Paramount and Dreamworks Go HD-DVD Exclusive

[Woochifer]

Just when it looked like the HD optical disc format war was all but over, Paramount and Dreamworks announced that they will drop their support for Blu-ray and go exclusively to HD-DVD. I've been saying all along that HD-DVD was pretty much a dead format walking unless something dramatically shifts the market structure. This clearly qualifies as a major change to the market structure.

Basically, Warner is now the only officially neutral studio left releasing titles in both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. But, given Warner's HD-DVD bias and clear motivation towards steering the market towards its hybrid TotalHD disc format, this puts the studio support on both sides nearly even, with Blu-ray still holding an advantage because of Sony/Fox/Disney's collective market share.

Obviously, there's a lot going on behind the scenes here, but it looks like now the format war will drag on indefinitely, which is not necessarily a good news for HD optical media in general. While the format war has pushed hardware prices down at a rapid rate, it has also kept consumers on the sidelines. And now it very well could wind up costing consumers more in the long run since the necessity for dual format players and/or dual format hybrid discs is more likely.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/08/20/entertainment/e090057D31.DTL&tsp=1&type=entertainment

[PeruvianSkies]

And this is why someone like Pixelthis can't claim that one will win over the other...there are just too many factors as this point that are happening.

[Woochifer]

And this is why someone like Pixelthis can't claim that one will win over the other...there are just too many factors as this point that are happening.

At this point after Paramount's announcement, I don't think anyone can logically claim that one format will win. It's just delusional to claim with any certainty that Blu-ray will still win outright with this kind of announcement, since it fundamentally changes how the market is laid out. In the long run, I still think that Blu-ray has the upper hand, but this kind of announcement can lead to other announcements (i.e., other studios going neutral, or other hardware makers supporting HD-DVD) that can cut into Blu-ray's advantages enough to ensure HD-DVD's survival.

Before Paramount's move though, I thought that Blu-ray was well on its way to claiming a decisive format win by early next year. Too many trends were working in its favor, and it would have taken something dramatic to change HD-DVD's fortunes. Consider this dramatic.

[kexodusc]

Wow, what a difference a day makes. Damn - I was hoping things were going to lean one way or another in time for Christmas...doubtful to happen now.

Oh well...Round 2 - Fight!

[Groundbeef]

Hmmm. Well thats good news for me. At least I know my 360 will be playing new movies for longer....

Still I hope this thing gets resolved soon enough.

On a side note, Wooch have you seen that all NEW 360's will be coming with the HDMI out. Not just the Elite line. Perhaps it should have been that way from the beginning, but now it appears that all players will have it on deck.

[Woochifer]

Well, I suspected that some kind of "behind the scenes" goings were behind Paramount's decision, and here's the short of it ...

Microsoft paid off Paramount and Dreamworks to drop Blu-ray.

Apparently, it's "promotional" considerations and prime placement on their Xbox Live service, along with free VC-1 and HDi authoring tools. Needless to say, Microsoft's intentions all along have been to sabotage the HD optical disc market long enough for HD downloading to take off, and they've obviously now played that hand.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/desperation-move-cash-grab-or-intensified-blu-rayhd-dvd-format-war/

Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits is not happy about this development since it ensures that the format war will linger on. I totally agree with him that this is not good for consumers, and it looks like a cash grab by Paramount and Dreamworks Animation. I also agree that now it would not be surprising to see Microsoft also put a full court press on Warner to get them to drop Blu-ray as well, which would leave the HD optical disc market back at square one -- at an impasse and DOA, exactly how Microsoft wants it. Here are the links...

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa141.html#dp
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

[Woochifer]

Hmmm. Well thats good news for me. At least I know my 360 will be playing new movies for longer....

Still I hope this thing gets resolved soon enough.

On a side note, Wooch have you seen that all NEW 360's will be coming with the HDMI out. Not just the Elite line. Perhaps it should have been that way from the beginning, but now it appears that all players will have it on deck.

Yup, it's a case of "about freakin' time!"

Seems that if Microsoft wants to make things more interesting, they should just integrate the HD-DVD drive into the 360 ASAP. Again, it's something they should have done a long time ago, but at this point it seems to cost them less by bribing neutral studios into dropping Blu-ray (reportedly $150 million for Paramount and Dreamworks).

[L.J.]

Any chance that HD add on thing for the XBOX will get an upgrade to handle HD audio? It only has a standard digital output right?

[Groundbeef]

Any chance that HD add on thing for the XBOX will get an upgrade to handle HD audio? It only has a standard digital output right?

It does have an optical out for audio on the current system. I must confess I am not sure if that answers your question. But now that it will have an onboard HDMI, I would assume that would cover your HD audio needs.

[Groundbeef]

Yup, it's a case of "about freakin' time!"

Seems that if Microsoft wants to make things more interesting, they should just integrate the HD-DVD drive into the 360 ASAP. Again, it's something they should have done a long time ago, but at this point it seems to cost them less by bribing neutral studios into dropping Blu-ray (reportedly $150 million for Paramount and Dreamworks).

Although I would agree that it would prop up HD-DVD more if they were to incorporate it, it would cut into the pricing advantage that the 360 is enjoying over the PS3. And although PS3/Sony has been trying to get people to belive that every PS3 has converted every user into a major Blu-Ray buyer, its not the case. I'll look up sources, but it may be as higher than 30% dont even realize the PS3 plays movies. With MS, if a consumer is buying the HD Drive, its to PLAY MOVIES. So, MS may be able to show that X players are being sold, translating directly into movie sales.

As far as "bribery" thats a bit of a loaded term. If they are out spending Sony, then shame on Sony. Seems to me that they have been caught flat footed AGAIN, and MS has just once again pulled a bit of thunder away from Sony. This has been been SOP for the past few months as Sony has lost exclusive after exclusive in the gaming realm.

They have gotten (Sony) to comfortable and appear to be riding on the good fortunes they have had in the past. Its just not working for them now. Money talks, and BS walks as the saying goes.

[Mr Peabody]

I guess if Gates can't win one way, he will buy the win. Paramount was selling more Blu-ray titles than HD-DVD so I knew it must have taken some big bucks to compensate for that. I also suspected something to hit when Onkyo came out with a $899.00 HD-DVD player.

I did see that movies directed by Spielberg were exempt from the exclusive deal.

I bought my BR player and I don't regret it because it is an incredible upconverter for SD but I am a little leary of buying a bunch of movies until this is settled. This makes the war's outcome start to look more like the SACD/DVD-A scenario. I know the differences but a stalemate will definitely hender the entire HD disc format. There's already a large amount of people who think upsampled DVD is as good, I feel they are wrong, and there's the majority who really don't care about another video format.

[L.J.]

It does have an optical out for audio on the current system. I must confess I am not sure if that answers your question. But now that it will have an onboard HDMI, I would assume that would cover your HD audio needs.

Sorry I should have been more specific. I was refering to movies. Just wondering if the Xbox with the add on will be able to handle HD audio anytime soon. The HDMI out on the 360 is for gaming only right?

[musicman1999]

Terrible news for the consumer,Paramount's switch means only Warner is dual format but how long will that last.The pressure will be on them to pick a side soon.

bill

[Groundbeef]

Sorry I should have been more specific. I was refering to movies. Just wondering if the Xbox with the add on will be able to handle HD audio anytime soon. The HDMI out on the 360 is for gaming only right?

No. Like the old saying "All roads lead to Rome" So goes the 360. Everything, is done with the console. Games, movies, CD's, all of it processed by the console. Basically the HD-DVD is a slave drive that simply reads the movie. All processing is done on board the 360 unit proper. I think that half the reason its so economical, as it really is just a slave drive.

So all audio processed on the 360 be it gaming, video, or music will come out of the HDMI, Optical Out, or audio out connection.

Does that clear it up?

[L.J.]

No. Like the old saying "All roads lead to Rome" So goes the 360. Everything, is done with the console. Games, movies, CD's, all of it processed by the console. Basically the HD-DVD is a slave drive that simply reads the movie. All processing is done on board the 360 unit proper. I think that half the reason its so economical, as it really is just a slave drive.

So all audio processed on the 360 be it gaming, video, or music will come out of the HDMI, Optical Out, or audio out connection.

Does that clear it up?

OK, makes sense now.

[Woochifer]

Although I would agree that it would prop up HD-DVD more if they were to incorporate it, it would cut into the pricing advantage that the 360 is enjoying over the PS3. And although PS3/Sony has been trying to get people to belive that every PS3 has converted every user into a major Blu-Ray buyer, its not the case. I'll look up sources, but it may be as higher than 30% dont even realize the PS3 plays movies. With MS, if a consumer is buying the HD Drive, its to PLAY MOVIES. So, MS may be able to show that X players are being sold, translating directly into movie sales.

It would cut into the 360's price advantage only if Microsoft chooses to pass the unit cost increases along to consumers, which is why I presumed that it's cheaper to pay the studios to drop Blu-ray than to add HD-DVD support to the 360 (and also a lot cheaper than the costs that MS had to write off to fix the 360's motherboard problems).

Frankly I don't see anyone saying that "every PS3 has converted every user into a Blu-ray buyer" so I don't know where you've been reading that. But, no one looking at the market objectively denies that the PS3 has given Blu-ray a decided advantage in the installed user base.


As far as "bribery" thats a bit of a loaded term. If they are out spending Sony, then shame on Sony. Seems to me that they have been caught flat footed AGAIN, and MS has just once again pulled a bit of thunder away from Sony. This has been been SOP for the past few months as Sony has lost exclusive after exclusive in the gaming realm.

As a purely self-serving business maneuver, this was brilliant on Microsoft's part. It completely blindsided the industry, which had been anticipating Universal eventually going neutral and effectively ending this format war. With Paramount (and its distribution of Dreamworks) going HD-DVD exclusive, Microsoft has basically bought time to ramp up its HD downloading model by stifling growth in the HD optical disc market. It's great for Microsoft (and maybe Toshiba), but it benefits nobody else since HD-DVD owners were already getting releases from Paramount anyway.

Bribery is a loaded term, but I think it's appropriate in this case because HD-DVD's major studio support is now entirely paid off by outside interests. Universal has been getting paid by Toshiba, Warner has a direct financial stake as a DVD and TotalHD patent holder, and now Paramount and Dreamworks are getting upwards of $150 million from Microsoft. Unless someone has information to the contrary, I haven't read anything about Sony or any of the other Blu-ray partners doing any kind of payment or in-kind considerations in exchange for studio support.

The market structure since Warner and Paramount originally went neutral in late-2005 had been setup with Blu-ray holding most of the advantages, and the sales lead that Blu-ray built up should not have been a surprise to anyone. Up to this point, Blu-ray has been outmaneuvering HD-DVD for the past 9 months, so I don't know where you get this idea that "Sony" (Blu-ray is more than just Sony) got "caught flat footed AGAIN" (how can Blu-ray get caught flat footed "again" if they have consistently outsold, outreleased, and outpartnered HD-DVD since then?). This is really the first bit of good news for HD-DVD since that time, but no denying that it's a huge coup that could very well end any chance of Blu-ray winning the format war outright.

Now, with this change in the studio support, the HD optical disc market is dangerously close to playing out the original scenario envisioned in early-2005 with the studio support evenly split, and many analysts predicting a HD quagmire with market confusion, limited consumer uptake, and both formats eventually failing as other technologies come to market. The market still can eventually go to the dual format model that Warner envisions, but going dual format includes higher costs for hardware and discs, which again impedes adoption of HD optical discs.

[Robert-The-Rambler]

As an owner of 4 HD-DVD players I'm smiling at this news giving some hope that my investment is not a waste. I was getting a bit nervous.

[PeruvianSkies]

As an owner of 4 HD-DVD players I'm smiling at this news giving some hope that my investment is not a waste. I was getting a bit nervous.

And why exactly (besides exaggeration) do you have 4 HD-DVD players???

[Robert-The-Rambler]

And why exactly (besides exaggeration) do you have 4 HD-DVD players???

I like to have HD movies wherever I might have my fanny placed and HD-DVD in bed is a wonderful thing with a nice little sound system and a 720p TV.

[PeruvianSkies]

I like to have HD movies wherever I might have my fanny placed and HD-DVD in bed is a wonderful thing with a nice little sound system and a 720p TV.

So what are the 4 rooms that you have it set up in and do you have them all connected to TV's or just the one?

[pixelthis]

As an owner of 4 HD-DVD players I'm smiling at this news giving some hope that my investment is not a waste. I was getting a bit nervous.
STAY nervous.
The logic (or lack of) of buying FOUR players from a format not yet established aside,
the fundamentals of the market stay the same.
This just means that toshiba will regain a little more investment before their "format"
tanks.
About all it means short term is a lower price for BLU players, long term it means almost nothing:sleep:

[PeruvianSkies]

STAY nervous.
The logic (or lack of) of buying FOUR players from a format not yet established aside,
the fundamentals of the market stay the same.
This just means that toshiba will regain a little more investment before their "format"
tanks.
About all it means short term is a lower price for BLU players, long term it means almost nothing:sleep:

Ya just don't quit do ya???

[pixelthis]

Of course the end of it all will be downloading as the primary form of "rental",
with whatever format that "survives" (if you want to call it that) the bastion of movie collectors. People are already being trained to download media with ipods, etc,
and they are already downloading movies with gameboxes and cable and the net.
I have always said that this is a THREE player war, with the third "player"
downloading, and that downloading will win.
But for a format that movie collectors will want to archive, they will go for quality
like they did for laser, and hence blu ray will "win".
But only as a format for collectors,
Downloading will win as the "format" of choice for rental, its already my format
of choice:1:

[PeruvianSkies]

Of course the end of it all will be downloading as the primary form of "rental",
with whatever format that "survives" (if you want to call it that) the bastion of movie collectors. People are already being trained to download media with ipods, etc,
and they are already downloading movies with gameboxes and cable and the net.
I have always said that this is a THREE player war, with the third "player"
downloading, and that downloading will win.
But for a format that movie collectors will want to archive, they will go for quality
like they did for laser, and hence blu ray will "win".
But only as a format for collectors,
Downloading will win as the "format" of choice for rental, its already my format
of choice:1:

You are indeed a true 21st Century Nostradamus!

