wondered how it's going. Good, I can see. MC's tend to be faster with cleaner transients and better separation than MM's as you seem to be appreciating. Re-reading the above I see I said 5 ohms regards step up devices instead of .05 ohms as I think you probably knew. Do you have a dealer in your area? If you contact a dealer online, ask them if they will give you a trial basis. I have what I think is the first ever battery powered step up transformer . . a Marcof PPA2. I think it was about $125 in it's day and was a giant killer back then. Alas, I can't get it to work . . yet. Only just tried recently. Whadda lookin at, if anything? You do have some nice records, man.

jrhymeammo
10-27-2007, 10:31 AM
It's been over a month now. What are your current thoughts on the Benz Micro?

J

JohnMichael
10-27-2007, 12:34 PM
The cartridge is neutral. Not one range of frequencies seems to be emphasized. Good dynamics for both classical and rock. My Sumiko BP sounded good with classical but did not have the dynamics for rock. Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" is a fairly complex orchestral piece and the Gold enables you to hear it all and with better individual instrumental sounds. It is much easier to tell which instruments are being played than with some moving magnet cartridges. Vocals sound more natural and more texture to instruments. There is less blur to the soundstage and depth is good. I am very pleased for the money spent.

jrhymeammo
10-27-2007, 12:44 PM
Who did you get the cart from, and did they care what cartridge you traded in for? I'm still dreaming of Ace in a red body. I think I got some AT cart with a bent needle.

Regards,

JohnMichael
10-27-2007, 01:06 PM
Who did you get the cart from, and did they care what cartridge you traded in for? I'm still dreaming of Ace in a red body. I think I got some AT cart with a bent needle.

Regards,


I ordered it from Needle Doctor. I sent back a very old Grado. Now that I own a Benz I will receive a greater discount when I am ready to move up to an Ace. ND also has trade ins for Denon and Sumiko cartridges.