[pixelthis]

Ya just don't quit do ya???
NOPE, and you just dont listen do ya?
Both of these "formats" are the "old" way of thinking, that in order to buy media
you have to get "physical", but the new way of thinking is why buy when what you want
is available on a server somewhere on the planet, available at a moments notice.
We just dont have the petrochemicals to make billions of shiny discs every year just so people can watch movies, downloading is already price competitive with rentals,
with the price of gas going higher downloading looks more attractive all of the time
If the two warring factions had any sense they would team up against their common
enemy, but after three and a half decades of following the electronics industry I have yet
to see anything aproaching "common sense":skep:

[PeruvianSkies]

NOPE, and you just dont listen do ya?
Both of these "formats" are the "old" way of thinking, that in order to buy media
you have to get "physical", but the new way of thinking is why buy when what you want
is available on a server somewhere on the planet, available at a moments notice.
We just dont have the petrochemicals to make billions of shiny discs every year just so people can watch movies, downloading is already price competitive with rentals,
with the price of gas going higher downloading looks more attractive all of the time
If the two warring factions had any sense they would team up against their common
enemy, but after three and a half decades of following the electronics industry I have yet
to see anything aproaching "common sense":skep:

I was always told never listen to those who try and teach their opinion and pass it off as fact.

[pixelthis]

I was always told never listen to those who try and teach their opinion and pass it off as fact.
I have never tried to pass of my "opinion" as fact, just because you cant tell the difference
between an opinion and a statement of fact isnt my fault.
Must be the product of a modern education:crazy:

[drseid]

Well, I suspected that some kind of "behind the scenes" goings were behind Paramount's decision, and here's the short of it ...

Microsoft paid off Paramount and Dreamworks to drop Blu-ray.

Apparently, it's "promotional" considerations and prime placement on their Xbox Live service, along with free VC-1 and HDi authoring tools. Needless to say, Microsoft's intentions all along have been to sabotage the HD optical disc market long enough for HD downloading to take off, and they've obviously now played that hand.

http://www.deadlinehollywooddaily.com/desperation-move-cash-grab-or-intensified-blu-rayhd-dvd-format-war/

Bill Hunt of the Digital Bits is not happy about this development since it ensures that the format war will linger on. I totally agree with him that this is not good for consumers, and it looks like a cash grab by Paramount and Dreamworks Animation. I also agree that now it would not be surprising to see Microsoft also put a full court press on Warner to get them to drop Blu-ray as well, which would leave the HD optical disc market back at square one -- at an impasse and DOA, exactly how Microsoft wants it. Here are the links...

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa141.html#dp
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

Personally I am elated at the news.

While I am just as disatisfied as most that there is a format war in the first place, with HD DVD players coming down in price all of the time, I think this creates a very *good* market for the consumer.

This announcement is gargantuan, and changes the dynamic entirely. I will not predict an HD DVD win, but I would say this announcement actually now gives HD DVD the upper hand in "the war" with an eventual dual-format player result highly likely. I believe this due to the large price differential between the cost of the two formats' respective players, coupled with the recent seeming destruction of the lame combo HD DVD/DVD discs that put HD DVD at a price disadvantage on the software side. With these two developments in hand, HD DVD is well poised to start attracting the average joe at the store. I also believe retailers will have to start to create more shelf space for HD DVD titles and players... It is happy days in the HD DVD camp indeed!

All of the above said, I too was shocked at Paramount's decision. Apart from the already speculated financial arrangement, I too see no reason why they would do this... I guess HD DVD put up some cash, but it may have been the best investment they could have made for long-term survival.

So PixelThis... Still making predictions of HD DVD's immenent demise? :-) Like I have said previously, I believe both formats can survive long-term, and there will be no "winner" (except the consumer). It is still too early to make predictions with any real certanty.

---Dave

[kexodusc]

Well I've visited a lot of forums on this issue in the last day - aside from the HD-DVD and Microsoft fan boys who are giddy like school girls (a thread unto itself), a lot of people are pretty ticked off that Microsoft decided to use its weight to influence the market. This would include the BluRay fanboys, and more importantly, the vast majority of people who are still on the fence and just want the format war to end so they can go either way.

Can't say I'm surprised - and big kudos to MS on a very smart move. Very self-serving, but smart.
The best comments I've seen have been that the only winner in all of this is going to be Microsoft, if there's a winner at all.

Unless BluRay really rallies and continues to build momentum somehow (or Sony starts buying off support too - which would be absolutely hilarious), or other BluRay studios start accepting bribes and go HD-DVD exclusive, these formats are likely headed to some sort of stalemate.

I don't think Microsoft will offer any other studio the same deal. Microsoft isn't exactly married to HD-DVD, and do not want HD-DVD to win anymore than BluRay, especially this early. Their goal, as has been mentioned, is the HD Downloading market - far more potential for profit than their stake in HD-DVD, and we can bet they'll turn on Toshiba and HD-DVD at the most opportune time.

So as a consumer, here's my options for an HD solution:
1) buy an expensive piece of hardware that has limited software support either way, (great I can watch half the movies I like with it), or

2) start looking at HD downloading options, which still offer vastly inferior quality and limited use options comapred to the disk-based formats - and for many will be more expensive because of the service charge/internet access requirements associated with it. It's not really cheaper, or higher quality. Though I am attracted to the convenience element - definitely in my future.

I'm not exactly a happy consumer in the would-be free market today. My hope is the rest of the industy sees Microsoft's move for what it is, and just rallies behind HD-DVD now. This would blindside a lot of people, but it's probably more likely than other HD-DVD supporters going neutral or BluRay exclusive.

Wonder how long companies like Apple and Dell will sit on the sidelines? I'm sure this isn't the last plot twist.

On the plus side, I can't say I'm not deriving some satisfaction in knowing Sony is sweating a bit...

[Rich-n-Texas]

So should I put that Oppo 981HD back in my cart and be happy with SACD's and upconverted 1080p? I'd be able to implement my HDMI inputs... :yesnod: :nonod: :yesnod: :nonod:

[Groundbeef]

I don't think Microsoft will offer any other studio the same deal. Microsoft isn't exactly married to HD-DVD, and do not want HD-DVD to win anymore than BluRay, especially this early. Their goal, as has been mentioned, is the HD Downloading market - far more potential for profit than their stake in HD-DVD, and we can bet they'll turn on Toshiba and HD-DVD at the most opportune time. ...

I think that MS will ride HD-DVD for as long as it takes. Although 150MM is chump change for them, they still have a financial stake in the format. At this point it is more adventageous for them to stick it in Sony's eye than anything else. I don't see them "turning" on Toshiba so much as having HD downloads surpass HD-DVD in sales.





So as a consumer, here's my options for an HD solution:
1) buy an expensive piece of hardware that has limited software support either way, (great I can watch half the movies I like with it), or

2) start looking at HD downloading options, which still offer vastly inferior quality and limited use options comapred to the disk-based formats - and for many will be more expensive because of the service charge/internet access requirements associated with it. It's not really cheaper, or higher quality. Though I am attracted to the convenience element - definitely in my future....

As far as #1, machine prices are only going to go lower. By Christmas a standalone HD-DVD player will be under $200. It may not have all the bells and whistles, but it will run. Currently the 360 HD-DVD addon runs between $149-179 and includes 6 free movies. Not a bad deal.

#2. Have you really ( I mean yourself personally) d/l a HD/ or SD program? Where are you basing "vastly inferior quality" statement from? It has been my experience that the movies that I have personally rented and watched on my Plasma have been OUTSTANDING. Costs are reasonable, around $4.00 per viewing. Your internet cost is "sunk" so that really doesn't factor into the equation. If you are only having cable/DSL just to watch movies then it may be an issue, but for all intents and purposes most people have high speed because they want it. So to try and tie the cost of internet with cost of d/l would be the equivilent of saying rentals at Blockbuster are $$$ because you need to spend $10,000 or so for a car to get there.

I would urge you to find a friend who has a 360, and d/l a movie or 2. You would be amazed how fast, and good the actual product is.





On the plus side, I can't say I'm not deriving some satisfaction in knowing Sony is sweating a bit...

Me either. It's always fun watching the giants stumble. MS has its issues also, but it is nice to see them struggling(Sony). If nothing else it makes them work harder to be better.

[GMichael]

So, I'm thinking, maybe a PS3 for the living room, and an HD-DVD for the bedroom. Or, should I go with an (Xbox + add on) in the living room and a BR for the bedroom. Hmmm...
Plan A seems to cost a little less.

[kexodusc]

I think that MS will ride HD-DVD for as long as it takes. Although 150MM is chump change for them, they still have a financial stake in the format. At this point it is more adventageous for them to stick it in Sony's eye than anything else. I don't see them "turning" on Toshiba so much as having HD downloads surpass HD-DVD in sales.
Bottom line- if MS feels they can make more by incapacitating the HD-DVD format so that downloading is the preferred vehicle of choice for HD movies, they're gonna do that. The profitability of holding a BluRay or HD-DVD patent is insignificant compared to the service charges MS will be raking in. Of course, others will enter that industry soon enough if Microsoft strikes oil. "Turning on them" is a bit harsh of me to say, but I see their actions not as an outright endorsement of the HD-DVD movie format, but rather a tactic to make sure nobody else gets a bigger stranglehold on the HD market. Downloads surpassing HD-disc sales is definitely more desirable for Microsoft than the peanuts they'll take in from HD-DVD. The longer this stupid format war goes, the more attractive HD-DL becomes for a lot of us - I know I don't want to commit to any format that cannot deliver a significant % of the new release market.


As far as #1, machine prices are only going to go lower. By Christmas a standalone HD-DVD player will be under $200. It may not have all the bells and whistles, but it will run. Currently the 360 HD-DVD addon runs between $149-179 and includes 6 free movies. Not a bad deal. The longer this goes, the more I'd expect BluRay to catch up in the price department. There's been little incentive for them to cut prices in the last year, so they haven't done much there really. Why would you cut prices when you're outselling your competition 2:1 or more with higher prices? That'll change now. If it doesn't BluRay will die a quick death. Though I really never thought they'd compete selling $1000 players vs $400 ones so what do I know? I suspect HD-DVD will always be a bit cheaper, but the gap will decrease.


#[QUOTE]2. Have you really ( I mean yourself personally) d/l a HD/ or SD program? Where are you basing "vastly inferior quality" statement from?
Come on...I've DL/purchased plenty of HD and SD material from my HD provider, and have personally watched HD movies through Microsoft's service. In both HD and SD, I've found both below the quality in both sound and video of the same titles on HD-DVD or DVD, usually because of compression, or problems in the hardware that supports the network. You know as well as I do that we could poll a ton of people and get the same answer.

I would say the onus is on any provider to prove to me that their picture and audio quality matches HD-DVDs and BluRays. That said, I'm generally satisfied with what I get, only it's not permanent, and it's not quite as good as the tangible disk format. I suspect eventually bit-for-bit copies will be used and this will address the quality side, and purchase options for permanaent copies will be made available too.


.
Your internet cost is "sunk" so that really doesn't factor into the equation. If you are only having cable/DSL just to watch movies then it may be an issue, but for all intents and purposes most people have high speed because they want it. So to try and tie the cost of internet with cost of d/l would be the equivilent of saying rentals at Blockbuster are $$$ because you need to spend $10,000 or so for a car to get there. Wrong. It absolutely factors into the equation. For me to get the level of service I need to make downloading 30-50 GB movies practical, I need to pay for better service. Eespecially when this really takes off - it is going to put a lot of strain on ISP networks. I'm sure you're well aware of all the subtle talk of "pay by the bit" billing schemes these guys want to use. It's coming - or something to that effect. Imagine a whole neighborhood streaming/dl HD movies, while their kids are downloading MP3's and streaming you tube. It's gonna get more expensive.

Also, the internet costs aren't sunk for a huge portion of the population. Don't just dismiss this. A lot of us are going to have to upgrade services big time to make HD downloading feasible. Monthly service charges will increase as a result. Per month it's not unbearable, I bet over 4-5 years that cost would rival the price of an HD-DVD player at least. To disprove this point, you would have to demonstrate that everyone would have the same demand for their hi-speed internet service whether they download movies or not, and that nobody will have to increase service as a result. I'm sorry I'm not buying that.


I would urge you to find a friend who has a 360, and d/l a movie or 2. You would be amazed how fast, and good the actual product is.
Been there done that. I was impressed - enough that I'm getting one for myself soon...real soon...Just not as impressed as that same movie on the HD-DVD drive.. Are you telling me right now it's absolutely 100% as good in both audio and video? When I saw it, the downloads were in what (I think) MS's proprietary Windows Media-HD format at 720p, and under 7 Mbps 5.1 Dolby Digital. Good, but not nearly as good as HD-DVD. The larger and better your display, the more of an issue this is. I think my TV service provider has similar specs, slightly below. I'll have to ask my brother for the exact specs. Maybe I'm off.



Me either. It's always fun watching the giants stumble. MS has its issues also, but it is nice to see them struggling(Sony). If nothing else it makes them work harder to be better.
I don't get that much satisfaction out of watching someone stumble when it means consumer demand has been bypassed and rendered irrelevant in the process. I hate the arrogance of all these big businesses dictating to us what our choices in the matter will be. It's great they benefit. Not great when/if that comes at my expense. Oh well, happens all the time - like Coke's exlusivity at McDonalds. I've got bigger things to worry about.

I complained when Sony started bribing studios a few years ago, and I'm complaining now. But this is a matter of principle and academics. I'm sure the EU and anit-MS crowd is going to come forward with the anti-trust stuff now...here we go again.

I'll say one thing for MS. They earned a bit of my respect when they extended the XBox warranty...my bro's unit was a coaster for awhile, so he bought a 2nd one. He had both receipts and they actually reimbursed his replacement purchase!

[L.J.]

So far the PS3 has been perfect for my situation. I game as much as I watch BR so it's a win win. Even if BR fell off the planet I would still be able to enjoy whatever BR movies I own and continue to use the system for gaming/streaming.

I had given up my plans on getting an HD DVD player but now I'm thinking about it again. I was reading up on the 360 (been toying with the idea of getting one) at AVS and there seems to be alot of problems with it. My friend is on his 3rd one. Plus I think it can only do DD & DTS. That's really holding me back.

[Groundbeef]

So, I'm thinking, maybe a PS3 for the living room, and an HD-DVD for the bedroom. Or, should I go with an (Xbox + add on) in the living room and a BR for the bedroom. Hmmm...
Plan A seems to cost a little less.

Does it? You can get a premium 360 for $349 + $179(HD-DVD) = $528. Plus 5 free movies and the King Kong HD-DVD with the add-on player for the 360. Composite cable included for HD video. Only has 20 gig HardDrive though, thats a little sad. 360 will run with any standard IR remote or universal remote. Harmony also makes a 360 specific remote.

PS3. 60 gig, w blu-ray on sale for $499 (until the 60 gigs run out. Then price jumps to $599 for the 80 gig hard drive). You get 1 movie, and no freebies. Plus you're on the hook for HDMI cable. If not, you can use the yellow video cable they provide for free (execellent HD playback I hear). Also, you can't use an IR remote control with your PS3, so forget about your fancy universal remote. Have to be satisfied with using your controller.

Add all the extras for the PS3, and its really no bargin.

[Groundbeef]

I had given up my plans on getting an HD DVD player but now I'm thinking about it again. I was reading up on the 360 (been toying with the idea of getting one) at AVS and there seems to be alot of problems with it. My friend is on his 3rd one. Plus I think it can only do DD & DTS. That's really holding me back.

MS has stepped up to the plate recently, and extended the warrenty for 3 years for problems related to machine kills (red ring of death as the phrase goes). Also, they have changed the heat sink configuration, and are now including HDMI in the machine.

Your friend's luck should be changing as far as reliabiltiy. Unfortunatly it is a rather big black eye for MS, but one that I think that they will recover from.

Plus, as a gaming platform it really is good. Depends upon some of the series that you like, but there are a ton of games out for it.

[Groundbeef]

Come on...I've DL/purchased plenty of HD and SD material from my HD provider, and have personally watched HD movies through Microsoft's service. In both HD and SD, I've found both below the quality in both sound and video of the same titles on HD-DVD or DVD, usually because of compression, or problems in the hardware that supports the network. You know as well as I do that we could poll a ton of people and get the same answer.

I would say the onus is on any provider to prove to me that their picture and audio quality matches HD-DVDs and BluRays. That said, I'm generally satisfied with what I get, only it's not permanent, and it's not quite as good as the tangible disk format. I suspect eventually bit-for-bit copies will be used and this will address the quality side, and purchase options for permanaent copies will be made available too.!

While I would agree that the quality is not that of the physical disc, your suggestion that it is 'vastly inferior' is no more accurate. For the huddled masses, the HD d/l you get from at least MS is excellent. I cannot comment on either cable providers, or sat providers because I have never rented from them. But the sound, and video is very crisp, I have never seen artifacting, or other digitial issues with my d/l.

And you know as well as I could that we could poll tons of people and find that I am right as well. I was just suggesting that 'vastly inferior' is a bit much. I don't think that any provider is suggesting that their product is equal too, or surpasses the physical product. But for the 90% that are not A/V freaks, its 'pretty damn good'.



. Wrong. It absolutely factors into the equation. For me to get the level of service I need to make downloading 30-50 GB movies practical, I need to pay for better service. Eespecially when this really takes off - it is going to put a lot of strain on ISP networks. I'm sure you're well aware of all the subtle talk of "pay by the bit" billing schemes these guys want to use. It's coming - or something to that effect. Imagine a whole neighborhood streaming/dl HD movies, while their kids are downloading MP3's and streaming you tube. It's gonna get more expensive.

Also, the internet costs aren't sunk for a huge portion of the population. Don't just dismiss this. A lot of us are going to have to upgrade services big time to make HD downloading feasible. Monthly service charges will increase as a result. Per month it's not unbearable, I bet over 4-5 years that cost would rival the price of an HD-DVD player at least. To disprove this point, you would have to demonstrate that everyone would have the same demand for their hi-speed internet service whether they download movies or not, and that nobody will have to increase service as a result. I'm sorry I'm not buying that. !

Perhaps you are right, in the future if pay per bit becomes prevelant. However, current pricing structures DO NOT support your theory. Unless you can find me that 1 person that gets Hi-Speed internet for the sole purpose of renting movies, your cost for internet is irrelevant. Because I HAVE broadband I am able to rent movies. But my broadband is not for the purpose of renting movies. No more than I bought my mini-van to rent movies at Blockbuster.

And at $30 a pop, it only takes about 1 movie purchase per month of a physical disc to match the cost of a DSL connection.



Been there done that. I was impressed - enough that I'm getting one for myself soon...real soon...Just not as impressed as that same movie on the HD-DVD drive.. Are you telling me right now it's absolutely 100% as good in both audio and video? When I saw it, the downloads were in what (I think) MS's proprietary Windows Media-HD format at 720p, and under 7 Mbps 5.1 Dolby Digital. Good, but not nearly as good as HD-DVD. The larger and better your display, the more of an issue this is. I think my TV service provider has similar specs, slightly below. I'll have to ask my brother for the exact specs. Maybe I'm off. !

No, again, I am not saying it is equal. But it is far better than 'vastly inferior' as you put it. Basically (for myself) I rent a movie from MS in HD if I am considering buying the film. As most video stores in my cental IL town don't rent HD movies, its really the only HD game in town. If I like it, I'll consider buying it. And the HD does really translate into a better picture than an SD d/l.

I use it as a supplemental to buying HD movies. As good? No, but good enough to get a feel for the movie. My display is 50" Pioneer Plasma. Viewed at about 11'.



I'll say one thing for MS. They earned a bit of my respect when they extended the XBox warranty...my bro's unit was a coaster for awhile, so he bought a 2nd one. He had both receipts and they actually reimbursed his replacement purchase!

Actually, I'm kinda wishing mine would break. Maybe I'll get one of them new HDMI ones......

[GMichael]

Does it? You can get a premium 360 for $349 + $179(HD-DVD) = $528. Plus 5 free movies and the King Kong HD-DVD with the add-on player for the 360. Composite cable included for HD video. Only has 20 gig HardDrive though, thats a little sad. 360 will run with any standard IR remote or universal remote. Harmony also makes a 360 specific remote.

PS3. 60 gig, w blu-ray on sale for $499 (until the 60 gigs run out. Then price jumps to $599 for the 80 gig hard drive). You get 1 movie, and no freebies. Plus you're on the hook for HDMI cable. If not, you can use the yellow video cable they provide for free (execellent HD playback I hear). Also, you can't use an IR remote control with your PS3, so forget about your fancy universal remote. Have to be satisfied with using your controller.

Add all the extras for the PS3, and its really no bargin.

But an HD-DVD player cost less than a BR player. I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but my first impression was that this would make the bigger difference.

[Groundbeef]

But an HD-DVD player cost less than a BR player. I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but my first impression was that this would make the bigger difference.

Well, i suppose if you bought HD-DVD that will run you about $300. Lowest price PS3 $499, total cost about $799. Plus cables.

360 + HD-DVD addon, $528. Lowest Price Blu-Ray $449. Almost $1000. Yes, in that instance your first scenario would be less expenisve.

Then you need to also factor in some features. The 360 does have a robust d/l feature as far as films. and other video content. If that figures in, the 360 would still be the best console to buy. Also depends upon the games. Sony has some good ones, but I'm somewhat more partial to the MS system.

[GMichael]

Then you need to also factor in some features. The 360 does have a robust d/l feature as far as films. and other video content. If that figures in, the 360 would still be the best console to buy. Also depends upon the games. Sony has some good ones, but I'm somewhat more partial to the MS system.

This would be my first dip into the whole gaming thing. I know nothing about who has the best games, other than hearing that Wii is top of that class. But I do know what I like. Who has the better racing games of the two?

[musicman1999]

Quality issues aside downloading will not be a viable alternative for some time.The big reason is download speeds are to slow.Here in Canada we are at about 7mbps and my American friends are at 1.9 mbps,while South Korea is at 45 mbps and Japan 61 mbps.Right now our infrastucture wont keep up if downloading was the main method of movie distribution.

bill

[Groundbeef]

It would cut into the 360's price advantage only if Microsoft chooses to pass the unit cost increases along to consumers, which is why I presumed that it's cheaper to pay the studios to drop Blu-ray than to add HD-DVD support to the 360 (and also a lot cheaper than the costs that MS had to write off to fix the 360's motherboard problems). .

Well, it also goes back to the MS talking points. The 360 is a gaming machine. Those that want the ability to play HD-DVD need to pay for it. Plus if HD-DVD dies, MS is not on the hook for a player that supports a dead format only. As stated before MS has stated if HD-DVD ever dies, they are not against a blu-ray addon.





Frankly I don't see anyone saying that "every PS3 has converted every user into a Blu-ray buyer" so I don't know where you've been reading that. But, no one looking at the market objectively denies that the PS3 has given Blu-ray a decided advantage in the installed user base. .

There is the line I was looking for. "PS3 has given Blu-ray a decided advantage in the installed user base." Yes, in absolute terms, PS3 has expanded the base for players. But the base has not translated directly into movie sales. There are plenty of PS3 users who are either unaware that the PS3 is either HD, or offers HD movie playback.

But, for every HD-DVD addon purchase, you can bet that people are buying HD-DVD's as there is no other purpose for buying it.



Up to this point, Blu-ray has been outmaneuvering HD-DVD for the past 9 months, so I don't know where you get this idea that "Sony" (Blu-ray is more than just Sony) got "caught flat footed AGAIN" (how can Blu-ray get caught flat footed "again" if they have consistently outsold, outreleased, and outpartnered HD-DVD since then?). This is really the first bit of good news for HD-DVD since that time, but no denying that it's a huge coup that could very well end any chance of Blu-ray winning the format war outright..

I was simply pointing out that in this round of fighting, MS has been more nimble, and free with the purse strings. Buying out Paramount is simply another example where MS has either gained an exclusive, or bought into a previously "exclusive" that Sony has had for its own. Sony has lost many more exclusives on the gaming side than MS has in the battle for HD gaming. I guess its not so much a slam on Blu-Ray, other than it appears that Sony seemed to be trying to wrap up the fight, and MS pulled the plans out from under them.

It seems like Sony has everything to lose, and MS can only go up.

[kexodusc]

While I would agree that the quality is not that of the physical disc, your suggestion that it is 'vastly inferior' is no more accurate.
Well now we're engaged in a debate of opinion which will take us nowhere...some people would be just as offended as you were by my "vastly inferior" comment that MS is calling these "HD" at all.

I guess I have higher expectations for my HD videos and put too much value on the audio track then. Some people probably wouldn't notice at all, and for many, there will be little added benefit from the disk - I'll concede that.


Perhaps you are right, in the future if pay per bit becomes prevelant. However, current pricing structures DO NOT support your theory.
Only if you assume everyone who would download HD movies already has a sufficient internet service package. I currently would not. There will be marginal costs for many associated with this. When I get my Xbox 360, I will definitley have to upgrade. My connection is sufficient now for our casual browsing/downloading needs...won't be if I want any kind of suitable connection for downloading large files. Dunno about your ISP's , but ours cap our DL capability after so many GB each month based on which service we have. The next level up costs me about $15/month. Speed goes up nominally. A lot of people are going to run into this, ISP's everywhere have similar price structures. Most people don't have the premium internet package.


Unless you can find me that 1 person that gets Hi-Speed internet for the sole purpose of renting movies, your cost for internet is irrelevant. Because I HAVE broadband I am able to rent movies. But my broadband is not for the purpose of renting movies. No more than I bought my mini-van to rent movies at Blockbuster.
Again with this? This logic only works if you assume everyone has suitable internet connections already. I don't and will need to spend more than I am right now as a result. For me, this added expense increase is 100% attributable to the resource demands downloading movies will impose. Not other internet functions. The first $20 or whatever (the level of service I have now) covers the other internet usuage. My decision to download movies will necessitate an added expense.


And at $30 a pop, it only takes about 1 movie purchase per month of a physical disc to match the cost of a DSL connection Well that's 12 fewer titles of superior audio and video quality I'll own each year!!! :D
Well, I guess if that's what people need to tell themselves to justify it.

My point wasn't really to argue the merits of DL vs discs, as much as my frustration that the industry has again denied all logic and forced me to choose between 2 compromised solutions because several major players continue to ignore the market's demands! (I know of very few people that wanted a format war at all) Grrrrr...

On the DL'ing subject...I wouldn't be surprised if the convenience aspect wins out over the quality aspect though. I could see both BluRay and HD-DVD dragging this on a long time while Microsoft gets more people used to the idea of downloading instead of buying tangible disks...enough so that people just give up on BluRay or HD-DVD altogether.

I'm just waiting for Apple to dive into this business too...iFlicks or somethings...(maybe they have it up and running already?).

[Woochifer]

A lot of good comments posted so far ...

Fitting in with kex's scenario, I'm one of those consumers that had been sitting on the fence, and looking forward to going with Blu-ray sometime next year. But, obviously MS put an end to that plan. At this point, I'm not entirely sure what I'll do, and that's exactly the kind of thinking that MS is likely trying to create in the market. MS is HD-DVD's second biggest purported supporter, yet their actions boil down to impeding the market progress for HD optical media in general. Sure, they're trying to take a bigger piece of the pie away from Blu-ray, but ultimately they're also trying to limit how big the overall pie grows.

It's frustrating because Paramount's actions are clearly not market-driven, but rather totally financially driven. I can see how accepting an in-kind arrangement with MS would benefit Paramount and Dreamworks' bottom line. $150 million is petty cash to MS (Microsoft now claims that it's not a cash arrangement), but I would venture to guess that it's worth a lot more than the revenue that Paramount and Dreamworks would get from Blu-ray sales. They are entitled to make that decision, but it's also anti-consumer considering that this action does nothing more than constrict the market and Paramount had already announced several upcoming Blu-ray releases that they have now cancelled.

An underreported aspect of this Paramount/Dreamworks arrangement is that it will only last 18 months. After that time, Paramount is free to ramp up Blu-ray production again.

But, in the context of this format war, 18 months might be enough time for HD-DVD and Warner in particular to force the market into a dual format compromise of some kind. I don't like it, because it still leaves market confusion and any kind of dual format compromise means higher costs for consumers. Unfortunately, this also has long-term ramifications for both formats, as I think this seriously slows down market adoption for both HD optical discs in general.

Without this move, I seriously doubt that HD-DVD would have remained a viable format for 18 months. The whole market moving to Blu-ray I think would end any lingering confusion, more rapidly ramp up the market for HD optical discs, with lower costs for consumers in the long run. With HD-DVD in the mix as a viable minority format, this increases the likelihood of both formats failing. As I've said before, the real competition should be the DVD, and I doubt that retailers will be too happy with maintaining triple inventories indefinitely. If the HD disc market begins to plateau at any point, I can see retailers pulling back on their orders and letting the Blu-ray and HD-DVD sections languish, which leaves consumers stuck with 480p DVDs much like SACD/DVD-A's failure leaves music fans stuck with two-channel 44.1/16 CDs.

As far as HD downloads go, I think it's a nonfactor so long as these downloads have time and/or view limits. If these downloads could reside on one's hard drive with no time or view limits, then I would see them as viable competition for HD optical media. But, with these restrictions in place, they are not yet viable replacements for disc purchases, but rather a lateral move away from rentals and PPV.

Plus, aside from these HD downloads (at least with the Xbox service) coming with only 720p resolution, I'm also curious as to how they handle the audio. Are we talking about 448k Dolby Digital? Or the lower resolution (and noticeably inferior) 384k Dolby Digital, which is what you get with HDTV broadcasts? And is there any kind of DTS option? Either way, I doubt that these video downloads will come with lossless audio. The mass market might not care, but it's yet another way that HD downloads might wind up taking a step back.

Microsoft is obviously trying to grease the tracks for HD downloading, but that market has a lot of other players waiting in the wings. Depending on how the market plays out, Microsoft might be doing nothing more than the dirty work for other players like Comcast, Time Warner Cable, Directv, Dish, and Apple who all likely have their own HD PPV/downloading plans.

[Woochifer]

I was simply pointing out that in this round of fighting, MS has been more nimble, and free with the purse strings. Buying out Paramount is simply another example where MS has either gained an exclusive, or bought into a previously "exclusive" that Sony has had for its own. Sony has lost many more exclusives on the gaming side than MS has in the battle for HD gaming. I guess its not so much a slam on Blu-Ray, other than it appears that Sony seemed to be trying to wrap up the fight, and MS pulled the plans out from under them.

It seems like Sony has everything to lose, and MS can only go up.

Again, you're singling out Sony, when Blu-ray is more than just Sony. Also, Paramount was not an "exclusive" rather they were the only truly neutral major studio (Warner is purportedly neutral, but they've got financial stakes and patents in the DVD, HD-DVD, and TotalHD formats).

The anti-consumer aspect of this action is that Paramount is taking away an option that consumers previously had, and cancelling disc releases that they had previously announced. It's very different than Universal or any of the other "exclusive" studios going neutral, because that would entail expanding market options and have more market-driven justification. At this point, Paramount's move is not market-driven at all, since it entails them purposely taking a payout in order to reduce their product sales. (This happens in other industries as well, and hardly ever to the benefit of consumers)

Like I said, brilliant and very self-serving move on MS' part. Despite the market shift, Blu-ray still has the upper hand, and will likely maintain a market share lead, but they no longer have a sense of inevitability. A lot of things have yet to play out, and everything's setting up for a very interesting holiday season.

[Groundbeef]

Again, you're singling out Sony, when Blu-ray is more than just Sony. Also, Paramount was not an "exclusive" rather they were the only truly neutral major studio (Warner is purportedly neutral, but they've got financial stakes and patents in the DVD, HD-DVD, and TotalHD formats).

Like I said, brilliant and very self-serving move on MS' part. Despite the market shift, Blu-ray still has the upper hand, and will likely maintain a market share lead, but they no longer have a sense of inevitability. A lot of things have yet to play out, and everything's setting up for a very interesting holiday season.

Well, on this board there are those that seperate the Blu-Ray/ Sony segments apart. Travel on over to some of the more gamer oriented sites and they are all wetting themselves either from frustration (Sony) or joy (MS). Like it or not, PS3/Sony has tied themselves together pretty tight with the whole game/HD Blu-Ray movie player theme. So naturally the (Sony) Blu-Ray crowd is none to happy to have gotten the news.
The sense of inevitablity that Sony has had for years is no longer around. That was the point I was making.

And yes, this holiday is going to be brutal. I predict at least one more price cut from both Sony, and MS if things dont pick up. Considering that Sony's 'Price Cut' is simply inventory reduction (after the 60 gig units are out, 80 gig are still $599, and no more 20 gig), they may have to reduce prices still.

[Woochifer]

But an HD-DVD player cost less than a BR player. I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but my first impression was that this would make the bigger difference.

I think that Blu-ray could afford to sit on a price premium because of their superior studio support. But, with Paramount dropping Blu-ray, the justification for Blu-ray players costing upwards of ~$200 more than HD-DVD players has waned considerably.

Of course, one potential reason why HD-DVD players have been so cheap is because Toshiba reportedly was taking a loss on each player sold in order to maintain market share. With the studio support now less of a disadvantage to HD-DVD, will Toshiba continue to drive hardware prices down as loss leaders? Or will they stay at the current price points for the time being and wait for the Blu-ray price drops to catch up? Blu-ray player prices were already projected to drop down to around $300 by the end of the year (current list prices are around $500), and Paramount's action very well could force the price drops to accelerate.

[Groundbeef]

Again with this? This logic only works if you assume everyone has suitable internet connections already. I don't and will need to spend more than I am right now as a result. For me, this added expense increase is 100% attributable to the resource demands downloading movies will impose. Not other internet functions. The first $20 or whatever (the level of service I have now) covers the other internet usuage. My decision to download movies will necessitate an added expense.

On the DL'ing subject...I wouldn't be surprised if the convenience aspect wins out over the quality aspect though. I could see both BluRay and HD-DVD dragging this on a long time while Microsoft gets more people used to the idea of downloading instead of buying tangible disks...enough so that people just give up on BluRay or HD-DVD altogether.

I'm just waiting for Apple to dive into this business too...iFlicks or somethings...(maybe they have it up and running already?).

Ok, I will agree that if you need to upgrade your connection then perhaps you should consider the cost. However, I would venture to guess that after upgrade you would be willing to downgrade service if you were unhappy with the movies you d/l. After all, why have anything but dial-up if you are never going to get movies? The point is, perhaps you will need to upgrade. But after that, you are still going to use the internet for other things.

And Apple is getting into the IPTV business as well. They have it paired to their Itunes network, and frankly its getting its ass handed to it by MS. The 360 is much more user friendly, and intuitive to use. It doesn't require any special adapters other than what a user needs to set it up to play games. Once you are set up to game, your set up to d/l movies, TV shows, music videos and the like. With the Apple system, it is going to sit on your TV until you are specifically ready to utilize the service. And at $299 excluding cables you might as well spend the $50 extra and get a gaming machine to boot.

Currently MS is the nations largest provider of downloadable HD content, and it is being added to constantly. Companies are pretty confident of the security, and the abiltiy to lock content after a time period as well. Unless you are an Uberhacker, I don't think there is anyway to strip the content off the HD and use it later.

[Groundbeef]

This would be my first dip into the whole gaming thing. I know nothing about who has the best games, other than hearing that Wii is top of that class. But I do know what I like. Who has the better racing games of the two?

I'm sorry, but the Wii is crap. Its strictly SD, with no DVD support. The graphics are dated, and with the lowest price of the 360 at $279, the $249 Wii is no bargin.

What kind of racing games do you like? Arcade or realistic? Forza 2 is really hot for the 360, as well as Colin McRea (DIRt). I have Dirt, and it's pretty cool. The first time I went off the track, and my windshield exploded all over my co-pilot I about crapped my pants. This was after I buried my front end in a tree at about 60 mph on dirt.

The buggy races are cool, but online is time trials, and kinda sucks actually.

Project Gotham Racing is also a pretty good game, but I haven't played it. Stay away from the Need for Speed series unless your strictly arcade.

Forza, and Dirt can get technical if you are a gearhead, and like to play with suspensions, gear ratios, and other details. I just use stock ratios, but you can really spend some time if you are into it.

[GMichael]

I think that Blu-ray could afford to sit on a price premium because of their superior studio support. But, with Paramount dropping Blu-ray, the justification for Blu-ray players costing upwards of ~$200 more than HD-DVD players has waned considerably.

Of course, one potential reason why HD-DVD players have been so cheap is because Toshiba reportedly was taking a loss on each player sold in order to maintain market share. With the studio support now less of a disadvantage to HD-DVD, will Toshiba continue to drive hardware prices down as loss leaders? Or will they stay at the current price points for the time being and wait for the Blu-ray price drops to catch up? Blu-ray player prices were already projected to drop down to around $300 by the end of the year (current list prices are around $500), and Paramount's action very well could force the price drops to accelerate.

I have two HT rooms with projectors. I was trying to hedge my bets by putting one gamer in the living room (with an HD player of one kind) and then a stand alone player (of the other format) in the bedroom. Picking out which room gets what format is what's on my table.
Is it better to go with a PS3 in the living room and HD-DVD in the bedroom?
Or is an Xbox with HD-DVD add on in the living room, and a stand alone BR in the bedroom a better way to go?
I was leaning to choice number one because it seems that this combination costs a little less.
Games and ease of use should be determining factors but I don't know which games are "better" or which units are easier to operate.
A plus for choice number two would be that if BR wins out in the end, I may be able to add another BR to the Xbox to replace the HD-DVD add on unit.

Maybe a couple more months will bring the picture into focus better. But, it could become as clear as mudd, as you can see from current events.

[PeruvianSkies]

Wow, this thread is so...so....so.....


EPIC!

[Woochifer]

Well, on this board there are those that seperate the Blu-Ray/ Sony segments apart. Travel on over to some of the more gamer oriented sites and they are all wetting themselves either from frustration (Sony) or joy (MS). Like it or not, PS3/Sony has tied themselves together pretty tight with the whole game/HD Blu-Ray movie player theme. So naturally the (Sony) Blu-Ray crowd is none to happy to have gotten the news.
The sense of inevitablity that Sony has had for years is no longer around. That was the point I was making.

It's not just the "Blu-ray crowd" that's frustrated. As kex pointed out, it's also consumers (like myself) who've been waiting for the dust to settle so that we can put our money on one format and get on with things. All that was left for that to happen was Universal going neutral. But, this decision by Paramount puts the wet blanket on a lot of potential purchases.

From the beginning, I've said that I did not care which format won so long as one format did win, and win decisively, and win quickly. The longer that any format war drags on, the greater the possibility that we wind up stuck with choosing between lower resolution DVDs and HD downloads that are compromised in other ways (time/play restrictions, 720p, low res audio, etc.). And the possibility of both formats failing increases the longer that the format war continues to drag down the market.


And yes, this holiday is going to be brutal. I predict at least one more price cut from both Sony, and MS if things dont pick up. Considering that Sony's 'Price Cut' is simply inventory reduction (after the 60 gig units are out, 80 gig are still $599, and no more 20 gig), they may have to reduce prices still.

I doubt that the PS3 prices will tumble below $400, but I can easily see the Blu-ray player prices going below $300 (some analysts have already projected this). As I pointed out to GM, the player prices could wind up equalizing somewhat because this Paramount deal has bought HD-DVD some extra time, and Toshiba no longer has the desperate incentive to slash hardware prices below cost to prop up their market share. In the meantime, Blu-ray player makers now have extra incentive to reduce hardware prices. Blu-ray already had things on tap for the holiday season to try and deliver a knockout punch on HD-DVD. Obviously, the knockout won't happen, but the Blu-ray Association is reportedly going to augment their holiday marketing campaign. Just yesterday, Fox responded by announcing a large release slate through the end of the year (after not announcing any new Blu-ray titles since March), and Disney is reportedly teaming up with Panasonic to launch their widely-anticipated Platinum series Blu-ray titles.

[PeruvianSkies]

It looks like both sides still have lots of tricks up their sleeves and this could get ugly before it ends, if it ends. Maybe pixelthis will be a casualty of this war.

[GMichael]

I'm sorry, but the Wii is crap. Its strictly SD, with no DVD support. The graphics are dated, and with the lowest price of the 360 at $279, the $249 Wii is no bargin.

I only know that they sell more. But I have seen people say that although they are SD, that they have the "best" games that have the "most" fun. Don't worry, HD is a priority for me. Wii is out of the running no matter what the numbers say.


What kind of racing games do you like? Arcade or realistic? Forza 2 is really hot for the 360, as well as Colin McRea (DIRt). I have Dirt, and it's pretty cool. The first time I went off the track, and my windshield exploded all over my co-pilot I about crapped my pants. This was after I buried my front end in a tree at about 60 mph on dirt.

The buggy races are cool, but online is time trials, and kinda sucks actually.

Project Gotham Racing is also a pretty good game, but I haven't played it. Stay away from the Need for Speed series unless your strictly arcade.

Forza, and Dirt can get technical if you are a gearhead, and like to play with suspensions, gear ratios, and other details. I just use stock ratios, but you can really spend some time if you are into it.

I like them to be as realistic as possible. If I had my way, they'd have flight simulators for me to sit in so I could feel every bump. I'd like to be able to have the car skid around a right hand turn so much that I'd have to look left to see where I'm going. I'd like to smell the fuel and the burnt oil. They can keep the dust though.
Sounds like there is no shortage of driving games to choose from. Something that reacts as close to the real thing as possible would be great. I might enjoy the picking out of gearhead equipment, but the real joy is in the driving fast as h.ll without getting a ticket.

[Rich-n-Texas]

GM, the most realistic games in my opinion are PC games. I was never a fan of XBOX, PS and whathaveyou because I just think they've got too much of a juvenile look and feel. I don't know if there's a NASCAR game for consoles, but the PC version is spectacular. I've just about finished putting a new PC together; maybe I'll start an Off Topic thread with it's specs, and I can't wait to get back into gaming. While I realize these consoles may/will have dual functionality, I just don't find anything mind-blowing about them. JMO though.

[Groundbeef]

I like them to be as realistic as possible. If I had my way, they'd have flight simulators for me to sit in so I could feel every bump. I'd like to be able to have the car skid around a right hand turn so much that I'd have to look left to see where I'm going. I'd like to smell the fuel and the burnt oil. They can keep the dust though.
Sounds like there is no shortage of driving games to choose from. Something that reacts as close to the real thing as possible would be great. I might enjoy the picking out of gearhead equipment, but the real joy is in the driving fast as h.ll without getting a ticket.

Well if money is no object get your ear on the phone and dial this outfit out. You really cant get more realistic without the car than this for your 360!!

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/costs-more-than-actually-racing/vrx-makes-the-ultimate-xbox-360-driving-setup-a-reality-269325.php

Or perhaps this setup would better fit your budget:

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/someone-has-a-nice-job/the-ultimate-xbox-360-racing-setup-263810.php

You may want to see if some video stores in your area rent machines (PS3, 360) and try them out for a week.

Also, if you like realistic the PS3 flagship racing game Gran Tourismo is long on pretty, short on realistic. Apparently they cant show damage modeling on the cars, (something to do with mfgs of the car not wanting damage...I'm not making this up). So if you hit a wall at 175mph, you just bounce.

The 360 doesn't have the same damage constraints as the PS3 for some reason. I find it a bit more realistic in that fashion.

Forza 2...hit a wall at 175, you'll be ejected as your car splinters around you. Same with DIRt. Check out the video here:

http://xboxmovies.teamxbox.com/xbox-360/4773/Gameplay-Trailer-2/

Its impressive in the box, but if you d/l and watch full screen its even better. Then imagine with surround sound. If you are in car, you can hear the rocks hitting the undercarrige.

[Groundbeef]

GM, the most realistic games in my opinion are PC games. I was never a fan of XBOX, PS and whathaveyou because I just think they've got too much of a juvenile look and feel. I don't know if there's a NASCAR game for consoles, but the PC version is spectacular. I've just about finished putting a new PC together; maybe I'll start an Off Topic thread with it's specs, and I can't wait to get back into gaming. While I realize these consoles may/will have dual functionality, I just don't find anything mind-blowing about them. JMO though.

2 years ago I would have agreed with you. But you really ought to check out the new console racers. Some are pretty arcade like with limited damage, and wonky physics. However, there are several now on the market that have very good damage modeling, and the physics are as good as a PC. Plus with the MS wheel, you get force feedback, and shifting capabilities via paddles on the wheel. Check out my above post for some UBER racing setups, and you will be suprised.

The capabilites of the consoles now would require a multi thousand PC to equal the graphics output for a fraction of the cost.

I don't think the NASCAR is good for the console though. EA has pretty much ruined the feel. Papyrus was and will be the best even though they haven't made a game in years. It's still pretty much the gold standard for NASCAR

[Mr Peabody]

The MS deal is only for 18 months, do you all think this being temporary, possibily, makes any difference?

I for one have not downloaded music and I won't DL movies either, it's a royal pain in the butt.

I wonder if Onkyo's new HD-DVD player will still be out at the price of $899.00 and in light of current events, I wonder if Denon's BR players will still hit at $1 & 2k.

[Woochifer]

The MS deal is only for 18 months, do you all think this being temporary, possibily, makes any difference?

I for one have not downloaded music and I won't DL movies either, it's a royal pain in the butt.

Supposedly, there are a lot of exemptions and loopholes that Paramount can use if they choose to do so, and this agreement specifically exempts Steven Spielberg (who is on record as a Blu-ray supporter, and has prohibited Universal from releasing any of his movies on HD-DVD only), so titles like Saving Private Ryan and War of the Worlds might still come out on Blu-ray.

As for the difference that 18 months makes, I think a lot in this market can change in 18 months and 18 months is definitely long enough for HD-DVD to force Blu-ray into a dual format compromise (or for Blu-ray to maintain its market lead). Right now, Warner's holding a lot of the cards, and they've been trying to steer the market towards dual format support. The current situation gives them a lot of leverage particularly with the Blu-ray Association, because if they drop Blu-ray, they would basically force the market into an impasse.

This Paramount deal basically ensures that HD-DVD will survive another 18 months, but what happens thereafter is anyone's guess. I think that without Paramount going HD-DVD exclusive, that format would have been a goner inside of 18 months.

I used to think that HD downloads were the wave of the future, but if the tight time and use restrictions on Xbox Live HD downloads are typical of how these HD downloading services will work, then it will have minimal impact, except with rentals and PPV. Just think of all the pissed off parents who'd have to pay yet another fee when their kids want to watch Finding Nemo for the 30th time! Downloads won't compete in the same space as disc media unless they have no time and viewing limits.

But, I gotta disagree that downloading will be a pain. Except for the downloading time, it's not much different than using a DVR, and once you get a set-top box configured for your internet connection, it should actually be simpler than using a PC application. The only drawback is that with most household broadband speeds, it's far from "on demand" and in a society of instant gratification, waiting one to four hours for a file to download before being able to watch a movie might be enough to keep HD downloading from taking over the market. And even then, users are still constricted by their drive space.


I wonder if Onkyo's new HD-DVD player will still be out at the price of $899.00 and in light of current events, I wonder if Denon's BR players will still hit at $1 & 2k.

Considering that Toshiba's still selling an $800 HD-DVD player model, Onkyo's player would not be too far out of line pricewise if it has some compelling features or performance improvements. It would not surprise me if Denon sticks with that price structure for their Blu-ray players, considering that models from the mass market models from the likes of Sony and Philips are only now hitting the $500 list price. How long Denon will keep those players at that price I think is the real question. Five years ago, Denon only had one DVD player model that sold for less than $800, and even now, their two flagship models still sell for more than $1,000. So, there is room in the market for higher end Blu-ray players (that is the market can grow fast enough to support a wider variety of models and price points).

[Robert-The-Rambler]

So what are the 4 rooms that you have it set up in and do you have them all connected to TV's or just the one?

I have a refurbished D2(same as A2) model downstairs in the "main" high wattage setup I talked about previously that is connected to my 65" 1080i Hitachi CRT RPTV. In my living room I am running my original A1 with a 52" CRT RPTV from GE and I'm using 5.1 analog outputs.. Currently in my bedroom I have a refurbished A1 running in a 5.1 setup via analog outputs connect to a 50" RCA Scenium DLP 720p TV.

My 4th HD-DVD player I haven't set up yet. It is the A20 and I plan on using it with my Sanyo PLV-Z5 LCD projector also downstairs with all the other gear. Yes it is overkill but it wil be a lot of fun.

BTW, 2 of the players, the refurbished ones, were only about $200 at Tigerdirect.com.

[pixelthis]

Personally I am elated at the news.

While I am just as disatisfied as most that there is a format war in the first place, with HD DVD players coming down in price all of the time, I think this creates a very *good* market for the consumer.

This announcement is gargantuan, and changes the dynamic entirely. I will not predict an HD DVD win, but I would say this announcement actually now gives HD DVD the upper hand in "the war" with an eventual dual-format player result highly likely. I believe this due to the large price differential between the cost of the two formats' respective players, coupled with the recent seeming destruction of the lame combo HD DVD/DVD discs that put HD DVD at a price disadvantage on the software side. With these two developments in hand, HD DVD is well poised to start attracting the average joe at the store. I also believe retailers will have to start to create more shelf space for HD DVD titles and players... It is happy days in the HD DVD camp indeed!

All of the above said, I too was shocked at Paramount's decision. Apart from the already speculated financial arrangement, I too see no reason why they would do this... I guess HD DVD put up some cash, but it may have been the best investment they could have made for long-term survival.

So PixelThis... Still making predictions of HD DVD's immenent demise? :-) Like I have said previously, I believe both formats can survive long-term, and there will be no "winner" (except the consumer). It is still too early to make predictions with any real certanty.

---Dave

Be great if they could, but I doubt it.
Let me say that when I refer to "downloading" I am primarily reffering to video on demand, or VOD, movies over the net still have a ways to go.
Whenever there is a "win" in a battle its just that, a win in a battle, not the WAR.
And blu-ray still outsells HDDVD by a wide margin, and most are still favoring blu-ray.
And if Microsoft is behind this then they are effectively punching themselves in the face,
since Blu-ray is a much better medium for computers (more storage space)
Personally I perfer Blu-ray, technically its much better, however I also favored
beta-max, but predicted its demise, it was clear early on they wouldnt beat VHS.
One really has nothing to do with the other.
But I will not support either one just yet, in the area where it counts... financially.
This is because Microsoft came out with a great HD format, I even have a few movies
on it, however it committed the cardinal sin, you didn't need a new player for it, just a
decent computer. Dedicated players would have been cheap. But nobodsy went for it because they want to sell players, and HT types want a new "toy".
So when one of these crashes and burns and dies a stinking death I will then (maybe)
jump on board and get a player, and begin the much more expensive task of upgrading my collection (the BIRDS, blues brothers, chasing amy, body heat, indiana jones collection, cinema paradiso, halloween)
Maybe by then these classics, as well as a few others will be out in that format

[Rich-n-Texas]

And why exactly (besides exaggeration) do you have 4 HD-DVD players???
I wouldn't put it past him PS. Remember this:
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=22029

[GMichael]

Well if money is no object get your ear on the phone and dial this outfit out. You really cant get more realistic without the car than this for your 360!!

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/costs-more-than-actually-racing/vrx-makes-the-ultimate-xbox-360-driving-setup-a-reality-269325.php

Or perhaps this setup would better fit your budget:

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/someone-has-a-nice-job/the-ultimate-xbox-360-racing-setup-263810.php

You may want to see if some video stores in your area rent machines (PS3, 360) and try them out for a week.

Also, if you like realistic the PS3 flagship racing game Gran Tourismo is long on pretty, short on realistic. Apparently they cant show damage modeling on the cars, (something to do with mfgs of the car not wanting damage...I'm not making this up). So if you hit a wall at 175mph, you just bounce.

The 360 doesn't have the same damage constraints as the PS3 for some reason. I find it a bit more realistic in that fashion.

Forza 2...hit a wall at 175, you'll be ejected as your car splinters around you. Same with DIRt. Check out the video here:

http://xboxmovies.teamxbox.com/xbox-360/4773/Gameplay-Trailer-2/

Its impressive in the box, but if you d/l and watch full screen its even better. Then imagine with surround sound. If you are in car, you can hear the rocks hitting the undercarrige.

Unfortunately, money is an object. Thanks for the cool links though.

[Feanor]

Wake me up when it's over :sleep: Since I'm working with a 27" CRT I find it hard to care (-- meanwhile my wife buys standard DVDs: what's the premium for HD anyway?)

I bought cassette vs. 8-track in circa 1970: won on that one. Oh yeah, I bought Beta back in '83: lost on that one. I'm holding off.

[Groundbeef]

Unfortunately, money is an object. Thanks for the cool links though.

Well, if money is an object, head over here for a more modest injection of realism into your games:

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x/xbox360wirelessracingwheel/

However, there are several other websites that sell it for a bit less. I think the one in BB actually comes with a free game...so thats a bonus. The Force Feedback is a nice feature, and lets you "feel" the rumble of the road. As a bonus, with an adapter it will work with any PC driving games you have as well.

'Wireless' is a bit misleading as well. The controller is 'wireless' from the console, but it does require an outlet to power the rumble and such.

BTW did you happen to check out the video?

[GMichael]

Well, if money is an object, head over here for a more modest injection of realism into your games:

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x/xbox360wirelessracingwheel/

However, there are several other websites that sell it for a bit less. I think the one in BB actually comes with a free game...so thats a bonus. The Force Feedback is a nice feature, and lets you "feel" the rumble of the road. As a bonus, with an adapter it will work with any PC driving games you have as well.

'Wireless' is a bit misleading as well. The controller is 'wireless' from the console, but it does require an outlet to power the rumble and such.

BTW did you happen to check out the video?

Thanks, I'll poke around to see what's available.

No, can't view videos at work. No downloads aloud. I'll check it out at home later, if wifey gives up the computer for a minute.

[PeruvianSkies]

I wouldn't put it past him PS. Remember this:
http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=22029


How could I forget the 8X8 room with 4,000 watts of sheer noise.

[Rich-n-Texas]

I check back in on that thread every once-in-a-while when I'm feeling like my cable routing is lacking...

[PeruvianSkies]

I check back in on that thread every once-in-a-while when I'm feeling like my cable routing is lacking...

I shall now look back at this thread when I need a great laugh!

[Mr Peabody]

The Blu-ray supporters are out putting a spin on things. There is a new Blu-ray disc factory open in Spokane, WA. The company says HD-DVD is desperate.

One source says Paramount only released 33 titles on Blu-ray anyway, compared to MGM's 38 titles in 6 months with 29 more slated to come out. They explain Universal, the one time sole HD-DVD studio, bombed at the box office this summer so they didn't have anything to offer going into the 4th quarter, so the HD-DVD promo group paid the $150M for exclusive rights to Transformers and Shrek 3 and any potential blockbusters in the next 18 months. So let's see if these titles can do what previous HD-DVD releases couldn't, which is to sell HD-DVD players.

[PeruvianSkies]

The Blu-ray supporters are out putting a spin on things. There is a new Blu-ray disc factory open in Spokane, WA. The company says HD-DVD is desperate.

One source says Paramount only released 33 titles on Blu-ray anyway, compared to MGM's 38 titles in 6 months with 29 more slated to come out. They explain Universal, the one time sole HD-DVD studio, bombed at the box office this summer so they didn't have anything to offer going into the 4th quarter, so the HD-DVD promo group paid the $150M for exclusive rights to Transformers and Shrek 3 and any potential blockbusters in the next 18 months. So let's see if these titles can do what previous HD-DVD releases couldn't, which is to sell HD-DVD players.

On one hand I appreciate Blu-ray and HD-DVD going all out and trying to win this war, but at the same time I hope that they are not relying on gimmicks to do so and that they are both working to deliver a truly superior format to the other, which if they both promise that they initially said, I think Blu-ray has the upper advantage, but are the spending their money right now doing research and development or simply trying to out market the other? One has to wonder.

[musicman1999]

On one hand I appreciate Blu-ray and HD-DVD going all out and trying to win this war, but at the same time I hope that they are not relying on gimmicks to do so and that they are both working to deliver a truly superior format to the other, which if they both promise that they initially said, I think Blu-ray has the upper advantage, but are the spending their money right now doing research and development or simply trying to out market the other? One has to wonder.

It is sadly all about marketing.It does not matter if a product is good or not as long as people believe that it is.Example,Monster Cable,a poor quality product that people are willing to overpay for because they believe they are good quality.

bill

[drseid]

The Blu-ray supporters are out putting a spin on things. There is a new Blu-ray disc factory open in Spokane, WA. The company says HD-DVD is desperate.

One source says Paramount only released 33 titles on Blu-ray anyway, compared to MGM's 38 titles in 6 months with 29 more slated to come out. They explain Universal, the one time sole HD-DVD studio, bombed at the box office this summer so they didn't have anything to offer going into the 4th quarter, so the HD-DVD promo group paid the $150M for exclusive rights to Transformers and Shrek 3 and any potential blockbusters in the next 18 months. So let's see if these titles can do what previous HD-DVD releases couldn't, which is to sell HD-DVD players.

The latest shoe to drop is the Warner top exec who was in charge of the dual-format BD/HD DVD discs (I think they are calling it Total HD) just resigned. Some are now saying that this could be a signal that Warner is going to go exclusive to one format or the other... I personally have no idea if there is any validity to this, but if they *did* go exclusive, it would make sense that they would align themselves with HD DVD as they have in the past (and still favor to some extent). If this were to occur, then we really have a mess to sort out in this "war."... The soap opera continues...

---Dave

[Rich-n-Texas]

2 years ago I would have agreed with you. But you really ought to check out the new console racers. Some are pretty arcade like with limited damage, and wonky physics. However, there are several now on the market that have very good damage modeling, and the physics are as good as a PC. Plus with the MS wheel, you get force feedback, and shifting capabilities via paddles on the wheel. Check out my above post for some UBER racing setups, and you will be suprised.

The capabilites of the consoles now would require a multi thousand PC to equal the graphics output for a fraction of the cost.

I don't think the NASCAR is good for the console though. EA has pretty much ruined the feel. Papyrus was and will be the best even though they haven't made a game in years. It's still pretty much the gold standard for NASCAR
I just finished putting together a gaming rig for a bit over $1K, and played the Bioshock demo last night. Sent chills up my spine with the incredible detail. What Doom 3 started this game has exploited to the max. I don't know about multi-thousand $$$ to get equal eye-candy but if you're talking about console games in hi def well... maybe maybe not. My nVidia graphics card and Acer widescreen LCD are HDCP compliant and I'm running at 1680 x 1050 native resolution. Total cost for those two was < $400.

You can play NASCAR with a force-feedback wheel and peddal controller too on a PC, and no, I didn't know EA took the game over (I lost interest in NASCAR after Dale died).

Anyway, I don't want to start a PC/Console debate, but yeah, I haven't sat in front of an XBOX or PS in about two years, so...

[Mr Peabody]

I did see that was the rumor that Nickerson was stepping down, has it been confirmed? He was an outspoken proponent for HD-DVD. The dual format that WB proposed was delayed and now this. If WB decides to only support one format that would definitely tip the scales which ever way they go. If it's HD-DVD I think the war will just rage on without a decisive winner and the HD formats may become just a nitch. Because I think Sony, Fox & Disney by themselves could support BR. Warner with Paramount & Universal should certainly be able to support HD-DVD. Will anyone join Toshiba and Onkyo with new HD-DVD hardware...... If Warner goes Blu-ray it could put HD--DVD back on death roll.

[Mr Peabody]

Isn't 300 WB? Of course, selling more titles didn't mean anything to Paramount's decision.

[Woochifer]

On one hand I appreciate Blu-ray and HD-DVD going all out and trying to win this war, but at the same time I hope that they are not relying on gimmicks to do so and that they are both working to deliver a truly superior format to the other, which if they both promise that they initially said, I think Blu-ray has the upper advantage, but are the spending their money right now doing research and development or simply trying to out market the other? One has to wonder.

I think it's almost all about marketing at this point. Any significant improvements to either format will likely create backwards compatibility issues (e.g., the eight-layer 200 GB Blu-ray disc format that TDK recently demonstrated and Toshiba's three-layer 45 GB HD-DVD disc likely won't play on existing units), and even Blu-ray's long-planned BD-Java implementation (which all Blu-ray players sold after October must include) will result in some added features not working on current players. Given that both formats use the MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 video codecs and the same processing chips are used in players for both formats, it's no longer about R&D but more about better execution and incremental improvements. And aside from maybe making better use of Blu-ray's larger disc capacity, I don't see either format with an advantage in that regard.

Blu-ray still has the upper hand, but they are no longer positioned to deliver a knockout blow. They very well might still win the format war, but the additional time required to beat out HD-DVD might be enough to relegate both formats to niche status.


The latest shoe to drop is the Warner top exec who was in charge of the dual-format BD/HD DVD discs (I think they are calling it Total HD) just resigned. Some are now saying that this could be a signal that Warner is going to go exclusive to one format or the other... I personally have no idea if there is any validity to this, but if they *did* go exclusive, it would make sense that they would align themselves with HD DVD as they have in the past (and still favor to some extent). If this were to occur, then we really have a mess to sort out in this "war."... The soap opera continues...

And earlier, one of Universal's biggest HD-DVD proponents got forced out as well, yet Universal's still HD-DVD exclusive. Steve Nickerson of Warner was supposedly a huge HD-DVD backer, but also one of the people who spearheaded the TotalHD disc format. No telling how to read this latest move, but I would say that it potentially puts Warner closer to the HD-DVD camp, since Nickerson was pushing more for a dual format strategy.

I don't see Warner going Blu-ray exclusive unless everyone else does. They still have patents on the DVD (and by extension HD-DVD) and the TotalHD formats, so ironically they have better financial incentive than anyone to go more actively support HD-DVD. They originally planned to have TotalHD on the market by now, but pushed it back to early next year (presumably to see if HD-DVD makes it through the holiday season with some market share intact). From a purely financial point of view, Warner stands to make a lot if the other studios adopt the TotalHD hybrid format.

But, like Paramount and Dreamworks, they could also be enticed by another bribe from Microsoft, since the revenues they potentially receive from Blu-ray disc sales in the next 18 months will likely pale in comparison to what Microsoft's deep pockets can provide. Supposedly, the $150 million that Microsoft paid Paramount and Dreamworks is worth more than the sales to date from all HD optical discs combined.

Just for perspective, 300 just became the biggest selling HD disc in either format, with a combined 250,000 in sales the first week (prior to that, The Departed was the best selling HD disc, with sales of less than 150,000 units). With a wholesale unit cost of ~$20 (that's purely my own assumption), that works out to a grand total of $5 million in revenue for best selling HD disc. Until the market for HD discs grows to a serious share of the overall home video market, studios will remain easily swayed to trade the long-term need to grow the HD disc market for short-term bucks that likely outweigh the HD disc revenues in the meantime.

[PeruvianSkies]

I am beginning to get tired of the whole format debacle. For one, I am trying to wait patiently and see what develops, but it looks like both sides are just ousting one another here and there and no one is really coming forth the victor. It's really a marketing battle at this point and there seems to be little end in sight at this point. More importantly it's not really generating a whole lot of confidence either because if one format does win, than a lot of people from the losing side are going to be ticked off for supporting the loser, wasting money, etc etc. If (and I do mean a big IF) there is some sort of compromise hybrid format that emerges it will take forever for that to happen and we will go through years of waiting while upgrades take place in both hardware and software, also meaning that some people will be left in the dust with certain limitations of their current gear. Lastly, there is just too much confusion over the various sound formats and sound compatibility with HDMI and Dolby TrueHD, as well as DTS plus receivers that are supporting those as well.

It would be different if the BETTER format emerged from this and some standards were issued in terms of compatibility, but at this point it's just a slugfest between both sides in marketing terms and we have 3 groups of people. First, are the tech people who want the latest and greatest and they are adopting these formats with caution, but at least they are making the moves to help get the ball rolling. Then there are the middle ground people who are waiting for things to get ironed out. Lastly we have the people who know nothing about the formats and are unaware of the progress or the differences between these formats.

Exposure-wise both formats have made a dent in the industry and I think at this point MOST consumers are at least aware of the words Blu-ray and HD-DVD. In my experience I have heard more people using the phrase "BLU-RAY" when it comes to the HD formats, while very little say HD-DVD, although I have heard a few people say that they thought that Blu-ray WAS the official name for High Definition DVD's, essentially they meant that HD-DVD was the technical term and Blu-ray was the street name.

I am leaning more towards Blu-ray as I have said in the past....I think the name and color alone will help push this format along. More people are attracted to blue than red and the name is easier to say and identify. I know it sounds backwards, but this is marketing 101, you need a product that sells with a catchy name and solid branding. Blu-ray has that nailed down.

[pixelthis]

It is sadly all about marketing.It does not matter if a product is good or not as long as people believe that it is.Example,Monster Cable,a poor quality product that people are willing to overpay for because they believe they are good quality.

bill
I have been trying to explain the importance of marketing on this forum for awhile.
But monster, while marketed quite well, is an example of a quality product at a fair price.
You can spend thousands on your cables if you want, but the roughly one grand I spent on my ENTIRE set of monsters (maybe a little more) will always sound competitive.
When you buy monsters you get hit on both sides, one side which (mistakenly)
think that a good cable is a matter of price, and the other side, who never saw
lampcord from home depot they didn't like.
Monsters are the right guage, gold plated, easy to cut to size, and they wont break the bank.
This is a contentious issue in this hobby, but I will side with the thousands of
blind tests in which no one could tell the difference in cables.
Once you cover the basics thats it.
As for this "format war", a lot of HT fans cant see the forest for the trees,
are your memories so short?
Do you know how many record stores have shut down in the last few years?
Just five years ago CRT was still a major player, now its all but extinct,
things are moving fast.
And in a few years most will get their rentals from cable or sat, the only "buyers"
of movies will buy from whatever format wins this stupid war, and it will be a niche format
at that.
Look at the dvdaudio/sacd feud, sure most are still around but sacd has emerged
as the "leader" if you can call it that, because of its apeal to audiophiles.
Pretty much the same thing will happen in this "war"
Blu ray appeals to the quality crowd, and it will "win", if you want to call it that:1:

[PeruvianSkies]

I have been trying to explain the importance of marketing on this forum for awhile.
But monster, while marketed quite well, is an example of a quality product at a fair price.
You can spend thousands on your cables if you want, but the roughly one grand I spent on my ENTIRE set of monsters (maybe a little more) will always sound competitive.
When you buy monsters you get hit on both sides, one side which (mistakenly)
think that a good cable is a matter of price, and the other side, who never saw
lampcord from home depot they didn't like.
Monsters are the right guage, gold plated, easy to cut to size, and they wont break the bank.
This is a contentious issue in this hobby, but I will side with the thousands of
blind tests in which no one could tell the difference in cables.
Once you cover the basics thats it.
As for this "format war", a lot of HT fans cant see the forest for the trees,
are your memories so short?
Do you know how many record stores have shut down in the last few years?
Just five years ago CRT was still a major player, now its all but extinct,
things are moving fast.
And in a few years most will get their rentals from cable or sat, the only "buyers"
of movies will buy from whatever format wins this stupid war, and it will be a niche format
at that.
Look at the dvdaudio/sacd feud, sure most are still around but sacd has emerged
as the "leader" if you can call it that, because of its apeal to audiophiles.
Pretty much the same thing will happen in this "war"
Blu ray appeals to the quality crowd, and it will "win", if you want to call it that:1:

Ahhhh, I have missed these mindless ramblings...have you been on vacation?

[PeruvianSkies]

I
As for this "format war", a lot of HT fans cant see the forest for the trees,
are your memories so short?
:


Thanks for regurgitating a phrase that I used on YOU not too long ago...remember this...


Originally Posted by pixelthis

WRONG, but I do agree with you that audio is important, even with dialog getting the right timber in the voices really adds to the experience.
And now let me settle this with a little experiment.

Think audio is near as important as video to humans?
Well, plug up your ears and walk around the house for awhile, how does that impair you?
NOW do the same with a blindfold on, you will quickly learn what the most important sense is to the average human.
Some old farts refuse to wear their hearing aids, but they ALL wear their glasses


MY RESPONSE:
Again, you can't see the forest through the trees. We are not talking about how important hearing and seeing is when walking around our house, we are talking about it's importance when watching (and hearing) a film. Also, how this relates to us in high-end video and high-end audio terms.

You tried to say that I am comparing apples and oranges...you aren't even comparing food, you're about as far off as apples and laundry detergent.

taken from this thread: http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=23678&highlight=forest

[pixelthis]

Thanks for regurgitating a phrase that I used on YOU not too long ago...remember this...


Originally Posted by pixelthis



MY RESPONSE:
Again, you can't see the forest through the trees. We are not talking about how important hearing and seeing is when walking around our house, we are talking about it's importance when watching (and hearing) a film. Also, how this relates to us in high-end video and high-end audio terms.

You tried to say that I am comparing apples and oranges...you aren't even comparing food, you're about as far off as apples and laundry detergent.

taken from this thread: http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=23678&highlight=forest

You ought to have your brain taken out so you can use for a paperweight or something,
because everytime you try to use it to think you get in trouble.
Human beings are so visualy oriented hearing isnt even close, and its not a question of whats "important", you CANT HELP IT.
Might as well ask a dolphin what is more important, swimming or playing ice hocky.
Its like those old discussions about which is more important, heart or brain.
True your brain cant live without a heart, but without a brain whats the point?
You say you spent ten k on your system, well, how much of that went into video?
And of your audio gear, how much would you enjoy listening to it if it looked
like an old polish washing machine?
I give up:incazzato:

[pixelthis]

come to think of it, to a lot of tube fans their gear DOES look like an old Polish
washing machine:(

[drseid]

Blu ray appeals to the quality crowd, and it will "win", if you want to call it that:1:

I guess it depends on what you define as "quality." Obviously we define it deferently. :-)

---Dave

[musicman1999]

I have been trying to explain the importance of marketing on this forum for awhile.
But monster, while marketed quite well, is an example of a quality product at a fair price.
You can spend thousands on your cables if you want, but the roughly one grand I spent on my ENTIRE set of monsters (maybe a little more) will always sound competitive.
When you buy monsters you get hit on both sides, one side which (mistakenly)
think that a good cable is a matter of price, and the other side, who never saw
lampcord from home depot they didn't like.
Monsters are the right guage, gold plated, easy to cut to size, and they wont break the bank.
This is a contentious issue in this hobby, but I will side with the thousands of
blind tests in which no one could tell the difference in cables.
Once you cover the basics thats it.
As for this "format war", a lot of HT fans cant see the forest for the trees,
are your memories so short?
Do you know how many record stores have shut down in the last few years?
Just five years ago CRT was still a major player, now its all but extinct,
things are moving fast.
And in a few years most will get their rentals from cable or sat, the only "buyers"
of movies will buy from whatever format wins this stupid war, and it will be a niche format
at that.
Look at the dvdaudio/sacd feud, sure most are still around but sacd has emerged
as the "leader" if you can call it that, because of its apeal to audiophiles.
Pretty much the same thing will happen in this "war"
Blu ray appeals to the quality crowd, and it will "win", if you want to call it that:1:

My statements about Monster cable were based on my own experience with cables tried in my own system and with my own ears.I have bought no name brand cables for 1/6 the price that performed better.

bill

[Mr Peabody]

Monster is all marketing, like Bose. Is it a bad product, not necessarily but, for the same money spent you can find better. Monster is every where, not because they are good, because, of the spiffs and profitability they offer.

I get the feeling that HD-DVD is about to get aggressive going into the Christmas buying season. First the Paramount counter punch and I heard a commercial for HD-DVD on the radio. It is good that when movies are advertised on TV that they say, "available #/# on DVD and Blu-ray". This is not a time for Blu-ray to do "rope a dope", After this Paramount, and if what I heard is the beginning of a new commercial assault, Blu-ray needs to get busy as well.

[pixelthis]

I guess it depends on what you define as "quality." Obviously we define it deferently. :-)

---Dave
I guess so.
HDDVD didn't do a thing for me, looked like bad broadcast HDTV, but BLU ray had obvious improvements, not to mention a higher amount of storage space, always handy.
And when you say "quality" what first pops into mind concerning video?
Sony or TOSHIBA?
Maybe for you toshiba, but you are in the minority.
Most audiophiles and videophiles have a rather myopic view of the world.
Our little hobby rides on a sea of industrial activity.
All of our stuff put together is just a niche market in the bigger picture.
Our stuff is made from lesser gear in order to save cost.
Blu ray has a lot if advantages over HDDVD, which uses less space.
Sell a lot of blue ray lasers and the price goes down.
Players (and burners) get cheaper and computer storage gets cheaper.
Blu ray is just more advanced technilogically, and everybody that matters is behind it.
And HDDVD is in retreat, this little "exclusive" deal has more holes in it than a piece of swiss. Just another stalling action so that Toshiba will lose the minimum amount of fingers and toes.
Of course quality doesnt always decide the issue, but in this case the news for HDDVD
is very bad on most fronts.
And in the end, both will take a seat to downloading.
SACD and DVDAUDIO were the biggest marketing snafus in history, trying to appeal
to "quality" when most were downloading cheap 128kbs MP3 off the the web, and the
few "quality " buyers hypnotized by their turntables.
If these two formats dont be carefull they will wind up in the same pot.
Most discs are for rental, these will collect dust while most download off of cable, sat, and the net:1:

[drseid]

I guess so.
HDDVD didn't do a thing for me, looked like bad broadcast HDTV, but BLU ray had obvious improvements, not to mention a higher amount of storage space, always handy.
And when you say "quality" what first pops into mind concerning video?
Sony or TOSHIBA?
Maybe for you toshiba, but you are in the minority.
Most audiophiles and videophiles have a rather myopic view of the world.
Our little hobby rides on a sea of industrial activity.
All of our stuff put together is just a niche market in the bigger picture.
Our stuff is made from lesser gear in order to save cost.
Blu ray has a lot if advantages over HDDVD, which uses less space.
Sell a lot of blue ray lasers and the price goes down.
Players (and burners) get cheaper and computer storage gets cheaper.
Blu ray is just more advanced technilogically, and everybody that matters is behind it.
And HDDVD is in retreat, this little "exclusive" deal has more holes in it than a piece of swiss. Just another stalling action so that Toshiba will lose the minimum amount of fingers and toes.
Of course quality doesnt always decide the issue, but in this case the news for HDDVD
is very bad on most fronts.
And in the end, both will take a seat to downloading.
SACD and DVDAUDIO were the biggest marketing snafus in history, trying to appeal
to "quality" when most were downloading cheap 128kbs MP3 off the the web, and the
few "quality " buyers hypnotized by their turntables.
If these two formats dont be carefull they will wind up in the same pot.
Most discs are for rental, these will collect dust while most download off of cable, sat, and the net:1:

I don't really have a preference for one brand over the other... I actually own equipment from both. I have had much better experience with Toshiba's longevity as I have stated in the past, but I happen to like Sony's TVs from a picture quality standpoint.

As for the HD DVD vs. Blu-ray argument... we will have to agree to disagree there, as neither of us is going to convince the other to change their position.

As for downloads, they may be the wave of the future... I have no idea, but if they do end up that way it will be a sad one for me, as I find them a very poor substitute for either Blu-ray or HD DVD. Lower quality picture and sound, and a long wait to get the movie downloaded -- even with broadband in most cases (not to mention you don't have the disc to watch later). As a collector, I like things a bit more tactile, so I will probably be the last to come on board any technology such as that.

---Dave

[PeruvianSkies]

I guess it depends on what you define as "quality." Obviously we define it deferently. :-)

---Dave

Which is why you are using Tyler Acoustics and not Klipsch.

[GMichael]

Which is why you are using Tyler Acoustics and not Klipsch.

BAM..

[drseid]

Which is why you are using Tyler Acoustics and not Klipsch.

You are too bad... ;-)

---Dave

[bobsticks]

Ouch. There's some passive-aggressive ownage.

[bobsticks]

As has been mentioned the opinions held by aficionados don't mean a hill o' beans in the battle for mainstream dominance. The fact that "Blu-Ray" has already found itself into the popular vernacular as meaning Hi Definition Discs may be telling. Maybe not.

I'm pretty happy with the 360's HD-DVD add on but I'm not firmly entrenched into any camp. Whatever will prove in the long run to give me better audio and video will get the bulk of my expenditures--actually good old fashioned two channel audio sources will probably...never mind.

I'm looking forward to the release of the new generation Denon machines. Will they have the same quality of DACs and video processing? That's the 64,000 dollar question, but 2k for a machine that will devour any disc you put into it including Hi-Def and Hi-Rez is pretty compelling.

[Mr Peabody]

I doubt that anything will take the place of a disc we can hold in our hand. I know several people who are into computers and none have mentioned downloading rentals. I don't even consider PPV any comp, my cable company can't even tell me if they are in 5.1 or if any HD PPV is available. Cable is pathetic. The old walk in stores have better selection and I'm currently renting cheaper than I can get a mystery movie from the cable company.

Toshiba's DLP's have gained them some respect. If Sony don't do something about quality control they are destined to lose their rep. No matter how good a picture is, no one wants to buy a problem.

[PeruvianSkies]

As has been mentioned the opinions held by aficionados don't mean a hill o' beans in the battle for mainstream dominance. The fact that "Blu-Ray" has already found itself into the popular vernacular as meaning Hi Definition Discs may be telling. Maybe not.

I'm pretty happy with the 360's HD-DVD add on but I'm not firmly entrenched into any camp. Whatever will prove in the long run to give me better audio and video will get the bulk of my expenditures--actually good old fashioned two channel audio sources will probably...never mind.

I'm looking forward to the release of the new generation Denon machines. Will they have the same quality of DACs and video processing? That's the 64,000 dollar question, but 2k for a machine that will devour any disc you put into it including Hi-Def and Hi-Rez is pretty compelling.

Great points!! I will also be interested in what Denon comes up with and that will most likely be my next player (a Denon that does all formats) and use that for all my video needs since the Parasound unit is now my CD/SACD-only transport.

[musicman1999]

Do you use your Parasound as a player or transport?
From what i hear this Denon,if it exists,does not play dvd-a or sacd.The lack of sacd would be a downside,also the cheap machine is a transport only,not a player.

bill

[PeruvianSkies]

Do you use your Parasound as a player or transport?
From what i hear this Denon,if it exists,does not play dvd-a or sacd.The lack of sacd would be a downside,also the cheap machine is a transport only,not a player.

bill

When I bought my Parasound unit back in the Spring I really wasn't in the market for one. I stumbled across a great deal that I couldn't refuse and in my mind I knew that the player could serve both audio and video needs. It's a superb video player...I mean it really makes regular DVD's look about as good as it gets. However, with my recent migration over to having 2 systems (HT and 2-channel) I am using the Parasound unit for CD playback and also SACD. My HT setup I use for TV, movies and occasional multi-channel music, but ideally i'd like to replace my Samsung DVD player with a high-end Denon once they start doing the HD formats...that could be quite some time. I will keep my Samsung though as it is modified to play all regions and also has a really good buffer for PAL/NTSC conversion, so since half of my movies are non-US region coded...i'll need it!

[pixelthis]

Which is why you are using Tyler Acoustics and not Klipsch.
I am currently using B&w 's, about six years old but better than a pair of overpriced
(and overrated) PSB:sleep:

[musicman1999]

When I bought my Parasound unit back in the Spring I really wasn't in the market for one. I stumbled across a great deal that I couldn't refuse and in my mind I knew that the player could serve both audio and video needs. It's a superb video player...I mean it really makes regular DVD's look about as good as it gets. However, with my recent migration over to having 2 systems (HT and 2-channel) I am using the Parasound unit for CD playback and also SACD. My HT setup I use for TV, movies and occasional multi-channel music, but ideally i'd like to replace my Samsung DVD player with a high-end Denon once they start doing the HD formats...that could be quite some time. I will keep my Samsung though as it is modified to play all regions and also has a really good buffer for PAL/NTSC conversion, so since half of my movies are non-US region coded...i'll need it!

Interesting,i have heard it's not a bad player.What i was getting at however is do you use digital or analog connection.

bill

[PeruvianSkies]

I am currently using B&w 's, about six years old but better than a pair of overpriced
(and overrated) PSB:sleep:

If you are using B&W than change your SIGNATURE to indicate that, otherwise don't blame me for the mistake on what you are currently using.

And just to prove that you hardly know anything about what you talk about, the comment about PSB's being overpriced is just hilarious. I have never heard anyone call these speakers 'overpriced' and if anything PSB has always been known for high-end quality as budget prices. Although you wouldn't know anything about that since apparently Canadian Speaker Manufacturers are only in existence to keep up with the wood industry demands. That was a good one! Where do you come up with your crack-head ideas? Maybe crack.

[PeruvianSkies]

Interesting,i have heard it's not a bad player.What i was getting at however is do you use digital or analog connection.

bill

Both. I have both analog and digital connected and I usually go back and forth a bit. My player has analog out and a 5.1 out, which I use the left and right outs and have them into my CD input on my receiver as well as the analog input (intended for SACD). I find myself liking certain things in analog over digital and vise-versa. Usually, and I don't know why this seems to be the case, but older recordings (actually older material I should say) sounds better to me via analog. For example I thought that the MoFi Gold CD of BOOKENDS sounded better and more organic in analog, but newer material tends to do well in digital.

[musicman1999]

Both. I have both analog and digital connected and I usually go back and forth a bit. My player has analog out and a 5.1 out, which I use the left and right outs and have them into my CD input on my receiver as well as the analog input (intended for SACD). I find myself liking certain things in analog over digital and vise-versa. Usually, and I don't know why this seems to be the case, but older recordings (actually older material I should say) sounds better to me via analog. For example I thought that the MoFi Gold CD of BOOKENDS sounded better and more organic in analog, but newer material tends to do well in digital.

That is a little strange,i would have thought that the Parasound would have been a fair bit better than the Pioneer reciever thats in your gear list.Maybe i don't give the Pioneer enough credit.

bill

[pixelthis]

If you are using B&W than change your SIGNATURE to indicate that, otherwise don't blame me for the mistake on what you are currently using.

And just to prove that you hardly know anything about what you talk about, the comment about PSB's being overpriced is just hilarious. I have never heard anyone call these speakers 'overpriced' and if anything PSB has always been known for high-end quality as budget prices. Although you wouldn't know anything about that since apparently Canadian Speaker Manufacturers are only in existence to keep up with the wood industry demands. That was a good one! Where do you come up with your crack-head ideas? Maybe crack.
I'm not blaming you for anything except for being obnoxious.
And there is no "Canadian speaker industry", a Canadian speaker CABINET industry maybe, as most subcontract out their drivers.
I have a friend who has a pair of axiom towers, they sound a lot like PSB.
You know where Milwalkee best beer comes from? Made by miller beer.
The Miller comes from the top of the vat, "best" comes from the bottom.
Same for Keystone, made by Coors.
Axioms are just the "bottom of the vat" PSB's, which in turn are "bottom of the vat"
of whatever passes for high end speakers in Canada.
PSB is a bit overpriced if you consider that Axiom is cheaper, but I can't preach.
I bought an Integra receiver knowing there wasn't much difference between it and
an Onkyo. Not much difference between a crown vic and a Mercury Marqui either.
The difference with me is I KNOW what games marketing types play, in order to gloss
over the plans laid out by manufacturing engineers, who contract out with
a manufacturer, and quite often a lot of stuff comes out of the same place,
just with different names.
You should have bought Axioms. Your speakers would have sounded just as bad
but you could have saved some money.
Or maybe get some of those new bargain line of B&w, which are now made in China
dang it all
The descendents of my great DM305 floorstanders in other words

[PeruvianSkies]

I'm not blaming you for anything except for being obnoxious.
And there is no "Canadian speaker industry", a Canadian speaker CABINET industry maybe, as most subcontract out their drivers.
I have a friend who has a pair of axiom towers, they sound a lot like PSB.
You know where Milwalkee best beer comes from? Made by miller beer.
The Miller comes from the top of the vat, "best" comes from the bottom.
Same for Keystone, made by Coors.
Axioms are just the "bottom of the vat" PSB's, which in turn are "bottom of the vat"
of whatever passes for high end speakers in Canada.
PSB is a bit overpriced if you consider that Axiom is cheaper, but I can't preach.
I bought an Integra receiver knowing there wasn't much difference between it and
an Onkyo. Not much difference between a crown vic and a Mercury Marqui either.
The difference with me is I KNOW what games marketing types play, in order to gloss
over the plans laid out by manufacturing engineers, who contract out with
a manufacturer, and quite often a lot of stuff comes out of the same place,
just with different names.
You should have bought Axioms. Your speakers would have sounded just as bad
but you could have saved some money.
Or maybe get some of those new bargain line of B&w, which are now made in China
dang it all
The descendents of my great DM305 floorstanders in other words

So when did you hear PSB Platinum speakers before?

[PeruvianSkies]

These two things are NOT equal by any means.

[GMichael]

I'm not blaming you for anything except for being obnoxious.
And there is no "Canadian speaker industry", a Canadian speaker CABINET industry maybe, as most subcontract out their drivers.
I have a friend who has a pair of axiom towers, they sound a lot like PSB.
You know where Milwalkee best beer comes from? Made by miller beer.
The Miller comes from the top of the vat, "best" comes from the bottom.
Same for Keystone, made by Coors.
Axioms are just the "bottom of the vat" PSB's, which in turn are "bottom of the vat"
of whatever passes for high end speakers in Canada.
PSB is a bit overpriced if you consider that Axiom is cheaper, but I can't preach.
I bought an Integra receiver knowing there wasn't much difference between it and
an Onkyo. Not much difference between a crown vic and a Mercury Marqui either.
The difference with me is I KNOW what games marketing types play, in order to gloss
over the plans laid out by manufacturing engineers, who contract out with
a manufacturer, and quite often a lot of stuff comes out of the same place,
just with different names.
You should have bought Axioms. Your speakers would have sounded just as bad
but you could have saved some money.
Or maybe get some of those new bargain line of B&w, which are now made in China
dang it all
The descendents of my great DM305 floorstanders in other words

You so remind me of our "color me gone" buddy RL. I'm going to need another sarcasm detector.

[Feanor]

I'm not blaming you for anything except for being obnoxious.
And there is no "Canadian speaker industry", a Canadian speaker CABINET industry maybe, as most subcontract out their drivers.
...

Of course it's fair to say that most speaker makers everywhere obtain their drivers from specialized manufactureres, (e.g. ScanSpeak, Focal, Acuton, Morel, Eton). But there's no reason to single out Canadian speaker makers. Paradigm, for example, makes all its own drivers. Off hand I'm not sure about PSB.

On the other hand, soon more or less everything in the entire world will be made in China even if, (for a while), product continues to be designed elsewhere. PSB's low end lines, at least, are made in China; not sure about the Platinums.

[Mr Peabody]

Paradigm is Canadian, they say they build their own drivers and parts. Well, of course, they claim to have been voted #1 for 17 years too.

Another thing to keep in mind, even though more than one brand comes out of the same door, don't necessarily make them the same. Manufacturers may build for several brands but have specs they have to build to. I'd say this is especially so for driver manufacturers as different brands have different cabinets, volume, sensitivity etc that they strive for.

In case anyone new was to read our threads, let's try to respond with at least some information to counter with. Or else, we all may look like a bunch of pre-schoolers.

Oh Yeah?! My dad can beat up your dad!

[GMichael]

Oh Yeah?! My dad can beat up your dad!

But mine can fart louder.

[pixelthis]

Paradigm is Canadian, they say they build their own drivers and parts. Well, of course, they claim to have been voted #1 for 17 years too.

Another thing to keep in mind, even though more than one brand comes out of the same door, don't necessarily make them the same. Manufacturers may build for several brands but have specs they have to build to. I'd say this is especially so for driver manufacturers as different brands have different cabinets, volume, sensitivity etc that they strive for.

In case anyone new was to read our threads, let's try to respond with at least some information to counter with. Or else, we all may look like a bunch of pre-schoolers.

Oh Yeah?! My dad can beat up your dad!
Sure, when speaker makers contract out their drivers they are always to spec.
And nothing wrong with this, indeed it may mean that some with great ideas can turn
out a speaker with miminal resources.
Axiom has a picture of their "plant", no way can they be building their drivers.
As for the diff between psb and axiom, and paradigm, well, if a Chevy looked
like a Caddy would you buy the Caddy?
I just love pullin your chain , skier, you have no sense of humour whatsoever.
Anyway this is the wave of the future, B&W is building their current economy speaker
(199 a pr) in China for gods sakes( they used to get the drivers for their 300 series from Dynaudio I beleive, which aint half bad).
I have a pair of dm305's, and hate to think they are the end of the line for really cheap english speakers.
Anyway I saw an ad for some PSB floorstanders for about 1500 bucks and I must admit they did look nice(audio liquidators or some such)
And a friend has the axiom M80(their top of the line floorstanders) and really, they are nothing to be ashamed of, although I dont like doubling the driver complement as
you will get some frequency cancelation there every once in awhile

[pixelthis]

These two things are NOT equal by any means.
And if you'll take time to notice the driver complement and dimensions arent really that different.
My buddy stained his a darker shade to match his furiture.
Yep, thats real wood veneer

[PeruvianSkies]

And if you'll take time to notice the driver complement and dimensions arent really that different.
My buddy stained his a darker shade to match his furiture.
Yep, thats real wood veneer

What is the color on your imaginary B&W's? You know the ones that you are driving with an Integra receiver yet give Rich flack for driving his B&W's with a receiver.

I do have a sense of humor...I just don't find trolls funny.

[pixelthis]

What is the color on your imaginary B&W's? You know the ones that you are driving with an Integra receiver yet give Rich flack for driving his B&W's with a receiver.

I do have a sense of humor...I just don't find trolls funny.
I don't have any imaginary ones.
I do have a set of black 600 series, about six years old, I have posted reviews of all in the review section under various names.
And if anything these dont quite measure up to my receiver, although the sound coming from them is quite pleasant.
My receiver is a DTR 7.4 btw, about three years old. At least you cant tell if the knobs
are plastic, like you can when you shine the light on your pioneer.(everything on the front is brushed aluminum)
And comparing my speakers to rich's is quite rediculous, I have about 1200$ in my current setup plus the sub, driving them with a 1200$ receiver seems quite credible.
But rich has several thousand in his speakers, the center alone is almost as much as my entire complement put together, to drive such a set of speakers with a receiver like a yamaha htr is a real waste of resources. I was just pointing that out, mostly by making a joke, sorry about your lack of a sense of humour but anybody who disagrees with you
isn't automatically a "troll".
Rich has a "htr" as opposed to an rx model, htrs are sold in department stores and
mail order and the net, RX models tend to be sold in hi-fi shops, etc.
Why is it not a good idea to run such speakers with a cheaper receiver?
Its a waste of resources. Why pay that much for such speakers and run them
with a receiver? Maybe one top of the line, but you can get just as good a sound
from cheaper speakers using this receiver.
Why buy a porsch in the Bahamas when the speed limit is 20 mph?
Ego gratification?
Even though its too late now, even though the resale of B&W in quite high (apair of CDM1'
bookshelves recently went for 980 on Ebay, retailed for 1200 new) you wont save anything by selling them and buying a cheaper set, so the sensible thing wouold be to get some decent amplication, hook it up to your HTR and improve your system a little.
Maybe something by outlaw or something. Why pay that much for such speakers if you wont get any use outta them?
B&W is nortorious for their inefficent speakers, you need some high current amplication
to drive them properly. I hate an unbalanced system is all.
Which is why I dont have such speakers, I cant afford the horsepower to drive them properly, or the high end input devices to hook to that horsepower.
My "economy " beemers are probably best for my lower priced system,
which incidently includes exactly the same dvd player you have.
All this plays to the point of having a balanced system, the only time you need a higher line product is when its the first stage in an upgrade path.
Basically its all about having a balanced system, this saves money and sounds
better usually. Hope this explains it for you, as you obviously dont understand
such "system 101" basics, the basics of building a well rounded system where no part is a waste of money because of its wasted talents:cornut:

[PeruvianSkies]

And if you'll take time to notice the driver complement and dimensions arent really that different.
My buddy stained his a darker shade to match his furiture.
Yep, thats real wood veneer

So you are basing your decision on what they LOOK like and their CONFIGURATION? Yeah, that's the way to really judge speakers. Just because a set of PSB's look like the many of thousands of other speakers out there is no indication of what they sound like. ProAc and Totem make speakers that aren't that 'special' looking in their design, but both sound phenomenal, even if Totem is made in Canada...right? If you actually understood the design, technology, and development behind PSB speakers you would understand why they half left a nice imprint on the industry for the past 30 years. Don't judge their sound on their prices because it won't make sense. Until the Platinum's arrived you could get everything they offered for 2K or under, which is mind blowing. The Platinum's are light years ahead of what the company offered prior to that as well, it's a new benchmark and if you actually get to hear them one day you would understand that too.

There are no Axioms!

[pixelthis]

So you are basing your decision on what they LOOK like and their CONFIGURATION? Yeah, that's the way to really judge speakers. Just because a set of PSB's look like the many of thousands of other speakers out there is no indication of what they sound like. ProAc and Totem make speakers that aren't that 'special' looking in their design, but both sound phenomenal, even if Totem is made in Canada...right? If you actually understood the design, technology, and development behind PSB speakers you would understand why they half left a nice imprint on the industry for the past 30 years. Don't judge their sound on their prices because it won't make sense. Until the Platinum's arrived you could get everything they offered for 2K or under, which is mind blowing. The Platinum's are light years ahead of what the company offered prior to that as well, it's a new benchmark and if you actually get to hear them one day you would understand that too.

There are no Axioms!
Well, what is that canadian plant turning out?
There are no "new benchmarks" actually, most speaker tech is decades old, theres' nothing new under the sun.
AND as much as I hate this (chews his big toe off) I apologise because you have obviously
misunderstood me.
The axioms and psb models you showed me are basicaly the same, dual bass, mid, and treble drivers, the only real difference being that one of the Psb drivers in the midrange is bigger, and the Psb does use a better tweeter than the titanium ones on the Axioms.
But both are obviously based on the same design, which probably came out of the government subsidized lab that they have in Canada now, and that a lot of the speaker
companies use up there now.
Ones a CHEVY, ones a PONTIAC, and I would guess that paradigm has a similar
model, which would be the CADILLAC.
And nothing wrong with that, I drove a volkswagen, which is the chevy of germany.
But please dont think that there is anything new under the sun as far as speakers
are concerned, there are a few new designs out there but neither you or I could
afford them.
Basically its "musical" drivers (moving them around), redesigning new cabinets and marketing.
Unless you move "upscale" you basically get nothing new in a speaker these days,
you just have to pick which company you think does the best job of restating the same basic designs, and in your case, which gives away the best ink pen and coffetable book:1:

[Mr Peabody]

You're probably right that there isn't a lot new as far as enclosures go but speaker technology has progressed. The progression is in the driver and parts build and quality. Also, it matters a lot the quality of the cabinet, you'd be surprised and how much the internal bracing matters. Do you know that I can crank my Dyn's up to a very loud level and place my hand on top of the cabinet and feel no vibration? How many speakers can you do that with?

Until getting acquainted with Dynaudio I did not believe that the level of high quality bass response could be gotten from a 6" driver. They totally changed my way of thinking on speakers. They use an interesting crossover on the Evidence series. The crossover some how detects what frequencies are in the signal and if a driver is not needed, it doesn't allow it to turn on. For instance, if the song is totally acoustic and no very low end, the low end driver won't receive any signal. This is how it worked in the beginning but I haven't gone back to read their literature in quite a while, since these speakers are far out of my reach unless I hit the Power Ball.

You can't go by the driver configuration because all manufacturer's do generally the same thing, you have a 6" 2-way, the still a 2-way, but two 6" drivers, and maybe some where up the line they will add a midrange or larger woofer.

I know nothing of Axiom or PSB but you also can't say speakers are the same because they come out of the same factory. Harmon America used to build JBL, Infinity and maybe others in the same factory. JBL and Infinity are nothing a like. Harmon relocated, at least the business end to the East coast, I don't know if they still operate their massive complex in California or not. Now they are probably all made in China, or worse.

[kexodusc]

Well, what is that canadian plant turning out?
There are no "new benchmarks" actually, most speaker tech is decades old, theres' nothing new under the sun.

Driver consistency, quality, performance, and cost have all improved for the better in the last decade - dramatically so at lower price points. Overall production costs are down too.
Speaker technology has made significant gains as well in cabinet and crossover modelling. Particularly crossover modelling. An awful lot of R&D and trial and error costs are eliminated, and not passed on to the consumer these days.

You can buy a $200 speaker today and put it beside some considerably more costly speakers from 1999 even and it won't be out of place. Yesterday's mid-fi struggles to keep up with a lot of today's entry-level stuff.

[bobsticks]

And comparing my speakers to rich's is quite rediculous, I have about 1200$ in my current setup plus the sub, driving them with a 1200$ receiver seems quite credible.
But rich has several thousand in his speakers, the center alone is almost as much as my entire complement put together, to drive such a set of speakers with a receiver like a yamaha htr is a real waste of resources. I was just pointing that out, mostly by making a joke, sorry about your lack of a sense of humour but anybody who disagrees with you
isn't automatically a "troll".
Rich has a "htr" as opposed to an rx model, htrs are sold in department stores and
mail order and the net, RX models tend to be sold in hi-fi shops, etc.
Why is it not a good idea to run such speakers with a cheaper receiver?
Its a waste of resources. Why pay that much for such speakers and run them
with a receiver? Maybe one top of the line, but you can get just as good a sound
from cheaper speakers using this receiver.
:

Pix does bring up a good point that I might have stated, albeit less contentiously.

Rich has got some great speakers down there deep in the heart of. My own experience was, except for speaker upgrades, adding an external amp gave the greatest quantifiable benefit to my sounds. Imagine with the increased slam/dynamics and presence how those bad boys could sing. B&Ws definetly can be improved with some serious current.

Just somethin' to think about.

[PeruvianSkies]

Well, what is that canadian plant turning out?
There are no "new benchmarks" actually, most speaker tech is decades old, theres' nothing new under the sun.
AND as much as I hate this (chews his big toe off) I apologise because you have obviously
misunderstood me.
The axioms and psb models you showed me are basicaly the same, dual bass, mid, and treble drivers, the only real difference being that one of the Psb drivers in the midrange is bigger, and the Psb does use a better tweeter than the titanium ones on the Axioms.
But both are obviously based on the same design, which probably came out of the government subsidized lab that they have in Canada now, and that a lot of the speaker
companies use up there now.
Ones a CHEVY, ones a PONTIAC, and I would guess that paradigm has a similar
model, which would be the CADILLAC.
And nothing wrong with that, I drove a volkswagen, which is the chevy of germany.
But please dont think that there is anything new under the sun as far as speakers
are concerned, there are a few new designs out there but neither you or I could
afford them.
Basically its "musical" drivers (moving them around), redesigning new cabinets and marketing.
Unless you move "upscale" you basically get nothing new in a speaker these days,
you just have to pick which company you think does the best job of restating the same basic designs, and in your case, which gives away the best ink pen and coffetable book:1:

After reading this I feel sorry for you. You just don't 'get it'. Maybe one day you will.

[PeruvianSkies]

Pix does bring up a good point that I might have stated, albeit less contentiously.

Rich has got some great speakers down there deep in the heart of. My own experience was, except for speaker upgrades, adding an external amp gave the greatest quantifiable benefit to my sounds. Imagine with the increased slam/dynamics and presence how those bad boys could sing. B&Ws definetly can be improved with some serious current.

Just somethin' to think about.

I am not arguing the fact that adding some amps will help the B&W's, that's not my position in this debate. I know for a fact that driving them with amps would increase the results, but ... it's not OUR setup to decide this, it's Rich's and maybe (without assuming anything) he will do that one day, some of us are on a progessive track to improve things over time and when funds are available. I think it was smart for Rich to get good speakers first and then perhaps over time he will continue by experimenting with different ways to drive them. For now, if he is satisfied than it's really not our call what he does or doesn't do. Recommending an improvement is different from bashing someone for not doing what we think that they should do, I was sticking up for Rich, cause he's my homeboy.